1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Cause Media. Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 2: It's James today and I'm joined by Jenny Keston, who's 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: a writer, activist and someone who's been in and out 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 2: of Northeast Syria for a long time working with the 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: women's movement, and today we're going to be talking about 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: the situation in North and East Syria since the fall 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: of the Asad regime, some of the conflict that has 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: been happening in the resistance of the SDF. 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Jenny either. Yeah, first of all, 10 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: it's not sure having him really happy to be here. Yeah, 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: you're welcome, of course. 12 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 2: So I think if we start off, people have been 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: messaging me a lot of various platforms about the letter 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: that abdulah or Jerland wrote, and I don't want to 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: dress that in its entirety today because we've got something 16 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 2: coming up on that we're going to talk to some 17 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: people from the Freedom for Abdullah campaign, but I do 18 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: want to use it as a jumping off point because 19 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: I think it a has reminded people, as we spoke 20 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: about before the show, that not the Syria exists and 21 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: the SDF exists, which has been largely missing, and like 22 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: the legacy media reporting on Syria, but be like, there's 23 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 2: been atrocious reporting on what it means for the SDF, 24 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: even though there's a very clear answer to that. So 25 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: for people who have you been reading papers which either 26 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: just ignore the existence of the FDF entirely or speculate 27 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: as to what they're going to do when they've given 28 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: a very clear answer, could. 29 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: You explain to people like where this leaves the SDF. 30 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, no, So thanks for that, And yeah, I've 31 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: also been gay a lot of questions about chans later 32 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 3: and I'm really glad to hear that you guys are 33 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: going to do a program on it, because Western media 34 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 3: wants to divorce it in this way. It's very snazzy 35 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: and there's like bolts with the blue and something crazy 36 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 3: has happening. Really, it's unfortunately it has to actually be 37 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: talking about in a kind of more long term and 38 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,279 Speaker 3: intelligent way that sets the context and like, yeah, puts 39 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 3: that and makes things a bit more clear because it 40 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: is something with the background and it's connected to a 41 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 3: lot of things, and of course that whole political process 42 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 3: that Johan's recent statement is a part of, it's going 43 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 3: to affect the situation here in northern East Siria, because 44 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: the situation here a lot of the time depends on 45 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 3: the actions of the Turkish state and on expansionism an 46 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 3: aggression from there, and so as the political situation shouldn't changes, 47 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 3: it will affect that. What it is not is like 48 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 3: a call or a statement that means that the SDF 49 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: has to lay down their arms and start this thing. 50 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 3: This is for several reasons, absolutely not what it is. 51 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: The main one of those being that the SDF is not, 52 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: and never has been, the PAA, and that's something that 53 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 3: they've tried many times over the years to made very clear, 54 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 3: but unfortunately hasn't always been like heard and acknowledged. 55 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: And so whatever this statement means. 56 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 3: That you guys will go into that in your program, 57 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: whatever it is for the PKKA. But the situation not 58 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 3: fair to stand. It's a different situation here, and so 59 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 3: the SDF is in a moment of like question and 60 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 3: a big change. But it's much more to do with 61 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: what's been happening in Syria politically and to do with 62 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: the government and the interim government had said, yeah, government 63 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 3: that installed themselves here and the regime things, and of 64 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: course the ongoing war and situation of invasions that they're facing. 65 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of big questions for the SCF. 66 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 3: But I think it's important right now that we don't 67 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 3: kind of confuse and misunderstand with the sort of parallel 68 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: process that's going on. 69 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And I think if people are hearing this 70 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 2: and you're new to the show, this is your first 71 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: time hearing the sea of acronyms. 72 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: That is the Kurdish Freedom movement. 73 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: I coadereict you to The Women's War, which is a 74 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: series that Robert made. I have a book, but you 75 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: can't read it yet, still editing it. Or you could 76 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: listen to one of our numerous if you search for 77 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: a Java or Northern East Syria or Syria in our feed, 78 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: I'm sure you'll find a lot to explain those acronyms 79 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: to you. But yeah, we've had this situation right where 80 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: since December, the situation in Syria has drastically change and 81 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: we now have two state actors. 82 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: Well, we have lots of stay active. 83 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: We always had lots of state actors intervening in Syria, 84 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: but we have this new state actor in the Syrian 85 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: state right And I think people if they're you know, 86 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 2: if they're like reading the New York Times or god forbid, 87 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: seeing Charles Lister, then that they'll have a certain vision 88 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: of this that sort of exempts the SDF. 89 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: It sort of just ignores this. 90 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: Whole area of Syria and says like, oh, well, the 91 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: Syrian Revolution has succeeded. I think we should address, like 92 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: what has happened to the SDF to northern East Syria 93 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: since the collapse of the ASAD regime in December. 94 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so obviously what's happened to Aysyia in. 95 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 3: Northern Assyria and t SDF is very connected to the 96 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 3: whole overall stereo process, And you're right when you hear 97 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 3: the reporting on it, I think lots of parts of 98 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: it can get erased in kind of depending who's talking 99 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 3: and what their angle is or whatever. 100 00:04:58,360 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: There are a lot of things left out not just 101 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: occurred in North. 102 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: Of East Syria, but other minority ethnic groups or like 103 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 3: women organizing across Syria, like all of these things. It's 104 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 3: a very complex situation which I won't pretend I can 105 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: completely lay out and summarize for everyone in five minutes. 106 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 3: But yeah, what you did have was the culmination the 107 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 3: end of a period and a massive change when as 108 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: you say, there was a regime change, there was a 109 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 3: change of government, and that happened with this like offensive 110 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 3: sweeping down from Idland to Damascus, succeeding in taking over 111 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 3: the government in Damascus from the Asad family, which was 112 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 3: the end of a sixty one year rain, which caused 113 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: absolute jubilation. It's safe to say all across Syria, and 114 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 3: that includes where I am, and none from Syria because anyway, 115 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 3: just yeah, people were very happy in celebrating. But also 116 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: there were cities here. When you look at the map 117 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 3: and you see this like semi autonomous region, what you 118 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: had to understand was that there were actually within the cities, 119 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: there were neighborhoods and sections that were still under the 120 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: Asad government. It wasn't as simple as like the whole 121 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: city is in the autonomous administration. 122 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: So here as well, even there were still. 123 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 3: Statutes of a Sad and people took the streets and 124 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: tore them down, and really close to actually where I'm 125 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 3: recording this today, there's a roundabout where they took down 126 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 3: the statue of a Sad and it's been replaced by 127 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 3: pictures of the martyrs of people who have fallen fighting 128 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 3: for the autonomy of the region here and fighting for 129 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: their political system. 130 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: So you know, it's very very beautiful. 131 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 3: People celebrated and more happy with a qualifier, with a 132 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: very big qualifier, you know. So that jails opened as 133 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: well and the flags went up, and yeah, it was 134 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: a real moment of jubilation, celebration. But unfortunately the force 135 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 3: which eventually succeeded in toppling a SAD and installing itself 136 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 3: as the now as they're saying, the interim or transitional 137 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: government of Syria, you know, we can say it was 138 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: not one of the many like progressive democratic alternative forces 139 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 3: the originally in the uprisings the SA government, yeah, back 140 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: in twenty and eleven. Since then, things have changed. And 141 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 3: isn't a podcast directly about that. I'm sure you guys 142 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 3: speak about it as well at other times. But instead 143 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 3: what you have is hts who are kind of conglomerate 144 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 3: militia of these different militia groups. There's another acronym for 145 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: you there names I. 146 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: Think, yeah, three languages acronyms. Pointing people to resources is. 147 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 3: Always very useful, and they are kind of mixed up 148 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: amalgamation of different militias who are operating in Syria, and 149 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: what's crucial to say about them is. 150 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: That they're you know, their political background and perspective. A 151 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: lot of people in these organizations. 152 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: Are like really really similar unfortunately and all too familiar 153 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: to the people here who fought against ISIS, the Islamic State, 154 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: because they're coming from similar backgrounds, and also to al 155 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,239 Speaker 3: Qaeda and the organizations who were kind of the Syrian 156 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 3: branches of al Qaeda. 157 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: But like, yeah, I've played a really direct role. 158 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: In finding and they want to now sort of put 159 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 3: on a new face, put on a suit, go out 160 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: and shake the world's hand and become world statesmen from 161 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: the government, which unfortunately it looks like all of our 162 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: governments are all too willing to very quickly accept. 163 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: And we'll get in a minute. 164 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 3: We can talk a bit specifically about the roles and 165 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 3: almost your listeners are in the States, so that the 166 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 3: American government has been playing here. But yes, so there's 167 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 3: a big qualifier on how much people are celebrating because 168 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: of the very dodgy history and the real like threat 169 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: the xcs's politics holds unfortunately, particularly for ethnic and minorities, 170 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 3: on women, and they're establishing their power and it's by 171 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 3: no means a kind of non violent or peaceful process, 172 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: and there's a lot of tensions flaring up with a 173 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: lot of problems. However, yes, it is the case that 174 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 3: in a lot of Syria, the majority of Syria outright, 175 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 3: like warfare on the ground as for an asstop because 176 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: there's one group have taken power and so we're in 177 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 3: a different moment, We're in a different process. So what's 178 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 3: different up here, what's different up in the north and east, 179 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 3: and what's not being discussed as much. And the point 180 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 3: that I'm often trying to make, what I'm trying to 181 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 3: write articles and doing interviews at the moment, is that like, 182 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: actually the war in the whole of Syria has not 183 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: completely stopped. Yea, mostly yes, you can say in most regions, 184 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: but significantly here in northern Eastyria. It's not just that 185 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: there is still classes or flare ups between different groups 186 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 3: like there might be in other regions. There is like 187 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: a full scale invasion, a ground invasion with air. 188 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: Support that has also been going on. Yeah, and that 189 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: was tied. Where has that come from? Like what is that? 190 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: Ones that look like this is another group another history 191 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: letter Drinn for you. 192 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 3: But the important thing to understand is that this offensive 193 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 3: was tying to coincide with the HCS takeover it. FCS 194 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 3: also has a lot of links with the Perkish state, 195 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 3: and I wouldn't I personally would bot goose with bars 196 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 3: to say that that government is a Turkish public government 197 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 3: or that the relationship is that direct, But there is 198 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: a relationship, and what you saw when they kind of 199 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: successfully went on the offensive was at the same time, 200 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: other armed groups which operate are kind of loosely affiliated 201 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: and mostly operating on a mercenaries of a paid basis 202 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 3: rather than being kind of ideologically driven or whatever, but 203 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 3: are affiliated under the name the SNA, the Syrian National Army, 204 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 3: which is even more confusing because they're not and were 205 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 3: never the National Army of Syria what they are, and 206 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 3: yet these paid militias, which yeah, we can describe if 207 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: he might describe as hard as gangs, mercenaries, et cetera, 208 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: et cetera. And it kind of depends that it's like 209 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: a mix of different forces. What's very important there is 210 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 3: the very close relationship that they have with the Turkey 211 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 3: state that essentially the Turkish government has made the choice 212 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: that it wants to continue its. 213 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: Aggression and its expansionism on not. 214 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 3: Any Syria and the other than immediately sending their own army, 215 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 3: they instead pay and fund and direct and support these 216 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 3: militias who are also operating for their own benefit. Yes, 217 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: but the relationship between them their actions right now in 218 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 3: the Turkish. 219 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: State is much more direct. 220 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 3: So at the same time as you have this this 221 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: sweep to the south that caused the agni change at 222 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 3: Sivia heading to the east, so originally the reason Zeppa 223 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 3: followed by city at Mintage in the region around there, 224 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: you have this onslaught from the essay and that is 225 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 3: what the SDF you originally mentioned are currently up against. 226 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: And that's the situation that we're in, and it's it's 227 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 3: still ongoing. It's very much not stopped. It's still much 228 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: very much like hot engagement and hot fighting that is happening. 229 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like sometimes to introduce another econom we 230 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: use like TFSA to refer to some of those groups 231 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: like the Turkish Free Syrian Army and that they're essentially 232 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: an operation by the Turkey state to co operate what 233 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: was initially a democratic grassroots revolution more than a decade ago. 234 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: And like if you haven't been following I suppose it 235 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: would be easy to be confused by this, but the 236 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: SNA have not been backwards in documenting their war crimes 237 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: in the advance towards I guess, their advanced westwards towards 238 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: the Euphrates and even over the Euphrates, and there have 239 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: been some really horrible things, some of them, like I've 240 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 2: shared online if people want to. They're not hard to 241 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: find if you want to find them, but are not 242 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: going to put them right in front of you because 243 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: they're horrible. And as the SNA have advanced, they've reached 244 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: a couple of locations that are very crucial, right, and 245 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: that's where they've been kind of stopped by the SDF, 246 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 2: because the SDF haven't been in like such a large 247 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 2: sale conflict for the last couple of years. They've been 248 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: fighting against like Islamic State splinter cells, and to a 249 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 2: degree the SNA that, like the SDF, has modernized a 250 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 2: lot more than the SNA have I guess in the 251 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: past years, right, they've embraced the use of first person 252 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: few drones. They've even shut down several Turkish Biractar drones, 253 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: which they previously If they have the ability to do 254 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: it then then they weren't able to use that ability 255 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: until very recently. So like they in a sense, their 256 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: resistance has been very impressive, right because we have on 257 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: the one hand, it's the second largest army in NATO 258 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 2: giving its like full support to the SNA and on 259 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: the other hand we have the FDF, which is interior 260 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: US partner Force. Right there are US bases still in Syria, 261 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: there are US troops still in Syria. Well yeah, for now, 262 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: But like I mean, I remember when I was in 263 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: Java in October twenty twenty three, the US shot down 264 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: a Birector drone over a US base, and then it 265 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: did not shoot down the dozens of other Birector drones 266 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: that were bombing the cities the city that you're in 267 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: right now, city that I was in, other cities. You know, 268 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 2: I met a mother who had lost her fourteen year 269 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: old son to one of these drone bombings, really like 270 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: horrific and just cruel bombing of one of very clearly 271 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: civilian targets. So like, the US is there, but they're 272 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: not doing anything to help. Supposedly their friends, supposed their partners, 273 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: and like every interview I conducted began with like five 274 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: minutes of me being asked why the Americans weren't being 275 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 2: friends when the SDF had been friends to them in 276 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 2: the battle against ISIS, And like, that's not something you 277 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: have a good explanation for other than like, I think 278 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: most Courtish people can understand the difference between people and 279 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: government and people and state, and like, I might have 280 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: a belief, but it's not the same as the government 281 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: of the US. So can you explain the role of 282 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: the US here because people will be very confused, right, 283 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: And I think it's easy to sort of simplify this 284 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: as like America is in Syria for oil, but there's 285 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: a little bit more to it than that, right. 286 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And again it's it's such a. 287 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: Big question, and it's a question of how far back 288 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: do you go? How far do you zoom out? 289 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: In both as you keep moving back from today, the 290 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 3: plot kind of thickens and as you you know, if 291 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: you imagine if you're looking at the Google maps Asteria 292 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: and then you you click them button, the takes you 293 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: out and out and the map gets wider and wider. 294 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: The story kind of fills itself in as well. Like 295 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: that seems to make more sense when they are put 296 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 3: in that context, and I think a good place to 297 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 3: start maybe is, Yeah, this consistent for a long time, 298 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: like American attitude to this whole region, not just Syria, 299 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: which is to play yet to play very carefully to 300 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 3: your advantage and make a lines is where it suits 301 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 3: you and continue to where it suits you and not 302 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 3: stick to them. 303 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: Where it doesn't. And that is. Yeah. 304 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 3: One aspect of that is the resources which goes further 305 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 3: than just oil, is also gas and is also the 306 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: resource of the space to create a trade group, right, Like, 307 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: that's a really important question in the Middle East at 308 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 3: the moment, and it's one of the reasons that Kurdistan 309 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 3: is such an important place politically. A lot of these 310 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 3: lines of potential trade roots and these kind of lines 311 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: of power and money they intercept and they cross over here. 312 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: So there are all these different like resources at play. 313 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 3: And I think another thing that's important to look at 314 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: is that, Yeah, the the US as the US government 315 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: as you put it, as as distinct from the citizens 316 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: in anyway, doesn't just go into this blind and kind 317 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: of react day by day. It's not like a reactive 318 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: force in the world. The US government is and would 319 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: you know, proudly announced I think as well with the 320 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 3: creey thing on this one point, that they are, no 321 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 3: matter who the administration is and where it's politically leaning 322 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 3: at the time, a very proactive force. They have a 323 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: plan where that they go and they try and put 324 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 3: it into practice. And famously, historically and very intensely, a 325 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 3: lot of that has played out in the Middle East 326 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: because of the Middle East position in the world resources 327 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: and the role that it's played in kind of who 328 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 3: gets to be the big dog in the world over 329 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 3: the years and throughout history, it's become for those various 330 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 3: reasons like very important and so yeah, again without it's 331 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 3: many podcasts of its own, and I'm sure you are 332 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 3: making them, so I won't try and like summarize it, 333 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 3: but I think you can't talk about America's role in 334 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: Syria in the Middle East in. 335 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: General without mentioning like Israel and the role Israeli state. 336 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 3: Place for for and with America and things like, you know, 337 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 3: we're all sort of following and for you guys following 338 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 3: more closely. People were all following the current Americans administration 339 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 3: and leadership and what's been coming out of there, and 340 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 3: sometimes you think, like God, is it just not when 341 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: you look at something like you know, the video for 342 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: like the new Gaza that we're going to make for example, Yeah, 343 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 3: and Trump Trump's Gaza. 344 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: Whatever that was. 345 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So I mean it makes it sick. And 346 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 3: then you're also not sure if it's it's serious or 347 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 3: if it's mad. But I think unfortunately it's actually Yeah, 348 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: it's quite an intelligent play. And what it speaks to 349 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: that is relevant to what I'm saying here is this 350 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 3: kind of long term plat right that to annihilate a 351 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: region into the best of your ability so that you 352 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 3: can move in and develop. It is a tried and 353 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 3: tested method of many many governments, and so America is 354 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: not the only one. But at the moment we're at 355 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 3: kind of crucial moment in the Middle East when one 356 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: sort of wall of forces are trying to greatly reduce 357 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: the role and power of some others so that they 358 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 3: can put. 359 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: Their plan into place and so that they can yeah 360 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: they can, so they can make money. 361 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 3: You know, we always were following money and where development 362 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 3: can be made and where trade routes can be made. 363 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: And so what happened the tiny of the regime change 364 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: that we've just discussed, the timing of HTS being able 365 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: to move into the Masters and take it over. It's 366 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 3: no coincidence that it came after like a shift in 367 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 3: the Israeli like genocidal war on Gaza, and after what 368 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 3: the then military action they were taking against Tesbola and Lebanon, 369 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 3: which they felt then had up to a point achieved 370 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 3: what they wanted to achieve, and then things kind of 371 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 3: moved to Syria, right, So I'm not saying that the 372 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 3: new government has kind of come from has been sponsored 373 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: by that at all. I think there's a huge amount 374 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 3: of tension there, but the withdrawal of like the weakening 375 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 3: and or withdrawal of forces to Iran and Hezbela here 376 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 3: played a huge role with then being able to establish 377 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: themselves as a government. So that is also something that 378 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 3: you know that's not directly necessarily every step sort of 379 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 3: kind of puppeteered by the US at all, but it 380 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: is a part of the politics that the US has 381 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 3: had a long historical influence on and that it backs 382 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: and that it's in conversation is in the whole of 383 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 3: the Middle East. It's this kind of greater Middle East plan. 384 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 3: It's vision for it, if you if you will, and 385 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: The other aspect that I think is important to talk 386 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 3: about is the US's relationship with North and East Sria, 387 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 3: specifically you mentioned they're like, you know, there's like supposed 388 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: friendship with We can say that like friendship with the 389 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: Kurds as people will refer to it, or the alliance 390 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 3: and coalition between the SDF and the US, which was 391 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 3: sort of most most famous and most well known during 392 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 3: the fight against ISIS when the international coalition it's always 393 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 3: the spearheaded by America was bombing and providing air support 394 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: for the SDF as the as they pulled it, the 395 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 3: boots on the ground, the actual brand force that could 396 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 3: go and take territory back from ISIS, which yes, did 397 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: look like a kind of did look like a friendship. 398 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: But I think from both. 399 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 3: Sides, everyone always knew that that was a practical alliance, 400 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 3: perhaps perhaps a strategic alliance at best, we can say, 401 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: but I think that the US has not got a 402 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: history of operating on a basis as like friendship or 403 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 3: of that kind of commitment to the forces it works with, 404 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: and a lot of history and modern recent history can 405 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 3: attest to that. And from the side of people here, 406 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 3: I think it's really important to say that, yeah, people 407 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 3: were angry and that you know what you heard. 408 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: You were talking about interviewing people and then kind of 409 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: being like, well, what are they doing? 410 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 3: Like we we fought all with them, partly on their 411 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: behalf like and then they deserve. 412 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: Yes, people are angry, but the more kind of. 413 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 3: Politically engaged someone is sort of moving up that scale. 414 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 3: I think the less faith they ever had in the US. Yeah. So, 415 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 3: and now you've got the US kind of muttering about 416 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 3: withdrawing their troops from Syria. Right and as Daja who 417 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 3: because they said this before, I was actually here when 418 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 3: they said this reportant back in twenty nineteen. I also 419 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: happened to be in northern East Syria, and it was 420 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 3: if I'm not wrong, it was Trump again. If I 421 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 3: turned out and they said we were drawing our forces 422 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 3: from Syria, did they actually withdraw Not exactly. 423 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: No. 424 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 3: You still saw them driving around in big cars, mostly 425 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 3: right next to the oil fields. 426 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: It was a bit it was almost tomical, sort of 427 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: like when. 428 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 3: Part and parts next to the oil fields. But that 429 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 3: withdrawal was symbolic. That withdrawal was they withdrew from bases 430 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 3: right on the border with Turkey, which lies just to 431 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 3: the north of Syria and as such just nets to 432 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: north of eas Syria for anyone without the the map 433 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: immediately in their head. And they announced it very very 434 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 3: clearly and very publicly, and so it was a kind 435 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 3: of it was a green flag to say to Turkey. 436 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, on you come, Yeah, we're not going to stop you. 437 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: We're not gonna because what you don't want to do 438 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: is hit an American by accident, as you gave the examples. 439 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: They you know, they brought down a drum, but it 440 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 3: was over an American base, not because it was bombing 441 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 3: civilians nearby, which dozens of other were, and so that 442 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: you had that kind of symbolic withdrawal which led to 443 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen, it's one of the times that Turkey 444 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 3: has like annexed section essentially annexed a section of Syria 445 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 3: North and East Syria under the remit of the Autonomous Administration, 446 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 3: but nonetheless still technically Syrian territory. And in that time 447 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: it was Surah, Khania and. 448 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: Gerrispi, which people may have heard of. 449 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: And so that, yeah, that was the like green flag 450 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 3: to Turkey to take that step and at that time, yeah, 451 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: maybe share it's a lot of a lot of political stuff, 452 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 3: a lot of acrogyms, a lot of all this, and maybe. 453 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: I'll just share a be anecdote. 454 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, at that time and when they made the announcement 455 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 3: they were going to leave, people organized a march to 456 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 3: an American base and I was here at the time 457 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 3: and I joined it with some of the women's organizations. 458 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: It was the most amazing day. Like I sort of 459 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: went home and wrote this massive. 460 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 3: Journal aniti because I've already been here for a very 461 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 3: long time, but my mind was still a bit blown 462 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 3: by it. For one thing, it was such an example 463 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: of how the social movement here works and what society 464 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 3: is like and all the complexities, because yeah, a lot 465 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 3: of people here are very wedded to the liberatory, progressive, grassroots, democratic, 466 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: women's readom ecological movement that I'm sure you've spoken about 467 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 3: in your programs on Rasjava, and thousands and thousands of 468 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: people completely take ownership of that and see themselves in 469 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 3: that and are the driving fossil that. Obviously, that doesn't 470 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 3: mean every single person here one sold on covement at all. 471 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, some of them are trying to get on with life. 472 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: Some of them just trying to get on with life. 473 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 3: Some of them are you know, I mean, if you 474 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 3: talk about women's freedom, there's always going to be. 475 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: Really few men or a bit like what does this 476 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: mean for me? What do I have to give up? 477 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: So it would be sick, it would be silly and 478 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: new topics to say that everyone's top we sold. 479 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 3: However, nobody wants to get invented by one of the 480 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 3: largest armies in NATO. Yeah, so you had this sort 481 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: of actually even broader than usual kind of coming together, 482 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 3: like groups from the sort of like tribal clan structures 483 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 3: here that are still like in really political force and 484 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 3: that don't you know, have a kind of uneasy truth 485 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 3: and sort of slowly learning each other relationship with the movement, 486 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 3: you can say, but they really came out in force 487 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: as well as well as like the Courdish movement as 488 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 3: well as like lots of different ethnic groups. And we marched, 489 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 3: And to be honest, I didn't know we were going 490 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 3: through an American based A lot of people didn't. It 491 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 3: was quite confusing dates because I think it want to 492 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 3: announce things too widely until they got there. Yeah, and 493 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 3: we went and did this kind of the Yeah, they 494 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,239 Speaker 3: like read out a letter symbolically, I think in some 495 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 3: of the Arabic community leaders went up to the base 496 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 3: and we the majority of people. There's got hundreds of 497 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: hundred of people in this crowd, and they stayed back 498 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 3: at a distance. And I found out later that that 499 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 3: is because the American soldiers said, if two bigger groups 500 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 3: of people come close, we will like we will open fire. 501 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 3: Like that that information was given. Yeah, I don't know 502 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 3: what they were scared of. You know, it's like like 503 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 3: any mart here. The people in the front row are 504 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: always rant, yeah, yeah, old ladies. Yeahs no different on 505 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: that day. I mean, they're a bit scary, to be said. 506 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 3: I don't think that it's a bit embarrassing if the 507 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 3: American solders would together, but that stuff of it's just 508 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 3: but while we were there by like your chance, the 509 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 3: fleet of not tacks but big armored cars rolled in 510 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 3: and there was just this moment I really. 511 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: Clearly remember, and just kind of pause and they. 512 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 3: Rolled through the crowd, and the crowd parted and turned 513 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 3: and looked, and nobody teared or clapped. 514 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: Obviously there was no. 515 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 3: Sense of oh it's the Americans, right, yeah, but nobody 516 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 3: sort of through, you know, for anything else. Through insults 517 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 3: or chanted anything negative either. There was just this stillness 518 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 3: and this really palpable energy of this kind of sense 519 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 3: of people looking at you know, obviously they're just these 520 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 3: soldiers that happened to be driving these trucks, but they 521 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 3: really symbolized something more than that, and people were kind 522 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 3: of looking sort of insisting that you looked them in 523 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 3: the eye, saying like, hey, if anyone owes anyone, you 524 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: owe us after everything we. 525 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: Fought for and everything we've done. 526 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, thirteen thousand marches they were called exactly, exactly. 527 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so many people lost in the fight against IIST 528 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: and so much like blood and sweat and tears given, 529 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 3: and there was just, yeah, this palpable sense of like, 530 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 3: at least have the decency to kind of look at us. 531 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: And admit what you're doing, because you know what you're doing. 532 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it really, yeah, it really felt it was. 533 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 3: It's very kind of moving at the time, and that 534 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 3: I feel like it's very symbolic into politics here of 535 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 3: how you know, someone asking the other day what was 536 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 3: it like for people to rely on America knowing that 537 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 3: they betrayed them, and I said, well, they didn't, They 538 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 3: never relied on them. You know, I was relying on 539 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: but you know, there's that kind of the expectation of 540 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 3: at least some sense of dignity. That is a very 541 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 3: important concept for people here in dignity and yeah, so yeah, 542 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 3: that that is I always remember that that would yeah 543 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 3: say again, I know it's confusing. That was five five 544 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 3: and a half years ago now and now you've got 545 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 3: this sort of is history repeating itself. They're talking about 546 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 3: the troops, but I think it's important to understand what 547 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: that means. What that means is they're talking about potentially 548 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 3: giving a greed of blag for more military aggression, and 549 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 3: I think they kind of haven't decided yet it's really 550 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 3: going to do it. And there's a lot of things 551 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 3: in the balance and in terms of I'll just say 552 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 3: one more, one more thing. 553 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: And it gets a bit longer. 554 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 3: In terms of like the plan for Syria and America's role, 555 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 3: like this is my opinion. I can't say for sure 556 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 3: that this is the definite reality, but my understanding in 557 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 3: the situation is that once again people here in this 558 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 3: movement are kind of caught between a rock and a 559 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 3: hard place, And the rock and the hard place now 560 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 3: looks like you've got the new government that set itself 561 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 3: up in Damascus. Yes, and their goal is they can 562 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 3: wangle it and get the outside of international support, is 563 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 3: to build your sort of socially at least, if not politically. 564 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: The model is going to look a bit like Afghanistan 565 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: and the Colabat right. 566 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 3: Like from the signs of changes they've made to the constitution, 567 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 3: incidents of like violence, sectarianism and feminist side have been rising. 568 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 3: Attacks they've already made on women's rights, like very rapidly, 569 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: and things that have been put in like the president 570 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 3: and that legally has to be a Muslim, all of 571 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: this stuff. 572 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: That's sort of their plan. But on the other hand, 573 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: I think if. 574 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: You kind of let the America government lose on Syria 575 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 3: to build up its fan at the moment, I think 576 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 3: they are seeing an opportunity to use this kind of 577 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 3: formula from Iraq into Yeah, and I think they want 578 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 3: to create this sort very open to capitalist market who 579 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 3: trade kind of space in which the North and East 580 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: area with the majority, though not entirely Curtis, can sort 581 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: of play this role that the Kurdistan region of Iraq 582 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: has played. 583 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what you call it, Like a 584 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: safe conduit to capital. Like it's a very stark difference 585 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: if people haven't traveled that part of the world to 586 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 2: be in pol A Bill and then to cross into Rajava, 587 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: that you can see the impact that a decade of 588 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: that being the safe place to have your oil company 589 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: headquarters has had on the Ghatstan regional government. Yeah, I'm 590 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 2: better move on if before we finish up, I want 591 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: to talk about the current manifestation of resistance, right and 592 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 2: specifically at Tishering Dam, because that's something that A has 593 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: been reported on and B like it mirrors what you 594 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: saw in twenty nineteen, and that like it's not just 595 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: a military resistance, right, but also like a civil size 596 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: society resistance. Can you explain maybe if people have seen anything, 597 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: they've seen that horrible video of people dancing and then 598 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: SNA drone just dropping a mortar bomb right in the 599 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: middle of them. 600 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: But can you explain how we got there? 601 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, Now, yeah, great, I'm glad you asked 602 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: at that, because in some sense it's you know, there 603 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 3: is horrible stuff in there. But this is the this 604 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 3: is the beautiful bit, This is the great bit, the 605 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: bit that yeah, we should be. 606 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: Talking about at the moment. 607 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 3: So yeah, the Tishing Dam is a big tydro electric 608 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 3: facility that is on the Euflates River. If you look 609 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 3: at a map, Asia Euplets is kind of in the 610 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 3: middle of the top and that is the region roughly 611 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 3: where there's offensive that we spoke out of the Turkish 612 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 3: funded militias, which has come from the west across to 613 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 3: the east, at times closer and further away from the river, 614 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 3: and currently like a few kilometers away, that's where that 615 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: offensive has been stopped by the FDA and cannot progress 616 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: any further despite intensive air support from Turkey, and they're 617 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 3: sort of increasingly putting pressure on that, but it hasn't 618 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 3: got anywhere. 619 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: But it's close, right, you know. 620 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 3: It's not too far away, and people are following the 621 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 3: news and what's right on the other side. If you 622 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 3: get across the river, there there's the dam, and then 623 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 3: there's a bridge further to the north of Krakos out bridge. 624 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: That's similarly kind of crucial. 625 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 3: And if you get across the river, you're not far away. 626 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 3: It's all from the city of Kabani, which I'm sure 627 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 3: most of your lessons will heard of. Is this massively 628 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 3: important symbol of anti fashion resistance. It was one of 629 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: the ignition points of the revolution for the social movement 630 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 3: here and it was really important a plight against ISIS. 631 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 3: And I think it's safe to say that Turkey via 632 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 3: the SNA had its eye on Kabani again and that 633 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 3: this is in fact an attack on Kabani which has 634 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 3: been kind of held back. And so the dam is 635 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: important symbolically as this like strategic river crossing. It's this 636 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: kind of no paths that are like they will not 637 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 3: pass moment. It's also important logistically, like for the society 638 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 3: here because it's a hydro electric facility. It supplies electricity, 639 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 3: helps with the supply of water for various reasons for 640 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of people. It's now out of action 641 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 3: might go without saying, but when you're in the middle 642 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 3: of an active war zone, you can't keep running a 643 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 3: place like that. So that is directly attacking and impacting 644 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 3: the society and normal communities here, and so yeah, it's 645 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 3: no wonder that those normal communities and that society but 646 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 3: always feel very very implicated and are kind of ready 647 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 3: to to stand up and defend themselves. It's not as yeah, 648 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,959 Speaker 3: the military assault is not kept separate from the society, 649 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 3: and the society is also under attached indirectly attacks on 650 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 3: infrastructure such as that, and directly by like drone strikes 651 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: on many many civilian targets. 652 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: Unfortunately. Yeah, in recent. 653 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 3: Times that has increased, particularly in villages surrounding Banni, and 654 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 3: you seem like kids also hospitalized and. 655 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: Killed as a part of that. 656 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 3: So on the eighth of January, what began was that 657 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 3: what they called a convoy, like a big, big trek 658 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 3: of different vehicles got together and arranged and organized from 659 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 3: different towns across Anatomy Syria. 660 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: To go to kishin dam As. 661 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 3: This very like the day symbol is very clear like 662 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 3: important physical location and also very symbolic thing where war 663 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 3: has also been fought before. There's also in previous campaigns 664 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 3: against ISIS, for example, there was fighting in the regions. 665 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 3: So people feel like, you know, their sons and daughters 666 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 3: have fought for this three river crossing before. 667 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: It's still you know, it's there in the historical memory 668 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: as well. 669 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and people went and since then, which is almost 670 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 3: exactly two months as we're recording this, we're right around 671 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 3: the two months anniversary months, and there's been a constant 672 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 3: presence stare protests dam, and that's got several different kind of. 673 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: Aspects to it. 674 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 3: It is mostly to raise the voices and raise awareness 675 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 3: and make visible what's happening. And yeah, if it's hard 676 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: to understand why like hundreds of people would go from 677 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 3: their homes to somewhere that is closer to the active fighting, 678 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 3: to somewhere that's in a very unstable region, like yeah, 679 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 3: first of all, you have to understand that nowhere in 680 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 3: notedly Syria is actually sick, right like in Commas, for 681 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 3: the city where I am, there's been residential buildings bombs 682 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: dropped on them from drones like within the. 683 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: Last couple of months as well. It's not like there's 684 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: this sense of safety wherever you are. 685 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: The difference is a sense of doing something about it 686 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 3: and of standing together and coming together in these like 687 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 3: amazingly brave and amazingly creative ways that only the communities 688 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 3: have not in Assyria can manage. So yes, Unfortunately, during 689 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 3: these two months, and there have consistently been air strikes 690 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 3: on the dam, and I don't have the exact statistics, 691 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 3: and you wouldn't necessarily get an honest answer about how 692 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 3: many of them of pondirect from Turkey and how many 693 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 3: have come from SNA drones, right, but the Sena drunes 694 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 3: are paid for by the Turkis state anyway, So at 695 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 3: the end of the day, yeah, morally, how much difference 696 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 3: does it make? And they have attacked the civil protests there, 697 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 3: and up until now, I believe twenty five civilians have 698 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 3: been killed and many more than that hospitalized. But despite this, 699 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 3: and in the shadow of this, with the most beautiful 700 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 3: defiance like that, protest has continued. And what the videos 701 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 3: that maybe don't get shared as much or shared enough 702 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 3: that people might not have seen, are also these images 703 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 3: you know, which are very I can attest are very 704 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 3: real because I went there myself a few weeks ago, 705 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 3: which is everybody getting out and dancing at the slightest 706 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 3: opportunity or the slightest excuse or lack of an excuse. 707 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: And the most amazing art that's been. 708 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: Made, like paintings of the people who've been killed or 709 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 3: they would say, here fallen martyr. In these two months, yes, 710 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 3: there's been theater like the performed using the bits of 711 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 3: the bombed out cars that were bombed just a few 712 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 3: days before as props to kind of like work. Yeah, 713 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 3: tell the story of what's been happening, like the most 714 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 3: like creative things. 715 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: Also statements for the press, and all. 716 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 3: Your different organizations show ups, so like the organized youse 717 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 3: show up as the use and obviously the women's organizations 718 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 3: as women saying like, you know, this is our revolution, 719 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: this is our community, and we know what it looks 720 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 3: like when it gets occupied. We're not just going to 721 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 3: stand by and see it happen again. It's our land, 722 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 3: it's our water, and it's our kids. Is the refrain 723 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 3: that kind of gets repeated over and over again. And 724 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 3: of course they're they're in solidarity as well with the 725 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 3: with the SDF themselves, with the military force. It would 726 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 3: be it would be crazy if they weren't, because yeah, 727 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 3: they are also embedded in their communities. No, they're not 728 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 3: extracted from the society the way that most kind of 729 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: state armies are. So yeah, the situation at Tiswine is 730 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 3: still ongoing. And when I was there, it was it 731 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 3: really was the most amazing experience. There were bombings. Well, 732 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 3: I was there and tragically one of the people I 733 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 3: got to know there who was a journalist, his name 734 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 3: was Eggie Brush. 735 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: Just less than two weeks after I got back, I 736 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: found out that he's also been killed in another drone strike. 737 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 2: So it was yeah, it's. 738 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 3: Very very just kind of doesn't It doesn't stop, the 739 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 3: aggression doesn't stop, but nonetheless, people kind of coming together 740 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 3: to resist it doesn't stop either. 741 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: And once I'd been. 742 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: There, it seemed a lot less crazy, or had to 743 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 3: imagine that people would come together around it because you 744 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 3: see like the immense power that it was, and you 745 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 3: see that how everyone here has lost someone, know, like 746 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 3: the vast majority of people here have lost members of 747 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 3: their family. You said yourself, thirteen thousand fallen in the 748 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 3: fight against Isis alone, and since then, like war one 749 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 3: way or another has been going on. 750 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,959 Speaker 1: So people know what lost means. 751 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 3: Already they've already lost, but they're not going to let 752 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 3: that make them step back. They're gonna do their fallen 753 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 3: loved ones justice and continue to stand up in their name. 754 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 3: And yeah, it's a very sort of big thing, but 755 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 3: it's really powerful when you see it in person and 756 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 3: and all that kind of humanity and humor and joy 757 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 3: despite the situation. 758 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that is a very unique thing to Curtis Dane, 759 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: And like the Kurdish freedom movements, this sort of joy. 760 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 2: I mean, I've been it's very similar in Burma rightly, 761 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 2: where they also do they love to dance, oh well 762 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 2: in a war, and like it is one of the 763 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: things that I think, like the joy is hard to explain. 764 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 2: I know we're sort of rating long on time here, 765 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 2: but I just like when people hear Syria and to 766 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 2: exempt when they hear me and Maud or they'll think 767 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: of wars, but like you should also think about all 768 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 2: the people who exist outside of the conflict, or who 769 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,439 Speaker 2: don't think this outside of it that's the wrong word, 770 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 2: but who are not fighting at the front line. Like, 771 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: the experience of revolution is a very joyful one, even 772 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 2: amidst very difficult times. And it's difficult to explain it 773 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 2: if you haven't experienced it because it sounds so juxtaposed, 774 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 2: but it isn't necessarily. The guy have actually really fond 775 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 2: memories of meeting Kurdish people coming into the United States 776 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 2: in the mountains at the time when the United States 777 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: was detaining people outdoors in very difficult conditions, and like 778 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: dancing with them there at a time when it was miserable. 779 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 2: The ability to salvage joy. It gives you a sense 780 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 2: of sovereignty, I suppose, and I can understand why that's 781 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 2: such an important part of the Curdish freedom movement when 782 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 2: every expression of Curtis's identity has been suppressed for so long, 783 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 2: Like the ability to seize your moments what James Scott 784 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 2: would call like little small acts of resistance, Like it's important. 785 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 2: It's more important I think people understand. And if you're 786 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 2: understanding it from a Western military doctrine, it doesn't fit. 787 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 2: But that's because you're using the wrong framework. Yeah, exactly, Jenny. 788 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 2: If people are interested in following your work about this, 789 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 2: or perhaps they're interested in doing what they can to 790 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 2: support the revolution and what is a challenging time, a 791 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: very a very changing time, like how can they do 792 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 2: both of those things? 793 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so well, if they are interested in following the 794 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 3: sort of updates and so on that I've been doing, 795 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 3: I've got Instagram and TikTok channels, which are both at 796 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 3: j Keston. 797 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: I'm assuming you can stick that written form somewhere. Yeah, 798 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: we'll put it in the show notes. 799 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 3: And telegram channel as well if people find it easier 800 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 3: to sort of get Yeah, that's just the most condensed 801 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 3: way to kind of download information. Videos or whatever, which 802 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 3: you can find under the same name, and there's also 803 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 3: links to it on the on Instagram TikTok and on there. 804 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 3: We've got we linked tree that has some suggestions for 805 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 3: if people want to support, like ways to donate, say 806 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 3: to the Kurdish Red Present and stuff like that. And 807 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 3: then specifically, yeah, I mean there is a lot that 808 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 3: people can do and whatever it. 809 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: Is, it all starts with getting more I wouldn't say informed, 810 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,439 Speaker 1: I would say getting more. 811 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 3: Connected, right, So getting informed is a part of that, 812 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 3: but not just in the sense of information learning, Like 813 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 3: it's also connecting with like the feeling of things here 814 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 3: and why it's become so important to so many people across. 815 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: The world, not just people from here. 816 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, And the more we learn about that them all, 817 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 3: we'll start to see like how we can be a 818 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 3: friend to the movement. 819 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: Here and where how our role can fit. And I 820 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: know that there are specifically in America. 821 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 3: A couple of organizations, is it that there'll be Books 822 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 3: has been really prominent in organizing one of them. 823 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Emergency Committee for Java. 824 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 3: Emergency Committee for a Java, that's the one. Yeah, I 825 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,439 Speaker 3: mean you had emergency in there somewhere. That's definitely worth 826 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 3: looking up and following a lot of the. 827 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: Work that they do. 828 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 3: And you've also got like think tanks like the Kurdish 829 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 3: Piece Institute that a kind of lobbying, and so yeah, 830 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 3: there are some there is some stuff from coming from 831 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 3: the United States as well, But I think, yeah, the 832 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 3: more people get a chance to kind of learn about 833 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 3: stuff here and see the connection and be able to 834 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 3: see and find themselves in it, and I think that's. 835 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: Got a lot to do with what you were just 836 00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: speaking about. 837 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 3: Hearing you put so well, I wouldn't extend it much more, 838 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 3: but yeah, like people here, it's really there's always war happening, 839 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 3: and always war kind of filing on top of you, 840 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 3: but that's never what it's about. The question is always 841 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 3: what are you're fighting for and what you're fighting to defend? 842 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 3: And what would you be doing if there was no war. 843 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 3: Everyone here'll always say if there was no war, we'd 844 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 3: still have enough work to do with all the really, 845 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 3: like I was that word ambitious, like social transformation. 846 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: That people here are really committed to. 847 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's enough going on and it's very big and 848 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 3: as you put it, it's very beautiful and very joyful 849 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 3: and so that's Yeah, that's the bit that I encourage 850 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 3: people to try and learn more about, because that's the 851 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 3: bit that makes you stay and makes people like me 852 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 3: stick around for years finding out more and more and 853 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 3: making friends and getting closer and closer to the communities here. 854 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a very good way to put it. So, yeah, 855 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: I encourage people to do all that. 856 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time doing I know 857 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 2: it's late there that we really appreciate you joining us today. 858 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Cheers. 859 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 4: It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. 860 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from Zone Media, visit our website fool 861 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,399 Speaker 4: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 862 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 863 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: You listen to podcasts. 864 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 4: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here, 865 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 4: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.