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Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with very rid Holds on

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest.

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Speaker 2: Mike Rockefeller of Woodline Partners launched what was one of

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Speaker 2: the hottest new hedge funds in a long time twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 2: He came out of the gate having previously worked at Citadel,

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Speaker 2: raising about two billion dollars in the new funds. Since then,

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Speaker 2: it's grown to about seven billion dollars. And they are

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Speaker 2: not the typical hedge fund. They run a very specific

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Speaker 2: sector focused type of fund. There are about thirteen different

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Speaker 2: portfolio managers, each focused on a different sub sector. It's

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Speaker 2: beta neutral, market neutral. They run long short across each

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Speaker 2: of these and they've put up some pretty impressive numbers

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Speaker 2: over the past couple of years. It's always interesting to

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Speaker 2: speak to a fund manager in the midst of one

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Speaker 2: of the craziest macro periods of the markets that we've

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Speaker 2: seen and god knows how long who doesn't factor in

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Speaker 2: macro events or the overall market because their market neutral

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Speaker 2: and hedged, and when they look at a sector, they

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Speaker 2: want to be long the very best stocks at the

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Speaker 2: best valuations they can and short the worst stocks at

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Speaker 2: the worst valuations. It's a fascinating strategy and it's one

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Speaker 2: that's been very successful. With no further ado my conversation

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Speaker 2: with Woodline Partners, Mike Rockefeller.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Berry, looking forward to the conversation

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Speaker 1: same here.

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Speaker 2: In fact, we had a conversation at an Emerging Manager's

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Speaker 2: panel back at Bloomberg invest earlier this year, and I

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Speaker 2: thought you would be great for Masters in Business. So

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Speaker 2: let's dive into your background. How did you get here?

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about the early days of

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Speaker 2: your career.

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Speaker 1: Sure, so I was a neuroscience major in undergrad so

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Speaker 1: I had no intention of being an investment Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: you know, a study of the brain and spinal cord.

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Speaker 1: Pretty specific, and you know, I just I love biology.

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Speaker 1: You know, the human body is so complex and will

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Speaker 1: never quite understand it. But I had this really unique

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Speaker 1: experience in between my junior and senior year of college.

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Speaker 1: I got an internship at a investment fund in Baltimore.

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Speaker 1: And this was two thousand and two at the time,

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Speaker 1: so they were not offering paid internships because the market

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Speaker 1: was still recovering from the tech bubble crash. But the

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Speaker 1: chief investment officer offered me an unpaid internship. And he said,

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Speaker 1: and this is what was interesting, that I could live

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Speaker 1: with him and his family for the summer.

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Speaker 2: So I.

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Speaker 1: Know, I know it's a big risk, but I did.

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Speaker 1: I went down there and I spent the summer. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I love sports, Barry, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: think they teach you so much about life. I was

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Speaker 1: not good enough to be a pro athlete, but I

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Speaker 1: was amazed how many similarities there were to investing and

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Speaker 1: being an athlete. You know, the competition, the practice, the

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Speaker 1: hard work, the score and the occasional randomness. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, except in investing, the market is your competitor,

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Speaker 1: and your ability to understand businesses and what's priced into

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Speaker 1: a stock better than your peers is how you win.

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Speaker 1: So what was really amazing about that internship was was

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Speaker 1: actually how Eric, the chief investment officer, practiced. So what

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Speaker 1: I mean by that is that in the morning, he

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Speaker 1: would wake up early, and I saw how he prepared

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Speaker 1: for the day. On weekends, I saw how he would

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Speaker 1: prepare for the next week. I remember walking into his

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Speaker 1: living room on Saturday mornings and there'd be newspapers and

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Speaker 1: research reports and articles all over his living room. And

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Speaker 1: he said this is where it happens, you know, the learning.

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Speaker 1: So I was hooked. I said, this is this is

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Speaker 1: what I want my career to be. And I was

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Speaker 1: fortunate because I was twenty one years old at the time,

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Speaker 1: and from that moment, every step that I took was

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Speaker 1: to get to where I am right now, you know,

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Speaker 1: sitting with you Berry and and you know, investing and

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Speaker 1: being a part of a great investment firm.

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Speaker 2: So you start at the healthcare group as an analyst

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Speaker 2: in City in the early two thousands. Obviously the background

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Speaker 2: in neuro had to help.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So after my experience in Baltimore, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: pivot to finance and came back to school and applied

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Speaker 1: to every major investment bank. That did not go so well.

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Speaker 1: No one called me back. It was late in the process.

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Speaker 1: Most most of the kids that were going into banking

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Speaker 1: at that time already had their jobs, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a back around that banks wanted. I had never

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Speaker 1: taken an account in our finance class. But finally City

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Speaker 1: did call me back and invited me to interview, and

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Speaker 1: I had four different interviews there and didn't get any

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Speaker 1: of the jobs. And so I went throughout my senior

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Speaker 1: year and didn't know exactly what I was going to do.

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Speaker 1: And fortunately, at the end of the year a couple

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Speaker 1: spots opened up, one in the healthcare division of the

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Speaker 1: investment bank, and they invited me in. I interview and

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Speaker 1: I got the job.

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Speaker 2: What was a job like?

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Speaker 1: Well, a couple weeks before I joined banking, someone gave

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Speaker 1: me a book called Monkey Business. Have you read that?

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Speaker 2: I have not.

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Speaker 1: So that book is about bankers at DLJ in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: you know, Premier investment bank, and it talks about how

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Speaker 1: they worked eighteen hour days, slept under their desk, endless

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Speaker 1: pitch books every weekend. And I thought to myself, there's

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Speaker 1: no way it could be like this anymore. That was

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Speaker 1: back then, and I have to tell you, Barry, it

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Speaker 1: was exactly like that. It was brutal. But I was

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Speaker 1: so grateful because I knew my life could have been different,

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Speaker 1: and so I was so happy to be there. I

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Speaker 1: learned a lot of skills, and probably the most important

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Speaker 1: skill that I learned was the basic principle of double

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Speaker 1: and triple checking your work and if you ever make

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Speaker 1: a mistake, don't ever make it again.

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Speaker 2: Huh. Really interesting. So you go from City, eventually to

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Speaker 2: Millennium and Morgan Stanley. Tell us about what you did

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Speaker 2: at those shops.

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Speaker 1: So in two thousand and four I joined Morgan Stanley

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Speaker 1: Equity Research. That was great. They had a star studded

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Speaker 1: cast of research analysts Byron Ween who sadly crossed away

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Speaker 1: recently he had retired, but he was still active, Henry

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Speaker 1: McVay who's now at KKR. He was the US strategist.

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Speaker 1: Katie Huberty, who's still there now, was a young, up

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Speaker 1: and coming tech analyst. And I worked for Jamie Rubin,

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Speaker 1: who was a top pharma analyst. And it was great

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Speaker 1: preparation for the buyside, you know, writing research reports, doing

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Speaker 1: the same kind of work that you would do as

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Speaker 1: an investor, except you're making recommendations instead of on the

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Speaker 1: buy side, you're actually putting those dollars to work and

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Speaker 1: structure in portfolio.

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Speaker 2: So now let's talk a little bit about the buy side.

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Speaker 2: Your next stop is Millennium. What was it like there?

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Speaker 1: So in early two thousand and eight, Millennium was looking

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Speaker 1: for an analyst at one of their funds out in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, and I jumped at the opportunity. I had

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Speaker 1: never been to San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: You're working in New York.

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Speaker 1: I was working in New York and I jumped on

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Speaker 1: a plane and moved to San Francisco. That was my shot,

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Speaker 1: you know, So I was I was in.

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Speaker 2: Two thousand and eight, the start of the Great Financial Crisis.

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Speaker 2: What was it like being at Millennium as everything kind

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Speaker 2: of melted down?

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Speaker 1: So Millennium employees a market neutral equity strategy long short

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Speaker 1: in other words, exactly. And when I joined, I frankly

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Speaker 1: didn't appreciate the power of that type of investing. And

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Speaker 1: then the fall of two thousand and eight came and

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Speaker 1: I learned the power of that type of investing. And

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Speaker 1: to the credit of the portfolio manager that I was

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Speaker 1: working with, Josh Fisher, we were actually up that year.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's pretty that's pretty impressive. So your next stop

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Speaker 2: is Citadel in twenty eleven and you spend six years there.

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Speaker 2: Citadel also, like Millennium, has a fantastic reputation. What was

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Speaker 2: your Citadel experience like?

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Speaker 1: So, during my time at Millennium, as my appreciation for

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Speaker 1: proper portfolio construction started to grow, I had heard that

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Speaker 1: Citadel was a pioneer in this type of investing. So

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Speaker 1: in twenty ten when they were looking for someone to

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Speaker 1: start their healthcare team in San Francisco, I jumped at

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Speaker 1: the opportunity. Citadel didn't jump as quickly as I did.

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Speaker 1: That was an eleven month interview process, Yeah, including in

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Speaker 1: all day what you would consider FBI like interview where

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Speaker 1: they dig through every piece of your background. It was

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Speaker 1: very intense, but fortunately Ken Griffin took a shot on

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Speaker 1: me in what turned out to be a life changing

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Speaker 1: opportunity to build a business. And by the way, everything

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Speaker 1: that I had heard on the outside about the quality

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Speaker 1: of people at Citadel and the investment process that they employ,

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Speaker 1: it was all true. Wow.

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Speaker 2: So that had to be a fun experience. Had to

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Speaker 2: be a tough decision to make to leave a shop

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Speaker 2: like Citadel.

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Speaker 1: It was. My partners and I were incredibly fortunate to

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Speaker 1: grow up at Citadel. It was there that we learned

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Speaker 1: a unique and differentiated approach to portfolio construction and investing

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Speaker 1: where the output was an uncorrelated alpha return stream.

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Speaker 2: What made you decide to say, hey, we really need

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Speaker 2: to do this as a stands alone outside of a

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Speaker 2: big complex fund like Citadel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So Woodline was founded by myself, Carl Kraaker our

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Speaker 1: co chief investment officer, Matt Hooker, our chief operating officer,

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Speaker 1: and then a group of us who worked together for

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Speaker 1: many years, and we studied the industry leaders of the

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Speaker 1: past twenty years, and we believed that we could iterate

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Speaker 1: and improve on those learnings and create a durable investment

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Speaker 1: firm that would thrive in the future. And our vision

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Speaker 1: was to create an investment partnership like you'd find with

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Speaker 1: a Wellington or a Capital Group, with the risk management

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Speaker 1: expertise of Citadel, wrapped in a specialist structure at Woodline.

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Speaker 2: So what was it like when you had to tell Ken, Hey,

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Speaker 2: this has been great, but I want to I want

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Speaker 2: to hang my own shingle out. How supportive was he?

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Speaker 1: The whole process was exciting, occult, scary, wonderful, all of

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Speaker 1: those things. And leaving a successful career and starting your

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Speaker 1: own business makes no sense on paper. The chance of

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Speaker 1: failure is so high, and it was a bad decision

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Speaker 1: financially initially, So we had to make a choice between

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Speaker 1: comfort and creation. And I remember reading Jeff Bezos's bio

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Speaker 1: at the time, and it talks about how Jeff was

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Speaker 1: working at d SHAW in the mid nineties, and he

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Speaker 1: had a great job, and he had an idea to

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Speaker 1: start an internet company. So he goes to David Shaw

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Speaker 1: and he tells him about his idea. David Shaw says, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: this is a great idea for someone who doesn't already

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Speaker 1: have a great job. You know, why don't you take

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Speaker 1: the weekend to think about it. So Jeff went home

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Speaker 1: and he applied what he coined as the regret minimization theory. Basically,

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Speaker 1: when he's a eighty years old, what decision is he

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Speaker 1: going to regret less? And he chose out Amazon, which

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Speaker 1: worked out very well for him.

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Speaker 2: Literally threw all the stuff in a car and drove

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Speaker 2: across country that next Monday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was so inspiring. And obviously Amazon is

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Speaker 1: a different scale, But I will say I asked myself

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Speaker 1: a similar question, which is, do I want to go

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Speaker 1: on this journey even if I never get to where

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Speaker 1: I'm going?

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Speaker 2: Huh? Really really quite fascinating. What was the most surprising

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Speaker 2: thing you learned when you were launching your own firm?

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Speaker 2: What what kind of struck you as Huh? I didn't

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Speaker 2: really expect that to happen.

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Speaker 1: I think how difficult it was to raise money you know,

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Speaker 1: it was it was a rough first few months.

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Speaker 2: Didn't you guys launch with a big chunk of cash though,

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Speaker 2: like two billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: We did, but we had trouble finding investors in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and we had a lot of people on board who

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Speaker 1: left great jobs who were eyeing on us to get

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Speaker 1: funding and pressure there, a little bit of pressure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, it's it's it's a different kind

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Speaker 1: of pressure when you when you're now responsible for so

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Speaker 1: many people. And so we eventually made the decision to

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Speaker 1: fly to the Middle East to meet with a large investor,

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Speaker 1: hoping they would partner with us. And on the flight over,

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Speaker 1: I remember waking up in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 1: I looked up. The whole plane was dark except for

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Speaker 1: one light on in the back of coach, and that

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Speaker 1: was our COO, Matt Hooker, cranking away. And to say

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Speaker 1: we were prepared for that meeting, you know, as an understatement.

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Speaker 1: So we get all the way over there, they brought

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Speaker 1: they brought us into this huge auditorium to present to

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Speaker 1: their team, and you know, we were like, okay, this

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Speaker 1: is it, this is our chance. One gentleman comes in,

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Speaker 1: he sits down. We waited a few minutes. We then

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Speaker 1: asked where everyone else was, and he said he was

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Speaker 1: the only one coming. Everyone else was busy so much

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Speaker 1: so we ended up presenting to just Tim, and suffice

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Speaker 1: to say, we walked away empty handed. But fortunately, a

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Speaker 1: couple weeks later, two partners came to the table and

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Speaker 1: anchored our launch, and like that we were in business.

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Speaker 2: Wow, really really interesting. So let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 2: about your launch in twenty nineteen. You come out of

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Speaker 2: the gate pretty fast. Not a lot of emerging managers

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Speaker 2: start with over a billion dollars. You guys were close

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Speaker 2: to two billion. You know you have since really ran

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Speaker 2: that up in the ensuing four years to over seven

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Speaker 2: billion dollars. Tell us a little bit about how you

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Speaker 2: built the firm and how it's structured.

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Speaker 1: So we structured Woodline to enable our world class decision

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Speaker 1: makers to operate at their very best. And there's a

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Speaker 1: few key elements to that. One is we have a

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Speaker 1: deep specialist approach, so where our teams are experts in

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Speaker 1: the stocks that they cover. We also have a sole

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Speaker 1: coverage model, so that means one person or one team

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Speaker 1: is responsible for their group of names, no overlap. Our

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Speaker 1: teams are also small and autonomous such that they can

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Speaker 1: make decisions. Because we believe that people closest to the

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Speaker 1: ground can make the best portfolio management decisions. And since

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Speaker 1: I mentioned Bezos earlier, he has a great quote. He says,

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Speaker 1: great teams should be small enough such that you can

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Speaker 1: feed all of them with two pizzas. That's a good concept.

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Speaker 1: We believe our senior team should have many years of

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Speaker 1: experience perfecting their craft. There's a gentleman named Anders Ericsson.

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Speaker 1: He's done great work on Mastery and he says that

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Speaker 1: expert performance requires intense and deliberate practice for at least

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Speaker 1: ten years. Our pms have eighteen years of experience.

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Speaker 2: So you started with about twenty five employees, you have

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Speaker 2: since ramped that up to over seventy five people. What's

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Speaker 2: it like managing all those people and that degree of growth.

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Speaker 1: We set up a Cocio model to deal with that

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Speaker 1: vario issue so that we could attract the best talent,

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Speaker 1: leverage the skills and capabilities of Carl and myself, allowing

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Speaker 1: us to have more time both to invest. And we

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Speaker 1: also set up a management structure of Matt, Carl and

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Speaker 1: myself where every decision is made with a two thirds vote,

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Speaker 1: and that allows us to really delineate our duties to

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Speaker 1: where we see fit and has provided us the ability

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Speaker 1: to manage a very complex infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: So not ties it takes to you to really move

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Speaker 2: a decision forward. Carl is your cocio, Metta is running operations.

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Speaker 2: So how much does that free you and Carl up

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Speaker 2: toll becus on the.

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Speaker 1: Investing We get that question a lot, and we tell

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Speaker 1: investors that both Carl and I spend more time now

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Speaker 1: as cocios of Woodline actually investing in our portfolios than

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Speaker 1: we did at Citadel, which is an amazing stat.

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Speaker 2: And is that because of the structure where you began

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Speaker 2: with someone running operations. It wasn't an afterthought a few

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Speaker 2: years down the road exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that structure was thought out so that we could

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Speaker 1: focus on investing rather than having to spend all of

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Speaker 1: our days managing people.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about some of those people. You have

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Speaker 2: thirteen portfolio managers plus including you and Carl. You've talked

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Speaker 2: about a player coach model. Explain what that is.

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Speaker 1: So that's correct. So thirteen pms, including Carl and myself.

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Speaker 1: We also have very seasoned analysts running portfolios, some not

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Speaker 1: These are people truly the best at what they do.

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Speaker 1: And what we mean player Coach is that Carl and

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to just take the traditional chief investment

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Speaker 1: officer role of management. We wanted to invest, and so

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Speaker 1: Carl and I actually run individual portfolios within Woodline. So

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Speaker 1: Carl runs a semi conductor portfolio, myself and my team

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Speaker 1: led by a Niche Kapor and Brian Schmidt, run a

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Speaker 1: bio pharma portfolio, and we spend most of our days

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Speaker 1: on those portfolios.

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Speaker 2: And then how much time do you devote to managing

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Speaker 2: the other eleven or so pms.

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Speaker 1: I would say we spend about seventy five percent of

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Speaker 1: our time on our existing portfolios that we're running, and

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Speaker 1: the remainder of our time managing others and thinking about

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Speaker 1: the business strategically.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about your investment process. You come from

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Speaker 2: a biotech background, Carl has a semiconductor background. Tell us

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Speaker 2: a little bit about a process that has a dozen

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Speaker 2: or so different pms, each with a different focus.

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Speaker 1: We each have a different focus, but we all have

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Speaker 1: the same bottoms up fundamental research process. The teams spend

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Speaker 1: the majority of their time on research and learning about

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Speaker 1: the companies that they cover. Each team covers a small

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Speaker 1: group on average of about fifty to seventy names, so

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Speaker 1: they can understand them better and they come up with

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Speaker 1: unique insights on those stocks in their universe that may

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Speaker 1: not be appreciated by the market, and then structure portfolios

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Speaker 1: around those ideas.

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Speaker 2: So when we think of the typical bottoms up stockpicker,

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Speaker 2: it seems like there's a whole lot of variation, But

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Speaker 2: lots of funds tend to look like other funds. You

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Speaker 2: guys seem to look very different than the typical either

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Speaker 2: sector focused or bottoms up stockpicking focused fund. What makes

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Speaker 2: Woodline a little different, a little more unique.

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Speaker 1: It really comes down to our portfolio construction. We hedge

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Speaker 1: out not just market beta, but any factors that we

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Speaker 1: can't predict. We focus solely on what is predictable, and

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Speaker 1: we construct portfolios around that so that we don't succumb

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Speaker 1: to factors that are moving the market on a day

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Speaker 1: in and day out basis. That's a key differentiation.

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Speaker 2: Give us some examples of those factors that you're looking

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Speaker 2: to hedge out.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So in addition to beta, you know, there's many

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Speaker 1: factors that are moving stocks outside of what is idiosyncratic

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Speaker 1: to a particular company. In fact, you can model these

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Speaker 1: factors and their influence on stocks, so momentum, value, growth,

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Speaker 1: short interest, and like other macro cross currents, we don't

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Speaker 1: have a unique advantage in predicting these factors, so we

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Speaker 1: hedge them out.

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Speaker 2: Huh. So you describe your key overwriting strategy as market

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Speaker 2: neutral equity focus on the global healthcare sector. Let's break

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Speaker 2: that down. Market neutral means most of the time you're

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Speaker 2: running long short. Is it long short against the market

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Speaker 2: or long short within the sector?

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Speaker 1: We run neutral to the market and to the sub

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Speaker 1: sector that we're in both.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So that's got to be a challenging strategy to

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Speaker 2: create for hedging both at the same time.

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Speaker 1: And that's why we have a specialist structure. So we

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Speaker 1: instead of having a healthcare PM or a tech PM,

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Speaker 1: we have a semiconductors PM, we have a medical device PM.

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Speaker 1: Just focusing on those fifty to seventy names within those

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Speaker 1: sub sectors and then structuring portfolios within those sub sectors.

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Speaker 1: So you have to be a specialist to take this approach.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of funds that have found success seem

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Speaker 2: to have run some pretty concentrated portfolios they hit a

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Speaker 2: couple of big winners and it's worked out. You don't

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Speaker 2: take that approach. Woodline has about twelve hundred positions. That

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Speaker 2: seems almost like a closet index, but your performance doesn't

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Speaker 2: track an index. You guys are absolutely not closet indexers.

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Speaker 2: Why so many positions?

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Speaker 1: The reason why it exists is because of our twenty

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Speaker 1: individually constructed subsector portfolios that feed up into a master

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Speaker 1: fund and the end result of that is over one

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Speaker 1: thousand unique positions.

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Speaker 2: So less concentrated exposure. What does that big of a

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Speaker 2: set of holdings? Due to the funds of volatility and

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Speaker 2: return patterns.

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Speaker 1: So we offer investors and uncorrelated diversified return stream. Investors

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Speaker 1: can expect us to be up or down one percent

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Speaker 1: a month and our vall is around five percent annually.

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Speaker 2: Huh, not too bad. What do you do in terms

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Speaker 2: of risk management? How do you stay on top of

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Speaker 2: Obviously you don't have a whole lot of concentration risk,

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Speaker 2: but just generally speaking, what's the risk management process like?

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Speaker 1: So each of the portfolios are running a high idiosyncratic

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Speaker 1: ball portfolio on their own, and it all feeds up

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Speaker 1: into the master fund, which creates a great product, but

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Speaker 1: we also monitor that from a top level, both Carl

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Speaker 1: and Matt and myself. You know, we'll meet weekly and

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Speaker 1: look daily at our exposures and make any adjustments so

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Speaker 1: that we continue to make sure that we are completely

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Speaker 1: neutral to any macro factors.

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Speaker 2: H quite intriguing. So let's talk about some of those

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Speaker 2: sectors you focus on, tech, healthcare, industrials, energy, and consumer.

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Speaker 2: Why these sectors they almost seem unrelated.

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Speaker 1: Well, the primary driver in deciding where to invest is

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Speaker 1: great talent. That's what we look at first. The secondary

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Speaker 1: component is that we look for sub sectors that have

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Speaker 1: the most disruption, innovation, and stock specific idiosyncratic volatility.

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Speaker 2: Those sectors that you're focusing on, there's the greatest mispricing

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Speaker 2: versus what the market believes. How do you how do

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Speaker 2: you look at these sub sectors versus the general consensus.

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Speaker 1: Usually they have the greatest complexity and the greatest disruption,

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Speaker 1: and therefore there's a larger spread between winners and losers.

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Speaker 1: And that's what's required to have a portfolio where the

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Speaker 1: performance is really driven by our relative stock picking.

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Speaker 2: Huh. That's interesting. In the past, you've mentioned that Woodline

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Speaker 2: established a network of corporate execs and industry relationships. Tell

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Speaker 2: us how you're using this network to generate alpha.

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Speaker 1: So we're very fortunate to spend our days building relationships

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Speaker 1: with some of the world's leading executives. And these executives

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Speaker 1: have a full plate of managing complex businesses, and so

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Speaker 1: we're appreciative of the time that they spend with us

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Speaker 1: and the members of the Woodline team. We have a

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Speaker 1: responsibility to create a mutually beneficial engagement, and so we

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Speaker 1: need to be well prepared, ask thoughtful questions and hopefully

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Speaker 1: find ways to add value in terms of what we're

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Speaker 1: seeing across the industry. And then in return, we get

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Speaker 1: to have a front row seat of what these companies

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Speaker 1: are doing and where they're going.

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Speaker 2: Huh interesting. So, in the way you structured the firm,

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Speaker 2: you Woodline does not have a full pass through. Tell

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Speaker 2: us a little bit about firms that do have a

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Speaker 2: pass through and why you elected not to go that way.

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Speaker 1: That was one of the most important questions to answer

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Speaker 1: when setting up the firm. We believed that establishing a

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Speaker 1: partnership model more akin to what you would find with

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Speaker 1: a private equity shop, as the best approach. And we're

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Speaker 1: called Woodline partners for a reason. The partnership structure, coupled

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Speaker 1: with our sole coverage model has allowed us to compete

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Speaker 1: effectively for talent.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about that. On a

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Speaker 2: pass through model, if you're a fund manager that's doing

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Speaker 2: well and the firm is doing poorly, you still get

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Speaker 2: full bonuses and everything else. Everybody else takes a hit.

440
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 2: This is more of a all for one and one

441
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: for all, sort of a three Musketeers approach. Everybody is

442
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: a partner in the firm, not just running their own

443
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: independent fiefdom.

444
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: That's correct, and it really aligns incentives with our employees

445
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: and our LPs so that we're all driving for the

446
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: same goal.

447
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: What does the lack of a pay us through do

448
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: when you're competing for talent?

449
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: So far, it has not impacted us because the partnership

450
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: model has been an attractive component to candidates looking at Woodline.

451
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: And also the sole coverage is an important component. When

452
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: you are looking at a platform and you join, you know,

453
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: another multi manager, you're one of two, three, four, six, eight,

454
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: twenty teams covering the same stocks, and it's more of

455
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: a mercenary type of approach. At Woodline, we only have

456
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: one software PM, that's Elliott Wilson. You know, we only

457
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: have one medical device PM that's Chris Hawkins. They are

458
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: the key people.

459
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: So given that, let's talk about some of those sub sectors.

460
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: When you say you cover tech, how many different subsectors

461
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: are under technology?

462
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 1: There are four sub sectors currently under technology. There are

463
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: four sub sectors currently under healthcare, and we break them

464
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: up biotech services, pharma, semiconductors. We have a Japanese Tech PM,

465
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: we have a Japanese consumer PM, we have a consumer

466
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: Health and Wellness PM. These are all very specialized sub sectors.

467
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: When you say Japanese tech, we're talking about companies in

468
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: Japan that you're buying here. That's right, huh, really interesting.

469
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 2: So each PM works for a specific fund, it's not

470
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: part of a whole pulled fund. How does that.

471
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: Break down, It's a good question. It's all one fund

472
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: that provides diversified access to all of our subsector portfolios.

473
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: Part of the challenge for sector specific funds over the

474
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: past decade is the higher volatility and lower sharp associated

475
00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: with that approach.

476
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: So one of the sectors you cover is energy. It's

477
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: been a kind of odd space the past couple of years.

478
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: The Russian invasion of Ukraine, oil spikes and by the

479
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: end of the year it's below where it was when

480
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: the invasion starts. Now we have the war in the

481
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 2: Middle East, oil fools below eighty dollars. How do you

482
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: contextualize oil? And what other energy subsectors do you do

483
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: you look at? Do you look at non carbon energy?

484
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: What else is in that area?

485
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: So energy was one of those sectors that we didn't

486
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: initially launch with, and the reason why was because there

487
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: was a lot of correlation among the companies within energy,

488
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: and with all that's gone on in the world, including

489
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: clean energy, there's been a lot more dispersion among energy

490
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: companies and have allowed us to first of all, find

491
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: a great analyst covering those names, also to run a

492
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: high idiosyncratic portfolio. So that's why we entered the sector.

493
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: Hey, it's a really exciting time in healthcare. The mRNA

494
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: drugs have been applied to all sorts of different things

495
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: beyond COVID. The obesity drugs like ozembic and wagovi are

496
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: finding amazing traction and having great results. This is your space,

497
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: the healthcare sector. What's it like in this area these days?

498
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: It's an incredibly exciting time to be a healthcare investor.

499
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: Science has gotten to the point where we are understanding

500
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: biology and how to target areas that we hadn't known

501
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: for decades, and we're seeing some incredible results. You know,

502
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: we've made some breakthroughs in Alzheimer's disease, We've made some

503
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: breakthroughs in obesity and in diabetes, in cancer, and so

504
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: to be a healthcare investor right now is probably the

505
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: best time that I've seen in the last twenty years.

506
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: Huh, really interesting. So you mentioned cancer cell therapeutics looks

507
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 2: like it's a fascinating area. What's happening in that medical space.

508
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: Self therapy is very exciting. You basically take a patient's

509
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: cells out, you infuse them, and put them back in

510
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: the patient's body to fight the cancer. And we've had

511
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: remarkable results, particularly in types of blood cancer. But now

512
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 1: we are starting to see the promise to work on

513
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: solid tumors using this approach. And it comes down to

514
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: the industrial complex around these because you have to manufacture

515
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: these cells for each individual patient.

516
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: It has to match their own genetics.

517
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: You have to take the cells out of a person's

518
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: body and align it just for that individual person and

519
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: then and put them back in. And so this is

520
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: not something that you can do like a pill where

521
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: you're manufacturing millions of these. This is a one by

522
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: one approach, and so we have to figure out a

523
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: way to make it more efficient, less costly. But I'm

524
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: confident we'll do that.

525
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about what's going on

526
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: in terms of the hedge fund industry. Eleven thousand hedge

527
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: funds today, go back twenty five years, there were I

528
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: don't know a couple of hundred. Are there too many

529
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: hedge funds? Has it gotten too crowded? Tell us about

530
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: what the space is like.

531
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: The growth in the number of hedge funds has slowed recently,

532
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: and we think that'll likely continue as the consolidation of

533
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: talent into the large Platform models appear structural, and like

534
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: any fast growing business, there will be winners and losers,

535
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: but the platforms offer a material value proposition to their

536
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: portfolio managers and limited partners alike and will likely survive

537
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: various market regimes.

538
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: So define what you mean by platform business models. I

539
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: think a lot of people may not be familiar with

540
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: that term.

541
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: So when I talk about the platforms, some people refer

542
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: to them as the multi managers. The big market leaders

543
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: are Citadel and Millennium.

544
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: And coincidentally, two places you happen to have worked.

545
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: That's right. That's right, And what the platforms offer is

546
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: two things. One, from a PM and analyst standpoint, they

547
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: allow pms and analysts to invest in their portfolios and

548
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: not worry about the operational complexities of running a business.

549
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: That's huge. And from an LP standpoint, there are lots

550
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: of decision makers, so there are lots of ideas and

551
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: it results in a uncorrelated, diversified alpha return stream and

552
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: one that an LP can do in a single investment

553
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: versus the complexity of multiple investments in many funds.

554
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: So when you we were at both Citadel and Millennium,

555
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: you didn't have to deal with any of the operational challenges.

556
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: What has it been like pivoting to running a business,

557
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: hiring people, dealing with regulations, managing people, dealing with clients

558
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: and LPs. How different is this experience from what you

559
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: had previously.

560
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: It's complex and it's critically important to have a fully

561
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: built out infrastructure to support your investment team and manage

562
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: the operations of your business. And we're fortunate to have

563
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: Matt Hooker and his team doing that for us very

564
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: effectively and allows our investment team to invest even more

565
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: than we were at Citadel, which is incredible.

566
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: So we've talked about a lot of different funds. We

567
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: mentioned d Show, we mentioned Millennium, we mentioned Citadel. Each

568
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: of those have a very specific corporate culture driven by

569
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: the founder. How do you create a corporate culture at

570
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 2: your own fund?

571
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: I just watched an interview where Ray Dalyo was speaking

572
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: to Bill Belichick, the head coach of the Patriots.

573
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: Huh.

574
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: Bill had just earned his three hundredth career win, and

575
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: Ray is all about principles, and so he asked Bill

576
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: what his principles as a head coach are and Bill said,

577
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: put your team first, do your job, and continually focus

578
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 1: on improvement. And these are the key principles to any

579
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: successful organization, and they're certainly part of the DNA of Woodline.

580
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: But a football team has a lot in common with

581
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: a successful investment firm. You know, on a football team,

582
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: you have a little over fifty people who dress for

583
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: the game, plus an entire organization around that, and everyone

584
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: dreams of being the quarterback or the star running back,

585
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: but the success of a team is driven by all

586
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: those people who are doing jobs that may not have

587
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: that same kind of glorified role Woodline. Carl likes to

588
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: say that people join because they choose to be on

589
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: a great team, rather than being an all star on

590
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: an OK team. And I think that's true. And I

591
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: like to think of Woodline as an organization of linemen,

592
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: defensive ends, and kickers, where every role is celebrated and

593
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: every person critical to achieving its goals.

594
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about return quality. You've discussed

595
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 2: this previously. How do you define return quality and what

596
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: do you have to do to deliver it?

597
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: So, ultimately, the goal for all investors across strategies public

598
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: private is to generate uncorrelated alpha, and it starts with

599
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: good risk management and optimal portfolio construction. If you look

600
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: at the average investment fund, it has a risk profile

601
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: of around thirty percent idiosyncratic risk. So let's flip that around.

602
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: That means the average investment firm has seventy percent of

603
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: their performance that will be influenced by macro and market factors.

604
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: That's not high quality, and we think the industry can

605
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: do better than that.

606
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: And you cover North America, Europe and Asia. Are you

607
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: seeing more opportunities in one geography versus another? The world

608
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: really is pretty uncorrelated these days.

609
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: We see opportunities for our strategy in the US, Japan,

610
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: and Europe.

611
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: Japan especially has been a house of fire lately. The

612
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: Nike is up substantially. I don't think we're all that

613
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: far from the prior peaks before their big collapse in

614
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: eighty nine. What is it that's driving Japan despite all

615
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: of their demographic problems and everything else.

616
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: What's happening over there, Well, what makes a good market

617
00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: for US is breath of companies, liquidity, and having rules

618
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: based system. And in any of these markets, the market

619
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,439
Speaker 1: being up or down really doesn't matter to us. If

620
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: tomorrow you told me the market was going to be

621
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 1: up five percent or down five percent, it would likely

622
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: have very little impact on the performance of Woodline. And

623
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: so we really look at talent and then the types

624
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: of companies that are within a market that we can

625
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: structure a diversified portfolio with.

626
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: So, if I say to you, US has been really

627
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: strong economically and Japan has been doing well, but Europe

628
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: has been limping along. They've been rolling recessions from the

629
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: UK to Germany to France. They can't get out of

630
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 2: their own way. You don't care about that macro stuff.

631
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: You want to find the right company at the right price.

632
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: And we want to pick the winners and the losers,

633
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 1: and we want to structure portfolios around those winners and losers,

634
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: and the market just does not matter.

635
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: Huh. That's really quite fascinating. All right, we only have

636
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: you for a limited amount of time, so I'm going

637
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: to jump to my favorite questions. I ask all of

638
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: my guests starting with what have you been streaming these days?

639
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 2: Tell us what you're either watching or listening to, either

640
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: video or podcasts, or whatever's keeping you entertained.

641
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: Most recently, I've been listening to Founders, where David Cenra

642
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: summarizes the biographies of path leaders and entrepreneurs.

643
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: Interesting. Let's talk about your mentors who helped shape your career.

644
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: Well. Ken Griffin is a larger than life figure and

645
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: teacher that leaves it imprint about how you think about

646
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: things your entire life. I'd also say that Brandon Haley,

647
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 1: who started Holosecene. He was the first of our group

648
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: at Citadel to launch his own fund and he blazed

649
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: a path for Woodline and others and was critical in

650
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: helping all of us get started. Woodline wouldn't be year

651
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: without him. And then on a personal level level, my

652
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: father for teaching me the value of loyalty and hard

653
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: work and consistency. I've been really fortunate, Barry. So I

654
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: could go on for a while.

655
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 2: Let's talk a little about books, some of your favorites

656
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 2: and what you're reading right now. You mentioned Monkey Business.

657
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: What other books are you enjoying.

658
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: One of my all time favorites is Shoe Dog by

659
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: Phil Knight. Have you read that?

660
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: Yes? Really interesting?

661
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so great. What I love about that is,

662
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: after a long and sometimes grueling road for him building Nike,

663
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: he said he could he wished he could go back

664
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: and do it all over again.

665
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: I recall that I thought that was the most bonkers

666
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: thing in the whole book. Ye, after literally selling shoes

667
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: out of the trunk of his car and not knowing

668
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: if they're gonna have enough money to pay vendors, and

669
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: constantly getting by on the skin of their teeth. The

670
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: first third of that book is like, I know the outcome,

671
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: and it still feels like they're not going to make it.

672
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: They're just skating by.

673
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know it's it's amazing and it's inspiring for

674
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: any entrepreneur.

675
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: Any of the books you want to mention or.

676
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: I'm reading Musk right now and that's.

677
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: Uh Walter Isaacson. Yes, that looks that's that. That looks

678
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: like it's too big to read. It's a giant tone.

679
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm a third of the way through.

680
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

681
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: What I didn't know, Maybe I should have known this

682
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: was that Elon actually started SpaceX before he took over Tesla.

683
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: Right, He didn't start Tesla, he joined it, didn't start PayPal,

684
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 2: he joined it, But SpaceX was.

685
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Basactly Yeah, he was thinking about space travel, you know,

686
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: from a very early age.

687
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: Huh. Quite interesting. Uh. And our final two questions, what

688
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: sort of advice would you give to a college grad

689
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: interested in a career in investing or hedge funds?

690
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: Place learning and experience over salary entitle.

691
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 2: No matter what, No matter what, you got to get

692
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: those fundamentals down, the money will take care of itself.

693
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: Later, exactly.

694
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: And our final question, what do you know about the

695
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 2: world of investing today that you wish you knew when

696
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: you were first starting out fifteen twenty years ago.

697
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,959
Speaker 1: So I was fortunate enough to spend time with Will

698
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: I Am from The Black Eyed Peas a couple of

699
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: years ago, and I was asking him, Will what was

700
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: it that really made you so successful? And he said

701
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: that at a very early age, when he was in

702
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: high school, he started looking forward ten years, twenty years,

703
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: thirty years, and then he would envision himself then and

704
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: then work backward. So I would say, you know, let's

705
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: all be like Will I Am and look thirty years

706
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: ahead and envision what the future will look like, so

707
00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: we don't miss.

708
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: Out really interesting Mike, Thanks for being so generous with

709
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 2: your time. We have been speaking with Mike Rockefeller, co

710
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: chief investment officer and co founder of Woodline Partners. If

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00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure and check out

712
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 2: any of the previous five hundred discussions we've had over

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00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: the past nine years. You can find those at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube,

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00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Sign up from my

715
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: daily reading list at ridults dot com, Follow me on

716
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 2: Twitter at ridults, follow all of the Bloomberg family of

717
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: podcasts on Twitter at podcast I would be remiss if

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00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: I did not thank the PRAC team that helps put

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00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: these conversations together each week. Sarah Livesey is my audio engineer.

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00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: Attika Valbrunt is my project manager. Sean Russo is my researcher.

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00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 2: Anna Luke is my producer. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're listening

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00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: to Masters and Business on Bloomberg Radio Back