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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background to show

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Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

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Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. One of the important stories that's come

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Speaker 1: out of COVID is the disruption of the global supply chain.

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Speaker 1: If you've recently tried to buy a new car or

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Speaker 1: some furniture, you know all about this problem. The system

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Speaker 1: of making and distributing goods around the world is not

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Speaker 1: working quite the way we're accustomed to it working, and

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Speaker 1: we're not exactly clear on how to fix it. For

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Speaker 1: today's show, we wanted to speak to someone could explain

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Speaker 1: what's going on to us and deepen our understanding and

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Speaker 1: knowledge of this headline topic, supply chain disruption. I'm very

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Speaker 1: glad to say that our fantastic team here at Deep

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Speaker 1: Background found someone who could do exactly that. Hannah Kane

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Speaker 1: is the founder and CEO of a Loom, a global

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Speaker 1: supply chain company based in California. She has decades of

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Speaker 1: experience in supply chain management, and I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: to her about what's causing supply chain slowdowns, what we

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Speaker 1: should think of the supply chain as actually being the

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Speaker 1: role that government has to play in this and how

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Speaker 1: we make our way out of it over time. Hannah,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. So, when we

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Speaker 1: entered this COVID world, many people who were consumers spent

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Speaker 1: exactly zero time ever thinking about the words supply chain.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure if one ran any kind of a company

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Speaker 1: that made a product, these were everyday, day to day concerns.

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Speaker 1: But the sense from the end consumer's perspective was it's

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Speaker 1: all under control, right, We're convinced there are people out

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Speaker 1: there like you who are expert in it, who keep

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Speaker 1: it all flowing, and the rest of us just didn't

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Speaker 1: worry about it very much. Then COVID came and suddenly

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Speaker 1: everyone noticed that we were interdependent on one another in

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Speaker 1: a very complex set of ways. And then people started

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Speaker 1: using the words supply chain problems to justify almost any change.

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Speaker 1: Was there a particular feature in your view of the

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Speaker 1: COVID disruptions. Are there specific moments or events that you

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Speaker 1: could point to as inherently transformative that sort of put

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Speaker 1: your topic on the front page or was this just

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Speaker 1: a slow, gradual thing that the rest of you were

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Speaker 1: following the entire time and the rest of the world

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Speaker 1: only noticed it because of these events well, it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of both. So for a long time we

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Speaker 1: have been teaching at the edge of the ABYSS when

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Speaker 1: it comes to supply, and many of us have already

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Speaker 1: wasted flags because things like infrastructure has been totally underserved.

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Speaker 1: When you look at at our population growth, we are

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Speaker 1: essentially in the US thirty three percent more population over

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Speaker 1: the last three decades, and we're allmost invested in the

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Speaker 1: new infrastructure. And that is a huge problem because we

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Speaker 1: know that the demand is going up, but in the

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Speaker 1: end we need to have the infrastructure to keep up

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Speaker 1: with that. So we knew things like infrastructure was the problem.

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Speaker 1: We also know that regulations are exploding. And when I

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Speaker 1: say regulations, it's things like how do you get product

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Speaker 1: from point A to point B. You've got to get

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Speaker 1: it out of one country into another country. The bureaucracy

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Speaker 1: and the regulations concerning that keep increasing. We are at

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Speaker 1: a trade wall with a number of different open countries,

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Speaker 1: and that trade those trade walls really heavily impact the

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Speaker 1: supply team. So all of this is not really COVID related.

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Speaker 1: You know, we saw it coming. We've been dealing with

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Speaker 1: it for a long time. Edge of the ABYSS is

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Speaker 1: a very strong formulation. And it's fascinating because I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course it's going to leave it to ask you

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Speaker 1: whether we're now in the ABYSS or whether we're still

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Speaker 1: clinging to the edge of it. But before I ask

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Speaker 1: you that infrastructure, do you mean give some examples? Do

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Speaker 1: you mean ports where products arrive, roads where things are

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Speaker 1: carried by trucks, railroad? What are the features of infrastructure

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Speaker 1: in the US that seemed particular lead to have been

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Speaker 1: teetering on the edge of the abyss to you? I

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Speaker 1: think pots are a really good example, and that's mainly

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Speaker 1: the seaports. We also have some restrictions on our airports,

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Speaker 1: restrictions on planes and trock limitations. We certainly have a

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Speaker 1: big crisis when it comes to a number of truck drivers.

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Speaker 1: We simply have two few truck drivers. And this already

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Speaker 1: started and had become an issue before COVID. But what

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Speaker 1: happened with COVID was really that all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: we saw a big demand shift. Demand switched to home partucts,

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Speaker 1: shift to shifted to different parduct types, and and all

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Speaker 1: the travel money went away and instead it was used

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Speaker 1: on getting a new, more fancy home television home set

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Speaker 1: up for your home office, etc. And all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden that demand shift happened. So that was a really

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Speaker 1: big supply chain event that happened in the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. And then you had the other The other

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Speaker 1: problem was that you had the disruption and the labor

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Speaker 1: and that was a global issue. So those two issues

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Speaker 1: to get have made it now it's too complex. So

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Speaker 1: if you think back a couple of yes, you could

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Speaker 1: probably do a fodcast that was ninety percent great. You

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Speaker 1: could probably plan for ninety to ninety eight percent of

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Speaker 1: all events that were going to happen. And here during

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Speaker 1: COVID we have been lucky if we've been hitting fifty

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Speaker 1: sixty seventy percent great focast. And then when you look

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Speaker 1: at what the SAT mean and supply chain, it means said,

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Speaker 1: you're buying the wrong thing. I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the demand shift and I want to talk about the

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Speaker 1: labor disruptions, both of which I think are hugely fascinating

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Speaker 1: and important, and also both of which are relevant to

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Speaker 1: the question of inflation. But I also want to ask

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Speaker 1: you about how unique the United States is with respect

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Speaker 1: to these infrastructure problems, because in other places in the

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Speaker 1: world that at least I traveled to. Back when we

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Speaker 1: traveled more, it struck me that, at least at a

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Speaker 1: superficial level, the infrastructure seemed much fresher, much newer, and

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Speaker 1: much more updated than in the US. I don't just

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Speaker 1: mean Western European countries, where Americans who are accustomed to

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Speaker 1: traveling to those countries in the last thirty or forty

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Speaker 1: years are accustomed to seeing the infrastructure as being really

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Speaker 1: superior to US infrastructure, but also in countries that one

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Speaker 1: might have thought of as developing countries, some of which

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Speaker 1: are not so developing anymore and are are pretty developed,

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Speaker 1: but some of which are really still very much developing countries,

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Speaker 1: which still looked like they had newer airports, newer roads.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an expert in seaports, but you could drive

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Speaker 1: by and see large, functioning seaports that looked like they

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Speaker 1: were fancier than the ones that we see, at least

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Speaker 1: in the northeast. Am I right to think that the

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Speaker 1: US lagging behind an infrastructure is pretty distinctive? It is.

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Speaker 1: It most definitely is, and certainly I mean the physical infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: We're definitely lagging, and especially compared to some of the

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Speaker 1: growing Asian nations. There are some great standouts in Asia

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Speaker 1: where they built infrastructure and in a very impressive manner,

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Speaker 1: China Coast in one of them, Singapore, Japan to a

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Speaker 1: very large extent. And then there are some countries that

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Speaker 1: are lagging behind, and we are seeing as we already

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Speaker 1: pre pandemic, we saw a shift away from China with

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Speaker 1: shifting productions to a country like Vietnam where also the

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Speaker 1: infrastructure is really lacking and companies have their product get

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Speaker 1: stuck in Vietnam because they cannot get it moved, they

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Speaker 1: cannot get it out of the country, and so it's

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Speaker 1: a course of board. Infrastructure really important and it's an

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Speaker 1: important consideration when you design your supply team. Where is

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Speaker 1: the infrastructure that can really help you. Another area where

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Speaker 1: the US is, of course lacking, is in the technology.

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Speaker 1: We are not nearly as advanced as some of the

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Speaker 1: top players within broadband and speed of the networks and

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Speaker 1: for that matter, coverage in remote areas. So that's another

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Speaker 1: area we need to work on. You mentioned, and the

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Speaker 1: regulatory barriers to smooth supply chain operation. The trade wars

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Speaker 1: I sort of can account for. I personally don't believe

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Speaker 1: they're rational. I don't think they're helping for the most part,

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Speaker 1: at least in the United States and the trade wars

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Speaker 1: that we've started in recent years. But at least I

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Speaker 1: can understand where they come from. Right, there's a domestic

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Speaker 1: sentiment that says we're getting taken advantage of by other countries.

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Speaker 1: There are interests domestically that imagine that it will lead

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Speaker 1: to more US jobs. There's not a lot of evidence

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Speaker 1: that always happens, but at least you can understand the impulse.

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Speaker 1: But what about the other kinds of regulatory barriers that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned. I mean, what's in it for the regulators?

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Speaker 1: Who is asking for greater regulatory intervention in ordinary effective trade? Well,

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Speaker 1: let me give you a couple of examples. California decide that,

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Speaker 1: in order to get products from the ports and into

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Speaker 1: the country, use something called yage. Those twyage trucks have

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Speaker 1: traditional in the most polluting trucks on the road, and

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Speaker 1: California decided that you cannot use trucks that are older

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Speaker 1: than yet two thousand and eleven to move products from

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Speaker 1: the port. And that regulation then meant that many of

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Speaker 1: the truckers simply could not do it, could not move

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Speaker 1: that product. And so that's a small part of the

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Speaker 1: port crisis, but certainly it happens. And I think we

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Speaker 1: all have the sympathy for the environmental regulations that we

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Speaker 1: don't want polluting trucks out there, but this is an

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Speaker 1: example of where where the balance may shift and it

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Speaker 1: may become more difficult. Another type of regulation is hope

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Speaker 1: for social responsibility, where you can say child's labor, we

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Speaker 1: don't want any child's labor or other human rights abuses

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Speaker 1: in the supply chain, and had then creates some intrigacies

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Speaker 1: in where you place the supply chain and how you

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Speaker 1: are able to run. So there's a lot of regulationship

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Speaker 1: are very important in many ways, but certainly they impact

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Speaker 1: a supply chain. We'll be right back, Hannah. You spoke

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Speaker 1: of the demand shift that happened at COVID when suddenly

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Speaker 1: consumers didn't want to buy the same things they previously

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Speaker 1: wanted to buy. I recognize that that can cause problems

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Speaker 1: for the supply chain. If I'm running a company and

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Speaker 1: I suddenly need some product that I didn't otherwise have,

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Speaker 1: and where I need more of something that I had

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Speaker 1: a little bit of, is it fundamentally a supply chain

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Speaker 1: problem though, or is that fundamentally just the kind of

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Speaker 1: economic problem that sometimes arises, right? I mean, if we

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Speaker 1: said that there is a change in supply of a

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Speaker 1: product or a change in demand of a product, those

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Speaker 1: seem to be underlying economic forces that they impinge on

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Speaker 1: the supply chain, but they don't seem to be answerable

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Speaker 1: as it were, just via the supply chain. Well, it

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Speaker 1: certainly it becomes the supply chain problem because you need

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Speaker 1: to be able to produce what the consumer wants in

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Speaker 1: the end. That's what it's about, is producing what is

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Speaker 1: needed and getting it to the location where it's needed.

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Speaker 1: And so when we saught the demand shift, of course

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Speaker 1: companies have to respond and it creates a lot of

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Speaker 1: problems when we have these big swings. As we saw,

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Speaker 1: the swings are becoming bigger over time, and it's a

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Speaker 1: very interesting thing. I think social media is driving a

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Speaker 1: lot of the demand shifts. That many people go and

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Speaker 1: buy what others seem to be buying, and so you

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Speaker 1: get these big shifts, and of course they need to

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Speaker 1: be produced. What also has happened over time is that

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Speaker 1: we as consumers have gotten really spoiled when we get

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Speaker 1: it in any type, configuration color it said right that

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Speaker 1: we want. And one of the ways companies have tried

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Speaker 1: to minimize complexity and focus on at least getting product

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Speaker 1: out in the supply chain is to cut down on

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Speaker 1: the number of selections. And you see that a little

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Speaker 1: bit when you're out shopping, that there's a little bit

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Speaker 1: less selection these days than they used to be. Not

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Speaker 1: that we are suffering any big card shifts, but it's

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Speaker 1: a good way to decrease the complexity. And complexity is

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Speaker 1: really a big issue in supply chain right now because

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Speaker 1: the systems cannot handle it, and because there's so many

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Speaker 1: unexpected events, and supply chain professionals are joggling all these

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Speaker 1: balls in the air because of those shifts. The complexity

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Speaker 1: also seems to be part of our current moment of consumerism,

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Speaker 1: where I not only understand that if I go to

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Speaker 1: the shop, the product that I want may exist in

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Speaker 1: ten colors, but I expect it to exist in those

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Speaker 1: colors as well, and that's sort of what keeps me

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Speaker 1: buying in some sense, at least to the low end

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Speaker 1: of expenses. But when you gave that answer, which is

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Speaker 1: totally fascinating to me, I had this feeling that maybe

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Speaker 1: people are using the words supply chain is kind of

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Speaker 1: an excuse to kind of catch all excuse that, at

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Speaker 1: least for some consumers, I think, I include myself here

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Speaker 1: might be misleading. So you know, it's been COVID. I've

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Speaker 1: been sitting on my couch a lot. My couch isn't

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Speaker 1: very good. It's time for a new couch. So I go,

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Speaker 1: this actually happened to me recently. I go shopping for

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Speaker 1: the couch and they say, oh, for that couch, the

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Speaker 1: weight will be you know, nine months. And I say, well,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness, that seems like a long time to

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Speaker 1: wait for the couch, and they say, well, supply chain.

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Speaker 1: Then they also say, but actually there is one color,

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Speaker 1: and if you get that couch in this one color,

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Speaker 1: we actually do have those, and those are in the

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Speaker 1: warehouse and you can get those. Now, I guess it

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Speaker 1: is a supply chain question. You're convincing me that everything

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Speaker 1: is a supply chain question, because if they have something

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Speaker 1: in the warehouse and I can get it, that means

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Speaker 1: the supply chains has sent it here and it's functioned correctly,

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Speaker 1: and if I'm willing to buy the product, you know,

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Speaker 1: even if it's not the color that I would have

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Speaker 1: first chosen. Pretty good, right, It's a pretty good outcome.

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Speaker 1: The year weight for the sofa or the couch and

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Speaker 1: the color that I would have wanted. Seems to be

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Speaker 1: that they're using the word supply chain as a shorthand

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Speaker 1: for We had no idea so many people were going

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Speaker 1: to want to buy sofas, and so it takes a

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Speaker 1: while to make the new sofas. And we also have

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Speaker 1: to hire people. You spoke about labor. We have to

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Speaker 1: hire people in the factory wherever that is to build

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Speaker 1: these sofas, and we need to hire truckers so that

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Speaker 1: the sofa can be transported, and if it's coming internationally,

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Speaker 1: it has to come in through report. But they're using

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Speaker 1: supply chain effectively as a grab bag to mean all

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Speaker 1: of those things, and I think too many consumers, at

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Speaker 1: least to myself, it sounds like they're saying, oh, it

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Speaker 1: just takes a long time for it to get here,

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Speaker 1: or something like that, or you know, there was a

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Speaker 1: particular part of the fabric that we can't get enough

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Speaker 1: of because people want that. But the reality seems to

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Speaker 1: be that they just didn't anticipate that there would be

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Speaker 1: the kind of demand that there is, and they can't

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Speaker 1: be blamed for that. I mean, no one could have

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Speaker 1: anticipated we would all spend such a higher percentage of

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Speaker 1: our days sitting on our couch than we previously did.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like the words supply chain are covering many,

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Speaker 1: many different causes of delays. That is correct, and that's

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Speaker 1: because I gained the supply chain is ultra complex and

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Speaker 1: there are many different places where you can have and

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Speaker 1: currently you have delays in the supply chain. And so

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Speaker 1: what supply chain professionals do is they try to work

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Speaker 1: around these delays and try to circumvent them. But you

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Speaker 1: can only do so much. If we step back and

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Speaker 1: look at this over a long time and sort of

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Speaker 1: from a more macroeconomic standpoint, what has happened over the

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Speaker 1: last thirty years is we have driven cost of manufactured

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Speaker 1: goods down and down and down, so it's now cheaper

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Speaker 1: than ever to buy a thing, and that's of all

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Speaker 1: a good thing. That downside that we are seeing now

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Speaker 1: is as we are producing cheap things in cheap countries

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Speaker 1: and cheaper countries and driving down the manufactured cost, we

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Speaker 1: are increasing the risk and we are also increasing the

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Speaker 1: supply chain cost, the supply chain cost of transportation and customs,

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Speaker 1: cleerens and all of those type of things, and governance

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Speaker 1: for that matter. So that's what we're seeing right now,

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Speaker 1: and explosion and those costs. It's not really that the

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Speaker 1: things are getting much more expensive to manufacture. It's all

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Speaker 1: the extra supply chain cost, and we are seeing the

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Speaker 1: increased problems in managing that complexity. So I'm sorry you

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Speaker 1: have to wait for your sofa. I can't help you

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Speaker 1: get it there far. I just I just took the

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Speaker 1: one color they had in stock because I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to wait a year for za. You know, I was

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Speaker 1: a good soldier at least with respect of that decision. Labor, So,

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Speaker 1: labor cost is obviously an important part of making anything

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Speaker 1: and an important part of transporting anything. And as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: manufacturing costs have been going down, and some of that

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Speaker 1: is by pushing down wages in some places and times,

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Speaker 1: but more of it is by gaining efficiencies from other aspects.

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Speaker 1: Right now, at least in the United States, the cost

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Speaker 1: of labor is very high for complex reasons that no

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Speaker 1: one fully understands. That that that I have to do with

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Speaker 1: people coming back from COVID and deciding they're not going

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Speaker 1: back to the jobs they were in before and they

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Speaker 1: don't wish to participate in the official economy in that way.

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Speaker 1: When you think about labor in its relationship to the

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Speaker 1: supply chain, how do you think of that. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a course abort. So we already, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: have a labor crisis, ongoing labor crisis in truck Trucking

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Speaker 1: has been an area where we have seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of retirement and not a lot of new people coming in,

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Speaker 1: and so that has been a big concern for a

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Speaker 1: while and been talked about for a while. But you're right,

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing right now is an emotional shift where

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Speaker 1: everybody is asking themselves whether they're working the right job

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Speaker 1: and whether they want to do something different, and it's

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Speaker 1: certainly impacting the supply chain big time. You're also seeing

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Speaker 1: an increased need for staff in the supply chain, so

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Speaker 1: a lot of the workforce have shifted from retail to

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Speaker 1: supply chain. So we're buying more and more online, We're

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Speaker 1: getting more and more shipped to our homes, so people

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Speaker 1: move from retail into warehouses. There's a big move to

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Speaker 1: automate much of what's going on and the supply chain,

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Speaker 1: but there's still we still need labor, and so I

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Speaker 1: am very concerned about the inflation that we are seeing

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Speaker 1: and the inflationary pressures coming from the labor as well

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Speaker 1: as inflation or materials and components coming in and for

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Speaker 1: that to finish good, so the cost is just going

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Speaker 1: up tremendously. I think we are going to see the

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Speaker 1: supply chain crisis continuing for another several years. And I

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Speaker 1: think supply chain issues are going to stick with us

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Speaker 1: for a while until we get the infrastructure fixed, until

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Speaker 1: we get more automation in the supply chain, until we

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Speaker 1: get better systems to be able to handle with all

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Speaker 1: the exceptions that we deal with in supply chain. So

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Speaker 1: definitely a lot of big investments need to happen and

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Speaker 1: development needs to happen before we are in a position

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Speaker 1: where we can say supply chain is just humming it all.

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Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing you saying is that the process

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Speaker 1: of not only manufacturing but of delivering things is a

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Speaker 1: process that is still very human intensive. Right, Maybe someday

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Speaker 1: we'll have automated trucks, but we don't have automated trucks.

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Speaker 1: Maybe someday we'll have a way in a fully automated fashion,

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Speaker 1: and to take the products off the ship at the

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Speaker 1: port and put it onto the trucks or the trains

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Speaker 1: and get it from place to place. We don't. We

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Speaker 1: still require human beings to participate in this. So I

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Speaker 1: guess the question I want to end with is, when

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Speaker 1: you say, you know, well we need more automation in

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Speaker 1: this space, how fast can that happen and how good

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Speaker 1: will that be? Are these jobs that can be replaced

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Speaker 1: by automation as opposed to by humans, at least in

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Speaker 1: the foreseeable future, and will that lead to the opposite effect,

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Speaker 1: an effect where many many people whose jobs depend on

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Speaker 1: being the human beings who operate the supply chain find

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Speaker 1: themselves desperately needing some other kind of work, much as

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Speaker 1: we've seen in manufacturing, where many relatively good blue collar

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Speaker 1: jobs went away, and to the extent they're replaced, they're

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Speaker 1: replaced by much less appealing surface sector jobs. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is it basically the case that that's going to happen

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Speaker 1: and elsewhere in the supply chain as well. It just

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Speaker 1: hasn't happened yet. I am a firm believer that automation

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Speaker 1: and it's not a bad deal, and that it's all

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Speaker 1: about how we transition the workforce. I don't see right

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Speaker 1: now that we're going to have a surplus workforce. I

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Speaker 1: see that we are very much in need of more workforce,

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Speaker 1: and I think that trend is going to stay with

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Speaker 1: us for a long time. And the other thing we

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Speaker 1: can do, apart from, of course, automation, is to go

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Speaker 1: in and say, maybe we can do more near sourcing

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Speaker 1: and not have to transport products so far distances. We

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Speaker 1: are seeing that right now, corporations are coming in and saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we have so much cost in transporting all these goods around,

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Speaker 1: maybe we can buy some of them locally where we

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Speaker 1: need them and closer to the market. And so that's

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Speaker 1: called near sourcing and a really strong strategy from a

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Speaker 1: sustainability standpoint. But also it takes risks down. The closer

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Speaker 1: you are to the less, the less can go wrong

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Speaker 1: in the supply chain, and so that may be a

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Speaker 1: possible opportunity for small and mid sized companies also to

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Speaker 1: come in and play a stronger role in the supply chain.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lots of good things that could come

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Speaker 1: out of this as cooperations, A reevaluating their supply chains.

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Speaker 1: And I want to thank you so much for educating

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Speaker 1: me and our listeners and for the fascinating and important

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Speaker 1: work that you do. And I guess I want to

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Speaker 1: apologize on behalf of all of us for not paying

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Speaker 1: enough attention to the significance and importance of supply chain

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Speaker 1: affairs until suddenly we experience disruptions. Thank you very much,

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Speaker 1: Thank you. We'll be right back. Talking to Hannah Kane

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Speaker 1: brought home some reality to me that I truly did

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Speaker 1: not anticipate before speaking to her. Maybe, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of you, I've mostly taken the excuse supply chain delays

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Speaker 1: to be a reasonable explanation of the difficulty in getting

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Speaker 1: goods to market in the time of COVID. But as

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Speaker 1: Hannah argued, we were on the edge of the abyss

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Speaker 1: her striking phrase even before COVID happened. In other words,

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Speaker 1: the global supply chain was already extraordinarily delicate, and as

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Speaker 1: population grew, regulation not only the good kind, but also

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Speaker 1: the kind that comes with trade wars, was increased, and

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Speaker 1: as our infrastructure above all continued to degrade. In the

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Speaker 1: United States, we were already, without quite knowing it, in

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Speaker 1: a position where the slightest disruption to our regular economy

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Speaker 1: could really break the supply chain in a range of ways.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, just in time, servicing had made

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Speaker 1: us expect to get things when we wanted them, how

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Speaker 1: we wanted them, in a way that was probably ultimately unsustainable.

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Speaker 1: It follows from this that the major shifts of the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: the demand shift, the labor shift, and other challenges, we're

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Speaker 1: just really the straw that broke the camel's back, albeit

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Speaker 1: a rather a large bale of straw. That means, according

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Speaker 1: to Hannah, that we're not going to see a rapid

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Speaker 1: turnaround or a set of improvements in the global supply

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Speaker 1: chain just because things begin to get back to a

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Speaker 1: new normal post COVID. Instead, we're going to have to

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Speaker 1: actually build better infrastructure. We're gonna have to engage in

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Speaker 1: a rationalization of our trade policies if and when that

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Speaker 1: actually happens. We're gonna have to develop norms appropriate to

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Speaker 1: a consumer economy where we can't always expect to get

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Speaker 1: everything we want magically when we want it. And most troublingly,

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Speaker 1: according to Hannah, we also need substantial automation through the

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Speaker 1: supply chain. As you heard That's a little worrisome because

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Speaker 1: the kinds of jobs that the supply chain historically supported

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Speaker 1: in transport were at least sometimes relatively good blue collar jobs,

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Speaker 1: many times unionized jobs. If those are going to go

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Speaker 1: away as part of the rationalization of the supply chain,

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Speaker 1: it means further problems of the kind were already familiar

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Speaker 1: with as manufacturing jobs have gone away. That means that

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Speaker 1: making the global supply chain hum again is going to

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Speaker 1: have distributive effects in our real economy, distributive effects that

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Speaker 1: we have to develop good policy solutions to address in

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Speaker 1: a manner that is fair and just. Regular listeners of

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Speaker 1: this podcast know that I am no MBA, and I

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Speaker 1: have the feeling that my ignorance of the everyday processes

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Speaker 1: of how a business transports things around the world was

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Speaker 1: particularly in evidence today. But maybe for that reason, I

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Speaker 1: found this conversation especially powerful and especially illuminating, and I

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Speaker 1: certainly appreciated Hannakane's extreme clarity of analysis and purpose. Until

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Speaker 1: the next time I speak to you, breathe deep, think

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Speaker 1: deep thoughts, and have a little fun. If you're a

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Speaker 1: regular listener, you know I love communicating with you here

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Speaker 1: on deep background. I also really want that communication to

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00:27:27,396 --> 00:27:30,036
Speaker 1: run both ways. I want to know what you think

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00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:33,036
Speaker 1: are the most important stories of the moment, and what

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Speaker 1: kinds of guests do you think it would be useful

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Speaker 1: to hear from. More So, I'm opening a new channel

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00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:41,756
Speaker 1: of communication. To access it, just go to my website

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Speaker 1: Noah Dashfelman dot com. You can sign up from my

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Speaker 1: newsletter and you can tell me exactly what's on your mind,

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Speaker 1: something that would be really valuable to me and I

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Speaker 1: hope to you too. Deep background is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is mo La Board, our

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Speaker 1: engineer is Bent Holliday, and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mccibbon.

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Speaker 1: Editorial support from noam Osband. Theme music by Luis Gara

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Speaker 1: at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobelle, Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott,

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Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Carlie mcgliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg.

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Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman.

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Speaker 1: I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you

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Speaker 1: can find at Bloomberg dot com. Slash Feldman to discover

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts. Go to Bloomberg dot com

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Speaker 1: deep background