WEBVTT - What exactly is the Peter Principle? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.960 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.640 It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know? 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:16.439 Front House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.600 the podcast. There's Chuck Bryant about fall Asleep and I'm 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:21.960 Josh Clark. This is stuff you should know. How's it going? 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.239 You just went on? He Hall, I totally did. Didn't 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.240 I get the price tag? I'm a little hat. Did 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.000 you watch that as a kid? No, I never did. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.880 That was more solid gold guy, Yeah, see that now 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.360 Big Time and Muppets. Muppets Actually I think came on 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.159 before after solid Gold, cal Burnet schell. Yeah. Yeah, My 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.520 mom was a big tribe. Me too. I thought Tim 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.040 Conway was the funniest human being. You're gonna bring up 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.320 to Tim Conway. Chuck always talks about Tim Conway's assess it. 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.920 It's always about Tim Conway. Tim Conway, This Tim Conway 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.280 that you know what? Never happened to Tim Conway. He 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.560 never got promoted to a job he wasn't qualified for. 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.440 We've been doing this way too long, Chuck, way too long. Together. 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.840 You can predict my every move. He can just point 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.480 and he knows what I'm about to do. Sometimes I 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.160 wonder if I actually do things because he's telling me 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:15.160 to with his mind. Yeah, tell me that power, dude. Oh, 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.479 I'd be in big trouble, he would. Yeah, so chuck, Um, 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.560 let's talk about the Peter principle. Have you ever heard 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.840 of this before? Well, I've read your article when it 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.040 was initially published a while ago, But I mean, were 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:28.840 you disappointed with it then too? I actually thought it 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:31.120 was better than I do now. But I see, I 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.319 grew up with this, Like my dad had this book 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.800 and it was like it was like sixties kind of 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.440 like intelligent ha ha ha kind of joke, you know, 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.760 like hotail party humor. Yeah, and I grew up around 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:48.920 that kind of thing, so I you know, intelligence. So uh, 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.000 this was like the Peter principal to me is something 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.880 that like I've known forever. So it's odd to meet 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.600 people who don't who hadn't really heard of it before. Well, 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.280 my parents were both educators and maybe, um, like I 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.120 knew nothing about business in corporate life and that kind 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:09.519 of thing. My dad was an engineer, a train engineer. Yeah, dude, dude, no, no, okay, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:16.360 Now he's a mechanical engineer. For untrained. Yep. Okay, so, Chuck, 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.840 that what we're talking about is based on a uh, 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.640 let's see, I think it's a nineteen sixty nine book, 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:28.200 nineteen sixty seven, nineteen sixty nine, we'll say, somewhere in there, 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.720 and it's called the Peter Principal Why Things Always Go Wrong? 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.840 And it definitely was based on an article written by 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.440 a guy named Dr Lawrence J. Peter who was a 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:43.119 an educator, and apparently it was an Esquire magazine initially 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.839 in January nineteen sixty seven. Yes, there was a huge 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.600 response to it, right uh. And basically what it was 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.880 it was tongue in cheek. It's an unnatural law like 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.519 Parkinson's law, which we'll get to, right sure, or Murphy's law, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:59.840 which we won't get to. We've already done that one, 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.160 I think. Or was that pre Chuck. I think it 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.480 was pre Chuck. Those days don't exist in my mind. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.200 Uh yeah. So anyway, Chuck, it's a it's a kind 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.000 of tongue in cheek, but it actually does reveal, um, 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.880 kind of this this rye observation that you know, all 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.200 of us have seen at one time or another that eventually, 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.280 if you promote somebody based on good work, you're going 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.440 to promote them to a point where they're no longer 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.080 they're so far out of their field they've become incompetent 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.240 in their current job. That's pretty funny. There's one stertling 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.679 example that comes to mind. Oh, I don't know, back 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.000 in the heavy days of two thousand five, maybe late 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.480 August early September two thousand five, a little thing called 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:44.960 Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans with a vengeance. And there's this, 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:50.000 um I think it's a federal agency and it's charged 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.480 with handling natural disasters or disasters of any kind that 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.120 occur in the US. That would be the Federal Emergency 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.760 Management Agency a FEMA. Uh And um, it just so 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.560 happened that in late August of two thousand five, FEMA 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.720 was headed by a guy named Michael Brown who you 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.040 may know and love is Brownie. So Brownie was running 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.840 the show when herr Kane Katrina hit and basically it 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:20.440 took days for the FEDS to respond. I remember reading 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.480 an article or several maybe where Bush was questioning whether 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:26.719 it's even the federal government's role to help out in 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.800 this kind of disaster. Right, Well, sure enough, FEMA finally 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.560 gets around to helping. I think they got a few 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.039 bottles of water down there and truck some people out. 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:40.120 That kind of thing. Uh. And amid this complete cluster 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:47.640 of a rescue humanitarian mission, mismanagement totally and in every 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.960 form of the word. Yeah, the good people of FEMA, 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.080 and we want to say we're probably working very hard, 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:54.000 but it was missing. It was a top down day 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.520 and and just ease off. I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.440 gonna bail Brownie out here in a second. Um. But 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:06.240 amid this this bungled crisis rescue mission, Bush goes down 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.560 to New Orleans and says, Brownie, you're doing a heck 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:12.520 of a job, which he wasn't now and he even 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.880 knew he wasn't. No, this is not judgment on our part, right, 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.520 I think even while the the rescue operation or the 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.719 crisis alleviation operations going on, Brownie famously said, can I 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:29.479 quit now? Why made me feel bad for the guy? Yeah? No, 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.039 I agree, he's in over his head. I feel bad 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.039 for him. Two And he was in way over his 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.719 head why because of the Peter principle, because he was 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.520 promoted to a position he was not qualified to manage correct, 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.200 he period he was formerly his job right before the 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.280 head of FEMA. He was in charge of the Commission 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.000 on Judges for the Arabian Horse Association. He's good at 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.400 it too. Yeah, he excelled in that position, right. That 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:57.840 was part of the reason why I think, you know, 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.720 maybe a little bit of helping your buddy out I 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.800 had to do with it. So, which which everybody does? 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:05.440 I mean, I got this job because of a friend, 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.480 So that did you? Really? I got this job by 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.320 my own blood sweat and tears, pal, blood sweat and tears, Josh, 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.920 great band agreed, So is earth wind and fire right, 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.039 But earth wind and fire won't get you a job. 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.120 Blood sweat and tears as well, agreed? So well, cool 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:23.000 in the gang. Okay, so Chuck um, you're right there. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.320 There is a certain level of nepotism or I'm not 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.800 sure what it's called when you get friends jobs. Is 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:33.640 it still nepotism relatively familiar? Yeah? Yeah, I'm not sure 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:37.120 that we'll figure it out. Um so yeah. So, but 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:42.000 Brownie doesn't fit the classic definition of the Peter principle 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.120 because he got his job in large part because he 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.200 knew the president right, Is it usually someone who's promoted 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.160 from within? Is that the distinction? Yes? Okay, yeah, So 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.480 what happens is you, I use the example in this 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.640 article of a web designer. Think of when a guy's 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:02.440 in DEBV right, right, So you're just excelling at your work. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.160 You're you're you're working your tail off. Everything you do 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.760 is just golden. You're born developer. Right. Well, if you 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.800 do that long enough, and you get to know the 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.680 people around you long enough, you'll probably get promoted to 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:19.720 a position of of manager where you're still over the 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.520 dev department, but you're now telling the dev department what 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:28.680 to do. Conceivably, if you're of a certain ilk, you 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.440 you would be able to kind of carry that out. Yeah, 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.200 if if you're capable of doing that. But let's say 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:38.240 that you are kind of good at that, and you 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.640 excel at that, but you're still really you're doing you're 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.280 walking behind other people and fixing their mistakes, that kind 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.400 of thing. You're still doing developing. Let's say you excel 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.320 in that managerial position and you get promoted eventually out 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.480 of development, and maybe you're over development like you're the 0:07:55.520 --> 0:08:00.800 ct O R, but you're no longer developing. Oh, you're managing, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.160 You're working with budgets, you're hiring people, you're firing, completely 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.040 different skill set. You're likely going to be incompetent unless 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.400 you're a born manager and you're good with budgets, you know, um, 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.320 dealing with CEOs and CEOs and stuff like that. Right, 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.000 that actually happened, same exact scenario at my last job, 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:19.920 a web developer, and he was great at that. They 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.000 promoted him, and um, he was not a good manager 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.080 of people. No, I think. I think it takes a 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.480 certain kind of person. It's like sales, right, I can't 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:34.880 sell anything. Come on, come on, I think dude. Uh no, 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.240 I I can't. Like I'm no good at sales. Um, 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.480 I also suck at serving. I was a terrible waiter. Yeah, 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.760 I was a decent waiter. I sucked at it. That's good. Thanks, Um, 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.240 so thanks? Why is that good? Well, because that means 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.199 you don't have to be a waiter. That's true. Well, 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:54.679 you were good at it, and you're not a waiter. 0:08:55.400 --> 0:09:00.200 Well true, I'm a writer. It's only one letter different. Agreed. Um. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.439 So let's say you you you do get promoted to 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.760 CTO and you're doing hiring and firing. Now here's where 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.800 the Peter principle, which has just occurred because you've been 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.640 promoted to your level of incompetence, Here's where it becomes 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:17.000 a vicious cycle. Right, right, do you want to take where? 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.880 Because okay, uh, the the since you're hiring and firing people, 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.960 you're probably also likely promoting people. So if you're an 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.840 incompetent manager, then you are probably going to make terrible 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.400 decisions on who to promote. So the problem with it 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.920 is that eventually, in a hierarchy which all businesses are 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.760 based on, or it's a top down, top down process 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:40.840 for pyramid, most of the work is being done by 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.480 the lower levels the base of the pyramid, and then 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:45.319 you go further and further up, and the least amount 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.480 of work is being done by the people at the top. Supposedly, 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.080 I hear. Uh, So eventually the top of the hierarchy 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.520 becomes populated exclusively by incompetent people in a worst case 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.880 Peter principal scenario. But if this is what I found 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.560 most interesting is that it um unless you are what 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.720 he called uh super incompetent quote unquote, then you won't 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.920 get fired. No, you'll just continue along and basically what 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.800 happens is is mediocrity takes hold. Doesn't mean you're awful 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.239 and that you're gonna make decisions that will destroy the company, 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.360 but your mediocre. And since there isn't a process of 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.800 demotion in this country, or maybe there isn't in any country. Uh, 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.000 and the corporate structure at least you, you can't be 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:31.520 demoted without it looking like failed, defailed exactly. Yeah, Like 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.679 they can't just say, you know what, this is quite right, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.600 you're you're better at your other job, so why don't 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.680 we just put you back there? Um, And you'll even 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.040 make more money doing so well that that's a real 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.840 solution to the Pewter principle. Is number one, installing a 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.840 mechanism where you if it if you're not working out, 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:48.760 you get to go back to what you're doing, but 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.959 without the stigma failure. The other the other, this is 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:56.960 the one I subscribed to, is UM offering increased compensation 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.480 without promotion. I subscribe to that as well. Think about it, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.880 I mean, like most people accept promotions and uh be 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:08.640 based on the increase in salary, right right. I just 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.520 really want to manage somebody. Usually I really want to 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.640 go make more money. Yes, but those are probably people 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.040 who are born managers. Yeah, but I would say the 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:20.000 prestige and the title and the money is even above that. Yeah, 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.600 the money's at the top, right, Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Um. So, 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.400 if you could, if you could set up your business 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:30.320 in such a way that you are paying people, you're 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.720 giving them increased pay, vastly increased pay, like the kind 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.840 that you would get if you got a promotion without 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.800 promoting them, then you're going to avoid the Pewter principle altogether. 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:44.880 The problem is that that you basically create a a 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.679 class structure where there are just people out there who 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.720 are you know, executives and that's what they do, and 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:54.960 then you have people out there who are just developers. 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.480 It's actually very socialistic in nature, it is, you know, 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:04.680 uh Parkinson. Yeah. So there's another dude, an English historian. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:09.280 His name is C. Northcote, c Northcote Parkinson, great name, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.440 thank you, uh. And he wrote in the Economist magazine 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.800 in nineteen fifty five his first law, which was work 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.800 expands so as to fill time available for its completion. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.319 I think most people have heard this, and I think 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.440 I might agree with the guy. Oh yeah, if you 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.240 give somebody a week to do a project, they'll take 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:27.880 a week. If you give them two days, they'll get 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:31.280 it done in two days. Same project too, Yeah exactly. Yeah, 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:36.040 so like Murphy's law. Yeah, it's an unnatural law. Exactly. Um. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.439 So yeah, what the white chuck just mentioned that is 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:44.360 because um, one of the there's actually a contrary theory 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:49.760 to um, the Peter principle. It was this lazare. Yeah, okay, 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.640 that's the he wrote, I'm sorry, an article not a book, 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.040 called the Peter principal a theory of decline, and he 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.600 put the uh the onus uh for responsibility onto the 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:05.880 employee rather than an incompetent manager who incompetently promote somebody 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.840 who shouldn't be right. He said that what happens is 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.720 you have your average employee who's looking for that promotion, 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.160 probably because they want more money, right. Probably, so they're 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.440 they're working, work and work and working like you know, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.480 eighty hour weeks and um, just putting in all this time, 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:26.240 neglecting family, all that. Um. And once that, once that's noticed, 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.720 after a certain amount of time, usually they will get 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.839 a promotion. The thing is, it's not that's not sustainable. Behavior. Right, Well, 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:34.880 that's when the trouble hits. You rest on your laurels 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.240 once you finally hit that promotion. Yeah, and once you've 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.960 gotten the salary. Because again, businesses don't have any kind 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.959 of fail safe put into knock you back down. When 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:44.839 you do do that, right, you either get fired or 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.000 you just keep doing the same job. And most likely 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.480 you're not gonna get fired, just gonna do a mediocre job. 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:54.319 But Lazarre Lazier said that it was the employees basically 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:59.320 creating a deception that made people who shouldn't be promoted 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.480 promoted because they're being promoted based on their work ethic. 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.400 That was actually an artificial work ethic. Right. That's kind 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.680 of cool too. I like all this stuff. I thought 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.160 you hated this article. Oh, I was just pulling your leg. 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.360 You shouldn't toy with me. It's much it's much more 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.240 interesting when we talk about it than when I read it. 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.560 To be honest, I agree. I agree, Chuck. We've taken 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.200 some kind of fluffy articles and done some things we 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.280 should you know we should do. We should start a podcast. 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.400 What a good you like talking about? I don't even 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.280 know what a podcast is, dude. Uh, you know, the 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:36.680 Peter principal also doesn't just apply to employees, right, it 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:41.040 applies to innovation as well, right buddy, Yeah, it's it's 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.840 the same exact principle. And this was an essay called 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.000 the Peter Principle of Innovation by Nitton. I've never heard 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.280 that word. Nitton Bore Bore one car. Yeah, what a 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.480 great name. And um he basically said, the same thing 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:59.600 applies to innovation young he or she um proposed as 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:03.200 the a young company has room to innovate, producing new ideas, 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:07.520 advancing old ideas, and the same thing happens. At some point, 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.680 the innovation turns stagnant. Yeah, but then the reason why 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.120 it turns stagnant is because eventually you hit a home 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.480 run and you say, okay, well this one thing we 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.640 just did just made us a billion dollars, let's keep 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.680 doing it over and over again, and everything else kind 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.240 of falls to the wayside. So yeah, innovation becomes stagnant. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.080 What happens is the people who are still innovators go 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.200 off found their own company and do the same thing, 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.840 and it just keeps happening exponentially, this cycle of innovation 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.480 and stagnation. Like I think Google will probably a good example. 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.800 It's like they've completely mastered search on the Internet at 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.640 this point, seemingly, and they've innovated their company structure in 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.120 their company model to a point where people have left 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.720 Google and started their own company. Sure, I I don't. 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.120 I don't know that it's a lack of innovation, though 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.160 they do a lot of I don't think they've hit 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.840 stagnation yet. You don't think so? No, man, They're throwing 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.320 so much money at new ideas, and um, They've got 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.800 like the Google Reader, where they're trying to scan every 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.760 book in existence and right on the web for free. 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.600 There's the Google take Over the Planet project, where in 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:13.840 they're all going to put microchips in our brain while 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:19.240 we're sleeping. Star Yeah, the Death Star. Yeah. Um, so yeah, 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.760 I think they're still innovative now, they are in different directions. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.040 I think I was probably just thinking of the base 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.320 Google basement. But yeah, you're totally Chuck. We were talking 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.480 about ways to fight the period principle, and there's actually 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.320 one more way and that's actually, uh the up to 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.200 the employee what to just have to go get them 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:41.320 to uh to do good work. No, No, it's to 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.920 have the smart and wherewith all to actually say, you 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:46.800 know what, this guy is about to promote me into 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.760 my level of incompetence and I'm not gonna do it. 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:54.080 Think again, buddy, So you can just turn down and promotion. Yeah, 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.040 but it's so unheard of in the state. It goes 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:57.680 back to the money thing. Now, if it was the 0:16:57.720 --> 0:16:59.840 kind of thing where they would give someone raises with 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:01.880 out the promotion, I think people might be more inclined 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:03.880 to do that. Well, yeah, he has to go hand 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.159 in hand with the companion piece, which is living without 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.600 as much money as you could have did. I'd be 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:12.880 all over that more money and less responsibility. I think 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.520 that the Peter principal actually did speak to my debt 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.879 because he loved drafting. He loved drawing h V A 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.960 C aspects right, that was his thing, and actually towards 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.359 the end of his career he got tired of h 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.440 V A C. So he went over and learned refrigeration, 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.040 which was apparently totally different. I would have thought that 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.320 had fallen and fall into the same category, but I 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.880 guess not um. But he after like thirty forty years, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:37.560 he got bored with h V A C. But he 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.359 didn't try to move up. He just went to refrigeration. 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.840 And he actually I don't know if he ever turned 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:44.880 down a promotion or not, but he made it very 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:46.919 well known that he was quite happy doing what he 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.040 was doing. He did well for himself. Um, and he 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.960 never became an executive. He he just didn't want to. So, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.800 I mean, it can be done. And I'm wondering just 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.199 how much of an effect or impact the Peter principal 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.399 reading the book had on. But yeah, this is called 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.560 Peter's perry, which is basically turning down a promotion. If 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.359 you don't have the guts to turn out promotion um, 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.119 or if your spouse would murder you if if he 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.479 or she found out that you turned down to promotion, UM, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.760 you can actually self sabotage. Yeah. Do you want to 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.000 hear a couple of examples that Peter gives, Yeah, I'd 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:23.760 love to. One is, um, basically wearing too much Perfumer cologne. 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.480 Really nobody wants to be around you like that, you know, 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.400 but it's not so it's not such an obvious uh 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:36.560 social miss grace, disgrace. They're gonna say anything I love. Yeah, 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.080 I know what you're gonna say. Go ahead, parking in 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:43.440 the company president's reserve parking space. Yeah again, you're you're 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:45.920 just showing like I don't really care. I'm not going 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.719 to look out for you unnecessarily. My favorite one is 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.240 to kind of subtly give the impression that you lead 0:18:54.320 --> 0:19:00.000 a morally questionable personal life. Yeah, which we do every 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.840 week twice a week. Actually, I might have a bit 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.680 of self sabotage and you think me too, So, Chuck, 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:09.840 either one of us want to manage anyone. You know. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.840 I was avoiding that because you know, I I the Perry. 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:15.800 I fell on one side. I did I go to 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:19.480 the self sabotage side. I don't want to manage anybody either, Chuck. Now, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.520 I have a hard hard time managing myself and you. 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.480 So there you got Peter principal. Peter principle. It's done. 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.000 If you want to learn more about it, or if 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:30.840 you basically want to read the article, Chuck it I 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.639 just covered a hundred and ten percent. You can go 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.320 to how stuff works dot com, our beloved website and 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.879 type Peter principle into the handy search bar, which means, 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.679 since I just said handy search bar, that it's time 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:50.119 for listener mail. Listener mail, Josh, I'm gonna call this 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.359 one frightening listener mail. Oh yeah, I don't know if 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.320 you've read this one, because you usually email me and 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:57.800 say did you read this one? And I didn't get 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.600 that on this one, Okay. I I'm writing to share 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.720 an experience I've had in this related to the Dejabu episode. 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.800 And this is from Drowsy Doug and his Dreadful Dreams 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.440 in Portland, Oregon, Grove Doug So Doug says, at times 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.480 when I'm sleeping, my mind wakes in the middle of 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.320 the night, but my body does not. My eyes open, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.359 and I can see the bedroom from a sideways angle, 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:20.719 the dark shadows of the dresser, of the tree outside 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:22.760 the window, of my arms and legs curled up below me. 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.280 Yet I cannot move. The frightening thing it's already frightening, 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:28.560 to ask me. The frightening thing about this is that 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.960 though my mind is aware of the reality of my situation, 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.040 it vacillates in and out of the subconscious, creating visions. 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.879 It seem all too real. So he goes on for 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.280 a minute here, but I'm gonna skipped down one particular moment, 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.679 which stands up my mind is this. I opened my 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:44.400 eyes in the middle of the night. I was lying 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.000 in my bed on my back, paralyzed, watching the image 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.159 of someone standing at the foot of my bed in 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.840 a pig suit. What yes, in a costume animal. I 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:57.320 was waiting for that, because he actually put that in parentheticals. 0:20:58.000 --> 0:20:59.639 I know that I had my eyes open because I 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.800 slowly came to consciousness the pig man fading into the 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.600 darkness like a blurry image, and I hadn't closed my 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.480 eyes the whole time. It was as if my mind 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.080 just projected and imagine image onto what I was actually seeing. 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.359 Once I even got up from my own bed, walked 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.280 into the bathroom, and in the darkness, the reflection of 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.600 my own face was stretched and contorted, and I was 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:26.480 bleeding black liquid out of my mouth. But then I 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:30.560 woke up and I was fine. So drowsy Doug says, Now, 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:32.240 I'm sure you get lots of weirdos writing you, but 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.760 I assure you I'm a pretty normal guy all except 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.040 for this terrifying waking nightmare syndrome. I don't believe in 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:39.879 possession or ghosts or anything like that, so I'm not 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.160 supposing the supernatural yet. The occurrence of these dreams both 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.679 fascinates and terrifies me. I've come to recognize the exact 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.240 creeping feeling of it coming on. Yet by that point 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:51.240 there's nothing I can do but try to talk myself 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.920 in the waking. Is this common? Have you ever heard 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.159 of this? And why can't they be about Hollywood hotties 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.600