1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hi there, It's Steve Fishman, and this may be a 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: good time to mention that you can listen to all 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: episodes of Get the Money and Run ad free by 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: subscribing to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple just to ninety 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: nine a month. So today we've got a treat. We've 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: got Joe Lawyer with us to answer your questions in 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: mine and thanks to those of you who sent questions 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: in just to add some sense of Joe these days. 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: After nearly a decade in prison, Joe went on to 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: write a book about his life. It's called The Man 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: Who Outgrew his Prison Cell, and the New Yorker called 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: it thrilling. Joe also turned himself into a consultant for Hollywood, 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: writing scripts and consulting on bank robbery movies like Baby 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: Driver and the upcoming Baby Driver Too. All right, let's 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: jump into it. 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: I'm you know, it's unfortunate. You know, I did a 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: lot of shit, so a lot of things. I was 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 2: raised a peacher's son, so that gave me a whole 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: sense of like how to tell stories with some moral depth. 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: And then I was a storyteller, so I got me. 21 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: Since I was a little kid, I was been telling 22 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 2: little Bible stories. So I've perfected I feel like my 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: storytelling style. So I feel like that's the trick. You 24 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: have to be you. You have to be authentic, and 25 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: then that's what works. And I think it and I 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: think that. The other thing too is I like to 27 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 2: fucking laugh, and I liked to watch other people laugh, 28 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: and I just fucking love I am so like that 29 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: to me is that's my sweet spot. I want to 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: be as vulgar and tell crazy, wild, violent, bloody, baroquely 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: but bloody stories. But I also want to tell you 32 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: all these absurd things that people do and I've seen 33 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: do and weird shit and that'll make you laugh. So 34 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: I'm like, that's I have to tell you. Joe. 35 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: You know, one of your great talents is you make 36 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: you make bank robbery seem like a lot of fun. 37 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: All right, so let me jump in now. So uh 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: uh uh, you just make me think bank robbery was fun. 39 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: Question mark, Okay, let's be clear. Bank robbery in retrospect 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: is fun. You know, like I can walk in a 41 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: lot of rooms and I'm the bank robbery. It makes 42 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: me kind of unimpeachably cool in some ways, even as 43 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: an old man. It's like, oh, that dude rub the banks, 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: thirty banks. So there's something about that makes it like 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: I can tell these stories with humor. But in order 46 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: to get to these stories, you remember, I had to 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: do seven years in federal penitentiary and that was no fun. 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: And you can't parse out bank robbery without that, because 49 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: there is a fucking thing that goes with it, and 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: that's the doing the time to get you to reflect 51 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: on these stories. So I get to the fun part 52 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: of the red. You know, looking back at crime stories, 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: I mean bank robbery, when are you're when you're in it, 54 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 2: you know, it's compulsion, it's it's uh, it's disassociation in 55 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: many ways. I mean, if we're being like right where 56 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 2: you are in it, it's not fun, it's it's fulfilling 57 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: in that you. I am my most I was my 58 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: most effect effective self. I was the least effectual male 59 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: I ever was when I was robbing banks, because I 60 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: was the most effective I've ever did. I married my greed, 61 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: my rage, put it together, went in there, got the money, 62 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: walked out, and and did what I wanted to do, 63 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: and oftentimes several times a day. So that made me 64 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: feel purposeful and that made me feel complete, But fun 65 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: was not the part of it, especially when you're running 66 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: away with smoke billowing out of a bag because a 67 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: die pack has exploded and you and you got and 68 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: you have tear gas in your eyes. It's not necessarily 69 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: fun that in that regard, but in retrospect, when you 70 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: can put in all the different ironies, like the time 71 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: that the cops picked me up and I got away 72 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: with it, and all the different things that I saw 73 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: that I can laugh about now, like the woman who 74 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: I went to robber and she immediately just started giving 75 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 2: money before I was even finished with my spiel. 76 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: To me. 77 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 2: That was funny in retrospect because I thought, why did 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: she give it? I didn't even tell her, and then 79 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: she started giving me the big bills first. So I'm 80 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: thinking later, like, you know, it's funny. Your boyfriend probably say, 81 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: hey man, I'm going to send this guy named Sancho 82 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: in and he's gonna come to rob you, and when 83 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: he doesn't, just give him all the money, give him 84 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: the big bills first. I felt like she miss like 85 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: mistook me for a guy who was part of another 86 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: came for that was supposed to go on after me. 87 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 2: Because she just saw me. I came up and she 88 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: just started handing me the money when I said, this 89 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: is a bank robbery. So like in retrospect, certainly those 90 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: things are funny to me because I can impose, you know, 91 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: some story on it. But it was peculiar, certainly peculiar, 92 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 2: Like that was wild. 93 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: Joe, did you feel that you were this could go 94 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: on forever or did you feel did you come to 95 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: know that you were going to get caught? 96 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 2: This is a good question because I think that what 97 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: it implies is that the regular frame of mind is 98 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 2: in play, so that you know when you're when you 99 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: and I are sitting here, we're thinking what's going to 100 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: happen tomorrow. I'm going to do this thing tomorrow, and 101 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: I better I better make sure I have enough gas 102 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: because I'm going to go to Oregon. Like we plan 103 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 2: day to day, week to week. And when you're asking 104 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: that question, you're asking it from that place. But you 105 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: have to understand one of the reasons I was able 106 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: to do what I was able to do. I have 107 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: no feel for the future, none at all, no posterity. 108 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: Most criminals don't, which is what makes them impulsive. Because 109 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: if we thought about the future. We don't want to 110 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: go to prison, we don't want to spend ten to 111 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 2: fifteen years. Who does Nobody chooses that. But we're always 112 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: on the route there. So how do you get to 113 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: the route there if you don't want to be there. 114 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 2: The way you do is you don't think about it. 115 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: And the way you don't think about it is you 116 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: think I could die tomorrow. I don't give a fuck. 117 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: I could die when I go rob this bank. I 118 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: don't know, and you don't care. Nobody's putting away money 119 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: for the ten years when you're treasury bund you will, 120 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: you know, will yield your money. Nobody gives a fuck 121 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: about that. We're not talking about people, and certainly not me, 122 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: who has any grasp of the future. The one thing 123 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: I don't want to do is sit down there and 124 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: be a drag on my initiative by thinking, oh, what 125 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 2: happens if I get caught? Who fuck that? There's none 126 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 2: of that which allows me to just be living in 127 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: the moment, in the present. I'm mad I get fucked. 128 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: Up, Joe, just to get to some details that you 129 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: know we've had come in here. Well went through your 130 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: head when you were picking out your first disguise for Dora, 131 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: trench code, sunglasses. 132 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 2: If you look at the bank robbery photos, there might 133 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: be seven that are out there, and most of them 134 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 2: if you could see, I'm like just wearing clothes that 135 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: I had. The first bank robbery iore, I wore jeans 136 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: with ripped, ripped jeans and a Mickey Mouse t shirt 137 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: like the first one I did in nineteen eighty eight. 138 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: I just wore what I was and I never wore 139 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: a mask, never wore like a disguise, like so you 140 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 2: couldn't see it was it wasn't me, right, I didn't 141 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: I didn't care, So it wasn't like I was wearing 142 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: a disguise. I was just wearing clothes, and the nicer 143 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: clothes I got, like I had a look. I liked 144 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: to dress nicely. I wore suspenders, I wore cloks. I 145 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: wore cohon loafers with cassels. So you see the most 146 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: iconic one of me is walking out there with my suit, 147 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: my trenchcoat, my my loafers, and I just robbed a vault. 148 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: But yeah, someone once or twice it were for Dora. Well, 149 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: you know, sometimes I wore sunglasses, but it wasn't really 150 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: like I was trying to disguise myself in that regard, 151 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: but I was always trying Towards the end, I was 152 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: trying to wear nice clothes. 153 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: So you got married when you got out of prison, right, Yeah. 154 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: People were wondering just about your relationship with your wife 155 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: around your past. So did she get tired of hearing 156 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: about it? Did she get tired of Joe Lawyer the 157 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: bank rubber? Or did maybe she thought it was just 158 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: sexy as hell. 159 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, But one of the reasons I liked liked her 160 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: was when I got out of prison. Obviously, Hollywood can't 161 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: call it. Oh, can you come and talk to us 162 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: for doing a movie? What do you think about this? 163 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: And you know, there was a sense in which I 164 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: felt like I was Joe the bank robber, but I 165 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: was trying to turn myself into Joe the writer. So 166 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: I was writing op eds and I was doing that 167 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: kind of thing. But my wife was introduced to me 168 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: through my best friend at the time. She was a 169 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 2: woman in offe uh. And my wife was not so 170 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: interested in the bank robberies that she was interested that 171 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: My writing mentor was Richard Rodriguez. Rich rod was kind 172 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: of a controversial figure in the Mexican American community, Latino 173 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: Mexican American human, mostly because he had been a SKay 174 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: guy who had been Catholic, gay guy who was against 175 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: a firntive action and English is a second language teacher. 176 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: He was like a conservative Mexicine. But he was my mentor. 177 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: We would had a two year correspondence in prison, and 178 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: he was well known. He was a great writer, like 179 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: published in Harper's and everything that was more fascinating to her, 180 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: and so my bank rubbery. Actually really she wasn't that interested. 181 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: When we got we would start getting to say, Hey, 182 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: how's your dad, how's your brother? What? She never asked 183 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: about what I was writing about anything. She's just and 184 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: I remember a couple of years later, within a couple 185 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: of years, still we would go to parties. I would 186 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 2: hear her people to how many banks Robin. I could 187 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: hear her say, I don't know, I think seven or 188 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: her age. Never she didn't know how many years I 189 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: was in prison. I subsequently, you know, my wife and 190 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: I were separated now now after about twenty years, but 191 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,239 Speaker 2: being together. But I've had girlfriends who like they're meticulous 192 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: about understanding my biography right, and a lot of friends 193 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 2: who knew it, but my wife, she just wanted to 194 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: know who I was. She cared for me for me, 195 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: and that was one of the reason I was hugely 196 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: attracted in the beginning, because the bankrut yourself just missed her. 197 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: She was like, yeah, okay, I know who you are 198 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: as a new man, as a reformed guy. You know 199 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: that's cool? 200 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: And how about you doing? You have one kid? 201 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: I have a nineteen year old daughter right now. 202 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what did you explain to her about your past? 203 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: And when just a good question. I like this question. Well, 204 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: kids are really smart in ways that we forget because 205 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: we're so far away from being little kids. But kids 206 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: pick up stuff in the air. And right when she 207 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: was about seven, she started asking me questions like we 208 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 2: saw a Brinks truck out front of a Safeware the morning. 209 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 2: She's like, what what is what is that? Is? Is 210 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: that the thing that has money? I was like, yeah, 211 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: do you know anyone who's ever robbed them those kind 212 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: of things? And I looked at her like, why, what 213 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: where did that come from? I She's seven. So finally, 214 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 2: at age seven, when this comes up, I realized she 215 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: started bringing up like robbery. A couple of times, and 216 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: I told my wife, I say, I think she knows something. 217 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: She must have heard something for somebody's parents at school, 218 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: or somebody's somebody's kid who heard their parents talking about me. 219 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 2: Who knows how she got it in her head about 220 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 2: bank robby. So my wife and I we took her 221 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: out to have froyo, her favorite froyo. We went apart. 222 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: We did the thing where we were all like when 223 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: when at that age it's all yummy, you know, it's 224 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: like you're just with the family, it's a great day. 225 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: And then I sat her down and say, hey, you know, 226 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: I got somebody to tell you. You know, you know 227 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: I always go in prisons, and you know I'm a writer. 228 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 2: And then I show on my book I wrote about 229 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: how this time when I was young, I messed up 230 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: and I robbed banks and I went to prey and 231 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: then she says, you did you have to pee in 232 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: a pot? Said no, I said I wasn't in a 233 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: French medieval, seventeenth century medieval in prison. No, that regular chilett. 234 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: And we laughed and we laughed, and then it was gone. 235 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: Like she was she was young. I didn't need to 236 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: sit with it heavy with her in that moment to 237 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: vulge Ermany, I just said, so, I wrote this book, 238 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: I changed my life. I met your mommy, I came 239 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: out of prison. And as you go older, let's begin 240 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: of the conversation. We'll talk about it more. As you 241 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: have questions, just ask me. And that's how it happened. 242 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: And they said, okay, can we go play or do 243 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: something else? And we did. 244 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: Wow, that's a great story. It's a little parenting tip. 245 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: So jumping around, Joe, people want to know about Baby Driver. 246 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: So you are hired as a consultant on Baby Driver, 247 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: and I'm just curious, like, do you have to say, well, 248 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: what do you guys say or do you need to 249 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: course correct or give me some sense of the dynamic 250 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: there with you the expert. 251 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: To be honest with you is It's funny. I think 252 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: the way I met Edgar may it made it easy 253 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: for me because when I met Edgar, they called me 254 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: first and they said, hey, there's a young writer who 255 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: needs he's stuck on a piece. He's like fifty pages 256 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 2: in the script. It's about to get Away Driver. And 257 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: I was like, all right, cool, I'll talk to him, 258 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: and they said cool, and they sent me up I'm 259 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 2: coming Alan next week. They say, great, you can meet him. 260 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: I'm an hour from LA from the conference on there, 261 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: so you're going to be meet Edgar Wright. At this time, 262 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: I'm like, wait, wait, wait, this is Edgar Wright, like 263 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 2: one of my favorite directors. They didn't tell me who 264 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: it was. They just said, like some young writer. I'm 265 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: thinking some little, you know, first script writer kind of thing. 266 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: And this is baby, this is Edgar who had done 267 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: already Shana the Dead and Hot Fuzzs and Hot Fuzzs 268 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: one of my favorite movies. I'm going to see him. 269 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: When I get there. We start talking movies. All we're 270 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: talking to movies because he's he loves movies. I love movies. 271 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: And we just start talking movies and we're talking movies 272 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: and we're talking We're not even talking about a script, 273 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: we're not even talking about any of that. We're talking movies, movies, movies, 274 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: and we just we just connect like like as movie lovers. 275 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: And then at one point I'm like, hey, dude, we 276 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: could sit here and talk still, or I could just 277 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: take you some banks I rob and you can see 278 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: how I got away. And he was like, I said, 279 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: which one. He's like the latter, let's do that. And 280 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: so I took him and so I get to show 281 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: him who I was. Do. I take him out of 282 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: the car. I did this, I came here. They walked out, 283 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: and I followed me. I I scared them. I just 284 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: I show him how I how I did it, like 285 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: how I did it, what I was thinking on. And 286 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: that's what earned me his trust that when it came 287 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: to this, I'm not some guy who did it, and 288 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: I know how it relates to movies, and I know 289 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: the cinematic quality of what I'm preparing him to look 290 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: at it that way. So he says, well, I'm going 291 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: to start sending you my script. I'm going to start 292 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 2: sending you writing, and like pretty quickly, two three days later, 293 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 2: he starts sending me writing. So I'm on a script consultant. 294 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: I'm a technical consultant. I'm doing all the things. And 295 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: basically I would tell him this, you're looking for this 296 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: character to be this from what I read, I would 297 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 2: hold his standard up. You say, he's this guy, he's 298 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: a shot caller. Well, if you have these guys under 299 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: here always saying shit to him, he can't be a 300 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: shot caller. They will diminish him. A shot caller would. 301 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: If one guy just says one thing, he's gotta slam 302 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: him down, so all the other ones look and say, 303 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: oh shah, we don't want to do that, and fuck you, 304 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: you're stupid for trying. Like I was trying to show 305 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: him the dynamics of it, which he had no feel for. 306 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 2: He's a sweet guy from the world, you know, England, 307 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: so it's a great filmmaker. But so I would do. 308 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: I would tell him, here's the standard you've said that 309 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: you want for him, and these things don't meet that standard. 310 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: You have to have these characters around to be this, 311 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: and he would make all these such an adjustment. And 312 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: then when technically one of the third bank robbery, he 313 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: Sony came back and said, does it have to be 314 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: a bank robbery where they have two? And he said, 315 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: I don't know, what do you think, Joe? And I said, well, 316 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: I'll give you a bank robbery that I'll give you 317 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: a robbery of a post office that I wanted to do. 318 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 2: And that way, if it ever, if I ever backslide, 319 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: I won't go be able to rob that because it'll 320 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: be the robbery that I wanted to do. So I actually, 321 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: let's have rob a post office, and they did. He 322 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: gave me the gig to play the guard who ends 323 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: up getting shot in that by Jamie Fox. I actually 324 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: was I actually played that role. 325 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah fantastic. So uh and you you ended up being fan. 326 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: I mean people who have listened to get the money 327 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: and run one of the things they wanted to know 328 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: about baby Drivers. You ended up being a fan of 329 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: the final product absolutely, Like is there a movie that 330 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: just has gotten the heist totally wrong? Like one that's 331 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: laughable in how it understands bank robbery. 332 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 2: Johnny Depp and Public Enemies, and he makes it look 333 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 2: on sexy. He comes over the counter. He's got his 334 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: coat flint said Fedora on he's got his Tommy gun 335 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: like and then that looks like like that looks like 336 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: it could be a robbery. Closer robbery would look like 337 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: I do remember I was watching that movie Public Enemies, 338 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 2: and Johnny Depp jumps over that counter, so it's a 339 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 2: famous scene. Puts one hand over the counter, hops over. 340 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: He looks like a cape crusader because his coat's coming over. 341 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: And I looked at that and I remember, I swear 342 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 2: to God this happened I was like, God, damn, that's 343 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 2: so sexy. That's a sexy thing. And then I was like, 344 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 2: wait a fucking minute, man, that was me. I was 345 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: like thinking, like, man, it'd be cool to be a 346 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: bank robber, and I'd forgotten for a split second that 347 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: that was me, that I wore the trench coat at 348 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: the Fedra I was a bank robber, because it was 349 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: like so so far from my experience. Now, you know that, 350 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: for a minute, I forgot that I actually owned that 351 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 2: fucking status, that fucking moment, you know. 352 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right. So one of the things in Get 353 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: the Money and Run is you capture so beautifully and frighteningly, frankly, 354 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: the rage that you used, you harnessed and kind of 355 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: recreated is the superpower. 356 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 2: What I'm wondering is. 357 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: Does that rage ever surface today? 358 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's not like that. I'm not young 359 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: and dumb and full of cum kind of thing like you. 360 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: Like I said, I don't have that impulsivity. I have 361 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: a family. You know, I think I've made too many 362 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 2: choices about my future. I've had to invest a lot 363 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 2: of times again, things done so that another thing could happened, 364 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: or that thing could come to fruition and open up 365 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: door like i've I've already danced with my posterity well 366 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: for many, many years, and I made a commitment to 367 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: try and be a better human being. So I did 368 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: a lot of work on my soyle so that that unadulterated, pristine, 369 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: crystal clear diamond fucking sharp rage doesn't exist in me 370 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:26,239 Speaker 2: an expression anymore. What it did, it became diffuse, And 371 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: so I eat my feelings because I know one thing. 372 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: My body knows one thing and will never forget this. 373 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: My body never forgets that if someone was coming to me, 374 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 2: I'd go right at them just I knew that. I 375 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: don't care. I'm fearless. I'm gonna go at you. I'm 376 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: gonna try and take out your I'm gonna stab you, 377 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: I'm gonna imprison you have to like be this person. 378 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: My body doesn't forget all the years that I spent 379 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 2: committeing violence, treachery, innocent. So I know there's a lot 380 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: of things that I know it can do. It knows 381 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: it can do and has done. So what what that 382 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 2: means is I came out into a world where I 383 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: can't do that, and my body has to live with that. 384 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 2: If I've described it as imagine you come into the community. 385 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: You're driving with your nice fast car that can go, 386 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 2: that's already gone like one hundred and sixty on the Autobahn, 387 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: and you're driving this community. It's like, uh uh, the 388 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 2: cops pull you over. You got to park that right here. 389 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: You can't drive that. We all take up these really small, 390 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: slow battery powered like golf cart, slow things like a 391 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: little bus. That's how we all travel, or we walk. 392 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 2: And you know you have speed right there, and these 393 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 2: roads could handle your speed, but you have to do 394 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: what everyone else does. You got to line up in 395 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: a line and get these slow moving things that everybody 396 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 2: else does. That's what it feels like to be me, 397 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 2: because I was able to once just plow through with 398 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: this power of mine drive and by my rage. So 399 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 2: that has made it hard on me at several moments 400 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 2: in time when my body was like, Joe, we can 401 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: do this, let's do let's let's do this, and I 402 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: had to override it with my morality. Now you know, 403 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 2: I have to say I don't do that. Well, this 404 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 2: thing comes up and revs so high in me, and 405 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: it takes so much to shove that shit down just. 406 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 2: I'm talking a handful of times over the twenty nine 407 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: years I've been out, but it's been a handful of times. 408 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 2: It's been the dark knight of the soul where I 409 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: was like fuck and by the time it was over, 410 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 2: I just fucking just. I did not treat myself. I 411 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: was like, live with shame, embarrassment, I felt like a 412 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: coward whatever. And so over the years, I feel like 413 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: I've just eaten my feet. I think that the eighty 414 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: pounds overweight I am is because there's five men walking 415 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: around who don't have any holes in them. That's why 416 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: I have eighty pounds on me. And I feel like 417 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: I feel like I can't do what I used to 418 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 2: do and feel the feel, the agency and the power 419 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 2: of that because I've committed to this life. That said, 420 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 2: there is a way, you know, pressure busts of pipe. 421 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 2: So I have to get rid of that somehow. So 422 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: I write some really dark fucking crime stories and I 423 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 2: commit a lot of mayhem to my characters on the 424 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: page a lot. And like I said, I'm baroque fucking shit, primitive, 425 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 2: fucking shit, medieval all day long. I'm one of the 426 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 2: scenes in Queen of the South is in the episode. 427 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: The episode I wrote was that that there's a scene 428 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: that I wrote was at the there's just one a 429 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: guy who was like a Luca Brozi guy. He goes 430 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 2: out to kill someone, he gets killed, and his boss 431 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: who sent him out to kill the enemy, ends up 432 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 2: with the enemy who survived, and he's offering them tacos, 433 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: and our guy scared, like, oh shit, I sent my 434 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 2: Luca Bronzi. I don't know where my Luca Bronzi is. 435 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: And this guy now is alive and he's trying to 436 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: be friendly to me. What the fuck is this? Well, 437 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 2: the focos he's giving him. When he looks at the 438 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 2: spit through the clouds and the scenes that he's making 439 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: them shaving out the got an different some meat for him, 440 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 2: he realizes that that thing has boots on it and 441 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: it's his Luca Bronzi's is on the spit, spinty, and 442 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: they're shaving his fresh off him. So that's where my 443 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: rage goes. My rage goes to scenes like this that 444 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: are really dark and terrible and violent and vulgar and 445 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: scary and full of horror and terror. But also, you know, 446 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: I write comedy stuff, but. 447 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: So Joe let me ask the bank robberies in h 448 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean, we go through probably half a dozen of 449 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: them and get the money and run, and they just 450 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: they do seem like capers. And there's a fun aspect 451 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: in part because of the way you tell it. You know, 452 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: you're always kind of laughing, obviously in retrospect, but it 453 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: seems almost like it was a golden age of bank robbery. 454 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: At the technology was, in comparison, really low tech. I mean, 455 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: could you ever be a bank robber of the same 456 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: accomplishment today given what's out there? 457 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I mean the reason it was easy for 458 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 2: me is there was very little bandit glass, right, very 459 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 2: little all right. I may have walked into one bank 460 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: or two in all that fourteen months I was rubbing 461 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 2: banks in the late eighties in which that was up 462 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: and I had to walk out there is so now 463 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 2: you go into most of them and they have that, right, 464 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: that's just that's a regular thing. So no, that you 465 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 2: know at the counter is not as as as easy 466 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: as it was, though there are still a lot of 467 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: banks that don't have it, so people are still out 468 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 2: there robbing it that way. But it was a golden 469 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: age in la like that when I came out, I 470 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: would sometimes be in banks. I was like, yeah, I 471 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: ain't trying to row. I would never rob. Even if 472 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: I got mad and said fuck it, I'm not gonna 473 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: do that. I'm going to go to crime, it would 474 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: not be the row banks. So let me ask you. 475 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: I mean, another thing was as a successful bank robber, 476 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: you were had pockets full of cash, and everybody around you, 477 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: your family, your dad, your brother, stepmother, at some point 478 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: they almost have known that you were that you weren't 479 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: a cook at Crocodile Cafe in Pasadena. 480 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 2: Well, by the way I covered that was remember I 481 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: was a fugitive in Mexico before I got arrested the 482 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: first time, and so I told them I hoped that 483 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: with some really interesting people there, I committed a couple 484 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: of big time crimes and they held my money for 485 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: me and I'm living off that. That's all you need 486 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: to know, and nobody said anything, you know. 487 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: I mean, a very central point of get the money 488 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: and run. It's bookended by your relationship with your father. 489 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: At the beginning, the abusive relationship, and at the end 490 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: he's sitting by the door of I guess your bedroom, 491 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: not letting you out. It's the last episode that we 492 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: call fatal peril. What is your relationship with your father? 493 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 2: Like now? So, my dad's eighty nobody, six or four 494 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: this year, and he is alone. He lives in Ourhambra. 495 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: We we get along really good. I talked to him 496 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 2: three times a week, like I talked to him last night. 497 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: We were laughing our asson. He's funny, he's got a 498 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 2: good sense of humor. It's about him. So we take 499 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: care of him. We love him. My brother calls him 500 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: three nights a week. I call him three nights a week. 501 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: I don't know very many sons who are as close 502 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: to their father as my father and I are. And 503 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 2: we have a fucking terrible history, and so we overcame 504 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: so much. My dad gets so much love. It's really simple. 505 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 2: I'll tell you how it is. We look at it 506 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: this way, my brother and I. My mother loved my dad. 507 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: We love my mother. We love and respect the death 508 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: the memory of my dead mother. My mother saw something 509 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 2: in my father that my brother and I know is 510 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: at bottom of My Dad's a sweet man. He was 511 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: harassed by his demons, and he fucked up, and he 512 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: didn't fuck up. Twenty four to seven he just fucked 513 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 2: up in cinematic style several times a year, really bad. 514 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: But he gave us a lot of good. We are artists, 515 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: my brother's a musician, I'm a writer, I'm a thinker. 516 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: I own all the things I am because of my dad, 517 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 2: and he worked hard to give us a lot of 518 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: advantages that we have. We're in private schools. When we 519 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: were on like, we are who we are and we 520 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 2: are loving people as we are. And I was able 521 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: to heal myself because excuse of my dad gave me. 522 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: So we look at it this way, Dad, on your 523 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: this is your endgame, on your way out, We're just 524 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 2: gonna love you on the way out of the way. 525 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 2: Mommy is not here to love you. Our mommy is 526 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: not here to love you. And so that's how we 527 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: that's our ethos. And now we just talk all the 528 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: good things about his life that we love about him. 529 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I hated the man so much in 530 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: episodes one and two. It was crazy that that ability 531 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: to forgive is just I guess one of the miracles 532 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: of get the money and run. It's crazy the way 533 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: that happens. One thing that somebody wanted to know about 534 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: the prison hierarchy. How were you as a bank robber 535 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: considered in prison. 536 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 2: A bank robbery When I got there, it was pretty 537 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 2: high on the hierarchy because it's violent crime and some 538 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 2: money crime. Low crimes are like, you know, obviously sex 539 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 2: trafficking across lines because I was a federal prisoner. Drug 540 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 2: crimes are low, you know, but we are considered violent 541 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: men who took our agency into a place, took over 542 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: an institution, got the money. Like there's there's some something 543 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: to it, and I believe part of it. Most of 544 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: the guys that matter where bank robbers are a bunch 545 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 2: of lames. They had just graduated from selling drugs, so 546 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: now they got so fucked up on their own product. 547 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 2: They now need to go make money. So they started 548 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: robbing banks, and they were you know, and they got 549 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 2: caught after four or five or three or two whatever. 550 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: I wasn't. I didn't. I didn't have the respect for 551 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: bank rubbers a lot of the society does, because I 552 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: feel like society has a sense of the bank rubber 553 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: and a more a more Hollywood sort of view of it, 554 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 2: which which is which is also more mythologized, meaning in 555 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: the depression, those bank rubber the Depression era bank robbers. 556 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 2: They were folk heroes. Yeah, they were folk heroes, right, 557 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: they were. They were the guys who would go into 558 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 2: a bank like baby like a babyface Nelson. He would 559 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: go into the banks and banks in those days obviously 560 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: there's nothing digital, nothing, nothing like that copied. So he 561 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: would go into banks and he would not only rob them, 562 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: he would burn the files that had all the mortgages 563 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: for the farmers. So then he would say, fuck you, 564 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: you've been fucking over everyone. We're gonna like, we're not 565 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: only robbing you for us to make money, we're robbing 566 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: you because it's a social fucking thing we're doing. Now. 567 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: The other thing that is important about that, to make 568 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: the myth grow larger, is every Hollywood hunk since then 569 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: has played a bank rubber. They've made it so like 570 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: not even Hollywood hunks have to do it. They got 571 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: that little kid who played Mark Zuckerberg. They had him 572 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: may a bank robber. They had on the Ansari like 573 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: comic little Towrpy nerdy dudes play. They have little girls 574 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 2: robbing banks like you used to be. Once upon a 575 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: time it was like, you know, like al Pacino and 576 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: de Niro and Robert Radford and Paul new and those 577 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 2: are the bank robbers, right, But no, now they have 578 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: everybody played so and they come up with highschovies all 579 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: day long. But there was a time when I think 580 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: that people thought bank robbery was resistance crime, and they 581 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 2: had the mythology the folklore of the depression era thing, 582 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: and I think that lingered. By the time I got 583 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,479 Speaker 2: there in the late eighties, there were still sort of like, 584 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: we are the outlaw, we are the epitome of the outlaw. 585 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 2: So then the hierarchy bank robbers had like, you know, 586 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: made you say you're a bank rubber, like, oh, okay, cool, 587 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: that's a respectable fucking crime. That's how I look at 588 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 2: That's what I think. I mean, I didn't feel like 589 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: that was how I was treated, you know, like, oh shit, 590 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: bank robber. 591 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: All right, all right, last question, just I want you 592 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: to say something about your book. It got wonderful reviews, 593 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: A great accomplish Schmidt. You know, you turn yourself, as 594 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: you said, into a good person. You also turn yourself 595 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: into a writer. How hard was that? 596 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: I was disciplined. That was actually one of the reasons 597 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: that could change my life because one of the things 598 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: my dad taught me. My dad taught himself Greek and Hebrew. Right, 599 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 2: my dad was disciplined. He has a disciplined mind, and 600 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 2: he would put in the rigger. My brother taught himself 601 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: piano and guitar, never took lessons. And so while I 602 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: was in prison for the last two and a half years, 603 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 2: every day I was writing, and every day I was 604 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: reading good writers, and I would highlight their words, and 605 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 2: then I would copy paragraphs down hole, you know, read copy, 606 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: read copy, and follow their thinking and follow their ideas 607 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 2: the flow. If it has something in the sentence that 608 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: was surprising, that was provocative, that was new a word, 609 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 2: a novel word, I would write it. And because I 610 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: wanted to be influenced by different minds that were where 611 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: there were sharp that I found interesting to me. So 612 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 2: I did that. I've sat with many writer friends of 613 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: mine and they were they were also the same. I 614 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: wish I had that kind of time, like solitary gave 615 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: me time, and prison gave me time to sit there 616 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: for hours and do the thing that writers want to do, 617 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 2: which is we want to just swim and live and 618 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 2: seem in solitary. I remember I got picked up for 619 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 2: solitary a little bit later for stabbing a man in prison, 620 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: and I was in there for three months on investigation. 621 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: Oh man, I made it work for me. When I 622 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: would get up make my bed, I would just write. 623 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: I just didn't have to listen anyone, didn't have talked 624 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: to anyone, and I had the luxury of like being 625 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: fed three times a day, doing an ava wreck, showering 626 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: only three times a week. It was It wasn't that 627 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: hard to do it. It was just a lot of work. 628 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: And fortunately for me, I was that kind of work 629 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: when you're doing what you really want to be doing, 630 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: feels like play. And so when you say how hard 631 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: was it, it wasn't hard. I was having that was 632 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: that was enjoyable. Ryan. The book was hard because I 633 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: had to live a lot of PTSD. I didn't know 634 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: what PTSD was at the time, and so I would 635 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: go into these things like, oh, I'm going to write 636 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 2: all these details for you guys, and then I would 637 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 2: write them on I'd be sitting there afterwards, devastated. And 638 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: that was the hard part, was technically writing the traumatic 639 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 2: scenes in my memoir. 640 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: You make solitary confinement sound like a National Endowment for 641 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: the arts grant. 642 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 2: That's interesting you say that, because obviously the best solitary 643 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 2: was the best thing that ever happened to me, solitary conversy. 644 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: And this is where paradox is alive. Solitary was the 645 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 2: worst thing that ever happened to me. I'm still fucked 646 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 2: up psychologically for that. I saved nightmares periodically because of that. 647 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 2: I still carry so much fucking fractured shit because of that, 648 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: because of the way I was treated, handcuffed by guards, 649 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,720 Speaker 2: beaten by guard like that kind of stuff that happens. 650 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 2: What are you gonna do with that? But on the 651 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: other hand, it created an occasion for me to really 652 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: experienced myself and experience they have an experience that profoundly, 653 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 2: profoundly sharpened by vision and sparked my imagination so that I, 654 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,439 Speaker 2: like this, was awakened to the new me. And so 655 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: that's who's here. And that happened because of a hallucination 656 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: in solitary confinement. 657 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: Wow, that's an amazing moment staring at that wall and 658 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: starting to hallucinate. And you know, one of the things 659 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: I think about you, Joe, is that you put us 660 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: there and not that I could necessarily feel what you felt, 661 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: but I could imagine staring at that wall and kind 662 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: of going crazy, and I think that's one of the 663 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: real talents that you have as a writer but also 664 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: as a storyteller, and I hope that Get the Money 665 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,479 Speaker 1: and Run really captures that. I think it does, so Joe, 666 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: thanks so much much for spending the time with us. 667 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: Thanks man, great m