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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and.

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Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

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Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing today?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am doing very well.

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Speaker 1: Good. Well. We are in Halloween mode in our house.

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Speaker 1: Are you in Halloween mode? I know we've talked about.

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Speaker 1: You sent me the funniest photo. You sent me the

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Speaker 1: funniest photo of deer eating pumpkin in your neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so you don't put your.

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Speaker 1: Pumpkins out because of that, because you don't want it

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Speaker 1: to fall victim to a deer ravaging it in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night.

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Speaker 2: That is true, You know that's you know, learning Colorado

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Speaker 2: and the differences. You know, not only do we have

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Speaker 2: these pumpkin predators, but it also it's not unusual to

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Speaker 2: have a white Halloween here, so it can start to snow,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I've never I can't think, even though

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Speaker 2: I've lived across the United States growing up, you know,

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Speaker 2: my entire adult life, I was in California, I can't

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Speaker 2: think of a time when I was out trick or

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Speaker 2: treating as a kid and it had snow on the ground.

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Speaker 2: But it happens here.

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Speaker 1: Well, that sounds wonderful. I would love that. Being from Texas,

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Speaker 1: I would love that. You know, we had to start

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Speaker 1: some new traditions when the pandemic came. The girls were

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Speaker 1: ten and of course really into trick or treating. They

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Speaker 1: still trick or treat, and we just didn't trick or

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Speaker 1: treat in October of twenty twenty. You know, we just

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Speaker 1: didn't feel like it was safe at that time, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and so we had to come

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Speaker 1: up with this new tradition. We decided we have kind

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Speaker 1: of a foresty area in our backyard. Even though we

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Speaker 1: have a fence around it, it's a pretty large woodsy

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Speaker 1: area and we have like a little we have a

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Speaker 1: fire pit back there and some chairs set up and everything.

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Speaker 1: And so I decided, rather than trick or treating, I

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Speaker 1: was going to make these bags little, you know, like

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Speaker 1: lunch paper bags and fill them with candy. And I

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Speaker 1: had initials on them, and they each had like twenty

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Speaker 1: of them, and we hit them all over the yard

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Speaker 1: and let them go. It was like Easter, except my

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Speaker 1: dad and I my stepfather and I would and scare

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Speaker 1: the shit out of them because it was pitch black.

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Speaker 1: We turned every light out. That was just the fire

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Speaker 1: and that was it, and we would hide, and then

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Speaker 1: my mom would even hide and scare them. So every

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Speaker 1: time they grab a bag, we.

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Speaker 2: Would jump out. And were you dressed up? Did you

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Speaker 2: have like some scary mask on?

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Speaker 1: One time I had a scary mask on. I had

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Speaker 1: a guy Fawkes mask which scared them pretty badly. And

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Speaker 1: I've had a plague mask on before. So We've tried

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Speaker 1: to do a variety of things, but it's really then

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Speaker 1: I started playing spooky music from the forest. I've always

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Speaker 1: been a big fan of that, and the kids loved it,

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Speaker 1: and now we do it in addition to trick or treating,

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Speaker 1: So I have roped myself into not only following them around. Well,

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Speaker 1: they trick or treating and get all kinds of candy,

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Speaker 1: but then we do a second night where we make

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Speaker 1: like a big chocolate cake that is a red velvet

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Speaker 1: so it's red, and then we put like red icing all.

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Speaker 1: It's just like we kind of go a little bit crazy,

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Speaker 1: but it's nice to set up that kind of tradition,

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Speaker 1: especially in a year that was so difficult for them.

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Speaker 1: We just figured out a way to make it work,

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Speaker 1: and they loved it so much that I'm sure we're

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Speaker 1: going to be doing this until they're in their thirties,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll be with grandchildren doing this.

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Speaker 2: Either that or they're traumatized for life with all the

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Speaker 2: jump scares they've been subjected to.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly it's it. One is traumatized and the other

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Speaker 1: one loves every scary movie. She and my mom will

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Speaker 1: watch everything together. They'll watch Halloween Friday the thirteenth. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just like everything you can think of, all the classic stuff.

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Speaker 1: They love it and I hate all that stuff. I

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Speaker 1: made it through Alien and I think that was pretty

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Speaker 1: much that did it for me.

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Speaker 2: So now you're talking that's my kind of movie. Alien

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Speaker 2: Aliens is awesome. The sequel, I love that movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh really okay, well I was thinking Predator, but we're

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Speaker 1: gonna see what happens going forward. So my mom I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, why don't you show Ella Poltergeist, which is

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Speaker 1: such a classic movie and I think super creepy. And

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Speaker 1: my mom miss, she's gonna kill me when she hears this.

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Speaker 1: She misunderstood and she thought I said Exorcist.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's two very different movies.

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Speaker 1: Came home and she said, I don't really ever want

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Speaker 1: to see that movie again. And I said, I cannot

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Speaker 1: believe greedy. He didn't realize that. And now she doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to see Poltergeist because she doesn't believe me that

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Speaker 1: I say poltergeys is I think, okay, I mean Ella

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Speaker 1: is pretty. She really can take some scares and some

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Speaker 1: blood and stuff. Anyway, I think she's sticking with some

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Speaker 1: of the more traditional movies. She does not want to

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Speaker 1: see Bolder Guys that I said, it's okay, I'll watch

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Speaker 1: Boulder Guys. So anyway, well, let's get into this story.

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Speaker 1: This is not a particularly creepy halloweeny story, but it

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Speaker 1: is to me so interesting because you and I have

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Speaker 1: not really really talked in depth for a while about fingerprinting.

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Speaker 1: And this is a significant case because it's the first

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Speaker 1: fingerprint evidence in the UK. We talked about a long

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Speaker 1: time ago. You'll remember the first fingerprint case in America. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and this is in the UK. It's earlier and controversial,

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Speaker 1: and I have really good photos for you, and we

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Speaker 1: can really talk about the worlds and swirls and all

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Speaker 1: the other technical things and expert witnesses and who do

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Speaker 1: we believe here and how does this all work. So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and jump into it. And let's set

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Speaker 1: the scene. We are going to England, where I love

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Speaker 1: spending a lot of time. You see a trend with

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Speaker 1: some of the stories that I pick. So we are

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Speaker 1: in South London and we're at a oil and color

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Speaker 1: shop which is called Chapman's. This is in nineteen oh five,

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Speaker 1: so a little more contemporary.

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Speaker 2: Wow, oh my god.

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Speaker 1: We're in the twentieth century. Holy moly. So that's why

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Speaker 1: I know you love the photography. I like to dip

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Speaker 1: into the twentieth century every once in a while and

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Speaker 1: climb out of the seventeenth century. So this is Monday

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Speaker 1: March twenty seventh, nineteen oh five. And this is a

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Speaker 1: paint shop in Deptford, South London, and it was managed

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Speaker 1: by a seventy year old man named Thomas Farrow, and

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Speaker 1: he was there as a manager for twenty four years.

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Speaker 1: Very committed. He lived on the property for security, probably

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Speaker 1: also with his sixty five year old wife Anne. This

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Speaker 1: starts where a bad movie would start, which is someone

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Speaker 1: enters the shop and employee enters the shop, and so

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Speaker 1: many of our stories happen like this, and they step

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Speaker 1: into a really terrible scene that probably happened the night before.

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Speaker 1: And this happens to an unfortunate teenager named William Jones,

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Speaker 1: who arrives at the shop at eight thirty in the

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Speaker 1: morning to start his shift. The operating hours for Chapman's

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Speaker 1: Oil and Color store were eight am to nine thirty pm.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who's buying paints at nine thirty pm,

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Speaker 1: but he kept very long hours. William turns to the door.

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Speaker 1: He says, it's closed, it's locked up. I am totally

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Speaker 1: confused because Thomas lives here and he he's always opening

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Speaker 1: the store on time. So he gets worried because this

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Speaker 1: is very unusual because Thomas has a very strict schedule,

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Speaker 1: and he looks through one of the windows he sees

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Speaker 1: some of the furniture knocked around inside. He gets worried.

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Speaker 1: He goes next door to a man named Lewis Kidman.

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Speaker 1: He's working nearby, and they break into the store together.

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Speaker 1: So they walk in and there's sort of a parlor room,

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Speaker 1: sitting room, which is just behind beyond the retail area

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Speaker 1: of the store, and they find Thomas Farrow dead. He's

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Speaker 1: lying underneath an overturned chair and there's a pool of

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Speaker 1: blood beneath him. His head was so badly bludgeoned that

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Speaker 1: his brain was visible. And this sounds traumatizing to I'm

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Speaker 1: sure a teenager who is witnessing this. So we've talked

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Speaker 1: about this before. I have always been under the impression

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Speaker 1: that it would take a lot to bash through a

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Speaker 1: skull to show a brain visible to a per person,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lay person who could say, I know

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Speaker 1: that's a brain. Is that an indication of extreme violence

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Speaker 1: or could that not be very difficult for someone who

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Speaker 1: is trying to perhaps rob them.

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Speaker 2: Well, it really depends on the weapon that was used,

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Speaker 2: you know, the human skull when it's intact is very

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Speaker 2: resistant to being crushed in. I mean, that's its job

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Speaker 2: is to protect the brain when you're dealing with a

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Speaker 2: what I would consider a massive weapon, something that has

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Speaker 2: a lot of weight to it, such as a pipe wrench.

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Speaker 2: And even though the surface of the pipe wrench, if

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Speaker 2: it's on the side, is fairly broad because of the

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Speaker 2: weight and the amount of force, because there's a length

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Speaker 2: to the handle. Yes, definitely, a single blow with something

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Speaker 2: like a pipe wrench could completely compromise the integrity of

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Speaker 2: a human skull. And you know, once the skull's integrity

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Speaker 2: is compromised, subsequent blows could absolutely open up the human head,

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Speaker 2: you know. And I've seen these. I've had these cases

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Speaker 2: in which you know, there's bludgeoning and brain matter is exposed,

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Speaker 2: you know. But also a weapon that has a when

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Speaker 2: you think about something like a hammer, I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is something that has a very focused force when it's used.

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Speaker 2: It punches holes in the human skull if it hits

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Speaker 2: the face of the hammer hits straight on. But it's

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Speaker 2: not going to be something that somebody would be saying, ah,

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Speaker 2: I see his brain. So when I'm hearing, Okay, this

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Speaker 2: victim's brain is exposed, but still contained within the open skull.

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Speaker 2: That suggests to me that, yeah, you possibly are dealing

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Speaker 2: with a more massive weapon, possibly a few blows. But

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Speaker 2: if a massive weapon had been used, and let's say

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Speaker 2: this is a frenzied style homicide, to where it's what

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Speaker 2: people would utilize the term dramatic overkill, oftentimes the human

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Speaker 2: head could be comple letely crushed in and now you're

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Speaker 2: not even looking at something that's recognizable as a head.

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Speaker 1: For the most part, awful and I'm sure traumatizing to

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Speaker 1: William and to Lewis who came to his rescue when

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Speaker 1: they came in. And we'll see in a minute. You're

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Speaker 1: lucky because we have a pretty extensive autopsy report. But

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Speaker 1: we have to address Anne first. So remember his wife

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Speaker 1: is there also, she's sixty five. They live there, and

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Speaker 1: William and Lewis know this, and they're both panicked over Anne.

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Speaker 1: While William and Lewis are trying to take in what's

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Speaker 1: happened to Thomas, I think they're both scared that the perpetrator,

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Speaker 1: the offender, is still hanging around, so they go find

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Speaker 1: a police officer, and then the police officer goes upstairs

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Speaker 1: with Lewis to the bedroom area, and that's where they

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Speaker 1: find Anne. She's in the bedroom. She's still alive, but

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Speaker 1: really and she's in shock. So some sources say she

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Speaker 1: was completely unconscious at this point. Some say she was

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Speaker 1: moaning in pain. She had been badly bludgeoned in the head.

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Speaker 1: No signs of sexual assault. I always say that caveat

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything. But it doesn't appear to be a

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. She's taken to the hospital and she dies

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Speaker 1: of her injuries four days later, and we do have

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Speaker 1: an autopsy report, so we can talk about that. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how important you're going to think it is,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's important to talk about the details

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Speaker 1: and the kind of details that they could surmise in

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Speaker 1: nineteen oh five, which I always find impressive.

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Speaker 2: I always, when I'm working a case and I first

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Speaker 2: open up the case file, I immediately turn to autopsy reports

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Speaker 2: because I need to know what has been done to

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Speaker 2: the victim. And then I go to the crime scene

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Speaker 2: and correlate what's been done to the victim, the victim's injuries,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, and look at, Okay, how does the evidence

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Speaker 2: at the crime scene, you know, inform me as to

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Speaker 2: what happened. So knowing the types of injuries of victims

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Speaker 2: hat helps me reconstruct what's going on in the crime scene,

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Speaker 2: which can oftentimes provide the potential motive that the offender has.

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Speaker 1: You're right, we don't have a motive yet. We don't

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Speaker 1: know if this was robbery. We don't know if this

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Speaker 1: was personal. It could have been Lewis and William who

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Speaker 1: had set this whole thing up, knowing their routine. So

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Speaker 1: let's start with the autopsy and you could tell me

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Speaker 1: what you think the majority of this is Thomas, and

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Speaker 1: then the divisional surgeon of the police, who's the one

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Speaker 1: who did this examination, addresses a little bit about Anne.

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Speaker 1: So this is what Dudley Burney, who is the surgeon

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Speaker 1: of the police said. Thomas had a wound above his

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Speaker 1: right eyebrow that did not cause fracture of the bone.

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Speaker 1: There was another wound on the right side of his

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Speaker 1: nose extending to the right side of his face, tearing

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Speaker 1: away part of the cartilage. About three inches above the

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Speaker 1: top of his right ear. There was a large, contused

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Speaker 1: scalp wound. Gosh, this guy really got it in the

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Speaker 1: face on the left side of his head about three

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Speaker 1: inches above his left ear. There was an exactly similar

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Speaker 1: wound about one inch behind his left ear. There was

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Speaker 1: an incized wound with sharp cut edges, somewhat circular in

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Speaker 1: shape and penetrating down to the bone. And there's one

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Speaker 1: more weird wound thing that I want to point out.

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Speaker 1: And then a little bit more detail above that the

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Speaker 1: somewhat circular shape thing. There was a triangular wound also

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Speaker 1: going down to the skull. Also some bruising on the

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Speaker 1: back of the skull. On removing the scalp, I found

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Speaker 1: the bone had been fractured in one place. There was

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Speaker 1: commutanant comming.

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Speaker 2: You did it, yeah, where you half fractures that are

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Speaker 2: joining up.

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Speaker 1: The bone was broken into several pieces at one particular

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Speaker 1: place that was in the region of the temple in

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Speaker 1: front of the ear. The cheekbone was also fractured on

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Speaker 1: the right side. It was further round than the wound

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Speaker 1: by the nose. There had been hemorrhage from the blood

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Speaker 1: vessels of the brain. Apart from the injuries, the body

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Speaker 1: was healthy, well preserved. He says that the death was

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Speaker 1: due to shock and hemorrhage, the direct result of the injuries.

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Speaker 1: In my judgment, there were for Thomas about six blows.

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Speaker 1: The major portion of them must have been inflicted with

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Speaker 1: a heavy and blunt instrument such as a bar or

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Speaker 1: a flat steel weapon one or two inches in width

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Speaker 1: and of some considerable length. Six blows to a seventy

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Speaker 1: year old man.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you start taking a look at the distribution

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Speaker 2: of the blows, and you've got these blows that are

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Speaker 2: occurring both on the right side and the left side

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Speaker 2: of his head, the center of his face with the nose.

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Speaker 2: This suggests to me that the early blows are occurring

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Speaker 2: while the victim is still conscious and is moving around.

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Speaker 2: So you have this dynamic target that the offender is

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Speaker 2: trying to hit, but is focusing the blows on the

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Speaker 2: victim's head. Once the victim is no longer dynamically moving.

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Speaker 2: Now you're seeing the more forceful blows where now you're

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Speaker 2: getting this you know, crushing injury, if you will, causing

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Speaker 2: that depressed skull fracture. The interesting aspect that I you know,

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Speaker 2: without a photo of the injuries, I'm hearing this what

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Speaker 2: was described as somewhat of an incisive circular wound as

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Speaker 2: well as a triangular shaped wound. This potentially suggests that

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Speaker 2: this weapon has some irregular surfaces, and the circular incisive

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Speaker 2: aspect is interesting because if it truly is incisive around

295
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,400
Speaker 2: its margins, that would indicate that there is somewhat of

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Speaker 2: a almost like a punch like circular cookie cutter formation,

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Speaker 2: in which now that surface of the weapon hits that

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Speaker 2: part of the victim's scalp and does, like that cookie

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Speaker 2: cutter style incisive breaking of the skin. It's cutting through

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Speaker 2: the skin versus smashing the skin. Even if there is

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Speaker 2: no murder and recovered. This is where now looking at it,

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Speaker 2: I can start looking at Okay, I've got a weapon

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Speaker 2: that has certain features, what kind of objects in everyday

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Speaker 2: life would have these features? And I might be able to,

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Speaker 2: you know, figure out what was the murder weapon.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you. Let's go through first what Anne's

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Speaker 1: autopsy resulted in, and then i'll tell you what Bernie thinks.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bernie thinks happened. So Bernie said, and this sounds

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Speaker 1: exactly what you're talking about. So this is again I

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Speaker 1: find it so interesting. Does Paul Holes agree with essentially

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Speaker 1: pathologists from nineteen oh five, Doctor Burnie says that Thomas

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Speaker 1: did not die instantly, that he may have lived up

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Speaker 1: to two or three hours after the beating as his

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Speaker 1: brain was emerhaging.

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Speaker 2: Does that sound right, Yeah, for sure, you know. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things I failed to comment on, you know,

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Speaker 2: the two teenage boys were saying we saw his brains,

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Speaker 2: but at least with what I am envisioning based on

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Speaker 2: the pathologist description of the victim's wounds, I don't think

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Speaker 2: his brains were exposed. Probably what was being seen is,

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Speaker 2: you know, within this depressed skull fracture, there's going to

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Speaker 2: be a lot of bleeding. There is possibly some brain

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Speaker 2: matter that may be present within the the wound itself,

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Speaker 2: but it's not like the victim's head is completely crushed

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Speaker 2: open to where his brains are exposed. So these are

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Speaker 2: just two teenage boys not knowing what they're looking at.

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Speaker 1: But to the lay person who just feels terrible for Thomas,

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Speaker 1: this sounds like a really painful death.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not a fun way to go, not at all,

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Speaker 2: you know, because he's conscious, he's receiving blows. Now, these

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Speaker 2: blows can be inflicted very quickly, you know, and once

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Speaker 2: he loses consciousness, you know, he's probably not in a

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Speaker 2: suffering state, but he's bleeding out due to the hemorrhaging

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Speaker 2: from inside his head.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about Ann. So doctor Burney

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Speaker 1: examines and he says she was only struck twice with

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Speaker 1: a blunt instrument while she was lying in bed. She

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Speaker 1: had again with this word, she had a.

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Speaker 2: What fracture common uted fracture.

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Speaker 1: On the left side of her skull on the parietal region,

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Speaker 1: and a fracture at the base of her skull.

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Speaker 2: Okay, the fracture at the base of the skull could

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Speaker 2: be something that is a result of the forces to

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Speaker 2: the blow on her head causing the base of the

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Speaker 2: skull to fracture. But it sounds like if she has

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Speaker 2: this very large injury to the left side of her head,

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Speaker 2: sounds like she's laying in her bed on her likely

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Speaker 2: more her right side, at least her head. The left

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Speaker 2: side of her head is facing up, and now you

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Speaker 2: have a very forceful blow being delivered to the left

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Speaker 2: side of her head. The interesting thing is is if

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Speaker 2: she's beaten in her bed, which it sounds like she is,

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Speaker 2: But I would also be looking at evidence, you know,

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Speaker 2: like blood patterns, et cetera, to form that opinion. Her

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Speaker 2: head is hoarded by a soft surface and so that

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Speaker 2: mitigates some of the force. So if you think about

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Speaker 2: the male victim being on the floor, and let's say

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Speaker 2: some of these blows to his skull are occurring while

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Speaker 2: his head is against this hard floor surface, then all

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Speaker 2: the force from the weapon is delivered to his is

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Speaker 2: absorbed by the skull because it doesn't have anywhere to

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Speaker 2: kind of deflect. It just has got that hard surface

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Speaker 2: supporting it. Versus the woman victim if her head is

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Speaker 2: on a pillow, on a mattress, Now some of that

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Speaker 2: force is not completely absorbed by the skull.

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Speaker 1: Which probably helped her survive four days before she ultimately died. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and also incredibly painful, we knew. Okay, So doctor Burney

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Speaker 1: starts guessing about some things. He thinks there were at

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Speaker 1: least two weapons that were used to beat Thomas. He

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Speaker 1: didn't say two people, but two weapons. Neither were ever recovered.

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Speaker 1: So one was the same blood object used on both

372
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Speaker 1: victims heads, and the other weapon used on Thomas was

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Speaker 1: the one that was the triangle shaped wound on his skull.

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Speaker 1: And Bernie thinks that it was caused by something with

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Speaker 1: a point, and he said, probably a crowbar, which makes

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Speaker 1: sense to me.

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Speaker 2: What do you think you know, that's where you imagine

378
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Speaker 2: a crowbar, and it has at one end typically the

379
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Speaker 2: kind of the flat prying surface, and then at the

380
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 2: other end it has the hook with the it also

381
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 2: is a prying tool, but also has the ability to

382
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Speaker 2: hook onto something like a nail. It has that triangular Now,

383
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Speaker 2: so not knowing exactly what triangular shape he's looking at

384
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Speaker 2: or how large it is, it's hard for me to

385
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 2: be able to say, yeah, it's this end or that

386
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: end of this crowbar. But a crowbar, if it's being

387
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 2: used to inflict these blows, first it satisfies the requirement

388
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 2: that yes, this is a massive weapon. It has irregular surfaces,

389
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: so as it's inflicting blows, as those surfaces turn, you

390
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 2: get different shaped injuries. And so this makes sense to me.

391
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: It seems consistent.

392
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: Okay, so that all makes sense. They start Now that

393
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 1: we have the injuries down, the police start investigating, and

394
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Speaker 1: they figure out that there were no signs of forced entry,

395
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: so they check all of the windows and doors. And actually,

396
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Speaker 1: this is a great time for me to show you

397
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Speaker 1: the exterior. I only have the exterior of the building,

398
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: but it'll at least give you a sense of the neighborhood.

399
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Speaker 1: You see the front of it, Chapman Oil and Color stores.

400
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: It's urban. I mean, it doesn't tell you very much

401
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: except that there are stores on either side of this store.

402
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know this. In this photo, I am

403
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: seeing the you know, it's a black and white photo,

404
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 2: of course, and I'm seeing the front of the Chapman

405
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,959
Speaker 2: Oil and Color store, and it appears that the front

406
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 2: door is right there, you know, facing the street, and

407
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 2: then right next to it, as you pointed out, appears

408
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 2: to be other storefronts on either side, but also kind

409
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: of on the second story. It appears I see windows

410
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 2: that would suggest that there's residential areas, you know, above

411
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 2: the Chapman storefront as well as on these other storefronts.

412
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 2: And that wouldn't surprise me. You know, I'm having been

413
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Speaker 2: to London several times now, I've seen these these old

414
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: buildings that look just like this, and you see the

415
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 2: stores at street level, and then you see what I'm

416
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: assuming you know, the store owners their residences are above

417
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: the stores, and that's what this appears to be.

418
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a couple of windows, and you could

419
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: see there's a pull down shades on either one. It

420
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,479
Speaker 1: looks like a residence. I'm sure this was a lovely

421
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: place for them to be. The area was not quite

422
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: poverty stricken it this time. But this is you know,

423
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: pre World War One, and there was certainly a big

424
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: gulf between the very wealthy and the very poor in London.

425
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: But this seemed to be, you know, a good life

426
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: for these folks. And boy, what a tragedy. So let's

427
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 1: get back to the story. So we are now looking

428
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 1: for any reason why they would have you know, done

429
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: this and who this was. Police now think that this

430
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: must have been motivated by robbery because the store's cash

431
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: box was emptied and discarded on the pharaoh's bedroom floor

432
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 1: where they killed Anne. Okay, what the police think happened

433
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: is that. And I don't know if this makes sense, honestly, Paul.

434
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: If we think that Anne was in bed, I don't

435
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: know if the whoever came in, if these were in

436
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: fact robbers after they killed Thomas, if they looked around

437
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: and couldn't find a cash box, which they would have

438
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: had because it's a business. If Anne heard and called

439
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: out to them, the police said, maybe she had you know,

440
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: heard the ruckus and said something and they came upstairs.

441
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: But if she's in bed asleep, I'm not sure if

442
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: she would have called out. I wonder if they just

443
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: went upstairs because they knew there was a residence up there.

444
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: But then they encountered her and to keep her quiet,

445
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: they killed her. And then they find this cash box.

446
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: I'm not saying they knew where the cash box was.

447
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you know, it was upstairs for safekeeping,

448
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: and they somehow found it and eliminated another witness at

449
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: the same time.

450
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, right now, it appears, you know, that the offenders

451
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: get into a physical confrontation with the male victim kill him. Now,

452
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: they may not be aware, you know, we at this point,

453
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: you know, don't know if the offenders knew anything about

454
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,239
Speaker 2: the victims, had previously worked for the victims, like this

455
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: is an inside job, et cetera. So right now I'm

456
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 2: just kind of reconstructing the likely scenario. It appears the

457
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 2: male victim is still, you know, awake, is down in

458
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: the store. Offenders come in, They get into a physical fight,

459
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: and maybe one or more offenders, don't know, eliminate the mail.

460
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: Now they have time to kind of find what they're

461
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: there for, which is you know, the you know, the money,

462
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: and they may have searched the store recognized hey, you know,

463
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: maybe you know the occupants upstairs, that's where the safe

464
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: boxes where the cash is. They go up there and

465
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 2: happen to see Anne and decide, well, she's in bed,

466
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: take her out, and you know, grab the cash and leave.

467
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 2: That right now is probably the simplest explanation for what happened.

468
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: Well, they scored some money. They had about ten pounds,

469
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: which now would have been in the three hundred dollars

470
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: to four hundred dollars American dollar range. So they had

471
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: the money, and they left behind not very smartly. They

472
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: left behind something. Two masks that they made from women's

473
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: stockings were left behind, and I have pictures of these,

474
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: very rudimentary I'll show you. I don't know if a

475
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: mask means that they knew Thomas and that's why they

476
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: wore a mask, or if they just saw in a

477
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: movie that all robbers wear masks, but it's to cover

478
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: your identity. So I wonder if they thought they were

479
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,239
Speaker 1: going to get caught. But these are very These are

480
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: low budget masks, to say the least, in a time

481
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: where they had no money.

482
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: So this is not what I was expecting. So I'm

483
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: taking a look at these two masks. You know, when

484
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: you said made out of women's what did you say women's.

485
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: It's stockings. So women's stockings.

486
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: I was expecting, you know, you know where you see

487
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: you pull the pantyhose over the head, you know, and

488
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: you're just looking through the you know, the nylon mesh here.

489
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: I've these these masks look like kids Halloween costumes.

490
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: I mean, these are terrible. These are like Scooby Doo.

491
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: Masks, brown square pieces of fabric in which eye holes

492
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: have been cut out of and then some sort of

493
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: twine has been applied to hold this fabric over their face.

494
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 2: This is very I want to use the term juvenile.

495
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: You know, it's really rudimentary and and and unsophistic, deicated, and.

496
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: It looks annoying to me. One of them is a

497
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: little bit longer, and you would think every time you

498
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: take a breath, the bottom of this piece is going

499
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: to probably flip up. They are not intimidating looking at all.

500
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: And does this give you the impression because they are

501
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: not willing to invest in a real mask, that this

502
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: is maybe their first time doing this, and they left

503
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: them behind, which doesn't seem very smart.

504
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 2: Again, it's so rudimentary. The fact that there's two masks,

505
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: which suggest we are dealing with two offenders.

506
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: There you go.

507
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned the wearing of the masks. Does that

508
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: mean that the victims possibly new these offenders and they're

509
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: trying to prevent them from identifying them. That is a possibility,

510
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: but offenders will utilize masks to also prevent witnesses from

511
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: seeing who they are, getting any physical characteristics of them. Also,

512
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: the use of the mask could be suggestive that the

513
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: offenders went into this crime without the intention of killing

514
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: the victims. They are disguising themselves with the thought that, well,

515
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: I don't want the victims to be able to relay

516
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: you know, what I look like. So that's a possibility

517
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: as well as there may not have been intent to kill,

518
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: but they escalated when the male victim fought back. Yeah,

519
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: it's not black and white that way. These are just

520
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: different possible scenarios trying to get into the you know,

521
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: the mind of the offenders as to Okay, why wear

522
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: the mask? What are the possible scenarios that the offenders

523
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: are thinking of for the use of the mask.

524
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: Well, I have a question about the injuries because you're

525
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: bringing up fighting back. So if we think about this,

526
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: the police think that they are two people. They knock

527
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: on the door early as kind of early bird customers.

528
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: Apparently Thomas had some of those. He opens up the door,

529
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: which is why we don't have forced entry, They come in,

530
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: they put on their masks, because why would you open

531
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: a door for somebody wearing masks. They come in, or

532
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: they push past him. And the fighting back part to me,

533
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: the six blows and the turn chairs, that makes sense

534
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: because that's a lot of blows. They needed to contain him.

535
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: But I did not see in the autopsy report anywhere

536
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: about bruising on his hands or his arms, or scrapes

537
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: or anything. It all seemed to be focused on his head.

538
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: Does that mean that he just didn't ever get a

539
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: blow in and he couldn't protect himself. I just don't

540
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: see any defensive wounds at all.

541
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: Well, that is a possibility. I mean, you could have

542
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: a scenario where with two offenders, you know, as they

543
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: go in, you know, one offender from behind. As an example,

544
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: and this is just a hypothetical, but one offender grabs

545
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: a male victim like bear hug. So now his arms

546
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: are completely contained. The other offender is now able to

547
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: freely inflict blows to his head. And these initial blows,

548
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: you know, let's say, to his face. They're causing lacerations,

549
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: but they're not necessarily devastating blows and crushing in you know,

550
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: the eye orbits and the nose that you see with

551
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: something as massive as a crowbar. There may have been

552
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: initially just what I would call control blows. You know,

553
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: it's we're going to let you know we're serious. You know.

554
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: Once the male victim is now all of a sudden

555
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: receiving some of these control blows, he's recognizing, oh, you know,

556
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: I need to fight for my life, and he steps

557
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: up his physical resistance. And now the offenders, who have

558
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: the advantage in numbers, the advantage in having a weapon,

559
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: and possibly the advantage of being younger or maybe stronger,

560
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: you know, they just escalate the violence up to homicide.

561
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: But this is like a hypothetical scenario in which even

562
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: though the I believe, the male in this this scenario

563
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: is aware that he's being attacked, but he's not able

564
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: to ward off the blows because his arms are contained.

565
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: Potentially or he's just blitzed and he's on the floor

566
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: and unconscious before he even recognizes what's going on.

567
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: Of the things that you have heard, the items that

568
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: we've talked about. So we've got masks, we've got cash box,

569
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: we've got furniture, we don't have any weapons. Scotland Yard says,

570
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: we're going to pull fingerprints. Because it's nineteen oh five,

571
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: it's early even in Europe. I mean, we're just maybe

572
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: a decade or two of pulling fingerprints. They've been using

573
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: fingerprints for a very long time, but in criminal cases

574
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: it's not used very often. But Scotland Yard has started

575
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: a fingerprinting bureau. They send a detective out who analyzes prints.

576
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: What are the things that we're able to pull from

577
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: I know that we've talked about fabric. Is it just

578
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: impossible to get any kind of fingerprint off of these masks?

579
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: So typically fabric has a you know, a woven aspect

580
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: to it that will not record those small details. You

581
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: can see. Let's say a bloody finger touches fabric. You

582
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: could see the outline of the finger. You could say, yeah,

583
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: that looks like a finger has touched that location. But

584
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,719
Speaker 2: due to the texture of the fabric, it doesn't record

585
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: the ridge detail as well as the really minute kind

586
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: of what we call points, the ending ridge, the you know, bifurcations, trifurcations,

587
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: even the class characteristics such as your loops and whirls.

588
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: So typically you need a smoother surface in order to

589
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 2: be able to see, to have that fine detail that

590
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: can be used in a comparison. So the masks themselves,

591
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: you know, that does look like a fairly rough fabric.

592
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: In fact, even though you said it's you know, from

593
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: a woman's stocking, it almost looks like a canvas like

594
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: material to my eyes, you know. So if they're processing

595
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: surfaces for fingerprints, they're likely processing smooth surfaces, and I

596
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: imagine they're using a powder of some sort during this timeframe.

597
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: You're right. The detective Inspector Charles Collins, who's with the

598
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: Fingerprinting Bureau of Scotland Yard says, bingo, let's look at

599
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: this cash box. Because the guys didn't wear gloves, they

600
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: looked at the cash box, they knew enough to not

601
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: touch it with their own fingerprints. They used a piece

602
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: of paper, which of course is not ideal, but they

603
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: used a piece of paper to avoid getting their own

604
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: prints on it. Detective Inspector Collins looks at a really

605
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: clear he says, a clear print, good clear imprint with

606
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 1: what he says is ample ridge detail that was caused

607
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: by perspiration. He says, from somebody's thumb. I have the

608
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: cash box to show you, and I also have the

609
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: actual fingerprint that was taken and a comparison. So do

610
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: you want to see the cash box what they pulled

611
00:34:59,320 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: this from?

612
00:34:59,640 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 2: First?

613
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: Sure, I was impressed. This seems so early on to

614
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: be able to start really kind of getting in and

615
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: comparing these. So perspiration is that what happens? Is that

616
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: actually what happens. What it is that causes the greasy fingerprint.

617
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: The fingerprint residue is actually a combination of an aqueous

618
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: and lipid components. You know, so when you think about

619
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: your skin, of course you have sweat and that's going

620
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 2: to be your aqueous aspect, right, but you also you

621
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: think about the oil that your skin produces. You know,

622
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: I'm like my face, I'm notoriously greasy, you know, I'm

623
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: constantly putting out that oil that helps keep the skin

624
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: somewhat moist. You know. It's why like if I'm doing

625
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: TV stuff, they're constantly having to powder me up. So

626
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: I'm not like super shiny, but that is a kind

627
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: of a lipid or fat component. And so both these

628
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: aquious and fat components is what make up fingerprint residues.

629
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: And so those components are deposited on the surface and

630
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: then when a serf that surface is dusted with these powders,

631
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: the powder sticks to this. It's not just sweat.

632
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: Well, let me show you this cash box. They compare

633
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: the print. Oh yeah, there it is, seeing they're pointing

634
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 1: to it. They compared the print to Ann and Thomas

635
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: they took post mortem. Doesn't match. So what are you

636
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 1: looking at here? This is a metal, clearly metal cash box,

637
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: and it looks like they icee powder everywhere. They're trying

638
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: to figure this out.

639
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: So what I'm looking at it almost looks, you know,

640
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: without any scale for reference, but this looks like a

641
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 2: metal box that has a hinged lid on top that

642
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: flips back to open up. It appears to be roughly

643
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: the size of a standard shoe box. It's much smaller

644
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: than what I was thinking. I do see a keyhole

645
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: on the front surface, the front side of this cash box,

646
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: and then I'm assuming what has been propped on top

647
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: of this open cash box is a tray that normally

648
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 2: would be inside kind of just like a toolbox, an

649
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: old style metal toolbox. When I'm evaluating this cash box,

650
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 2: what I'm focusing in on in terms of for Layton

651
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 2: Prince is the surface, and in this photograph, this cash

652
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 2: box has a very smooth surface everywhere I'm seeing, so

653
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: it appears to be ideal to record Layton Prince. The

654
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: other thing that I'm looking for is signs of forced entry,

655
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 2: and right now I'm not seeing anywhere where the metal

656
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: has been Pride. The keyhole itself does not appear to

657
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: be damaged, So if this was locked, I'm kind of wondering, well,

658
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: how did the offenders get into it? This appears to

659
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 2: be a very I wouldn't necessarily say it's not ay,

660
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 2: but it's not does not appear to be something that

661
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: is robust to really prevent somebody who wants to get

662
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: into it from getting into it, like a true safe,

663
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 2: And I imagine that this style lock that's in here

664
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: is probably very easy to pick. You wouldn't need any

665
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: sophistication in order to be able to open up this

666
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: cash box. But right now I would say, yeah, this

667
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 2: cash box appears to be something that would is very

668
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: amenable to fingerprint processing.

669
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: You know. And on top of that, if you're thinking

670
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: about when you would lock the cash box, it would

671
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: be downstairs with all of these people floating around. He's

672
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: showing people paint all day, and you would want to

673
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: lock it up when it's downstairs. When it's upstairs in

674
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: your private residence. Maybe he keeps it unlocked because he's

675
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: constantly taking cash out to pay bills, but also maybe

676
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: he makes deposits at the bank. So I wouldn't be

677
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: surprised if they kept it unlocked, you know, early in

678
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: the morning. Maybe he unlocked it first thing in the

679
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: morning to kind of, you know, do something, and then

680
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: they came in and got it then. So you're right.

681
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 1: It also probably is not that difficult just to bust

682
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: it open. It's hard to tell that, but they have

683
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: taken this fingerprint, and Scotland Yard has created a database

684
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: of thousands of fingerprints. I'm presuming of standard residence would

685
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: also have known criminals that was you know, done, and

686
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: people who were in prison. So they compared this fingerprint

687
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: and I'm going to show you the fingerprint to all

688
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: of these different people and none of them were a

689
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: match including as I said to the victim, this is

690
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: they say, enlarged and marked up image of the fingerprint,

691
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: and it looks like it's doing. You know, the examiner

692
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: is making all these points, he's pointing and numbering the

693
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: different breaks, right, the unique features. Is that what your

694
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: read is on this?

695
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 2: Well oftentimes yes, and this is it is a very

696
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: routine way that fingerprint examiners will go through and highlight

697
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: the important features that they utilize for comparison. So you

698
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: see where they've numbered them, you know, one, two, three, four, five,

699
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: and have drawn a line, and you see where the

700
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: line terminates inside the fingerprint image, where it's terminating at

701
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 2: an ending ridge. As an example, let's see here number three,

702
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: the line goes down and they're pointing out what is

703
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: a bifurcation. And that's an interesting bifurcation because this ridge

704
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 2: detail bifurcates at point number three, and then at point

705
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: number five that now two ridge details immediately converges back

706
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: into a single ridge. So you see how now they've

707
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: shown that you've got kind of a mirror image of

708
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 2: a bifurcation that is connected. So that's what I mean,

709
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: even to this day, This is how fingerprinting is are

710
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: ams will point out the various features within the print

711
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: that they're utilizing to affect a comparison.

712
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: Well, now we have something else that's sort of dubious,

713
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: which is the eyewitness. The break in the case is

714
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: not from the finger printing because remember I said, Scotland

715
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: Yard compared it to all of these prints, thousands of

716
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: prints that they have and they could not find with

717
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: those unique features, they could not find a match. But

718
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: there were multiple people outside the store because this is

719
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 1: a busy, you know street in South London in the

720
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: very beginning of the day. They saw two men leaving

721
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: the paint store around seven point fifteen in the morning,

722
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 1: so this is an hour and fifteen minutes before he's

723
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: even supposed to open. And two witnesses identified one of

724
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: the men as a guy named Alfred Stratton. He's twenty

725
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: two years old and he and his younger brother, Albert,

726
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: so there's Alfred and Albert twenty two and twenty were

727
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: very well known to the police, but they were never

728
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: convicted of a crime, which is why they didn't have

729
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: the fingerprints. So this is the turn in the case

730
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: where the brothers. Of course you will here, deny everything.

731
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: But you've got these witnesses that say we saw at

732
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: least one of them run out of this store right

733
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: before this guy was killed. So the reliability of witnesses

734
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: if they know the person is that's still considered very reliable.

735
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: Or can it they make a mistake even if they

736
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: say I know that guy, I know Alfred and I

737
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 1: saw him leave. Is there any chance that, aside from lying,

738
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: that a witness could be wrong.

739
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 2: There's always a chance, you know, a witness could be wrong.

740
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: But if the witness is able to say I know

741
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: this person, you know, it's like, well, how do you

742
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 2: know this How well do you know this person that

743
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: level of familiarity. You know, there are times where you

744
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: may have met somebody once you know, and you kind

745
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: of remember what they look like, and then you see

746
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: somebody on the street that looks like that person and

747
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: you think it's them, and the reality is it's your

748
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: doppelganger type of scenario. But if you have a witness

749
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: that's like, yeah, I interact with that person every day.

750
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: I'm chasing him off, you know, he's you know, sitting

751
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: in front of my store. As an example, I'm constantly

752
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: having to chase him off. Now I put greater weight

753
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: on that witness because of the level of familiarity, So

754
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: the likelihood of a miss ID in that scenario is less.

755
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: It still can happen, especially if it's a very dynamic,

756
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 2: unexpected situation where the witness looks out, here's a scream,

757
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: there's stuff going on, and they think, oh, that looks

758
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 2: like one of the Stratton brothers. Well, it may look

759
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 2: like a Stratton brother, but is it the Stratton brother

760
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: But if the person is saying I deal with the

761
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: Stratton brothers all the time, then I'm going okay. You know,

762
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: I put a lot of weight on what that witness

763
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 2: is saying.

764
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: Okay, And these guys are troublemakers. They're young, twenty and

765
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: twenty two. So we get to the alibi, and finally

766
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: I am relieved that there are two ones who refused

767
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: to alibi and lie. For these guys, they both have girlfriends.

768
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if they chose poorly or not, but

769
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: they both have girlfriends. Alfred, who is the one that

770
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 1: we think was spotted coming out of the store positively spotted,

771
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: has a girlfriend named Annie Calmerty, and she says, yeah,

772
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: he spent the night with me, the night that this happened,

773
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: you know, the night into the morning that this happened.

774
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: But I have no idea if he actually stayed the

775
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: whole night. I went to sleep, So she said, I'm

776
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: not giving this guy an albi. And she did say

777
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 1: something interesting that I'm not sure what this means. She said,

778
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: when she woke up on Monday morning, which is after

779
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: the robbery takes place, Alfred was already fully dressed, and

780
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 1: he smelled like paraffin, as in the wax. What would

781
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: that mean? Can you think of what that would mean

782
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: in this scenario?

783
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 2: You know those masks, you know, is it possible that

784
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: they dipped that fabric in like molten paraffin?

785
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: Could have because he asks his girlfriend for some stockings,

786
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: He said, do you have a pair of stockings? I

787
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: can have please? He had also gotten rid of all

788
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: the clothing he had worn that night. I'm assuming because

789
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: it had blood on it and there was new money.

790
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: So there's a whole bunch of circumstantial evidence. But the paraffin,

791
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: I don't know why they would smell like paraffin, but

792
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: she said it was a very strong smell.

793
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that's because I know again I'm just

794
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: right now with just the only things that I've actually seen,

795
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 2: you know, those masks, that that fabric looks like it's

796
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 2: relatively stiff, Like I kind of described it before, it

797
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 2: almost has like a canvas look to it versus a

798
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: stalking look to it. And so I wonder if the

799
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: stocking material was so flimsy, you know, where it wasn't

800
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: hanging right, that they just you know, melted some candles

801
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 2: and some wax and dipped that in, you know. But

802
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: that's just an absolute guess right now.

803
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me because the masks don't look

804
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: like a traditional stocking. And by the way, Albert the

805
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: brother his girlfriend, whose name is Kate Wade, also refused

806
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: to provide an alibi and said in the past month

807
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: or so that he wanted to know, Hey, do you

808
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,919
Speaker 1: have the extra socks or stockings that I could have?

809
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: If that's right, If Kate's right, and I'm sure she is.

810
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: They've been talking about this for a while, and they

811
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 1: targeted this store for a reason. Probably when you guess,

812
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: it's because Thomas is elderly and they thought that he

813
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: probably has money. It's probably a busy store. They watched

814
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: him go in and out. They knew his routine and

815
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: they thought that they could take him if he fought back.

816
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: That's an important point, right there is oftentimes when you

817
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: see elderly victims, and this even goes over to where

818
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: you're dealing with sexually motivated homicides in particular, it suggests

819
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 2: you might be dealing with a younger offender because that

820
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: offender doesn't have the self confidence to take on a

821
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 2: younger victim who might be able to put up greater resistance.

822
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: And we're dealing here with two offenders that are in

823
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 2: you know, twenty two and twenty you know, so I

824
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 2: could see that. But what also I want to point

825
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: out is even though they are now being looked at

826
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 2: for this double homicide, this robbery double homicide, well they

827
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 2: could have burglarized or robbed other storefronts that did not

828
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: result in homicide. And so they've been doing this crime

829
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: for a period of time. And then they go into

830
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 2: Chapman's and now you have the old man putting up

831
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 2: much greater resistance than what they thought, and they utilized

832
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 2: what they brought their burglary tool. Let's say it's a crowbar.

833
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: You know, the crowbar may not have been intended to

834
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: be a bludgeting weapon. It just was, well, we're going

835
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: to use this to probably open the cash box whatever

836
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 2: that is. You know, maybe it's you know, they're thinking

837
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: it's like a safe, or it's you know, it turns

838
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 2: out it's just like almost like this little toy metal box,

839
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 2: you know. So they may have been committing a string

840
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: of either robberies or burglaries on commercial establishments up until

841
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: the time that this double homicide occurred because something went

842
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: sideways on them.

843
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what I think the police are wondering too.

844
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: When they arrest the guys, they both say, you know,

845
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: our girlfriends are wrong, we were there, you know. Of course,

846
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: they plead not guilty when it's time and they were

847
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: taken to Old Bailey. They take both of the fingerprints

848
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 1: of the brothers, and Alfred's appears to be a match

849
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: to the one found on the cash box. Okay, and

850
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that because it's a a big point.

851
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 1: This is a big deal because fingerprints had been used,

852
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: as I said before, in criminal cases, but it's usually

853
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 1: like burglary, not things that are going to be capital

854
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: cases where they could be executed. So this was a

855
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: monumental important case in president setting because a double murder

856
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: would have resulted in a hanging, so everybody wanted to

857
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: be very careful. And when the defense finds out that

858
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: Alfred's fingerprint thumb print is a match to the one

859
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: on the cash box, they start gathering their resources and

860
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: they also hire a fingerprint expert. Okay, so there is

861
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: a coroner's inquest. It is a verdict of Wilford murder.

862
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: The trial is scheduled for May tewod nineteen oh five.

863
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: And this all centers on the fingerprint expert, which for

864
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,439
Speaker 1: the public, they are very skeptical. There's just it's very

865
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: new and they don't understand it. And so the fingerprint

866
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: expert from Scotland, Yard Collins, who is the one who

867
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 1: would end up testifying on behalf of the crown, he

868
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: does something that I think is interesting, which maybe explains

869
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 1: a little bit about the print that we've seen. While

870
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: the two brothers are saying we've been set up, we

871
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: were terrible boyfriends, and the girlfriends are not giving us

872
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 1: the alibis that we really have, Detective Collins takes these

873
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: images and enlarges them. He has an image of Albert's thumb,

874
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: and he also has an image that was found on

875
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 1: the cash box, and he makes them huge, which Oscar

876
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: Heinrich from my book American Sherlock used to do all

877
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: the time. It was the only way to get it

878
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: across right. So they make it huge and they bring

879
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: it in for the trial. The defense calls their own expert,

880
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: a guy named doctor John Carson, who will become problematic

881
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: here in a little bit. He actually was the one

882
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: who trained the detective Collins from Scotland Yard's Fingerprint Bureau himself.

883
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,439
Speaker 1: So these are two heavyweight experts. Now let's just talk

884
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: about the idea of will a jury get it. Will

885
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: they be able to see Alfred's fingerprint blown up in

886
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: a photo next to the cash box fingerprint? And is

887
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: this now up to Collins to really do a good

888
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: job explaining ridges and whirls and all of the nightmare points.

889
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I think people would glass over

890
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: at a certain point when you think when you talk

891
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: to sciencey to them.

892
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: Well anytime you know this is part of when you

893
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: start talking about being a forensic scientist. The most important

894
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 2: aspect of the job is being able to convey your opinions,

895
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 2: your findings in a court of law. You know, that's

896
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 2: what forensics means. People assume forensics is of science, and no,

897
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: you know, forensics is of legal matter. You know, I

898
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: was in a position of hiring people in forensic science capacities,

899
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: and part of the interview process that was so important

900
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: wasn't well, are they super smart in the science? Is

901
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: can they explain to me in a fashion in which

902
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: an average layperson can understand that answer? So it is

903
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 2: so important for anybody that is involved within forensic science

904
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 2: to have that skill set. And there are some very

905
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 2: brilliant scientists out there that suck at testimony, and in

906
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 2: my opinion, they fail as a forensic scientist.

907
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: That's a large part of my book about Oscar Heinrich

908
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: and American Sherlock is how it takes him a decade

909
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: to understand what you said. Very simply, you cannot use

910
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: three or four syllable scientific terms to people in the

911
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties who had very little education, potentially who were

912
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: sitting on a jury. He was very haughty. He was egotistical.

913
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: People sensed that, and he lost cases not because he

914
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: didn't know what he was doing, but because he didn't

915
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 1: know how to talk and that was it, and he

916
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 1: had to learn the hard way, after losing to smooth

917
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: talking experts, how to finally do it. And most of it,

918
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: Paul was visuals. He was able to show through visuals.

919
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: This is how It's almost like how I do sometimes

920
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: when I have a hard time with my lecture, you know,

921
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: and I have to look at a PowerPoint just to

922
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: keep myself straight. That's what he did with photos, and

923
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: that's what worked.

924
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 2: For him, right, And you know, particularly with the comparative

925
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: types of evidence, the visuals are so important, you know,

926
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: and especially in this day and age where and we've

927
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 2: had these these discussions because of the scrutiny that the

928
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 2: comparative sciencests have come under. Is the let's say, the

929
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 2: opinion of identification, like in fingerprints or with doing the

930
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 2: firearms comparisons with the straye on the side of the

931
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: bullets or the tool marks. Can these experts truly form

932
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 2: an opinion that these marks are unique and that they've

933
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 2: identified the person or the object that left these marks.

934
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: But what can be very important is for the jurors

935
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: themselves to see visually this comparison. Just like what your

936
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: experts are doing in this case, and they their opinion.

937
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: As long as they have been informed as to what

938
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 2: to look at, then they can form their opinion and

939
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 2: put weight on how unique or how not unique this

940
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 2: comparison is. And so that's kind of where I'm kind

941
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: of I'm really curious now to see, Okay, what kind

942
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 2: of exhibit was put in front of the jurors and

943
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,919
Speaker 2: see if I can if I agree with what these

944
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: experts are debating about during their testimony.

945
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: Well, we don't have their actual the comparison, the big photos.

946
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: I wish I could give those to you, but we

947
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: don't have those. What I can say is detective Inspector Collins,

948
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: who was trained by doctor John Carson. Carson is already

949
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: discredited by the judge pretty quickly, because I mean, this

950
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: guy he went to both the Crown and the defense

951
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 1: and basically said, who wants to pay me more money

952
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: and I'll testify? I mean, are you serious? And the

953
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:02,240
Speaker 1: judge said that doctor Carson would defense was an unreliable witness,

954
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: and he said to the jury, listen, finger printing is

955
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: in its infancy. Please don't lean too heavily on the

956
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: fingerprint evidence here. We need to look at other factors

957
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: because the lives of two men are at stake. I

958
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 1: want to give Scotland Yard a nineteen oh five huge

959
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 1: credit for not depending so much on one forensic tool,

960
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: which is what we talk about all the time. So

961
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: they found out that the Stratton brothers had tried to

962
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: pressure people into giving them alibis when they didn't have it.

963
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: They found out that the brothers had recently completely changed

964
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 1: their appearances, and they also had a huge amount of money.

965
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: So the inspectors with Scotland Yard went above and beyond

966
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: to gather circumstantial evidence. Thank goodness, because when the judge said,

967
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: listen to the jury, you really have to lean on

968
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: other things and not on the finger printing, because one,

969
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: this is new and to the defense made a huge

970
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: mistake by high ring this guy. So they went out

971
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: and they spent two hours, and they came back with

972
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: a guilty verdict. Do you and I think that the

973
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 1: Stratton brothers were guilty? Yes? Do you think that the jury,

974
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 1: despite what the judge said, you cannot put the genie

975
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: back in the bottle. The judge said, just kind of

976
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: ignore everything you just heard in all those pretty photos.

977
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: But do you think the jury had no choice but

978
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 1: to remember that you have a Scotland yard detective say

979
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: this is your guy, this is your guy. Look at

980
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: the worlds, look at the world's this is it.

981
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 2: You know, that's that is so hard to assess in

982
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 2: terms of, you know, from the juror's perspective, as how

983
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 2: much they either consciously or even subconsciously were influenced by

984
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: this novel science being put in front of him. And

985
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 2: that's that's part of what we see happening over the

986
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 2: course of the last few decades within forensic science is

987
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 2: you know, really trying to make sure that before something

988
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: is utilized in court, that the science itself is proven

989
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: because like here you're dealing with a double murder and

990
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:18,439
Speaker 2: death sentence. So and this was recognized you know, back

991
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 2: in the day, and so you have your Kelly Frye

992
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 2: hearings or your Dalbert type style to evaluate the validity

993
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 2: of the science prior to being admitted into court. But

994
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 2: we've seen some failings, you know, with even that process,

995
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 2: and it often has to do with the bar hasn't

996
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 2: been put too high. You can be qualified as an

997
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 2: expert if you just know more than the average lay person.

998
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: That is really what the definition of an expert is

999
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: in a court of law. And then when you start

1000
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: talking about the validity of the science, is it something

1001
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 2: that has been accepted within the relevant scientific community, you know,

1002
00:57:55,720 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 2: that's one of the standards. And sometimes the science the

1003
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: community is relatively sparse, you know, and so if you

1004
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: just have a few people who are looking at it,

1005
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 2: then yes, those are the people that accept it, you know.

1006
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 2: And so I think there's a definitely more robust scrutiny

1007
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 2: on any new science that's coming in now. Back in

1008
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 2: nineteen oh five, you know, these jurors heard this novel science. Now,

1009
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: with that being said, if that truly was the developed

1010
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: latent and it was matched to one of the Stratton brothers,

1011
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 2: I don't doubt he's the one that left the print.

1012
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 2: And there seems to be some circumstantial evidence. But you know,

1013
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: right now, I'm assuming they did not find the murder weapon,

1014
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 2: they did not find the bloody clothing. This is part

1015
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 2: of where I'm looking at the case. If I'm working

1016
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: this case and trying to get something a package ready

1017
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: to go over here in the United States to the DA,

1018
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: you know, I want to be able to show involvement

1019
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 2: in the homicides in the violence. The print on the

1020
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 2: cash box might indicate, yes, they were involved in a theft,

1021
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: but can I show that they were responsible for killing

1022
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 2: these two victims?

1023
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: Is there enough evidence if you remove the idea of

1024
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: the print, can we even prove that they were there?

1025
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: Aside from the witness that says I know that guy

1026
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: I saw him leave the store? Is that enough do

1027
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: you think to convict even now if you ignored, Oh,

1028
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: we could have gotten DNA and all this other stuff,

1029
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: if we ignore that just a circumstantial evidence, do you

1030
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: think this would have gotten past a jury? You know,

1031
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four.

1032
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 2: With what you've presented, I'm confident Stratton brothers are likely involved.

1033
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 2: But do I think that this case is proven beyond

1034
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 2: a reasonable doubt with what has been presented during this time? No?

1035
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 2: You know, if this were happening today, I'd expect a

1036
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 2: lot more work to be done to show their involvement

1037
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 2: in the homicide, because, quite frankly, the defense in this

1038
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 2: case is, yeah, the Stratton brothers are going around. They're

1039
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: burglarizing commercial establishments. They had previously been in Chapman's. They

1040
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,439
Speaker 2: stole money out of the cash box there that's why

1041
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 2: his print is on the cash box. But they weren't

1042
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 2: there that morning. And this witness who's saying that they

1043
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 2: saw one of the brothers emerging out of the store

1044
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 2: that morning, well, that's just mistaken identity, you know. And

1045
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 2: all you need is, you know, over here in the

1046
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 2: United States, you just need one juror to go yeah, yeah,

1047
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: you know, you know, and and a DA assesses that

1048
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 2: kind of thing, going, oh, this is an easy defense.

1049
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 2: I need a stronger case before I risk taking this

1050
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 2: to trial, because the last thing a DA wants is

1051
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 2: to put a weak case in front of a jury

1052
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 2: and get an acquittal and never be able to go

1053
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 2: after that person who likely is responsible for a, you know,

1054
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 2: two murders. They're just now off scott free.

1055
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: Yeah you know, Well these guys are convicted and they

1056
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: are sentenced to death and they are executed. And this

1057
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: completely freaks out a guy named doctor Henry Folds, who

1058
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 1: was a pioneer in forensic fingerprinting, and he said, this

1059
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: is crazy. Why did you do this? And he said,

1060
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: those prints are not perfect, the ones that you're pulling

1061
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 1: from a cash box. The whole thing is too unreliable

1062
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: and we cannot use this evidence alone to convict someone,

1063
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 1: even as this pioneer of fingerprinting, he said this should

1064
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: not be used alone. Now it wasn't, but as you're saying,

1065
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 1: you can poke holes in the other stuff. And I

1066
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 1: think you know, doctor Folds's opinion was they should have

1067
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: been given life sentences. But I mean, honestly, nineteen oh

1068
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: five in an English prison, probably the execution might have

1069
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: been better. Who knows. But this set a precedent. It

1070
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: began to be used more often. But the pioneer of

1071
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 1: forensic fingerprinting said, hold on a second, I think this

1072
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: might have been a mistake. It doesn't mean they're not guilty.

1073
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 1: It just means you now have said it doesn't take

1074
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: very much aside from fingerprinting to send somebody to the gallows,

1075
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: and that's a problem. So so the bottom line with

1076
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: this case is this is not the creepy Halloween case

1077
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: that I have bought you in the past. But boy,

1078
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 1: it's important because it is you know, an expert for

1079
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: sale question whether or not the witnesses, what the witnesses did,

1080
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 1: what the motivation is. There's a lot that is relevant

1081
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: for today. And that's why I wanted to bring you

1082
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 1: the case. I love a good Halloween story, but this

1083
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: was a really important one and I think pretty compelling.

1084
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 2: Well you've got masks.

1085
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: You do have really bad masks.

1086
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a nexus to Halloween. I mean those

1087
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 2: masks look like you know, how you take a bed

1088
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 2: sheet to make a ghost and you cut the you know,

1089
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 2: crude eyes out. That's exactly what those masks look like.

1090
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 1: Okay, good, Well, I'm glad that you were happy with

1091
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: the case. I would love for you to have a

1092
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: nice Halloween. Keep your pumpkins inside, keep them away from

1093
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: those crafty, stinking deer that you have out there that

1094
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: love to make a meal out of them or not.

1095
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: You know, you can do a dear favor and I

1096
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: will see you next week.

1097
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good? Thanks lot Kate.

1098
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: Thanks. This has been an exactly right production for our

1099
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 1: sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash

1100
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1101
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, ali Elkin, Kate Winkler Dawson.

1102
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1103
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1104
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1105
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1106
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1107
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: ary Bones.

1108
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1109
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1110
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now, and

1111
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

1112
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: cases is also available now