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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours we

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Speaker 1: learned there is a move of foot for the so

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Speaker 1: called madam of Jeffrey Epstein, known child sex trafficker, to

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Speaker 1: get sprung from jail. That's right, She says, she is

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Speaker 1: being humiliated by wearing jail clothing and they're not letting

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Speaker 1: her adhere to her vegan diet. Crime Stories with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace campaign is underway to get Gilaine Maxwell out of jail.

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Speaker 1: Operation GGO Get Gelayne Out was started by family friend

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Speaker 1: Brian Bashram. He claims that Maxwell's human rights are being violated,

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Speaker 1: that she is forced to wear paper clothing with no

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Speaker 1: broad due to the risk of suicide. He also claims

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Speaker 1: that sent her incarceration, Maxwell, a vegan, has dropped twenty

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Speaker 1: five pounds due to improper diet. Basham claims that when

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Speaker 1: Maxwell complained about losing so much weight, prison officials removed

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Speaker 1: her skills to stop her from weighing herself. He says

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Speaker 1: that prison guards have stopped talking to Maxwell while she

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Speaker 1: spends her days isolated in a nine foot by seven

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Speaker 1: foot cell. Basham says that isolation is being extended to

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Speaker 1: her mail as well. He claims that family letters are

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Speaker 1: being vindictively not given to her. Brian Bashram says he

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Speaker 1: finds an appalling that Maxwell was still in custody when

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Speaker 1: other sex offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby were

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Speaker 1: granted bail. Maxwell has denied all six counts relating to

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Speaker 1: child sex trafficking, procurement, and perjury. You're hearing our friend

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Speaker 1: Dave Mack from Crime online dot com. Maybe it has

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Speaker 1: something to do with Weinstein's victims being adult as a

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Speaker 1: those to Epstein and Gil and Maxwell's alleged victims being

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Speaker 1: children at the time they were sex traffic. Again. I'm

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us this as Operation GGO get Gill and Maxwell

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Speaker 1: out of jail is underway, Will it happen? Joining me

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Speaker 1: an I'll star panel to break you down and put

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Speaker 1: it back together again. First of all, high profile lawyer

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Speaker 1: out of Seattle joining me, Trial lawyer Ann Bremner, former

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Speaker 1: prosecutor also with me, and renowned New York psychologists joining

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Speaker 1: me from Manhattan. Karen Start at Karen Stark dot com.

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Speaker 1: That's Karen with a se former special agent with the FBI.

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Speaker 1: Screen writer on Criminal Minds, Bobby Chicone also with me

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Speaker 1: Melissa Crown, an investigative journalist and author. Melissa is so

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Speaker 1: great to have you with us. Melissa also the author

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Speaker 1: of a brand new book about Epstein and an upcoming

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Speaker 1: Epstein book called Epstein Ink. Well, Lissa Cronin, what do

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Speaker 1: you make of the news that there is a movement

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Speaker 1: underfoot to have Gill and Maxwell sprung from jail? So

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Speaker 1: this man, Brian Bosham said that he finds it appalling

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Speaker 1: how she's being treated in prison, and anyone who knows

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Speaker 1: anything about this case finds it appalling that someone would

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Speaker 1: think there was any chance this woman should be released.

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Speaker 1: It's just another example of how delusional she is. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Epstein himself was not released on bond with all of

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Speaker 1: the claims made against him. She's part and parcel of

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Speaker 1: all those claims. I think part of it has to

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Speaker 1: do with that sweetheart deal he got down in Palm

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Speaker 1: Beach when he basically had house or rest for part

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Speaker 1: of the day and could go in and out of

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Speaker 1: the jail at his will. There was a parade of

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Speaker 1: young girls going in and out of his office when

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Speaker 1: he was on day passes from the jail. So I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that they're concerned Gill and Maxwell will either take

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Speaker 1: off or end up dead if she is released. What

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Speaker 1: do you make of her claims that she is being

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Speaker 1: let me just say, single out for bad treatment. Like

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Speaker 1: I said before, I think she's totally delusional because she

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Speaker 1: just has to realize that she might have gotten away

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Speaker 1: with it for years so far, but now the hand

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Speaker 1: of justice has come down on her and she's not

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Speaker 1: getting away with it. She's not going to get special treatment,

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Speaker 1: she's not going to get her contour and her vegan diet.

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Speaker 1: She just has to wake up to the reality that

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Speaker 1: her time has come and she's going to have to

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Speaker 1: pay for what she did. What do you who is

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Speaker 1: Brian Besham. I only know that he is a family

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Speaker 1: friend of Gil and Maxwell, who is the one reporting

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Speaker 1: from behind jail house walls that she has lost so

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Speaker 1: much weight that her skills were taken away. I've got

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Speaker 1: news for everybody. I don't think inmates have scales in

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Speaker 1: their jail cells. That's a lot of bs. That's a

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Speaker 1: technical legal term. But I don't think that you and Bremner.

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Speaker 1: You're the high profile lawyer out of Seattle. I have

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Speaker 1: never once in all the jails I've ever been in

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Speaker 1: seen an inmate with a set of scales, great minds,

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Speaker 1: single ag nancy. That's the first thing I thought. It

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Speaker 1: was like, I've never heard of an inmate having skills

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Speaker 1: in their cell and then having them taken away because

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Speaker 1: they're losing weight. I mean that just isnering true. And

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Speaker 1: if it's true, it's the first what a big fat lie?

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Speaker 1: Now isn't it true? And Bremner a former prosecutor but

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Speaker 1: now civil and defense lawyer, isn't it true? And then

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Speaker 1: had the close of every felony case, the jury is

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Speaker 1: instructed by the judge that when a person, a witness,

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Speaker 1: being a defendant, a cop, doesn't matter, is caught lying

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Speaker 1: under oath, even if it's about something small, the jury

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Speaker 1: will then have the decision the opportunity if they wish

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Speaker 1: to discount all that witnesses testimony in toto in total,

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Speaker 1: if that witness is caught lying. Would you agree or

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Speaker 1: disagree that that is the state of the law. I

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Speaker 1: agree completely, it's false and one false and all. It's

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Speaker 1: the Latin term I think is falsest and union falsest employm. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're up in the game throwing your Latin phrase it's

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Speaker 1: at me. So let me break it down. If this

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Speaker 1: is being reported by this so called family friend that

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Speaker 1: her scale has been taken out of her jail, so

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Speaker 1: there is no way in Hubl an inmate and a

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Speaker 1: high security CI Correctional institute is going to have a scale.

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Speaker 1: It'll take about a New York minute for one of

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Speaker 1: those inmates to pick that up and bash a warden,

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Speaker 1: a trustee or another inmate right in the skull and

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Speaker 1: kill them right there with the scales. Okay, So that's BS.

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Speaker 1: And if he's lying about that, or someone is lying

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Speaker 1: about that, then why should I believe any of this? BS? No,

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Speaker 1: I completely agree. I'm not going to use the line again.

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Speaker 1: But you can't believe anything they say. I mean, that

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Speaker 1: is so preposterous. I mean, and she can't wear a

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Speaker 1: broad but she can have a scale. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't get it. So we're also here, you know here

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Speaker 1: because Bobby count I knew that wouldn't take long. Go ahead, Bobby,

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Speaker 1: I mean this so called I mean, the so called friends,

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Speaker 1: family friend that he's being described. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: he's also been distribed as a PR professional, so I

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Speaker 1: think that he might be one of these crisis management

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Speaker 1: guys that's brought in to start this campaign, and they're

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Speaker 1: calling it a campaign as it's a grassroots movement of

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Speaker 1: people that want her out, when in all probability, she's

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Speaker 1: paying for this service. She's paying probably for this family

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Speaker 1: friends pr professional to kind of start this whole movement

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Speaker 1: if you will, And I don't think there's a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of people behind this movement. Well you know, let

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Speaker 1: me you're right number one. Number two question back to

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Speaker 1: you and everybody pipe in if you know the answer.

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Speaker 1: All I believe that when you have a religious preference

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Speaker 1: behind bars, that in especially federal jails, that is respected.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So you know, whether you're Jewish or am

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Speaker 1: I hearing Karen Stark? Yes, you are, Okay, Karen Stark says,

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Speaker 1: when were you in a CI Curious? I did happen

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Speaker 1: to know somebody who's in federal prison, who was in

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Speaker 1: federal prison? And they respect your religious beliefs if you

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Speaker 1: have if you're if you're Orthodox Jewish, then you are

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Speaker 1: allowed to, you know, not pay attention to the worlds

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Speaker 1: on Saturday. You don't get released, but they do respect that.

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Speaker 1: They respect the fact that you need kosher food things

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Speaker 1: like that, which makes it all the more difficult for

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Speaker 1: me to believe that her v Of course, now it's

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Speaker 1: not a religion being vegan, So therein may lay the

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Speaker 1: difference time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, right now there

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Speaker 1: is a move of foot to get Gillan Maxwell released

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Speaker 1: from behind bars, but we've already caught her spokesperson, if

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Speaker 1: that's who started it. In one line regarding her life

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Speaker 1: behind bars, she is saying that she is being single

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Speaker 1: out and because of vindictive treatment is being heaped upon her.

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Speaker 1: Back to Melissa crona investigative journalists who has already written

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Speaker 1: one book Jeffrey Epstein Dead Men, No Tells, and she

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Speaker 1: has an upcoming book, Epstein Inc. Coming out I believe

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Speaker 1: in November. Melissa, what is that the crux of the

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Speaker 1: movement to get this alleged child sex trafficker out from

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Speaker 1: behind bars? Nancy, It's very important for everyone to understand that,

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Speaker 1: as the said, this is not a family friend. This

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Speaker 1: is a pr professional that has been working for Gawaine

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Speaker 1: for more than ten years. He was actually brought in

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Speaker 1: as a third party on the juffre versus Maxwell lawsuits

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Speaker 1: years ago because the attorneys found emails between Gawayne and

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Speaker 1: this PR company on which he was sced. Now the

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Speaker 1: PR company is called Acuity Reputation and they have offices

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Speaker 1: in London also in Moscow. The founder is on the

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Speaker 1: advisory board of the Moscow International Finance Committee. So that's

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Speaker 1: the whole other threads of people might want to pull

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Speaker 1: on in the coming weeks, But I think it's just

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Speaker 1: a distraction technique. The fact is that day after day,

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Speaker 1: week after weeks, more victims come forward to tell their stories,

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Speaker 1: and she's not going to be able to escape justice

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Speaker 1: this time. Guys. Take a listen to our friend Mola

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Speaker 1: Lingy at CBS News. Listen. She had his money, he

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Speaker 1: had her contacts. They made a great group that way.

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Speaker 1: But Glynn was much more snipe and smart than Apteine

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Speaker 1: ever was. At one point during the deposition, Jeuphrase attorney

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Speaker 1: Cigarette McCauley appeared to ask Maxwell about the now infamous

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Speaker 1: picture of Guffray and the UK's Prince Andrew. Guffray says

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Speaker 1: she had sex with the Prince at Maxwell's London home

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Speaker 1: that night. The Prince has repeatedly denied Juphrase allegations, and

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Speaker 1: Maxwell called you phrase account of the incident an obvious lie.

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Speaker 1: In the deposition, Maxwell said, guy characterized things took place

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Speaker 1: in my bathroom and the bathtub itself the tub is

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Speaker 1: too small for any type of activity whatsoever. Okay, let

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Speaker 1: me understand this. She is claiming that Virginia Roberts Jeffrey's

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Speaker 1: statements are falls because her gilla Maxwell's tub is not

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Speaker 1: big enough to have sex in. Really, because I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure if people can have sex in the bathroom on

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Speaker 1: a plane, they can do it in a bathtub. I

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Speaker 1: don't care how big the bathtub or how small the

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Speaker 1: bathtub is. I mean, I'm not an engineer from Georgia

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Speaker 1: Tech or MT, but I can figure that much out.

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Speaker 1: You know, It's very interesting. Bobby Chacone joining me, former

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Speaker 1: special agent FBI, screenwriter Criminal minds what my longtime friend

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Speaker 1: Ricky Kleman over at CBS is saying. Maxwell can't just

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Speaker 1: say Virginia Jeffries is lying, lying, she's lying. You've got

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Speaker 1: to come up with more than that and the size

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Speaker 1: of your bathtub, because there are multiple young girls, not

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Speaker 1: just Virginia Jeffries. That's saying the same thing. Maxwell recruited

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Speaker 1: them sometimes from near the playground at the middle school

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Speaker 1: to give Epstein massages which turned sexual. It's more than

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Speaker 1: just Virginia Jeffries, Bobby Chicone, that's right, Nancy, And actually

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Speaker 1: I did depend Georgia Tech, so I am one of

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Speaker 1: those people who referred to But you know you're right

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Speaker 1: when they can't attack, you know, the basic facts of

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Speaker 1: the case. When you have so many victims coming was

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Speaker 1: telling very similar stories about the recruitment, about the behavior

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Speaker 1: that they were subjected to, you have to start nit

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Speaker 1: picking at different things. That's why they want the names

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Speaker 1: of the victims now publish, so they can harass them.

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Speaker 1: This will be very hostile, very aggressive defense team that

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Speaker 1: Maxwell has. You can see it as far back as

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Speaker 1: this deposition that she gave, how hostile she is, and

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Speaker 1: you can see through their motions now how hostile they're

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Speaker 1: being towards the victims. They have to go after the

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Speaker 1: victims because it's the only thing they have, because they

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Speaker 1: can't attack the facts. But it's still going to be

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Speaker 1: a very difficult task. Maybe one victim can be impeached,

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Speaker 1: but when you've got multiple victims separated in time and space,

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Speaker 1: all saying the same thing, it's going to be much

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Speaker 1: more difficult to discredit them. Although it happened in the

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson case, Am Bremner, all the boy victims were

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Speaker 1: all discredited and they were generally saying the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Am Bremner, That's exactly what happened. Nancy and I saw

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Speaker 1: it front row seat and that trial. You and I

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Speaker 1: covered that every day, and that's exactly what happened. There

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Speaker 1: were multiple victims they said the same thing. There was

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Speaker 1: definitely a pattern and it came in with I don't

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Speaker 1: remember how many boys now, but quite a few, and

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Speaker 1: they were not believed. Apparently, guys. Will all the victims

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Speaker 1: be attacked a trial? Will there be a trial, because

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Speaker 1: right now Gil and Maxwell's supporters are starting a movement

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Speaker 1: to get Gil and Maxwell out of jail, the g

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Speaker 1: Oo movement. If she gets out to you, Melissa Crona,

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Speaker 1: an investigative journalist. Gil and Maxwell has three passports that

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Speaker 1: I know of. She I think has remarried. All that's

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Speaker 1: being kept under wraps. She has money, power and privilege

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Speaker 1: at her fingertips and is more than capable of getting

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Speaker 1: a private plane out of here and never coming back.

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Speaker 1: It's true, she's not just capable of finding a private plane.

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Speaker 1: She's capable of flying it herself. She was actually a

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Speaker 1: helicopter pilot for Jeffrey Epstein and buried the victims back

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Speaker 1: and forth from the island. But it's true. She is

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest light risks that I've ever seen

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Speaker 1: or heard of in my entire journalistic career because she

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Speaker 1: doesn't just have money and connections herself, her entire family does.

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Speaker 1: She has seven living siblings, and two of them her sisters,

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Speaker 1: Isabelle and Christine. We're actually one of the early founders

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Speaker 1: of that, one of the first search engines, so they

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Speaker 1: have times of money. They're millionaires in themselves. She has

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Speaker 1: a French passport, she's born in France, and basically the

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Speaker 1: options are endless for her, and she actually gets out

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Speaker 1: of prison. So I think everyone involved in this case

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Speaker 1: knows that that can't happen. You know, an Bremer, a

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Speaker 1: high profile defense attorney out of Seattle. He threw some

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Speaker 1: lat amy a few moments ago. I'm going to throw

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Speaker 1: something back at you, so put on your Mit look

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Speaker 1: strack record. Remember how long we played Where's Waldo with

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Speaker 1: Gil and Maxwell. First she was at an in and

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Speaker 1: out burger in la that was stead. Then she was

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Speaker 1: in Paris, then she was here, then she was there

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Speaker 1: until she's finally located in a multimillion dollar home, a

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Speaker 1: remote home in New England. So since we already know

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Speaker 1: that she plays high and seek with law enforcement, why

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Speaker 1: would anybody let her out on bond? Well, actually, the statute, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this is what I don't care. If it's a sex

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Speaker 1: offense involving children under federal law, there's no bail. That's

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Speaker 1: what happened to Epstein. That's why he was sitting in

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Speaker 1: jail with no bail. But I mean, having said that,

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Speaker 1: in terms of her likelihood of flight, you know, the

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Speaker 1: question is when when they had a warrant out for her,

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Speaker 1: not a question of where she was before that. So

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Speaker 1: she's in jail now, that's for sure, and she's trying

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Speaker 1: to get out with all these excuses and maybe they'll work.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, this is a pr campaign,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty basis. Guys. We were talking about the fact

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Speaker 1: that Jeffrey Epstein's so called Madam I E Is Pimp

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Speaker 1: is part of a movement now to be released from

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Speaker 1: behind bars. She claims that the jealous not respecting her

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Speaker 1: vegan diet, that she cannot wear clothes she wants to wear,

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Speaker 1: that she has lost weight, and that her scales have

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Speaker 1: been taken out of her jail cell. Okay, good luck

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Speaker 1: with all of that, because that's not going to help

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Speaker 1: you with bond. As a matter of fact, it may

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Speaker 1: bite you in the net at trial if a jury

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Speaker 1: were to hear any of this. I also have reason

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Speaker 1: to suspect once the cronin this family friend Mishaum also

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Speaker 1: says that she Max was unable to talk to sisters

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Speaker 1: and their letters are being withheld from her. So how

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Speaker 1: did he get in and learn all this? I have

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Speaker 1: no idea, but I would probably guess that he's working

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Speaker 1: with the sisters and probably they're the ones paying him.

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Speaker 1: And if it is actually true that their letters are

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Speaker 1: being restricted from her, that's good they should be because

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Speaker 1: anyone involved with this please knows that the sisters were

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Speaker 1: involved in helping keep Gayne on the run. There were

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Speaker 1: photographs of her sisters. I think it was visiting the

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Speaker 1: Massachusetts home where she had been hiding out with her

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Speaker 1: supposed husband, Scott Burglerson. These women are very mysterious figures

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Speaker 1: in the case, but all of the indications that we've

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Speaker 1: seen suggests that their communications probably should be limited with Gawayne,

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Speaker 1: and it's just one of the many things that she's

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Speaker 1: going to have to deal with being imposed time stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys are talking about gil and Maxwell

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Speaker 1: behind bars and a following the hills, following on the

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Speaker 1: hills of the release of a four hundred plus page

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Speaker 1: sworn deposition by Gill and Maxwell now to get her

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Speaker 1: out from behind bars. Whoever Besham is the family friend.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's a lawyer because an Bremner, as

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Speaker 1: you pointed out, he says he finds it quote appalling

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Speaker 1: Gill and Maxwell still in custody, when other convicted sex

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Speaker 1: offenders such as Harvey Wine, standing Bill Cosby or granted bail.

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Speaker 1: That's because they're victims were not children. They're alleged victims

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Speaker 1: were not children, as is in this case exactly. And

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Speaker 1: that's why I kept thinking, this can't be a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: getting back to what the statute says too. If there's

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Speaker 1: child victims, no Bill, that's the appropriate decision by a

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Speaker 1: judge at a bond hearing, no Bill. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know why he's going off in this other tangent that

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Speaker 1: would never be persuasive in my opinion to a judge,

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Speaker 1: I mean the other part of it is on the

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Speaker 1: flight risk. That was apparently the grounds for which she

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Speaker 1: was helped flight risk. You're right. With all the money,

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Speaker 1: the multiple passports and connections and multiple jurisdictions overseas, she

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Speaker 1: is a flight risk, and as Melissa Crowin has pointed out,

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Speaker 1: she knows how to fly a plane. Guys, take a

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Speaker 1: listen again to our friends at CBS News Our Cut seven,

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Speaker 1: Galaine Maxwell says she knew Jeffrey Epstein was a registered

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Speaker 1: sex offender. When asked if she recruited girls on Epstein's behalf,

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Speaker 1: she said I don't recruit anybody and appeared disgusted, saying

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Speaker 1: I resent and despise the word recruit. Throughout the testimony,

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Speaker 1: Maxwell dodged questions about Epstein's alleged abuse of underaged girls

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Speaker 1: and repeatedly called Epstein accuser Virginia Juffrey a liar. Maxwell,

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Speaker 1: defending herself, said I can't think of anything I have

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Speaker 1: done that is illegal. While being questioned about her initial

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Speaker 1: meeting with Eufray, Maxwell's anger appeared to boil over, and

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Speaker 1: she harshly pounded the table, later apologizing for the behavior.

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Speaker 1: Giuffrey alleges Epstein and Maxwell sexually abused her when she

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Speaker 1: was underage and lent her out to their friends. In

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Speaker 1: a July interview with CBS This Morning, Jeffrey said Epstein

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Speaker 1: was a sick pedophile, but Maxwell was the mastermind. She

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Speaker 1: is even worse than Epstein. She put it this way.

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Speaker 1: Epstein was Pinocchio and she was gispetto pulling the strings. Yep,

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Speaker 1: she was pulling the strings. You're hearing the alleged victim,

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Speaker 1: Virginia Roberts Jeffries speaking out. Now. It's interesting to me

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Speaker 1: that Karen Stark, she says she knew Jeffrey Epstein was

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Speaker 1: a registered sex offender, but still continued to hang out

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Speaker 1: with him and denies recruiting anyone. How will that stuck

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Speaker 1: up in court when multiple girl victims claimed that she

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Speaker 1: was the one that connected them with Epstein. I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine Nancy that that will hold up and court it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: think about the fact that she's questioning the word recruit. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's say she'd groomed them, because she did. She entertain them,

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Speaker 1: She took them to the movies, she talked to them

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Speaker 1: about steps, she got them prepared to him she'd take

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Speaker 1: off her clothes to be with them, so yes, she'd

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Speaker 1: read it was more than recruiting. She'd bloomed them to

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Speaker 1: be with him. Take a listen now to Adrian Banker

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Speaker 1: at ABCGMA. Do you recall any kind of sexual contact

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Speaker 1: with Virginia Roberts then any other time? None whatsoever. In

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Speaker 1: the deposition, Maxwell repeatedly claims Guffrey is lying about her.

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Speaker 1: She calls Giuffrey an exaggerator, a fantasist, and an absolutely true,

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Speaker 1: terrible person. Maxwell also claims not to remember this photograph

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Speaker 1: appearing to show the three of them together, which Guffray

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Speaker 1: says was taken in two thousand and one at Maxwell's

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Speaker 1: London home. Prince Andrew has previously said that he has

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Speaker 1: no recollection of the picture being taken and can't be

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Speaker 1: sure if it's real or fake. Barry Levine, author of

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Speaker 1: The Spider inside the criminal Web of Jeffrey Epstein and

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Speaker 1: gi Lenn Maxwell, has been investigating the allegations at the

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Speaker 1: heart of these cases, and says Epstein needed the help

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Speaker 1: of someone like Maxwell to earn the trust of his

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Speaker 1: alleged victims. It really became a symbiotic coupling. In the

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Speaker 1: sense that they were able to present themselves, particularly to

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Speaker 1: young women and their families, in the sense that they

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Speaker 1: appeared as a loving young couple. You know, it's very

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Speaker 1: interesting hearing Barry Levine describing that he's the author of

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Speaker 1: The Spider Because to you, Melissa Cronin, author of Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 1: Dead Men Tell No Tales, an upcoming book Epstein, Inc.

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Speaker 1: We see the same thing happening in the Harvey Weinstein case,

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Speaker 1: where his receptionist or his female assistant would put his

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Speaker 1: rape victims, his sex assault victims at ease, bring them in,

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Speaker 1: show them into Weinstein's office, set up the appointment, and

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Speaker 1: so forth, and seemingly put a facade of respectability on

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Speaker 1: what would turn out to be a crime scene. Melissa, Yes, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I worked at Barry Levine for many years, and he's

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Speaker 1: so right that this is just the m of so

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Speaker 1: many sex criminals over the years, as I'm sure you've

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00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: seen and covered in many many cases. And it's one

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Speaker 1: of the most just sickening things about the entire case

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Speaker 1: that not only did Epstein and Gin target girl who

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Speaker 1: were vulnerable to this kind of predation, girl who were

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Speaker 1: homeless or had bad relationships with their parents, We're not

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Speaker 1: doing well in school. Incomes this woman, Glaine Maxwell, you know,

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Speaker 1: hoity tweety accent, beautiful quatre clothes, offering them a chance

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Speaker 1: at another life. Of course they were They were just

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Speaker 1: seduced by her glamour and kind of the life that

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Speaker 1: you laid out for them, and they had no idea

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Speaker 1: what she was really bringing them into. And it's just

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Speaker 1: so sickening. It makes the hairs them may next stand

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Speaker 1: up to think about the way that she targeted that,

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Speaker 1: you know. Bobby Chicone, a former special agent with the FBI,

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Speaker 1: screenwriter for Criminal Minds, I just got thrown back in

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Speaker 1: time to the first case and we didn't call it

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Speaker 1: this at the time, but of grooming and my first

404
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: case where I argued that to a jury was about

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Speaker 1: a developmentally disabled little boy who his mom did everything

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Speaker 1: she could to advance him in life, as we all

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Speaker 1: do with our children. The thing he loved to do

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00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: was go to video arcades and play videos the games,

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Speaker 1: and the mom would give him quarters to go play.

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Speaker 1: In his mind could understand the games and that was

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00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: fun to him. The guy that was antally raping him

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Speaker 1: and molesting him to see him many people, not me,

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Speaker 1: but many people thought he was attractive. He had a

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00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: great job, he had a wife, a family, and he

415
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: would give the little boy who couldn't understand a lot,

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00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: couldn't communicate a lot rolls of quarters in exchange for

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00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: raping the little boy. And one day the mom found

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Speaker 1: either a ten or twenty dollar bill in his pocket,

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Speaker 1: the boy's pocket, and she knew something was horribly wrong

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00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: because he had no way, this developmentally disabled little boy

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Speaker 1: had no way of getting a crisp ten dollar bill,

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00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: so she knew something was wrong and then found blood

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Speaker 1: in his underwear. Those were some of the shocking facts

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00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: in that case. In this case, it's alleged Gil and

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00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: Maxwell lured and groom these girl victims in a very

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00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: different way, but it's it's all the same thing time

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about Gil and

428
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Speaker 1: Maxwell and an attempt to get her out from behind

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Speaker 1: prison walls. To Bobby Chicone, the luring the grooming of

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Speaker 1: these girls, as you heard Melissa cron And describe way

431
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: in yeah, I mean after you're exactly right. I mean

432
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: what we have found in these predators, in these groomers,

433
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: they have this evil innate ability to look at a

434
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: crowd of children say that that's where their victim fluid,

435
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: and they can pick out the ones that are most vulnerable.

436
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: They just have that instinct. Is whether it's cultural, whether

437
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: it's financial, whether it's psychological with the developmentally challenge person,

438
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: whether it's financialize in possibly this case, they know the

439
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: vulnerabilities of their potential victims. They have that innate sense.

440
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: They a power predator can scan a playground of kids

441
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: and within minutes he knows which kids, be it by

442
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: body language or how they're interacting with the other children,

443
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: they knew they know which one to target, and that's

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00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: part of the vulnerability of the victim that they somehow

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00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: pick up on and they go after. And whether it's

446
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: like in this case, financial or these are court kids

447
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: that are being lowered by the richness of the of

448
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: the predator, or whatever it is, they have that ability

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00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: to focus in on the vulnerability of the victim and

450
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: then exploit that vulnerability. You Now, I compare it, Bobby

451
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: to kind to a predator on the savannah where they

452
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: let me just say, gazelles come to drink. Somehow, I

453
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: don't know that they even go through a sequenced thought process.

454
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: They somehow instinctively pick the weakest gazelle. They just have

455
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: to outrun one gazelle, the weakest one. And I believe

456
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: that is how predators pick their child sex victim. Isn't

457
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: it true? Melissa cronan investigative reporter and author of Jeffrey

458
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: Epstein Dead Men Tell No Teals, an upcoming book, Epstein Inc.

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00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: Explain how these young girls were allegedly groomed and lured

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00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: into sex with Epstein or sex acts. Grooming is exactly

461
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: what happened, and each girl kind of experienced a different

462
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 1: a different type of grooming, I guess, depending on how

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00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: particular vulnerability. So, for example, we saw in the in

464
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: the two thousand and six case when they were able

465
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: to get documents from Epstein's home that showed that he

466
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: had sent one teenage girl a bouquet of roses after

467
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: her performance out of school recital. For another girl, he

468
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: had arranged for her to get a rental car because

469
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: she had no car. And for Virginia Roberts, Gufrey Blaine

470
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: Maxwell met her at the Marlago Spa and basically she

471
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: alleged offered her a job as a private messuit for

472
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: this mysterious billionaire Jeffrey Epstein, and for Virginia who was working,

473
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, just part time and didn't really have a

474
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: future ahead of her that she could see this was

475
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: like a major upgrade in her life. So they really

476
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: kind of looked at these girls like Bobby was describing

477
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: and like you were describing, and highlighted, honed in on

478
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: their vulnerabilities and offered them exactly what they thought would

479
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: kind of rulure them in and p douce them in.

480
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: And that's what's the most disturbing of all of it.

481
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: Of course, this case has implications that reach across the ocean.

482
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: I'm referring specifically to Prince Andrew is probably back having

483
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: a cup of tea at Buckingham Palace right now. Take

484
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: a listen to this. After months of fighting to keep

485
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: deposition sealed, this morning, newly unsealed testimony gives a glimpse

486
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: of what Gillin Maxwell said under oath in twenty sixteen,

487
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: repeatedly denying any knowledge or participation and convicted sex offender

488
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein's alleged sexual abuse of teenage girls. In a

489
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: contentious deposition made public Thursday under court order, Maxwell Epstein's

490
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: one time girlfriend and socialite, who had been accused of

491
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: finding and grooming girls for him in the years before

492
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: he died by suicide in jail in August twenty nineteen,

493
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: has testified I never saw any inappropriate underage activities with Jeffrey. Ever.

494
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: The redacted transcript stems from a twenty fifteen defamation case

495
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: brought by Virginia Roberts to Frey, who, in court filings,

496
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: accuses Maxwell and Epstein of directing her to have sex

497
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: with prominent men, including Prince Andrew when she was a miner.

498
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friend andrean banker at ABC's GMA. Of course,

499
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: in that deposition we see where she is asked about

500
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: Prince Andrew, and we see that Gillen Maxwell skirted all

501
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: the questions about Virginia Robert Jeffrey's claim Andrew had used

502
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: kind of a hand puppet to grope her in Epstein's

503
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: New York home. Also, you know, this reminds me so much,

504
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: Am Bremner, of rape cases. And I'll tell you why.

505
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Remember a way back when, when we didn't always have

506
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: DNA we can rely on. First of all, in a

507
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: rape case, the defendant would say, I've never seen her

508
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: in my life, then you'd find a witness and says, oh, well,

509
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: so and so Jackie places the two of you at

510
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: a bar that night. He goes, hump bar. Oh wait

511
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: a minute, is she the girl that came on to

512
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: me at the bar? Yeah, we had a beer together,

513
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: but that's it. And then he says, I left the

514
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: bar she was still sitting there getting drunk. All right,

515
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: Then you have oh, well, the guy at the parking lot,

516
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: he has a video of the two of you walking

517
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: to her car. He goes, oh, well, yeah, yeah, now

518
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: that you say that, I remember walking her to a car.

519
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: And then it goes on that okay, then the video

520
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: shows you getting in the car with her. Well, I

521
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: may have helped her to her car and gotten in

522
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: and taught her for a few moments. Now that you

523
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: tell me that, well, then you find that there is

524
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: evidence the defendant's hair in the back seat of the car.

525
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 1: Finally gets down to okay, yeah, you know what, now

526
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: that you remind me, I think she did come on

527
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: to me and we did have sex in her car.

528
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: You know, like, how trashy is she? So it's her

529
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: word now against his, that there was ever any sex

530
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: activity whatsoever. Then you get the bruises, then you get

531
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: the marks on her neck, then you get the torn clothing.

532
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: To make your case here, we're gonna see the same

533
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: thing regarding Prince Andrew. It never happened. Okay, maybe they

534
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: were at the same party, because apparently in the deposition

535
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: she's shown the same photo. It's Scott Virginia Jeffreys with

536
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: Prince Andrew's hand wrapped around her freaky. He's old enough

537
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: to be her at least father. And you got Gila

538
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: Maxwell beaming in the background. I think it's her. It's

539
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: her home, and she's like, yeah, that looks kind of familiar.

540
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: I mean, so now we're getting evidence and she's having

541
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: to shift and change the story to go with the

542
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: hard evidence. I mean, now you got Anne Drew claiming

543
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: that it was doctor. That's not his hand, right, and

544
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: his friends have come out and said it was doctor.

545
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: There's a picture of him at Epstein's house in Manhattan

546
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: kind of saying goodbye to one of the girls through

547
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: a partially open doorway. I mean that this evidence keeps

548
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: piling up, and the fact of the matter is, you know,

549
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: with her, at least she's not going to admit anything unless,

550
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: as you say, she's given a photograph or something else.

551
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: But basically like, well, I don't remember, I don't know,

552
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: you know, et cetera. About Prince Andrew, I've always said

553
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: about him that there could be an extradition. I mean,

554
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: the fact is there's evidence against him, just like there

555
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: is against others. Why he's sitting in Buckingham Palace sipping

556
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: tea or riding his horse with a queen? You know? Why? Yeah? Why?

557
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: You know? There's another issue I found very interesting in

558
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: the release of this deposition. I don't know if you

559
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: notice this or not. Melissa Cronan investiaive journalist and author

560
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein Dead Men Tell No Tails followed up by

561
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: Epstein Inc. There was a lot of redaction, which I've

562
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: had to personally go through hundreds and hundreds of pages

563
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: of statements to redact names for many different legal reasons.

564
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: They redacted names like Prince Andrew and other high profile men,

565
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: but they left somehow They left the names of four

566
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: underage victims in the documents. How that happened. That is

567
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: one of the first things that I noticed to Nancy,

568
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: and it just made me yet again curious about this case,

569
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: because it's true, there are so many instances throughout the

570
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 1: entire document where they redacted names that are completely obvious

571
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: to anyone who's covered this case at all. And that is,

572
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: like you said, Prince Andrew, there's areas where it's clear

573
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: that she's referring to the Clinton soil and heard Clinton

574
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: and other high profile A list mails that were completely redacted.

575
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: You know, they went through more than four hundred pages

576
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: and made sure that Prince Andrew wasn't mentioned, but somehow

577
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: they missed the names of four underage victims. And it's

578
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: just ridiculous because it shows, yet again, throughout the whole

579
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: entire case, how the men who are alleged to have

580
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: committed these acts are being protected at every single turn,

581
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: and the women are being thrown to the wolves. And

582
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: just as an illustration of that, there was a photo

583
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: of Prince Andrew released after this deposition came out, and

584
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: he's driving around in the countryside and his range rover.

585
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: He's not at all bothered by what's happening, and meanwhile

586
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: these women are being victimized over and over again. It

587
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: just hurts me that the most vulnerable in our society

588
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: are still being taken advantage off we wait as justice enfolds.

589
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime story, signing off good my Friend,