WEBVTT - Putting Carbon Back Into the Ground 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:22.956 Pushkin. So the part we already know is this, we 0:00:23.076 --> 0:00:25.516 need to stop taking carbon that's stored in the ground 0:00:25.596 --> 0:00:28.316 and putting it into the air. We need more solar 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:33.636 power and wind power and batteries and electric vehicles. But 0:00:33.636 --> 0:00:37.476 but it's pretty clear at this point that all that 0:00:37.636 --> 0:00:39.956 is not going to be enough. We are not going 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:42.836 to be able to decarbonize fast enough to avoid a 0:00:42.876 --> 0:00:46.316 really bad climate outcome. At some point we're going to 0:00:46.396 --> 0:00:53.036 have to figure out how to do more. I'm Jacob 0:00:53.036 --> 0:00:55.556 Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where 0:00:55.676 --> 0:00:58.116 entrepreneurs and engineers talk about how they're going to change 0:00:58.156 --> 0:01:01.036 the world once they solve a few problems. My guest 0:01:01.116 --> 0:01:04.396 today is Shaun Kinetic is the co founder and chief 0:01:04.396 --> 0:01:09.836 scientist at a company called Charm Industrial. Charm is finding 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:12.916 climate change in a giant but kind of overlooked corner 0:01:12.956 --> 0:01:17.756 of the account, agriculture. Shaun's problem is this, how do 0:01:17.796 --> 0:01:21.396 you put billions of tons of carbon back into the ground. 0:01:24.996 --> 0:01:30.916 So think about giant industrial farms, fields of corn and 0:01:31.036 --> 0:01:35.116 wheat and soybeans absorb billions of tons of carbon dioxide 0:01:35.156 --> 0:01:38.036 from the air every year when they grow. So far, 0:01:38.156 --> 0:01:42.036 so good, But then once the crops are harvested, the 0:01:42.156 --> 0:01:44.956 leaves and the stalks decompose, and they send a lot 0:01:44.996 --> 0:01:49.276 of that carbon back up into the atmosphere. Damn. What 0:01:49.356 --> 0:01:52.316 Shaun's company, Charm is trying to do is grab that 0:01:52.396 --> 0:01:55.956 carbon before it goes back into the air. To do that, 0:01:56.236 --> 0:01:58.996 they go out into the fields after the harvest, chop 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:02.116 the leaves and stalks up into tiny pieces, and heat 0:02:02.156 --> 0:02:06.156 those pieces up super fast to around a thousand degrees fahrenheit. 0:02:06.596 --> 0:02:08.996 This turns the carbon in the plants into this thick, 0:02:09.316 --> 0:02:14.236 oily substance called biooil. Then Sean and his colleagues stick 0:02:14.276 --> 0:02:17.916 that biooil back into the ground where it stays more 0:02:17.996 --> 0:02:22.036 or less forever. It's a complicated process, and right now 0:02:22.116 --> 0:02:24.436 the company is trying to build the machinery that will 0:02:24.476 --> 0:02:27.676 make all this happen. To start with, Sean gave me 0:02:27.836 --> 0:02:30.036 the dream version of how it's all going to work. 0:02:30.556 --> 0:02:32.916 A giant piece of farm equipment that will roll onto 0:02:32.916 --> 0:02:35.716 the field and it will pick up portions of what 0:02:35.796 --> 0:02:39.716 are left over in the field as agricultural waste, and 0:02:39.716 --> 0:02:43.196 it will process that into oil and offloaded into a tanker. 0:02:43.356 --> 0:02:47.436 And our entire built world is designed around moving oil. 0:02:47.636 --> 0:02:50.996 And so the infrastructure already exists and know how already exists. 0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:53.916 Once we generate this oil, then we can move that 0:02:54.076 --> 0:02:56.996 into the network that already exists to get that oil 0:02:57.476 --> 0:03:01.996 removed from our biosphere. So that's the dream, but Sean 0:03:02.036 --> 0:03:04.156 and his colleagues have to solve a lot of problems 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:06.196 to get there. They don't yet have a machine that 0:03:06.196 --> 0:03:08.276 can drive around the field on its own. They have 0:03:08.316 --> 0:03:11.556 a couple big stationary machines designed to sit at the 0:03:11.676 --> 0:03:14.556 edge of the field, and early this year they shipped 0:03:14.556 --> 0:03:16.916 those machines out from their headquarters in the Bay Area 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:19.636 for their first big test. A lot of things went wrong, 0:03:19.796 --> 0:03:22.476 but that was kind of the point. It was two 0:03:22.516 --> 0:03:25.996 semi trailers. One was for biomass preparation. It was just 0:03:26.036 --> 0:03:29.036 about getting the bales down to the sawdust that we 0:03:29.036 --> 0:03:31.276 need to feed into the machine effectively, okay. And then 0:03:31.316 --> 0:03:34.676 the other shipping container was just the machine itself for 0:03:34.796 --> 0:03:37.796 producing the bioil. And so they were both up on trailers. 0:03:37.796 --> 0:03:40.196 Trucks came in, picked them up, we waved them out, okay, 0:03:40.396 --> 0:03:44.156 and then we met them in Kansas. And so did 0:03:44.236 --> 0:03:46.516 you in fact get on a plane and like drive 0:03:46.556 --> 0:03:48.716 out to the farm and watch the truck pull in 0:03:48.756 --> 0:03:53.316 with your containers full of machinery. We thought we would 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:54.676 be there to watch the truck pull in, but it 0:03:54.676 --> 0:03:58.316 turns out that interstate trucking is way faster than we anticipated, 0:03:58.876 --> 0:04:01.796 so it got there before we did. You should have 0:04:01.836 --> 0:04:04.396 just rode a log in the truck, now, it would 0:04:04.436 --> 0:04:07.676 have been the best way. We Actually, my partner and 0:04:07.716 --> 0:04:10.916 I were driving out to chase it and we ended 0:04:10.996 --> 0:04:14.956 up getting stuck by a blizzard in Utah and the 0:04:14.996 --> 0:04:18.076 truck just went through fine. So it was it was 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:20.076 quite the adventure to get there. And then once we 0:04:20.116 --> 0:04:22.996 got there, it turns out that what we were trying 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:24.836 to do with this was learned about the deployment. We 0:04:24.836 --> 0:04:26.596 were trying to learn about what it takes to operate 0:04:26.636 --> 0:04:29.676 this machine machine actually on the field edge, away from 0:04:29.676 --> 0:04:32.836 our machine shop, away from our cat stations, Like what 0:04:32.876 --> 0:04:35.476 does it take to really be in an RV on 0:04:35.516 --> 0:04:39.596 the side of the field running this massive thing we 0:04:39.636 --> 0:04:41.556 had built. We had to bring all of our tools 0:04:41.556 --> 0:04:43.356 with us, we had to bring all of our spares. 0:04:43.396 --> 0:04:46.356 We had just an enormous amount of infrastructure that we 0:04:46.396 --> 0:04:48.516 had put in place to be ready to run. And 0:04:49.316 --> 0:04:51.676 I mean fundamentally, I think we forgot about winter as 0:04:51.676 --> 0:04:53.996 a concept, and so that that was the first mistake. 0:04:54.236 --> 0:04:57.876 We had spent too long in California. Yeah, that's a 0:04:57.956 --> 0:05:01.716 that's a big problem. We got there and our air 0:05:01.796 --> 0:05:03.756 compressor was like no, no, no no, it's too cold for 0:05:03.796 --> 0:05:06.916 me to start, and we're like, oh, so, like it 0:05:06.956 --> 0:05:11.156 begins with that, and then our nitrogen plan it had 0:05:11.316 --> 0:05:14.476 basically a water removal system on it that froze solid. 0:05:14.556 --> 0:05:18.276 We had there's ice building up, we got snow on 0:05:18.316 --> 0:05:23.036 the machine. We had ingress of water into all different 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:27.596 pieces that we hadn't expected after running our prototype basically 0:05:27.716 --> 0:05:31.916 in the Bay Area, which is namely doesn't have winter. 0:05:32.596 --> 0:05:36.396 So it was it was these little things that were like, 0:05:36.436 --> 0:05:38.876 of course we were thinking about this when we were designing. 0:05:38.876 --> 0:05:41.156 We knew the conditions that would be in Kansas, but 0:05:41.196 --> 0:05:45.956 when you're there in negative ten degree weather with whipping 0:05:45.996 --> 0:05:49.556 wind on a machine trying to remove a component, it 0:05:49.716 --> 0:05:54.196 is just an entirely different experience to be there. And 0:05:54.316 --> 0:05:55.716 I think that was what we were trying to show 0:05:55.756 --> 0:05:59.276 our team was it wasn't about getting the first prototype 0:05:59.316 --> 0:06:01.676 up and running perfectly. It was about doing each step 0:06:01.716 --> 0:06:04.436 of our process verifying it end to end, and we 0:06:04.556 --> 0:06:08.676 learned so much in that and so we were Yeah, 0:06:08.676 --> 0:06:11.036 we were learning every day, and the team was getting 0:06:11.036 --> 0:06:12.716 back and we were all cooking dinner for each other, 0:06:12.996 --> 0:06:16.436 and really there was a sense of like camaraderie and 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:19.716 adventure I think among the team, and I mean I 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:22.556 like the camaraderian adventure. How much of that is like 0:06:22.596 --> 0:06:25.436 the retrospective warm glow. How much at the time was 0:06:25.476 --> 0:06:29.476 oh my god, this isn't going to work. The adventure 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:33.036 was real in the first I think couple deployments, and 0:06:33.076 --> 0:06:38.956 then the darkness set in, probably in February and March. 0:06:39.036 --> 0:06:41.556 There was a tornado nearby. We had all sorts of 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:44.996 exciting things happening in Kansas that were, you know, not 0:06:45.876 --> 0:06:49.836 abnormal for Kansas. Let me ask you a simple question like, 0:06:49.996 --> 0:06:53.756 and I know, working not working is not entirely binary, right, 0:06:53.796 --> 0:06:55.756 It's like how efficient is it? How long does it take? 0:06:55.756 --> 0:06:57.836 But how long did it take for it to work? 0:06:59.996 --> 0:07:03.956 We were up and running probably about a month after 0:07:03.996 --> 0:07:06.276 we got to Kansas. We got the machine up and running. 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:08.756 It ran its first what we call hot flow, where 0:07:08.756 --> 0:07:11.916 it was getting material through the machine, and so that 0:07:11.916 --> 0:07:13.636 that was when it was like, all right, we're here, 0:07:13.836 --> 0:07:16.676 it's working. Now we have to try to optimize each 0:07:16.756 --> 0:07:19.476 part of it. And so we were basically every time 0:07:19.476 --> 0:07:21.116 we would run the machine, we'd be like, Okay, well, 0:07:21.156 --> 0:07:22.716 here's something that's not working as well as we'd like 0:07:22.716 --> 0:07:26.036 it to. What can we put in place so that 0:07:26.076 --> 0:07:27.716 it will run longer for the next time or that 0:07:27.756 --> 0:07:30.636 we'll run more efficiently the next time, And so we 0:07:30.636 --> 0:07:35.276 were constantly trying to basically upgrade the machine. That's what 0:07:35.876 --> 0:07:38.196 my partner Kelly and I at charm do is we 0:07:38.316 --> 0:07:41.796 lead the sort of rapid iteration of the hardware, and 0:07:41.836 --> 0:07:43.876 so that's what we were trying to build. In a way, 0:07:43.956 --> 0:07:47.236 it's like the way people make software, right like you're 0:07:47.276 --> 0:07:51.036 doing the minimum viable chemical reactor that can sit on 0:07:51.036 --> 0:07:53.956 a field in Kansas and then trying to iterate, right Like, 0:07:54.036 --> 0:07:57.236 that's basically what's happening exactly. Kelly and I were at 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:01.876 a company called Planet where we were working on the 0:08:01.996 --> 0:08:05.396 Dove satellite. We had Will Marshall on the show Shout 0:08:05.436 --> 0:08:08.956 Out Planet, Yeah, shout out to Plant, and I heard 0:08:09.116 --> 0:08:10.956 All talking about this on the show as well, where 0:08:11.036 --> 0:08:13.876 he mentioned the sort of like ten to twenty percent 0:08:13.916 --> 0:08:16.836 target failure rate of the satellite, and so we were 0:08:16.916 --> 0:08:19.956 constantly trying to get new features in and get new 0:08:19.956 --> 0:08:24.956 functionality in and always pushing that envelope. This is interesting. 0:08:24.996 --> 0:08:30.116 So the satellite industry is a model, right, it's the 0:08:30.156 --> 0:08:32.436 story you're telling. It's the same story that people like 0:08:32.436 --> 0:08:35.396 like Will Marshall from Planet tells of like coming into 0:08:35.396 --> 0:08:39.556 this industry that has been slow to evolve, where things 0:08:39.556 --> 0:08:42.996 are very expensive, they're manufactured to be perfect, and they're 0:08:43.036 --> 0:08:47.516 super expensive, and you're trying to to do the opposite 0:08:47.516 --> 0:08:52.036 to make things cheaper and faster and better. Right exactly, 0:08:52.196 --> 0:08:55.396 we say, all right, before we turn it on again, 0:08:55.476 --> 0:08:56.836 what are we going to upgrade? What are we going 0:08:56.876 --> 0:08:58.996 to fix? How are we going to move towards our goals. 0:08:59.436 --> 0:09:01.236 Let's go back to Kansas for a second. I feel 0:09:01.236 --> 0:09:04.796 like like I want to sort of finish that story. Right. 0:09:04.796 --> 0:09:09.276 So you're there, you're iterating, you're fixing, you're building, And 0:09:09.396 --> 0:09:13.516 so did you infect do the whole process for real 0:09:13.636 --> 0:09:17.316 with this machine in Kansas? Yeah, we produced bioil with 0:09:17.356 --> 0:09:21.396 our machine in Kansas, and we took in a cornstover 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:25.796 bail and processed it through to bioil. And did we 0:09:25.836 --> 0:09:29.916 process the entire two million pounds of biomass that we 0:09:29.996 --> 0:09:32.156 had like staged in the background, and the event that 0:09:32.196 --> 0:09:34.556 we were running at ten tons per day at full rate, 0:09:34.916 --> 0:09:37.836 No the machine. I think we operated at peak of 0:09:37.876 --> 0:09:40.916 about three and a half tons per day. One less 0:09:40.996 --> 0:09:43.156 detail about what actually happened. There's what'd you do with 0:09:43.196 --> 0:09:45.676 all the oil you got from the cornstover? We put 0:09:45.716 --> 0:09:50.516 it back underground where in wells in Kansas? Tell me 0:09:50.556 --> 0:09:53.196 about the oil that you get out of agricultural waste? Like, 0:09:53.196 --> 0:09:56.196 what is it like? Is it like the oil it 0:09:56.196 --> 0:09:59.036 comes out of the ground, Like it is like oil 0:09:59.236 --> 0:10:02.356 in name only? Unfortunately, you know, if you've ever had 0:10:02.476 --> 0:10:06.716 fake wood smoke flavoring, that is bioil. It's the exact 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:09.796 same stuff. It's used as a mo food additive. That's it. 0:10:10.316 --> 0:10:13.436 We make liquid smoke under a different brand name, obviously. 0:10:14.916 --> 0:10:18.476 And can you so it smells kind of nice, maybe 0:10:18.516 --> 0:10:22.316 a little strong, but like kind of sweet smoky sweet. Mm. Yeah, 0:10:22.396 --> 0:10:24.196 it smells like a camp fire. I mean that's the 0:10:24.236 --> 0:10:27.116 smell of it. Can you taste it? Have you tasted it? 0:10:27.916 --> 0:10:31.676 I wouldn't taste our stuff. It's I mean, basically I 0:10:32.076 --> 0:10:35.116 actually have lost the taste for fake wood smoke flavor 0:10:35.156 --> 0:10:38.076 as well. I can taste it in food, and I'm 0:10:38.076 --> 0:10:41.556 just like, no, I don't want this, so it is um. 0:10:42.116 --> 0:10:45.156 I mean, I don't want to sugarcoat the like I 0:10:45.156 --> 0:10:46.956 don't think anyone should go out and drink this stuff 0:10:46.956 --> 0:10:48.316 in the same way that I don't think people should 0:10:48.316 --> 0:10:50.796 go and drink and be around crude oil. It is 0:10:50.916 --> 0:10:54.836 a messy, dirty substance, and so I think that the 0:10:55.636 --> 0:10:57.676 we we sort of look at charm in the way 0:10:57.676 --> 0:11:02.916 that it took this, you know, gross oily industry to 0:11:02.956 --> 0:11:04.436 get us into this mess, and I think it's going 0:11:04.476 --> 0:11:06.436 to take a little bit of a gross oil industry 0:11:06.436 --> 0:11:09.556 to get us out. Is it sketchy and jet oil 0:11:09.596 --> 0:11:11.836 into the ground, It sounds like it could be sketchy. 0:11:12.396 --> 0:11:17.196 There are absolutely risks with injecting anything underground, and I 0:11:17.236 --> 0:11:21.636 think that the ways that you mitigate that are through 0:11:21.796 --> 0:11:26.116 careful analysis. You look at at the confining layers, and 0:11:26.156 --> 0:11:29.156 you look at formations of previously held oiling gas. The 0:11:29.156 --> 0:11:31.756 Premium basin held oiling gas for three hundred million years, 0:11:32.396 --> 0:11:37.596 so there are confining formations where the injection of oil 0:11:37.716 --> 0:11:41.836 will maintain within that formation or within specific well types 0:11:41.876 --> 0:11:46.196 that are held there, but most of the hazardous chemicals 0:11:46.236 --> 0:11:49.636 or anything else that this civilization generates is disposed of 0:11:49.676 --> 0:11:52.796 in these deep, underground injection wells. It's weird. I'm thinking 0:11:52.836 --> 0:11:54.796 normally at this part of the interview, I'm like, tell 0:11:54.836 --> 0:11:56.716 me one problem you're trying to solve. But I feel 0:11:56.716 --> 0:11:59.276 like you have too many problems, right like we have. 0:11:59.356 --> 0:12:03.876 So yeah, that's the wonderful thing about startups is you 0:12:03.916 --> 0:12:09.596 have usually considerably or considerably more problems than people. And 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:11.596 I think that's always the space where I enjoy to 0:12:11.636 --> 0:12:14.636 operate is at a But I feel like you're really 0:12:14.916 --> 0:12:16.276 I mean, it's true for a lot of stimes, but 0:12:16.396 --> 0:12:18.916 it's really true for you, right Like, I feel like 0:12:19.716 --> 0:12:21.876 you guys are so early, and it's so hard what 0:12:21.876 --> 0:12:23.796 you're trying to do, and it's so physical, and there's 0:12:23.836 --> 0:12:27.356 so many things that you have to optimize so much 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:30.396 more than they are now. No, or am I underestimating 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:33.796 you somehow? I think there are solutions in each of 0:12:33.796 --> 0:12:36.876 these spaces. So there's solutions for char removal, there's solutions 0:12:36.876 --> 0:12:41.556 for oil condensation, there's solutions at each of the interfaces 0:12:41.556 --> 0:12:43.276 that we're trying to optimize for. And one of the 0:12:43.276 --> 0:12:45.916 things that we know from our prototype is that this 0:12:46.076 --> 0:12:50.196 isn't a scientific problem, right. We don't have to develop 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:54.756 anything novel to solve these problems. It's really an engineering 0:12:54.756 --> 0:12:57.316 problem at each of these interfaces. So I know one 0:12:57.316 --> 0:12:59.636 of the sort of sub problems you're trying to solve 0:12:59.716 --> 0:13:02.836 is how do you power your system? And I know 0:13:02.916 --> 0:13:04.996 you have this idea that you can use the heat 0:13:05.076 --> 0:13:08.596 that you get from processing the cornstocks or whatever the 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:11.916 bioway to actually power most of the work you're doing, 0:13:12.036 --> 0:13:15.356 which is a super elegant idea, but it seems really hard. 0:13:15.676 --> 0:13:18.756 That is a It is a hard thing to do, 0:13:18.836 --> 0:13:22.156 and we're working with some brilliant people in that space 0:13:22.196 --> 0:13:24.556 who have a solution for it. And so I think 0:13:24.556 --> 0:13:28.876 one of the great things about this sort of energy 0:13:28.956 --> 0:13:33.276 renaissance that we're in right now is that we don't 0:13:33.316 --> 0:13:36.116 see charm as being the one solution to the entirety 0:13:36.236 --> 0:13:40.156 of the climate problem, right, And so we are trying 0:13:40.156 --> 0:13:42.716 to work with a couple groups to generate the power 0:13:42.756 --> 0:13:45.956 off of our machine. Because the number one rule of 0:13:45.996 --> 0:13:50.156 engineering is don't if you have a group that already 0:13:50.236 --> 0:13:52.396 is working on this problem and already has a solution 0:13:52.396 --> 0:13:55.396 in the space work with them to help shape that 0:13:55.436 --> 0:13:58.756 into the device that you need for your system. And 0:13:59.036 --> 0:14:01.476 is there in fact somebody who's like, oh, you need 0:14:01.516 --> 0:14:05.476 to get power from heating biomass. Good news, we figured 0:14:05.516 --> 0:14:07.756 out how to do that. Is that the case? Not 0:14:07.836 --> 0:14:09.676 only is that the case, but they're in the Bay 0:14:09.716 --> 0:14:12.516 Area and they are wonderful people. So they were by 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:14.236 the other night for a happy hour and we were 0:14:14.276 --> 0:14:16.916 just like standing by the machine having a beer saying like, 0:14:17.356 --> 0:14:20.436 where should we put this port to properly interface to 0:14:20.476 --> 0:14:22.636 your machine? What is the data that you want from 0:14:22.676 --> 0:14:26.436 this to ensure that we can test this, and how 0:14:26.436 --> 0:14:29.916 can we help you move faster so we can as 0:14:29.916 --> 0:14:34.156 a whole move this industry further along. So that's the 0:14:34.196 --> 0:14:36.996 technical side of how Charm works, or at least the 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:39.796 dream of how it's going to work. But Charm is 0:14:39.796 --> 0:14:44.036 also a business. It's a company with paying customers. After 0:14:44.076 --> 0:14:47.636 the break, what exactly does charm sell and who does 0:14:47.636 --> 0:14:57.276 it sell it to? And now back to my conversation 0:14:57.316 --> 0:15:00.356 with Sean, So it's interesting to think about even like 0:15:00.676 --> 0:15:03.036 what do you sell, Like what is the thing you're 0:15:03.076 --> 0:15:05.876 selling and who are you selling it to? So we 0:15:05.956 --> 0:15:11.316 sell a permanent carbon removal, which is a effectively a 0:15:11.436 --> 0:15:17.716 carbon credit for CO two extracted from the atmosphere. There's 0:15:17.716 --> 0:15:19.436 a few things that are interesting to me there, right. 0:15:19.556 --> 0:15:23.156 One is, you know, so there's this idea of carbon offsets, 0:15:23.276 --> 0:15:26.516 and clearly what you were doing if you can figure 0:15:26.516 --> 0:15:28.916 out how to do it at a reasonable price, right 0:15:30.476 --> 0:15:34.756 is real. Right, you're taking stuff that would have gone 0:15:34.796 --> 0:15:36.796 into the atmosphere's carbon dioxide and putting it in the 0:15:36.876 --> 0:15:40.396 ground approximately forever, for as long as we care about. 0:15:41.636 --> 0:15:45.436 There are other kinds of carbon offsets that seem more 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:47.596 slippery to me, right, Like I have a tree in 0:15:47.636 --> 0:15:49.636 my backyard, if you give me a one hundred bucks, 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:52.716 I won't cut it down, right, Like, which is I 0:15:52.756 --> 0:15:54.676 mean a little bit of a parody. But there there 0:15:54.756 --> 0:15:57.316 is this universe of carbon offsets that have been kind 0:15:57.316 --> 0:16:01.476 of like that, Right, it's like a hostage situation. I 0:16:01.516 --> 0:16:04.316 would hate for something to happen to this forest in 0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:07.876 my backyard, yeah, exactly. And it's like there are and 0:16:07.956 --> 0:16:10.556 I don't want to undercut. Like they're the amazing work 0:16:10.596 --> 0:16:14.156 that some groups are doing for like habitat restoration, and 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:17.196 you know, the co benefits of having these these forestry 0:16:17.236 --> 0:16:20.676 projects and there are like, there are people doing good 0:16:20.716 --> 0:16:23.796 work in the space, but there are also an enormous 0:16:23.836 --> 0:16:27.916 amount of groups that get credits for you know, the 0:16:28.996 --> 0:16:31.596 hunting lodge. The forest on the hunting Lodge is one 0:16:31.636 --> 0:16:34.916 that popped up recently. And like to be clear, a 0:16:34.956 --> 0:16:37.796 forest that nobody was going to cut down, right, somebody's saying, 0:16:37.836 --> 0:16:39.636 give us money and we won't cut it down, exactly, 0:16:39.676 --> 0:16:42.956 A forest that was not at risk. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:16:43.036 --> 0:16:46.796 And there are in the same vein. I have friends 0:16:46.796 --> 0:16:50.476 who are farmers and they get messages that say, we 0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:53.556 are interested in selling carbon credits from your farm. You 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:56.556 may not have to change anything you're doing right now. Yeah, 0:16:56.916 --> 0:17:02.516 And that is just fascinating from a from a market standpoint. 0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:06.636 And so I think that what Charm really tries to 0:17:06.676 --> 0:17:09.756 set ourselves apart on is that our carbon remove is permanent. 0:17:09.876 --> 0:17:13.956 It's permanent, and it's pretty clearly stuff that carbon that 0:17:13.996 --> 0:17:16.836 would go into the atmosphere in the absence of you 0:17:17.356 --> 0:17:19.396 sticking it into your machine and turning it into oil 0:17:19.436 --> 0:17:21.396 and stick it in the ground, right, And it is 0:17:21.476 --> 0:17:25.556 extremely easy to measure. So we can measure every carbon 0:17:25.636 --> 0:17:29.116 atom within that tote of bioil, and we can measure 0:17:29.236 --> 0:17:32.996 exactly how much mass was injected into the well. We 0:17:33.076 --> 0:17:36.156 have a measurable pathway. I think I heard it was 0:17:36.196 --> 0:17:39.236 maybe your co founder say in an interview, like, what 0:17:39.276 --> 0:17:43.756 we're actually selling at some level is measurement, measurement and verification. 0:17:45.076 --> 0:17:47.916 Is that kind of certainty that companies are paying us for. 0:17:47.996 --> 0:17:50.436 I mean, that's like, that's very interesting to me. It's 0:17:50.436 --> 0:17:53.716 a little abstract, but I find it really compelling. Absolutely. 0:17:53.996 --> 0:17:56.676 One of the reasons why Peter was interested in starting 0:17:56.756 --> 0:18:00.356 charm with Us was this idea. Yeah, my co founder, Peter, 0:18:00.436 --> 0:18:04.516 he previously ran an organization called Segment, and at Segment 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:09.036 he was trying to find a way to purchase carbon removals. 0:18:09.196 --> 0:18:14.156 And he is a character who will dig in on 0:18:14.196 --> 0:18:16.236 a problem if he starts to see something a little 0:18:16.236 --> 0:18:18.796 bit strange. And so he started going deeper and deeper 0:18:18.796 --> 0:18:21.276 into these carbon removal projects and was just like, none 0:18:21.316 --> 0:18:25.836 of these seem additional, none of these seem sure they 0:18:25.836 --> 0:18:29.316 have a gold star from this, none of them seem 0:18:29.356 --> 0:18:33.356 a totally legitiate to play organization. Yeah, and so he's like, 0:18:33.476 --> 0:18:37.716 where's the permanent carbon removal? Because the extraction of oil 0:18:37.756 --> 0:18:41.116 and burning it is a permanent carbon addition. Currently, Yeah, 0:18:41.156 --> 0:18:43.436 we are one of a handful of companies that are 0:18:43.436 --> 0:18:46.676 actually offering a permanent removal and that's sort of what 0:18:46.716 --> 0:18:51.076 separates Charm in the industry. So, I mean, it's obviously 0:18:51.116 --> 0:18:54.236 more compelling than somebody who says, I won't chop down 0:18:54.316 --> 0:18:59.756 this tree. It's also at this point just absurdly more expensive. Right. 0:18:59.836 --> 0:19:02.956 It typically doesn't cost much to not chop down a tree. 0:19:04.716 --> 0:19:07.596 It costs a lot now to do what you're doing. Right, 0:19:07.636 --> 0:19:10.276 How much does it cost now and what you need 0:19:10.316 --> 0:19:13.636 to get to for it to be you know, realistic 0:19:13.636 --> 0:19:19.636 at scale? It costs Charm just about six hundred dollars 0:19:19.636 --> 0:19:24.356 per ton of CO two equivalent removed from the atmosphere, 0:19:24.396 --> 0:19:29.796 and that is the current price to remove carbon permanently. 0:19:29.916 --> 0:19:32.996 I just give me some feeling for how much a 0:19:32.996 --> 0:19:36.196 ton of carbon is. How much carbon does one American 0:19:36.836 --> 0:19:40.556 emit in a year? You know, it's about fifteen tons 0:19:41.156 --> 0:19:46.716 per us like average person per year, fifteen per person 0:19:46.756 --> 0:19:49.876 per year, and your cost right now is six hundred 0:19:49.996 --> 0:19:54.196 per per ton per ton. So it's way too expensive 0:19:54.716 --> 0:19:57.156 for now. What you do like, it's it's it's not 0:19:57.236 --> 0:20:02.516 gonna go anywhere at that price, right, but like, presumably 0:20:02.596 --> 0:20:05.996 part of your iterative thing is making it much cheaper 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:09.476 really fast, which is a thing iteration and technol oology 0:20:09.556 --> 0:20:13.836 is good at right. It kind of invented that move exactly. 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:16.476 I think that it's a fair criticism to say it's 0:20:16.476 --> 0:20:19.476 extremely expensive because it is, and that is just the 0:20:19.556 --> 0:20:22.516 cost to deliver it right now. And so the major 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:26.876 price points in that cost are things like the cost 0:20:26.996 --> 0:20:29.316 of bailing and moving that biomass to the side of 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:31.796 the field and all of the labor associated with that, 0:20:31.956 --> 0:20:37.356 the transport of biomass, the fertilizer replacement. If you're removing 0:20:37.356 --> 0:20:39.636 that biomass from the field and you're not leaving back 0:20:39.676 --> 0:20:42.476 those nutrients, the farmers still need to replace that. So 0:20:42.516 --> 0:20:45.276 it's six hundred dollars a ton. Now it's too expensive. 0:20:45.356 --> 0:20:47.716 What do you want to get it too in the 0:20:47.756 --> 0:20:50.876 medium term? What you have a number in your mind, Yeah, 0:20:50.956 --> 0:20:52.956 the medium term, we need to get it below three 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:57.076 hundred dollars per ton, give or take, which is which 0:20:57.116 --> 0:21:00.236 gets us into the non voluntary markets. It's the cap 0:21:00.276 --> 0:21:01.956 and trade in the US, like the way the US 0:21:01.996 --> 0:21:05.716 has decided to so people people in places like California 0:21:05.756 --> 0:21:09.036 and Europe are actually paying three hundred dollars per ton 0:21:09.236 --> 0:21:15.036 now but under various laws. Yeah, so when you think 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:17.916 about cutting your price in half, are there a few 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:22.156 key steps? I think the big thing in the near 0:21:22.276 --> 0:21:27.556 term is reducing the amount of operators and the amount 0:21:27.636 --> 0:21:31.596 of infrastructure needed for these sites. So the big thing 0:21:31.596 --> 0:21:33.716 that we've done from the start a Charm is focused 0:21:33.716 --> 0:21:36.756 on automation, and so we're trying to say from the start, 0:21:36.956 --> 0:21:39.956 what is everything that we need instrumented on this machine 0:21:40.516 --> 0:21:42.796 to be able to control itself, to be able to 0:21:42.836 --> 0:21:45.076 monitor these processes. And in the same way that you 0:21:45.116 --> 0:21:47.596 take a satellite and put it into a safe mode, 0:21:47.636 --> 0:21:50.156 if something goes wrong with this machine, it enters a 0:21:50.156 --> 0:21:52.436 safe state. So, I mean, I know it's like a 0:21:52.476 --> 0:21:54.876 super prototype of basically how many people do you need 0:21:54.956 --> 0:21:59.036 to run it? Now? Currently it takes two operators. We 0:21:59.436 --> 0:22:01.876 really do three because we have someone whose job is 0:22:01.916 --> 0:22:04.596 just to look at data that's streaming off the machine 0:22:04.596 --> 0:22:08.316 and sort of keep an eye on, sort of over 0:22:08.356 --> 0:22:10.956 the shoulder. Want to get it from three down to one? 0:22:11.196 --> 0:22:13.116 I mean, is that the basic idea I think we 0:22:13.156 --> 0:22:14.916 want to get it down to less than one is 0:22:14.956 --> 0:22:18.556 the dream, And so you have maybe a person monitoring 0:22:18.636 --> 0:22:21.276 five or ten of these machines, and your model for 0:22:21.316 --> 0:22:24.516 that is already there. In like modern farm equipment, right, 0:22:24.516 --> 0:22:28.156 there are these giant machines called combines that are highly 0:22:28.156 --> 0:22:31.396 automated and that show up at harvest time every year. Yeah. 0:22:31.436 --> 0:22:33.876 And so when you look at the way that these 0:22:33.916 --> 0:22:37.036 combines are currently used in the field, is a farmer 0:22:37.076 --> 0:22:38.876