1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, if I might take the conversation to a higher plane, 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to welcome back to the Armstrong and 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Getty show after too long and absence. Greg Lukianov, author, 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: along with Jonathan Height, of The Coddling of the American 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: Mind and a book length extension examination of their terrific, 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: groundbreaking Atlantic article of a couple of months ago or 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago rather. Greg is also I believe, 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: one of the founders of fire defending individual rights in 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: higher education, joins us. Now, Hello, Greg, how are you sir? 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: That's great to be back. Thank you. 11 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 3: How long ago was that Atlantic article? 12 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: It was a twenty fifteen It was the summer of 13 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen. 14 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 3: Wow. Well, you didn't turn things around with that article 15 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 3: because things are worse now than they were. 16 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Well, hey, hey, hey, you have to slow the ship 17 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: before you turn it. 18 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 19 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: By the way, we decided to write the boo because 20 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: things got so much crazier after we wrote the article. 21 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: We were like, oh, okay, I think we have to 22 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: go a little. 23 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: Deeper in Yeah, okay, a couple of quick notes before 24 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: we dive into it in depth. Greg number one, I 25 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: am proudly sending my youngest to university that gets a 26 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: green light from fire florrific for communication, and I thank 27 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: you for furnishing that resource. Secondly, as I was googling 28 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: your book and typed simply the cod your book came 29 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: up immediately instead of that delicious fish. So the delicious 30 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: fish it is, it is getting it is getting some attention, 31 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: thank God. So let's talk about the coddling of the 32 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: American mind, specifically young minds, and the damage that's being done, 33 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: what led us to where we are now. 34 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: Well, the whole book is trying to figure out what 35 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: exactly happened around twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen. And my simple 36 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: perspective is I started working on campuses back in two 37 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: thousand and one, and for my entire career the best 38 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: constituency for freedom of speech were the students themselves. And 39 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: then sometimes around twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, we saw this 40 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: sort of uprising of students demanding that people be disinvited. 41 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: They're actually demanding new speech codes. Sometimes they were demanding 42 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 2: professor and administrators are fired for what they said, even 43 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: if it's clearly protected speech. And this was a really 44 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: the shift. The shift seemed to happen overnight. And one 45 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 2: of the reasons why I started talking to John Height 46 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: about this was because I was also noticing that it 47 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: was kind of like this medicalization of the reasons for 48 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: why they were at demanding that speakers not be invited 49 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: that talked about, you know, things like PTSD and trauma. 50 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 2: But in a way that I know enough about psychology 51 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: just from being kind of a hobbyist to be like, 52 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: that doesn't really sound quite right. That is the way 53 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: I think the psychologist would actually approach it. So the 54 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: original book was the original article was trying to say, listen, 55 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: if we're wondering why what was going on on campus, 56 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: we should be aware of the fact that we're teaching 57 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 2: a generation the intellectual habits of anxious and depressed people. 58 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: And the book really takes that further, goes much deeper 59 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: into the data. The data now actually really firmly presents 60 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: the fact that we are dealing with a very serious 61 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: mental health problem on campus. But we also add to that, 62 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: you know, don't teach a generation that habits of depressed 63 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: and anxious people, but also don't teach them in the 64 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: habits of polarized people. 65 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: Well, and that was the section in the article that 66 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, and I've read it several times, that is 67 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: stuck so firmly in my mind that we are actually 68 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: teaching mental illness for instance, you know, catastrophizing the smallest 69 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: of negative incidents, or being sure that everyone's against me, 70 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: or I'm sure you have the list of you know, 71 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: anxiety provoking tendencies at ready. Tell us more about that. 72 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, those are called cognitive distortions. And I know about 73 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: this from a very personal angle. I actually give some 74 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: very personal details in this book that I realized after 75 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: i'd written them. I had even told you my wife 76 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: and family about some of them. But I used to 77 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: go through really bad bouts of depression and I learned 78 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: about cognitive behavioral therapy, which is one of the most 79 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: effective non drug interventions you can have for anxiety and depression, 80 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 2: and what it is, and it's kind of amazing. It's 81 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: just looking at those kind of crazy voices that we 82 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: all have in our heads. That you know, like when 83 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: you go on a date and it doesn't go well 84 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: and you say to yourself, I'm going to die alone. 85 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: Anxious and depressed people do a lot more of that, unsurprisingly, 86 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: And what's so amazing about CBT is if you just 87 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: get in the habit of talking back to some of 88 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: our exaggerated voices in your head, and it worked wonders 89 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: for me, you can really help yourself battle back depression 90 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: and anxiety. The book You Know talks about how we 91 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: seem to be telling and the book opens up with 92 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 2: sort of a story about going to the world's worst 93 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: guru and he gives you all sorts of terrible advice. 94 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: And the premise has always been that it's almost like 95 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 2: we're taking the worst advice you could possibly give to 96 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: young people or any people, and we're giving it to 97 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: a generation as if it's good advice. 98 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really interesting because you're right about that that 99 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: way to approach it, because I've tried to do that 100 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 3: in my life. Sometimes when I'm really anxious and worried, 101 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: I think, is there anything actually bad happening? No, there's 102 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: nothing actually bad happening. But our college campuses are telling 103 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: kids that there is something very bad happening which is 104 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 3: weird constantly, yeah, constantly. 105 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: And that they'll be damaged forever for it. We actually 106 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 2: in one of the chapters we give the sort of 107 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: the thought experiment of going into a college psychologist's office 108 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: and them asking you you know you're saying you listen, doc, 109 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: I feel anxious and depressed, and the doctor just being like, 110 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: oh my god, that must mean you're in great danger. 111 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: We need to help you figure out a place to hide. 112 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: And so instead of like playing trying to get these 113 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: sort of anxieties to sort of calm down a little 114 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: bit and learn to be sort of like more rational 115 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: in our approaches, we're doing a generation. And this is 116 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: to be clear, this is something we're doing to a generation. 117 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: I'm not blaming the students themselves for this. The point 118 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: that we're telling that you need to be much more 119 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 2: frightened than you actually need to be, that you're in 120 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: much greater threat than you need to be, and that 121 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 2: people are basically all out to get you. 122 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting because it'd be bad advice even if 123 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 3: it were nineteen sixty eight and like things were crazy 124 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: and dangerous. It'd be a bad thing to say you 125 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 3: need to focus on these negative things and overcome them, 126 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: even if they were bad things. But there are no 127 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: bad things. It's never been a more comfortable, safe time 128 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 3: to be on a college campus. And they're convincing them 129 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 3: to be terrified. 130 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: Well, and that's one thing we really changed in the 131 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: book is we started looking at the bigger picture because 132 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: we were thinking that that campuses were sort of inculcating 133 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: these these bad ideas. But we looked back and we 134 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: looked into the research, and it looked more like these 135 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: are things that are partially coming, unfortunately from our generation 136 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 2: of parents as well. So two of my favorite chapters 137 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: in the whole book are actually about paranoid parenting and 138 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: the elimination of free play, which sound like they wouldn't 139 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: be at all related to campus free speech issues. 140 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 3: Absolute are Yeah, sorry. 141 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: We think about this way to make a generation of 142 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: students who feel like they don't really have control over 143 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: their lives and that they're more vulnerable than they actually are. 144 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: And if you believe that, then sure, having this you know, 145 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: speaker on campus could to harm you for. 146 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 3: Life, right, you know. 147 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: I do not want to turn this at all political, 148 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: because then I think people tend to close their ears 149 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: and turn off their minds. But there is undeniably a 150 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: political use to it. I mean, hl Makon has some 151 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: absolutely wonderful quotes about politics being the art of frightening 152 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: the populace with various bugaboos, most of which do not exist, 153 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: and I think in such a comfortable and prosperous time, Well, again, 154 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: it's politically very useful to frighten people on all sides 155 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: of the political all sides. You can't have almost you know, 156 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: everywhere along the political spectrum. 157 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, i'm reading you of all Harari's new book, 158 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: which he had the temerity to come out with his 159 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: book the same day that that we did. But he 160 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: talks about how this is sort of a tactic for 161 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 2: keeping people sort of under your thumb too, is just 162 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: keep everybody scared and you can get away with whatever 163 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: you want. 164 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Greg Lukianov is the author, along with the John Hight, 165 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: of The Coddling of the American Mind. 166 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: On that theme, I kind of wish that was what 167 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 3: was going on, because I think it'd be easier to combat. 168 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: But obviously we're not doing that as parents, we're not 169 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 3: trying to scare. There are children for some political and 170 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 3: there's something weird in our culture about some when we're 171 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 3: all going to be immortal or or something. 172 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: That's why we call them problems of progress. I tend 173 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: to think that there are some kind of predictable outcomes 174 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: that you would see as we have kind of like 175 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: more free time, as we have more you know, resources, 176 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: and we're less afraid of dying of the plague, we're 177 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: able to move on to sort of next level things. 178 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: And you know, I'm I have two kids under three, 179 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: believe me, and I try to say this on every interview. 180 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: I get the instinct to protect the living hell out 181 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: of your kids and to do it at a level 182 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: that might and that you have to kind of rein 183 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: that in. But the problem is, for you know, good 184 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: twenty years now, there hasn't been a lot of people saying, listen, 185 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: by the way, there can actually be downsides to being 186 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: obsessed with both the physical and more particularly the emotional 187 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: quote unquote safety of your kids. There can actually be 188 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: consequences to that. And finally, people like Julie Lescott Hayms, 189 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: who wrote a book called How to Raise an Adult 190 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: and we interview in the book, or Lenor Skinesi, the 191 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: famous free range mom, are helping bring attention to the 192 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 2: idea that yes, there is a downside to this style 193 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: of parently. 194 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 3: I took you know, so it's so in our culture. 195 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: I took my son to the playground over the weekend 196 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,719 Speaker 3: at his school. He likes it when I take him 197 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 3: to his school so he can play on the monkey 198 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: bars the way he wants to. On the weekend, he 199 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 3: can climb up on top of him and stuff. He 200 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 3: can't do that during the school urs because they won't 201 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 3: let him. So I mean that we've got all these 202 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: so many different ways we're being attacked for doing anything 203 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 3: the slight bit edgy, starting when we're from when we're 204 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: really young, no wonder where, uh, you know, frightened of 205 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: the slightest discomfort. 206 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that also, unfortunately has to do with my 207 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: chosen profession, which tend to ruin everything lawyers. We have 208 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: a whole chapter on how at university is sort of 209 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: over thereocritization but also rightful and understandable concerns about lawsuits. 210 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: He is one of the things that causes us really exaggerated, 211 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: Oh my god, wrong, tremendous, dangerous. 212 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 3: Sense of her God, Dan it, this is so complicated 213 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 3: and so danger us for society. 214 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: Greg Lukianov, Greg, can we put you on hold for 215 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: just a couple of minutes and come back continue the discussion. 216 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: That'd be great, fantastic. 217 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to ask specifically about administrations on college 218 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: campuses and the nature of college education right now and 219 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: how it's contributing to the problem. 220 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: The Coddling of the American Mind, a book that needs 221 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: to be you know, read and discuss. Incredibly important. It 222 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: might be the most important thing we got going, all right, 223 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 3: So stay with us. You're listening to the Armstrong and 224 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 3: Getty Show, The Conscience. 225 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 4: Of the Nation, The Armstrong and Getty Show. 226 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 3: It's troubling, and I know I'm a part of it. 227 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: I know I'm a part of the coddling of the 228 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 3: American mind. We all are. It's a cultural societal thing, 229 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 3: and it plays out on our college campuses in such 230 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: bizarre ways. Oh my god. 231 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: Continuing the conversation with Greg Lukianoff, the co author with 232 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: Jonathan Hyde of The Coddling of the American Mind, how 233 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: good intentions and bad ideas are setting up a generation 234 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: for failure. You should know going in. My admiration for 235 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: mister lukianof mister Hyde is somewhere between righteous admiration and 236 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: they've got to get a restraining order. A very very 237 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: big fan of what you fellas are writing about. Just 238 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: a question, you know, wisdom and intelligence are practically unrelated. 239 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: I mean, you can see a lot of incredibly intelligent 240 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: people who just are completely out to see what is 241 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: motivating the super charged desire to promote Call it political correctness, 242 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: call it, you know, coddling minds, the velcaff syndrome, might 243 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: call it. Why is everybody so motivating do this on 244 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: college campuses? 245 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we talk about a bunch of different 246 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 2: threads in the book. We give about six different explanatory 247 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: threads about why some of these trends have gotten so 248 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: much worse. But part of it is that, you know, 249 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: there's not a lot of pushback on college campuses. And essentially, 250 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: once you create a echo chamber, things tend to get 251 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: much more intense, You have more polarization, people get more 252 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: radical in their points of view. And unfortunately the fact 253 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: is that even those universities have always been tilted more leftward, 254 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: they're now in in some departments, are more like eleven 255 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: to thirty to one in terms of ratios. Now, if 256 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: you don't have to have perfect parody or anything like that, 257 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: but now, you know, I know from my own experience 258 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: when I was in law school, for example, at Stanford 259 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: in California, that if you end up in a group 260 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: where everybody's just saying they're not disagreeing with you constructively, 261 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: they're just saying yeah. And you don't go far enough 262 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: to sort of more show off like how morally virtuous 263 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: they are instead of have a real discussion. It can 264 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: really spiral out of control quick. 265 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 3: Is there any reversing in this? I know we've pointed 266 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 3: out a couple of universities across the country where somebody 267 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: stood up in the administration and said, no where we've 268 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 3: taken this too far, written up eds that sort of thing. 269 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: Is there any reversing of this going on right now? 270 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 2: University of Chicago is definitely one of the schools that's 271 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 2: trying to push back on this, and they issued something 272 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: that is now simply noticed, the Chicago Statement, which is 273 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 2: a statement of academic freedom, kind of updated for the 274 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: modern age, a lot of like the old academic freedom statements, 275 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: the best of the last best ones came out in 276 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: like the nineteen seventies. So University of Chicago wrote this 277 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: great statement talking about how, you know, like we have 278 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: to stand by speech even when it's offensive, and you 279 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 2: don't disinvite someone who's invited because you don't like their 280 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: point of view and really trying to prepare students for 281 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: the just the fact that, when done correctly, education is 282 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,119 Speaker 2: going to be emotional. It's going to be difficult, it's 283 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: going to challenge you. It's going to hurt a little bit, 284 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: you know, in your head. And so far, the good 285 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: news is that about close to forty different schools across 286 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: the country have adopted some version of the Chicago statement. 287 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: Well, that's good, that's good news. So let's talk. Let's 288 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: go back to a point you were making earlier about 289 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: illustrating to parents the downside of, you know, turning their 290 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: kid into a veal calf, because you know, we all 291 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: think of terrible things that could happen. It's a natural 292 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: protective impulse, et cetera. I tweeted a couple of things 293 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: over the weekend on the theme that, since it's inevitable 294 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: that a monopoly on thought or a monopoly on opinion 295 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: always results in horror, if you can demonize or make 296 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: illegal other points of view. You know, every time we've 297 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: tried this in human history, it goes horribly horribly wrong. 298 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: You think that would be a fairly easy point to 299 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: illustrate to young, bright people attending colleges. 300 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, but part of the problem is, and this 301 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: is something that really brought Height Night together, is that, 302 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: you know, Bill Bishop pointed out in a book called 303 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: The Big Sort that we increasingly live in more politically 304 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: homogeneous not just counties, but even neighborhoods down to the 305 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: city block. So a lot of us don't even have, 306 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: you know, constructive people to disagree with who live next 307 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: to us. Add to that social media, which kind of 308 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: pats you on the back for having yourself in the 309 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: most effective echo chamber you can put together. And of 310 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: course some of these things are getting worse. And my 311 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: hope is that you know, it's social media is like 312 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: living in a brand new city, like it just it 313 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 2: just popped out of nowhere, and we're all wandering around 314 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: and we're you know, we're really messing it up and 315 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: really don't know how to live there. My hope is 316 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: that we'll get better and smarter about culturally dealing with 317 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: living in a society where we where we actually have 318 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: to fight to have exposure to ideas that challenge us. 319 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 3: And I like that you've expanded it looking at this 320 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 3: problem not just for the college campuses, even though it's 321 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 3: you know, particularly interesting there since it's the opposite of 322 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: what is supposed to happen on a college campus. But 323 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: all through life, the coddling of children's bodies and then 324 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: their minds in college and now you know, last week 325 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 3: the big story David Remnick disinviting Steve Bannon because it 326 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 3: wasn't people didn't want him to debate. I mean, in 327 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 3: all areas of our life, we're trying to avoid ideas 328 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 3: and feeling uncomfortable in any way. It's weird for a society. 329 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: And this is what Underguard is my whole I don't actually, 330 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: I don't think it's that weird. I think the situation 331 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: normal for most of human history is the way we 332 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: treat dissenters is we make them drink hemlock, We kick 333 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: them out of our communities, we chop off their heads, 334 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: we tie them to stakes and burn them. This is all. 335 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: This is history normal as we're tribal and we get 336 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: rid of people who disagree. But one of the greatest 337 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: inventions we've ever come up with as a species is, 338 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: oh my god, what if I actually listen to the 339 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: people who I really dislike? What if I actually see 340 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: if they have a point, what if I stop listening 341 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: just to my you know, neighbor and kin, And it's 342 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: it's funny because when you see people you know advocating 343 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: on camp for by the way, words are just another 344 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: form of violence. Opinions, you know, are inherently violent if 345 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: they're really offensive. What I always like to point out 346 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: is these aren't new ideas. These are very very old, 347 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: bad ideas. And yes, it's an invention to say that 348 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 2: there's a distinction entirely between opinions and violence. But as 349 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: I always say, it's also one of the best inventions 350 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: we've ever come up with. 351 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and in the minute we have left, it just 352 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: reminds me once again that human nature doesn't change a 353 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: lot of the language here is just a variation on 354 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: the charges of heresy that some twelfth century pope might 355 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: throw around. 356 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: That is exactly right. I wrote a piece called we 357 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: are All Blasphemers and pointed out how every last one 358 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: of us which should be executed in the eye of 359 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: someone either currently living in the world right now or 360 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 2: somewhere in history. 361 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 3: Wow, that's a good point right there. 362 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Indeed, Greg Lukianov, who's the author along with Jonathan 363 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: Height of the coddling of the American mind. I suggest 364 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: everybody in the world buy five copies and send it 365 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: to everybody. 366 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 2: You know. 367 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: Greg, It's always great to talk to you. Keep up 368 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: the good work, and we look for the next time. 369 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: Tremendously fun discussion. 370 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 3: Thank you, all right, thanks boy. And he's right. I'm wrong. 371 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 3: I'm right that it's weird for our culture, but it's 372 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: not weird for human history. It is the most common 373 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 3: thing for human history that you don't allow any other 374 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: point of view of the official one. Yeah. 375 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: Well, weird is in off putting and disturbing. I think 376 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: you're right about that.