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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know?

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Speaker 1: Front House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. There's Chuck Bryant about fall Asleep and I'm

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Speaker 1: Josh Clark. This is stuff you should know. How's it going?

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Speaker 1: You just went on? He Hall, I totally did. Didn't

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Speaker 1: I get the price tag? I'm a little hat. Did

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Speaker 1: you watch that as a kid? No, I never did.

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Speaker 1: That was more solid gold guy, Yeah, see that now

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Speaker 1: Big Time and Muppets. Muppets Actually I think came on

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Speaker 1: before after solid Gold, cal Burnet schell. Yeah. Yeah, My

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Speaker 1: mom was a big tribe. Me too. I thought Tim

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Speaker 1: Conway was the funniest human being. You're gonna bring up

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Speaker 1: to Tim Conway. Chuck always talks about Tim Conway's assess it.

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Speaker 1: It's always about Tim Conway. Tim Conway, This Tim Conway

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Speaker 1: that you know what? Never happened to Tim Conway. He

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Speaker 1: never got promoted to a job he wasn't qualified for.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing this way too long, Chuck, way too long. Together.

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Speaker 1: You can predict my every move. He can just point

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Speaker 1: and he knows what I'm about to do. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: wonder if I actually do things because he's telling me

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Speaker 1: to with his mind. Yeah, tell me that power, dude. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'd be in big trouble, he would. Yeah, so chuck, Um,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the Peter principle. Have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: of this before? Well, I've read your article when it

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Speaker 1: was initially published a while ago, But I mean, were

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Speaker 1: you disappointed with it then too? I actually thought it

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Speaker 1: was better than I do now. But I see, I

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Speaker 1: grew up with this, Like my dad had this book

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Speaker 1: and it was like it was like sixties kind of

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Speaker 1: like intelligent ha ha ha kind of joke, you know,

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Speaker 1: like hotail party humor. Yeah, and I grew up around

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, so I you know, intelligence. So uh,

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Speaker 1: this was like the Peter principal to me is something

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Speaker 1: that like I've known forever. So it's odd to meet

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Speaker 1: people who don't who hadn't really heard of it before. Well,

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Speaker 1: my parents were both educators and maybe, um, like I

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Speaker 1: knew nothing about business in corporate life and that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. My dad was an engineer, a train engineer. Yeah, dude, dude, no, no, okay,

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Speaker 1: Now he's a mechanical engineer. For untrained. Yep. Okay, so, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: that what we're talking about is based on a uh,

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Speaker 1: let's see, I think it's a nineteen sixty nine book,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, nineteen sixty nine, we'll say, somewhere in there,

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Speaker 1: and it's called the Peter Principal Why Things Always Go Wrong?

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Speaker 1: And it definitely was based on an article written by

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Speaker 1: a guy named Dr Lawrence J. Peter who was a

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Speaker 1: an educator, and apparently it was an Esquire magazine initially

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Speaker 1: in January nineteen sixty seven. Yes, there was a huge

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Speaker 1: response to it, right uh. And basically what it was

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Speaker 1: it was tongue in cheek. It's an unnatural law like

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Speaker 1: Parkinson's law, which we'll get to, right sure, or Murphy's law,

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Speaker 1: which we won't get to. We've already done that one,

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Speaker 1: I think. Or was that pre Chuck. I think it

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Speaker 1: was pre Chuck. Those days don't exist in my mind.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah. So anyway, Chuck, it's a it's a kind

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Speaker 1: of tongue in cheek, but it actually does reveal, um,

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Speaker 1: kind of this this rye observation that you know, all

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Speaker 1: of us have seen at one time or another that eventually,

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Speaker 1: if you promote somebody based on good work, you're going

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Speaker 1: to promote them to a point where they're no longer

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Speaker 1: they're so far out of their field they've become incompetent

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Speaker 1: in their current job. That's pretty funny. There's one stertling

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Speaker 1: example that comes to mind. Oh, I don't know, back

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Speaker 1: in the heavy days of two thousand five, maybe late

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Speaker 1: August early September two thousand five, a little thing called

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Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans with a vengeance. And there's this,

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Speaker 1: um I think it's a federal agency and it's charged

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Speaker 1: with handling natural disasters or disasters of any kind that

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Speaker 1: occur in the US. That would be the Federal Emergency

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Speaker 1: Management Agency a FEMA. Uh And um, it just so

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Speaker 1: happened that in late August of two thousand five, FEMA

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Speaker 1: was headed by a guy named Michael Brown who you

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Speaker 1: may know and love is Brownie. So Brownie was running

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Speaker 1: the show when herr Kane Katrina hit and basically it

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Speaker 1: took days for the FEDS to respond. I remember reading

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Speaker 1: an article or several maybe where Bush was questioning whether

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Speaker 1: it's even the federal government's role to help out in

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Speaker 1: this kind of disaster. Right, Well, sure enough, FEMA finally

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Speaker 1: gets around to helping. I think they got a few

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Speaker 1: bottles of water down there and truck some people out.

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Speaker 1: That kind of thing. Uh. And amid this complete cluster

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Speaker 1: of a rescue humanitarian mission, mismanagement totally and in every

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Speaker 1: form of the word. Yeah, the good people of FEMA,

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Speaker 1: and we want to say we're probably working very hard,

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Speaker 1: but it was missing. It was a top down day

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Speaker 1: and and just ease off. I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna bail Brownie out here in a second. Um. But

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Speaker 1: amid this this bungled crisis rescue mission, Bush goes down

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Speaker 1: to New Orleans and says, Brownie, you're doing a heck

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Speaker 1: of a job, which he wasn't now and he even

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Speaker 1: knew he wasn't. No, this is not judgment on our part, right,

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Speaker 1: I think even while the the rescue operation or the

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Speaker 1: crisis alleviation operations going on, Brownie famously said, can I

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Speaker 1: quit now? Why made me feel bad for the guy? Yeah? No,

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Speaker 1: I agree, he's in over his head. I feel bad

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Speaker 1: for him. Two And he was in way over his

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Speaker 1: head why because of the Peter principle, because he was

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Speaker 1: promoted to a position he was not qualified to manage correct,

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Speaker 1: he period he was formerly his job right before the

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Speaker 1: head of FEMA. He was in charge of the Commission

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Speaker 1: on Judges for the Arabian Horse Association. He's good at

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Speaker 1: it too. Yeah, he excelled in that position, right. That

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Speaker 1: was part of the reason why I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of helping your buddy out I

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Speaker 1: had to do with it. So, which which everybody does?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I got this job because of a friend,

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Speaker 1: So that did you? Really? I got this job by

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Speaker 1: my own blood sweat and tears, pal, blood sweat and tears, Josh,

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Speaker 1: great band agreed, So is earth wind and fire right,

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Speaker 1: But earth wind and fire won't get you a job.

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Speaker 1: Blood sweat and tears as well, agreed? So well, cool

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Speaker 1: in the gang. Okay, so Chuck um, you're right there.

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Speaker 1: There is a certain level of nepotism or I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what it's called when you get friends jobs. Is

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Speaker 1: it still nepotism relatively familiar? Yeah? Yeah, I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: that we'll figure it out. Um so yeah. So, but

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Speaker 1: Brownie doesn't fit the classic definition of the Peter principle

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Speaker 1: because he got his job in large part because he

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Speaker 1: knew the president right, Is it usually someone who's promoted

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Speaker 1: from within? Is that the distinction? Yes? Okay, yeah, So

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Speaker 1: what happens is you, I use the example in this

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Speaker 1: article of a web designer. Think of when a guy's

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Speaker 1: in DEBV right, right, So you're just excelling at your work.

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Speaker 1: You're you're you're working your tail off. Everything you do

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Speaker 1: is just golden. You're born developer. Right. Well, if you

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Speaker 1: do that long enough, and you get to know the

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Speaker 1: people around you long enough, you'll probably get promoted to

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Speaker 1: a position of of manager where you're still over the

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Speaker 1: dev department, but you're now telling the dev department what

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Speaker 1: to do. Conceivably, if you're of a certain ilk, you

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Speaker 1: you would be able to kind of carry that out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if if you're capable of doing that. But let's say

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Speaker 1: that you are kind of good at that, and you

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Speaker 1: excel at that, but you're still really you're doing you're

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Speaker 1: walking behind other people and fixing their mistakes, that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. You're still doing developing. Let's say you excel

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Speaker 1: in that managerial position and you get promoted eventually out

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Speaker 1: of development, and maybe you're over development like you're the

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Speaker 1: ct O R, but you're no longer developing. Oh, you're managing,

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Speaker 1: You're working with budgets, you're hiring people, you're firing, completely

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Speaker 1: different skill set. You're likely going to be incompetent unless

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Speaker 1: you're a born manager and you're good with budgets, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: dealing with CEOs and CEOs and stuff like that. Right,

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Speaker 1: that actually happened, same exact scenario at my last job,

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Speaker 1: a web developer, and he was great at that. They

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Speaker 1: promoted him, and um, he was not a good manager

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Speaker 1: of people. No, I think. I think it takes a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of person. It's like sales, right, I can't

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Speaker 1: sell anything. Come on, come on, I think dude. Uh no,

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Speaker 1: I I can't. Like I'm no good at sales. Um,

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Speaker 1: I also suck at serving. I was a terrible waiter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was a decent waiter. I sucked at it. That's good. Thanks, Um,

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Speaker 1: so thanks? Why is that good? Well, because that means

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Speaker 1: you don't have to be a waiter. That's true. Well,

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Speaker 1: you were good at it, and you're not a waiter.

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Speaker 1: Well true, I'm a writer. It's only one letter different. Agreed. Um.

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Speaker 1: So let's say you you you do get promoted to

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Speaker 1: CTO and you're doing hiring and firing. Now here's where

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Speaker 1: the Peter principle, which has just occurred because you've been

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Speaker 1: promoted to your level of incompetence, Here's where it becomes

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Speaker 1: a vicious cycle. Right, right, do you want to take where?

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Speaker 1: Because okay, uh, the the since you're hiring and firing people,

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Speaker 1: you're probably also likely promoting people. So if you're an

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Speaker 1: incompetent manager, then you are probably going to make terrible

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Speaker 1: decisions on who to promote. So the problem with it

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Speaker 1: is that eventually, in a hierarchy which all businesses are

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Speaker 1: based on, or it's a top down, top down process

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Speaker 1: for pyramid, most of the work is being done by

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Speaker 1: the lower levels the base of the pyramid, and then

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Speaker 1: you go further and further up, and the least amount

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Speaker 1: of work is being done by the people at the top. Supposedly,

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Speaker 1: I hear. Uh, So eventually the top of the hierarchy

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Speaker 1: becomes populated exclusively by incompetent people in a worst case

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Speaker 1: Peter principal scenario. But if this is what I found

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Speaker 1: most interesting is that it um unless you are what

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Speaker 1: he called uh super incompetent quote unquote, then you won't

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Speaker 1: get fired. No, you'll just continue along and basically what

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Speaker 1: happens is is mediocrity takes hold. Doesn't mean you're awful

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Speaker 1: and that you're gonna make decisions that will destroy the company,

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Speaker 1: but your mediocre. And since there isn't a process of

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Speaker 1: demotion in this country, or maybe there isn't in any country. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and the corporate structure at least you, you can't be

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Speaker 1: demoted without it looking like failed, defailed exactly. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: they can't just say, you know what, this is quite right,

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Speaker 1: you're you're better at your other job, so why don't

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Speaker 1: we just put you back there? Um, And you'll even

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Speaker 1: make more money doing so well that that's a real

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Speaker 1: solution to the Pewter principle. Is number one, installing a

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Speaker 1: mechanism where you if it if you're not working out,

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Speaker 1: you get to go back to what you're doing, but

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Speaker 1: without the stigma failure. The other the other, this is

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Speaker 1: the one I subscribed to, is UM offering increased compensation

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Speaker 1: without promotion. I subscribe to that as well. Think about it,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like most people accept promotions and uh be

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Speaker 1: based on the increase in salary, right right. I just

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Speaker 1: really want to manage somebody. Usually I really want to

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Speaker 1: go make more money. Yes, but those are probably people

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Speaker 1: who are born managers. Yeah, but I would say the

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Speaker 1: prestige and the title and the money is even above that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the money's at the top, right, Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: if you could, if you could set up your business

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Speaker 1: in such a way that you are paying people, you're

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Speaker 1: giving them increased pay, vastly increased pay, like the kind

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Speaker 1: that you would get if you got a promotion without

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Speaker 1: promoting them, then you're going to avoid the Pewter principle altogether.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that that you basically create a a

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Speaker 1: class structure where there are just people out there who

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Speaker 1: are you know, executives and that's what they do, and

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Speaker 1: then you have people out there who are just developers.

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Speaker 1: It's actually very socialistic in nature, it is, you know,

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Speaker 1: uh Parkinson. Yeah. So there's another dude, an English historian.

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Speaker 1: His name is C. Northcote, c Northcote Parkinson, great name,

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Speaker 1: thank you, uh. And he wrote in the Economist magazine

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five his first law, which was work

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Speaker 1: expands so as to fill time available for its completion.

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Speaker 1: I think most people have heard this, and I think

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Speaker 1: I might agree with the guy. Oh yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: give somebody a week to do a project, they'll take

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Speaker 1: a week. If you give them two days, they'll get

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Speaker 1: it done in two days. Same project too, Yeah exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so like Murphy's law. Yeah, it's an unnatural law. Exactly. Um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, what the white chuck just mentioned that is

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Speaker 1: because um, one of the there's actually a contrary theory

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Speaker 1: to um, the Peter principle. It was this lazare. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's the he wrote, I'm sorry, an article not a book,

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Speaker 1: called the Peter principal a theory of decline, and he

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Speaker 1: put the uh the onus uh for responsibility onto the

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Speaker 1: employee rather than an incompetent manager who incompetently promote somebody

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Speaker 1: who shouldn't be right. He said that what happens is

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Speaker 1: you have your average employee who's looking for that promotion,

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Speaker 1: probably because they want more money, right. Probably, so they're

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Speaker 1: they're working, work and work and working like you know,

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Speaker 1: eighty hour weeks and um, just putting in all this time,

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Speaker 1: neglecting family, all that. Um. And once that, once that's noticed,

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Speaker 1: after a certain amount of time, usually they will get

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Speaker 1: a promotion. The thing is, it's not that's not sustainable. Behavior. Right, Well,

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Speaker 1: that's when the trouble hits. You rest on your laurels

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Speaker 1: once you finally hit that promotion. Yeah, and once you've

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Speaker 1: gotten the salary. Because again, businesses don't have any kind

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Speaker 1: of fail safe put into knock you back down. When

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Speaker 1: you do do that, right, you either get fired or

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Speaker 1: you just keep doing the same job. And most likely

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna get fired, just gonna do a mediocre job.

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Speaker 1: But Lazarre Lazier said that it was the employees basically

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Speaker 1: creating a deception that made people who shouldn't be promoted

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Speaker 1: promoted because they're being promoted based on their work ethic.

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Speaker 1: That was actually an artificial work ethic. Right. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of cool too. I like all this stuff. I thought

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Speaker 1: you hated this article. Oh, I was just pulling your leg.

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't toy with me. It's much it's much more

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Speaker 1: interesting when we talk about it than when I read it.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, I agree. I agree, Chuck. We've taken

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Speaker 1: some kind of fluffy articles and done some things we

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Speaker 1: should you know we should do. We should start a podcast.

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Speaker 1: What a good you like talking about? I don't even

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Speaker 1: know what a podcast is, dude. Uh, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Peter principal also doesn't just apply to employees, right, it

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Speaker 1: applies to innovation as well, right buddy, Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: the same exact principle. And this was an essay called

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Speaker 1: the Peter Principle of Innovation by Nitton. I've never heard

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Speaker 1: that word. Nitton Bore Bore one car. Yeah, what a

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Speaker 1: great name. And um he basically said, the same thing

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Speaker 1: applies to innovation young he or she um proposed as

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Speaker 1: the a young company has room to innovate, producing new ideas,

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Speaker 1: advancing old ideas, and the same thing happens. At some point,

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Speaker 1: the innovation turns stagnant. Yeah, but then the reason why

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Speaker 1: it turns stagnant is because eventually you hit a home

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Speaker 1: run and you say, okay, well this one thing we

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Speaker 1: just did just made us a billion dollars, let's keep

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Speaker 1: doing it over and over again, and everything else kind

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Speaker 1: of falls to the wayside. So yeah, innovation becomes stagnant.

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Speaker 1: What happens is the people who are still innovators go

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Speaker 1: off found their own company and do the same thing,

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Speaker 1: and it just keeps happening exponentially, this cycle of innovation

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Speaker 1: and stagnation. Like I think Google will probably a good example.

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Speaker 1: It's like they've completely mastered search on the Internet at

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Speaker 1: this point, seemingly, and they've innovated their company structure in

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Speaker 1: their company model to a point where people have left

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Speaker 1: Google and started their own company. Sure, I I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that it's a lack of innovation, though

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Speaker 1: they do a lot of I don't think they've hit

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Speaker 1: stagnation yet. You don't think so? No, man, They're throwing

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Speaker 1: so much money at new ideas, and um, They've got

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Speaker 1: like the Google Reader, where they're trying to scan every

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Speaker 1: book in existence and right on the web for free.

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Speaker 1: There's the Google take Over the Planet project, where in

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Speaker 1: they're all going to put microchips in our brain while

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Speaker 1: we're sleeping. Star Yeah, the Death Star. Yeah. Um, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think they're still innovative now, they are in different directions.

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Speaker 1: I think I was probably just thinking of the base

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Speaker 1: Google basement. But yeah, you're totally Chuck. We were talking

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Speaker 1: about ways to fight the period principle, and there's actually

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Speaker 1: one more way and that's actually, uh the up to

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Speaker 1: the employee what to just have to go get them

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Speaker 1: to uh to do good work. No, No, it's to

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Speaker 1: have the smart and wherewith all to actually say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, this guy is about to promote me into

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Speaker 1: my level of incompetence and I'm not gonna do it.

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Speaker 1: Think again, buddy, So you can just turn down and promotion. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's so unheard of in the state. It goes

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Speaker 1: back to the money thing. Now, if it was the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing where they would give someone raises with

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Speaker 1: out the promotion, I think people might be more inclined

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Speaker 1: to do that. Well, yeah, he has to go hand

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Speaker 1: in hand with the companion piece, which is living without

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Speaker 1: as much money as you could have did. I'd be

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Speaker 1: all over that more money and less responsibility. I think

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Speaker 1: that the Peter principal actually did speak to my debt

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Speaker 1: because he loved drafting. He loved drawing h V A

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Speaker 1: C aspects right, that was his thing, and actually towards

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Speaker 1: the end of his career he got tired of h

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Speaker 1: V A C. So he went over and learned refrigeration,

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Speaker 1: which was apparently totally different. I would have thought that

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Speaker 1: had fallen and fall into the same category, but I

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Speaker 1: guess not um. But he after like thirty forty years,

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Speaker 1: he got bored with h V A C. But he

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Speaker 1: didn't try to move up. He just went to refrigeration.

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Speaker 1: And he actually I don't know if he ever turned

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Speaker 1: down a promotion or not, but he made it very

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Speaker 1: well known that he was quite happy doing what he

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Speaker 1: was doing. He did well for himself. Um, and he

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Speaker 1: never became an executive. He he just didn't want to. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it can be done. And I'm wondering just

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Speaker 1: how much of an effect or impact the Peter principal

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Speaker 1: reading the book had on. But yeah, this is called

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Speaker 1: Peter's perry, which is basically turning down a promotion. If

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Speaker 1: you don't have the guts to turn out promotion um,

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Speaker 1: or if your spouse would murder you if if he

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Speaker 1: or she found out that you turned down to promotion, UM,

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Speaker 1: you can actually self sabotage. Yeah. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: hear a couple of examples that Peter gives, Yeah, I'd

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Speaker 1: love to. One is, um, basically wearing too much Perfumer cologne.

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Speaker 1: Really nobody wants to be around you like that, you know,

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Speaker 1: but it's not so it's not such an obvious uh

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Speaker 1: social miss grace, disgrace. They're gonna say anything I love. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know what you're gonna say. Go ahead, parking in

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Speaker 1: the company president's reserve parking space. Yeah again, you're you're

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Speaker 1: just showing like I don't really care. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to look out for you unnecessarily. My favorite one is

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Speaker 1: to kind of subtly give the impression that you lead

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Speaker 1: a morally questionable personal life. Yeah, which we do every

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Speaker 1: week twice a week. Actually, I might have a bit

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Speaker 1: of self sabotage and you think me too, So, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: either one of us want to manage anyone. You know.

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Speaker 1: I was avoiding that because you know, I I the Perry.

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Speaker 1: I fell on one side. I did I go to

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Speaker 1: the self sabotage side. I don't want to manage anybody either, Chuck. Now,

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Speaker 1: I have a hard hard time managing myself and you.

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Speaker 1: So there you got Peter principal. Peter principle. It's done.

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Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about it, or if

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Speaker 1: you basically want to read the article, Chuck it I

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Speaker 1: just covered a hundred and ten percent. You can go

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Speaker 1: to how stuff works dot com, our beloved website and

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Speaker 1: type Peter principle into the handy search bar, which means,

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Speaker 1: since I just said handy search bar, that it's time

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Speaker 1: for listener mail. Listener mail, Josh, I'm gonna call this

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Speaker 1: one frightening listener mail. Oh yeah, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you've read this one, because you usually email me and

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Speaker 1: say did you read this one? And I didn't get

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Speaker 1: that on this one, Okay. I I'm writing to share

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Speaker 1: an experience I've had in this related to the Dejabu episode.

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Speaker 1: And this is from Drowsy Doug and his Dreadful Dreams

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Speaker 1: in Portland, Oregon, Grove Doug So Doug says, at times

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Speaker 1: when I'm sleeping, my mind wakes in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night, but my body does not. My eyes open,

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Speaker 1: and I can see the bedroom from a sideways angle,

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Speaker 1: the dark shadows of the dresser, of the tree outside

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Speaker 1: the window, of my arms and legs curled up below me.

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Speaker 1: Yet I cannot move. The frightening thing it's already frightening,

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Speaker 1: to ask me. The frightening thing about this is that

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Speaker 1: though my mind is aware of the reality of my situation,

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Speaker 1: it vacillates in and out of the subconscious, creating visions.

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Speaker 1: It seem all too real. So he goes on for

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Speaker 1: a minute here, but I'm gonna skipped down one particular moment,

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Speaker 1: which stands up my mind is this. I opened my

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Speaker 1: eyes in the middle of the night. I was lying

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Speaker 1: in my bed on my back, paralyzed, watching the image

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Speaker 1: of someone standing at the foot of my bed in

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Speaker 1: a pig suit. What yes, in a costume animal. I

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Speaker 1: was waiting for that, because he actually put that in parentheticals.

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Speaker 1: I know that I had my eyes open because I

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Speaker 1: slowly came to consciousness the pig man fading into the

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Speaker 1: darkness like a blurry image, and I hadn't closed my

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Speaker 1: eyes the whole time. It was as if my mind

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Speaker 1: just projected and imagine image onto what I was actually seeing.

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Speaker 1: Once I even got up from my own bed, walked

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Speaker 1: into the bathroom, and in the darkness, the reflection of

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Speaker 1: my own face was stretched and contorted, and I was

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Speaker 1: bleeding black liquid out of my mouth. But then I

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Speaker 1: woke up and I was fine. So drowsy Doug says, Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you get lots of weirdos writing you, but

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Speaker 1: I assure you I'm a pretty normal guy all except

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Speaker 1: for this terrifying waking nightmare syndrome. I don't believe in

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Speaker 1: possession or ghosts or anything like that, so I'm not

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Speaker 1: supposing the supernatural yet. The occurrence of these dreams both

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Speaker 1: fascinates and terrifies me. I've come to recognize the exact

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Speaker 1: creeping feeling of it coming on. Yet by that point

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Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do but try to talk myself

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Speaker 1: in the waking. Is this common? Have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: of this? And why can't they be about Hollywood hotties

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Speaker 1: and not strangers and pig suits? So like, why can't

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Speaker 1: I see Giselle at the Yeah? Some he actually does

403
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Speaker 1: suffer from a recognized condition, and sadly I don't know

404
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: what it is. Yeah, it sounds called but when you

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Speaker 1: when your mind wakes before your body does, this is

406
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Speaker 1: pretty bad conscious of of your surroundings. It is a

407
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Speaker 1: recognized condition. Seeing first suitors, um is, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that is. And seeing yourself bleed like black ooze. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like there's a lot of self loathing. It's frightening.

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Speaker 1: Such your arm chair psychotrop Yeah, I literally have my

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Speaker 1: arm on a chair right now. Um. And then I

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Speaker 1: asked him if you've seen the movie Donnie Darko, because

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw that, but it was

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Speaker 1: very reminiscent of that. So a guy in a rabbit

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Speaker 1: suit and Frank the Rabbit, which is one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite movies. That's a great movie, is so well done

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Speaker 1: and so drowsy. Doug, dude, good luck. Wish we could

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Speaker 1: help you. I wish we could help Doug too. If

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Speaker 1: anybody out there has any clues to Doug's mystery, any

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Speaker 1: suggestions on maybe what Doug do eg drink Balerian root

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