WEBVTT - Killer Mom Trial: Closing Arguments Set To Begin; Judge Rules Jurors Can Consider Manslaughter Vs Murder 0:00:02.230 --> 0:00:05.569 Hey there, folks. It is Thursday, August 27th, and the 0:00:05.630 --> 0:00:09.860 jury in the Lindsay Clancy trial doesn't have the case 0:00:10.100 --> 0:00:14.220 just yet, but they will soon. But even so, Lindsay 0:00:14.260 --> 0:00:18.400 Clancy has already scored a pretty major victory. And with that, 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:22.730 welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. This 0:00:22.810 --> 0:00:25.489 is huge. This is huge, what the jury is now 0:00:25.550 --> 0:00:28.580 going to be able to consider. when they go into 0:00:28.620 --> 0:00:30.360 that jury room. This was a major victory for her. 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.489 Uh, that is true because there are actually going to 0:00:33.530 --> 0:00:38.190 be five total options for jurors. And the big addition 0:00:38.310 --> 0:00:44.629 was manslaughter. And to be able to consider that as 0:00:45.260 --> 0:00:48.519 one of the verdicts is significant because now it's not 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.739 all or nothing because obviously first degree murder is on the, uh, 0:00:52.820 --> 0:00:56.940 on the table. That is premeditated or extreme atrocity or cruelty. 0:00:56.980 --> 0:00:59.360 And that is what prosecutors are trying and have been 0:00:59.380 --> 0:01:00.920 trying to present to the jury. 0:01:01.780 --> 0:01:04.860 But Robes, they had the option. Everything we've heard, we 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.610 know this woman was ill and had problems. You're giving 0:01:09.650 --> 0:01:12.590 this jury that has been emotional for five weeks. That's 0:01:12.610 --> 0:01:15.169 been emotional testimony. Robes have been in tears. They had 0:01:15.190 --> 0:01:18.110 to take breaks because people were so emotional. So now 0:01:18.130 --> 0:01:20.949 you're telling that group, you know what? You don't have 0:01:20.990 --> 0:01:22.530 to send her to prison for the rest of her life. 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.880 It's almost Robes. It's given them a way out if 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.500 they're torn in some way. Robes, how could this not 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:30.190 be the option? 0:01:31.190 --> 0:01:33.130 I mean, it's got to be considered. Look, and the 0:01:33.150 --> 0:01:35.310 defense is hoping that they're going to go with the 0:01:35.410 --> 0:01:38.810 other extreme, which is not guilty by reason of lack 0:01:38.890 --> 0:01:44.200 of criminal responsibility or insanity or postpartum psychosis. whatever you 0:01:44.220 --> 0:01:45.440 want to put on the end of it. That's what 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:51.160 they want. But certainly having this manslaughter option where you 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:55.230 are acknowledging basically that, yes, she is suffering from mental 0:01:55.330 --> 0:01:58.230 illness and that is a part of it. And that's 0:01:58.270 --> 0:02:01.730 why it absolves her of some of the responsibility, but 0:02:01.770 --> 0:02:05.050 it doesn't absolve her of all the criminal responsibility. 0:02:05.070 --> 0:02:09.089 And the prosecutors pushed back on this. They didn't want 0:02:09.130 --> 0:02:12.130 this included necessarily. I guess you can understand why, but it's... 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:14.250 I didn't think about it ahead of time, or we 0:02:14.270 --> 0:02:17.550 didn't talk about it that much ahead of time. This 0:02:17.630 --> 0:02:20.370 is so tough on these jurors. They had the option 0:02:20.430 --> 0:02:22.170 of either putting this woman in prison for the rest 0:02:22.190 --> 0:02:26.450 of her life, or making the determination that she's ill. 0:02:27.210 --> 0:02:29.530 If you're not convinced one way or another, Robes, and 0:02:29.550 --> 0:02:32.049 it feels like that's fair, that you're not convinced that 0:02:32.110 --> 0:02:33.230 either one is the right thing to do. 0:02:33.250 --> 0:02:35.859 It is fair, because think about it. They listened to 0:02:35.860 --> 0:02:42.930 85 witnesses over five weeks ago. That is a tremendous 0:02:43.090 --> 0:02:45.870 amount of testimony. And as you pointed out, a lot 0:02:45.910 --> 0:02:49.630 of it was very emotional. We heard from Patrick Clancy, 0:02:50.090 --> 0:02:50.850 her husband. 0:02:50.970 --> 0:02:51.970 That was five weeks ago. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:52.070 Yes. 0:02:52.070 --> 0:02:54.260 He was the first witness. Damn, girl. He was. 0:02:54.380 --> 0:02:58.600 And then you've got her mother, her sister, her mother-in-law, 0:02:58.980 --> 0:03:04.320 her coworkers, her friends, Patrick's friends. And then you have 0:03:04.780 --> 0:03:11.220 all the psychologists and psychiatrists. And even though that was technical, scientific... 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:15.859 research-based it was still emotional because you're still talking about 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.320 strangling three young children i don't think there was a 0:03:20.460 --> 0:03:23.150 boring witness in the sense that yes in law enforcement 0:03:23.220 --> 0:03:26.190 too we heard from them but everything that every witness 0:03:26.230 --> 0:03:28.770 had to add packed a punch and there was an 0:03:28.830 --> 0:03:30.030 emotional element to. 0:03:30.110 --> 0:03:31.990 All of it do i have right does this seem 0:03:32.270 --> 0:03:33.910 do i have right all the experts were at the 0:03:33.970 --> 0:03:37.270 end Do we have one early on? It seems like 0:03:37.450 --> 0:03:39.550 the last week has been just back to back. 0:03:39.430 --> 0:03:41.010 To back to back. I think it's hard to remember. 0:03:41.530 --> 0:03:43.210 I don't know what they, you know what they had? 0:03:43.230 --> 0:03:47.100 They had doctors. They had her doctors in there early on. Dr. 0:03:47.140 --> 0:03:49.760 Jennifer Tufts, we heard from the clinicians. 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:50.300 She was early? 0:03:50.340 --> 0:03:53.780 Tufts was earlier? Yes, fairly early. on from the prosecution 0:03:53.820 --> 0:03:58.750 because they were, yes, establishing the doctors who directly treated 0:03:58.810 --> 0:04:04.510 her were at the beginning. And then the forensic psychiatrists 0:04:04.530 --> 0:04:07.790 and psychologists who study these cases who have decades of 0:04:07.890 --> 0:04:12.830 experience then analyzed her particular case in its totality. 0:04:12.870 --> 0:04:16.820 Yeah, their decades of experience really came through in this testimony. 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.380 It is pretty striking that in a case this big, 0:04:20.570 --> 0:04:24.589 The best experts you can find to say she was 0:04:24.670 --> 0:04:29.700 sane or insane have virtually zero experience treating a woman 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.100 with postpartum psychosis. It's remarkable. People who have been in 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.839 the game for 40, 50 years say, yeah, I treated 0:04:35.860 --> 0:04:37.700 maybe two ladies 30 years ago. 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.580 Right. It was all single digits. No one that I 0:04:41.620 --> 0:04:45.850 can remember or recall admitted to, testified to, could prove 0:04:45.930 --> 0:04:51.540 that they treated women with postpartum psychosis... More than they 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.300 could count on one hand. I mean, that is just 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.700 the truth. And that's striking. And as a juror, you 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.200 have to take that into account because, yes, they could 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:07.630 be extremely well-versed and experienced and have all the academic 0:05:07.770 --> 0:05:12.489 accolades you could want. But if they haven't individually treated 0:05:12.510 --> 0:05:15.349 a woman with this disorder, how could they possibly be 0:05:15.710 --> 0:05:16.460 an expert on it? 0:05:16.529 --> 0:05:18.430 That's crazy. You have to dig into the resumes because 0:05:18.450 --> 0:05:21.700 they look great. These resumes, all this stuff they've done, 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.860 and the prosecution's asking the questions. This person seems like 0:05:24.900 --> 0:05:27.339 they are just the best in the field. And then 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.500 Reddington gets up there and starts going through that same resume. 0:05:30.870 --> 0:05:34.650 And then you realize this person has no expertise. Some 0:05:34.690 --> 0:05:38.110 of them didn't even have expertise in treating women. They 0:05:38.150 --> 0:05:40.650 didn't even have a long history of treating women who 0:05:40.690 --> 0:05:41.770 had had babies. 0:05:42.850 --> 0:05:44.210 Certainly women who've been pregnant. 0:05:44.270 --> 0:05:49.460 That's kind of discrediting to a certain degree. That would 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.599 make you stop as a juror. I don't know what 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:52.580 to do with this field. 0:05:52.740 --> 0:05:54.640 It makes me stop as a woman, to be honest. 0:05:54.660 --> 0:05:58.820 And we've complained about this collectively as a group that 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.010 our health concerns, I mean, even look at breast cancer, 0:06:02.190 --> 0:06:05.970 all sorts of medical issues that involve women have the 0:06:06.070 --> 0:06:09.400 least amount of of research, the least amount of funding. 0:06:09.500 --> 0:06:11.810 And it's just been historically that way. And we've had 0:06:11.820 --> 0:06:15.210 to push and argue and yell and scream to get attention. 0:06:15.250 --> 0:06:18.150 Now add mental health to that and women, and then 0:06:18.250 --> 0:06:21.430 add pregnancy to that with all the hormones that any 0:06:21.490 --> 0:06:24.190 woman out there who's listening, who's been pregnant, that is 0:06:24.370 --> 0:06:28.510 real and it can be overwhelming. And yes, we're seeing 0:06:28.570 --> 0:06:31.169 here in this trial, at least according to the defense, 0:06:31.270 --> 0:06:32.270 it can be deadly. 0:06:32.710 --> 0:06:36.310 That point you just made was made best for me, 0:06:36.350 --> 0:06:41.140 at least Robes, Was it Avram Mack when Reddington had 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.240 one of the prosecution psychiatrists up there? And he had 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:49.520 this 1,000-plus page Bible of mental disorders that psychiatrists use. 0:06:49.790 --> 0:06:51.630 And he asked the guy, pointed, show me where it 0:06:51.690 --> 0:06:55.790 has anything to do with postpartum depression or psychosis. It 0:06:55.810 --> 0:06:59.270 was like a paragraph or two. And it didn't even specifically. Robes, 0:06:59.290 --> 0:07:02.730 that was striking of how little has been paid attention 0:07:02.750 --> 0:07:03.010 to this. 0:07:03.510 --> 0:07:06.339 And I think that's why you saw those hundreds of 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.220 women dressed in pink outside of the Lindsay Clancy murder 0:07:10.260 --> 0:07:16.000 trial saying, listen to us, believe us, hear us, study us, 0:07:16.220 --> 0:07:20.920 do something about this because we have been forgotten, ignored, 0:07:21.020 --> 0:07:26.460 and maybe even brushed aside. And this case is putting 0:07:26.980 --> 0:07:30.260 that issue on the map. And proves the fact that 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.930 it has not been given the attention it deserves. And yes, 0:07:34.050 --> 0:07:37.490 I know we're specifically talking about postpartum psychosis, but this 0:07:37.630 --> 0:07:39.410 also involves, and I think a lot of women who 0:07:39.450 --> 0:07:42.810 have spoken up and reacted to this case have also 0:07:43.430 --> 0:07:46.790 talked about postpartum depression and just how serious that is 0:07:46.830 --> 0:07:48.330 and how deadly that can be. 0:07:48.650 --> 0:07:50.270 And Rose, we were talking about this 20 years ago 0:07:50.290 --> 0:07:53.250 with Andrew Yates, this exact same thing. And we're going 0:07:53.270 --> 0:07:56.080 to get into, and we'll have an episode up, uh, 0:07:56.750 --> 0:07:59.330 It is striking the similarities between the Clancy case and 0:07:59.370 --> 0:08:01.510 the Andrea Yates case out of Texas. But Robes, you've 0:08:01.530 --> 0:08:04.270 been talking about, we have been talking about emotion. How 0:08:04.290 --> 0:08:07.070 this jury, what was the emotion like? As I've been 0:08:07.110 --> 0:08:09.890 going back and looking at that case, the jurors came 0:08:09.930 --> 0:08:11.570 out and they talked to the press. Baby, it was 0:08:11.610 --> 0:08:14.510 about emotion. It was emotional for them. How could it 0:08:14.530 --> 0:08:16.750 not be? And one of the last things they said, Robes, 0:08:17.530 --> 0:08:19.630 y'all need to do something to make sure this doesn't 0:08:19.670 --> 0:08:20.350 happen again. Wow. 0:08:20.550 --> 0:08:23.790 And here we are now, 20 years later. 0:08:23.810 --> 0:08:28.390 Almost a direct quote. They flat out were hooting and hollering, industry, everybody, 0:08:28.570 --> 0:08:31.000 do something. Do not have another woman in this position. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.220 And my God, I just got chills to hear you 0:08:34.300 --> 0:08:39.679 say that. And look, we ended testimony yesterday on Wednesday 0:08:39.820 --> 0:08:44.540 with an FBI forensic psychiatrist. Again, a phenomenal, impressive resume. 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.180 He is with the most prestigious unit within the FBI. 0:08:49.820 --> 0:08:53.640 He is a doctor. He's a forensic psychiatrist, Gregory Satoff. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.020 And yes, gray hair. He looked the part. He has 0:08:57.140 --> 0:09:00.429 decades of experience. He treats prisoners. And to your point, 0:09:00.770 --> 0:09:03.490 when Reddington asked him how many women he has treated 0:09:03.510 --> 0:09:07.580 with postpartum psychosis, he said two or three women. And 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.339 then he went over the cases, one in the 1980s 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:12.079 and one in the 1990s. 0:09:12.100 --> 0:09:14.340 One was both teens, were they? 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:14.520 Yes. 0:09:14.540 --> 0:09:15.520 Very, very young women. 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.690 18 and I believe early 20s. And he talked about 0:09:18.730 --> 0:09:23.570 how they were treated and then ultimately recovered. But this 0:09:23.770 --> 0:09:29.510 was striking after you heard him testify for the prosecution. 0:09:29.580 --> 0:09:33.160 Their expert hasn't treated a woman like this in 40 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.700 plus years. And he's the expert. This is the best 0:09:36.740 --> 0:09:37.140 you got, huh? 0:09:37.690 --> 0:09:42.400 And he told jurors that he believed, and he was very, 0:09:42.540 --> 0:09:46.900 very descriptive, but also he kept things simple. And in 0:09:46.940 --> 0:09:50.220 layman's terms, he said it exactly the way jurors probably 0:09:50.260 --> 0:09:52.640 needed to hear it to fully understand it. He said, 0:09:52.750 --> 0:09:57.390 it is possible and common, common for people to engage 0:09:57.490 --> 0:10:01.440 in behaviors to avoid to do what a command hallucination 0:10:01.540 --> 0:10:05.170 is saying. So he's saying someone experiencing psychosis can still 0:10:05.290 --> 0:10:08.260 identify right and wrong. And he said, Lindsay Clancy had 0:10:08.300 --> 0:10:11.060 the capacity to appreciate right from wrong. He was saying 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.660 even if she were, and he didn't believe she was, 0:10:14.090 --> 0:10:17.309 in a state of psychosis, that doesn't absolve her from 0:10:17.429 --> 0:10:20.970 knowing right from wrong. I don't remember anyone testifying to 0:10:21.010 --> 0:10:21.990 that up until him. 0:10:22.450 --> 0:10:24.829 Okay, so my next question, or I would have raised 0:10:24.890 --> 0:10:29.400 my hands, like when would you say someone is not 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.020 criminally responsible? He just said she's messed up in every 0:10:33.059 --> 0:10:36.400 way that they're saying she's messed up. However, I'm concluding 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.170 that that doesn't mean she's not criminally responsible. I need 0:10:40.190 --> 0:10:41.870 somebody to explain to me, what's the line? 0:10:42.429 --> 0:10:43.910 I don't know what the line is, but he did 0:10:43.950 --> 0:10:48.400 get specific about saying that this voice, this command hallucination 0:10:48.460 --> 0:10:55.110 that she says she heard, she was still able to personally, 0:10:55.140 --> 0:10:58.660 because he said the voice didn't give her instructions. right? 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.179 The voice just said, you know, kill the children while 0:11:01.220 --> 0:11:03.000 you still can. Now is your chance. Now is your 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.780 last chance. He said, she's the one who made the 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.870 specific decisions on how to kill her children, what to 0:11:10.210 --> 0:11:13.090 use to kill her children, where to kill her children, 0:11:13.380 --> 0:11:15.810 and then how to kill herself. And then in the 0:11:15.850 --> 0:11:18.309 middle of all of this, return a phone call to 0:11:18.370 --> 0:11:22.350 her husband, Patrick. And this all happened within like 18 minutes. 0:11:22.390 --> 0:11:24.610 And he just felt like all of those things, when 0:11:24.650 --> 0:11:28.170 you lay it out like that, proves that she was 0:11:28.890 --> 0:11:31.829 able to make decisions, and she was making them on 0:11:31.870 --> 0:11:34.150 her own beyond this voice. 0:11:34.410 --> 0:11:38.660 So then my next question is, is she only or 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.720 can she only not be criminally responsible if the voice 0:11:43.100 --> 0:11:46.120 was very specific in its instructions? Is that what that means? 0:11:46.140 --> 0:11:47.900 It sounds like that's what he's saying, that if the 0:11:47.940 --> 0:11:53.290 voice was saying, now grab the exercise band. I don't 0:11:53.330 --> 0:11:55.250 know how these things work, but that was what he 0:11:55.309 --> 0:11:57.510 seemed to imply, that because the voice was just giving 0:11:57.550 --> 0:12:01.420 her a general instruction instruction or command. And she made 0:12:01.490 --> 0:12:04.250 all of these very specific choices in a very small 0:12:04.290 --> 0:12:06.390 window of time that she planned out ahead of time. 0:12:07.350 --> 0:12:11.929 He felt like that proved that she was in command 0:12:12.170 --> 0:12:17.130 of her body and making choices, knowing full well that 0:12:17.230 --> 0:12:18.990 what she was doing was illegal. 0:12:19.590 --> 0:12:22.540 This is, it's striking because I've been diving into the 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.060 Andrea case. She had an hour window. She waited for 0:12:26.100 --> 0:12:28.339 her husband to leave. And someone else was coming to 0:12:28.380 --> 0:12:30.760 the house in an hour. She had an hour to 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:32.840 do everything she needed. She was putting things in place. 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:38.689 She was ruled insane. The similarities are so striking, baby. 0:12:40.030 --> 0:12:42.689 But yes, that thing now, if these jurors go back 0:12:42.730 --> 0:12:44.070 and read up on the Andrea Yates case. 0:12:44.530 --> 0:12:45.630 I don't know if they'd be allowed to. 0:12:45.630 --> 0:12:46.290 I don't think they're allowed to. 0:12:46.290 --> 0:12:48.530 I don't think they would because this would have to be, yes. 0:12:48.550 --> 0:12:51.870 This would impact them. Seeing what that, those cases are 0:12:52.050 --> 0:12:54.980 so similar. And we see the result of what happened 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:56.520 with Yates. Oh my goodness, yes. 0:12:56.750 --> 0:12:59.790 You know, and it's just so interesting because upon cross-examination, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:04.660 Kevin Reddington was... obviously pushing the you've only treated two 0:13:04.700 --> 0:13:07.439 or three patients. He also has done this with all 0:13:07.660 --> 0:13:10.700 of the witnesses for the prosecution, having them lay out 0:13:10.780 --> 0:13:14.569 how they're paid, how they're compensated by the government to 0:13:14.610 --> 0:13:20.430 testify for the prosecution, thereby whittling away at least their impartiality. 0:13:20.970 --> 0:13:23.550 And then really driving home this point, and I do 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.890 think this for a juror from an emotional standpoint and 0:13:26.910 --> 0:13:29.470 just even a logical one. This is a woman who 0:13:29.530 --> 0:13:33.109 called a suicide hotline twice, who repeatedly begged and asked 0:13:33.150 --> 0:13:35.829 for help, and she wasn't given help because she didn't 0:13:35.890 --> 0:13:39.329 have a plan to commit suicide. There are these specific 0:13:39.390 --> 0:13:42.030 things that if you had said this, then we would 0:13:42.050 --> 0:13:44.030 have given you help. Or if you had come to 0:13:44.170 --> 0:13:46.320 us a little earlier, we would have been able to 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.020 designate you postpartum. 0:13:48.220 --> 0:13:50.300 Have you heard this before? I've never in my life 0:13:50.460 --> 0:13:54.200 heard that you're limited in how much help You might 0:13:54.300 --> 0:13:58.130 get from a suicide hotline or a counselor. It's a 0:13:58.210 --> 0:14:00.429 big deal. You need to have a plan before they 0:14:00.470 --> 0:14:02.170 almost take you completely seriously. 0:14:02.190 --> 0:14:04.449 Yeah, you have to tell them how you think you're 0:14:04.490 --> 0:14:08.370 going to kill yourself and when. I didn't know that 0:14:08.410 --> 0:14:11.730 that was part of their, I guess, their mode of 0:14:11.790 --> 0:14:15.310 operation when they basically decide what the action needs to be. 0:14:16.250 --> 0:14:19.310 or not be in a certain case. But obviously the 0:14:19.370 --> 0:14:21.730 biggest moment for him at the end was that when 0:14:21.790 --> 0:14:29.890 Reddington read the prosecution's opening statement, he got the witness, Dr. Satov, 0:14:29.950 --> 0:14:32.910 to say, I think that statement you read really minimizes 0:14:33.010 --> 0:14:35.610 what she was going through. So it did show that 0:14:35.630 --> 0:14:39.550 the prosecution is overreaching, or at least it did. That 0:14:39.650 --> 0:14:42.250 is what I believe jurors would take away from that 0:14:42.390 --> 0:14:43.950 last moment of testimony. 0:14:44.370 --> 0:14:48.690 So that last moment, we might have said that thing 0:14:49.830 --> 0:14:53.330 after the prosecution opening statement. We kept saying, they don't 0:14:53.410 --> 0:14:56.730 seem to give any room for her being ill. Like, 0:14:56.790 --> 0:14:58.750 it's fine if you don't think she was responsible, but 0:14:58.830 --> 0:15:02.550 their entire time is setting up and building a narrative 0:15:02.850 --> 0:15:04.930 that flies in the face of the narrative of everybody 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:09.060 knew this woman. They never just acknowledged that, you know what? Yeah, 0:15:09.100 --> 0:15:12.119 she was sick. Yeah, she had struggles. Yeah, we get it. 0:15:12.700 --> 0:15:15.620 The whole time, it was that cold, dismissive, yeah, she 0:15:15.660 --> 0:15:18.740 was calculated, she was this And their own guy, the 0:15:18.820 --> 0:15:22.640 last thing he says on the cross-examination is, yeah, prosecution's 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.580 probably overreaching on that a little bit. 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.820 And that was huge because this was a prosecution witness, yes, 0:15:28.900 --> 0:15:31.910 who was paid, who had said everything he had just 0:15:31.970 --> 0:15:37.040 said and then acknowledged, yeah, the prosecution. might be overreaching. 0:15:37.100 --> 0:15:38.900 So when we come back, we're going to talk about 0:15:38.980 --> 0:15:42.290 why this manslaughter option for the jury is such a 0:15:42.300 --> 0:15:46.230 big deal, what type of penalty she could be facing 0:15:46.490 --> 0:15:51.110 if they come back with any of five different verdicts, 0:15:51.500 --> 0:16:04.850 and what we're expecting this morning in Closing Arguments. Welcome back, everyone, 0:16:04.910 --> 0:16:07.370 to Amy and TJ. What a big day in the 0:16:07.430 --> 0:16:11.070 Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial because, yes, we're going to 0:16:11.110 --> 0:16:17.030 hear first from the attorneys. They will give their closing arguments. 0:16:17.910 --> 0:16:19.530 The judge is going to give them each an hour, 0:16:19.590 --> 0:16:22.430 but we already heard from Kevin Reddington, I can get 0:16:22.460 --> 0:16:25.340 this done quickly. I only need 30 minutes. The prosecution 0:16:25.380 --> 0:16:28.700 said they would need an hour, so let's assume 90 minutes. 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:30.460 What do you make of that? It only needs 30. 0:16:30.460 --> 0:16:32.140 Yeah, I was surprised by that. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.560 Eh, I can wrap this up. That means he's going 0:16:34.580 --> 0:16:36.820 to be effective. He's not going to wax poetic. He's 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.030 not going to go on and on. He's going to 0:16:38.070 --> 0:16:40.310 be specific. Remember this. Think about this. 0:16:40.530 --> 0:16:43.750 And the jury might appreciate that. And actually, I think 0:16:43.770 --> 0:16:46.170 when you say less, when they've been, look, they have 0:16:46.250 --> 0:16:51.090 had to absorb, like I said, at the top of this, 0:16:51.090 --> 0:16:53.960 85 witnesses, five weeks of testimony. That is a lot. 0:16:54.270 --> 0:16:56.920 So maybe even keeping it succinct and to the point 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:02.060 with maximum effect, that will actually stay with the jurors 0:17:02.140 --> 0:17:04.960 than going on this long, meandering, hour-long. 0:17:05.420 --> 0:17:05.900 I get that. 0:17:05.940 --> 0:17:07.619 That's an effective strategy. 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:08.350 Defense goes first, right? 0:17:08.369 --> 0:17:10.190 I was going to ask, but I do believe, yes, 0:17:10.230 --> 0:17:13.949 the defense goes first. The prosecution gets to have the 0:17:13.990 --> 0:17:16.870 last word. But the jurors are going to now have 0:17:16.930 --> 0:17:21.250 five options. First-degree murder. which is premeditated or extreme atrocity 0:17:21.290 --> 0:17:24.790 or cruelty. And that would mean a mandatory life in 0:17:24.850 --> 0:17:28.430 prison sentence without the possibility of parole. They could also 0:17:28.510 --> 0:17:31.909 find her guilty of second degree murder, which is extreme 0:17:31.950 --> 0:17:36.490 recklessness without premeditation. That in the state of Massachusetts is 0:17:36.570 --> 0:17:39.770 also a mandatory life in prison sentence, but you would 0:17:39.790 --> 0:17:43.970 be eligible for parole within 15 to 25 years. They 0:17:44.010 --> 0:17:46.810 now have this manslaughter verdict that they can come to, 0:17:46.869 --> 0:17:50.050 which is suffering from mental illness, but not enough to 0:17:50.130 --> 0:17:53.359 absolve her of responsibility, that could be up to 20 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.659 years in state prison. Every state's different. That's Massachusetts. So 0:17:57.700 --> 0:18:01.460 it could be the minimum could be whatever the judge chooses, 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.379 but up to 20 years. 0:18:03.619 --> 0:18:05.250 So she could go to prison. She would have to 0:18:05.290 --> 0:18:07.630 still get mental health treatment, correct? But if they just 0:18:07.670 --> 0:18:10.170 find her guilty... I mean, she's not going to a 0:18:10.170 --> 0:18:11.290 state institution. 0:18:11.369 --> 0:18:15.949 She's going to prison with manslaughter, I believe. That's what 0:18:16.130 --> 0:18:17.840 the state of Massachusetts, I looked it up. 0:18:17.940 --> 0:18:23.560 But then what, right? Doesn't she need continued mental health treatment? 0:18:23.700 --> 0:18:24.120 Is that correct? 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.239 I would imagine so, yes. And then the fourth one, 0:18:27.340 --> 0:18:29.699 which is what the defense is asking for, not guilty 0:18:29.740 --> 0:18:33.969 by reason of lack of criminal responsibility, backslash insanity. And 0:18:34.050 --> 0:18:37.239 that would mean no prison time whatsoever for, but she 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.680 could be committed to a psychiatric facility. So that's what 0:18:41.780 --> 0:18:42.280 that charge. 0:18:42.300 --> 0:18:43.660 And then it would be indefinite, right? 0:18:43.820 --> 0:18:46.420 It would be indefinite. And I think based on her 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:50.720 doctor's recommendations and then they could, it doesn't seem likely 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.810 or even possible. They could just flat out, give her 0:18:52.850 --> 0:18:56.790 a not guilty verdict, a complete acquittal. But even the, 0:18:57.170 --> 0:19:01.660 even the defense itself is acknowledging she killed her kids. So, yes, 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.359 it's an option, but highly, almost impossible. It's not going 0:19:05.380 --> 0:19:09.360 to happen. But that would mean she could literally roll 0:19:09.420 --> 0:19:11.240 out of there. Yeah, without any sort of. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.480 We don't mean to be cute. She's literally in a wheelchair. 0:19:13.540 --> 0:19:15.879 So she would be. But no, we don't. Nobody is 0:19:15.940 --> 0:19:19.040 expecting that. And how long, babe? I mean, the jury 0:19:19.060 --> 0:19:22.479 is going to have this trial today, Thursday, got all 0:19:22.500 --> 0:19:26.139 day tomorrow. They'll have maybe half a day today. Is 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:27.860 he going to tell them? You know what? Judges give 0:19:27.900 --> 0:19:29.940 them the option sometimes. Do you want to go home early? 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:30.719 You want to stay a little late? 0:19:31.330 --> 0:19:33.530 Oh, they're going to stay and deliberate. There's no way 0:19:33.550 --> 0:19:35.320 they want to push this up on a Friday. I mean, 0:19:35.340 --> 0:19:37.659 if they can at least get started. Wouldn't you also, 0:19:37.740 --> 0:19:40.280 as a juror, just be desperate to know what your 0:19:40.340 --> 0:19:42.880 fellow jurors are thinking? You've been sitting there the whole time. 0:19:42.900 --> 0:19:44.699 You're not allowed to speak about the case. You're not 0:19:44.740 --> 0:19:47.590 allowed to indicate how you feel. And now for the 0:19:47.690 --> 0:19:51.200 first time, you get to see if... what you're thinking 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.540 and what you're feeling aligns in any way with any 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:55.380 of the other jurors. 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.119 You know, sequester me, baby. We're going to sit here 0:19:58.140 --> 0:19:59.540 and we're going to work this out through the night. 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.850 We ain't going home. Let's talk this through. Really, let's 0:20:02.890 --> 0:20:03.930 get our work done. 0:20:03.970 --> 0:20:06.050 I would not want to be on a jury with you. 0:20:07.710 --> 0:20:10.179 First of all, you'd be the foreman. And then, yeah, 0:20:10.220 --> 0:20:10.820 you would, what. 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.340 Are you talking about? I'll probably be elected. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:17.600 You're a natural born leader, but then to someone to 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.209 persuade you to think other than what you already think, I, 0:20:20.250 --> 0:20:22.030 that would be an impossible task. 0:20:22.210 --> 0:20:25.270 I listen, I, you know, I listen, I'm open to 0:20:25.350 --> 0:20:28.629 other people's ideas. I'm open to being convinced of things. 0:20:29.130 --> 0:20:32.159 I have no problem. I am. And I'm not, I 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.700 feel a certain way. I am very open. I want 0:20:34.740 --> 0:20:38.119 to hear other people make arguments. that make me go, oh, 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.780 I didn't consider that. Oh, that makes sense. Just like 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.440 the psychiatrist, the last witness. Oh, I didn't think about 0:20:43.460 --> 0:20:45.740 it that way, the way he just put it. That's okay. 0:20:46.060 --> 0:20:47.979 That is okay. But man, what is this jury going 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:48.300 to do? 0:20:49.460 --> 0:20:51.590 This will be fascinating. 0:20:51.590 --> 0:20:54.910 9 a.m., they rarely start on time. But let's see, 0:20:54.930 --> 0:20:57.310 it goes exactly the way it's supposed to go. Closings 0:20:57.390 --> 0:21:00.330 should be done by 11. Yes. They've been taking morning 0:21:00.350 --> 0:21:04.060 breaks at 11 and coming back at 11.30-ish. When do 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.010 they start with the jury instructions? He has to read 0:21:06.090 --> 0:21:08.129 every word, so he could be done 30 minutes or 0:21:08.150 --> 0:21:10.899