1 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: Hey, I'm looking for Joe. That's me, Hi, Joe. 2 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm doing the podcast we're doing on. 3 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 3: Do you know where the cemetery is? 4 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 4: Yes, okay, okay, see those condos down there, Yeah, the 5 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 4: last row this way, it's in between us and them. 6 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 4: It's right like in their backyard. 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: Carrie Nolty and I really want to find Rebecca Briggs 8 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: Cornell's burial site, which is just down the hill from 9 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: her former home. When Rebecca died in February of sixteen 10 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: seventy three, she was likely to have been kept inside 11 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: her home until the ground thought. The owner of the 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: Valley Inn restaurant, Joe Ochi, says that digging would have 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: been almost impossible in the winter. 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 4: It's the middle of winter, and she hadn't been buried 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 4: because they didn't bury anybody that died in the middle 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 4: of winter back then. They couldn't. 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: Joe has kindly offered to give us directions. 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 4: All right, here's West Main Road, here's us Okay, So 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 4: you take a left of the light, you go all 20 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 4: the way down here. There's a big block of mailboxes. 21 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 4: That's how you know you're going the right way. It's 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 4: in basically in the woods right there. It's not well kept. 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: It should be. 24 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 4: It's a historical cemetery. 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, Cornell's very. 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 4: Good, right, it's all Mornell's. Rebecca has a plain stone. 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 4: You'll never be able to tell which one's Rebecca, simply 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 4: because she died one hundred years before they started engraving. 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 4: Does that make sense? 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, thank you appreciated, Joe. 31 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 3: Okay, I did, and it actually matches the maps. 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: That it's not really easy to find, but it was 33 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: a short drive from the valley and restaurant in Portsmouth, 34 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: Rhode Island. This is a very secret garden entrance to 35 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 2: a cemetery. 36 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 3: It's nice that it's near though. Yeah, oh my god, 37 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 3: here it is where I'm here. 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: Careful there's a lot of branches down here. Oh man, correct, 39 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: this place is. 40 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 5: Can you hear the crows? 41 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: As if on q. 42 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 5: Oo? 43 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: I just got stuck. So these have you have word? 44 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 3: They could not have word? 45 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 6: Stump like this. 46 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was saying, she'll just be a stone, right. 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 3: Phoebe corn Now died eighteen thirty. 48 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: This is sacred John eighteen o nine. We're looking for 49 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 2: an even older Cornell here, Rebecca, her husband Thomas Senior 50 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: or even her son, Thomas Junior. 51 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 3: He requested Thomas Cornell Junior requested to be buried next 52 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: to his mother. 53 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: Okay, do you think it's marked. 54 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: No, he's buried by the road. Oh but it's not marked. 55 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: We're not gonna be able to find him. 56 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: No, so they would refuse to bury a murderer next 57 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 3: in a consecrated plot, which would this would be. 58 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: Stephen Cornell eighteen forty So he should have if he 59 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: were innocent, he would be here, and we Rebecca's here. 60 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: We just don't know where. 61 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: She would have been buried next to Thomas Senior. 62 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: Well okay, well, I wish we could see a. 63 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: So these these are probably the original. 64 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: You can barely see Rebecca's grave marker because the slate 65 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 2: rock is so degraded. To be honest, I'm not even 66 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: sure which one it is. But she is here. We 67 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: do know that when you think something like this would 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: be hers, a little tiny Yeah. 69 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 3: She would be next to so I my money would 70 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 3: be on. 71 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 7: Here or you so. 72 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 3: But so the fact that all of these are kind 73 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: of laid together seems to me to indicate a family. 74 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, this is a sad little graveyard. But how 75 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 2: did Rebecca Cornell end up here. Was it an accident 76 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 2: or a murder? And if it a murder, who was 77 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 2: her killer? Carrie Nolty helps us catch up to our story. 78 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: In early February of sixteen seventy three. 79 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 3: They had found Rebecca Briggs Cornell laid on her left side, 80 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 3: burned from her porso to the tops of her legs 81 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: and dead. They had an inquest the next day to 82 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 3: try and see what might have caused this. You know, 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 3: what are the circumstances, And it is supposed that a 84 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 3: coal from her pipe had fallen on her and set 85 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: her on fire and she had died from that. 86 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: The coroner's jury had taken a quick look at Rebecca 87 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: Cornell's body, but it wasn't an in depth examination. 88 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 3: She was burned and they weren't looking. Yeah, so, I mean, 89 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: I can't imagine that. I also would want to look 90 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: at my neighbor and family member for too long that 91 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 3: had been burned to death. 92 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: The panel of men ruled her death as an accident, 93 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: and everyone assumed that was the case for a few 94 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 2: days now. 95 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 3: About a week later, her brother John Briggs wakes up 96 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 3: and is kind of between that waking dreaming moment and 97 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: felt as though something crawled on the bed with him, 98 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 3: and he opens his eyes and he sees his sister 99 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: kind of bathed in an ethereal light, and she says, look, 100 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: how I am burned with fire. And he took this 101 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: to mean that she had been deliberately burned. 102 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: John Briggs begged coroner William Boston to retrieve her body 103 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: and take a closer look, which he did. But remember 104 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: Bolston didn't appear to have any formal ting and medicine 105 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: of any kind. 106 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 3: So the thing about these colonial governments is that the coroner, 107 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 3: the sheriff, the members of the jury, everything, that's your neighbor, 108 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: that's your in law, that's a number of different positions 109 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 3: that that person holds in your life. They are central 110 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: to your life, like you cannot escape these interconnected webs 111 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: of relationships and resentments and affiliations and good feelings and things. 112 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 3: So everything gets layer upon layer upon layer of complexity 113 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 3: the further into things you go. 114 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: All that's to say that the people who were determining 115 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: the cause of death knew Rebecca Cornell, and they probably 116 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: knew of the troubles she had had with her son 117 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: before this tragedy. There's a bias there and that could 118 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: be a problem for Thomas Cornell Junior. 119 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 3: They had two people come and examined the body when 120 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: Rebecca was first found, and they just assumed that it 121 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: was an unfortunate, unhappy accident, that she perhaps had been 122 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 3: sleeping and her pipe set her on fire and she died. 123 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: Then John Briggs had his dream and they exhumed the 124 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: body and two more people examined the body and found 125 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 3: a suspicious wound. 126 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: A suspicious wound? What does that mean? 127 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 3: They find a suspicious wound on the upper part of 128 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: her stomach. 129 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: That they hadn't noticed before. 130 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 3: All we know is that it is a suspicious wound. 131 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 3: That's what was written in the record, and that is 132 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 3: all really that they say about it. They do indicate 133 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 3: in a couple places that they think that it was 134 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: made by an iron spindle. Spindle is one of the 135 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: instruments that you use in weaving, which is one of 136 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: the reasons that we think that Rebecca was a very 137 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: skilled weaver. 138 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 2: So is it like a knitting needle almost. 139 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: It's kind of like a knitting needle. It's spindle to me, 140 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: is like in a weather vein. It's the little so 141 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: that's that's certainly the what it looks like. So what 142 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: I think it essentially is it's one of those things 143 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: where you drop the thread like you're you're taking fibers 144 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 3: from wool or from flax or from cotton, and you're 145 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 3: making thread with it, so you're spinning it very very fast. 146 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: It's like a needle. 147 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 3: It's like a very it's a large needle, yeah, like 148 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: a knitting needle, and then can oftentimes be very sharp. 149 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: And the spindle Rebecca used was made of iron, so 150 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: it would have been very hard and very sharp. I 151 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: asked Cary where the wound was specifically locatedrses, Yeah. 152 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 3: They said the upper part of her stomach in the record. 153 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 2: And it looked like something sharp. 154 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 3: Some some sort of wound that they previously overlooked. 155 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: The jury called it a suspicious wound. The men seemed 156 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 2: to suggest that someone had fatally stabbed Rebecca Cornell with 157 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: a sharp spindle and then either set her on fire 158 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: or watched her trip toward the fireplace and accidentally set 159 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 2: herself on fire. Either way, it was murder. They were 160 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: certain even so. Portsmouth historian Anne Burns says that their 161 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: description of the wound and its potential cause was so 162 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: vague that it made it almost impossible to figure out 163 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: what the coroner's jury thought happened. And that's a problem. 164 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: After all, couldn't the wound have also been inflicted accidentally? 165 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: What if she had tripped and fallen on the spindle, 166 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: or what if it wasn't even a spindle. 167 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 8: They've never identified a murder weapon. Was it her pipe? 168 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 8: Did she fall on top of the pipe she was 169 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 8: smoking with an uncture wunk from the pipe? 170 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: Maybe it was likely made of clay, which was the 171 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: preferred material in Europe. It might have been sturdy enough 172 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: to cause a puncture wound if she tripped and fell 173 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: as she carried it. And then Anne mentions a different theory. 174 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 8: One of the other grandchildren said that they saw cotton 175 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 8: around in the end of a poker the end of 176 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 8: the poker stick. So was it that somebody said it 177 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 8: one of the grand other not the Edward first one 178 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 8: into the room, but one of the other ones said 179 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 8: it was. 180 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 2: That the spindle that Carrie was talking about. Probably, but 181 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: could it have also been a fireplace poker. Remember this 182 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: is likely one of the younger grandchildren, not fourteen year 183 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: old Edward. He or she the grandchild might have been wrong, 184 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: and it was very dark inside Rebecca's room. 185 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 4: Everybody that has a fireplace has lots of tools around it, 186 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 4: some of them with sharp edges. So I can't say 187 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 4: either way. You know, you've got the pokers to poke 188 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 4: the life, You've got different things there, so could go 189 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 4: either way on that one. I think you could make 190 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 4: an argument both ways. Yeah, but I think it's also 191 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 4: one of the big mysteries that'll never be solved either. 192 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 2: The wound, if it was a wound, was described as 193 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: being very small, like a needle, not thick like the 194 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: end of a fireplace poker. Let's talk about the other 195 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: physical evidence. I wanted to know if they had definitively 196 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: determined where the fire started. 197 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 3: So interestingly, when they went back to get more detail 198 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: about this, they we have one witness who says that 199 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 3: there were appeared to be drag marks. Okay, yeah, where 200 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: the coals had been dragged. 201 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 2: That sounds suspicious, except one of the Cornell's servants had 202 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: admitted that he came in and raked the coals off 203 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: the body, and the witness who reported that detail was unreliable. 204 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: So could that be mistaken for something else? Because the 205 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 3: person who is reporting about what looks like the drag 206 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: marks of the coals was someone who had initially not 207 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 3: come in with everyone who rushed in. At first, he 208 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 3: ran to the outside to make sure that the house 209 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,479 Speaker 3: itself was not on fire. 210 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: Good instinct. But by the time that witness arrived, the 211 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: crime scene was already contaminated by multiple people. Let's return 212 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: to the positioning of the body. 213 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 3: The interesting thing as well is that Rebecca was found 214 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: with her head towards the fireplace on her left side, 215 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 3: her feet towards the bed, and the bed, which had 216 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 3: balances and curtains for warmth, was singed. Part of it 217 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 3: was burned, but not entirely so. 218 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: Rebecca's body had been severely burned by the fire. There 219 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 2: were smoldering coals on top of her, and she was 220 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: facing away from the bed. Part of the bed was burned. 221 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: I know I've said that this was the largest room 222 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 2: in the house, but it didn't seem to be that 223 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: enormous by today's standards. Seventeenth century buildings were rarely actually large. 224 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 3: We have a rough estimate, I mean, we could probably do. 225 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: I say we they could probably do some estimation. If 226 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 3: they went into the basement of the Valley Inn and 227 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: really get a sense for what the size was. But 228 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: it cannot be more than twenty feet by twenty feet. 229 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: So how did the fire get to both Rebecca's body 230 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: and the bed? Was she lying on it? It's hard 231 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: to know. I'm definitely not an expert in fire behavior, 232 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: and this isn't the only question we have. 233 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 3: I think that given the preponderance of what seems like 234 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 3: coincidental providence here, it's suspicious. Why does she have a wound? 235 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 4: Yeah? 236 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: Why is she now burned over the woond? Why when 237 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: normally if something catches fire and there's nothing to stop it, 238 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 3: why did it not continue to burn? 239 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: Rebecca Cornell's body had been burned beyond recognition, but other 240 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: things were only lightly burned. More questions. 241 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: Personally, I think that she had been burned beyond recognition, 242 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 3: and so there was some smoldering, and so it is 243 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 3: if you're burning cloth, and what that sort of looks like. 244 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 3: We don't know what the weather was like. Was it 245 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 3: very humid? You know? Were there other impediments to the 246 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: burning of it? Was it timed correctly? Because these are 247 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: people who knew fire, worked with fire, understood fire in 248 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: a way that we don't have to because we don't 249 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 3: use it every day. 250 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: With all of these questions, it's time to consult the experts. 251 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: Our forensic chemist, who has also studied fire, says that 252 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: even people who work with fire every day, like with cooking, 253 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: don't always understand how it works. Rachel Burks is an 254 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: associate professor of analytical chemistry at American University in Washington, 255 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: d C. She has regularly appeared on the Science Channel, 256 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: so she knows how to explain forensic chemistry to a 257 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:24,359 Speaker 2: layperson like me, Thank goodness, because arson investigations are complicated. 258 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 7: Specifically, I'm a forensic chemist, so all of the chemicals 259 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 7: I'm interested in are associated with misdeeds usually or some 260 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 7: kind of a scandal, right, so you know all of 261 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 7: the explosives, chemical weapons, drugs of abuse, which then does 262 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 7: have overlays of course to public health, but mainly right 263 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 7: in the forensic context. And then my group also does 264 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 7: research and developing new techniques to visualize latent prints, so 265 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 7: those are our main research areats. 266 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 2: We know that layton fingerprints are clues that are not 267 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: visible to the eye, but they can be seen when 268 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 2: you use fumes or certain powders. Rachel also teaches students 269 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 2: about how fires can be used to cover up murders. 270 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 7: You know, as you said, fires as kind of an 271 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 7: evidence destruction tool is very common, right, historically to just 272 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 7: you know, wipe something off, right, I mean just completely 273 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 7: obliterate something. And even before what we think of the 274 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 7: modern advances in forensic science, so the last one hundred 275 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 7: and fifty years, but even previous to that, fire as 276 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 7: a destructive tool to just not only destroy potential evidence, 277 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 7: but to make an area inhospitable. That is a type 278 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 7: of weapon, right, So that's that has been used in warfare, right, 279 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 7: It's been used and kind of in our personal violence. 280 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 7: All of those things as far as like setting people 281 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 7: on fire not as common as some of our other 282 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 7: violet methods. 283 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: And it's not just fire that can destroy evidence of 284 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: a crime. 285 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 7: Firefighter's job is not to be like, let me worry 286 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 7: about this CSI, my boat jumbo. It's to mitigate or 287 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 7: eliminate the fire safety threat. Right, And that means you 288 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 7: are pouring and they're going to bring in all this contamination, 289 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 7: pouring thousands of gallons of water. It's true an area 290 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 7: and that of course is very destructive. 291 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: But what complicates many fire investigations are the many modern 292 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: day materials that are found in our homes that are flammable. 293 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 7: All kinds of furniture are even our clothing, like it's 294 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 7: just everywhere, and that is a petroleum based product. And 295 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 7: with enough heat, what can happen is sometimes right that 296 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 7: itself could melt. Classic is like lawn furniture, right, or 297 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 7: even something like a solo cup. 298 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: Rachel says that even those red plastic cups could be 299 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: problematic for arson investigations. 300 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 7: That can melt at high temperature and actually go into 301 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 7: a pool, and that might when it burns, might end 302 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 7: up looking like, oh, someone poured an accelerant and lit 303 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 7: it on fire. It's like did they or was there 304 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 7: something substantial plastic that melted and then when it was 305 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 7: in its kind of liquidity phase, transitioned into a more 306 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 7: fire visual burn, right, Because things will melt and then 307 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 7: maybe it'll actually kind of combust. And that's a real 308 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 7: challenge with fire dynamics and investigations in the modern era. 309 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 7: You know, two hundred years ago, one hundred and fifty 310 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 7: years ago or less, before the mass production of plastics 311 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 7: that just wasn't an issue. 312 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 2: If that's true, then Rebecca Cornell's case should have been 313 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: relatively easy to solve. There were no plastics in sixteen 314 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: seventy three, So what in her room or on her 315 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: could have easily heated up and combusted not very much. 316 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: We need to look at what type of accelerant might 317 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: have been used. Rachelle says that most people who start 318 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: fires today aren't very creative. They use the classics gasoline 319 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: or maybe diesel, or maybe kerosene. Those are each very 320 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: powerful accelerants. What could have been used in the Cornell's home. 321 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: I asked Carrie Nolty about what she thinks happened if 322 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: someone did murder Rebecca Cornell. 323 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 3: I think that he may have taken a piece of 324 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 3: kindling and set her dead body on fire, and set 325 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: the balances on fire and stage the scene, you know, 326 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 3: put it out, and burned her in a specific way 327 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 3: that he knew that it would just burn on her. 328 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: Rachelle also says that fire is unpredictable and it's nearly 329 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: impossible for a killer to control. Unlike poison, which can 330 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 2: be administered in doses, there's little an arsonist can do 331 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: to dictate where and how a fire will spread. So 332 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 2: much of the time, staging a fire to cover up 333 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: a crime scene doesn't work. 334 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 7: I think the thing that comes up with these types 335 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 7: of investigations when people use destructive techniques, they think the 336 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 7: fire will consume all and that simply isn't the case. 337 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 7: Fire is a combustion reaction. No chemical reaction is one 338 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 7: hundred percent efficient, and going in the forward like all 339 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 7: producing one hundred percent, They're just not. They are not. 340 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 2: But couldn't the arsonists just add more fuel? Not exactly. 341 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: Rachel has a crazy story that illustrates why more fuel 342 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: isn't usually the determining factor in whether a fire is successful. 343 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 2: It's more the combustible reaction. 344 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 7: There was a particular video, I think it was during 345 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 7: really during the pandemic, where someone tried to burn another 346 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 7: person's car, and I'm watching this video going yikes. Is 347 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 7: that they take a gas camp red bright red that 348 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 7: we've all kind of seen or maybe used, leans all 349 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 7: the way into the back seat, and that's where I'm like, 350 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 7: I pours the gas in the back. 351 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: Rachel says that the woman thought she needed to light 352 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 2: the liquid gas. Big mistake. 353 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 7: So this person leans all the way into the back 354 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 7: seat lights it. But what really actually is burning is 355 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 7: the vapor. That's what is the particle to particle burn 356 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 7: like that on a hot day, right, that gas lead 357 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 7: in an effectively pretty enclosed car. You've made almost like 358 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 7: a little bomb. 359 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: Before the woman could reach the liquid with her hand, 360 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: she lit the gas vapors. 361 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 7: And so luckily the force of that, because it's a 362 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 7: rapidly expanding gas, pushes her back out into the car 363 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 7: that's next to the car she's trying to destroy. It 364 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 7: looks like luckily her injuries are minor. And that's the 365 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 7: other thing people don't get is that it's really probably 366 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 7: the vapor that's going to be more dangerous and what's 367 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 7: actually going to cause the burn out so much. The 368 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 7: bulk fuel. 369 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 2: Fire as a weapon seems a little like poison. There's 370 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 2: a complicated chemistry to it. So it's really hard to 371 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 2: get right. 372 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 7: Not only the bulk, the material, the density. There are 373 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 7: certain things that are you know, just more lamiable than others. 374 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 7: Like you sprinkling on a little gas may not be 375 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 7: it right. It may not be the right oxygen ratio. 376 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 7: Even though there is some level of fire. You might 377 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 7: need more fuel, you might need more oxident like, that's 378 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 7: the complicated chemistry, and sometimes I think it's just evil luck. 379 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: But what about Rebecca Cornell's case, Why was she specifically 380 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 2: burned in certain areas? And if it was arson, wouldn't 381 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 2: the whole house catch on fire? 382 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 7: Depending on where she was in the room, you know, 383 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 7: her clothing, her bedding area, it could have actually been 384 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 7: quite contained. And I'm gonna have to be a little 385 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 7: bit graphic here, but that human fat the oil that 386 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 7: can actually serve as a type of burning fuel. And 387 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 7: sometimes the most destroyed areas can be those that are 388 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 7: like where areas of fat can kind of collect on 389 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 7: the average human body. 390 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: So it sounds like Rebecca's body could have served as 391 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 2: its own fuel. And another thing, Rebecca is described as 392 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 2: wearing boots. That's how Thomas identified her. Now, Rachel says 393 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: that this detail makes a big difference. 394 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 7: Sometimes there are areas that might be seen to be 395 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 7: protected because they're also covered up by more sturdy materials. 396 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 7: You know, she had like a quality boot on leather, 397 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 7: you know, something treated, maybe weathered in some way. She 398 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 7: could have had completely intact lower limbs. 399 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: One more detail we can't forget. Remember that Rebecca's daughter 400 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: in law Sarah Earle, who couldn't stand her mother in law, 401 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 2: told investigators in a statement that it was quote marvelous 402 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: that the cotton on Rebecca's clothing had not burned while 403 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 2: the wool did burn. 404 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 3: Was that probably so they could recoup some of the cloth, 405 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: and also because you would think that everything would burn, 406 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 3: because we're talking about like you would inherit someone's clothing 407 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: once they died, because that is how precious and just 408 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 3: completely scarce these items are. So that she could salvage 409 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 3: anything from this would be fantastic. 410 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 2: For a moment. Let's set aside how incriminating and weird. 411 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: Sarah's marvelous comment was, there's something else important here. How 412 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: different types of materials burn. And again our forensic chemist 413 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 2: Rachel Burke has an explanation. 414 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 7: She somehow ignites or her fabric ignites and it starts 415 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 7: to burn somehow. Maybe the curtain's not quite sure right 416 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 7: and we don't even know if it happened in that order. 417 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 7: Then the curtains light up. That's that's almost a second 418 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 7: that could potentially have been like here's this fire, heat 419 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 7: transfer or whatever goes to that material, and then what 420 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 7: that material, the weave is going to matter. Was there 421 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 7: some type of treatment on it? What was the exact 422 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 7: even one hundred percent cotton? It doesn't go up like 423 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 7: in the movies like this. 424 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: Right, if Rebecca had been alive when she was on fire, 425 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 2: why didn't she scream? 426 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 7: You went immediately to a level of a panic, which 427 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 7: you know, heart rate, you're maybe you're not thinking clearly, 428 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 7: like you know in your scenario, you don't have her 429 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 7: calling out the house is full, right, And that's the 430 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 7: thing is we don't sometimes act rationally, and we keep 431 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 7: saying that like you know, oh, it's only this deep 432 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 7: of water wide and they stand up because people in 433 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 7: distress don't act quote as rational human beings sometimes. 434 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 2: In the end, Rachel Burke says, it might simply have 435 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 2: been a terrible accident. It seems to be a very 436 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 2: logical explanation for all of this. 437 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 7: She could have died of natural causes, fell off her chair, 438 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 7: she could have had a massive carnary. She could have 439 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 7: been if she was ill, you know, she reported, you know, 440 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 7: she told her French wasn't feeling well, she didn't want 441 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 7: to eat. Could have been some kind of national Testal distress, 442 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 7: which is a manifestation of all kinds of stuff, including poisonings. 443 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 7: And I'm talking food poisoning too, right, And so you know, 444 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 7: I don't think it's unreasonable to also assert that she 445 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 7: could have died of natural causes. 446 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 2: That does seem simple, but this is tenfold and if 447 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 2: you know how these stories go, you know there's always 448 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: something more there. We've been talking with our forensic chemist 449 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: Rachel Burks, and she suggested that despite the strange circumstances 450 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: around her burning, it's possible that Rebecca Cornell did die 451 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 2: of natural causes. 452 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 7: Sometimes he will be like, oh, it must have been 453 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 7: burning for a long time. No, it could have just 454 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 7: been that much energy, just the right combination of energy, 455 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 7: oxygen and fuel. It's not always a matter of time, 456 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 7: it's the matter of the ratio. It could actually be 457 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 7: a very short amount of time. 458 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: Rachelle wishes we had more information me too, about rugs 459 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: in the room, about the size of the room, how 460 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: insulated it was, about the exact size of the fireplace, 461 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: the drafts of air that night. All of those things 462 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: could give us more definitive answers. Without those details, it's 463 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 2: just speculation, which is always dangerous. Rachelle thinks it's possible 464 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: that Rebecca could have fallen as she was dying near 465 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 2: the fireplace and her clothes then caught on fire. But 466 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: Rachel says it also could have been murder with the 467 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: fire used to cover it up. 468 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 7: See, and we don't know how she fell, right, And 469 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 7: that's the thing too, is like there's so many questions 470 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 7: about you know, there are other reasonable options. And I 471 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 7: would say in addition, too, maybe some other mode was 472 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 7: used and then fire was used as a cover up. 473 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 7: That's the distinct possibility you've mentioned that. 474 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: Back to Rebecca's body, Gloria Schmidt has questions about that wound. 475 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: The matrons had undressed her, cleaned her, and then redressed 476 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 2: her right after her death. Rebecca had been totally stripped down, 477 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,479 Speaker 2: but the women didn't report any kind of wound at 478 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 2: the time, and that seems odd to both Gloria and me. 479 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 5: Why wouldn't the women have seen it when they first 480 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 5: took care of her body. Maybe they didn't think it 481 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 5: was anything. Maybe it was something small enough that it 482 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 5: could have been from anything. 483 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: And remember, Rebecca Cornell was likely being kept covered inside 484 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: a warm house. Decomposition would have progressed much more quickly 485 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: than if she were outside John Briggs had that dream 486 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: a few days after her death, giving the body plenty 487 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: of time to degrade. 488 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 5: But it might not have been there at the first go, 489 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 5: because you've got decomposition happening, you know, there wouldn't be 490 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 5: any reservation of the body, no embalming when they're you know, 491 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 5: looking at it. But I don't think it's a very 492 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 5: large hole, and it's just something that is, you know, 493 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 5: above the stomach, or that's the way they describe it. 494 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 5: So I think they think that it's small enough that 495 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 5: something sharp might have caused it, but they didn't see 496 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 5: it when they were preparing the body, so that makes 497 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 5: me dubious. 498 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 2: Valley In restaurant owner Joe Ochie says that the coroner's 499 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 2: jury in sixteen seventy three was on a mission to 500 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: the dream that Rebecca's brother. 501 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 4: Had already as far as they knew, had a sign 502 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 4: from a Rebecca because she appeared to her brother, so they, 503 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 4: in my mind, would be looking for a second sign there. 504 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 4: It was so that in the conjecture of her and 505 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 4: her son not getting along, you just add it all 506 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 4: up and he's the main suspect. 507 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: Between the newly discovered wound, the ghost and the dream 508 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: and the bad feelings between mother and son. Thomas Cornell 509 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: became the prime suspect in what was most certainly a 510 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: murder according to people in Portsmouth. But this definitely wasn't 511 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: an open and shutcase. Thomas's version of events was consistent. 512 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: It was an accident, he said, not murder. He had 513 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: argued quite a bit with his mother, he admitted, but 514 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: he would have never killed her. 515 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 5: So he doesn't change his testimony between the coroner's jury 516 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 5: and the trial. His deposition is almost work for work. 517 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 2: And yet Thomas Cornell Junior would soon go on trial 518 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: for her murder. I asked Gloria if the coroner's jury 519 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 2: had spoken to Sarah Earle before they issued an official 520 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 2: ruling of murder. Her statements had seemed pretty concerning to me, 521 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: and she didn't appear to be grieving. 522 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 5: No, she's not going before the coroner's jury and the 523 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 5: two people that went before the coroner's jury was Thomas 524 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 5: and this Henry Strait that had gone in with him. 525 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: Carrie Nolty, like the rest of us, has quite a 526 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 2: few questions. 527 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 3: One thing this question questionable to me is again, why 528 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: did no one hear anything? Why did she she's on fire, 529 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 3: smell anything? And how did she burn enough that she 530 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 3: was unreckedgnizable in that time? Because her her son was 531 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 3: in there for an hour beforehand, it was talking with her, 532 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 3: and then they went to dinner. And how long does 533 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 3: that take? Not certainly not very long. 534 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 2: Carrie says that the timing, if this were murder, seems odd. 535 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 3: So how long was she burning and how fast? And 536 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 3: if some of her clothing didn't burn, how long was 537 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 3: she on fire for? So she was apparently burned from 538 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 3: the top of her head to the top of her legs. 539 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 3: So my question is, how does that happen? What is 540 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 3: the rate of burn? And then why would some parts 541 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 3: of her burn and not other parts of her? And 542 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 3: I don't know enough about you know, fire and things 543 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 3: that are flammable and the rate of burning. 544 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 4: Most of their clothing was was flammable, very flammable. 545 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, these are all questions with no real answers without 546 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: modern forensics. Of course, Carrie and Joe and I talk 547 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: about the mechanics of how the fire might have started. 548 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 3: The idea that nothing would happen, I mean unless she 549 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 3: had a heart attack and fell over, But why would 550 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 3: most of her be burned and not just a spot 551 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 3: of her, even if a spark flew from the fire 552 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 3: and lit part of her on you know, a blaze 553 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 3: is just a little beyond the circumstances as they were described, 554 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 3: or a little beyond belief for me. 555 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 4: Well, logically, if she did fall more to the top 556 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 4: of her would be burned. 557 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 5: Sure, so. 558 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 4: You can make an argument both ways. 559 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 9: I think I would love to hear a scientist who 560 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 9: is versed in these kinds of things to kind of explain, 561 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 9: you know, the rate of burn, How fast does a 562 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 9: human body burn? 563 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 3: What parts burn faster than other parts? Why would there 564 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 3: be scorch marks on the bed? You know, what does 565 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 3: this scene look like to a forensic person, now, to 566 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 3: someone who investigates fires. Because to me, it seems the 567 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 3: totality of the events as they seem to transpire leaves 568 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 3: me with more questions than seems reasonable for. 569 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: An accident, right, that's reasonable doubt. In February of sixteen 570 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 2: seventy three, just about everyone in Portsmouth seemed to be 571 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 2: suspicious of Thomas Cornell thanks to the new evidence of murder. 572 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: This is all despite the fact that Thomas seemed to 573 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 2: be respected overall Portsmouth historian Anne Burns questions the motives 574 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 2: of just about everyone in this case. 575 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 8: The man that her brother, John Brigs, who had the apparition, 576 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 8: What did he have to gain? Who got the property 577 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 8: after if his nephew was deposed, What did he stand 578 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 8: to gain? Like did he get the property afterwards? Like 579 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 8: you know, like did he hope. 580 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 2: To get the property afterwards? 581 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 3: Man? How do you know? 582 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 8: He wasn't making the whole thing up right? 583 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 7: So he had had so much credibility. 584 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 8: John Bragg had so much credibility, and apparently the status 585 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 8: quo at the time was not to question people that 586 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 8: had a high standing in the community. 587 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: Now we're back to motive. Why are so many people 588 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: raising the alarm specifically about Thomas? Why not someone else 589 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 2: in the house, like Sarah Earle. Everybody is placing Thomas 590 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 2: Cornell in the room. Are they totally dismissing the idea 591 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: of an accident happening at all? Because this happened all 592 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 2: the time? People said themselves on fire? 593 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I do. 594 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 8: I think that John Briggs planted the seed that there 595 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 8: may have been foul play, and they reopened to the case, 596 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 8: found that wound, and then just started. 597 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 5: Talking to people. 598 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 8: I don't know if people came forward, if the constable 599 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 8: went out and found people to depose. 600 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 2: I think it sounds like it was. 601 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 8: Pretty combon knowledge that there was a lot of tension 602 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 8: amongst the household, the adults in the household, so that 603 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 8: probably wasn't new news and they ran with it. 604 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 2: But it's like it's gossip. And remember Rebecca had admitted 605 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 2: to her daughter that she was horribly depressed. Might she 606 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 2: have taken her own life? Meanwhile, Thomas Cornell cried to 607 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 2: anyone who would listen that he was innocent and maybe 608 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 2: some people would change their mind. But then a surprise 609 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: witness offered investigators a deposition that would shake Thomas's case. 610 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 2: It turns out that Rebecca Cornell wasn't just a victim 611 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 2: of elder abuse. According to her friends, she was planning 612 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: to leave Thomas and Sarah's home because she was also 613 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 2: afraid for her wife. On the next episode of tenfold 614 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 2: War wicked on exactly right. 615 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 5: When you look at the depositions, most of them are 616 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 5: talking about his not treating her as well as he 617 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 5: could well. 618 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: And obviously, if you're going to hit someone or complete 619 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: violence on someone, you're more likely to do it on 620 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: your mother because she's going to be weaker than you, 621 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: or weaker than your other parents. 622 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 3: Part of what gets them to indict Thomas is the 623 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 3: spectral evidence that John Briggs has where his sister comes 624 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 3: to him and says, look, how I am burned with fire. 625 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 6: Even in the late twentieth century, you had arson investigators 626 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 6: with very little training saying the fire speaks to me, 627 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 6: you know, and using this very like witchy cosmic language 628 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 6: around their skills. 629 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 7: And it just seems so shocking that that would be 630 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,760 Speaker 7: considered evidence, that that would somehow like this person got 631 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 7: indicted that I'm like. 632 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:30,280 Speaker 3: What. 633 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 2: If you love true crime, check out my books American 634 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 2: Sherlock and All that Is Wicked. I also have an 635 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 2: audio book called The Ghost Club. I can't wait to 636 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 2: tell you the real story about the world's most famous 637 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 2: ghost hunter, who was the head of the world's most 638 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 2: famous ghost club and how he investigated England's most famous 639 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 2: haunted house. This has been an exactly right tenfold more 640 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: media production producer Jason Whaling, Senior producer Alexis A Morosi, 641 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 2: consulting producer Kyle Ryan, researcher Nicole Brown, sound designer Eric Friend, 642 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 2: additional sound design by Nicholas Mooney's composer Curtis Heath, artwork 643 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 2: Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer. 644 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,240 Speaker 2: Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold More Wicked