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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of Iheartrading.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nol.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Paul mission controlled decads. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Stay away from windows tonight.

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Speaker 3: We are returning to a fascinating, troubling phenomenon. Since the

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Speaker 3: fall of the ussr oligarchs have exerted tremendous influence on

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Speaker 3: almost every aspect of Russian politics, from industry to state actions.

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Speaker 3: They run the largest companies. There are new Uni version

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Speaker 3: of Robert Barons or they were. As we'll see, they

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Speaker 3: are an increasingly endangered species. The official explanations for these

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Speaker 3: deaths from the Russian government run the gamut, from suicide

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Speaker 3: to accidental deaths, to family annihilations to death by toad poison.

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Speaker 3: Pretty Much everybody except Russia finds these official explanations don't

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Speaker 3: hold up to scrutiny. We're not diving into this one alone. Folks,

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Speaker 3: we are immensely fortunate to be joined yet again with

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Speaker 3: returning guest, the author, the filmmaker, the legendary conflict journalist

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Speaker 3: Jake Hanrahan. Jake, thanks for coming back on the show Man.

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Speaker 4: Hi mate, Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: Oh dude, we're so glad that you're here, Jake. We've

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Speaker 2: been listening through sat Oligarch and our heads are reeling.

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Speaker 2: We covered this topic a little while ago in an

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Speaker 2: episode a while back, and you know, at the time,

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Speaker 2: I think that was in twenty twenty two, guys like

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Speaker 2: Red at the tail end when some of this was

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Speaker 2: was pretty fresh and we just had, you know, some

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Speaker 2: stuff online to go on, right, like stuff that's being

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Speaker 2: written in Sky News Australia and other outlets. As we

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Speaker 2: get into this, I just want to ask, like, what

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Speaker 2: kind of sources have you been using to delve into

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Speaker 2: this topic and research it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's been why there's so much work is

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Speaker 4: having to go into this. So I'm working on this

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Speaker 4: with my colleague and friend, Sergei Slipchenko. He's a Ukrainian

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Speaker 4: journalist Juell National in Canada as well. He had to

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Speaker 4: you know, leave Ukraine when the war kicked off. I've

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Speaker 4: worked with him over there in Ukraine's really really good lad,

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Speaker 4: very very thorough in what he does. So when I

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Speaker 4: started looking into this, I realized, like, okay, I don't

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Speaker 4: speak Russian. There's going to be a level where, you know,

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Speaker 4: I just can't really get past. And then when you

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Speaker 4: reach out to people from Russia, they're either very hard

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Speaker 4: to contact or they're like, look, I'm not going on

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Speaker 4: the record here. I'm sorry, I'm just no, it's not

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Speaker 4: worth especially now the war is on. I was like, right, well,

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Speaker 4: this is going to be impossible. So a sports of surgery,

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Speaker 4: and he obviously had sources or knew of, you know,

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Speaker 4: vague people that we can speak to, and he speaks

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Speaker 4: Russian and he knows how the network's work, and he

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Speaker 4: knows how the kind of social media, and you know,

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Speaker 4: there are other ways around it. So yeah, really a

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Speaker 4: combination of I don't want to get too much into it,

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Speaker 4: but like kind of obscure Russian language sources which you

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Speaker 4: then have to like single handedly corroborate every single thing

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Speaker 4: and kind of work out right, what is from the government,

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Speaker 4: what is real, what is maybe room you know, what

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Speaker 4: I mean, And it's been a very very long process,

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Speaker 4: so it's a real amalgamation of stuff. But there have

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Speaker 4: also been like a lot of other reporters that have,

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Speaker 4: you know, like yourselves, dipped into it, looked at it

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Speaker 4: and been like, oh, there's another one, another one here.

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Speaker 4: Our job was kind of pulling them all together and

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Speaker 4: trying to work out what the connections are, and that

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Speaker 4: has proved very difficult, but it seems to be working.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's doing well. There's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 4: we could have put in that we were just like,

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Speaker 4: it's too we're not sure and we can't back it up,

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Speaker 4: you know, but it is. It kind of adds to everything,

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Speaker 4: and it's been a very weird process, as you'll see

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Speaker 4: as a series goes on. I mean we're already seeing

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Speaker 4: it now. There's a lot of connections to like oil

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Speaker 4: and gas. You know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, Jake, first things first.

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Speaker 6: I mean I think a lot of people probably have

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Speaker 6: a general idea of the answer to this, But in

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Speaker 6: your estimation or you know, what would you describe an

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Speaker 6: oligarch as and what makes it sort of a uniquely

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Speaker 6: Russian thing?

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Speaker 4: That's a good question, and I don't think it is

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Speaker 4: uniquely Russian, to be honest. I mean we've called it

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Speaker 4: a sad oligarch. Some of the people on the list

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Speaker 4: that have died that we're looking too. They might not

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Speaker 4: be necessarily like start up oligarchs, they might not fit

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Speaker 4: into that, but it's an easier way for Western audiences

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Speaker 4: to understand it. And it's a little bit of tongue

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Speaker 4: in cheek because a lot of the Western sources will

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Speaker 4: immediately call these people oligarchs, even if they're not really

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Speaker 4: you know, it's like, oh, Russian holigarch. Those guys are

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Speaker 4: so bad, and it's like, well, we have a very

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Speaker 4: similar thing in the West. We just call it lobbying, right,

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Speaker 4: I don't see any difference, you know. I mean my

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Speaker 4: country right now, so Richie Schunach, the current Prime minister,

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Speaker 4: his company firm just did like a billion dollar contract

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Speaker 4: with an oil company and lo and behold. This week

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Speaker 4: he's announced you know, new things, new measures that will

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Speaker 4: help that oil company. Why yeah, And it's like, well,

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Speaker 4: that's that in itself. I mean, you know, a healthy

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Speaker 4: country would have more focus on it. But you know,

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Speaker 4: Britain is what it is, and it's it's one of

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Speaker 4: these things where I really through this series, we don't

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Speaker 4: want to do the typical like ha ha, silly Russians,

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Speaker 4: They're so weird, look at what they do. It's like, no,

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Speaker 4: every every country does this, and as you see in

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Speaker 4: the series, a lot of other countries are connected to this,

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Speaker 4: you know, like Loue Coil for example, of just made

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Speaker 4: record profits. Why well, because loads of the oil fields

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Speaker 4: are running still in Europe with the help of EU

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Speaker 4: EU countries and they're making record profits when they're apparently

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Speaker 4: not really meant to because of you know, obviously the

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Speaker 4: brutal invasion of Ukraine. So it ties everybody in But

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Speaker 4: sorry to answer your question for us, it's someone that

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Speaker 4: has had these political influences, but they're a businessmen that

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Speaker 4: they're kind of meant to be outside of the politics

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Speaker 4: of it, right. So for example, a lot of these

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Speaker 4: people they brought up shares in lucrative oil companies that

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Speaker 4: are now half owned by the government I Gazprom, so

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Speaker 4: they can then influence politicians through various shares that they

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Speaker 4: have through business dealings basically politics. To be honest, an

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Speaker 4: hologarch is like a very specific sample of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's something that really resonates with me listening

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Speaker 3: through here. You've nailed it already. You've anticipated one of

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Speaker 3: my questions, Jake. Oligarchs, for anybody listening, are not a

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Speaker 3: uniquely Russian phenomenon, despite the way the West may report it.

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Speaker 3: There's an intensely disturbing pattern. You see this in one

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Speaker 3: of the I believe, the very first episode of Sad Oligarch.

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Speaker 3: You say, you point out that in the space of

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Speaker 3: less than a year, in nine months, more than a

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Speaker 3: dozen of these Russian oligarchs, or let's say people affiliated

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Speaker 3: with the Russian kleptocracy have died. Yeah, have done. Like

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Speaker 3: the scientist, right, they have died under mysterious circumstances. We

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Speaker 3: have to ask, you know, given your deep experiences as

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Speaker 3: a journalist and as the creative director of Popular Front,

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Speaker 3: what inspired you to dedicate your time to this. I

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Speaker 3: mean you're a busy guy, my friend.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I am. This projector has really reminded me of that.

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Speaker 4: You know, I might jump out of a window myself,

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Speaker 4: but it's been a very hectic one. But it feels

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Speaker 4: really important, you know. I think it's really interesting, and

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Speaker 4: I mean the short answer is, when looking through this,

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Speaker 4: I feel like it really it really, it's it's a

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Speaker 4: it's a kind of insulent way of showing the way

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Speaker 4: the real inner workings of Russia works. When you realize

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Speaker 4: how connected these things are to the government and how

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Speaker 4: ruthless some of these murders or mysterious deaths are, it

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Speaker 4: gives you, in my opinion, a much more realistic look

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Speaker 4: behind the mask, behind the curtain. And again, every country's

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Speaker 4: h you know, in my opinion, well, factually true, I

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Speaker 4: think every country is kind of leading government have skeletons

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Speaker 4: in their closets or doing bad stuff or whatever. But

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Speaker 4: this is a very unique phenomena where this many people

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Speaker 4: die with all pretty close affiliations this quickly, and as

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Speaker 4: we already know, Russia kind of, in one of their words,

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Speaker 4: like perfected the art of like accidental deaths, which are

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Speaker 4: actually assassinations. So I guess that's the short answer. But

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Speaker 4: I mean it kind of came it's weird way. It

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Speaker 4: came about. Like I was I was looking at something

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Speaker 4: on four Chan, like not I wasn't like browsing for chance,

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Speaker 4: but I was looking for some really rude memes. No,

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Speaker 4: I'm joking. I was just like I was on there

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Speaker 4: for like research, and I just happened to come across

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Speaker 4: this like list that some like four channel had made,

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Speaker 4: like it was it was about like six or seven

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Speaker 4: of these. It was like Russian hologarics die. And I

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Speaker 4: was like, huh, like surely not, you know, like this

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Speaker 4: is some four chan nonsense. So I looked at it

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Speaker 4: into it, and I just kind didn't really think about it,

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Speaker 4: and then it was just on my mind. I was like,

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Speaker 4: I want to know, like is that actually like is

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Speaker 4: that four chan nonsense or is that legit? Some of

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Speaker 4: them it was like, yeah, it was nonsense, but there

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Speaker 4: was enough of them on the list. As I was

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Speaker 4: looking into it to be like, hang on, like this

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Speaker 4: is a bit weird now, and then as I got

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Speaker 4: into it, I was like, this is this is fascinating.

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Speaker 4: And my whole career I've wanted to work out how

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Speaker 4: to do like true crime, but in my style, if

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Speaker 4: you like the way I kind of do things. I'm

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Speaker 4: not really into the kind of, you know, the more

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Speaker 4: tuitous shock kind of true crime stuff. I really like

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Speaker 4: the old school kind of true crime. Like I used

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Speaker 4: to be a big fan of this. I am a

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Speaker 4: big fan of this book called Midnight in the Garden

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Speaker 4: of Good and Evil. Yes, yeah, right, great book, and

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Speaker 4: that was my introduction to true crime years and years ago.

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Speaker 4: So when I see the new what I consider kind

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Speaker 4: of new true crime, I'm like, that's not really what

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Speaker 4: it was meant to be about. It was actually quite

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Speaker 4: journalistically heavy and you know, had a narrative, sure, but

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Speaker 4: it was very kind of worthwhile reporting. And it don't

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Speaker 4: get me wrong, a lot of true crime is still

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Speaker 4: it's just not the ones I was seeing so often.

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Speaker 4: So I was like, you know what, let me let

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Speaker 4: me look into this and maybe this can be my

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Speaker 4: like true crime project, if you like. And it's very

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Speaker 4: topical and it exposes a lot within like the Kremlin,

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Speaker 4: and yeah, it just kind of came together and I

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Speaker 4: kind of realized, Like early on, I was like, this

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Speaker 4: is gonna be a big project, but it just felt

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Speaker 4: like really worth it. Like the more we looked into it,

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Speaker 4: each case was like are you kidding me? Like, you know,

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Speaker 4: in the coincidences get to the point where you're like,

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Speaker 4: come on, like and when it hit that feeling, I

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Speaker 4: was like, yeah, this this needs Yeah, let's do this, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, well, can we can we get into the fact

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Speaker 2: that several of these people have died not in Russia

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Speaker 2: or not in an even you know, immediately close country

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Speaker 2: to Russia. I'm thinking about Mikhail Watform who died in

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Speaker 2: Surrey or was found dead in England. So like when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about these guys being investigated in and you know,

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Speaker 2: Russia taking an action potentially, maybe do we think that

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Speaker 2: you're operating in England and in Spain.

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Speaker 4: I I this is the thing. So we say at

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Speaker 4: the very start of the first episode, this is real life,

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Speaker 4: and they aren't. Really We're not the police, you know,

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Speaker 4: so we can't close any cases. So a lot of

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Speaker 4: the deaths, you know, you have to say, well, look,

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Speaker 4: this is weird. Here's what happened, and here's why. It's

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Speaker 4: an extreme coincidence. If it is, and here's our theory.

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Speaker 4: It's either A or B. And I think one theory

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Speaker 4: could be yeah, probably, and I think that there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of evidence to suggest that's possible. I mean, it's

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Speaker 4: already happened. I mean, look at Litvinenko. You know, they

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Speaker 4: got him in Britain. He was poisoned. If anyone doesn't know,

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Speaker 4: and they the Salesbury poisoning as well. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: they literally killed the brit by accident in the process

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Speaker 4: of it. It's just it's really not at all unlikely.

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Speaker 4: You know. I think any any government as powerful as Russia,

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Speaker 4: any country as powerful as that, whether it be the US, Russia, whatever,

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Speaker 4: they got people all over the place doing all sorts

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Speaker 4: of stuff that we don't know about. And it doesn't

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Speaker 4: always necessarily mean it's the government either, you know, like

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of odd business dealings going on, and

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Speaker 4: they might say, hey, this guy's got to go, and

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Speaker 4: we don't like him. I know a guy we got,

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Speaker 4: you know, and it is how it is, and and oh,

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Speaker 4: you know, a lot of it is just a lot

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Speaker 4: of people falling downstairs and out of windows and murdering

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Speaker 4: the whole families and it you know, it's just a

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Speaker 4: very big convincident. But I think that's highly unlikely. And

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Speaker 4: I do think probably some of them, there are some

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Speaker 4: things within each one where there's like that bit of

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Speaker 4: it might be a coincidence. And I fully went into

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Speaker 4: this me and Sergey said, like, if we think that

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Speaker 4: this is literally just a coincidence, we are gonna flat

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Speaker 4: out say it, and we're still gonna report it, because

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Speaker 4: you can't only look at the ones that are mysterious

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Speaker 4: and dodgy, even if you boil it down and it's not.

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Speaker 4: But every single one so far, where eight episodes in,

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Speaker 4: has been extremely strange. You know, this next one that's coming.

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Speaker 4: Dan Rappaport, he was he actually died in America. He

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Speaker 4: died in DC flat a window, and you know, we thought,

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Speaker 4: I looked at us as like, right, this is gonna

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Speaker 4: be the one where it's like, yeah, this is just

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Speaker 4: an accident. And then the more we looked into it, Oh,

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Speaker 4: he made his money in oil and gas in Russia.

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Speaker 4: Oh he was anti pootin. Oh he had to flee Russia.

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Speaker 4: He used to have a nightclub where all the oligarchs

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Speaker 4: went to. And it's like hmm, I don't know. Oh

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Speaker 4: and another guy fell out, yeah, a couple of days

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Speaker 4: before him. It's yeah, it's strange.

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Speaker 3: The Silent Killer when.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, there's even a joke on like, you know,

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Speaker 4: a surgery was showing me like kind of social Russian sorry,

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Speaker 4: Russian social media and things like that. There's even a

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Speaker 4: running joke of like you know, oh, you might catch

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Speaker 4: a disease like falling out of a window disease. You know,

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Speaker 4: like yeah, be careful. You might fall out of a

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Speaker 4: window tomorrow, you know. And it's it's become a joke there.

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Speaker 5: It's the new defenestration, you know, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yah, Yeah, It's just a weird thing to me

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Speaker 2: because we're you know, we're talking about if if let's

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Speaker 2: say it was a Russian operation, any you know, one

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Speaker 2: of these deaths, right, and it happens in Russia. My assumption,

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Speaker 2: and maybe this is wrong, is that you can control

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Speaker 2: the narrative a lot more if the investigating body is

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Speaker 2: more or less under your control. Right, But then if

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Speaker 2: you're in you know, if you're in England or Britain,

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Speaker 2: if you're in the US, if you're in Spain, you know,

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Speaker 2: it does feel like maybe it's a bit harder to

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Speaker 2: control the way the investigation goes, which I don't know,

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Speaker 2: just to me presents a problem that and maybe they

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Speaker 2: don't care. Maybe if it's an actual operation, they don't

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Speaker 2: care if any links are made.

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Speaker 3: I mean, polonium is a pretty specific poison, right, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's that and that that that that point brings us

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Speaker 3: to something else that I really appreciate. The the points

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Speaker 3: that you and Sergey continually return to, uh, there's objectivity

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Speaker 3: in this reporting and in these investigations. And even when

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Speaker 3: we as audience members are thinking, oh, yeah, no, Vladimir

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Speaker 3: Putin had that guy killed. Uh, you're doing the ethical

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Speaker 3: thing and saying we have to We can, we can

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Speaker 3: bring in speculation, we can make connections, but we have

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Speaker 3: to be absolutely uh, maintaining our integrity when we look

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Speaker 3: at these competing theories. You have early on an interview

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Speaker 3: via a Russian translator with with what I think we

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Speaker 3: could call an actual oligarch who believes he's been targeted

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Speaker 3: in the past for assassination, and in that interchange you

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Speaker 3: cite two competing theories about assassinations. Jake, I really liked

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Speaker 3: that you asked him. One of the big ones you said,

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Speaker 3: are these the two theories are one. These murders are

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Speaker 3: standing out because the system the operators are kind of

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Speaker 3: on a downward spiral. They're getting sloppy, or they're purposely

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Speaker 3: leaving breadcrumbs to say, hey, you can't prove it, but

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Speaker 3: everyone knows this was Russia. What do you think about

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Speaker 3: those theories?

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Speaker 4: I think I think the latter is in my opinion,

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Speaker 4: more likely. It's well, well, I think he's a mixer

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Speaker 4: of both, to be honest with you. But I remember

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Speaker 4: years ago I read this great book called Nothing Is

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Speaker 4: RealD and Everything Is Possible, and it's about this guy.

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Speaker 4: He's like a Russian and British, you know, like I

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Speaker 4: think his mother was Russian or his dad, whatever one was.

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Speaker 4: The mother or the lad was British and he grew

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Speaker 4: up in England. He grew up in Russia and he

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Speaker 4: was It's a really interesting book looking at the reality

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Speaker 4: TV boom so like Big Brother. Right. So this guy

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Speaker 4: worked in like the mid two thousands in that in

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Speaker 4: England and then for whatever reasons, he just wasn't getting

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Speaker 4: any work. There was some issues whatever, So he said,

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Speaker 4: you know what, I'm going to go to Russia and

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Speaker 4: do the same work in the same industry. And through

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Speaker 4: that lens he really paints this picture of where the

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Speaker 4: kind of cultural ideas are out regarding the state and

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Speaker 4: the projection out to the rest of the world. And

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Speaker 4: I thought that was very interesting. And to cut a

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Speaker 4: long story short, the thing I really took from it.

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Speaker 4: I'm not the smartest guy in the world, so maybe

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Speaker 4: it wasn't the right thing to take from it. But

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Speaker 4: the thing I took from it was when the Americans,

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Speaker 4: let's say example, right, because like Russian America always more

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Speaker 4: like me is like the comic book enemy, like beef. Right.

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Speaker 4: So so if the Americans say like, oh, yeah, like

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Speaker 4: we had to invade that country to defend America, right,

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Speaker 4: the people go, yeah, we did. But when Russia say

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Speaker 4: we had to go and you know, invade that country

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Speaker 4: to defend Russia, the Russians are like, yeah we did.

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Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, Like, it's like the Russian

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Speaker 4: The American idea of it is like people starstruck and

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Speaker 4: really believing the nonsense, whereas the Russian side of it

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Speaker 4: is more okay, we not believe it, but we're cynical.

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Speaker 4: We just got to believe it whatever, you know what

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Speaker 4: I mean. And I found that really interesting, And my

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Speaker 4: point being, if you then take that kind of idea

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Speaker 4: and match it to these assassinations, yeah, they might say, well, yeah,

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Speaker 4: yeah we did it. Yeah we're letting you know you

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Speaker 4: did it. What are you gonna do? You know, we'll

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Speaker 4: just deny it. And everyone goes, yeah, wow, we know.

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Speaker 4: That's why falling out a window as a joke. Over there,

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Speaker 4: people aren't going this is crazy. They're like, yeah, of course,

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Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, so and I think that

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Speaker 4: really speaks to it a lot. But that said that,

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Speaker 4: if you look at the your Salesbury poisoning and stuff

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Speaker 4: like that, there was actually also a huge catastrophe in

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Speaker 4: regards to how they carried it out. It was clearly

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Speaker 4: a mess. Now maybe they just don't care that it

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Speaker 4: was a mess, or maybe it's because everybody is so

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Speaker 4: kind of terrified of the guy at the top that

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Speaker 4: the left hand is not shaking the right hand. You

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Speaker 4: know what I'm saying. I mean, if you look at

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Speaker 4: I think it's quite clear with the invasion of Ukraine,

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Speaker 4: clearly nobody wanted to actually tell Poutin like this isn't

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Speaker 4: gonna work. And now we've got, you know, a award

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Speaker 4: that's ongoing from all over a year and a half that,

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Speaker 4: to be honest, okay, it's awful, but it's been also

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Speaker 4: a disaster for Russia. It's made their military, which was

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Speaker 4: once considered the second best in the world, look ridiculous,

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Speaker 4: and I think that that is part of it. I

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Speaker 4: guess to answer the question, it's an amalgamation of everything,

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Speaker 4: But I really think there's there's layers to it, but

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Speaker 4: I think there's a cultural aspect of it as well.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna pause here for word from our sponsors and

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Speaker 3: will return with j camera head and we're back.

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Speaker 2: This is slightly unrelated, Jake, but I just want to

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Speaker 2: get your opinion on it. I guess what happens in

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Speaker 2: your brain when you read that the United States is

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Speaker 2: sending cluster munitions to Ukraine?

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Speaker 4: Oh boy? Yeah. Well, one of the first things I

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Speaker 4: ever wrote when I was really young, I was like

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Speaker 4: twenty two to twenty three, I wrote this article for Vice.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't there, I couldn't afford to go anywhere, but

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Speaker 4: I wrote an article about the ongoing disaster that cluster

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Speaker 4: munitions have had on laut and I believe it was

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Speaker 4: the most heavily bombed country on Earth perk right, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And there was I was talking with this NGO that

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Speaker 4: basically demined the area.

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Speaker 3: It was.

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Speaker 4: It was really interesting. There were these like female teams

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Speaker 4: of the miners for whatever reasons, they hadn't been in

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Speaker 4: work for whatever, and they just happened to be a

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Speaker 4: really good workforce for it. It wasn't like woke cluster

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Speaker 4: munition removal or anything, you know. It was like real

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Speaker 4: legitimate thing, and they were losing hands. Kids were losing

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Speaker 4: hands all the time, like you know, and they look

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Speaker 4: like tennis balls. Basically some of these things that picked

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Speaker 4: them up boom, hand is gotten. And I was just

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Speaker 4: thinking about that when I was reading that, and I

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Speaker 4: what really made me annoyed was that to say, like, hey,

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Speaker 4: this is actually ridiculous. Put you on like people like

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Speaker 4: you're pro Russian, Like no, are you crazy?

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Speaker 5: No, I'm not.

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Speaker 4: I just think that's really and wise, you know, And

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Speaker 4: it really was quite stark to see where things have

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Speaker 4: gotten that people were going, it's fine, just give them

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Speaker 4: cluster munitions, and it's firstly, they're not that effective, and secondly,

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Speaker 4: no one was asking for them. And thirdly, history tells

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Speaker 4: you it has always been a disaster. So it seems

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Speaker 4: like a bad idea to me, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: It just sounds good in political theater, right.

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Speaker 4: Course we've sent them, like do you know what those do?

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Speaker 4: And you know, I mean, if anything, it's gonna be

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Speaker 4: nightmares for the Ukrainians for decades if they start showering

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Speaker 4: these down, you know what I mean, that's it's like, okay,

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Speaker 4: it might work in the short term, but then when

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Speaker 4: the people go back to those areas and all their

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Speaker 4: kids start losing limbs years after the war, Like, what

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Speaker 4: is happening in Loud? I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 4: And some people say, O, why they're going to deploy

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Speaker 4: them Differently, they're not the same man. Look into cluster munition.

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Speaker 4: A cluster munition is a cluster munition. You know, it's

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Speaker 4: once it's there, hidden in the soil or whatever. There

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Speaker 4: is no strategic deployment.

427
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 2: And just just to I guess say it out loud,

428
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 2: A cluster munition is essentially a bomb or something you

429
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: would launch like a munition and you'd see it explode

430
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: if you were watching you know, live leak back in

431
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 2: the day. But in this case, it it shoots out

432
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: a bunch of other explosives that often some of them

433
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: explode upon impact. Some of them, like you said, Jake,

434
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 2: just kind of hang out until they get moved.

435
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

436
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 3: It's like a it's like an incredibly evil version of

437
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 3: glitter in that once you put it out somewhere, it's everywhere.

438
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yeah yeah. If you clean up, there's some

439
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 4: left behind all the time.

440
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 3: This is something that ties back into into these ideas, right,

441
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 3: these these consequences for things, you know, as as you

442
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 3: said earlier, sad oligarch is odd. Uh, it's ongoing. There's

443
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 3: a mid season break. I believe again. We we just

444
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 3: heard about the depth and difficulty of the investigation process here,

445
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 3: and I do believe the good things take time, so

446
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 3: this makes absolute sense. We we've we would love to

447
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 3: talk about some specific cases. We were just before we

448
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 3: started recording Jake, we were talking off air about what

449
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 3: I think is one of the weirdest ones. A board

450
00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 3: member of Luke Oil, another energy giant, Alexander Subboltan, who

451
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: was who officially died from a drug induced heart attack

452
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: during a psychedelic or shamanic shamanic ritual for everyone listening

453
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 3: played along at home. That's the official explanation of the

454
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 3: Russian government is that this guy went and, did you know,

455
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 3: a spiritual journey kind of thing and had a heart attack.

456
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 3: The other explanation is that he was purposely killed with

457
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 3: poison from a toad. Can you tell us a little

458
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 3: about that one?

459
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't even sound real, does it?

460
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 4: When I when I I send that to Sophie Licktum

461
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 4: and the producer, and she was like, are you like,

462
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 4: are you serious. I was like, listen, just just listen

463
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 4: to it, you know what I mean. I was like, no,

464
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 4: I actually am serious, Like it's it did sound ridiculous,

465
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 4: and to be honest, as wild as it sounds. When

466
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 4: I started out with that one and me and said

467
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 4: you were investigating and talking about it, I thought, this

468
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 4: is actually the coincidence one. It is wild, but it's

469
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 4: too to be real. And then by the end of it,

470
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 4: I actually really kind of didn't want ay on that. Well,

471
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 4: it's up in the air, but it would have been

472
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 4: a very good moment to get rid of him, you

473
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 4: know what I mean. And this guy was a very

474
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 4: heavy drinker, clear alcoholic by all accounts. This isn't just

475
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 4: like propaganda like a lot of you know, people close

476
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 4: to him were saying this, and it's almost as if

477
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 4: they were like, ah, I mean, it'd be very easy

478
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 4: if someone just found out, like, hey, that guy there,

479
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 4: he's he's quite easy to get, you know. He was

480
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 4: on the board of Luke Coil when Luke Coile. Sorry

481
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 4: I should mention as well, the reason the Kremlin perhaps

482
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 4: might be mad at Luke Coil is because they're the

483
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 4: second largest oil company. They're not stay owned, but they

484
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 4: make billions for the Kremlin in taxes and if you're

485
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 4: making that kind of money, you're that kind of powerful

486
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 4: in Russia. You know, the Kremlin has their hand in

487
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 4: your back pocket. There's not much you can do. And basically,

488
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 4: as soon as the war happened, as soon as Russia

489
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 4: invaded Ukraine, lukeal kind of put this statement out saying

490
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 4: we don't agree with this, we want p and it

491
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 4: was yeah, to the West, it might seem vague, but

492
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 4: in Russia at the time, at that moment, less than

493
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 4: a week after the invasion, it was actually like pretty heavy.

494
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 4: It was like them saying, yeah, we're against Putin on this.

495
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: It wasn't that explicit, but very easy to read between

496
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 4: the lines. Now, does Luke Coyle care about Ukraine? Definitely not.

497
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 4: I doubt they care about their bottom line. They care

498
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 4: about money, and Luke Oil has a lot of dealings

499
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 4: with the West. Like I said at the start, lou

500
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 4: Coyle is making huge profits now off the back of

501
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 4: being one of the few oil refineries still able to

502
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 4: operate Russian oil in Europe. And okay, that makes sense.

503
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 4: Now they've made record profits, But at the time the

504
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 4: writing was on the wall. Everything's gone to disaster. People

505
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 4: are getting sanctioned. One of the heads of Luke Coil

506
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 4: had to step down because he was getting sanctioned later

507
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 4: on by Britain and various other places. So they probably thought, right,

508
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 4: we're going to lose a ton of money right now.

509
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 4: And these are very rich people with very high overheads

510
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 4: and a lot of ego. You know, they built this

511
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 4: company up, and you know, it's absolutely gigantic. They account

512
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 4: for something like more than two percent of all the

513
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 4: world's oil. Now that might not sound like I much,

514
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 4: but when you realize, like you know, the amount like

515
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 4: millions of barrels of oil a day in various countries

516
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 4: going through that's a hell of a lot of oil.

517
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 4: So they're a huge company. And he was on the

518
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 4: board and he dies, and then another guy, the president,

519
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 4: he dies falls out of the window at hospital. It

520
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense. It's it's it's just very big coincidences.

521
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 4: Now with so watching I feel like, hmm, maybe someone said, okay,

522
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 4: well this guy, there's one we can get rid of.

523
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 4: He was on the board. We don't know the inside

524
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 4: of him for maybe he was instrumental in putting this

525
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 4: statement out. They said, right, he's got to go. All right, well,

526
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 4: what's he doing? I don't know. Man. He goes to

527
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 4: see shamans, which we explained in the episode is not

528
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 4: that unusual for the kind of rich and wealthy in Russia,

529
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 4: so they might I said, all right, well he's going

530
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 4: to a shaman. Yeah, but he's going to like this

531
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 4: weird western shaman that's like an amalgamation of like other shamanism.

532
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 4: And they're actually, you know, they're they're already involved with

533
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: various kind of pretty high ranking people in Russia, like

534
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 4: pop stars and stuff like this. Okay, well we'll just

535
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 4: switch the poison and we'll just lean on them and

536
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 4: tell them to give them this. It would be actually

537
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 4: fairly easy now you look at it. Okay, it sounds outrageous,

538
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 4: but actually it will probably be one of the easier

539
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 4: ones to do. Also, the guys alcoholic he went there

540
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 4: to try and get off booze. People aren't going to

541
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 4: question it that much, you know. And he's taken. He's

542
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 4: taken frog venom. He went for it. He wanted it,

543
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: you know, it wasn't like he was dragged there. He

544
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 4: went for it anyway. And actually, when we looked into

545
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 4: these two so called shamans, they got a lot of weird,

546
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 4: dodgy dealings. Anyway, there was already a woman that launched

547
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 4: her a kind of investigation or tried to launch an

548
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 4: investigation into them, because she said that they threatened to

549
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: kill her and they attacked her. And in this basement

550
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 4: there's all this weird stuff that they have, and that

551
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 4: was also corroborated by somebody else, and the police and

552
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 4: Russia just didn't do anything about it. It just kind of

553
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 4: went away. So that in itself is kind of curious. Right.

554
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 4: I don't know if we actually mentioned that, because I

555
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 4: think it was a little bit too tenuous for me

556
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 4: at the time. But yeah, that happened, and yeah, weird,

557
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 4: very weird, you know, a very weird situation.

558
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: Well, let's continue talking about motive because I'm really interested

559
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: here to figure out, like, it's not about money, right,

560
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: because any of these individuals who die, they're going to

561
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: give that money to you know, family members, or it's

562
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: going to go down the chain somewhere.

563
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 4: Well, there is some circumstances in Russia which we will

564
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 4: get into, I think later in this series, because things

565
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 4: have changed quite a lot and it's still kind of Murky.

566
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 4: It's a little bit unclear where it's at, but there

567
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 4: is some circumstances in Russia where if your whole family

568
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: dies or is killed, your money goes to the state. Yeah,

569
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 4: so bearing in mind that in the last twelve months

570
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 4: there have been three family annihilations. However, two of them

571
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: there are two remaining kids that just happened not to

572
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 4: be there at the time, so maybe they got the money.

573
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's a weird one. It's something we're looking

574
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: into a little bit further. But it's it's a trick.

575
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 4: And I don't know I even so. I mean, two billion, like,

576
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 4: it's not nothing to the to the Kremlin, they don't

577
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 4: need two billion, you know what I mean. So I

578
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 4: looked at that as well, and at the start me

579
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 4: and Surgery, we're talking about this, and I was like, oh,

580
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: it's that. And then I was like, hang on, the

581
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 4: Kremlin doesn't need to billion. What do they care about

582
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 4: two billion? You know? Okay, it's a lot of money,

583
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 4: Sure they would prefer it, but it's I don't think

584
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 4: they were like, yeah, we're so strapped for cash, let's

585
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 4: kill everybody and accumulate the wealth of them. There's other

586
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 4: ways to do it, I think.

587
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 3: And there's a there's something else here too that I

588
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 3: think the family annihilation parts stood out, and that that

589
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 3: speaks to the inherent true crime aspect of what you

590
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 3: have to do in the journalism here, because these are crimes,

591
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 3: even if they are portrayed as accidents. It might surprise

592
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: a lot of people to know that the idea of

593
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: falling downstairs or windows death from a fall from a

594
00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 3: height is a known, im proven method of assassination in

595
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: intelligence circles. With this being a known method of assassination,

596
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: and with you know, intelligence circles being kind of rarefied air,

597
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: did you have any conversations with non Russian intelligence or

598
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: anything like that to get their take on this?

599
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 4: Well, the problem with that is I spoke to people

600
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 4: not like intelligence agencies, but people don't know about that

601
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 4: kind of thing. And I just feel like it's very

602
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 4: much in their interest to go, yeah, yeah, Russia's killing

603
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: everybody like because that right. And it's someone that works

604
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 4: in an intelligence agency. It doesn't want to give you

605
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: a straight answer. They want to influence what you do

606
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 4: my work. I really try to avoid all that kind

607
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: of thing. Even analysts sometimes a lot of analysts are

608
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 4: in bed with various intelligence agencies, and that's not like

609
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 4: weird looney Twitter conspiracy. It's very true. A lot of universities,

610
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 4: a lot of think tanks that are independently funded, you'll

611
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 4: find out, oh, along the pipeline and they're getting money

612
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: from the US government or whatever. So to be honest,

613
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 4: I really wanted to kind of avoid that. I didn't

614
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 4: even like, I kind of didn't want to bring it

615
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 4: in at all because I just feel like it's very

616
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 4: easy for people to see this as my team's the

617
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: best and just be like, look what those evil Russians

618
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: are doing, you know, like very stereotypical, and I really

619
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 4: wanted to avoid that side of it because I just

620
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 4: wanted to be like, look, this is happening, this is this.

621
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 4: It doesn't need to be a part of this football

622
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 4: match of supporting this side and that side that is

623
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: so popular on the internet. If I'd have done that,

624
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 4: it'd probably been maybe a little bit more popular because

625
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 4: people love that kind of thing. But luckily it's done

626
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 4: really well anyway. It was like at the top of

627
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 4: the charts like the first two weeks. I was happy

628
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: about that, but I didn't want it to yeah. I

629
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 4: didn't want it to turn into like that kind of thing.

630
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 4: And any any intelligence people you'll speak to, they have

631
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 4: a vested interest in doing that, even if they're retired.

632
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: You know, once you're in that game, you're never retired.

633
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 4: I don't really think and I just felt like, yeah,

634
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 4: they're going to say this, that and the other. Oh yeah,

635
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: it's probably Russia doing this. I didn't really feel like

636
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 4: there's anything in there that they could add that we

637
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 4: weren't getting from our own stuff. And the best way

638
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 4: I was to look at it historically, you know, like

639
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: on one of the episodes we had scientist Yovanna Matsiz,

640
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 4: she was saying about how the Soviet Union perfected, They

641
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 4: even gave it like a name, perfected how to kill

642
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: people by accident with poisons and stuff like that. And

643
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 4: I mean that is self speaks a lot louder than

644
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 4: I think an analyst with ties to the kind of

645
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: DC circle job being like, oh, yeah, they're.

646
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: All monsters, you know, right, And then that's that's another

647
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: thing that I do want to shout out. The experts

648
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: that you speak with are are not the raw ra

649
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: go my team kind of intelligence hooligans, as it were, Yeah.

650
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 3: The one thing that stood out to me is when

651
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: you and SERGEI are talking about a very specific type

652
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: of knife that is found in a in a murder scene,

653
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 3: and then I was wondering, in full transparent to I

654
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 3: was wondering, well, how are they going to go with this?

655
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 3: Like how much were we going to go with the knife?

656
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,479
Speaker 3: And by god, you guys hunted down experts on knife history. Yeah,

657
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 3: specific these specific blades. Could you tell us a little

658
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 3: bit about that, because it's that that also is I

659
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 3: think investigation plus true crime there.

660
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, for me, believe it or what, that side

661
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 4: of it has been easy because of popular front So

662
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 4: my platform we focus on very niche details of modern

663
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 4: warfare and underreported conflicts, and we're like the anoraks of

664
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 4: the war reporting, you know, we are Strapline has always

665
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 4: been NOI for it was no leitism, and our idea

666
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 4: was we wanted to break down all these annoying barriers

667
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 4: that like journalists who think they're so important like to

668
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 4: put up around this industry. And we wanted to bring

669
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 4: in all these nerds and be like, hey, come with us,

670
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 4: like you know, there's someone for everything. And I was

671
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 4: asking around, like our network. I mean, the team is

672
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 4: I know, there's like what ten of us, but the

673
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 4: network is like hundreds thousands, you know what I mean.

674
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 4: So I was asking about like an other kind of networks,

675
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 4: like is there anyone like you know kind of it's

676
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 4: a bit weird, but is anyone an expert on knives?

677
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 4: Like ten? People were like yep, me. So I was like, okay,

678
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 4: and we had like in the end, it was really

679
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 4: useful because Okay, we spoke to like one guy and

680
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 4: we went with what he had, but we were able

681
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 4: to cross reference it with like three other really really

682
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 4: good kind of experts or knives, and through all three

683
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 4: of them, I was going to put them together. I

684
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 4: was like, now, let's not talk to each one, let's

685
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 4: compartmentalize each one and then cross reference it that way

686
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 4: so they're not influence each other or whatever. And through that,

687
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 4: I feel like it was like a blind study, I guess,

688
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 4: if you like, like in a very crude way. And

689
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 4: through that we really narrowed it down. And that's how

690
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 4: in the end it became obvious like ah, it's this,

691
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 4: it's this company, is from here, it's from here. And

692
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 4: I liked, I really I put that all in the

693
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,439
Speaker 4: episode this episode one that because I wanted to show

694
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 4: the kind of real time workings of it, because that

695
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: is such an interesting part of it, and it really

696
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 4: I don't want to keep the investigation. I want to

697
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 4: I want to go, here's how we did it, and

698
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 4: then anyone else if they want to learn from that

699
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 4: they can, rather than like, oh, our secret sources. And

700
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 4: you know, there's obviously people we can't talk about because

701
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 4: of the town situation in Russia. There's people that we

702
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 4: you know. I actually spoke to a guy yesterday who

703
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: is kind of a Russian career criminal to be honest,

704
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 4: and he was useful to talk to, and he was like,

705
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 4: I can never go on the record about this, but

706
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 4: here's what I think about.

707
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: This, like afore like a thief in law.

708
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 4: Not quite no, no, I know what you mean, but

709
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 4: not quite a little bit more higher I think. I mean,

710
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 4: he's a businessman, but you know, he's quite open about

711
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 4: he's a naughty boy and anyway, Yeah, but that was

712
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 4: really useful, you know, and I was like, well, how

713
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 4: can we explain that? And some things you can't. You

714
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 4: can't sure we can say who we spoke to, but

715
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 4: we can't get him to explain something and I can't

716
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 4: say it because then it will expose who he is.

717
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 4: So there's a lot really difficult things. But where we

718
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 4: can we try and say like, hey, this is how

719
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 4: we worked it out.

720
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: And with that, we're going to take a quick break.

721
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 2: Here a word from our sponsor, but we'll be right

722
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: back for more sad oligarchy and we've returned.

723
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 6: If I could shift gears slightly to the whole scientific

724
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 6: community aspect of it, it reminds me of like you know, Chernobyl,

725
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 6: for example, where there are scientists within the Russian government

726
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 6: who want to tell people about this you know, nuclear meltdown,

727
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 6: but the government is basically like, no, this didn't happen,

728
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 6: and it didn't happen because we say it didn't happen,

729
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 6: and that is the line that we need everyone to follow,

730
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 6: and if you don't, then you know, woeful things will

731
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 6: happen to you. And also, there was a really great

732
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 6: documentary on Vice and I've read about it else where

733
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 6: about this city in Russia called asbest Or they actually

734
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 6: mine asbestos and it's you know, people get sick and

735
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 6: have cancer, but no.

736
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 5: They don't, that's not true. Don't worry about it.

737
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 6: Everything's fine, and then the doctor interview scientists who say

738
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 6: that they're scientists say no, it's fine, it's totally safe.

739
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 6: Everything's okay, and anyone that says otherwise, you know, obviously

740
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 6: it would be terrified to speak on the record, would

741
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 6: be in fear of their life. Can you just speak

742
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 6: a little bit about that, like kind of tradition of

743
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 6: information control, and that leads to things like.

744
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 4: This, Yeah, I mean, it's not Soviet Russia. It's not

745
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 4: as bad as that. And there are adversarial papers even

746
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 4: now against poutin that are maybe let's not say they're

747
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 4: allowed to freely operate, but they do operay, and you know,

748
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 4: Medusa is an excellent one, although they did get closed

749
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 4: down in Russia and then now now being accused of

750
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 4: being like foreign agents or maybe that's a bad example.

751
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 4: But it's very restrictive. But before the war it was

752
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 4: a little less so, and now with the Ukraine War

753
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 4: it's just a different fever. Pitching or you can get

754
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 4: like fifteen years in prison for just being against the

755
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 4: war or like organizing a peaceful protest of like two people.

756
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 4: Ironically enough, Britain actually has a very similar law now

757
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 4: called the police crime sentencing law, which is crazy and

758
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 4: it's like akin to like Russian or Turkish style authoritarianism.

759
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 4: And everybody's like, this is fine, but anyway Western values

760
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 4: for you. But yeah, so they since the war, it

761
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 4: got a lot worse. Like any of those weird laws

762
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 4: that you'd maybe been able to skirt around or as

763
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 4: long as you don't say that this thing, they'll let

764
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 4: you go. They're kind of really more hardly, like more

765
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 4: and more firmly enforced now, if you know what I'm saying.

766
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 4: They were always there, but the journalists they knew, Okay,

767
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 4: we can say this, but we'll draw the line here.

768
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 4: We have to just maybe let's not say he's corrupt.

769
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 4: Maybe let's say someone close to him was involved in

770
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 4: the corrupt. You know, there were ways around it, unfortunately

771
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 4: self censorship, but we have that. That's a part of

772
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 4: the journalism industry now, especially even in the West. You know,

773
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 4: like my platform, we have to censor everything we do. Well,

774
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 4: we don't censer what we do. That's why we're now

775
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,479
Speaker 4: censored by social media companies. So I don't think it's

776
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 4: like just Russia that has this, but it's Russia that

777
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 4: it has it. In the most kind of easily understandable form,

778
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 4: if that makes sense. Where like you said, people literally

779
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 4: have to lie, bare face, lie on camera depending on

780
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 4: which role they're in. Now, you everyday man on the

781
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 4: street can go yeah, yeah, that the scientists are lying. Yeah,

782
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 4: people are dying. They're probably going to be fine, but

783
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 4: the scientists involved, can you know what I'm saying. And

784
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 4: if he well he can, but he might find out

785
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 4: in six months he's fired or he dies or something.

786
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 4: So it's a very weird situation right now. And it's

787
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 4: not just like from the top. There's all different factions

788
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 4: fighting about stuff. It's not always necessary information. It's not

789
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 4: just that the info's out there, it's how will that

790
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 4: affect my bottom line for this company? Oh they've told

791
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 4: them this, Okay, well then we have to kill him

792
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 4: because they're not going to get the you know, stuff

793
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 4: like that, or we have to silence him. So it's

794
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 4: I think some people see it as this like column

795
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 4: of evil at the top that stamps down on everyone.

796
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 4: It's not quite that. It's just okay, don't get me wrong,

797
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 4: Like you know, censorship is awful anywhere it is. But

798
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 4: but my point is it's it's endemic in all different parts,

799
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 4: and it's like, okay, well we need to protect our

800
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 4: business interests, so we need to stop him saying that.

801
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 4: Oh well, if he says that he's gonna make this

802
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 4: guy look bad and and I'm not gonna be able

803
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 4: to do that deal or you know, and it's it,

804
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 4: then it's like a domino effect, and it's it's from

805
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 4: the top, but it's.

806
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: Everywhere different stakeholders, right exactly.

807
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 4: It's almost worse like that, right, because you don't know

808
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 4: where it's coming from. Yes, the state has an iron grip,

809
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 4: but it's a lot of other people, you know.

810
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 6: To your point about a lot of the stuff not

811
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 6: being uniquely Russian, I mean, let's not live under any

812
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 6: illusions that the US government doesn't assassinate inconvenient people. Oh yeah,

813
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 6: I mean, come on, it's just a little less brazen,

814
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 6: they hired it a little better or whatever.

815
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 4: But the idea is America doesn't do that anymore. That's

816
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 4: the idea. It's like in twenty years that were in

817
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 4: a report coming out like, oh look what they did,

818
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 4: when when they said they didn't do it anymore?

819
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 3: What's the right guy? What's the right guy? Has had

820
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 3: his fancy state funeral. Right, the expos rolls out, There's something,

821
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 3: there's something else here that I think a lot of

822
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 3: our listeners are have already connected just from our conversations.

823
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 3: Let's talk about it a little more directly. So what

824
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 3: we're seeing is internal chaos. The even you know, post

825
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 3: USSR collapse, there was a new regime, a new era.

826
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: I did drop the word kleptocracy, which some people might

827
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 3: object to, but I'm right. The there was a sort

828
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 3: of unification of things. But this change, there was a

829
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 3: fever pitch and chaos became widespread domestically. I think this

830
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: this new regime got up ended when the war in

831
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 3: Ukraine goes hot. We see an uptick in the deaths

832
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,959
Speaker 3: of these oligarchs, these associated people, even you know, uto,

833
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 3: academic science, et cetera. And we have to ask is

834
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 3: there a correlation there? Did the uptake like you mentioned

835
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 3: Luke Oil's statement, right, did the uptake in conflict the

836
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 3: beginning of the rush of the Ukraine conflict? Did that

837
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 3: trigger the deaths of these oligarchs or like, how related

838
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: are these deaths.

839
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 4: That's a great question. I don't really have a clear answer.

840
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 4: I think it's been used as an opportunity to do

841
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 4: it if it is done like that. And I think

842
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 4: also it's brought up some issues that were already there

843
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 4: that have kind of had the nerves bed out, and

844
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 4: so people are like, ah, yeah, okay, right, that's we're

845
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 4: at the point now we have to deal with this

846
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 4: right now. I think that's happened. And there is some

847
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 4: people that said, oh, well, why are you doing This

848
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 4: has been going on for ages. It's just you know,

849
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 4: it just seems worse now people are looking at Russia

850
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 4: because of the war. That's not true. There's never been

851
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 4: a correlation like this. It's that many. No, not like this.

852
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 4: It's like when people say, oh, well the world has

853
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 4: been warming up and getting colder ever since time began. Yeah,

854
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 4: that's true, but then look at how fast that has

855
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 4: happened in the last ten years. Okay, it's very clear

856
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 4: there's a difference. So without the context there, it's kind

857
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 4: of it seems like, oh, this has always been happening,

858
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 4: but with the context of like, no, not this quickly,

859
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,479
Speaker 4: not this many, not this closely connected in the last

860
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 4: nine months, in the last year, and so many, three

861
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 4: family annihilations in the space of nine months, all people connected.

862
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 4: When I spoke to the expert on family and annihilations,

863
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 4: I didn't tell her that to the end, and she

864
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 4: was like what now, She's like, I've never heard of

865
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 4: that happening, and it's an extremely rare situation. So I

866
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 4: think I think it's a bit of both. I think

867
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 4: maybe more attention is on it, maybe the West are

868
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 4: paying attention a little bit more because of the war.

869
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 4: But at the same time, there's more happening I think

870
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 4: because of the war.

871
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 6: Family annihilation, I mean, that just seems like just the

872
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 6: most aggressive retribution to make an example out of someone,

873
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 6: or is there something for there? You said you were

874
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 6: looking into the idea of the state getting the money,

875
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 6: but in the examples that you saw there were just

876
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 6: a couple of kids that survived. What do you think, Like,

877
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 6: is family annihilation just like this is us really making

878
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 6: an example out of you?

879
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 5: Is it about what people in the family know?

880
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 4: Like, what do you think I think if it's someone

881
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 4: came in and killed the whole family and then staged

882
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 4: it to look like murder suicide. If it's that, I

883
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 4: believe it's like you said the latter, to make an example.

884
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 4: Look what we'll do to you it's very mafia like, right,

885
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 4: it's you think about it. Oh, I can't believe that.

886
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 4: But if you put it into the context of like, well, look,

887
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 4: this is like a mafia, which is what oligaksa essentially are.

888
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 4: You know, they were connected to and all of them

889
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 4: kind of came about through like a very murky world

890
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 4: weist period within the collapse of the USSR. A lot

891
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 4: of them were criminals, you know, a lot of them

892
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 4: got their tokens, got their money through criminality. Yeah, definitely

893
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 4: like very mafias thing to do, right, kill everybody. Now

894
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 4: you'll learn, like, you know, like who's going to come

895
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 4: against this? Okay, some sus I'll kill you, all right,

896
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 4: well I'll take the risk. Some as that I'll kill

897
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 4: your family. Yeah, that's the next level, right, Like it's

898
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 4: it's the most precious thing, and I think that. But

899
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 4: then the other side of it could be, well, maybe

900
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 4: this is a coincidence. You know, the kind of people

901
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 4: that do this stuff are generally very wealthy, power hungry men,

902
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 4: and maybe it just happened to be the three of them,

903
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 4: all within the same kind of circuit, happened to do

904
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 4: this all within the space of nine months and that's right.

905
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 4: It's possible, but I think it's more likely. Well I

906
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 4: don't want to say it's more likely, but I think

907
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 4: it's also possible that it was a sign. And I

908
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 4: don't necessarily think, yeah, the Russian government went yeah. So

909
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 4: like it's not like puting sat there stroking a cat,

910
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 4: going kill the whole family, you know, Like it's not

911
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 4: like that. It's I think it's just various oligarchy circles.

912
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 4: Matthiosque groups have said, right, make an example out of

913
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: that guy.

914
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 6: To be an open secret. Like, it's not like they

915
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 6: need to leave a calling card. People would just you know,

916
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 6: if you know, you know.

917
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 4: And if you talk to like maybe some of these

918
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 4: people involved in oligarchy circles, they consider it like, oh yeah,

919
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 4: that that's that's definitely that that's what that was. They're

920
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 4: letting us know. They're letting him know. Yeah, Okay, you

921
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 4: can't really take that word as gospel, but that's what

922
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 4: they see as often.

923
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: All right, Just to stay on organized current for a second,

924
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: And this is a potentially really dumb question, Jake, so

925
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: here it comes. Uh, one of my favorite movies that's

926
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,439
Speaker 2: come out in a couple of years is this bob

927
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 2: odin Kirk action movie called Nobody and.

928
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, the worst film I've seen in a long time.

929
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh, come on, I loved it.

930
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 5: It was so much fun.

931
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: Zero zero stars. Are you serious staying on his career?

932
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 4: I believe. Yeah, No, I hate so much.

933
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 2: Oh no, I loved it. I loved seeing him do that.

934
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 2: I think that's really where the joy came from. But

935
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: in that movie, one of the major plot points is

936
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: this thing called an ob shack. I don't know how

937
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: to say it correct. No, it's like an ob shock.

938
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 3: Which is like umbrella organization for moving money in a

939
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 3: criminal way.

940
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 2: Well, in that movie, it's weird. It takes it as

941
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: in the actual giant amount of money that is, you know,

942
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: made on in black markets in some way or illegally,

943
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: and it's kept somewhere. Have you seen anything like that

944
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: in your research, like something that exists in the criminal

945
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 2: underworld of Russia.

946
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 4: I mean it doesn't not really in that sense, I think.

947
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 4: I mean, that is a real thing. Yeah, but it's

948
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 4: not really like that. I mean, it's not that was

949
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 4: a It's like every Russian in that film is like

950
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 4: just finishes eating a baby before they speak. You know.

951
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 4: It's one of those like ridiculous caricatures. It's not like that.

952
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 4: I mean everyone has these pools of dirty money. He

953
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 4: hid the money, I mean, Pooting himself is worth like

954
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 4: one hundred billion or something, how you.

955
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,399
Speaker 7: Know how off the books though, Yeah, exactly off the books, right,

956
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 7: you know he doesn't make that Yeah, like that's not

957
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 7: his it's yeah, it's you know, they've all got these

958
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 7: various schemes, but everyone does.

959
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 4: I mean everyone. I mean, look at the Panama papers.

960
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 4: You know that was just Russia by any means. You know,

961
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 4: if you're a multi multi millionaire involved in these kind

962
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 4: of businesses, you've got some dirty money somewhere, you're doing

963
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 4: something illegal. It's how it works, you know, it's it

964
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 4: just is how it is, and you get away with it,

965
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 4: you know, you completely get away with there is I

966
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 4: think one person got prosecuted directly off the back of

967
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 4: the Panama papers, maybe more than that, but it's compared

968
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 4: to how many people in their bare face caught red handed.

969
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 4: Basically nothing happened and they know, of.

970
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: Course, well, consequences are for the peasants, right as right.

971
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, And depending on which political side of the room

972
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 4: you're on, you know, you either get I don't know,

973
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 4: arrested or you get a podcasts. It's very much who

974
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 4: you're It's very much who you're kind of like involved

975
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 4: with in all countries. I'm not talking about anyone specific.

976
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 4: It's just it's just like anywhere you are.

977
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 3: You know, you're on fire with the quotables today.

978
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 4: Man, I'm just saying, you know, depending on where you are,

979
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 4: depend on who you upset or who you make happy,

980
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 4: you're going to come out of it well or maybe

981
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 4: fall out a window.

982
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,959
Speaker 3: That's true. And there's something else that you talk about, uh,

983
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 3: you and surgery look at something that I think a

984
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: lot of people in the West have forgotten about when

985
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 3: these deaths occur. One other, one other aspect of this

986
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 3: that lends credence to the idea that these are not

987
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 3: a series of ridiculous, you know, Rube Goldberg esque final

988
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 3: destination accidents, but purposeful homicides. One thing that makes it

989
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 3: that really lends authority to that is you talk about

990
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 3: this almost stalinistic tendency of the Russian government to scrub

991
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 3: these guys from history like to what what what did

992
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: you say, like the record of their roles in places

993
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: or careers are is that really happening and to what extent.

994
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that that is happening. More like we saw so

995
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 4: one guard that was you know, made a load of

996
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 4: money for gas problem his whole career. There By the

997
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 4: like he he died in a suicide, which in itself

998
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 4: was weird. Guys from Gazprom security turned up in black

999
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 4: jeeps and literally pushed the police out of the crime scene.

1000
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 4: So the gaz Prom security somehow had more authority than

1001
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 4: the cops, and his records were removed like basically like

1002
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 4: within twenty four hours of him being dead from Gazprom records.

1003
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 4: And at the time, this was at the start of

1004
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 4: these kind of killings, and at the time the gaz

1005
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 4: promb actually gave a statement and I said, oh wow,

1006
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 4: we thought it might make his family upset. No, I

1007
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 4: think he would much more likely make the family upset

1008
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 4: that he was basically wiped from the record of the

1009
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 4: place he worked out for decades and was very proud

1010
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 4: to work. And then the scientist that was before he died. Actually,

1011
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 4: but like a lot of his records started getting removed

1012
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 4: because he I don't know, he was removed by his

1013
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 4: post from a guy that really had no place being there.

1014
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 4: He was not qualified, he cheated on his exams, and

1015
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 4: for some reason the government put him in charge. And

1016
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 4: then this other fellow his stuff was removed, and then

1017
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 4: you know, a year later he falls down the stairs

1018
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 4: and dies. And then another thing that is making this

1019
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 4: series hard is we've noticed as these things progress, a

1020
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 4: lot a lot less is said about it in the

1021
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 4: media in Russia. At the start, there was actually even

1022
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 4: the Russian media will be like, oh, this is kind

1023
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 4: of weird. You know, this is weird. And now it's

1024
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 4: just like, as it goes on, we have we have

1025
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 4: like a timeline that we work from. I might release

1026
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 4: that actually might be useful for other people looking intowists,

1027
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 4: but we have a lot time. Yeah, and as you see,

1028
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 4: as it gets on, the more that happened, the less

1029
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 4: and less and less details go out there, you know.

1030
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 4: And I think maybe someone has said, hey, yeah, okay,

1031
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 4: we get it. We're doing this if they're doing it,

1032
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 4: but you know, we need to not make this so obvious.

1033
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 4: Perhaps I don't know, or just because of the brain

1034
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 4: draining from Russia during the war, reporting has got worse.

1035
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 4: That is also possible, you know, but I don't think

1036
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 4: that's what it is. I think it's, like I said,

1037
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 4: the more that happened, the less details seemed to be

1038
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:50,919
Speaker 4: out there.

1039
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: That was going to be one of my last questions

1040
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: for you, Jake. The Yeah, I think it's Sergei Producena

1041
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 2: who was in Spain with his family and they all died.

1042
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: Just I haven't seen anything on that since the initial reporting,

1043
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: and I just wonder like if you've got any updates

1044
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 2: since even making your episode.

1045
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 4: I mean, the police have just kind of said like, look,

1046
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 4: we think it was was as it is, and that's it. Really,

1047
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 4: it's it's very true. I mean, everything's kind of open,

1048
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 4: like even this new one we're doing Dan Rappaport. The

1049
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 4: police in Washington, DC closed the case, but even they said, look,

1050
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 4: if any tips are out there, we're very happy to

1051
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 4: open it up again. You know, the cause of death

1052
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 4: was undetermined, so we don't know, you know, but I

1053
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 4: I don't know it's And people seem to think, well, oh,

1054
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 4: well that that means then it's it's actually you just

1055
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 4: jump to conclusions. Well no, if you actually look at

1056
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 4: how many murders really go unsolved, there's loads, loads in

1057
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 4: America alone. I think Baltimore's like solving murder rights like

1058
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 4: thirty percent something crazy like that. So, yeah, it happens

1059
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 4: all the time. So it's not unusual that the police

1060
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 4: just go out, we don't know how to close it,

1061
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 4: and that that's where murders someone. As it looks like

1062
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 4: a suicide, you're even more likely to just go. You're

1063
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 4: not gonna go. Yeah, guys, let's get our small squad

1064
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 4: of offices embroiled in an international plot perhaps, and you know,

1065
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 4: direct all our resources, not you fill out window, he's dead.

1066
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 4: Whatever you know, it is how it is. So it's

1067
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 4: nothing like insidious that, oh they've been told to drop it. No,

1068
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 4: it's just the way it is.

1069
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 3: It's closing the books, right, that's resources versus the system. Yeah,

1070
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 3: there's another related question here too about safety, and it

1071
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 3: reminds me a bit of some of our earlier conversations

1072
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 3: when we're talking about QC or QAnon and conflict journalism

1073
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 3: with you a number of years ago. It's no secret, Jake,

1074
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 3: that you have been in some pretty hairy situations before

1075
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 3: you know, and and you are familiar with that that

1076
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 3: is a world in which you have lived. Have you

1077
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 3: or any of your team heard from direct representatives of

1078
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,919
Speaker 3: aspects of Russian gu vernance. Have you or your team

1079
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 3: ever felt that your own personal safety was at risk

1080
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 3: as a result of these investigations?

1081
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 4: Not really, I mean people did say to us or

1082
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 4: you're not worried about this, or you're a madman, like

1083
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 4: why are you doing it? Like I don't think. Firstly,

1084
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 4: the Russian government has probably no idea about this podcast series. Secondly,

1085
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 4: they probably wouldn't. Why would they care, you know, if

1086
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 4: they if they are doing if they're doing this or

1087
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 4: whoever is doing it, I've done it so sloppily that

1088
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 4: someone like me is able to like basically work it

1089
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 4: out with my friend. Yeah, they're probably not gonna care,

1090
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 4: you know. If anything, they might be like, oh, I'm

1091
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 4: glad someone's seen our handiwork, and if it's all a coincidence,

1092
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 4: they're gonna care even less, they're like, look at this fool,

1093
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:48,959
Speaker 4: like this is we're not even doing this, and he's

1094
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 4: you know, put two and two together and got ten.

1095
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 4: So I don't really think, you know, I think people

1096
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 4: like me. It's not really it's fine. I mean Litvinenko, Yeah,

1097
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 4: Livinenko wrote a book called Blowing Up Russia in which

1098
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 4: he kind of proved that puting pretty much almost directly

1099
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 4: from the top from his office, were orchestrating the apartment

1100
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 4: bombings in Russia, which then led to the invasion of

1101
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 4: Chechnya and all of that stuff and the wars that started.

1102
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 4: So that obviously is going to be a big deal.

1103
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 4: You know, that is obviously going to get you poisoned.

1104
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 4: Me being like, yeah, I think these weird coincidences. We're

1105
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 4: just putting information together, and you know, we have the

1106
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 4: various this and that. Yeah, I think I think it's

1107
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 4: probably fine. I mean, I'm sure that if we managed

1108
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 4: to get some kind of like I don't know, you know,

1109
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 4: like on camera of puting, you know, dropping some frog

1110
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 4: venom in your Matini, like maybe then I'd be in danger.

1111
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 4: But it's just not how it works. And I do think,

1112
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 4: you know, people do have a tendency to blow things

1113
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 4: out of proportion, especially when it's Russia related. If I

1114
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 4: was Russian, I'd be in a lot more danger, I think,

1115
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 4: you know, and resurgeries Russian either, And that's why we're

1116
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 4: not having actually any people in country on the record.

1117
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 4: Because someone was like criticizing me for that, I was like, yeah,

1118
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 4: do you know what will happen to them? They're going

1119
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,439
Speaker 4: to be in serious trouble. Not saying they get killed,

1120
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 4: but they're going to be in trouble. It's not we're

1121
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 4: not in the process of yeah, well that will make

1122
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 4: our podcast even better. No, we're not getting people in

1123
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 4: trouble like that, you know. So we even had someone

1124
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 4: like we were talking to and in a completely unrelated thing,

1125
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 4: but she was, well, it's for this series. But she

1126
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 4: was telling us that her cousin was like, you know,

1127
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 4: anti anti war, and she was a little bit worried

1128
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 4: about even give us nim information about some stuff that

1129
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 4: she knew about. And as we were talking he she

1130
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 4: found out he'd like been arrested, you know what I mean,

1131
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 4: nothing to do with us. It was just because he'd

1132
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 4: been found, you know, they were looking for him. So

1133
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 4: even being anti war is getting people arrested. It's just

1134
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 4: not something we're going to do to be like, oh, yeah,

1135
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 4: for the sake of the podcast, let's put people at risk.

1136
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 4: But you know, we've had, really we've had some really

1137
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 4: interesting conversations with people I have, specifically with people in

1138
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 4: Russia that I don't know. There's a there is a

1139
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 4: real there's a whole different side to the place. You know,

1140
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 4: it's not not everybody is even for this war. Not

1141
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 4: everybody is is just living with it and thinking it's okay.

1142
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people there that really hate this stuff,

1143
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 4: you know, and you know they can't just exit. It's

1144
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 4: not that simple. So yeah, but no, I don't think

1145
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 4: we're in danger. I mean I say that if you

1146
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 4: find out like, oh yeah, Jake Canrahan fell out of

1147
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 4: a window soon. I'm not that clumsy, you know.

1148
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 3: We got Yeah.

1149
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 2: We haven't asked you about Wagner, like I can't, Are

1150
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 2: you serious? Yeah, of course, Fregosian and all that stuff,

1151
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 2: Like my god, dude.

1152
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 3: But so we uh, this is where we know that

1153
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 3: we're onto something as as a group, and we're counting you,

1154
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist here. Uh the show said, oligarc is ongoing, Jake. Uh, Matt, No,

1155
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 3: I think we've got to We've gotta pull We've got

1156
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 3: to pull in Jake to talk about Wagner at some

1157
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 3: point as well.

1158
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 5: You know, maybe I could we give a few minutes

1159
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 5: to it. Now.

1160
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 6: When that thing was reported, it was just so confusing,

1161
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 6: Like even when we first were reading about it was.

1162
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 5: Like what what are they doing?

1163
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 6: And why is this like a flex like, like what

1164
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 6: exactly can you describe that situation as you perceived it?

1165
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 5: Jake and any updates that you think are p pertinent.

1166
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 5: It's just such a bizarro situation.

1167
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 4: He that, yeah, yeah, it's really up. Until they actually

1168
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 4: started shooting, I was like, this is an op Like,

1169
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 4: this isn't real, This is some kind of nonsense. I

1170
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 4: still think that to some degree, but I don't know.

1171
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 4: There's there's people a lot like smarter than me that

1172
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 4: will will be able to work that out. But I

1173
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 4: think it's I don't know. They're doing all weird stuff

1174
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 4: in Belarus right now. They seem to have just been

1175
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 4: allowed to like continue operating. They're talking about sending more

1176
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 4: people to Russia to Africa right now. There's a lot

1177
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 4: of Wagner in Russia, sorry Wagner going from Belarus to

1178
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 4: Africa that were previously in Russia. So I think it's

1179
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 4: I think it's I don't know, you're gonna have to

1180
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 4: I think in the next year a lot more of

1181
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 4: that will become more apparent, But right now it's I

1182
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 4: don't even want to really think, like say what I

1183
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 4: think because it's so confusing. I don't know, you know,

1184
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 4: but I don't. I definitely don't think it's I personally

1185
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 4: think this is maybe orchestrated between progosion and putin. Actually,

1186
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 4: I think there might be a whole play going on.

1187
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 4: But maybe people are a lot more clued up on

1188
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 4: it than me, Like, don't be ridiculous, And they're probably.

1189
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 6: Right, you know, Glad it wasn't just me that thought

1190
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 6: the whole thing was bizarre world Like, I'm like, what

1191
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 6: is this?

1192
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 5: I don't understand.

1193
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 2: So, speaking off together with your work on Q clearance,

1194
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 2: are you super stoked about Tuesday, November fifth four? That's

1195
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: the presidential election here in the US.

1196
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 4: It's the it's the election.

1197
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, are you super stoked about the next election

1198
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 2: in the US?

1199
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 4: No, I'm not. I don't know. I just I kind

1200
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 4: of kind of got tired of it.

1201
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 6: Got it's well, it's making a comeback here, Jacob the

1202
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 6: rounds again.

1203
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, tired.

1204
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,439
Speaker 3: Being tired of the election is a very American thing

1205
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 3: to say.

1206
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 4: Ja.

1207
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 3: I think that.

1208
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 4: After the too clear It stuff, I just like I

1209
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 4: just like zoned out.

1210
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's fatigue for sure, But.

1211
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 6: Then there was such a lull, you know, like it's

1212
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 6: like Okay, he's everything's gone away, everything's.

1213
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 5: Normal ish, you know, not normal really.

1214
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 6: But now it's like he's on TV's, on all these

1215
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 6: podcasts saying all this crazy, like he's gonna run even

1216
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 6: if he's in prison, And.

1217
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 5: Honestly, what would stop him? What would stop from law?

1218
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,439
Speaker 4: As long as he's got jokes, Like.

1219
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 5: Right, he's got all the jokes. Here's my fix.

1220
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 3: I know, we got to get out of here. Here's

1221
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 3: my fix. Yeah, for the US budget, make the trial

1222
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 3: pay per view, you.

1223
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 4: Know what I mean?

1224
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: Yea, it is so Jake Hanrahan. The news show ongoing

1225
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,479
Speaker 3: is sad Oligarch. However, this is one, there's only one

1226
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 3: facet of the many, many projects that are pal Jake

1227
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 3: does Jake, can you tell folks where to learn more

1228
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 3: about not just sad Oligarch, but the continuing work of

1229
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 3: Popular Front and where people can follow and or contact you?

1230
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, thanks very much. I mean if they just

1231
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 4: go to my site, so it's just Jakehanrahan dot com

1232
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 4: h A N I A h A and they'll just

1233
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 4: see links to everything there. Same with popular Front. The

1234
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 4: best way probably for the Popular Front if you go

1235
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 4: to Popularfront dot cc. It's just like a list of

1236
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 4: links to everything we do. We make documentaries, we've got podcast,

1237
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 4: we've got new magazine has just come out now. We're

1238
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 4: really proud of that. So yeah, we've got everything going on.

1239
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 4: We're independent media platform focused solely on war and conflict,

1240
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 4: but we come at things from a little bit more

1241
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 4: of a different angle. We kind of from the from

1242
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 4: the point of view with the people, I like to say,

1243
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 4: as opposed to governments. Put it that way, And we're

1244
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 4: not like hyper political or anything like people always want

1245
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:23,959
Speaker 4: to label us as this that. No, we just don't

1246
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 4: like people's heads being trodden on. And that's it, you know.

1247
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 2: Nice, Thank you so much, Thanks again for your time.

1248
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 3: Man.

1249
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks, guys, really appreciate it. Sorry, I just got

1250
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 4: a dash.

1251
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 3: And that was our pal. That was our pal Jake.

1252
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 3: Every time, you know, every time we talk with Jake,

1253
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 3: he's in the middle of something crazy, you know what

1254
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 3: I mean.

1255
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, he always comes to us audio only, probably because

1256
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 6: he's somewhere that doesn't even have like, you know, the

1257
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 6: bandwidth the transmit video. You hear your pop pops and

1258
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 6: crackles here and there. It really does feel like you're

1259
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 6: talking to somebody who is on the inside, and.

1260
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 5: He's on the inside, whether physic or just his brain.

1261
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 6: He's really smart dude, and really thoughtful and always a

1262
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 6: player spending time on that.

1263
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 3: I talked to him, what time. I was like, just

1264
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 3: check it in. We're just trying to like, hey, man,

1265
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 3: how's it going. He's like, I'm in these French protests. Yeah,

1266
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 3: I said, oh cool, I fell asleep. Try to put

1267
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 3: on a pair of pants.

1268
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, you know, obviously Brexit has made this

1269
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 6: a little more difficult, but that is one benefit of

1270
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 6: living in Europe is like you can bounce around between

1271
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 6: all of these widely politically different places and culturally different places,

1272
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 6: and you know, be able to just really see this

1273
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 6: incredible swath of humanity, whereas here by the US. Sure

1274
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 6: there's changes across the country, but it's a little more

1275
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 6: homogenous overall. But I'm really amazing that someone with the

1276
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 6: smarts of Jake is able to do that.

1277
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, guys, I'm sorry. I'm still reeling from the

1278
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 2: whole family annihilation aspect of some of this episode and

1279
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,080
Speaker 2: just this topic. It really like put me in a

1280
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 2: dark space.

1281
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 5: I'm railing on the way to shut down your favorite

1282
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 5: movie of the year. I know that.

1283
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 4: Career.

1284
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 3: I thought that gave it wasn't high art or anything

1285
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 3: that gave me a laugh. That's like, that's These are

1286
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 3: the kind of people that we like to hang out with, folks,

1287
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 3: the people that are top in their fields. Still, as

1288
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 3: you can tell, Jake is an incredibly humble dude. Uh.

1289
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 3: It puts himself in a lot of situations and does

1290
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 3: this to bring stories that the public ordinarily might not

1291
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 3: see without being controlled. And if you listen back to

1292
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 3: this conversation, spoiler, you're gonna hear a lot of a

1293
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 3: lot of threads that we refer to that Jake referred

1294
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 3: to that our rabbit holes all their own. So do

1295
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 3: do feel free to dig in? I I gotta say,

1296
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 3: there's so many questions we didn't get to. I'm glad

1297
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 3: we talked a little bit about Wagner, but I really

1298
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 3: want to hear what he's talking about with Niger, because

1299
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 3: you guys have you guys have been looking into that right. Oh,

1300
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 3: France said they're fine to intervene and help help out there.

1301
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 3: Oh the French can't fight. Oh they're actually really good nasty,

1302
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 3: but yeah they fight dirty. Well, they're always glad to

1303
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:28,439
Speaker 3: provide democracy to their biggest source of nuclear material. It's

1304
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:30,439
Speaker 3: what we get to I don't know. All right, we've

1305
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 3: got a little long but we hope you enjoyed this

1306
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 3: with folks. We hope you tune in for future episodes

1307
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 3: and conversations like these. We're going to be looking at

1308
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 3: a US naval cover up. We're going to be talking

1309
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 3: about Aspartame had. We got a lot of stuff going on,

1310
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 3: and we actually we also recently got a great letter

1311
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 3: from law enforcement about why celebrities tend to have better

1312
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 3: investigations into their deaths. Tune in to find all of

1313
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 3: that more. Help us, you're the most important part of

1314
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 3: the show. Give us those new leads. Take us to

1315
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 3: the edge of the rabbit hole. You can find us

1316
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 3: all sorts of places, probably not in Russia. I don't

1317
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 3: think we're going to get through customs. But you can

1318
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 3: find us online.

1319
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 6: You sure can at the handle Conspiracy Stuff on YouTube

1320
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 6: and yes that's what's called Twitter conspiracy Stuff. Also Facebook,

1321
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 6: excuse me, I think Facebook is still Facebook. And also

1322
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 6: you can find us the Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram

1323
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 6: and TikTok.

1324
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 2: Do you like using your phone to call people and

1325
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 2: leave voicemails. Well, we've got an opportunity for you. One

1326
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 2: eight three three stdwytk. You've got three minutes. Say whatever

1327
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 2: you'd like, give yourself a cool nickname, and let us

1328
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 2: know if we can use your name and message on

1329
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 2: the air. If you'd rather send an email, hey, we've

1330
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 2: got that too.

1331
01:07:45,560 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1332
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1333
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:14,479
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1334
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.