1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,360 Speaker 1: Please welcome to the Armstrong and Getty Show. 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 2: The Fabulous Tim Sanderfer, Tim Lawyer, vice president for Litigation 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: with the Goldwater Institute. 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: Tim, how are you, sir? 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 3: I'm great? How are you guys? 6 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Excellent? 7 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: I felt a little jiv and pretentious the other day 8 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: I texted Tim about coming on the show, and I 9 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 2: just said, Hey, would you like to come chat about 10 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: sec versus A v. 11 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Jercasy? And I'm not an attorney. 12 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: I don't throw around cases without a description of what 13 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: they were. I just hope you didn't think I was 14 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: trying to come off as too big for my britches. 15 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 3: Well, okay, I'll be honest. I immediately ran for Scotus 16 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 3: blog to figure out what the heck you were talking about. 17 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: That's fine, that's perfect. No. 18 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm glad that you guys are paying attention 19 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 3: to this case and to similar cases, because this is 20 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 3: one of a group of cases that's going to be 21 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: addressing the limits of the so called administrative state, of 22 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 3: these regulatory agencies that exercise power to write the law 23 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 3: in the gate a leged infractions of the law and 24 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 3: then hold hearings to determine whether you violated the rule. 25 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 3: And the combining executive, judicial, and legislative powers all in one. 26 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 3: And then it's entirely overseen by bureaucrats instead of elected representatives. 27 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: So you even the idea that you can somehow vote 28 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 3: the bums out or something is inapplicable. And that's an 29 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 3: issue that is of increasing importance. And that's what's that 30 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: issue with this case and in these other cases. 31 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: What really grabbed me about the case was the Wall 32 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: Street Journals headline in their opinion section, the Supreme Court 33 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: considers the right to trial by jury. 34 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: That's a legit headline. 35 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly what's going on. So what happens here 36 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 3: is so everybody knows that if you're accused of fraud, 37 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: which is a crime, and the government charges you with 38 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 3: that crime, you get a trial where you get a 39 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 3: jury of your peers to determine whether you're guilty or 40 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 3: not guilty. But instead, what happened here was that this bureaucracy, 41 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: this agency, the SEC, they promulgated this rule that says, well, 42 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: you're not allowed to trade dishonestly by misleading people. And 43 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 3: what they're doing is rephrasing the ordinary rule of fraud. 44 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 3: But they're rephrasing it in bureaucrats speak. And then they say, 45 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 3: and because this is a bureaucratic thing, this is an 46 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: administrative thing, we don't have to follow the rules that 47 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: apply in courts. We can just use our administrative process. 48 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 3: And that's what they were arguing in the Supreme Court. 49 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 3: They were saying, well, it's basically up to us to 50 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 3: choose whether to go to an ordinary court and give 51 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 3: you a trial by jury, or whether to proceed in 52 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 3: our administrative court, which is overseen by a judge who 53 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 3: is being paid by the prosecutor. Honestly, in these agencies, right, 54 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 3: so you're not going to win there, and you don't 55 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 3: get a jury trial, and it's up to us, the 56 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 3: government to decide whether or not to let you have 57 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: this jury because we've decided to rephrase this as an 58 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 3: administrative thing. 59 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 4: Go ahead, Jack, Sorry, I was going to say, I 60 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 4: feel like at some point in this conversation maybe you 61 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 4: should redo your famous to me, no bad things speecious 62 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 4: so everybody fully understands how this whole agency thing works. 63 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: All right, let me let. 64 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: Me interject a question real quickly, and then we'll it's 65 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: a Christmas tradition, but getting back to the idea that 66 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: the government has decided whether I get a jury trial 67 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: or just this administrative hearing. What are my rights? How 68 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 2: do my rights as a defendant differ? Is that even 69 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: the right word? What are the rules of evidence? I mean, 70 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: what's the story with these hearings? 71 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 3: These hearings follow something similar. It looks very much like 72 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: an ordinary trial. But that is not always the case, 73 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: and particularly at the state level, because you know, we 74 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 3: always talk at these federal bureaucracies and forget that states 75 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: have their own bureaucraphies. Also in state bureaucracies, they very 76 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: often do what they call a quote informal hearing end quote, 77 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 3: and they try to make it sound like this is 78 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: a good thing for you. Oh, we're just going to 79 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: have an informal hearing. We just get together to talk. 80 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 3: You don't have to bring your lawyer, which of course 81 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 3: should immediately set off the alarms alarm bells in your head, 82 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: because it means that they don't follow the rules of evidence, 83 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 3: and they don't follow the rules of procedure. They can 84 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: use hearsay against you, They can use all sorts of 85 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 3: evidence that would be barred from a real court in 86 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: these administrative hearings, and then when you appeal from that 87 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 3: into a real court, the judge in the real court 88 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 3: is not allowed to consider any other evidence except what 89 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: was used against you in the administrative hearing. That's how 90 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 3: a lot of these hearings work. It's totally unfair and 91 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: in my view, totally unconstitution I'm. 92 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 4: Glad you made the point that yes, states have jails 93 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 4: and the ability to find and confiscate too, so it's 94 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 4: not just at the federal level. So in case people 95 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 4: don't fully understand how we even got here, give us 96 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 4: the Tim Sander for famous No Bad Things speech about 97 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 4: how agencies can work. 98 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 3: So let's say I'm running for Congress, right, and I'm 99 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 3: my platform is I'm against bad things, And of course 100 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 3: everybody's going to vote for me because you're also against 101 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: bad things. I know you guys are against bad things. 102 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: There's very f people who are, oh staunchly. So I 103 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: get elected to office, right, and on my first day 104 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: in office, sure enough, I'm true to my word. I 105 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 3: fulfill my campaign promise. I sit down and I write 106 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 3: a bill and No Bad Things Act of twenty twenty three, 107 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,559 Speaker 3: and it's two sentences long. It says one there shall 108 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 3: be no more bad things. 109 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: Two two. 110 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 3: There shall now be a Federal Bad Things Agency, which 111 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 3: shall define what is a bad thing, investigate alleged bad things, 112 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: hold hearings about bad things, and then punish bad things. 113 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 3: And then I see I've done it. My bill got passed. 114 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: I can go home and I can tell all my 115 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 3: constituents I look at what I did. I have banned 116 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 3: bad things, and I can move on to the next thing. Meanwhile, 117 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: the bureaucrats get to work. And not only do these 118 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 3: bureaucrats operate without you have no control as a voter. 119 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: You have no control over these bureaucrats. If they go 120 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 3: and do something that is outrageous and it ends up 121 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: in the newspaper and people get angry about it. I 122 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 3: can now hold a hearing and drag the Secretary of 123 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 3: Bad Things in front of me and say, shame on you. 124 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 3: That's not what I meant when I passed my law. Well, 125 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: and I again, I look like a good guy. It's 126 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 3: a scheme where the actual law making gets done by 127 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 3: these hired bureaucrats, and I, the elected official, can wash 128 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 3: my hands of the responsibility but still take all of 129 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 3: the credit. 130 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's so hard to fight against. 131 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: Because of that. 132 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 4: So are both parties involved in the growing power of 133 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 4: agencies like this. 134 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: They absolutely are. It's you mean we often complain about 135 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 3: these agencies like the EPA. The EPA was created by 136 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: Richard Nixon. I mean, this is a Republican as much 137 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: as a democratic problem. Now, the good thing is from 138 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 3: this Jacrasy case that we're talking about in the oral argument, 139 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: it looked like most of the justices had a real 140 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 3: problem with this idea of prosecuting people in an administrative 141 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 3: courts without a jury by just pretending that it's something 142 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: other than a crime. But Justice Kagan seemed to be 143 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 3: fine with it, but the rest of the justices had 144 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 3: real problems with it. Justice Kagan, she's got this mindset that, 145 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: you know, government should be run by experts and the 146 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 3: ext of course are the brilliant geniuses who run these 147 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 3: administrative agencies, and we should just let them do all 148 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 3: the governing and then you know, obey them when they 149 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: when they tell us what to do. That's a that's 150 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: a mindset that is very deeply rooted in Washington, d c. 151 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 3: And it's a real problem. 152 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: Did she arrive via time machine from the nineteen thirties 153 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: or something like that. 154 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: Well lot out of your your wonderful book Freedom's Theories, 155 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: which everybody should read. 156 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 3: And a lot of these precedents, these legal precedents do 157 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 3: date back to the thirties when these giant administrative agencies 158 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: were adopted. Now, another case that's coming up very in January, 159 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 3: that will be arguing in January is this case called 160 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: Low or Bright that involves deference to administrative agencies. And 161 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 3: difference is this rule that says when an agency interprets 162 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 3: its own authority, like you know, the EPA has the 163 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 3: authority to prohibit pollution. Now it's okay, So now they're 164 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 3: going to define what is a pollutant. Right when they 165 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 3: do that, the judges are supposed to defer to them, 166 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 3: just rubber stamp what they say. And that's called Chevron deference. 167 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 3: And this is a terrible problem because of course, the 168 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: bureaucrats interpret their authority as broadly as possible to expand 169 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 3: their power, and that means that the ball is always 170 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: moving in the direction of more and more government control. 171 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 3: And it's pretty clear the writing is on the wall 172 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 3: that the Supreme Court doesn't like this anymore. And this 173 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: this case, this low or bright case is very likely 174 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 3: to scale back or pay perhaps even eliminate at least 175 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 3: that part of this of this problem. 176 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: So a request for one more bit of illumination of 177 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: the bigger problem we're talking about. I'm trying to remember 178 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: the name of the case. Those folks who are just 179 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 2: trying to build on their little subdivision lot and the 180 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: EPA claim that they're a wetland. 181 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: Can you give folks the uh? 182 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 4: I'll the case of right versus Wrong is. 183 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: This goes back to the case of finders versus keepers. 184 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 3: This is you're talking about a case called Sacket versus EPA, 185 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 3: which has been in the courts for over a decade now. 186 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 3: And this is a case where these people wanted to 187 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 3: build a house on their on their dry land in 188 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 3: a neighborhood in Idaho, and the Feds showed up and said, 189 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 3: guess what, it's a wetland and what is a wetland? Well, 190 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be wet and it doesn't have 191 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: to be land. It can be basically whatever the bureaucrat 192 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 3: says it is. And you can be fined seventy five 193 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: thousand dollars a day for doing anything that pollutes this 194 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 3: alleged wetland, and they said, we don't think it's a wetland. 195 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 3: We'd like to have a hearing where we can prove 196 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: it's not a wetland. And the EPA said, no, you're 197 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: not entitled to that, and that went up to the 198 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 3: Supreme Court ten years ago and the Supreme Court said no, 199 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 3: they get a right to have a hearing, and it 200 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: went back and it took another decade for them to 201 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 3: get back to the Supreme Court on the question of 202 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 3: what the definition of a wetland even is. Now I'm 203 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: glad to say that my friends at the Pacific Legal 204 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 3: Foundation won that case in this this past Supreme Court term, 205 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 3: and the Supreme Court unanimously said that the bureaucrats were 206 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: interpreting the term wetland far too broadly. But it's a 207 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 3: real indication of how hard it it is to fight 208 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 3: the administrative agency that it took a decade of litigation 209 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: to get to the point where every Supreme Court justice 210 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: said the bureaucrats were wrong. That's amazing And they could 211 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: not have been done except that our friends at Pacific 212 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 3: Legal Foundation represented them for free. 213 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 4: And it would be so frustrating if you were involved 214 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 4: in one of these things fighting it and you know 215 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 4: you're fined or whatever, your life ruined or whatever. On 216 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 4: hold you'd think, Am I in America or not? I 217 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 4: meant to be frustrating. 218 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 3: In fact, very question was asked at the Supreme Court. 219 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 3: Justice Alito interrupted at one point in the hearing and said, 220 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 3: how could this possibly occur in the United States? 221 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 4: Hey, before we let you go. And I don't know 222 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: how much you want to talk about this or not. 223 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 4: Although I follow your Twitter feed, which is also public, 224 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 4: you seem to be a pretty big believer that Ukraine 225 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 4: losing to Russia or Israel having to hold on to 226 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 4: a ceasefire against some massa is a pretty big event 227 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 4: in world history. 228 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: I do indeed, and I hope the good guys win 229 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: both of those wars. 230 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is a big deal. 231 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 3: We have repeatedly in the past five or six years especially, 232 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 3: been backing away from defending freedom, and we do it 233 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: under this ridiculous slogan of oh, we can't fight endless wars. 234 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 3: The phrase endless wars is an idiot slogan. All wars 235 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 3: are endless until you win them. Life is an endless 236 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: war against death. Freedom is an endless war against tyranny, 237 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 3: and it's about about time we woke up to that. 238 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: That's really good. 239 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 3: Well, bullies, as we know from personal experience, bullies will 240 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: continue pushing until you push back. And Americans have become 241 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: increasingly reticent to defend the principles that protect their other 242 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 3: countries as well as ourselves, on this notion that, well, 243 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 3: we shouldn't be the world's policeman. Well, if you're not 244 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 3: going to be the world's policeman, somebody else is going 245 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 3: to be. It's not like if we stop doing it, 246 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: nobody's going to do it. It's if we stop doing it, 247 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin going to do it. If we stop doing it, 248 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: the Isaola is going to do it, and particularly the Iatola. 249 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 3: The Iran has been at war with the United States 250 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 3: since nineteen seventy nine. And we like to try and 251 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 3: pretend otherwise, and we come up with all sorts of 252 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: ingenious schemes for pretending otherwise on the theory that, as 253 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 3: President Obama liked to say, we can end a war. Well, 254 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 3: once again, wars are never ended. There is no such 255 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 3: thing as ending a war. You either win a war, 256 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 3: or you lose a war, or you postpone a war. 257 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 3: Those are the only three options. Ending a war typically means, 258 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 3: as we saw in Afghanistan, typically means literally surrendering to 259 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 3: the Taliban, which is what the Trump administration did and 260 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: which the Biden administration followed through on. And there is 261 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 3: no question that that emboldened our enemies and taught them 262 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 3: that Americans are not willing to stand up for ourselves 263 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: or for Western civilization. And that's why Western civilization has 264 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 3: frankly been on the retreat in the past several years, 265 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: and it's going to continue until people finally insist on 266 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 3: putting a stock to it. Thank Heavens, Israel is finally 267 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 3: insisting on putting a stop to it, and we need 268 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 3: to let them win victory over Hamas. Anybody out there 269 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: who is concerned about the safety of innocent Palestinians, their 270 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: number one demand should be that Hamas surrender immediately. Hamas 271 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 3: is responsible for every single civilian death that occurs in 272 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: this war, and it's because they refuse to surrender and 273 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 3: insist on shielding themselves behind civilians. And moral clarity on 274 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: this point is absolutely essential, not only for Israel, but 275 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 3: for Western civilization as a whole. This isn't going to 276 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 3: defend itself. We've not been given any guarantees that Rome 277 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 3: and Egypt were not given in their day. And unless 278 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: we are willing to defend our principles of individual freedom, democracy, 279 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 3: human rights, the rights of women, those rights are going 280 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: to vanish under the fists of the strongest bully out 281 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 3: there for. 282 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 4: A thousand years. 283 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: And I think that's the exception of maybe, well, certainly 284 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: Ukraine and Poland, in a couple of other countries. I 285 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: think we've as a civilization forgotten that sometimes you have 286 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: to defend yourself to the death. We imagine that we're 287 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 2: living in a world that is post all of that ugliness. 288 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: Thirty seconds your summary, sir well. 289 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: I say thank god for the Baltic States when it 290 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 3: comes to Eastern Europe. Thank goodness for Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, 291 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 3: who are clear eyed about this because they suffered from 292 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: the world refusing to come to their defense. And we 293 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 3: should be willing and ready to defend them and the 294 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 3: rest of Europe against against Putin's aggression, and to defend 295 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 3: the innocent people of Israel against the aggression of Hamas 296 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: and their Iranian bosses. 297 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: Tim sand for Tim, we appreciate the thoughts in the 298 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: time very much, and certainly we agree and also are 299 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: very very interested in countering the young progressive moral relatives 300 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: life lunatics running around on campuses these days. 301 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 3: Well, then then get people to watch my videos and 302 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 3: that'll solve that problem. 303 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: I tweet them out every time you make them. We'll 304 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: have the links at armstrong ee getty dot com, Armstrong 305 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: and Getty