WEBVTT - Banned At Work: The Military’s Ban on Gays & Lesbians 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.480 What We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:05.560 the Outspoken podcast Network. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.800 When I had to go back to work to drive 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.600 through those gates, I had to be that soldier again, 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.440 and that's what I just kept telling myself, You're a soldier. 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:31.160 And there were days when I was leaving I would 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:37.520 just pull over to side the road and cry because 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.480 I could not hold it in anymore. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.640 As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.880 I thought being gay was the worst thing I could 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:54.200 ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:58.160 that by seeking out our history, and what I've found 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:03.800 are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love. 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.280 In this episode, we'll learn about the US military's ban 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.120 on gay people and how the loss of a partner 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.039 to AIDS pushed one gay soldier to fight back against 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.920 that ban. From My Heart Podcast, I'm Jordan and Solves, 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:48.560 and this is what We Loved. Living a double life 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.800 is a reality for many queer people. For me, my 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.360 double life ended right before I graduated college. That's when 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.640 I came out to my friends and my family. Shortly 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.560 after I started working at this big tech company. I 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.560 was twenty one and I was nervous about being out 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.079 at work. I was worried that they might treat me differently, 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.200 but it was actually very welcoming culture. There was even 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.520 a group just for queer employees, and I met some 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.919 amazing queer friends through that. I was really lucky. If 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.880 I'm being honest, I had no idea that the freedom 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.080 that I had to be out and proud in the 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.799 workplace was because of the many sacrifices that the queer 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:36.280 people before me had made. Danny Ingram is one of 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.760 those people. He was a gay soldier in the nineteen eighties, 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:41.800 when there was a ban on gay people serving in 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.720 the military. If he came out at work, or was 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.200 even found out to be gay, he'd be fired. During 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.600 the eighties, the decade when he was serving, an average 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.720 of one thousand, five hundred service members a year would 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.959 be fired just for being gay. The ban wasn't anything new. 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.320 Some form or another of this band had actually did 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.320 it all the way back to the Revolutionary War. For 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.600 many years, gay people were considered mentally ill and a 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:13.840 liability to the military. During the Cold War, gay people 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.959 were thought of as Communist sympathizers, but by the eighties, 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:23.480 the justification was about morality. The official policy from that 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:28.840 time said, the presence of homosexuals adversely affects the ability 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:34.120 of the military services to maintain discipline, good order, and morale. 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.880 Danny kept his head down and did his job, But 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.360 this was also when gay men across America were dying 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:49.280 because of AIDS, including Danny's partner Daryl. Keeping this a 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:54.080 secret became unbearable. He couldn't say a word to any 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.400 of his supervisors or his colleagues out of fear of 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.960 being fired. He watched his community and his partner, Daryl 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.280 suffered from AIDS with little sympathy from the government. Angry, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.080 he became an activist. He knew that if queer people 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.520 were ever going to survive the AIDS epidemic, they needed 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.600 to be seen in society. They needed to have the 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.000 option of being out at work. He needed to be 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:24.320 out at work, So in an act of protest, Danny 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.960 risked his livelihood and came out to the military. He 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.680 would go on to become one of the most important 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.640 figures in ending the ban on gay people in the military. 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.480 But before we get there, I wanted to know why 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.800 Danny joined the military in the first place. Knowing that 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:48.320 people like him were banned. Why did you decide to 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:49.080 join the army. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:55.400 I believed that it would make me feel better about myself. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:56.839 There was. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:03.400 There was tremendous shame about being gay at that time, 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.039 and I wanted my father to love me. Members of 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.719 my family had actually served in the military since the 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:17.960 Revolutionary War, so it was it was something that I thought, Okay, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.160 if I can wear my country's uniform, I will feel 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:28.720 better about myself and my father will love me. And 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.400 I thought it would fix me. I thought that hyper 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.720 masculine environment it would fix me, and I did feel 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:37.760 better about myself. 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.800 I found the military to be you know, if you 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.400 did your job well, people respected you, and I did 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.760 my job very well. I was one of the best 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:53.320 soldiers in my unit all the time, so I felt 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:54.200 good about it. 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:55.800 It was really a great fit for me. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.600 So you were really good at your job, best in 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.880 your unit. But you are gay and there's a ban 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:09.400 on gay people. So how did that ban affect your life? 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:14.839 Yeah, there was that very hidden aspect while I was 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.640 in the military, and that's not easy to do. When 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.520 you're hanging out with your other buddies and they're talking 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.520 about you know, who they're dating and what's going on 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:28.160 and everything. And I did not like the fact that 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.479 I was being told there was something I could not 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:36.680 do which would serve my country. And I remember the 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:41.120 whole issue was being discussed at the time in the military, 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.960 and I remember I was not out, but we'd all 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.560 be sitting around in the warehouse and people talked about it. 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:54.799 So the younger guys were very negative. We don't want 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.800 them here, we don't want them in the military. The 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.960 older guys, particular, the Vietnam veterans, they didn't have a 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.400 problem with it, they said, and their words, not mine. 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.880 They said, we had fags when we were in Vietnam, 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.000 and they were perfectly fine with us as long as 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.960 they could shoot. So I knew I had allies, even 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.400 though I was not out to them, but I just 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:24.720 didn't talk about it. I just didn't share it with them. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.960 Okay, So shifting gears a little bit, tell me about 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.200 what was going on outside of work. What was gay 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.200 life like in the seventies. 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.480 Being gay was a party. It was a party. Our 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:45.120 whole social life centered around the bar and the disco. 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.360 Do you have a memory, Oh, I have many memories 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:49.640 tell me your favorite one. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:56.880 Well, my favorite group was Abba and With Dancing Queen 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:02.760 Dancing Queen. So we would dance as a group usually, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.200 and when one of their songs came on, we would 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:11.680 take a hit of poppers and just go wild on 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.560 the dance floor in your tight clothes, tight clothes, enjoying 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:22.120 our youth and each other. The music was pounding, it 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.400 was hot and sweaty. You lots of guys dance with 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:29.600 your shirts off. It was all joy and happiness, just 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.400 a big party. We worked during the day, you know, 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.160 to get by, and then we went out, and that's 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:40.040 what our lives centered around, was going out and partying. 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.360 It sounds like even though you were closeted at work, 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.160 life outside of work was vibrant. 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:54.000 Oh absolutely, it was great being comfortable, being open and free. 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.280 The only place we could do that. It's like just 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:02.280 having chains around you during the day, but in the 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.240 evening you could go out and be yourself and you 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.280 didn't have to lie to anyone. So when those songs 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:15.679 came on, it was a religious experience on the danceflom. Music, alcohol, 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:21.600 a little bit of drugs, and I just fell high. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.200 And your best friends. 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:28.040 Yeah, my best friends, and I'll never forget, Never forget. 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:32.360 The village people had a song out called Ready for 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:37.920 the Eighties. So on New Year's Eve at the club 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.320 at the bar, we were listening to that song and 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:47.000 little did we know, little did we know what was 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.600 about to hit our community. We were so excited about 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:55.199 a new decade where progress was being made. We were 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:59.800 not political people at that time. And then AIDS hit 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:02.760 and the party stopped. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.360 When we come back, Danny begins to understand the urgency 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.360 of ending the military band when he falls in love 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:30.000 with his partner Daryl, who is dying of AIDS. It's 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.880 nineteen eighty eight and AIDS is devastating the gay community. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.480 It has become the third leading cause of death among 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.840 young men in America. Four years later, in nineteen ninety two, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.760 it would become number one. With no effective treatment like 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.840 there is today, people diagnosed with HIV, the virus that 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:55.040 turns into AIDS, thought it was a death sentence. In 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.880 many cases, AIDS patients would rapidly lose weight, purple skinly 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.320 would form all over their body, and cancers would develop 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:09.679 too before they eventually died. Most people with AIDS were young, 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.240 between the ages of twenty and forty years old. According 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:18.720 to the CDC, Danny had begun losing friends and felt 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.920 as though the government wasn't doing enough to prevent these deaths. 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.080 He was in the army and closeted at work, but 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.120 began volunteering for AIDS relief outside of his job, trying 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.600 to give back to the community as much as he could. 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.480 Little did he know he was about to meet someone 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.800 who would change the course of his life. Tell me 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:42.680 about how you met Darryl. 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.240 The church that I was going to had an event 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:52.040 every Tuesday night where we would serve a formal dinner 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:58.319 to people living with a's, where they could sit down 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.880 at a table with each other and discuss what was 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.120 working for them, what therapies they were doing, where they 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.600 were getting their drugs. Who was a good doctor. But 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.600 I met him there. I remember serving him iced tea 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.959 and he was a huge flirt. 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:18.600 You've got a big smile on your food. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:23.840 Yeah, he was really cute. He had dark hair, not 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.680 much facial hair at all. He was taller than me, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:32.439 as most human beings are, and he was just very outgoing, 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:38.080 very witty and very sweet. I remember was pouring his 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:43.120 tea and he said, well, you know you can. You 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:48.400 could pour it on me and lick it off. So 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:53.320 it was like, okay, well that's that's definitely flirting. But 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.280 he invited me out, and I did get invited out 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.600 often at those events, but I usually didn't because I knew, 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.280 you know, you really didn't first of all, cross the 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.079 line between a volunteer and someone you're helping, but also 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.960 because we knew there was no future in it. But 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:15.640 with him it was different. 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.880 Yeah. So I guess when you say that, Danny, so 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:24.800 many questions come to my mind, like, you know, what 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.160 made you want to enter into a long term relationship 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.840 with someone that you knew was dying. 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.920 As someone has said to me before, the heart wants 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.880 what the heart wants. It's not logical. You fall in 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.400 love with someone, and when you fall in love, you 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.240 get stupid, So you know, you you don't really think 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:51.560 about that. Love conquers all. So you know, we thought, okay, 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.760 in our love, we will get through this together. I 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.000 will be there for you, and we will get through 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:06.600 this together. And as time went on and his disease progressed, 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:13.120 it did become clear that he was going to die, 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:17.960 and we made the most of every time we had together, 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.760 and we had about three years together. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.400 How did you spend your time together? 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:31.280 Well, at that point we had all become quite political 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.360 with fighting for the government to provide support for the 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.520 AIDS community, which you can say they were caught off guard, 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.320 or they didn't take it seriously, or the wrong people 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.160 had the disease, which is I think the reality of it. 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.360 So he was also an activist, as was I. So 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.000 we did a lot of things together. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.240 What were some of your favorite memories with him? 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:01.720 One of my favorite memories. The diseases that a lot 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.680 of the guy's got was called wasting disease, and it 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.480 had happened to him, and he had found a new 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:13.360 therapy where they would install an access port on their 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:18.280 chest and they would take nutrition through that. So he 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.040 had gained back a lot of weight and a lot 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.560 of energy. He was looking great and feeling great, and 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.640 he wanted to go visit his mother in Tennessee. And 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.800 it was the fourth of July. So we drove up 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:36.640 to very rural Tennessee and I met his mother, who 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.560 was who certainly she was glad that her son had 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:45.200 someone who loved him. And I remember hot, hot July 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:50.040 night sitting out watching the fireworks. We both felt good. 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.240 He looked great. So it was away from all of 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:59.520 the politics and the marches and the fundraising and the 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.600 content stint activity, and it was just peaceful and just 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.720 just he and I. You know, you live in the South, 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:13.240 you have hot, steamy Southern nights, and you're sticky, you're 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.320 drinking a cold when and you're just sitting out in 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:20.160 the porch looking up at the sky and watching the fireworks. 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:22.920 That was you know, that's good. It's as good as 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:23.400 it gets. 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:23.800 Really. 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.200 We'd kiss every once in a while. His mother went inside, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.560 so it was just the two of us. When you're 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.680 in love with somebody and you look into their eyes 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:36.160 and nothing else matters. 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:39.840 It sounds so simple. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:45.440 That that weekend was simple. That weekend was simple. You know, 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.520 sometimes you have those where you need to just get 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:53.240 away from it all, and that was a nice, simple, healthy, 0:16:54.200 --> 0:17:01.360 no worry weekend. And then of course we we went 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:02.680 back into reality again. 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:11.480 I'm curious to know who was Darrell to you during 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:19.320 these three years. Well, he was. 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:24.159 He was my partner. I was also his caregiver. He 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:31.800 was my inspiration to see the challenges that he faced 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.040 and that he faced them with with tremendous courage, and 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:43.240 so he was very inspiring to me, and we loved 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:50.119 each other. We never had sex in the three years 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:57.480 really together because he was terrified that he would infect 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:03.400 me with with HIV, and of course we knew all 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:08.520 about safe sex, which was huge. Then he did not 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.160 want to go there, and I was okay with that 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.720 because just to be with him was enough. I mean, 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.560 to sleep beside him was enough for me. 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.880 Was that ever something you missed or did you just not. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:31.960 Care when you're in love with somebody again, that love 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.199 really is all encompassing. I never thought about it, to 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.320 be honest. Just touching him it was all I needed 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:45.000 hearing his voice. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.520 Do you mind describing what it was like when the 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:54.679 illness started to progress so our listeners can get an 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:59.359 understanding of what this was like for the thousands of 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:03.000 men that we're dealing with this And how old were 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:03.760 you guys? 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:08.639 By the way, he was twenty eight when he died. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:19.720 I was about thirty three. So the disease would the 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.919 immune system was so weak, and infections would come along 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.040 and they would be serious, and then there were trips 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:31.200 to the hospital. Those trips became more frequent. The therapy 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.680 that he was taking that allowed him to gain weight 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:42.760 stopped working, so he lost all the weight again. It 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:48.840 became very, very thin. And on Christmas Eve of nineteen 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:54.520 ninety three, he said, we have to go to the hospital. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:20:00.880 And I started crying, and he he just he put 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:05.879 his hand on my shoulder and he said, not from you, 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:13.199 not from you. I'll take tears from everyone else, but 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:17.879 not from you. And we had to carry him to 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.480 the car and then take him to the emergency room. 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:28.359 And we called his mother and she came, and the 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:32.040 doctors pulled us both out in the hall. Now I 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:37.520 had no control over his medical decisions at all. Once 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.440 his mother was there, it was all up to her. 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.600 She was next of ken. I had no rights whatsoever 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.520 when it came to his medical care. And so the 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.320 doctors pulled us out in the hall and they said, 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.600 his kidneys are failing. We could do an operation and 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:02.119 start dialysis, but we don't recommend it. And they looked 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.600 at both of us and we knew what that meant. 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:10.000 He was going to die. And then and then it 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.760 became the long wait. Friends came and went to say goodbye. 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:19.520 His brother was called to come and we sat there 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:27.840 watching that little machine on the wall that beeps, and 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:33.040 it got lower and lower and lower until it flatlined, 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.879 and then he was gone. I was holding him in 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:44.040 my arms as he died, and and and he went 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.199 out that way. He went out knowing that he he 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:52.359 was not alone, and that he was loved and at 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.439 that time that we had together, which was very unusual 0:21:55.720 --> 0:22:08.920 for two gay men. We'll always touch my heart. 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:14.840 While all of this is happening with Daryl and you, 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:20.520 you're still serving in a military that bans gay people. 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.920 So Darryl passes away, and then you go back into 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.360 the military where you can't even talk about this. Right. 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:35.280 Yes, when I had to go back to work, drive 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:39.000 through those gates, I had to be that soldier again. 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.880 And that's what I just kept telling myself, you're a soldier. 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:48.520 And there were days when I was leaving the unit 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:52.640 for the day, I would just pull over the side 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.760 of the road and cry because I could not hold 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:56.560 it in anymore. 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.720 So when you came back from Christmas, I mean, we're 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.480 people saying how was your Christmas break? And you were saying, good, 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.200 how was yours? Again? 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.240 Most of my life was private, and they were accustomed 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:12.720 to that, and I certainly did not want them to 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:18.280 know that I had someone with HIV disease, because the 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:23.280 ignorance around that was, you know, huge, So I did 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:27.000 not want them to associate me with AIDS. That was 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:31.280 one of the things that the other side frequently used 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:34.240 as an argument to keep gay men out of the military, 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.000 was saying that they will bring AIDS into the military. 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:40.520 So I did not. I spoke with no one, and 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:42.639 I had friends who had it worse. I had a 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:46.399 friend who was a test pilot and his partner died 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.520 and he had to fly a plane the next day 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:54.480 without telling anyone or doing anything about it, before the 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:56.840 funeral was even planned. He had to go get in 0:23:56.920 --> 0:24:01.280 that plane and fly that that test aircraft. One of 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:08.480 the many, many, many sacrifices that LGBT people made while 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:11.359 they were serving in the military and simply had to 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:14.520 keep their lives private, sacred. 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:39.560 When Daryl passed away in nineteen ninety three, Danny was 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:44.240 devastated and angry. Sharing with anyone in the military that 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.720 your life partner had just died because of AIDS would 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:52.840 absolutely be grounds for discharge. But this is what motivated 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:55.840 him to end the band. Once and for all. He 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:58.760 knew that being out in the military was fundamental to 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:03.160 the larger gay rights move He asked himself, if queer 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:06.359 people aren't allowed in the workplace, how can we be 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:11.840 seen as human beings, as full members of society. He 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:14.919 felt encouraged by Bill Clinton running for president in nineteen 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:19.000 ninety two. During his campaign, Clinton promised to lift the ban, 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:23.400 so Danny came out to the military. He thought he'd 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:28.040 be protected, but after Clinton got elected, he took back 0:25:28.080 --> 0:25:32.920 that promise. Generals and congress members began pushing back on him. 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:37.200 So Clinton came up with a compromise that would become 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:41.720 known as Don't Ask, don't Tell. Gay service members could 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:45.120 serve so long as they didn't tell anyone they were gay. 0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:48.800 So when Danny came out in nineteen ninety two, he 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:52.760 became one of the first service members to be discharged 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:54.320 under this new policy. 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:59.879 I came out in I believe it was nineteen ninety 0:25:59.880 --> 0:26:03.560 one one or ninety two. Bill Clinton was running for president. 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:08.960 He said that if he was elected, he would lift 0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:14.720 the ban, and being the naive person that I still am, 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:19.480 I believed he would do that, and I wanted people 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:23.959 to know that we were already there, so they wouldn't 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:27.320 be saying, Okay, you lift the band, you're gonna let 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:31.920 all these people in. I wanted them to know that 0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:34.439 I was already there, that I was one of the 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:38.720 best of the best, and it would not change when 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.840 the band was lifted, And so I decided to come out. 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:43.200 Now. 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:49.920 When I came out, my fellow soldiers were very angry 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:56.479 with me, only because I didn't tell them before. So 0:26:56.600 --> 0:26:59.840 why didn't you tell us? Why didn't you tell us? 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:03.960 And I said I couldn't. I could not tell you 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:09.000 about this. So with the don't ask, don't tell compromise, 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:14.440 I had told. So I was discharged. 0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:18.399 When you were deciding to come out. Did any of 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:19.960 that have to do with Darryl? 0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:23.760 Of course it did a lot of it had to 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:29.359 do with AIDS because we had reached a point, and 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:34.360 it is the truth. They will let you die. They 0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:39.240 will let you die. Until you speak out, until you 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:43.240 work to get people elected to let them know your 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:48.640 political power, they will let you die. And so that 0:27:49.560 --> 0:27:54.760 fueled my own desire to change that policy. 0:27:55.920 --> 0:27:59.280 Break that down for me, How was the military band 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:03.120 against people connected to the fight against AIDS? 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:09.600 Because we saw what was happening with AIDS, that if 0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:13.399 you don't speak up for yourself, if you don't come out, 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:17.359 if you're not visible, if you're not authentic, if you 0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:24.720 don't reach out and change the country, we will die 0:28:24.960 --> 0:28:27.040 and they will kill us, and they will prevent us 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:31.720 from having the same rights as everyone else. We knew 0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:36.320 that the military ban it had to go before we 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:39.840 could have anything else. We would not have marriage, we 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:44.640 would not have protections until that ban was gone. And 0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:48.480 so with all that was going on with the AIDS epidemic, 0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:52.400 it was time to act. It was time to use 0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:57.320 our voice to say to our fellow Americans, you will 0:28:57.360 --> 0:29:01.120 not let us die. We have power and we have influence, 0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:04.680 and it's time to bring justice to this country for 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:09.320 LGBT people, in our healthcare, our right to marry, in 0:29:09.400 --> 0:29:13.160 our right to serve. It was the time to speak out, 0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:19.000 and Daryl encouraged me very strongly to do it. He 0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:26.040 also loved me in uniform, but he said go for it. 0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:34.520 And so he died on December twenty six, nineteen ninety three, 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:39.000 and I was discharged in March of nineteen ninety four, 0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:45.640