1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:22,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. So the part we already know is this, we 2 00:00:23,076 --> 00:00:25,516 Speaker 1: need to stop taking carbon that's stored in the ground 3 00:00:25,596 --> 00:00:28,316 Speaker 1: and putting it into the air. We need more solar 4 00:00:28,356 --> 00:00:33,636 Speaker 1: power and wind power and batteries and electric vehicles. But 5 00:00:33,636 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 1: but it's pretty clear at this point that all that 6 00:00:37,636 --> 00:00:39,956 Speaker 1: is not going to be enough. We are not going 7 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:42,836 Speaker 1: to be able to decarbonize fast enough to avoid a 8 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:46,316 Speaker 1: really bad climate outcome. At some point we're going to 9 00:00:46,396 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: have to figure out how to do more. I'm Jacob 10 00:00:53,036 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where 11 00:00:55,676 --> 00:00:58,116 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and engineers talk about how they're going to change 12 00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 1: the world once they solve a few problems. My guest 13 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: today is Shaun Kinetic is the co founder and chief 14 00:01:04,396 --> 00:01:09,836 Speaker 1: scientist at a company called Charm Industrial. Charm is finding 15 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:12,916 Speaker 1: climate change in a giant but kind of overlooked corner 16 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:17,756 Speaker 1: of the account, agriculture. Shaun's problem is this, how do 17 00:01:17,796 --> 00:01:21,396 Speaker 1: you put billions of tons of carbon back into the ground. 18 00:01:24,996 --> 00:01:30,916 Speaker 1: So think about giant industrial farms, fields of corn and 19 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:35,116 Speaker 1: wheat and soybeans absorb billions of tons of carbon dioxide 20 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:38,036 Speaker 1: from the air every year when they grow. So far, 21 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:42,036 Speaker 1: so good, But then once the crops are harvested, the 22 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:44,956 Speaker 1: leaves and the stalks decompose, and they send a lot 23 00:01:44,996 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: of that carbon back up into the atmosphere. Damn. What 24 00:01:49,356 --> 00:01:52,316 Speaker 1: Shaun's company, Charm is trying to do is grab that 25 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:55,956 Speaker 1: carbon before it goes back into the air. To do that, 26 00:01:56,236 --> 00:01:58,996 Speaker 1: they go out into the fields after the harvest, chop 27 00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:02,116 Speaker 1: the leaves and stalks up into tiny pieces, and heat 28 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:06,156 Speaker 1: those pieces up super fast to around a thousand degrees fahrenheit. 29 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:08,996 Speaker 1: This turns the carbon in the plants into this thick, 30 00:02:09,316 --> 00:02:14,236 Speaker 1: oily substance called biooil. Then Sean and his colleagues stick 31 00:02:14,276 --> 00:02:17,916 Speaker 1: that biooil back into the ground where it stays more 32 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:22,036 Speaker 1: or less forever. It's a complicated process, and right now 33 00:02:22,116 --> 00:02:24,436 Speaker 1: the company is trying to build the machinery that will 34 00:02:24,476 --> 00:02:27,676 Speaker 1: make all this happen. To start with, Sean gave me 35 00:02:27,836 --> 00:02:30,036 Speaker 1: the dream version of how it's all going to work. 36 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:32,916 Speaker 1: A giant piece of farm equipment that will roll onto 37 00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 1: the field and it will pick up portions of what 38 00:02:35,796 --> 00:02:39,716 Speaker 1: are left over in the field as agricultural waste, and 39 00:02:39,716 --> 00:02:43,196 Speaker 1: it will process that into oil and offloaded into a tanker. 40 00:02:43,356 --> 00:02:47,436 Speaker 1: And our entire built world is designed around moving oil. 41 00:02:47,636 --> 00:02:50,996 Speaker 1: And so the infrastructure already exists and know how already exists. 42 00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:53,916 Speaker 1: Once we generate this oil, then we can move that 43 00:02:54,076 --> 00:02:56,996 Speaker 1: into the network that already exists to get that oil 44 00:02:57,476 --> 00:03:01,996 Speaker 1: removed from our biosphere. So that's the dream, but Sean 45 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:04,156 Speaker 1: and his colleagues have to solve a lot of problems 46 00:03:04,156 --> 00:03:06,196 Speaker 1: to get there. They don't yet have a machine that 47 00:03:06,196 --> 00:03:08,276 Speaker 1: can drive around the field on its own. They have 48 00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:11,556 Speaker 1: a couple big stationary machines designed to sit at the 49 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:14,556 Speaker 1: edge of the field, and early this year they shipped 50 00:03:14,556 --> 00:03:16,916 Speaker 1: those machines out from their headquarters in the Bay Area 51 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:19,636 Speaker 1: for their first big test. A lot of things went wrong, 52 00:03:19,796 --> 00:03:22,476 Speaker 1: but that was kind of the point. It was two 53 00:03:22,516 --> 00:03:25,996 Speaker 1: semi trailers. One was for biomass preparation. It was just 54 00:03:26,036 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 1: about getting the bales down to the sawdust that we 55 00:03:29,036 --> 00:03:31,276 Speaker 1: need to feed into the machine effectively, okay. And then 56 00:03:31,316 --> 00:03:34,676 Speaker 1: the other shipping container was just the machine itself for 57 00:03:34,796 --> 00:03:37,796 Speaker 1: producing the bioil. And so they were both up on trailers. 58 00:03:37,796 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 1: Trucks came in, picked them up, we waved them out, okay, 59 00:03:40,396 --> 00:03:44,156 Speaker 1: and then we met them in Kansas. And so did 60 00:03:44,236 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 1: you in fact get on a plane and like drive 61 00:03:46,556 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: out to the farm and watch the truck pull in 62 00:03:48,756 --> 00:03:53,316 Speaker 1: with your containers full of machinery. We thought we would 63 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:54,676 Speaker 1: be there to watch the truck pull in, but it 64 00:03:54,676 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: turns out that interstate trucking is way faster than we anticipated, 65 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:01,796 Speaker 1: so it got there before we did. You should have 66 00:04:01,836 --> 00:04:04,396 Speaker 1: just rode a log in the truck, now, it would 67 00:04:04,436 --> 00:04:07,676 Speaker 1: have been the best way. We Actually, my partner and 68 00:04:07,716 --> 00:04:10,916 Speaker 1: I were driving out to chase it and we ended 69 00:04:10,996 --> 00:04:14,956 Speaker 1: up getting stuck by a blizzard in Utah and the 70 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:18,076 Speaker 1: truck just went through fine. So it was it was 71 00:04:18,116 --> 00:04:20,076 Speaker 1: quite the adventure to get there. And then once we 72 00:04:20,116 --> 00:04:22,996 Speaker 1: got there, it turns out that what we were trying 73 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:24,836 Speaker 1: to do with this was learned about the deployment. We 74 00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: were trying to learn about what it takes to operate 75 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:29,676 Speaker 1: this machine machine actually on the field edge, away from 76 00:04:29,676 --> 00:04:32,836 Speaker 1: our machine shop, away from our cat stations, Like what 77 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 1: does it take to really be in an RV on 78 00:04:35,516 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 1: the side of the field running this massive thing we 79 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:41,556 Speaker 1: had built. We had to bring all of our tools 80 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 1: with us, we had to bring all of our spares. 81 00:04:43,396 --> 00:04:46,356 Speaker 1: We had just an enormous amount of infrastructure that we 82 00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:48,516 Speaker 1: had put in place to be ready to run. And 83 00:04:49,316 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: I mean fundamentally, I think we forgot about winter as 84 00:04:51,676 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 1: a concept, and so that that was the first mistake. 85 00:04:54,236 --> 00:04:57,876 Speaker 1: We had spent too long in California. Yeah, that's a 86 00:04:57,956 --> 00:05:01,716 Speaker 1: that's a big problem. We got there and our air 87 00:05:01,796 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 1: compressor was like no, no, no no, it's too cold for 88 00:05:03,796 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: me to start, and we're like, oh, so, like it 89 00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:11,156 Speaker 1: begins with that, and then our nitrogen plan it had 90 00:05:11,316 --> 00:05:14,476 Speaker 1: basically a water removal system on it that froze solid. 91 00:05:14,556 --> 00:05:18,276 Speaker 1: We had there's ice building up, we got snow on 92 00:05:18,316 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: the machine. We had ingress of water into all different 93 00:05:23,036 --> 00:05:27,596 Speaker 1: pieces that we hadn't expected after running our prototype basically 94 00:05:27,716 --> 00:05:31,916 Speaker 1: in the Bay Area, which is namely doesn't have winter. 95 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:36,396 Speaker 1: So it was it was these little things that were like, 96 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:38,876 Speaker 1: of course we were thinking about this when we were designing. 97 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 1: We knew the conditions that would be in Kansas, but 98 00:05:41,196 --> 00:05:45,956 Speaker 1: when you're there in negative ten degree weather with whipping 99 00:05:45,996 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 1: wind on a machine trying to remove a component, it 100 00:05:49,716 --> 00:05:54,196 Speaker 1: is just an entirely different experience to be there. And 101 00:05:54,316 --> 00:05:55,716 Speaker 1: I think that was what we were trying to show 102 00:05:55,756 --> 00:05:59,276 Speaker 1: our team was it wasn't about getting the first prototype 103 00:05:59,316 --> 00:06:01,676 Speaker 1: up and running perfectly. It was about doing each step 104 00:06:01,716 --> 00:06:04,436 Speaker 1: of our process verifying it end to end, and we 105 00:06:04,556 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 1: learned so much in that and so we were Yeah, 106 00:06:08,676 --> 00:06:11,036 Speaker 1: we were learning every day, and the team was getting 107 00:06:11,036 --> 00:06:12,716 Speaker 1: back and we were all cooking dinner for each other, 108 00:06:12,996 --> 00:06:16,436 Speaker 1: and really there was a sense of like camaraderie and 109 00:06:16,836 --> 00:06:19,716 Speaker 1: adventure I think among the team, and I mean I 110 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:22,556 Speaker 1: like the camaraderian adventure. How much of that is like 111 00:06:22,596 --> 00:06:25,436 Speaker 1: the retrospective warm glow. How much at the time was 112 00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:29,476 Speaker 1: oh my god, this isn't going to work. The adventure 113 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:33,036 Speaker 1: was real in the first I think couple deployments, and 114 00:06:33,076 --> 00:06:38,956 Speaker 1: then the darkness set in, probably in February and March. 115 00:06:39,036 --> 00:06:41,556 Speaker 1: There was a tornado nearby. We had all sorts of 116 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:44,996 Speaker 1: exciting things happening in Kansas that were, you know, not 117 00:06:45,876 --> 00:06:49,836 Speaker 1: abnormal for Kansas. Let me ask you a simple question like, 118 00:06:49,996 --> 00:06:53,756 Speaker 1: and I know, working not working is not entirely binary, right, 119 00:06:53,796 --> 00:06:55,756 Speaker 1: It's like how efficient is it? How long does it take? 120 00:06:55,756 --> 00:06:57,836 Speaker 1: But how long did it take for it to work? 121 00:06:59,996 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 1: We were up and running probably about a month after 122 00:07:03,996 --> 00:07:06,276 Speaker 1: we got to Kansas. We got the machine up and running. 123 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:08,756 Speaker 1: It ran its first what we call hot flow, where 124 00:07:08,756 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 1: it was getting material through the machine, and so that 125 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 1: that was when it was like, all right, we're here, 126 00:07:13,836 --> 00:07:16,676 Speaker 1: it's working. Now we have to try to optimize each 127 00:07:16,756 --> 00:07:19,476 Speaker 1: part of it. And so we were basically every time 128 00:07:19,476 --> 00:07:21,116 Speaker 1: we would run the machine, we'd be like, Okay, well, 129 00:07:21,156 --> 00:07:22,716 Speaker 1: here's something that's not working as well as we'd like 130 00:07:22,716 --> 00:07:26,036 Speaker 1: it to. What can we put in place so that 131 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:27,716 Speaker 1: it will run longer for the next time or that 132 00:07:27,756 --> 00:07:30,636 Speaker 1: we'll run more efficiently the next time, And so we 133 00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:35,276 Speaker 1: were constantly trying to basically upgrade the machine. That's what 134 00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 1: my partner Kelly and I at charm do is we 135 00:07:38,316 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 1: lead the sort of rapid iteration of the hardware, and 136 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 1: so that's what we were trying to build. In a way, 137 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:47,236 Speaker 1: it's like the way people make software, right like you're 138 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:51,036 Speaker 1: doing the minimum viable chemical reactor that can sit on 139 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 1: a field in Kansas and then trying to iterate, right Like, 140 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:57,236 Speaker 1: that's basically what's happening exactly. Kelly and I were at 141 00:07:57,596 --> 00:08:01,876 Speaker 1: a company called Planet where we were working on the 142 00:08:01,996 --> 00:08:05,396 Speaker 1: Dove satellite. We had Will Marshall on the show Shout 143 00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:08,956 Speaker 1: Out Planet, Yeah, shout out to Plant, and I heard 144 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:10,956 Speaker 1: All talking about this on the show as well, where 145 00:08:11,036 --> 00:08:13,876 Speaker 1: he mentioned the sort of like ten to twenty percent 146 00:08:13,916 --> 00:08:16,836 Speaker 1: target failure rate of the satellite, and so we were 147 00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:19,956 Speaker 1: constantly trying to get new features in and get new 148 00:08:19,956 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 1: functionality in and always pushing that envelope. This is interesting. 149 00:08:24,996 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 1: So the satellite industry is a model, right, it's the 150 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 1: story you're telling. It's the same story that people like 151 00:08:32,436 --> 00:08:35,396 Speaker 1: like Will Marshall from Planet tells of like coming into 152 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:39,556 Speaker 1: this industry that has been slow to evolve, where things 153 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,996 Speaker 1: are very expensive, they're manufactured to be perfect, and they're 154 00:08:43,036 --> 00:08:47,516 Speaker 1: super expensive, and you're trying to to do the opposite 155 00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:52,036 Speaker 1: to make things cheaper and faster and better. Right exactly, 156 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 1: we say, all right, before we turn it on again, 157 00:08:55,476 --> 00:08:56,836 Speaker 1: what are we going to upgrade? What are we going 158 00:08:56,876 --> 00:08:58,996 Speaker 1: to fix? How are we going to move towards our goals. 159 00:08:59,436 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: Let's go back to Kansas for a second. I feel 160 00:09:01,236 --> 00:09:04,796 Speaker 1: like like I want to sort of finish that story. Right. 161 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:09,276 Speaker 1: So you're there, you're iterating, you're fixing, you're building, And 162 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:13,516 Speaker 1: so did you infect do the whole process for real 163 00:09:13,636 --> 00:09:17,316 Speaker 1: with this machine in Kansas? Yeah, we produced bioil with 164 00:09:17,356 --> 00:09:21,396 Speaker 1: our machine in Kansas, and we took in a cornstover 165 00:09:21,476 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 1: bail and processed it through to bioil. And did we 166 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:29,916 Speaker 1: process the entire two million pounds of biomass that we 167 00:09:29,996 --> 00:09:32,156 Speaker 1: had like staged in the background, and the event that 168 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:34,556 Speaker 1: we were running at ten tons per day at full rate, 169 00:09:34,916 --> 00:09:37,836 Speaker 1: No the machine. I think we operated at peak of 170 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:40,916 Speaker 1: about three and a half tons per day. One less 171 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:43,156 Speaker 1: detail about what actually happened. There's what'd you do with 172 00:09:43,196 --> 00:09:45,676 Speaker 1: all the oil you got from the cornstover? We put 173 00:09:45,716 --> 00:09:50,516 Speaker 1: it back underground where in wells in Kansas? Tell me 174 00:09:50,556 --> 00:09:53,196 Speaker 1: about the oil that you get out of agricultural waste? Like, 175 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:56,196 Speaker 1: what is it like? Is it like the oil it 176 00:09:56,196 --> 00:09:59,036 Speaker 1: comes out of the ground, Like it is like oil 177 00:09:59,236 --> 00:10:02,356 Speaker 1: in name only? Unfortunately, you know, if you've ever had 178 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:06,716 Speaker 1: fake wood smoke flavoring, that is bioil. It's the exact 179 00:10:06,716 --> 00:10:09,796 Speaker 1: same stuff. It's used as a mo food additive. That's it. 180 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:13,436 Speaker 1: We make liquid smoke under a different brand name, obviously. 181 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 1: And can you so it smells kind of nice, maybe 182 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 1: a little strong, but like kind of sweet smoky sweet. Mm. Yeah, 183 00:10:22,396 --> 00:10:24,196 Speaker 1: it smells like a camp fire. I mean that's the 184 00:10:24,236 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 1: smell of it. Can you taste it? Have you tasted it? 185 00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:31,676 Speaker 1: I wouldn't taste our stuff. It's I mean, basically I 186 00:10:32,076 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 1: actually have lost the taste for fake wood smoke flavor 187 00:10:35,156 --> 00:10:38,076 Speaker 1: as well. I can taste it in food, and I'm 188 00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 1: just like, no, I don't want this, so it is um. 189 00:10:42,116 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to sugarcoat the like I 190 00:10:45,156 --> 00:10:46,956 Speaker 1: don't think anyone should go out and drink this stuff 191 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:48,316 Speaker 1: in the same way that I don't think people should 192 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:50,796 Speaker 1: go and drink and be around crude oil. It is 193 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:54,836 Speaker 1: a messy, dirty substance, and so I think that the 194 00:10:55,636 --> 00:10:57,676 Speaker 1: we we sort of look at charm in the way 195 00:10:57,676 --> 00:11:02,916 Speaker 1: that it took this, you know, gross oily industry to 196 00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:04,436 Speaker 1: get us into this mess, and I think it's going 197 00:11:04,476 --> 00:11:06,436 Speaker 1: to take a little bit of a gross oil industry 198 00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:09,556 Speaker 1: to get us out. Is it sketchy and jet oil 199 00:11:09,596 --> 00:11:11,836 Speaker 1: into the ground, It sounds like it could be sketchy. 200 00:11:12,396 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 1: There are absolutely risks with injecting anything underground, and I 201 00:11:17,236 --> 00:11:21,636 Speaker 1: think that the ways that you mitigate that are through 202 00:11:21,796 --> 00:11:26,116 Speaker 1: careful analysis. You look at at the confining layers, and 203 00:11:26,156 --> 00:11:29,156 Speaker 1: you look at formations of previously held oiling gas. The 204 00:11:29,156 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 1: Premium basin held oiling gas for three hundred million years, 205 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:37,596 Speaker 1: so there are confining formations where the injection of oil 206 00:11:37,716 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 1: will maintain within that formation or within specific well types 207 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:46,196 Speaker 1: that are held there, but most of the hazardous chemicals 208 00:11:46,236 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: or anything else that this civilization generates is disposed of 209 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:52,796 Speaker 1: in these deep, underground injection wells. It's weird. I'm thinking 210 00:11:52,836 --> 00:11:54,796 Speaker 1: normally at this part of the interview, I'm like, tell 211 00:11:54,836 --> 00:11:56,716 Speaker 1: me one problem you're trying to solve. But I feel 212 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:59,276 Speaker 1: like you have too many problems, right like we have. 213 00:11:59,356 --> 00:12:03,876 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's the wonderful thing about startups is you 214 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:09,596 Speaker 1: have usually considerably or considerably more problems than people. And 215 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:11,596 Speaker 1: I think that's always the space where I enjoy to 216 00:12:11,636 --> 00:12:14,636 Speaker 1: operate is at a But I feel like you're really 217 00:12:14,916 --> 00:12:16,276 Speaker 1: I mean, it's true for a lot of stimes, but 218 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:18,916 Speaker 1: it's really true for you, right Like, I feel like 219 00:12:19,716 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 1: you guys are so early, and it's so hard what 220 00:12:21,876 --> 00:12:23,796 Speaker 1: you're trying to do, and it's so physical, and there's 221 00:12:23,836 --> 00:12:27,356 Speaker 1: so many things that you have to optimize so much 222 00:12:27,396 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 1: more than they are now. No, or am I underestimating 223 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:33,796 Speaker 1: you somehow? I think there are solutions in each of 224 00:12:33,796 --> 00:12:36,876 Speaker 1: these spaces. So there's solutions for char removal, there's solutions 225 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:41,556 Speaker 1: for oil condensation, there's solutions at each of the interfaces 226 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:43,276 Speaker 1: that we're trying to optimize for. And one of the 227 00:12:43,276 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 1: things that we know from our prototype is that this 228 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: isn't a scientific problem, right. We don't have to develop 229 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:54,756 Speaker 1: anything novel to solve these problems. It's really an engineering 230 00:12:54,756 --> 00:12:57,316 Speaker 1: problem at each of these interfaces. So I know one 231 00:12:57,316 --> 00:12:59,636 Speaker 1: of the sort of sub problems you're trying to solve 232 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 1: is how do you power your system? And I know 233 00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 1: you have this idea that you can use the heat 234 00:13:05,076 --> 00:13:08,596 Speaker 1: that you get from processing the cornstocks or whatever the 235 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 1: bioway to actually power most of the work you're doing, 236 00:13:12,036 --> 00:13:15,356 Speaker 1: which is a super elegant idea, but it seems really hard. 237 00:13:15,676 --> 00:13:18,756 Speaker 1: That is a It is a hard thing to do, 238 00:13:18,836 --> 00:13:22,156 Speaker 1: and we're working with some brilliant people in that space 239 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:24,556 Speaker 1: who have a solution for it. And so I think 240 00:13:24,556 --> 00:13:28,876 Speaker 1: one of the great things about this sort of energy 241 00:13:28,956 --> 00:13:33,276 Speaker 1: renaissance that we're in right now is that we don't 242 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:36,116 Speaker 1: see charm as being the one solution to the entirety 243 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:40,156 Speaker 1: of the climate problem, right, And so we are trying 244 00:13:40,156 --> 00:13:42,716 Speaker 1: to work with a couple groups to generate the power 245 00:13:42,756 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 1: off of our machine. Because the number one rule of 246 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:50,156 Speaker 1: engineering is don't if you have a group that already 247 00:13:50,236 --> 00:13:52,396 Speaker 1: is working on this problem and already has a solution 248 00:13:52,396 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 1: in the space work with them to help shape that 249 00:13:55,436 --> 00:13:58,756 Speaker 1: into the device that you need for your system. And 250 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:01,476 Speaker 1: is there in fact somebody who's like, oh, you need 251 00:14:01,516 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 1: to get power from heating biomass. Good news, we figured 252 00:14:05,516 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 1: out how to do that. Is that the case? Not 253 00:14:07,836 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 1: only is that the case, but they're in the Bay 254 00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:12,516 Speaker 1: Area and they are wonderful people. So they were by 255 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:14,236 Speaker 1: the other night for a happy hour and we were 256 00:14:14,276 --> 00:14:16,916 Speaker 1: just like standing by the machine having a beer saying like, 257 00:14:17,356 --> 00:14:20,436 Speaker 1: where should we put this port to properly interface to 258 00:14:20,476 --> 00:14:22,636 Speaker 1: your machine? What is the data that you want from 259 00:14:22,676 --> 00:14:26,436 Speaker 1: this to ensure that we can test this, and how 260 00:14:26,436 --> 00:14:29,916 Speaker 1: can we help you move faster so we can as 261 00:14:29,916 --> 00:14:34,156 Speaker 1: a whole move this industry further along. So that's the 262 00:14:34,196 --> 00:14:36,996 Speaker 1: technical side of how Charm works, or at least the 263 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 1: dream of how it's going to work. But Charm is 264 00:14:39,796 --> 00:14:44,036 Speaker 1: also a business. It's a company with paying customers. After 265 00:14:44,076 --> 00:14:47,636 Speaker 1: the break, what exactly does charm sell and who does 266 00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:57,276 Speaker 1: it sell it to? And now back to my conversation 267 00:14:57,316 --> 00:15:00,356 Speaker 1: with Sean, So it's interesting to think about even like 268 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:03,036 Speaker 1: what do you sell, Like what is the thing you're 269 00:15:03,076 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 1: selling and who are you selling it to? So we 270 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:11,316 Speaker 1: sell a permanent carbon removal, which is a effectively a 271 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 1: carbon credit for CO two extracted from the atmosphere. There's 272 00:15:17,716 --> 00:15:19,436 Speaker 1: a few things that are interesting to me there, right. 273 00:15:19,556 --> 00:15:23,156 Speaker 1: One is, you know, so there's this idea of carbon offsets, 274 00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:26,516 Speaker 1: and clearly what you were doing if you can figure 275 00:15:26,516 --> 00:15:28,916 Speaker 1: out how to do it at a reasonable price, right 276 00:15:30,476 --> 00:15:34,756 Speaker 1: is real. Right, you're taking stuff that would have gone 277 00:15:34,796 --> 00:15:36,796 Speaker 1: into the atmosphere's carbon dioxide and putting it in the 278 00:15:36,876 --> 00:15:40,396 Speaker 1: ground approximately forever, for as long as we care about. 279 00:15:41,636 --> 00:15:45,436 Speaker 1: There are other kinds of carbon offsets that seem more 280 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:47,596 Speaker 1: slippery to me, right, Like I have a tree in 281 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 1: my backyard, if you give me a one hundred bucks, 282 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:52,716 Speaker 1: I won't cut it down, right, Like, which is I 283 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 1: mean a little bit of a parody. But there there 284 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 1: is this universe of carbon offsets that have been kind 285 00:15:57,316 --> 00:16:01,476 Speaker 1: of like that, Right, it's like a hostage situation. I 286 00:16:01,516 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 1: would hate for something to happen to this forest in 287 00:16:04,356 --> 00:16:07,876 Speaker 1: my backyard, yeah, exactly. And it's like there are and 288 00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:10,556 Speaker 1: I don't want to undercut. Like they're the amazing work 289 00:16:10,596 --> 00:16:14,156 Speaker 1: that some groups are doing for like habitat restoration, and 290 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:17,196 Speaker 1: you know, the co benefits of having these these forestry 291 00:16:17,236 --> 00:16:20,676 Speaker 1: projects and there are like, there are people doing good 292 00:16:20,716 --> 00:16:23,796 Speaker 1: work in the space, but there are also an enormous 293 00:16:23,836 --> 00:16:27,916 Speaker 1: amount of groups that get credits for you know, the 294 00:16:28,996 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 1: hunting lodge. The forest on the hunting Lodge is one 295 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 1: that popped up recently. And like to be clear, a 296 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:37,796 Speaker 1: forest that nobody was going to cut down, right, somebody's saying, 297 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:39,636 Speaker 1: give us money and we won't cut it down, exactly, 298 00:16:39,676 --> 00:16:42,956 Speaker 1: A forest that was not at risk. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 299 00:16:43,036 --> 00:16:46,796 Speaker 1: And there are in the same vein. I have friends 300 00:16:46,796 --> 00:16:50,476 Speaker 1: who are farmers and they get messages that say, we 301 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:53,556 Speaker 1: are interested in selling carbon credits from your farm. You 302 00:16:53,596 --> 00:16:56,556 Speaker 1: may not have to change anything you're doing right now. Yeah, 303 00:16:56,916 --> 00:17:02,516 Speaker 1: And that is just fascinating from a from a market standpoint. 304 00:17:02,596 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 1: And so I think that what Charm really tries to 305 00:17:06,676 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 1: set ourselves apart on is that our carbon remove is permanent. 306 00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:13,956 Speaker 1: It's permanent, and it's pretty clearly stuff that carbon that 307 00:17:13,996 --> 00:17:16,836 Speaker 1: would go into the atmosphere in the absence of you 308 00:17:17,356 --> 00:17:19,396 Speaker 1: sticking it into your machine and turning it into oil 309 00:17:19,436 --> 00:17:21,396 Speaker 1: and stick it in the ground, right, And it is 310 00:17:21,476 --> 00:17:25,556 Speaker 1: extremely easy to measure. So we can measure every carbon 311 00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:29,116 Speaker 1: atom within that tote of bioil, and we can measure 312 00:17:29,236 --> 00:17:32,996 Speaker 1: exactly how much mass was injected into the well. We 313 00:17:33,076 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 1: have a measurable pathway. I think I heard it was 314 00:17:36,196 --> 00:17:39,236 Speaker 1: maybe your co founder say in an interview, like, what 315 00:17:39,276 --> 00:17:43,756 Speaker 1: we're actually selling at some level is measurement, measurement and verification. 316 00:17:45,076 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 1: Is that kind of certainty that companies are paying us for. 317 00:17:47,996 --> 00:17:50,436 Speaker 1: I mean, that's like, that's very interesting to me. It's 318 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 1: a little abstract, but I find it really compelling. Absolutely. 319 00:17:53,996 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 1: One of the reasons why Peter was interested in starting 320 00:17:56,756 --> 00:18:00,356 Speaker 1: charm with Us was this idea. Yeah, my co founder, Peter, 321 00:18:00,436 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 1: he previously ran an organization called Segment, and at Segment 322 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:09,036 Speaker 1: he was trying to find a way to purchase carbon removals. 323 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 1: And he is a character who will dig in on 324 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 1: a problem if he starts to see something a little 325 00:18:16,236 --> 00:18:18,796 Speaker 1: bit strange. And so he started going deeper and deeper 326 00:18:18,796 --> 00:18:21,276 Speaker 1: into these carbon removal projects and was just like, none 327 00:18:21,316 --> 00:18:25,836 Speaker 1: of these seem additional, none of these seem sure they 328 00:18:25,836 --> 00:18:29,316 Speaker 1: have a gold star from this, none of them seem 329 00:18:29,356 --> 00:18:33,356 Speaker 1: a totally legitiate to play organization. Yeah, and so he's like, 330 00:18:33,476 --> 00:18:37,716 Speaker 1: where's the permanent carbon removal? Because the extraction of oil 331 00:18:37,756 --> 00:18:41,116 Speaker 1: and burning it is a permanent carbon addition. Currently, Yeah, 332 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:43,436 Speaker 1: we are one of a handful of companies that are 333 00:18:43,436 --> 00:18:46,676 Speaker 1: actually offering a permanent removal and that's sort of what 334 00:18:46,716 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 1: separates Charm in the industry. So, I mean, it's obviously 335 00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:54,236 Speaker 1: more compelling than somebody who says, I won't chop down 336 00:18:54,316 --> 00:18:59,756 Speaker 1: this tree. It's also at this point just absurdly more expensive. Right. 337 00:18:59,836 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 1: It typically doesn't cost much to not chop down a tree. 338 00:19:04,716 --> 00:19:07,596 Speaker 1: It costs a lot now to do what you're doing. Right, 339 00:19:07,636 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 1: How much does it cost now and what you need 340 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:13,636 Speaker 1: to get to for it to be you know, realistic 341 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:19,636 Speaker 1: at scale? It costs Charm just about six hundred dollars 342 00:19:19,636 --> 00:19:24,356 Speaker 1: per ton of CO two equivalent removed from the atmosphere, 343 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 1: and that is the current price to remove carbon permanently. 344 00:19:29,916 --> 00:19:32,996 Speaker 1: I just give me some feeling for how much a 345 00:19:32,996 --> 00:19:36,196 Speaker 1: ton of carbon is. How much carbon does one American 346 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:40,556 Speaker 1: emit in a year? You know, it's about fifteen tons 347 00:19:41,156 --> 00:19:46,716 Speaker 1: per us like average person per year, fifteen per person 348 00:19:46,756 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 1: per year, and your cost right now is six hundred 349 00:19:49,996 --> 00:19:54,196 Speaker 1: per per ton per ton. So it's way too expensive 350 00:19:54,716 --> 00:19:57,156 Speaker 1: for now. What you do like, it's it's it's not 351 00:19:57,236 --> 00:20:02,516 Speaker 1: gonna go anywhere at that price, right, but like, presumably 352 00:20:02,596 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 1: part of your iterative thing is making it much cheaper 353 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:09,476 Speaker 1: really fast, which is a thing iteration and technol oology 354 00:20:09,556 --> 00:20:13,836 Speaker 1: is good at right. It kind of invented that move exactly. 355 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:16,476 Speaker 1: I think that it's a fair criticism to say it's 356 00:20:16,476 --> 00:20:19,476 Speaker 1: extremely expensive because it is, and that is just the 357 00:20:19,556 --> 00:20:22,516 Speaker 1: cost to deliver it right now. And so the major 358 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:26,876 Speaker 1: price points in that cost are things like the cost 359 00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:29,316 Speaker 1: of bailing and moving that biomass to the side of 360 00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:31,796 Speaker 1: the field and all of the labor associated with that, 361 00:20:31,956 --> 00:20:37,356 Speaker 1: the transport of biomass, the fertilizer replacement. If you're removing 362 00:20:37,356 --> 00:20:39,636 Speaker 1: that biomass from the field and you're not leaving back 363 00:20:39,676 --> 00:20:42,476 Speaker 1: those nutrients, the farmers still need to replace that. So 364 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 1: it's six hundred dollars a ton. Now it's too expensive. 365 00:20:45,356 --> 00:20:47,716 Speaker 1: What do you want to get it too in the 366 00:20:47,756 --> 00:20:50,876 Speaker 1: medium term? What you have a number in your mind, Yeah, 367 00:20:50,956 --> 00:20:52,956 Speaker 1: the medium term, we need to get it below three 368 00:20:53,036 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 1: hundred dollars per ton, give or take, which is which 369 00:20:57,116 --> 00:21:00,236 Speaker 1: gets us into the non voluntary markets. It's the cap 370 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:01,956 Speaker 1: and trade in the US, like the way the US 371 00:21:01,996 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 1: has decided to so people people in places like California 372 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:09,036 Speaker 1: and Europe are actually paying three hundred dollars per ton 373 00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 1: now but under various laws. Yeah, so when you think 374 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:17,916 Speaker 1: about cutting your price in half, are there a few 375 00:21:18,036 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 1: key steps? I think the big thing in the near 376 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:27,556 Speaker 1: term is reducing the amount of operators and the amount 377 00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:31,596 Speaker 1: of infrastructure needed for these sites. So the big thing 378 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:33,716 Speaker 1: that we've done from the start a Charm is focused 379 00:21:33,716 --> 00:21:36,756 Speaker 1: on automation, and so we're trying to say from the start, 380 00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 1: what is everything that we need instrumented on this machine 381 00:21:40,516 --> 00:21:42,796 Speaker 1: to be able to control itself, to be able to 382 00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:45,076 Speaker 1: monitor these processes. And in the same way that you 383 00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:47,596 Speaker 1: take a satellite and put it into a safe mode, 384 00:21:47,636 --> 00:21:50,156 Speaker 1: if something goes wrong with this machine, it enters a 385 00:21:50,156 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 1: safe state. So, I mean, I know it's like a 386 00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:54,876 Speaker 1: super prototype of basically how many people do you need 387 00:21:54,956 --> 00:21:59,036 Speaker 1: to run it? Now? Currently it takes two operators. We 388 00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:01,876 Speaker 1: really do three because we have someone whose job is 389 00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:04,596 Speaker 1: just to look at data that's streaming off the machine 390 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:08,316 Speaker 1: and sort of keep an eye on, sort of over 391 00:22:08,356 --> 00:22:10,956 Speaker 1: the shoulder. Want to get it from three down to one? 392 00:22:11,196 --> 00:22:13,116 Speaker 1: I mean, is that the basic idea I think we 393 00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 1: want to get it down to less than one is 394 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 1: the dream, And so you have maybe a person monitoring 395 00:22:18,636 --> 00:22:21,276 Speaker 1: five or ten of these machines, and your model for 396 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:24,516 Speaker 1: that is already there. In like modern farm equipment, right, 397 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:28,156 Speaker 1: there are these giant machines called combines that are highly 398 00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 1: automated and that show up at harvest time every year. Yeah. 399 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:33,876 Speaker 1: And so when you look at the way that these 400 00:22:33,916 --> 00:22:37,036 Speaker 1: combines are currently used in the field, is a farmer 401 00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:38,876 Speaker 1: doesn't own one of these pieces of equipment there are 402 00:22:38,876 --> 00:22:42,036 Speaker 1: a million dollars plus, but instead there's a group that 403 00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:44,396 Speaker 1: comes through with ten of them every harvest time and 404 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:47,756 Speaker 1: is just moving from the south to the north, going through, 405 00:22:48,156 --> 00:22:53,356 Speaker 1: following the harvest and removing the you know, processing the field. 406 00:22:53,396 --> 00:22:55,836 Speaker 1: And so I mean combines, to be clear, are just 407 00:22:55,996 --> 00:22:59,796 Speaker 1: machines that harvest wheat, corn, that kind of thing, right, 408 00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 1: It's just asting piece of equipment. Yeah, and so we 409 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:07,476 Speaker 1: are harvesting oil from the field effectively. So we're following 410 00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:11,916 Speaker 1: that harvest and it aligns well with the current way 411 00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 1: that the market is moving to have these sort of 412 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:18,956 Speaker 1: fleets of contract harvesting operations. And so we see ourselves 413 00:23:18,956 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 1: either partnering with or following one of those harvest operations. 414 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:29,836 Speaker 1: Who are your customers? Our first customers were Stripe, Shopify, Microsoft, 415 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:35,516 Speaker 1: it's companies that are trying to catalyze this industry. There 416 00:23:35,596 --> 00:23:39,956 Speaker 1: was this basically an advanced market commitment right from a 417 00:23:39,996 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 1: group of companies led by Stripe, where they basically said 418 00:23:43,276 --> 00:23:46,276 Speaker 1: we're going to spend a billion dollars on carbon removal 419 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:50,476 Speaker 1: Frontier Fund. Yeah, the Frontier Fund. We think overall it's 420 00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:53,596 Speaker 1: a huge thing for the industry because there's so many 421 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:57,476 Speaker 1: technologies in the carbon removal space that get to either 422 00:23:57,516 --> 00:24:00,916 Speaker 1: a pilot plant or like a slightly larger scale, and 423 00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:03,436 Speaker 1: then they need to scale up to be productive. And 424 00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: so people build something on a lab bench and then 425 00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:08,436 Speaker 1: they try to build the two hundred million dollar plant 426 00:24:08,876 --> 00:24:11,996 Speaker 1: and they can't raise funding for that. And what the 427 00:24:12,036 --> 00:24:15,476 Speaker 1: industry has done in the interim is that groups like 428 00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:19,676 Speaker 1: Stripe and Microsoft, Shopify, the Frontier Fund, have gone out 429 00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:23,076 Speaker 1: and said we will guarantee off takes from these facilities. 430 00:24:23,276 --> 00:24:25,596 Speaker 1: And so now people looking at building a two hundred 431 00:24:25,636 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 1: million dollar plant can actually raise debt financing by saying 432 00:24:29,196 --> 00:24:31,556 Speaker 1: we have guaranteed off takes over the next ten years. 433 00:24:31,916 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: And before these advanced market commitments existed, if you went 434 00:24:35,876 --> 00:24:37,476 Speaker 1: to a bank or you went to an investor, and 435 00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: you're like, hey, I need two hundred million dollars to 436 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:41,796 Speaker 1: build this plant. They're like, cool, who's going to buy it? 437 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:43,236 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, a bunch of people bought some 438 00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:45,476 Speaker 1: stuff last year, and it's like, he is I'm going 439 00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:47,396 Speaker 1: to buy anything next year? And you're like, I don't know, 440 00:24:47,636 --> 00:24:50,756 Speaker 1: and so you can't. That's not I mean, you know, 441 00:24:50,836 --> 00:24:52,636 Speaker 1: to throw it back to economics, that is not a 442 00:24:53,636 --> 00:24:56,716 Speaker 1: standard investing structure that would make sense. I mean I 443 00:24:56,836 --> 00:25:02,156 Speaker 1: get ultimately that we need to both reduce emission and 444 00:25:02,796 --> 00:25:06,796 Speaker 1: pull carbon out of the atmosphere. It does seem like 445 00:25:07,356 --> 00:25:11,556 Speaker 1: in the interim, getting better at pulling carbon out of 446 00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:16,556 Speaker 1: the atmosphere could reduce the sense of urgency with respect 447 00:25:16,596 --> 00:25:18,796 Speaker 1: to lowering emissions. Right, I'm sure this is the thing 448 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 1: you think about, Like, what do you think about it? 449 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:30,076 Speaker 1: I think that our built world is engineered around fossil 450 00:25:30,116 --> 00:25:34,076 Speaker 1: fuels currently, and so there is no rapid cutover. I 451 00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:37,716 Speaker 1: think that it is a yes, and we're not going 452 00:25:37,756 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 1: to overnight convert all aircraft into running on renewable fuels. 453 00:25:42,956 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 1: We're not going to be able to upgrade all aircraft 454 00:25:45,396 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 1: to hydrogen in the next few years, but that will 455 00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:52,756 Speaker 1: happen on the horizon, and it will happen through incentives, 456 00:25:52,756 --> 00:25:56,636 Speaker 1: and it will happen through through regulatory as well as 457 00:25:56,716 --> 00:26:01,316 Speaker 1: pushing these markets. And so I think that Charm is 458 00:26:01,396 --> 00:26:06,556 Speaker 1: not in the business to extend the sort of life 459 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:08,876 Speaker 1: of oil and gas assets. What we are doing is 460 00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 1: extracting carbon from the atmosphere, and we're trying to do 461 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:14,436 Speaker 1: it as fast as we can and get to a 462 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:20,196 Speaker 1: scale that once we are already past an oil economy 463 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:24,276 Speaker 1: that is running our little civilization on this blue marble, 464 00:26:24,396 --> 00:26:27,636 Speaker 1: we need a way to be extracting carbon from the 465 00:26:27,676 --> 00:26:30,236 Speaker 1: atmosphere quickly, and that is what we're trying to build. 466 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 1: And so I see the sort of carbon credit markets 467 00:26:36,116 --> 00:26:38,756 Speaker 1: as a tool that allows us to scale versus something 468 00:26:38,756 --> 00:26:46,396 Speaker 1: that allows that industry to perpetuate. In a minute, we'll 469 00:26:46,396 --> 00:26:49,196 Speaker 1: close the show with the lightning round. Sean spent two 470 00:26:49,276 --> 00:27:00,196 Speaker 1: years living in Antarctica. I got a few questions for him. 471 00:27:00,316 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 1: Now back to the show. Let's do a lightning round. 472 00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:06,596 Speaker 1: Let's do a bunch of questions. Some of them are 473 00:27:06,596 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 1: going to be about Antarctica, but not all of them. 474 00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:16,076 Speaker 1: We'll put the Antarctica. Antarctica will be its own continent, 475 00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:20,196 Speaker 1: within the lining round. In your Twitter bio, you call 476 00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:24,676 Speaker 1: yourself a hardware hacker. I'm curious, are there like household 477 00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 1: objects that you've hacked. I actually I turned a microwave 478 00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:33,836 Speaker 1: into a puzzle for a friend's wedding recently. It had 479 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 1: a car horn in it and it looked like a 480 00:27:35,716 --> 00:27:39,156 Speaker 1: marcrowave from the outside. But he's someone who hates buzzers, 481 00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:41,556 Speaker 1: and so it was a sort of he loves puzzles, 482 00:27:41,596 --> 00:27:43,476 Speaker 1: he hates buzzers. I thought it was a great little thing, 483 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 1: what one thing I should do if I ever find 484 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:51,116 Speaker 1: myself in Augusta, Kansas. I think the barbecue in Kansas 485 00:27:51,236 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 1: is great. I wouldn't turn anyone away from that. Do 486 00:27:55,036 --> 00:27:59,836 Speaker 1: you have like a guilty carbon footprint pleasure? Yeah? I 487 00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 1: enjoy I think I enjoy traveling. I enjoy meeting people 488 00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:08,876 Speaker 1: in different places. I spent two years at the South Pole, 489 00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:12,716 Speaker 1: which ran on diesel, and still trying to offset that one. 490 00:28:13,676 --> 00:28:18,356 Speaker 1: So so let's let's do a little lightning round within 491 00:28:18,516 --> 00:28:21,596 Speaker 1: the lightning round about your two years at the South Pole, 492 00:28:21,716 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: because it's amazing, Like, what, by the way, what were 493 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:27,476 Speaker 1: you doing there? When were you there? I went down 494 00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:32,196 Speaker 1: eighteen to shovel snow, and you came back at twenty 495 00:28:32,316 --> 00:28:36,436 Speaker 1: tired exactly. No, No, I went down at eighteen. I was, 496 00:28:37,156 --> 00:28:39,476 Speaker 1: you know, ostensibly to shovel snow, but I ended up 497 00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 1: working with the Ice Cube Neutrino Observatory on their deployments, 498 00:28:43,636 --> 00:28:45,396 Speaker 1: and I was just hanging out in the calm shop 499 00:28:46,156 --> 00:28:49,116 Speaker 1: during the summer, like fixing electrical things. That's been my 500 00:28:50,076 --> 00:28:53,756 Speaker 1: It's in that communication shop, in the radio shop. And 501 00:28:55,316 --> 00:28:58,076 Speaker 1: the person who was supposed to win her over for 502 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:01,756 Speaker 1: the communications role was deemed not physically qualified, and they 503 00:29:01,836 --> 00:29:02,996 Speaker 1: kind of turned to me and they're like, hey, you 504 00:29:02,996 --> 00:29:04,516 Speaker 1: have a pulse and like to fix things. You want 505 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: to stay on as the senior communications technician for the 506 00:29:07,396 --> 00:29:10,956 Speaker 1: south Pole, for the winch Sure for the winter. The 507 00:29:11,036 --> 00:29:13,156 Speaker 1: last plane leaves in February and the first one doesn't 508 00:29:13,156 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 1: come back until November. Let's do a little overrated or underrated, 509 00:29:17,836 --> 00:29:25,796 Speaker 1: overrated or underrated? Six months of darkness? Underrated, underrated. It's 510 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 1: better than I think. When you walk outside, it's not 511 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:33,076 Speaker 1: just dark, but the auroras are directly overhead, so you 512 00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:35,076 Speaker 1: can be walking under starlight and then all of a 513 00:29:35,116 --> 00:29:38,916 Speaker 1: sudden everything turns green and purple and you look up 514 00:29:38,916 --> 00:29:41,756 Speaker 1: and they're just ribbons of light dancing across the sky, 515 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:45,036 Speaker 1: and it is unbelievably beautiful. It still one of the 516 00:29:45,036 --> 00:29:49,756 Speaker 1: most beautiful places I've ever been, underrated or overrated. Six 517 00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:55,236 Speaker 1: months of sunlight overrated, we call it. We call it 518 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:58,276 Speaker 1: the hell star down there because you walk outside and 519 00:29:58,276 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 1: it's just always up. So you're walking. Yeah, yeah, it's 520 00:30:04,236 --> 00:30:06,156 Speaker 1: you go out to the bathroom in the middle of 521 00:30:06,196 --> 00:30:09,156 Speaker 1: the night, right and it's you know, one, two in 522 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:13,076 Speaker 1: the morning, and there's just a sun blaring down on you. 523 00:30:13,356 --> 00:30:15,476 Speaker 1: Because in the summer you stay out at summer camp, 524 00:30:15,556 --> 00:30:18,436 Speaker 1: which is a bunch of tents effectively, and so with 525 00:30:18,916 --> 00:30:20,636 Speaker 1: no bathroom in the tent, so you have to walk 526 00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:25,276 Speaker 1: over to the bathroom site and it is as cold 527 00:30:25,356 --> 00:30:28,196 Speaker 1: and as bright, and yeah, I don't know, I never 528 00:30:28,956 --> 00:30:34,356 Speaker 1: I think it's overrated. Good interesting sunshine overall, not overrated, 529 00:30:34,396 --> 00:30:37,396 Speaker 1: but six months definitely overrated. How do you feel about ice? 530 00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:42,676 Speaker 1: I love the sound it makes when you walk on it, 531 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 1: and the way that the I think you would you 532 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:48,276 Speaker 1: would have a great time down there with a mic. 533 00:30:48,356 --> 00:30:53,396 Speaker 1: It is the sound of the ice crystals blowing across 534 00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 1: the the polar plateau is unreal and you're at about 535 00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:02,396 Speaker 1: ten thousand feet on top of a two mile thick 536 00:31:02,516 --> 00:31:06,196 Speaker 1: glacier that's moving thirty three feet a year, and so 537 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:08,796 Speaker 1: it doesn't snow. At this outpole, we get less than 538 00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:11,156 Speaker 1: a million of precipitation a year. It's drier than the 539 00:31:11,156 --> 00:31:15,676 Speaker 1: Atacama Desert, and so the only snow that's coming in 540 00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:18,276 Speaker 1: are these like little ice crystals that are broken down 541 00:31:18,316 --> 00:31:21,516 Speaker 1: snowflakes that have been blowing for hundreds of miles across 542 00:31:21,596 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 1: the vast openness of the Seventh Continent. That's cool, That's 543 00:31:25,796 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 1: really cool. Sean Kinnetic is the co founder and chief 544 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:40,556 Speaker 1: scientist at Charm Industrial. Today's show was edited by Robert Smith, 545 00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:44,596 Speaker 1: produced by Edith Russolo, and engineered by Amanda k Wong. 546 00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:47,036 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what you think of the show, 547 00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:50,476 Speaker 1: and in particular, I have one request. Send us one 548 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:53,236 Speaker 1: thing you'd like us to change about the show, one 549 00:31:53,276 --> 00:31:55,876 Speaker 1: way we could make the show better. You can email 550 00:31:55,916 --> 00:31:58,876 Speaker 1: us at problem at Pushkin dot fm, or you can 551 00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:02,196 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Jacob Goldstein. We'll be back 552 00:32:02,236 --> 00:32:09,436 Speaker 1: next week with another episode of What's Your Problem.