1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of shondaland 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. A good secure 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: attachment lowers our blood pressure, It lowers our heart rate, 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: It lowers our stress hormone cortisol level, It rises levels 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: of dopamine, oxytocin, neurope Eneugh Fron, all those feel good 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: neuro hormones. Love is the best medicine we have. Hi there, 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. So 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 1: a few years ago, in therapy with Jennifer Burton, who 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: some of you have met through this podcast, she said 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: this thing about attachment style to me, and I was like, 11 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And she was like, there 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: is this theory about attachment and I think it could 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: be really useful in your work. And she suggested this 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: book and I downloaded the book and I started it 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: reading it and never finished reading it because, like life, 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: happens and it keeps coming up in therapy. So then 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: I discovered Dr Wendy Walsh and that she specializes in 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: attachment theory. Thought since I never finished reading the book this, 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: this would be a really great opportunity for me to 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: learn more about attachment theory to help my life and 21 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: my own therapeutic process and maybe help you as well. 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: So for anyone else out there who has not finished 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: the book, just listen to this podcast. Dr Wendy will 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: break it all down for you in a brilliant and 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: very clear way. Dr Wendy Walsh is a psychologist specializing 26 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: in human development and attachment theory. She's an author of 27 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: three books about the science of love, a professor of 28 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: psychology at California State University, Channel Islands, and an award 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: winning television journalist and radio host kf I AM six 30 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: forty in Los Angeles. She also has her own podcast, 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: Mating Matters, which uses evolutionary psychology to explain human mating strategy. 32 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: Please enjoy my conversation with Dr Wendy Walsh. It's gonna 33 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: be made. Hello, Dr Wendy Walsh, Welcome to the podcast. 34 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: How are you doing today? Like so many, I'm just 35 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: at home trying to find privacy during COVID with kids 36 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: doing stuff. You have two children, I do, they're almost 37 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: grown young woman women. I have a twenty two year 38 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: old daughter who just graduated college, and I have a 39 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: seventeen year old daughter. Wow, good for you. That's incredible. 40 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: So a couple of years ago, I was in therapy 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: I'm often in therapy, thank God, and my therapist said 42 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: this thing to me about attachment theory, and I was like, 43 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And I learned that I 44 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: had an anxious attachment style, and I was like, if 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: I had known this twenty years ago, I could have 46 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: saved so much time. So can you please talk to 47 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: the people and held them what attachment theory is? Sure? 48 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: So it's an area of psychology that's been very well 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: researched for many, many decades, and it is the one 50 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: that spoke to me most in graduate school. I just 51 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: it just made so much sense. And basically, we all 52 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: come into the world with a genetic predisposition for closeness 53 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: or feeling easily smothered, or predisposition towards anxiety or depression. 54 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: And then what happens with our beautiful little genes is 55 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: they meet the environment, and our primary environment when we're 56 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: young are our parents, and so they behave in a 57 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: way that either activates some of our genes or suppresses them. 58 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: And so what ends up happening is, in simple terms, 59 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: during the first three years of life. We form a 60 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: kind of model for love in our heads, and then 61 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: in our adult romantic lives, we go out and we 62 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: go right back to the scene of the crime. We 63 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: try to find somebody who will play along and what 64 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: we believe love is. So even if love was filled 65 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: with criticism, abandonment, God forbid abuse, we will find somebody 66 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: who will give us all that and more, because that's 67 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,559 Speaker 1: what's familiar to us. So attachment theorists put people into 68 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: sort of categories, loose categories, secure, anxious, avoidant, disorganized, and 69 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: and then you know it's incumbent on us to understand 70 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: our model for love and to try to heal attachment injuries. 71 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: I love that so much and something and all the 72 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: research preparing for this, and then when I've learned from 73 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: my therapist, I didn't realize that there was a genetic 74 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: component to this. You just said that the way our 75 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: parents treat us in those first three years activate something genetic, 76 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: And as can you tell us a little bit more 77 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: about that research around the genetic piece of attachment theory, Well, 78 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: I would say that in fact, about every single human behavior, 79 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: there's a biological, there's a psychological, there's a social component. 80 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: We aren't born in a vacuum. We're actually a many 81 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: one brained species, and we interact with each other. And 82 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: while we're interacting with each other, we're enlivening or suppressing genes. 83 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: So here's an example. Let's say a baby comes into 84 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: the world with a very big gene for anxiety. Maybe 85 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: their parents or their grandparents suffer huge trauma that actually 86 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: changed their DNA. And in fact, we're learning, for instance, 87 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: that even grandkids of Holocaust survivors have huge genes for 88 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: anxiety and depression and they live in wealthy neighborhoods in 89 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: Connecticut and never saw any trauma. Right, But it's you know, 90 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: passed down from generations. Can I just can we just 91 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: pause there? I just think it's so important because that 92 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: that that's something that I've been looking into and reading about. 93 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: The first time I heard that trauma can be passed 94 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: down from generation and generation, it just like I felt 95 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: there were some things when I heard about my grandfather, 96 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: you know, living on plantation for example, it was just 97 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: like I was like, oh my god, It's just like 98 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: I knew it was the truth immediately, just in myself. 99 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: But but go on, So here's our anxious baby comes 100 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: into the world, happens to come into the world into 101 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: a set of parents who read all the parenting books 102 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: they can, and they really believe in what we call 103 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: attachment parenting, wearing their baby, consoling their baby, not leaving 104 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: them alone to cry it out because it's good for 105 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: their lungs. But when that baby feels anxiety, they say, sure, 106 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: come in my bed, baby, it's fine, and they soothe 107 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: that baby. Well, that gene for anxiety doesn't get enlivened. 108 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: Then you might have a same baby with a different 109 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: set of parents who read a parenting book that said, oh, 110 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, they just need to cry it out, just 111 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: leave them alone in a room. They'll fall asleep eventually, 112 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: and that baby lies there in the dark, maybe hungry, 113 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: maybe with a wet diaper, and that anxiety gene flourishes 114 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: because of it. And I want to talk about more 115 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: examples book I want to share as yours online. Personal 116 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: so from chief as in one into two thousand and five, 117 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: I was in a relationship with a man who was 118 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: a really an insane alcoholic and he was really emotionally abusive, 119 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: and it became a codependent relationship where it was it 120 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: was it was gruesome and it was awful. It really 121 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: really was awful. And what I as I was in 122 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: therapy at the time and working a lot on codependency issues, 123 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: I realized that he with my mother. I realized that 124 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: he was my mother, that he was my emotionally abusive mother, 125 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: and he spoke to me, and very soon I thought 126 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: I was in love. He spoke to me in very 127 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: similar ways that my mother did, and that felt like 128 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: loved me. And it's so deep to me now and 129 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: so like my goal in the relationship. If I can 130 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: make him love me, then I can then my Mom's 131 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: gonna love me, and then and then I'm enough, and 132 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: then I'm worthy. I'm worthy. It really was about that 133 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: working out this whole thing with my mom through him, 134 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: which is a strange thing. I was. It was twenty 135 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: years ago, so you know, so no, even in our 136 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: later adult lives were constantly talking about our partners as 137 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: representations of pieces of our parents, because they always are. 138 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: We go back to try to resolve conflict. Yeah. What 139 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: I what's been lovely though, is I've actually gone to 140 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: my mom. We kind of done work together. My mom 141 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: and I are in a great place now. I feel 142 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: so weird. It's like talking about like her being emotionally 143 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: abusive publicly because I'm like, we're in such an awesome 144 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: place now, But it wasn't easy getting to where we 145 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: are now. It was a lot of years of painful 146 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: conversations and saying this is how you made me feel, 147 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: and it was really awful, and now it's it's wonderful 148 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: and now and and now I'm in a place to 149 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: where I'm like, she did the best she could. And 150 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: then that piece of inter generational trauma to so informed 151 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: how she treated me and my grandfather was really abusive anywhere. 152 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: We're not going to go there, but like that, all 153 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: of that is actually connected to attachment style if we're 154 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: talking if it's genetic, and so what is so beautiful 155 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: is that I've you know, healed a lot of that 156 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: with my mom. She's still with us and she's healthy, 157 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: and that's awesome. And now I have not repeated that 158 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: relationship either. I have not dated an alcoholic since you know, 159 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: since I broke it off with him, and I have 160 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: not repeated that pattern of dating someone emotionally abusive. I've 161 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 1: done other things, We're always growing, but I haven't done 162 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: that one again. I do want to say, though, that 163 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: that is such a beautiful story, hardly because you were 164 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: given the gift of an open minded mother who was 165 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: willing to grow with you. But for other people listening 166 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: who may have an abusive parent where they're only ability 167 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: to heal is to completely cut off all communication with 168 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: that parent. You don't have to go back and fix 169 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: things with them to change inside yourself, and you can 170 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: use what I call the romantic objects that you pick, 171 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: because as you pick better and better ones, as I say, 172 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: you start to heal yourself. You know, I don't know 173 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: if you've ever heard this metaphor for the four stages 174 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: of personal growth. The first stages, you're walking down the street. 175 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: You don't see a hole, and you fall in it. 176 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: There's your alcoholic, abusive boyfriend. Right stage two, someone tells you, oh, 177 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: this is about your relationship with your mother, and you're 178 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: now aware of it. So stage two, as you're walking 179 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,599 Speaker 1: down that street, you see the whole this time and 180 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: you still fall in it. The third stage, that's the 181 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: second alcoholic boyfriend you get next. The third stage is 182 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: you're walking down the street, you see that whole, and 183 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: this time you very carefully walk around it thinking about 184 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: every step you take. But the fourth stage is you 185 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: take a different street. Oh yes, that is if I 186 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: get to bed fourth stage. But it's a process. It's 187 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: a process, and learning doesn't always happen in the moment. 188 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: And sometimes I have what I've learned to about relationship 189 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: that I was if igiated this guy briefly next like 190 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: two or three years ago, met this guy. I knew 191 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: immediately that he had issues. He was he was in recovery, 192 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: but he it was a mess. He was a mess. 193 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: I knew that there were issues there, but I also 194 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: knew that I needed to work something out. So I 195 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: didn't just like unmatched, blocked delete immediately. I was like, 196 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: let's just see this out, you know. And so it 197 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,239 Speaker 1: was about three months of you know, with some boundaries, 198 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: and like then I had to cut it off. But 199 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: sometimes we have to like see something through and work 200 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: it out. And I say this to friends of mine, 201 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: what do you think about that that sometimes we have 202 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: to you know, go back the hole in the street, 203 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: you know, and maybe like risk falling in. Well that's 204 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: the walking around stage, right, So watching it and walking 205 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: around stage, and I think that's a lovely concept. Now, 206 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,719 Speaker 1: not for everybody, because there are some people that just 207 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: continue to re injure themselves, and there are other people 208 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: who cut off something at the first hint that it 209 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: could be pain and their manufacturing it in their head. 210 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: So they definitely need to stay in it and walk 211 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: through a little bit. But you know, I always say 212 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 1: relationships are a gymnasium for the mind. Relationships are a 213 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: gymnasium for the mind. Explain. In other words, you don't 214 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: get stronger by sitting on a mountain and meditating alone. 215 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: We need to actually be entangled with somebody and pushing 216 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: back against them to grow bigger muscles, and the same 217 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: with your psychological muscles. So you've touched on this a 218 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: little bit. But can we change our attachment style? Are 219 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: we're always going to be anxious, once anxious, always anxious? 220 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: Or can that change? And then does knowing that can 221 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: it help us in navigate relationships better. Well, now I'm 222 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: going to get really complicated on you, because our attachment 223 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: style is actually a number of things. It's based on 224 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: the relationship we had with our mother, the relationship we 225 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: had with our father, and the relationship we witnessed between 226 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: the two of them, and that our own genes. What 227 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: if what if you had a single mom and never 228 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: knew your father like me, like I met my dad 229 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: one exactly. So there's a big empty space and a 230 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 1: hole in one piece of your love map, right, And 231 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: so the short answer is, even in present day, you 232 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 1: can have different kinds of attachments with different people. It's 233 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: not like you are doomed to have an anxious attachment 234 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: with all your friends, your work curse, and your lovers. 235 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: The dysfunction tends to show up the most in our 236 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 1: most intimate relationships. And yes, there are three kinds of relationships, 237 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: according to research, that can actually heal attachment injuries. The 238 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: first one is the therapist patient alliance. No matter what 239 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: degree your therapist has, no matter what brilliant intervention they 240 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: make during a session, that's less important to your brain 241 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: than the consistency, the fact that you know, every Friday 242 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: at ten am, good mommy's there, who's going to reflect 243 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: back to you good parent, and that shifts your attachment style. 244 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: The second one is if you're lucky enough to get 245 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: hot for somebody who happens to have a secure attachment 246 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: style and they accept our craziness, then after a while 247 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: you calm down right, So you get like the really 248 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: secure attachment guy who's like really straight and okay, and 249 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: the spinning out the drama queen who you know, come forward, 250 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: go away kind of person, or the drama queen and 251 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: he's like, you are so cute when you're doing that. 252 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: Don't worry, baby, I'm here when you want to come back. 253 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: That was my That was my last two relationships because 254 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: I very much have an anxious attachment style. And two boyfriends. 255 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: He was just so consistent and he was there and 256 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: it's soothed and then and then we had to break 257 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: up and the next one sued that even more, and 258 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: so and literally my therapist like, you're learning secure attachment. 259 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, cool. And then the third relationship is 260 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: parent child relationship because plenty of people like I myself 261 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: had an anxious attachment. So I can definitely tell you 262 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: that I had all the symptoms of it, and I 263 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: practiced attachment parenting with my girls because I used my 264 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: anxiety to be attached to them. Oh, through you being 265 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: a parent, not with your parents, but with you being 266 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: a parent, you can explain because what ends up happening is, 267 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: let's say a mom with anxious attachment style is consoling 268 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: a baby, and she's saying, you know there, to a toddler, 269 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: It's okay, baby, Mommy will always come home. Don't worry. 270 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: Mommy's gonna let's look at the clock. When the big 271 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: hand gets on the floor, Mommy's going to come back. 272 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: And here you can hold my nightgown that smells like me. 273 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: And here's your teddy bear, your transitional attachment object. And 274 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: the more she does all these things for her child 275 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: with their anxiety, consoling them, there's another brain in the 276 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: room who's also getting consoled, and that's the mom's brain. 277 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: We are self consoling at the same time as we 278 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: become good parents, we are reparenting ourselves. That cool, It's 279 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: really cool. I'm just like processing that in the moment. 280 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: It actually kind of got emotional, so I'm like just 281 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: kicking him in it. That was like, I mean, just 282 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: the idea of I'm just breathing the energy, the idea 283 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: like when you know, tin to the coccus, tin to whatever, 284 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: like my parents going to be there. It's like it's 285 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: I don't know why. That just makes me very emotional. 286 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: It is these are the most tender feelings in the 287 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: human mind. These are really tender stuff. It is the 288 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: most important motivator of human behavior that exists, and it 289 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: is the backbone of who we are because we're programmed 290 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: for connection, like we are social beings, connection and belonging 291 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: our immutable needs of human beings. Wow, that's just blowing 292 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: my mind. And attachment impacts our careers, our relationships with 293 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: co workers, our ability to manage people. It impacts our 294 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: need for power or not attachment every relationship. How what 295 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: is an attachment theory in the need for power? What's 296 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: that control? So here's the baby, right who's out of 297 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: control and doesn't have reliable parents, and so as a result, 298 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: they need to be the CEO and dominate, right, because 299 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: their parents may be narcissists or had substance abuse issues 300 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: and there was no consistency for them, so they have 301 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: this desire for control. Then you could have the other 302 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: baby who was waiting and longing all the time for 303 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: mom to come back to the crib. And there's that 304 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: employee who's always taken advantage of at work, who's just 305 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: waiting for somebody to notice them and give them a promotion. 306 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: But they're not going to actually go out and get 307 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: it because that's their normal place to be, that's their 308 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: familiar place to be longing. Wow, this is a good 309 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: time to take a little break. We'll be right back though. Okay, 310 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: that's taken care of. Let's get back to our chat. 311 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: What's kind of interesting to me as you talk about 312 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: attachment theory, there's a lens that we can sort of 313 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: filter almost everything through attachment theory in the same way 314 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: that we can through a shame lens or trauma lens. Look, 315 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: I will say this about of Americans have a secure 316 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: attachment style. There's been so much research done. People with 317 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: a secure attachment style get better grades in school, they 318 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: tend to make more money, they tend to have fewer divorces, 319 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: they tend to have fewer mental health problems physical health 320 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: as well. Know, attachment theory has been studied in relationship 321 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: to just about everything, including religiosity. God as an attachment figure. 322 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: Some people have an anxious attachment to God. I that 323 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: feels like a full episode, but I think physical piece 324 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: because you because I wanted to ask you about this, 325 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: how does attachment style affect our physical health? So here's 326 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: the sad part. When babies either fear their primary attachment figure, 327 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: or are left in states of longing for them to 328 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: come back. Their cortisol levels rise, and so lots and 329 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: lots of research has been done, long term, longitudinal research 330 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: on babies who have an insecure attachment style early in 331 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: life and later diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, because 332 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: these it's like they're in their life long in a 333 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: constant state of alert, either alert that an angry parent 334 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: will hurt them, which in adult life is the world 335 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: is against me, or that they're just in a state 336 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: of pression and anxiety and longing for a lover to 337 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: call them back, and that impacts our health. You see, 338 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: love is so good for our health. A good secure 339 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: attachment lowers our blood pressure, it lowers our heart rate, 340 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: it lowers our stress hormone cortisol level, It rises levels 341 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: of don't bemane oxytocin Europe and there from all those 342 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: feel good neuro hormones. Love is the best medicine we have. 343 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: I've always felt that, but I love hearing the research 344 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: on it. And what I'm aware of listening to that 345 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: is that that very much intersects with a lot of 346 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: the work I've been doing in my therapists over the years. 347 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: The community resiliency model and regulating my nervous system and 348 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: dealing with trauma and cortisol levels, right, and so just 349 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: be I've just been kind of aware over the past 350 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: few years that I've been in a constant sative bipe 351 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: lighter freeze that at my court is all that I 352 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking that it's started with attachment, and my 353 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: therapist is that this. But now it's like I'm still 354 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: of having an AHA in a different way where it's like, oh, okay, So, 355 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: like I I had a moment happened in in Griffith Park, 356 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: like you know, a couple of months ago, and I 357 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: was so triggered by it. And I've learned that when 358 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: it's hysterical, it's historical. So it's not about that moment, 359 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: but I'm just thinking about, Oh, it's because I've been 360 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: bullied so much in my life, and I've experienced violence 361 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: and and like I've had so many traumatizing experiences. But 362 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: even before that, it started with the attachment, even before 363 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: all the bullying, Right, So the bullying that I experienced 364 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: in school activated this sort of insecure, anxious attachment that 365 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: started when I was a baby. That's that's exactly girl. 366 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: It was the next version of it. And you know 367 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: your inability to at the time as a child, to 368 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: maybe stand up for yourself or find other connections with 369 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: people who would help make you feel secure, was that 370 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: you were just sort of reenacting what was familiar to you. 371 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: We know we have voices inside our head, right and 372 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: we're not even aware. But sometimes that voice is saying, 373 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, you're bad, you're wrong, you don't fit in 374 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: or whatever. We don't know. They're so subtle. I know 375 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: the voice very well. Yes, I did a lot of 376 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: work around the voices in my head, especially during quarantine 377 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: and I live alone. But go on, But did you 378 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: know we can actually change those voices ourselves. We can 379 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: reparent ourselves. So here's my little trick for you. Because 380 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: of and I'm going to tell you this is an 381 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: outsider first. You may not know that this is how 382 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: most people look at you. Beautiful, glamorous, brilliant, well spoken, 383 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: and an absolute survivor and crusader. You don't know that, 384 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: but that's what we see. I'm assuming you don't know 385 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: that because I'm talked to the child in you. So 386 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: every time you go in the mirror and begin your makeup. 387 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: I want you to literally say out loud into the mirror, 388 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: I am so proud of you. I'm so proud of you, Laverne, 389 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: and I want you to implant that a voice, and 390 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: if you do it every single day for months, you 391 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: will be amazed and how your brain will literally change that. 392 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: That feels like that drew to me that I'm going 393 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: to add that one. I become very aware of just 394 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 1: the thoughts because I'm alone with my thoughts a lot, 395 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: because I you know, I'm single, now, kids, now pets. 396 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: And I became aware early on in quarantine, like March 397 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: or April of the quarantine, and I was like, oh, 398 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: the negative thoughts and negative self talk is strong with 399 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: this cognitive behavioral therapists call it thoughts stopping and thought replacement. 400 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: Thought stopping and thought replacing replacement. So as soon as 401 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: you sense that thought coming in you, I'm not allowed 402 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: and then replace it with I'm so proud of you. 403 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: I love it. What my what Jennifer, my therapist says, 404 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 1: is if I slew myself down and enough to um 405 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: look at the thought, is the thought useful? Is this 406 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: thought useful? And I love that too? Stopping the thought 407 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: is great, and then if we can't stop, is this useful? 408 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: And oftentimes it's not. It's just it just re traumatizes me. 409 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: It just re and it reprograms the same neuropathways instead 410 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: of creating new neuropathways. And and I'm so proud of 411 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: you that replacing the thought, replacing the talk creates new neuropathways. 412 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: Does it literally reprograms? You know? There's a guy I 413 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: think he's at the University of Kansas. I interview him 414 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: a lot. He's a neuroscientist who actually puts people live, 415 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: people who brains and m r I machines and he 416 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: hasn't even just think about their loved one. And he 417 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: can tell by what parts of the brain light up 418 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: if they have a secure attachment style or not, whether 419 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: it's associated with stress centers, fear centers, and love centers. 420 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: It's real. I kind of want to do that. Where 421 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: does he do this? Now? I'm serious. It's been so 422 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: interesting for me lately thinking about the brain and then 423 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: the chemistry of all of it. It's so interesting. I mean, 424 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: you said, there three elements is biological, sociological, and psychological. 425 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: Every human behavior has all three. So one has to 426 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: do with our mind's manifestation of what happened. That's our psychology. 427 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: Then there's a biological ramification of what happened. But also 428 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: nothing happens without being in a social world, so you know. 429 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: And and so for people who don't fit into their 430 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: current social culture, they have such high rates of mental 431 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: health issues. And it's not there's nothing wrong with them, 432 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: it's just that there's this big social factor because somebody decided, 433 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, you don't fit in on this year, you're 434 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: not in fashion. And I think, you know, I feel 435 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: like you're kind of almost reading my mind a little bit, 436 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: because I I know from my own experiences that I've 437 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: made different choices, I've changed energetically, and I've attracted different 438 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: kinds of people. I've really they have, so that is 439 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: the truth. But I also but I also am considered 440 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: attractive by certain cultural sort of standards. I you know, 441 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: I'm not. There's a lot of other factors that are 442 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: aesthetic that are systemic around race, colorism, size, age, that 443 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: are also factors. So in terms of the attachment lens 444 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: or in relationships, what would you say about all of 445 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: the sort of discriminatory things that happen around like women 446 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: of a certain age, or women of a certain size 447 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: or color. I'm always talking about women, but it's not 448 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: just women, it's LGBTQ people in the gay community. What 449 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: would you and through an attachment lens or whatever lens 450 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: you have, what what what are your thoughts on those 451 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,719 Speaker 1: sorts of things that are not really about us? Right? Um, 452 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: it's I'm not responsible for somebody else's racism. But you 453 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: have to understand that human survival since the history of 454 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: our species has been paramount on us being accepted by 455 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: the village. Right, so our d this fear is being 456 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: shunned by the village, literally left in the wilderness to die, 457 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: being eaten by a lion, or not having enough food. 458 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: We survived because we we are a cooperative species who 459 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: have cooperative breeding, and we share food and we share childcare. 460 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, every other primate of try to take a 461 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: newborn baby from a chimman zie, you will be murdered 462 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: in a second. But yet a human will hand their 463 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: newborn to a total stranger in a hospital room. So 464 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: so what happens is if somebody comes into the world 465 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: with a genetic predisposition to be different than whatever that 466 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: cultural norm is for a very long time, their only 467 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: choice was to suffer in silence because their survival was 468 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: paramount on being accepted. But now we've reached a place 469 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: of such I mean, I know people don't believe it, 470 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: but such enormous wealth. If you think about it, even 471 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: a hundred years, their entire life and your day was 472 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: spent procuring enough food or enough money for food, right, 473 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: and that's all we thought about. Now it's about which 474 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: kind of designer shoes. And we don't even need food. 475 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: We're trying to not a feat too much food. In general. 476 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: If as the species globally we're actually doing better survival wise, 477 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that there aren't disparities and there aren't 478 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: starving children in America today. So as a result, those 479 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: people don't need the tribe. In addition, the tribe has 480 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: gotten so darn big that there are million subsections of 481 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: the tribe and so people who come into the world 482 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: genetically not matching the particular tribe can find their own people, 483 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: or they can fight to dribe and try to change 484 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: the rules. And we are seeing all of the above 485 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: happen in our culture right now. It is actually a 486 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: time of really great freedom. It is a time where 487 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: more people have a voice. You know, if I can 488 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: say only one thing about the commonality that we all 489 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: have as human beings is the social revolutions that have 490 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: happened and l g P t Q, trans life, Black 491 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: lives Matter, etcetera. And there are a group of Americans 492 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: that are playing catch up, and progress happened really really 493 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: fast for them, and many of them survived by having 494 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: very strict rules in their life, rules about religion, rules 495 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: about gender, rules about jobs, who gender roles, men do this, 496 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: women do this, whatever. And so this progress has come 497 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: on fast and furious. And there are groups of Americans 498 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: who are not bad people who misspeak and get canceled 499 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: as they're trying to play catchup, and they are angry. 500 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: They use words like, oh, you know, we don't have 501 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: to be political correct. And so the leader that they 502 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: chose was the most politically incorrect leader because he spoke 503 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: to that piece of them that was unacceptable to the culture, 504 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: and so they had an attachment to him. Yeah, and 505 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: I talked with Bernie Brown about this. We've sorted ourselves 506 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: to such an extent that we don't usually get to 507 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: interact with people who might have different backgrounds and different beliefs. 508 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: You know, Bernie Brown says its heart to hate, close up, 509 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: lean in, you know. And I'm hanging out with someone 510 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: now who has different political beliefs, and it has been 511 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: very challenging and in a really good way, in a 512 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: really loving way, because it's challenging me to be more 513 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: empathetic and to practice what I've been preaching for years 514 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: around having difficult conversations around different Okay, it's that time again. 515 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: A lot more is coming though. Alrighty, we're back. There's 516 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: something I wanted to ask you, because lot of research 517 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: out there talks about relationships and dating that tense to 518 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, men do this because they're looking for 519 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: a woman who's going to be able to have children, 520 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: and women do this because they're looking for someone who's 521 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: going to be a provider or be smart enough, you know, 522 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: um to provide. And all that feels so hetero sexist 523 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: to me. I always think, like, what about the gay 524 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: and lesbian people, and what about a trans people? And 525 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: where do LGBTQ people fit into there? Okay, So I 526 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: want to remind everybody that you know, I'm an evolutionary 527 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: psychologist and the history of our species. They're always were 528 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: gay by and trans people in some cultures around the 529 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: world in some ways speak absolutely okay. So this is 530 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: not like a new invention of humanity. It's just a 531 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: more vocal invention so that we're aware of. So when 532 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: I talk in terms that sound heteronormal, I want to 533 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: remind people who are in between the wonderful scale, whether 534 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: it's the Kinsey scale, when have you, that you know, 535 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: in some ways you have the freedom because you don't 536 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: have culture saying these are your gender roles, you must 537 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: do it. You have the freedom to construct your relationships 538 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: the way you want to. Also, we're evolving. I mean, 539 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: there was a great article I think it was in 540 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: the New York Times, and I did a segment on 541 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: my show that it was like, how to make your 542 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: marriage happier, make it more gay, and it was about 543 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: getting rid of some of the strict gender ideas in 544 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: a relationship. But even if somebody is on the Kinsey 545 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: scale more gay than not, say I think we're all 546 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: programmed to be by by the way, depending on the situation, 547 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: then that person still has stopped up a few messages 548 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: from their family of origin of a gender role, and 549 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: indeed because of either their hormonal expression, they may have 550 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: more feminine or masculine qualities that come along genetically. Right, 551 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: So we know that gender is a little bit biological 552 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: and a lot cultural, and biological sex as a huge 553 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: range of variations based on the sex chromosomes that you know, 554 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: we know at least seventy different variations of the sex 555 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: chromosomes alone, and so there is this human variation biologically 556 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: and that expresses itself in sometimes more feminine or masculina 557 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: to use those tired terms of wants, needs, desires, or characteristics. So, 558 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: having said that, where does l g pt Q fit in, 559 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: they are They fit in everywhere across the span. You 560 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: know you're gonna see gay couples who have the most 561 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: traditional gender roles that you've ever seen in your life, 562 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: and you're gonna have others that have more equitable peer 563 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: relationships when it comes to their gender roles, and the 564 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: same with sexuality. However, having said that, evolution has evolved 565 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: in us all the tools needed to keep the species 566 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: alive by procreating. So back in the day, when I 567 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: tell you that there were always l g pt que people, 568 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean the gay people didn't have babies. They 569 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: still did and we also know that the evolution of 570 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: homosexuality in our species partly is because we are cooperative breeders. 571 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: In other words, if you had a gay brother or sister, 572 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: you got to have more babies yourself because he was 573 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: there protecting and feeding it as well. And guess what, 574 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: he or she was also nurturing their own genes in 575 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: their nieces and nephews, so the genes stay alive. Fascinating. 576 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it. 577 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: A lot of the conversation gets very heteronormative and and 578 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: it's it's something I noticed, but that's awesome. Pheromones. What's 579 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: deep from me is like if a guy does not 580 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: smell right, it's over for me, Like it's over. And 581 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: I think you said for women, I think is that 582 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: smell is like and I'm not I'm a trans woman, 583 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: but smell is so huge for me, for both particularly women, 584 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 1: but for all genders. So what pheromones do is they 585 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: indicate immune system genes. So back in our hunter gather pass, 586 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: when we weren't taking showers every single day, we were 587 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: pretty fragrant, and we learned that our brothers and sisters 588 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: did not smell so good to us, and we did 589 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: not want to mate with them, partly because they shared 590 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: the same immune genes. In other words, they had immunities 591 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: for the same group of diseases that we did, because 592 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: we're genetically close. Right. So here's the interesting thing. When 593 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: two humans get together and procreate, they may take blue 594 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: eyes from one, long legs from another, brown hair from another, 595 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: except immune system genes. Immune system genes combine to make 596 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: a stronger superhuman. So when this hunter wandered into our 597 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: village from another tribe as he was off hunting, I'm 598 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: telling you, he smelled delicious. If we'd only been spelling 599 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: our brothers and cousins at that point. This guy came 600 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: in and we were, oh, my good news. Who was 601 00:34:53,160 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: that man? And so we can determine reproductive fitness through smell. 602 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: Wow wow. And I don't have children, but the smell 603 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: is very important. That is so interesting and so fascinating. 604 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: There's research to show that if couples have a desperate 605 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: a different immune system, they actually have longer term relationships. 606 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: They have better sex that lasts for longer. Um. I 607 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,919 Speaker 1: love that, So so I should really like lean into 608 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: like the smell even more that I love that that's amazing. 609 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: It's your body telling you what's good for you. Yes, 610 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: And I think that the big thing is like how 611 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: do we listen? So much of my work right now 612 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: is like, really, how do I listen to my body more? 613 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: How do I because my body is talking to me, 614 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: how do I listen to it more and honor and 615 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: instance of being an opposition with it? And I think 616 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: that goes for just you know, being by myself, and 617 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: then also for relationships we should be wrapping up. Is 618 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: there anything else you want to say to the people 619 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: out there about all pheromones, attachment style, all the things 620 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: we've been talking about today. I just want to say this. 621 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: First of all, thank you so much for having me on. 622 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 1: I've always been a huge fan of yours, So I'm 623 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 1: gonna fan girl for a moment and say that I'm 624 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: just so grateful you're on the planet. I just want 625 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: you to know that I appreciate that. But secondly, I 626 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: want everyone else to know that to not give up 627 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: hope that love is here. There are different kinds of love. 628 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: Don't let your culture tell you that it has to 629 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: be you know, swinging from the chandelier sex. There are 630 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: plenty of people who have mature companion at love who 631 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: for physiological reasons or whatever, may not be having sex, 632 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: but they're having lots of closeness and cuddling and getting 633 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: dopamine from their hugs and kisses. Um. There's so many 634 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: different ways that human beings can connect with each other. 635 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: There is somebody there who will love you and respect 636 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: you the way you deserve, but not until you do 637 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: it first, you cannot. We can only love others as 638 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: much as we love ourselves. Or how you going to 639 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: love somebody else if you don't love yourself? Can I 640 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: get amen in here? Exactly? Amen in Thank you so much, 641 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: Dr Wendy. Will we like to end this podcast with 642 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: a question what else is true? And this actually comes 643 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: from my therapeutic work in the community resiliency model, from 644 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: the idea of both and and Basically, it's it's like, 645 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 1: when things are really, really, really difficult in our lives, 646 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: that is one thing, but then there's something else that 647 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: is true. We can be in the space of both 648 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: and and what else is true is what is a 649 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: thing that helps you get through? What else is true? 650 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: For you? Dr Wendy to die, I think the thing 651 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: that helps me get through is the question why. Every 652 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: single day, at every single moment, I'm saying, why, why 653 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: do they do that? Why is that? Like that? Who 654 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: created that? Why? And keeping my brain and my nickname 655 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: is Nerd Barbie in a Nerd Barbie case where I'm 656 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: constantly investigating human behavior just keeps me going. It's so 657 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: fascinating to me. I love that. And I love that 658 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: because of another therapist of mine who said, we're not 659 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: living in reality when we make positive or negative predictions 660 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: of the future, when we're ruminating on the past, when 661 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: we're reading minds, and she says, our work is to 662 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: stay present, curious, and non judgmental. So the why is 663 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: the curiosity. And I think the why and the curiosity 664 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: keeps this in the present moment too. Yeah. Yes, And 665 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: it also makes me very forgiving of everybody and their behavior. 666 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: I don't get Piste off because and I was like, ha, 667 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: why were shot a bit? What happened there in her life? 668 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: Like I never I don't get mad at people. I'm 669 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: more trying to understand people who think differently than me 670 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: or act differently. I love it. I love it. This 671 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: was so amazing. I'm gonna need to listen to this 672 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: because you said so much that I need to like 673 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: take notes so I can practice all this. Thank you 674 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: so much, Dr Wendy Walsh. M TILM till is your podcast. 675 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: The podcast is Mating Matters and you can follow me 676 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: anywhere on my social media at Dr Wendy Walsh Perfect. 677 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: How could you not want to go listen to Mating 678 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: mad after this incredible conversation. Thank you so much, Thank you. 679 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: By Wow. There are a few moments when I felt 680 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: like I was in a therapy session which felt very vulnerable. 681 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: Um at that moment when she talked about letting her 682 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: baby know that, like it tend to be our mommy 683 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: is going to be there. I don't know why that 684 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: like just hit me in my gut. Um. What I 685 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: know for sure is there's a little kid in me 686 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: that still needs my mommy. And that spoke deeply to 687 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: the little kid in me. And there's a little kid 688 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: in all of us that needs nurturing. And I love 689 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: having it reaffirmed by Dr Walsh that we can reparent ourselves, 690 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: that we can be reparented through friendships and romantic relationships, 691 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: and we can reparent ourselves as we parent our own children. 692 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: That's amazing and it just reminds me of something a 693 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: dear friend of mine said to me many years ago 694 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: when I a struggling, and he said, it's never too 695 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: late to have a happy childhood. Isn't amazing. It's never 696 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: too late to have a happy childhood. And the way 697 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: I interpret that is that it is never too late 698 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: to give the child within us the love and nurturing 699 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: that she needs. So yeah, I'll leave you with that, 700 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: It's never too late. I love you. Thank you for 701 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Join me next week 702 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: for my epic conversation with the original trans supermodel, Tracy 703 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: Africa Norman. I walk in the footsteps of many women, 704 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: but Tracy's courageous modeling career in the nineteen seventies has 705 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: provided a blueprint for breaking barriers. You don't want to 706 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: miss it. Please rate reviews, subscribe and share with everyone 707 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: you know. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter 708 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. 709 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: Until next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox 710 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: Show is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with 711 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland, audio visit the 712 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 713 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.