WEBVTT - Understanding Rojava’s Tishrin Dam Resistance 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:07.160 Cause Media. Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:09.920 It's James today and I'm joined by Jenny Keston, who's 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.400 a writer, activist and someone who's been in and out 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:14.320 of Northeast Syria for a long time working with the 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.400 women's movement, and today we're going to be talking about 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.880 the situation in North and East Syria since the fall 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.120 of the Asad regime, some of the conflict that has 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.440 been happening in the resistance of the SDF. 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.240 Welcome to the show, Jenny either. Yeah, first of all, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.880 it's not sure having him really happy to be here. Yeah, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:32.960 you're welcome, of course. 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.639 So I think if we start off, people have been 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:41.400 messaging me a lot of various platforms about the letter 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.320 that abdulah or Jerland wrote, and I don't want to 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:46.360 dress that in its entirety today because we've got something 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:47.879 coming up on that we're going to talk to some 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:52.120 people from the Freedom for Abdullah campaign, but I do 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.320 want to use it as a jumping off point because 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.760 I think it a has reminded people, as we spoke 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.600 about before the show, that not the Syria exists and 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.600 the SDF exists, which has been largely missing, and like 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:09.640 the legacy media reporting on Syria, but be like, there's 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.880 been atrocious reporting on what it means for the SDF, 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:15.959 even though there's a very clear answer to that. So 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.440 for people who have you been reading papers which either 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:22.959 just ignore the existence of the FDF entirely or speculate 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:24.520 as to what they're going to do when they've given 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:25.840 a very clear answer, could. 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.800 You explain to people like where this leaves the SDF. 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.000 Yeah, sure, no, So thanks for that, And yeah, I've 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.000 also been gay a lot of questions about chans later 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:37.959 and I'm really glad to hear that you guys are 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.520 going to do a program on it, because Western media 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:43.800 wants to divorce it in this way. It's very snazzy 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.160 and there's like bolts with the blue and something crazy 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.520 has happening. Really, it's unfortunately it has to actually be 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.680 talking about in a kind of more long term and 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.279 intelligent way that sets the context and like, yeah, puts 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:57.760 that and makes things a bit more clear because it 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.880 is something with the background and it's connected to a 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.480 lot of things, and of course that whole political process 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:06.080 that Johan's recent statement is a part of, it's going 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.840 to affect the situation here in northern East Siria, because 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.280 the situation here a lot of the time depends on 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:14.880 the actions of the Turkish state and on expansionism an 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.079 aggression from there, and so as the political situation shouldn't changes, 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.640 it will affect that. What it is not is like 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.840 a call or a statement that means that the SDF 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:27.800 has to lay down their arms and start this thing. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.200 This is for several reasons, absolutely not what it is. 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.640 The main one of those being that the SDF is not, 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.600 and never has been, the PAA, and that's something that 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.280 they've tried many times over the years to made very clear, 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.919 but unfortunately hasn't always been like heard and acknowledged. 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.200 And so whatever this statement means. 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:49.640 That you guys will go into that in your program, 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.720 whatever it is for the PKKA. But the situation not 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.680 fair to stand. It's a different situation here, and so 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.680 the SDF is in a moment of like question and 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:02.960 a big change. But it's much more to do with 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.960 what's been happening in Syria politically and to do with 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.480 the government and the interim government had said, yeah, government 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:12.680 that installed themselves here and the regime things, and of 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.760 course the ongoing war and situation of invasions that they're facing. 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.639 So there's a lot of big questions for the SCF. 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:21.679 But I think it's important right now that we don't 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.680 kind of confuse and misunderstand with the sort of parallel 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:25.600 process that's going on. 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.960 Yeah, definitely, And I think if people are hearing this 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.239 and you're new to the show, this is your first 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.760 time hearing the sea of acronyms. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:35.760 That is the Kurdish Freedom movement. 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.360 I coadereict you to The Women's War, which is a 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.240 series that Robert made. I have a book, but you 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:44.320 can't read it yet, still editing it. Or you could 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.200 listen to one of our numerous if you search for 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.400 a Java or Northern East Syria or Syria in our feed, 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.560 I'm sure you'll find a lot to explain those acronyms 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.000 to you. But yeah, we've had this situation right where 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:00.680 since December, the situation in Syria has drastically change and 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.120 we now have two state actors. 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:04.640 Well, we have lots of stay active. 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.800 We always had lots of state actors intervening in Syria, 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.320 but we have this new state actor in the Syrian 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.320 state right And I think people if they're you know, 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.799 if they're like reading the New York Times or god forbid, 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.880 seeing Charles Lister, then that they'll have a certain vision 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.720 of this that sort of exempts the SDF. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.240 It sort of just ignores this. 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.240 Whole area of Syria and says like, oh, well, the 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.760 Syrian Revolution has succeeded. I think we should address, like 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:36.640 what has happened to the SDF to northern East Syria 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.880 since the collapse of the ASAD regime in December. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.800 Yeah, so obviously what's happened to Aysyia in. 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.159 Northern Assyria and t SDF is very connected to the 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.120 whole overall stereo process, And you're right when you hear 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.560 the reporting on it, I think lots of parts of 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.080 it can get erased in kind of depending who's talking 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.160 and what their angle is or whatever. 0:04:58.360 --> 0:04:59.920 There are a lot of things left out not just 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:00.960 occurred in North. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.279 Of East Syria, but other minority ethnic groups or like 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.280 women organizing across Syria, like all of these things. It's 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.640 a very complex situation which I won't pretend I can 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.880 completely lay out and summarize for everyone in five minutes. 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.440 But yeah, what you did have was the culmination the 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.440 end of a period and a massive change when as 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:23.440 you say, there was a regime change, there was a 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:26.160 change of government, and that happened with this like offensive 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.400 sweeping down from Idland to Damascus, succeeding in taking over 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.480 the government in Damascus from the Asad family, which was 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.960 the end of a sixty one year rain, which caused 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.880 absolute jubilation. It's safe to say all across Syria, and 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.680 that includes where I am, and none from Syria because anyway, 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.240 just yeah, people were very happy in celebrating. But also 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.800 there were cities here. When you look at the map 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.400 and you see this like semi autonomous region, what you 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.640 had to understand was that there were actually within the cities, 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.120 there were neighborhoods and sections that were still under the 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.960 Asad government. It wasn't as simple as like the whole 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.080 city is in the autonomous administration. 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:06.360 So here as well, even there were still. 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.640 Statutes of a Sad and people took the streets and 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.880 tore them down, and really close to actually where I'm 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.560 recording this today, there's a roundabout where they took down 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.359 the statue of a Sad and it's been replaced by 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.279 pictures of the martyrs of people who have fallen fighting 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.560 for the autonomy of the region here and fighting for 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:23.680 their political system. 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:25.440 So you know, it's very very beautiful. 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:30.160 People celebrated and more happy with a qualifier, with a 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.320 very big qualifier, you know. So that jails opened as 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:35.839 well and the flags went up, and yeah, it was 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:41.080 a real moment of jubilation, celebration. But unfortunately the force 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.360 which eventually succeeded in toppling a SAD and installing itself 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.120 as the now as they're saying, the interim or transitional 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.520 government of Syria, you know, we can say it was 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:57.240 not one of the many like progressive democratic alternative forces 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.720 the originally in the uprisings the SA government, yeah, back 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.760 in twenty and eleven. Since then, things have changed. And 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.160 isn't a podcast directly about that. I'm sure you guys 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.880 speak about it as well at other times. But instead 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:14.239 what you have is hts who are kind of conglomerate 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.640 militia of these different militia groups. There's another acronym for 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:18.920 you there names I. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:24.600 Think, yeah, three languages acronyms. Pointing people to resources is. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.720 Always very useful, and they are kind of mixed up 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.520 amalgamation of different militias who are operating in Syria, and 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:36.680 what's crucial to say about them is. 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.360 That they're you know, their political background and perspective. A 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.080 lot of people in these organizations. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.920 Are like really really similar unfortunately and all too familiar 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.160 to the people here who fought against ISIS, the Islamic State, 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:53.400 because they're coming from similar backgrounds, and also to al 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.239 Qaeda and the organizations who were kind of the Syrian 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:57.480 branches of al Qaeda. 0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:59.520 But like, yeah, I've played a really direct role. 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.320 In finding and they want to now sort of put 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.120 on a new face, put on a suit, go out 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.600 and shake the world's hand and become world statesmen from 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.560 the government, which unfortunately it looks like all of our 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:13.560 governments are all too willing to very quickly accept. 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:15.520 And we'll get in a minute. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.200 We can talk a bit specifically about the roles and 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.000 almost your listeners are in the States, so that the 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:25.040 American government has been playing here. But yes, so there's 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.240 a big qualifier on how much people are celebrating because 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.520 of the very dodgy history and the real like threat 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.480 the xcs's politics holds unfortunately, particularly for ethnic and minorities, 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.439 on women, and they're establishing their power and it's by 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.360 no means a kind of non violent or peaceful process, 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.000 and there's a lot of tensions flaring up with a 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.280 lot of problems. However, yes, it is the case that 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.440 in a lot of Syria, the majority of Syria outright, 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.600 like warfare on the ground as for an asstop because 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.640 there's one group have taken power and so we're in 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.720 a different moment, We're in a different process. So what's 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.120 different up here, what's different up in the north and east, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.720 and what's not being discussed as much. And the point 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:08.320 that I'm often trying to make, what I'm trying to 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.680 write articles and doing interviews at the moment, is that like, 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.720 actually the war in the whole of Syria has not 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:18.400 completely stopped. Yea, mostly yes, you can say in most regions, 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:22.240 but significantly here in northern Eastyria. It's not just that 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.000 there is still classes or flare ups between different groups 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:27.880 like there might be in other regions. There is like 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.160 a full scale invasion, a ground invasion with air. 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.840 Support that has also been going on. Yeah, and that 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.320 was tied. Where has that come from? Like what is that? 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.480 Ones that look like this is another group another history 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:41.800 letter Drinn for you. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.679 But the important thing to understand is that this offensive 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.400 was tying to coincide with the HCS takeover it. FCS 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.600 also has a lot of links with the Perkish state, 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:54.760 and I wouldn't I personally would bot goose with bars 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.080 to say that that government is a Turkish public government 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.160 or that the relationship is that direct, But there is 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.640 a relationship, and what you saw when they kind of 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.520 successfully went on the offensive was at the same time, 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.960 other armed groups which operate are kind of loosely affiliated 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.000 and mostly operating on a mercenaries of a paid basis 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.760 rather than being kind of ideologically driven or whatever, but 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.560 are affiliated under the name the SNA, the Syrian National Army, 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.240 which is even more confusing because they're not and were 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:29.480 never the National Army of Syria what they are, and 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.839 yet these paid militias, which yeah, we can describe if 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.920 he might describe as hard as gangs, mercenaries, et cetera, 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:39.520 et cetera. And it kind of depends that it's like 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.000 a mix of different forces. What's very important there is 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.679 the very close relationship that they have with the Turkey 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.720 state that essentially the Turkish government has made the choice 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.160 that it wants to continue its. 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.120 Aggression and its expansionism on not. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:57.480 Any Syria and the other than immediately sending their own army, 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.240 they instead pay and fund and direct and support these 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.960 militias who are also operating for their own benefit. Yes, 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.360 but the relationship between them their actions right now in 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:08.160 the Turkish. 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:08.960 State is much more direct. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.520 So at the same time as you have this this 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:13.840 sweep to the south that caused the agni change at 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.880 Sivia heading to the east, so originally the reason Zeppa 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:20.320 followed by city at Mintage in the region around there, 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.000 you have this onslaught from the essay and that is 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.840 what the SDF you originally mentioned are currently up against. 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.040 And that's the situation that we're in, and it's it's 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.319 still ongoing. It's very much not stopped. It's still much 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.120 very much like hot engagement and hot fighting that is happening. 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:39.160 Yeah, And it's like sometimes to introduce another econom we 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.760 use like TFSA to refer to some of those groups 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.160 like the Turkish Free Syrian Army and that they're essentially 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:46.200 an operation by the Turkey state to co operate what 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.600 was initially a democratic grassroots revolution more than a decade ago. 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.360 And like if you haven't been following I suppose it 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.000 would be easy to be confused by this, but the 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.840 SNA have not been backwards in documenting their war crimes 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:05.880 in the advance towards I guess, their advanced westwards towards 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:09.360 the Euphrates and even over the Euphrates, and there have 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.360 been some really horrible things, some of them, like I've 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.560 shared online if people want to. They're not hard to 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:15.920 find if you want to find them, but are not 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:17.320 going to put them right in front of you because 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.840 they're horrible. And as the SNA have advanced, they've reached 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.800 a couple of locations that are very crucial, right, and 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.319 that's where they've been kind of stopped by the SDF, 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.199 because the SDF haven't been in like such a large 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.439 sale conflict for the last couple of years. They've been 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.840 fighting against like Islamic State splinter cells, and to a 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.559 degree the SNA that, like the SDF, has modernized a 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.559 lot more than the SNA have I guess in the 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.280 past years, right, they've embraced the use of first person 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:52.680 few drones. They've even shut down several Turkish Biractar drones, 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.360 which they previously If they have the ability to do 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.480 it then then they weren't able to use that ability 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.480 until very recently. So like they in a sense, their 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.840 resistance has been very impressive, right because we have on 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.360 the one hand, it's the second largest army in NATO 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:11.680 giving its like full support to the SNA and on 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.880 the other hand we have the FDF, which is interior 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.160 US partner Force. Right there are US bases still in Syria, 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.880 there are US troops still in Syria. Well yeah, for now, 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.080 But like I mean, I remember when I was in 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:30.040 Java in October twenty twenty three, the US shot down 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.480 a Birector drone over a US base, and then it 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.280 did not shoot down the dozens of other Birector drones 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.240 that were bombing the cities the city that you're in 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.520 right now, city that I was in, other cities. You know, 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.959 I met a mother who had lost her fourteen year 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.360 old son to one of these drone bombings, really like 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:52.160 horrific and just cruel bombing of one of very clearly 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:56.920 civilian targets. So like, the US is there, but they're 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.680 not doing anything to help. Supposedly their friends, supposed their partners, 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:05.040 and like every interview I conducted began with like five 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.360 minutes of me being asked why the Americans weren't being 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.079 friends when the SDF had been friends to them in 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.959 the battle against ISIS, And like, that's not something you 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.280 have a good explanation for other than like, I think 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.800 most Courtish people can understand the difference between people and 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.800 government and people and state, and like, I might have 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.360 a belief, but it's not the same as the government 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.600 of the US. So can you explain the role of 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:30.000 the US here because people will be very confused, right, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.240 And I think it's easy to sort of simplify this 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.520 as like America is in Syria for oil, but there's 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.480 a little bit more to it than that, right. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.200 Yeah, absolutely, And again it's it's such a. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.560 Big question, and it's a question of how far back 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.960 do you go? How far do you zoom out? 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.480 In both as you keep moving back from today, the 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.440 plot kind of thickens and as you you know, if 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.360 you imagine if you're looking at the Google maps Asteria 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.360 and then you you click them button, the takes you 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.480 out and out and the map gets wider and wider. 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.200 The story kind of fills itself in as well. Like 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.320 that seems to make more sense when they are put 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:13.240 in that context, and I think a good place to 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:19.320 start maybe is, Yeah, this consistent for a long time, 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.880 like American attitude to this whole region, not just Syria, 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:29.520 which is to play yet to play very carefully to 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.840 your advantage and make a lines is where it suits 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.240 you and continue to where it suits you and not 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:36.000 stick to them. 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:37.960 Where it doesn't. And that is. Yeah. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.640 One aspect of that is the resources which goes further 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.840 than just oil, is also gas and is also the 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.080 resource of the space to create a trade group, right, Like, 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.720 that's a really important question in the Middle East at 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.600 the moment, and it's one of the reasons that Kurdistan 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.280 is such an important place politically. A lot of these 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.480 lines of potential trade roots and these kind of lines 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.600 of power and money they intercept and they cross over here. 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.120 So there are all these different like resources at play. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:11.000 And I think another thing that's important to look at 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.760 is that, Yeah, the the US as the US government 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.560 as you put it, as as distinct from the citizens 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.320 in anyway, doesn't just go into this blind and kind 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.680 of react day by day. It's not like a reactive 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.400 force in the world. The US government is and would 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.360 you know, proudly announced I think as well with the 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.760 creey thing on this one point, that they are, no 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.240 matter who the administration is and where it's politically leaning 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.480 at the time, a very proactive force. They have a 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.080 plan where that they go and they try and put 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:42.880 it into practice. And famously, historically and very intensely, a 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:44.680 lot of that has played out in the Middle East 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.960 because of the Middle East position in the world resources 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.160 and the role that it's played in kind of who 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.000 gets to be the big dog in the world over 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.120 the years and throughout history, it's become for those various 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:10.639 reasons like very important and so yeah, again without it's 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.120 many podcasts of its own, and I'm sure you are 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.879 making them, so I won't try and like summarize it, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.639 but I think you can't talk about America's role in 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:19.720 Syria in the Middle East in. 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.760 General without mentioning like Israel and the role Israeli state. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:29.480 Place for for and with America and things like, you know, 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.240 we're all sort of following and for you guys following 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.200 more closely. People were all following the current Americans administration 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.600 and leadership and what's been coming out of there, and 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.480 sometimes you think, like God, is it just not when 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.639 you look at something like you know, the video for 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.600 like the new Gaza that we're going to make for example, Yeah, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.720 and Trump Trump's Gaza. 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:49.800 Whatever that was. 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.760 Yeah, yeah, So I mean it makes it sick. And 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.480 then you're also not sure if it's it's serious or 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:01.120 if it's mad. But I think unfortunately it's actually Yeah, 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.520 it's quite an intelligent play. And what it speaks to 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.240 that is relevant to what I'm saying here is this 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:09.919 kind of long term plat right that to annihilate a 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:11.960 region into the best of your ability so that you 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.879 can move in and develop. It is a tried and 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.679 tested method of many many governments, and so America is 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.000 not the only one. But at the moment we're at 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.880 kind of crucial moment in the Middle East when one 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.000 sort of wall of forces are trying to greatly reduce 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.040 the role and power of some others so that they 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:32.760 can put. 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.480 Their plan into place and so that they can yeah 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:36.960 they can, so they can make money. 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.440 You know, we always were following money and where development 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.920 can be made and where trade routes can be made. 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:47.040 And so what happened the tiny of the regime change 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.760 that we've just discussed, the timing of HTS being able 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:51.960 to move into the Masters and take it over. It's 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.080 no coincidence that it came after like a shift in 0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:00.240 the Israeli like genocidal war on Gaza, and after what 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.320 the then military action they were taking against Tesbola and Lebanon, 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.200 which they felt then had up to a point achieved 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.199 what they wanted to achieve, and then things kind of 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.440 moved to Syria, right, So I'm not saying that the 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.120 new government has kind of come from has been sponsored 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:16.520 by that at all. I think there's a huge amount 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.720 of tension there, but the withdrawal of like the weakening 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.920 and or withdrawal of forces to Iran and Hezbela here 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.639 played a huge role with then being able to establish 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.280 themselves as a government. So that is also something that 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.960 you know that's not directly necessarily every step sort of 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.679 kind of puppeteered by the US at all, but it 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.080 is a part of the politics that the US has 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.520 had a long historical influence on and that it backs 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:43.840 and that it's in conversation is in the whole of 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.040 the Middle East. It's this kind of greater Middle East plan. 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.919 It's vision for it, if you if you will, and 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.600 The other aspect that I think is important to talk 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.040 about is the US's relationship with North and East Sria, 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:58.880 specifically you mentioned they're like, you know, there's like supposed 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.320 friendship with We can say that like friendship with the 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.040 Kurds as people will refer to it, or the alliance 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.240 and coalition between the SDF and the US, which was 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.440 sort of most most famous and most well known during 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:17.040 the fight against ISIS when the international coalition it's always 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:22.719 the spearheaded by America was bombing and providing air support 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.040 for the SDF as the as they pulled it, the 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.840 boots on the ground, the actual brand force that could 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.480 go and take territory back from ISIS, which yes, did 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:33.840 look like a kind of did look like a friendship. 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.520 But I think from both. 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:40.800 Sides, everyone always knew that that was a practical alliance, 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.720 perhaps perhaps a strategic alliance at best, we can say, 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.240