WEBVTT - Melissa Auf der Maur

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin melis Off. Deemauer came of age in Montreal's bohemian

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<v Speaker 1>art scene in the eighties and early nineties, at the

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<v Speaker 1>very moment that alternative rock was becoming the defining sound

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<v Speaker 1>of a generation. Through an unlikely chain of events, her

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<v Speaker 1>band Tinker landed an opening slot for The Smashing Pumpkins

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<v Speaker 1>and Billy Corgan. Sensing her natural talent on bass, Corgan

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<v Speaker 1>recommended her to Courtney Love. What followed was a turbulent

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<v Speaker 1>apprenticeship of Deemauer joined whole for to live through this

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<v Speaker 1>tour in nineteen ninety four, just weeks after the deaths

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<v Speaker 1>of Kirk Obain and Hols prior bassist Kristin Faff. Later,

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<v Speaker 1>she toured with The Smashing Pumpkins, released two solo albums,

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<v Speaker 1>and as Sense built a life as a musician, photographer,

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<v Speaker 1>and cultural curator, having co founded Basilica Hudson, a multidisciplinary

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<v Speaker 1>art center in New York's Hudson Valley. Even the Good

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<v Speaker 1>Girls Will Cry as Melissa's best selling book, part rock memor,

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<v Speaker 1>part travel diary, part psychedelic scrap book, a vivid dispatch

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<v Speaker 1>from what she calls the last analog decade, capturing that

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<v Speaker 1>era in all its messy, angsty glory. Off Demauer writes

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<v Speaker 1>with the tenderness of a true survivor, about the illness

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<v Speaker 1>and death of her father, her past relationship with Dave Grohl,

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<v Speaker 1>and her complicated, deeply human portrait of Courtney Love. Now

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<v Speaker 1>she's following it up with a companion photo book, My

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<v Speaker 1>Nineties Rock Photographs, drawn from the remarkable archives she shot

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<v Speaker 1>from one of rock's last great decades. On today's episode,

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<v Speaker 1>I talked to Mliss off Demauer about both projects, about

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<v Speaker 1>how her parents encouraged an unconventional life in the arts,

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<v Speaker 1>how alternative music went mainstream, and how her relationship with

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<v Speaker 1>Courtney Love has evolved over the years. This is broken record,

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<v Speaker 1>real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Melissa off Demauer.

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<v Speaker 2>JI, in whole was happened because of death. I replaced

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<v Speaker 2>a deceased woman who died two months after Kurt committed suicide.

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<v Speaker 2>So the whole runway to my joining that band was death.

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<v Speaker 1>With Cony Love, who I don't know, but just from

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<v Speaker 1>everything you know I know of her, you just presume.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I wouldn't think she's getting out of the decade.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, impossible She's an absolute miracle. She should have

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<v Speaker 2>been dead seventeen hundred times. She is not. She's alive.

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<v Speaker 2>And we didn't speak after I left the band for

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<v Speaker 2>well over a decade, and we are now the closest

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<v Speaker 2>we have ever been.

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<v Speaker 1>That's great.

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<v Speaker 2>She's in the best mental health and clarity than she

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<v Speaker 2>ever has been. She has an album in the can

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<v Speaker 2>that I sang backups all over. She has a memoir

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<v Speaker 2>coming out at the end of the year, in a

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<v Speaker 2>documentary film that's a real reframing in her own words,

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<v Speaker 2>of her survival. Basically, she's but yes.

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<v Speaker 1>She's going there and all that. Like in the dock,

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<v Speaker 1>is it like it goes pretty heavy?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it did. This is very Courtney. But it

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<v Speaker 2>did premiere at sun Dance in January. She didn't show up,

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<v Speaker 2>and now she's reshooting it. When it came out to rave.

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<v Speaker 1>Reviews, she's just put the original film as like an

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<v Speaker 1>extra or something. I loved it.

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<v Speaker 2>Redoing it, but I mean it's probably going to be better.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but it's sure. She's going to have

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<v Speaker 2>her moment like this is my year, my little bass

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<v Speaker 2>player a year. In twenty twenty six, she and Billy

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<v Speaker 2>who are my grunge parents that I refer to because

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<v Speaker 2>Billy from the Smashing Pumpkins was my entree and my

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<v Speaker 2>introduction to Hole and he was my musical mentor. So

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<v Speaker 2>there are these ominous parent figures. And when I left

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<v Speaker 2>the nineties running after my two stints in yeah, two

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<v Speaker 2>huge bands, but also notably two of the most I

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<v Speaker 2>never saw it this way until I left in decades later, like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you were in two huge rock bands, but you were

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<v Speaker 2>also in the bands with the most difficult front people,

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<v Speaker 2>like notably difficult front people.

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<v Speaker 1>Different reasons but different, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Very different people. Courtney and Billy are radically different, but

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<v Speaker 2>they were for better. For course, my my second parents

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<v Speaker 2>who ushered me into my adulthood. And when I left

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<v Speaker 2>both their bands, I didn't speak to either of them

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<v Speaker 2>for a decade, and we're closer than we've ever been.

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<v Speaker 2>So the good news is that there's happy endings in

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<v Speaker 2>gen X like alternative rock purgatory Land.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so happy to hear that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, everyone's alive and talking and apologize it's still

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<v Speaker 2>time to go.

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<v Speaker 1>You know it's bad, I hope not. Yeah, it's true. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>as a fan of I'm a Billy cording fan, and

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<v Speaker 1>he sometimes drives me nuts as a fail someone. Why

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<v Speaker 1>would you say that? What compels you? I can't remember exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>but everyone you know, it's like every third interview I'll

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<v Speaker 1>read it. Isn't I a wild card?

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<v Speaker 2>He is very He's truly himself. And when I met

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<v Speaker 2>I was nineteen. When I met him in nineteen ninety one,

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<v Speaker 2>he was nobody. His band had a twelve inch out

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<v Speaker 2>and we became quick friends, pen pals, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>entirely captured by the sound of the music. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>the man, but when I walked into the band the

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<v Speaker 2>first show, they had a Montreal for a dollar in

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<v Speaker 2>front of twenty people, I heard the sounds of my

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<v Speaker 2>ancient soul in this band. I didn't know who they were.

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<v Speaker 2>I just it captured me. It changed my life. I

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<v Speaker 2>committed to making music and picking up the bass after that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I became friends with him, and we also discovered

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<v Speaker 2>shortly after that we're both born as Saint Patrick's Day

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<v Speaker 2>and in the world of astrology, but also just saints

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<v Speaker 2>are holy and cool. But pisces were very overly sensitive creatures.

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<v Speaker 2>He was very unique as a rock dude at that

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<v Speaker 2>time because I mean, obviously Kurt had his own true

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<v Speaker 2>tortured poet martyr tragedy, and Billy had his own weird,

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<v Speaker 2>esoteric vibes that was very different than like, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>obviously Sound Garden and Pearl everyone had their own thing,

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<v Speaker 2>but Billy's twist was sort of like I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>say this with all the love, but sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>new age pompous intellectual philosopher, which is what made him

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<v Speaker 2>interesting to people like me. I was like, wow, cool,

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<v Speaker 2>he's like so poetic and strange, but he also just

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<v Speaker 2>throws these curveballs because it's not Yeah, it's a little much.

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<v Speaker 1>I love a line though, between like that and like

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<v Speaker 1>annoying for any I mean even for Dylan or Joni Mitchell.

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<v Speaker 1>It's all the same. It's like the lawn between being

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of a purpose. Not necessarily I'm not necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>to compare him to Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell, but

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<v Speaker 1>in a way it's, yeah, our generation he's fairly committed to.

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<v Speaker 2>Which I love. I love that he's so using his

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<v Speaker 2>platforms are getting bigger and bigger, like from wrestling to

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<v Speaker 2>podcasts to the Pumpkins being the biggest they've ever been. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean hooray, because they you know, they really they

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<v Speaker 2>did dip. I mean I was on when I toured

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<v Speaker 2>with them. It was the farewell tour. We were the

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<v Speaker 2>band was dismantling, and he made a weird concept then,

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<v Speaker 2>which was also kind of like an example of how

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<v Speaker 2>weird Billy was as we went on a world tour

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<v Speaker 2>to say goodbye to the world the band was ending,

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<v Speaker 2>and who really does do a farewell tour at the

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<v Speaker 2>peak prime of there? Like it'd only been a band

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<v Speaker 2>for a decade. It's not like it was like you

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<v Speaker 2>two saying goodbye after fifty years. So he's a funny

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<v Speaker 2>human that way. And I remember the whole time on

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<v Speaker 2>that tour with him thinking like, wait, what's Billy's planned

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<v Speaker 2>after this? Like why why is it? You know, I

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<v Speaker 2>knew I was just a visiting, temporary member, but but

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<v Speaker 2>it was the honor of a lifetime to play in

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<v Speaker 2>my favorite band who inspired me to pick up the

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<v Speaker 2>bass to begin with.

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<v Speaker 1>And both times, I guess, and also in both instances,

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<v Speaker 1>you're also replacing a bit of an iconic.

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<v Speaker 2>Well iconic and tragic and tragic. So the problem Kristin Faff,

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<v Speaker 2>who I replaced in Hole. She played on live this

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<v Speaker 2>but hadn't even really been in the band for very long.

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<v Speaker 2>She made an amazing record with them and played in

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<v Speaker 2>that first video, Miss World, and then died before they

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<v Speaker 2>even supported the record. So I came in at the

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<v Speaker 2>moment where the band is ready to support the album,

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<v Speaker 2>and then Darcy from the Pumpkins, who longstanding member that

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<v Speaker 2>Pumpkins were always that formation, And this part of the

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<v Speaker 2>book I think is new for a lot of But

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of parts of my memoir that obviously

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<v Speaker 2>I've never told anybody.

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<v Speaker 1>But.

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<v Speaker 2>Having just done an epic three month memoir book tour

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<v Speaker 2>this spring and talking to and doing what I thought

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<v Speaker 2>was going to be ten bookshops to turn into forty

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<v Speaker 2>seven events and multiple a day, and hundreds of people

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<v Speaker 2>interfacing a day with hearing their response and questions of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, things that they had never heard, like the

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<v Speaker 2>deep dive that people want of the behind the scenes.

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<v Speaker 2>But one of the kind of nexus moments in my

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<v Speaker 2>book is that strange moment that I knew at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>but writing about it twenty five years later, when I

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<v Speaker 2>leave Hole and join the Smashing Pumpkins, all within a month.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a very back to back, strange move, but

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<v Speaker 2>also very in sort of mythological rock history moment, just

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<v Speaker 2>very controversial for the good girl to just like leap

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<v Speaker 2>out and go into the other and replace Darcy who

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<v Speaker 2>had mysteriously kind of disappeared. And it was a testament

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<v Speaker 2>to me and Billy's esoteric piss's connection is I had

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<v Speaker 2>just quietly internally decided I was done with Hole at

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<v Speaker 2>the end of this tour of them, because well it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't even the end of the tour, but Courtney was

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<v Speaker 2>really focusing on movies Hollywood, and I just wrote a

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<v Speaker 2>letter in my diary flying home from the last show

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<v Speaker 2>I ever played with them in Vancouver in nineteen ninety nine,

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<v Speaker 2>and it just said that's it. I'm done. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>feel like waiting around anymore for a band leader to

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<v Speaker 2>decide if for making music or waiting to tour or

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<v Speaker 2>not tour. And then I, within a week of me

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<v Speaker 2>making that internal decision and preparing the terrifying resignation letter

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<v Speaker 2>to Courtney, Billy calls my rotary phone and says, Darcy's

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<v Speaker 2>disappeared and I need you to join my band. I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>how do you know that I am leaving? This band.

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<v Speaker 2>Why would you ask me that? But I am and

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<v Speaker 2>it worked out beautifully. But it was totally bizarre. But

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<v Speaker 2>that I'd explained in the book detailed is I think

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<v Speaker 2>is even news to me of remembering how tightly woven

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<v Speaker 2>that moment was.

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<v Speaker 1>Because in your mind if they feel like very different, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>blocks of time.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, yes, And I forgot how you know, like in romance,

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<v Speaker 2>how overlapped. And it's a testament to Courtney our mutual

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<v Speaker 2>respect and now even more so, at this stage of

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<v Speaker 2>our lives, were able to reflect on what made us

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<v Speaker 2>a good match. Back then, I try to explain from

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<v Speaker 2>the bass player good girl to the right of the

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<v Speaker 2>the horror, I'm the virgin. So I tried to explain

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<v Speaker 2>this dynamic of the two women in this band. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's not till decades later now that she and I

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<v Speaker 2>can reflect on how that happened and how beautifully compatible

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<v Speaker 2>we were so polar opposite and when I left what

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<v Speaker 2>she was not happy about, and then when I announced

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<v Speaker 2>I was joined the Pumpkins, which she was not happy about,

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<v Speaker 2>she very eloquently you know it shows her fundamental love

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<v Speaker 2>and trust of me. Is in respect for me. She

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<v Speaker 2>never said one bad word other than Melissa has gone

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<v Speaker 2>off to be Billy Corgan's purse. And that was her nice,

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<v Speaker 2>low hitting insult to all right, see you later. But

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<v Speaker 2>I was very impressed at the time that this is

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<v Speaker 2>like taking the high road. I'm just a purse, no

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<v Speaker 2>big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you think it was gonna be much worse?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>But no.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that's why I actually people ask me in

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<v Speaker 2>this memoir, what I you know, The hardest parts, of

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<v Speaker 2>course to were to write about drug addiction of others

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<v Speaker 2>and my father's death. But what were the things that

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<v Speaker 2>I'd learned about in the book? Was revisiting the letters

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<v Speaker 2>of Courtney that she wrote to me that I print

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<v Speaker 2>in the book for the first time ever. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I hadn't even to miracle they survived because they were

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<v Speaker 2>faxes and on that fading fact paper. And when I

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<v Speaker 2>was putting my archives together, I found it right in

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<v Speaker 2>the nick of time before it totally evaporated. By I

0:12:35.916 --> 0:12:40.396
<v Speaker 2>re print in full two big letters that Courtney wrote

0:12:40.436 --> 0:12:45.556
<v Speaker 2>to me at the peak of our power, both in

0:12:45.596 --> 0:12:48.796
<v Speaker 2>the celebrity skin moment but also our power as women

0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:52.596
<v Speaker 2>together on covers of magazines and all the fashion moments,

0:12:52.596 --> 0:12:58.196
<v Speaker 2>and at the Versace shows, and it was a very elevated,

0:12:58.276 --> 0:13:00.796
<v Speaker 2>high intensity time of our career, and it was the

0:13:00.916 --> 0:13:03.436
<v Speaker 2>end of the nineties and women seemed to be on top,

0:13:03.956 --> 0:13:07.396
<v Speaker 2>which is another story. But she writes me two letters

0:13:07.396 --> 0:13:09.436
<v Speaker 2>that I think are too the most powerful things in

0:13:09.476 --> 0:13:11.196
<v Speaker 2>the book. And what I like is that I get

0:13:11.196 --> 0:13:14.836
<v Speaker 2>to give Courtney the floor. She gets to show the

0:13:14.876 --> 0:13:18.116
<v Speaker 2>people who read the book just how brilliant, eloquent, generous

0:13:18.596 --> 0:13:21.036
<v Speaker 2>and noble she is. And the first one is the

0:13:21.036 --> 0:13:24.876
<v Speaker 2>beauty manifesto, where she's given me some lessons and beauty

0:13:25.116 --> 0:13:27.996
<v Speaker 2>around the Malibu video and the edits, and she thinks

0:13:27.996 --> 0:13:30.476
<v Speaker 2>I should be goofyer or i'llso be an ice princess

0:13:30.596 --> 0:13:32.996
<v Speaker 2>and I'm a queen, not a princess. That a so cool,

0:13:33.356 --> 0:13:36.956
<v Speaker 2>great letter. And then the second one is her response

0:13:37.036 --> 0:13:42.796
<v Speaker 2>to my resignation, and it is generous and incredible. And

0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:44.796
<v Speaker 2>I took it with a grain of salt at the

0:13:44.876 --> 0:13:47.076
<v Speaker 2>time because I just need it out, and I didn't

0:13:47.116 --> 0:13:48.956
<v Speaker 2>read it for twenty years, and when I read it

0:13:49.156 --> 0:13:52.756
<v Speaker 2>putting this book together, I realized, and she is, for

0:13:52.836 --> 0:13:54.716
<v Speaker 2>anyone who's been in the room with her, always the

0:13:54.756 --> 0:13:58.316
<v Speaker 2>smartest person in the room. Even now after all the

0:13:58.436 --> 0:14:03.356
<v Speaker 2>trauma and an addiction and damage, brilliant, brilliant mind, and

0:14:04.676 --> 0:14:09.756
<v Speaker 2>the handwritten letter that she sends me in response to

0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:12.596
<v Speaker 2>this out of nowhere ish decision for me to leave.

0:14:13.436 --> 0:14:17.356
<v Speaker 2>I learned about myself twenty five years later. I did

0:14:17.476 --> 0:14:20.996
<v Speaker 2>not at the time realize how bang on she was

0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:24.356
<v Speaker 2>about parts of me that I had not yet grown into.

0:14:24.476 --> 0:14:28.076
<v Speaker 2>I was only twenty six, and this very wise woman

0:14:28.876 --> 0:14:32.196
<v Speaker 2>really schooled me, and I wasn't ready for the lesson.

0:14:32.276 --> 0:14:35.796
<v Speaker 2>And I now as a as a middle aged wise woman,

0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:38.236
<v Speaker 2>I understand a lot of what she was saying that

0:14:38.316 --> 0:14:39.276
<v Speaker 2>I missed at the time.

0:14:39.236 --> 0:14:42.196
<v Speaker 1>Which is cool. How do you think she knew that

0:14:42.276 --> 0:14:43.396
<v Speaker 1>about it? I knew that about that.

0:14:43.556 --> 0:14:46.796
<v Speaker 2>I'm so smart because she I think her and Billy,

0:14:46.996 --> 0:14:51.156
<v Speaker 2>both since I put this memoir out, had been shockingly supportive,

0:14:51.316 --> 0:14:53.956
<v Speaker 2>like proud mom and dad? Who want to do you.

0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:54.796
<v Speaker 1>Really think it's shocking?

0:14:55.116 --> 0:14:55.316
<v Speaker 2>Well?

0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:56.076
<v Speaker 1>Maybe, well, we.

0:14:56.116 --> 0:14:58.556
<v Speaker 2>Didn't like both of them, No, I guess it's not

0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:01.156
<v Speaker 2>now that we've we've talked about it, But I had

0:15:01.196 --> 0:15:03.036
<v Speaker 2>been out of their lives for a long time, and

0:15:03.156 --> 0:15:08.156
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Well, they're also quite potentially competitive people.

0:15:08.636 --> 0:15:10.796
<v Speaker 2>So only reason I say shocking is it proves that

0:15:10.876 --> 0:15:13.516
<v Speaker 2>it's all love like we they love me, I love them.

0:15:14.196 --> 0:15:15.636
<v Speaker 2>They want me to succeed.

0:15:15.916 --> 0:15:18.236
<v Speaker 1>You know, Billy, you're You're like the child of a divorce,

0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:22.236
<v Speaker 1>but it's like the parents can come together for the graduation.

0:15:25.436 --> 0:15:29.556
<v Speaker 2>And essentially, since my book came out, both Billy and

0:15:29.676 --> 0:15:33.196
<v Speaker 2>Courtney in different ways, have said to me, we knew

0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:36.596
<v Speaker 2>that you were this great and we both saw it

0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:39.956
<v Speaker 2>anew from the moment we met you. And now the world,

0:15:40.076 --> 0:15:42.036
<v Speaker 2>like Billy even said at one point out a Q

0:15:42.156 --> 0:15:44.996
<v Speaker 2>and A, he ended up filling in last minute of

0:15:45.076 --> 0:15:47.636
<v Speaker 2>My la Q and A. When Jennifer Finch from L

0:15:47.756 --> 0:15:51.836
<v Speaker 2>seven called in sick, he came and said, in front

0:15:51.836 --> 0:15:54.476
<v Speaker 2>of a live audience, now the world gets to know

0:15:54.596 --> 0:15:56.876
<v Speaker 2>how amazing you are. I've always known it from the

0:15:56.916 --> 0:15:59.756
<v Speaker 2>moment I met you at nineteen. I hadn't seen such

0:15:59.836 --> 0:16:05.156
<v Speaker 2>self assurance in a young person. And he again, what

0:16:05.316 --> 0:16:07.716
<v Speaker 2>this putting out a memoir is insane, just for everyone

0:16:07.796 --> 0:16:09.156
<v Speaker 2>out there. If you want to heal your life, I

0:16:09.276 --> 0:16:12.396
<v Speaker 2>write a memoir. It's so painful. But then once it's

0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:14.876
<v Speaker 2>out and you've purged it and shared it, and then

0:16:14.916 --> 0:16:17.716
<v Speaker 2>you start getting the feedback. Some as hard I've had

0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:20.836
<v Speaker 2>trouble with other people, but this is an example of

0:16:20.916 --> 0:16:24.356
<v Speaker 2>the people that are like showering me and we're bonding

0:16:24.556 --> 0:16:30.156
<v Speaker 2>through my purging and self reflection and empowering my story.

0:16:30.876 --> 0:16:36.116
<v Speaker 2>But Billy said something that really a sense of what

0:16:36.316 --> 0:16:38.436
<v Speaker 2>happens in your middle age when you start looking back,

0:16:38.556 --> 0:16:41.716
<v Speaker 2>and especially when you were a difficult and sometimes hated person.

0:16:42.356 --> 0:16:45.356
<v Speaker 2>Both of them were, you know, very misunderstood yet celebrated

0:16:45.436 --> 0:16:47.156
<v Speaker 2>of course, and I think they both live with a

0:16:47.196 --> 0:16:51.356
<v Speaker 2>lot of pain around and both had very hard childhoods.

0:16:51.396 --> 0:16:53.276
<v Speaker 2>They were not and loved and that's what in this

0:16:53.396 --> 0:16:55.756
<v Speaker 2>Q and A. I was so it really. I think

0:16:55.796 --> 0:16:59.356
<v Speaker 2>I probably teared up if I didn't entirely cry. But

0:16:59.476 --> 0:17:02.596
<v Speaker 2>he said, you know what made you different? You know,

0:17:02.956 --> 0:17:07.396
<v Speaker 2>Courtney and I were survivors. We had tough childhoods, and

0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:11.956
<v Speaker 2>we were as strong as shit because we came from hard.

0:17:12.676 --> 0:17:16.796
<v Speaker 2>You were strong without that kind of pain.

0:17:17.716 --> 0:17:18.116
<v Speaker 1>And it was.

0:17:18.236 --> 0:17:23.036
<v Speaker 2>Deeply I felt, you know, whatever, that the new world

0:17:23.076 --> 0:17:26.916
<v Speaker 2>of therapy so seen. You know, I just had not

0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:30.356
<v Speaker 2>even to myself understood. But you know, my father had pain,

0:17:30.956 --> 0:17:34.796
<v Speaker 2>and as I've been so I held an embolded strength

0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:37.436
<v Speaker 2>of a man who for whatever complicated reasons.

0:17:37.476 --> 0:17:37.676
<v Speaker 1>It is.

0:17:37.756 --> 0:17:39.636
<v Speaker 2>My father had a lot of pain.

0:17:41.076 --> 0:17:43.476
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back with more from a less aftemar after

0:17:43.556 --> 0:17:50.036
<v Speaker 1>the break. And your mom was complicated too, Yes, it

0:17:50.436 --> 0:17:52.996
<v Speaker 1>came an equally interesting way.

0:17:53.516 --> 0:17:57.196
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, my father was in line with like true torture pain,

0:17:57.316 --> 0:18:01.396
<v Speaker 2>like alcoholic addicts. So that's why the wisdom of a

0:18:01.556 --> 0:18:07.636
<v Speaker 2>daughter of an alcoholic is a kind of chiseled wisdom

0:18:07.796 --> 0:18:10.636
<v Speaker 2>that comes either just enjoys you and you become an addict,

0:18:10.796 --> 0:18:13.476
<v Speaker 2>or you kind of work with it and try to

0:18:14.396 --> 0:18:16.356
<v Speaker 2>you know, you go through complicated things where you then

0:18:16.476 --> 0:18:19.516
<v Speaker 2>try to save people and you want to love everyone

0:18:19.636 --> 0:18:23.316
<v Speaker 2>for all of their impossible traits, and you compromise yourself

0:18:23.396 --> 0:18:24.356
<v Speaker 2>and your own happiness.

0:18:24.476 --> 0:18:28.676
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, and you must feel I mean, it's been

0:18:28.716 --> 0:18:30.596
<v Speaker 1>out now and it's been really well received in a lot,

0:18:30.636 --> 0:18:33.276
<v Speaker 1>but it's still you must feel like an open, exposed

0:18:33.316 --> 0:18:36.436
<v Speaker 1>nerve still. And I am a big one, big exposed.

0:18:36.476 --> 0:18:43.156
<v Speaker 2>A metaphoric mess. I am like metamorphosizing and like healing

0:18:43.476 --> 0:18:46.916
<v Speaker 2>actively and evolving. And then I have this companion book

0:18:46.996 --> 0:18:49.676
<v Speaker 2>that comes out six months later, so probably by the

0:18:49.716 --> 0:18:53.076
<v Speaker 2>time this is in September, the Visual Companion, which is

0:18:53.196 --> 0:18:56.156
<v Speaker 2>to my so my Nineties Rock Memoir came out at March,

0:18:56.276 --> 0:19:00.436
<v Speaker 2>and my nineties Rock Photographs come out in September, and

0:19:00.596 --> 0:19:05.916
<v Speaker 2>it is pulling from my archive of fifteen thousand negatives

0:19:06.156 --> 0:19:08.556
<v Speaker 2>shot between nineteen ninety one and two thousand and one,

0:19:09.276 --> 0:19:12.396
<v Speaker 2>decade that defined me in my generation, and photographed by

0:19:12.436 --> 0:19:16.276
<v Speaker 2>a woman in the band, and it's, I think, the

0:19:16.356 --> 0:19:21.356
<v Speaker 2>thing I'm most artistically proud of, because that's all I

0:19:21.516 --> 0:19:23.716
<v Speaker 2>actually ever wanted to be. I was in art school

0:19:23.716 --> 0:19:26.636
<v Speaker 2>as a photographer. I assumed I'd make photography my life.

0:19:27.116 --> 0:19:30.556
<v Speaker 2>But then I was hijacked by Courtney and the giant

0:19:30.636 --> 0:19:33.196
<v Speaker 2>circus of nineties rock music, and then I've been trying

0:19:33.276 --> 0:19:35.916
<v Speaker 2>to get myself back to this more conceptual artist. But

0:19:35.996 --> 0:19:38.716
<v Speaker 2>the joy of writing the memoir was I got to

0:19:38.956 --> 0:19:42.476
<v Speaker 2>really and also take the time to scan all my negatives,

0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:47.396
<v Speaker 2>and in that photographic journey that is coming out in September,

0:19:48.356 --> 0:19:52.636
<v Speaker 2>is even more wide open, like my boobs, my nose bleeds,

0:19:52.796 --> 0:19:58.556
<v Speaker 2>my messy bedrooms, like the rough and tumble existence backstage,

0:19:58.636 --> 0:20:01.756
<v Speaker 2>and the messiness of you know, the glorious things too,

0:20:01.916 --> 0:20:04.476
<v Speaker 2>the giant crowds. And I don't mean that because we're

0:20:04.516 --> 0:20:06.276
<v Speaker 2>so lucky to make giant crowds. But I have a

0:20:06.316 --> 0:20:10.996
<v Speaker 2>whole room in the museum exhibit that's coming in concerts

0:20:11.116 --> 0:20:14.596
<v Speaker 2>with this photo book. And the last room is an

0:20:14.636 --> 0:20:18.556
<v Speaker 2>ode to the fans and to the journey. Is the

0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:22.796
<v Speaker 2>bass player in my interior spiritual world basically that merged

0:20:22.876 --> 0:20:27.196
<v Speaker 2>with these oceans of people. And there's actually a video

0:20:27.516 --> 0:20:29.676
<v Speaker 2>installation in the middle of that room called the Bass

0:20:29.956 --> 0:20:33.796
<v Speaker 2>Womb Room, which is a throbbing heartbeat, a soundtrack I

0:20:33.876 --> 0:20:37.916
<v Speaker 2>am making, and it's the inner soundtrack and prism like

0:20:39.956 --> 0:20:44.156
<v Speaker 2>light in video installation, surrounded by these photos of fans,

0:20:44.396 --> 0:20:48.876
<v Speaker 2>giant like crowds of thousands, and it's like a zigzag

0:20:48.996 --> 0:20:52.796
<v Speaker 2>between like the tiny intimate inner self that brings a

0:20:52.956 --> 0:20:57.116
<v Speaker 2>sound through their instrument to commune with these oceans of

0:20:57.236 --> 0:21:03.316
<v Speaker 2>fans for years, and that is very powerful, I'm assuming,

0:21:03.356 --> 0:21:05.996
<v Speaker 2>you know, But music, I believe is the highest form

0:21:06.116 --> 0:21:10.636
<v Speaker 2>of creative spiritual communing with a with humans. You know.

0:21:10.716 --> 0:21:12.916
<v Speaker 2>I love painting, I love theater, I love film, of

0:21:12.996 --> 0:21:16.516
<v Speaker 2>course I love photography. But the actual exchange and the

0:21:16.556 --> 0:21:19.596
<v Speaker 2>way that music moves through people's lives and it's not

0:21:20.156 --> 0:21:22.156
<v Speaker 2>just the power of the stage, but of course that

0:21:22.836 --> 0:21:26.756
<v Speaker 2>rumbling of the bass through the ocean of the moving people,

0:21:27.196 --> 0:21:30.316
<v Speaker 2>with the people who are playing it that's heavy, is incredible,

0:21:30.436 --> 0:21:33.356
<v Speaker 2>but it's also when they go home and listen to

0:21:33.436 --> 0:21:36.676
<v Speaker 2>it alone in their room. It's like this inside outside

0:21:37.236 --> 0:21:41.236
<v Speaker 2>private public. And a lot of my work in the

0:21:41.356 --> 0:21:45.396
<v Speaker 2>photos is really reflecting the inside of my life, the

0:21:45.596 --> 0:21:49.276
<v Speaker 2>young girl I'm trying to protect from the giant abyss,

0:21:49.716 --> 0:21:53.956
<v Speaker 2>but then also the power of this remarkable relationship with

0:21:54.156 --> 0:21:58.116
<v Speaker 2>human kind. It's very exciting to be working in this

0:21:58.956 --> 0:22:02.476
<v Speaker 2>medium to be able to reflect on what I and

0:22:02.716 --> 0:22:05.436
<v Speaker 2>every other person whoever was in a rock band is

0:22:05.556 --> 0:22:08.796
<v Speaker 2>doing out there every night, and what those people in

0:22:08.796 --> 0:22:12.356
<v Speaker 2>the crowd outs are doing. And uh, when I talk

0:22:12.476 --> 0:22:15.636
<v Speaker 2>with artists as a you know, an advocate for music

0:22:15.756 --> 0:22:18.996
<v Speaker 2>being the the superpower, as I just remind them, like,

0:22:19.116 --> 0:22:22.156
<v Speaker 2>you can't hold it. It is not a thing.

0:22:22.516 --> 0:22:23.796
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is abstract.

0:22:23.876 --> 0:22:28.036
<v Speaker 2>It's just sound, which is like essence, like environment. It's

0:22:28.076 --> 0:22:29.116
<v Speaker 2>so it's like air.

0:22:29.356 --> 0:22:31.636
<v Speaker 1>It's so powerful, moving airs.

0:22:31.956 --> 0:22:35.516
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is literally the bass yeh is literally the base.

0:22:35.676 --> 0:22:35.796
<v Speaker 1>You know?

0:22:36.156 --> 0:22:38.356
<v Speaker 2>Did I mention I'm a bass player For these people listening,

0:22:39.036 --> 0:22:42.276
<v Speaker 2>I am a highly defined I am a redhead Canadian

0:22:42.356 --> 0:22:45.676
<v Speaker 2>bass player. That is my top line description, it's a.

0:22:45.716 --> 0:22:48.316
<v Speaker 1>Great way to two I am says it all. It

0:22:48.396 --> 0:22:53.476
<v Speaker 1>says it all and your base plane is like listening.

0:22:53.556 --> 0:22:58.636
<v Speaker 1>I hadn't listened to whole in a long time. Listening

0:22:58.676 --> 0:23:02.436
<v Speaker 1>to celebrity skin it's like, what the bass really stands out?

0:23:02.636 --> 0:23:04.556
<v Speaker 2>And it's cool? Is it now that people are so

0:23:05.116 --> 0:23:07.836
<v Speaker 2>nerdy crazy deep diving in the nineties I have from

0:23:07.876 --> 0:23:10.036
<v Speaker 2>my memory, I did a bunch of of course press,

0:23:10.116 --> 0:23:12.756
<v Speaker 2>but talking to the bass magazines, of talking to these

0:23:12.796 --> 0:23:14.756
<v Speaker 2>super nerdy bass people who are like, well, there's a

0:23:14.836 --> 0:23:18.956
<v Speaker 2>Melissa sound like does alyssa feel that people know about

0:23:19.036 --> 0:23:20.796
<v Speaker 2>that when you're in the studio if like they're super

0:23:20.876 --> 0:23:24.516
<v Speaker 2>nerdy rock enthusiast engineer. This was all news to me

0:23:24.676 --> 0:23:26.836
<v Speaker 2>when I was doing these interviews, like, oh, really there's

0:23:26.876 --> 0:23:31.516
<v Speaker 2>a thing. And then these nerdy bass player magazine people

0:23:31.556 --> 0:23:33.916
<v Speaker 2>were like, yes, there's like a whole there's a style

0:23:34.116 --> 0:23:36.756
<v Speaker 2>that you have and a feel that you have. And

0:23:36.836 --> 0:23:40.236
<v Speaker 2>then you did you watch the Billy Corgan podcast with me?

0:23:40.436 --> 0:23:43.036
<v Speaker 2>I did not, so because you're a Billy fan. That's

0:23:43.236 --> 0:23:45.036
<v Speaker 2>it's I mean, I try.

0:23:44.956 --> 0:23:47.516
<v Speaker 1>Not to take into any podcasters because I like that.

0:23:47.596 --> 0:23:50.556
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry if I don't listen to podcasts either. I

0:23:50.636 --> 0:23:52.676
<v Speaker 2>didn't listen back to it, but I was in the

0:23:52.756 --> 0:23:56.196
<v Speaker 2>studio with Billy and we had a conversation about my book.

0:23:56.356 --> 0:23:59.316
<v Speaker 2>He invited me on the podcast and for the first

0:23:59.356 --> 0:24:01.196
<v Speaker 2>time ever, again this is sort of the joy of

0:24:01.236 --> 0:24:04.676
<v Speaker 2>twenty five years later and sitting with your ex band member,

0:24:05.076 --> 0:24:09.316
<v Speaker 2>he broke down my bass playing to me, which never

0:24:09.436 --> 0:24:11.636
<v Speaker 2>happened before. And again it had something to do with

0:24:11.796 --> 0:24:13.916
<v Speaker 2>time pass because he's also played with a lot of

0:24:13.956 --> 0:24:18.756
<v Speaker 2>bass players since, and because last summer he was playing

0:24:18.836 --> 0:24:21.836
<v Speaker 2>like a small secret ish show in Montreal of like

0:24:22.236 --> 0:24:25.556
<v Speaker 2>rarity songs, not with the Pumpkins, and I joined for

0:24:25.676 --> 0:24:28.836
<v Speaker 2>one song for Everlasting Days, which is on that last

0:24:28.916 --> 0:24:30.716
<v Speaker 2>record that I toured with them, and I was in

0:24:30.796 --> 0:24:34.196
<v Speaker 2>that video and it was like riding a bike. I

0:24:34.236 --> 0:24:36.476
<v Speaker 2>don't play bass much at the moment, and it was

0:24:36.996 --> 0:24:39.396
<v Speaker 2>powerful for me to just get on stage with Billy

0:24:39.516 --> 0:24:43.836
<v Speaker 2>play that song and feel so instantly like cellular memory

0:24:43.956 --> 0:24:48.036
<v Speaker 2>alive and love it. And he said at soundcheck that day,

0:24:48.076 --> 0:24:52.756
<v Speaker 2>when I started playing, he said, oh, there's that feeling,

0:24:52.876 --> 0:24:56.076
<v Speaker 2>there's that pocket again. It's been a while. And then

0:24:56.316 --> 0:24:59.476
<v Speaker 2>that's why when he did the podcast he broke it down.

0:24:59.956 --> 0:25:01.716
<v Speaker 2>He's like, well, you have a very particular feeling. It

0:25:01.796 --> 0:25:03.516
<v Speaker 2>was the first time. And he's such a muso, like

0:25:03.596 --> 0:25:06.676
<v Speaker 2>if there was ever someone who could describe why technically

0:25:06.836 --> 0:25:10.516
<v Speaker 2>or what I'm doing, it love describing things. Yes, so

0:25:10.756 --> 0:25:12.436
<v Speaker 2>he uh, he broke it down. So for all the

0:25:12.476 --> 0:25:15.996
<v Speaker 2>bass players listening or anyone who thinks about pockets, he

0:25:16.236 --> 0:25:19.796
<v Speaker 2>describes the unique and I guess not a lot of

0:25:19.836 --> 0:25:22.316
<v Speaker 2>bass players have this. Most bass players play on the

0:25:22.436 --> 0:25:25.356
<v Speaker 2>beat of the kickdrum, so it's like you're playing with

0:25:25.516 --> 0:25:28.716
<v Speaker 2>the kick drum. Some people in other kinds of music

0:25:28.956 --> 0:25:32.476
<v Speaker 2>are behind and laid back, and that's like a space between,

0:25:33.116 --> 0:25:35.916
<v Speaker 2>and that's possibly in jazz. I'm sorry for the super

0:25:36.036 --> 0:25:38.316
<v Speaker 2>musos out there. I don't actually know, but some people

0:25:38.956 --> 0:25:42.396
<v Speaker 2>are behind the bucket and I, which I guess is

0:25:42.556 --> 0:25:46.596
<v Speaker 2>less common, but maybe for certain rock style, am ahead

0:25:46.716 --> 0:25:50.996
<v Speaker 2>of the kick and I push push, push, push push,

0:25:51.116 --> 0:25:53.076
<v Speaker 2>and I had I mean, I guess I've never I

0:25:53.236 --> 0:25:55.076
<v Speaker 2>just play the way I've always played. I mean when

0:25:55.116 --> 0:25:57.916
<v Speaker 2>I joined Hole, I had owned my bass for a

0:25:58.076 --> 0:26:01.316
<v Speaker 2>year and I had only played six concerts ever, and

0:26:01.556 --> 0:26:04.156
<v Speaker 2>my first show in front of sixty five thousand people

0:26:04.196 --> 0:26:07.236
<v Speaker 2>at the Redding festival. I didn't make a mistake and

0:26:07.316 --> 0:26:09.956
<v Speaker 2>I just played these songs. I don't even know how wow.

0:26:10.356 --> 0:26:11.996
<v Speaker 2>And I used to say, and I still kind of

0:26:12.036 --> 0:26:13.676
<v Speaker 2>do well. Base playing is easy. That's why I could

0:26:13.676 --> 0:26:14.956
<v Speaker 2>do it. And some people are like, well, it's easy

0:26:15.036 --> 0:26:15.276
<v Speaker 2>for you.

0:26:16.436 --> 0:26:18.476
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, I find other things that are easy too. I

0:26:18.516 --> 0:26:20.916
<v Speaker 1>we do find I guess one as an artist.

0:26:21.436 --> 0:26:23.436
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll tell you it was easy for me to

0:26:23.476 --> 0:26:28.196
<v Speaker 2>write my book. I was ahead, done, ahead of time. Well, actually,

0:26:28.556 --> 0:26:31.036
<v Speaker 2>when I quit music at forty to become a mother,

0:26:31.236 --> 0:26:34.116
<v Speaker 2>I founded an art center down the street Basilica Hudson,

0:26:34.156 --> 0:26:37.196
<v Speaker 2>down the street from where we are, and I mom

0:26:37.236 --> 0:26:40.956
<v Speaker 2>and pop alternative art center reclaimed eighteen eighties factory on

0:26:40.956 --> 0:26:45.356
<v Speaker 2>the Hudson River, and I managed, promoted, and booked all

0:26:45.396 --> 0:26:47.796
<v Speaker 2>our music festivals for decades. So when I wanted to

0:26:47.876 --> 0:26:50.276
<v Speaker 2>raise my daughter in an environment that was creative and exciting,

0:26:50.756 --> 0:26:53.316
<v Speaker 2>I moved a small town America after growing up at

0:26:53.356 --> 0:26:55.436
<v Speaker 2>the best city in the world, Montreal. So I wanted

0:26:55.476 --> 0:26:59.956
<v Speaker 2>to bring the vibrant counterculture, alternative culture to the city

0:26:59.996 --> 0:27:02.676
<v Speaker 2>I was raising my daughter. So we founded this art center,

0:27:02.756 --> 0:27:05.716
<v Speaker 2>Basilica Hudson, and I wrote every press release. I mean,

0:27:05.756 --> 0:27:07.676
<v Speaker 2>I was promoting the whole thing in it. But I

0:27:07.756 --> 0:27:11.916
<v Speaker 2>also someone recently because I've been trying to do social

0:27:11.996 --> 0:27:14.196
<v Speaker 2>media this year, because I was not on social media.

0:27:14.556 --> 0:27:16.956
<v Speaker 2>I kind of quit in twenty ten. I had a blog,

0:27:17.356 --> 0:27:20.076
<v Speaker 2>like from two thousand to twenty ten, so my web

0:27:20.156 --> 0:27:23.356
<v Speaker 2>people have been noting like, hey, you were writing, like

0:27:23.436 --> 0:27:26.076
<v Speaker 2>that's why we're kicking off my substuct you know next month.

0:27:26.196 --> 0:27:31.556
<v Speaker 2>Is that I always was blogging when I and when

0:27:31.596 --> 0:27:35.436
<v Speaker 2>the blogs came. When the internet arrived, I started right

0:27:35.516 --> 0:27:39.876
<v Speaker 2>away these diary entries which are kind of full like beginning,

0:27:39.956 --> 0:27:40.716
<v Speaker 2>middle end.

0:27:41.076 --> 0:27:42.916
<v Speaker 1>But do you mean them to be or do they

0:27:42.996 --> 0:27:43.356
<v Speaker 1>just come out?

0:27:43.516 --> 0:27:45.156
<v Speaker 2>It just come that way. It's like I want to

0:27:45.276 --> 0:27:48.516
<v Speaker 2>tell this thing. But I mean, having spoken about my

0:27:48.636 --> 0:27:51.876
<v Speaker 2>father and the ease in which I wrote this book,

0:27:52.076 --> 0:27:55.876
<v Speaker 2>I am completely convinced that he wrote it with me.

0:27:56.236 --> 0:27:58.716
<v Speaker 2>There so not only just you know, on my shoulder,

0:27:58.996 --> 0:28:02.556
<v Speaker 2>definitely writing it with me. But I grew up reading

0:28:02.676 --> 0:28:04.916
<v Speaker 2>about my life in the city, the life of my

0:28:05.036 --> 0:28:08.836
<v Speaker 2>city in his articles, and he has a very particular

0:28:08.916 --> 0:28:12.596
<v Speaker 2>call the beginning middle end way of storytelling. And I

0:28:12.716 --> 0:28:17.956
<v Speaker 2>think having had my childhood narrated by somebody has shaped

0:28:17.996 --> 0:28:21.036
<v Speaker 2>the way I walk through the world, narrating my own

0:28:21.316 --> 0:28:23.996
<v Speaker 2>day and my own month and my own decade. And

0:28:24.676 --> 0:28:27.036
<v Speaker 2>I think that's why it came so easily. But that

0:28:27.196 --> 0:28:30.596
<v Speaker 2>being said, it wouldn't necessarily have been easy or good.

0:28:30.836 --> 0:28:33.516
<v Speaker 2>And apparently it's good in terms.

0:28:33.316 --> 0:28:35.876
<v Speaker 1>Of off this writing this did I mean it probably

0:28:35.876 --> 0:28:38.076
<v Speaker 1>would have found its way to me anyways. I love music,

0:28:38.156 --> 0:28:41.076
<v Speaker 1>I love to read, and so whatever. But it's very good.

0:28:41.356 --> 0:28:42.956
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's really thank you.

0:28:43.156 --> 0:28:45.556
<v Speaker 2>I am super proud of too things.

0:28:46.116 --> 0:28:46.956
<v Speaker 1>But it's so long.

0:28:47.036 --> 0:28:49.156
<v Speaker 2>It's one hundred pages longer than they asked me to

0:28:49.316 --> 0:28:52.196
<v Speaker 2>And when I submitted my book, I had already cut

0:28:52.356 --> 0:28:56.796
<v Speaker 2>a hundred pages out of this. So I now realize

0:28:56.836 --> 0:28:58.716
<v Speaker 2>the sub stack will probably have a lot of the

0:28:58.836 --> 0:29:02.116
<v Speaker 2>outtakes because I had to cut a ton of the

0:29:02.196 --> 0:29:07.596
<v Speaker 2>Jeff Buckley story that like lots of interesting like sidebars

0:29:07.636 --> 0:29:09.356
<v Speaker 2>that I wish I didn't have to cut. It was

0:29:09.436 --> 0:29:12.716
<v Speaker 2>literally six hundred pages, so I cut one hundred plus

0:29:12.796 --> 0:29:15.716
<v Speaker 2>pages out, and when I submitted it to the publisher,

0:29:17.036 --> 0:29:19.276
<v Speaker 2>I wrote a cover letter that said, I know this

0:29:19.516 --> 0:29:23.076
<v Speaker 2>is longer than you asked for, but I couldn't help

0:29:23.116 --> 0:29:27.556
<v Speaker 2>but notice that Thurston More in Flees memoirs were about

0:29:27.636 --> 0:29:31.436
<v Speaker 2>this long, and I think there's less women in my

0:29:31.916 --> 0:29:35.196
<v Speaker 2>department telling those stories, so I think we should probably

0:29:35.356 --> 0:29:39.356
<v Speaker 2>keep it as long as it is. And I got

0:29:39.476 --> 0:29:43.236
<v Speaker 2>greenlit the exact book that I handed in, nothing edited.

0:29:43.356 --> 0:29:45.716
<v Speaker 2>I was ready to cut. It's like we could cut,

0:29:45.796 --> 0:29:48.756
<v Speaker 2>like the details about my Welsh choir teacher. You know,

0:29:48.876 --> 0:29:50.836
<v Speaker 2>if you're really looking to trim it down, you're like, no,

0:29:50.996 --> 0:29:54.316
<v Speaker 2>we're keeping the Welsh choir teacher. Okay, great, but to

0:29:54.796 --> 0:29:58.716
<v Speaker 2>the point of it being well written. Both my parents

0:29:58.796 --> 0:30:00.836
<v Speaker 2>were the most My mother is still alive and a

0:30:00.956 --> 0:30:04.036
<v Speaker 2>master of the word. She's a literary translator. She lives

0:30:04.116 --> 0:30:06.596
<v Speaker 2>in the world of manuscripts and has for fifty years.

0:30:06.676 --> 0:30:10.956
<v Speaker 2>So like I watch her. Her days ruled by now

0:30:11.036 --> 0:30:12.996
<v Speaker 2>a computer. But when I was growing up, a typewriter

0:30:13.276 --> 0:30:14.916
<v Speaker 2>and hundreds and hundreds of pages.

0:30:14.996 --> 0:30:15.716
<v Speaker 1>It's just so.

0:30:15.916 --> 0:30:18.036
<v Speaker 2>And my father wrote his articles at the bar and

0:30:18.076 --> 0:30:20.876
<v Speaker 2>a typewriter. So the written word was the power of

0:30:20.956 --> 0:30:24.956
<v Speaker 2>my parents, but it translated into their talking the way

0:30:25.116 --> 0:30:27.956
<v Speaker 2>they communicate. My mother is one of the most eloquent

0:30:28.676 --> 0:30:32.476
<v Speaker 2>speakers of anything, culture, anything emotion. So I was raised

0:30:32.516 --> 0:30:36.756
<v Speaker 2>by good speaking people were amazing writers, and so that

0:30:36.956 --> 0:30:40.796
<v Speaker 2>ended up fueling obviously some kind of like I didn't

0:30:40.836 --> 0:30:42.956
<v Speaker 2>know that I had it, but I managed a channel,

0:30:42.996 --> 0:30:45.956
<v Speaker 2>I suppose. But when I had, right when I had

0:30:45.996 --> 0:30:48.316
<v Speaker 2>handed in the book, they were psyched. We were waiting

0:30:48.436 --> 0:30:51.516
<v Speaker 2>for the first industry reviews to come to sort of

0:30:51.556 --> 0:30:54.356
<v Speaker 2>get the bell weather of what those book buyer kind

0:30:54.396 --> 0:30:57.276
<v Speaker 2>of librarian people, not like reviews of like rock people

0:30:57.276 --> 0:31:00.556
<v Speaker 2>who care about Dave Girl. So it was like we're

0:31:00.556 --> 0:31:03.276
<v Speaker 2>all waiting of like what's what are the initial reviews

0:31:03.356 --> 0:31:05.876
<v Speaker 2>going to be? And I remember it happened to be

0:31:05.956 --> 0:31:09.196
<v Speaker 2>around then that Evan Dando put out his memoir and

0:31:10.516 --> 0:31:12.636
<v Speaker 2>I was invited to go see him play. I hadn't

0:31:12.636 --> 0:31:16.476
<v Speaker 2>seen the Lemonheads and obviously Forever, and I went to

0:31:16.876 --> 0:31:19.156
<v Speaker 2>the show in New York City and I hadn't seen Evan,

0:31:19.236 --> 0:31:22.356
<v Speaker 2>who was a big part of unless he was cut

0:31:22.396 --> 0:31:25.556
<v Speaker 2>out too, so like there's one he's not in there,

0:31:26.276 --> 0:31:28.476
<v Speaker 2>But like there's so many people I had to get balance,

0:31:28.596 --> 0:31:30.276
<v Speaker 2>like how many guys and bands am I going to

0:31:30.316 --> 0:31:33.596
<v Speaker 2>talk about? How many? Versus how many spiritual visions I had?

0:31:34.356 --> 0:31:36.996
<v Speaker 2>So anyhow, I ran it. I went to see him

0:31:37.036 --> 0:31:40.196
<v Speaker 2>backstage before the show and I said congratulations on your book.

0:31:40.196 --> 0:31:42.116
<v Speaker 2>And he said, oh, I hear you have one memoir

0:31:42.196 --> 0:31:43.876
<v Speaker 2>coming out, right, And I said yeah, and he said

0:31:43.916 --> 0:31:46.716
<v Speaker 2>have you read it yet? And I said read it?

0:31:47.556 --> 0:31:50.396
<v Speaker 2>I wrote it and he said, oh, I didn't read

0:31:50.436 --> 0:31:53.796
<v Speaker 2>mine until I was doing the audio book. Granted, Evan

0:31:53.916 --> 0:31:55.516
<v Speaker 2>is like proudly a mess.

0:31:56.476 --> 0:31:57.956
<v Speaker 1>But I thought he was like a literary I mean,

0:31:57.956 --> 0:31:58.996
<v Speaker 1>he's a smart.

0:31:58.716 --> 0:32:00.836
<v Speaker 2>Guy, but I guess he doesn't have the discipline perhaps

0:32:00.876 --> 0:32:03.036
<v Speaker 2>to write. I'm sure he dictated stuff. All I know

0:32:03.236 --> 0:32:05.316
<v Speaker 2>is that's what he said to me. I think it

0:32:05.396 --> 0:32:08.556
<v Speaker 2>was known even I'm not busting his spot because I

0:32:08.636 --> 0:32:10.596
<v Speaker 2>think it was even said in New York Times, like

0:32:10.956 --> 0:32:13.836
<v Speaker 2>he didn't write it. But I then went back to

0:32:13.996 --> 0:32:17.276
<v Speaker 2>my publishers, who I love, Hashet de Capo and my

0:32:17.436 --> 0:32:21.716
<v Speaker 2>agents and said, wait a second, Evan didn't write his book.

0:32:21.796 --> 0:32:24.996
<v Speaker 2>Tell me more like, well, most rock memoirs are ghostwritten.

0:32:25.716 --> 0:32:28.356
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't know that. And I said, oh shit,

0:32:28.556 --> 0:32:30.836
<v Speaker 2>are people going to think somebody else wrote my book?

0:32:31.236 --> 0:32:34.356
<v Speaker 2>And hands down my agents and publishers and I think

0:32:34.396 --> 0:32:37.916
<v Speaker 2>it translated into the way it was received, said absolutely not.

0:32:38.276 --> 0:32:41.916
<v Speaker 2>It's too personal, it's too originales. Oh, they'll think.

0:32:42.036 --> 0:32:44.916
<v Speaker 1>Exactly what we just assume right picking it up, this

0:32:45.036 --> 0:32:45.436
<v Speaker 1>is going to be.

0:32:46.116 --> 0:32:48.436
<v Speaker 2>But anyone who can get through a book or who

0:32:48.556 --> 0:32:51.676
<v Speaker 2>cares about writing, apparently, if you read it, you can

0:32:51.756 --> 0:32:54.396
<v Speaker 2>tell no one could have channeled like it's because it's

0:32:54.436 --> 0:32:56.516
<v Speaker 2>not just I guess my voice that I found, but

0:32:56.636 --> 0:32:58.996
<v Speaker 2>it is the thing I worked the hardest on, which

0:32:59.076 --> 0:33:01.836
<v Speaker 2>is where the bass player in me comes out. Is

0:33:02.076 --> 0:33:06.676
<v Speaker 2>the arc of the arrangement in a song. It's verse,

0:33:06.756 --> 0:33:09.756
<v Speaker 2>chorus versus chorus, bridge, bridge bridge. It's like I built

0:33:09.836 --> 0:33:13.996
<v Speaker 2>a structure of this book that reflected a song arrangement

0:33:14.596 --> 0:33:19.676
<v Speaker 2>of Dreamscape number one, Dreamscape number two, father interlude. So

0:33:19.756 --> 0:33:22.196
<v Speaker 2>I have all of these sort of interludes and then

0:33:22.236 --> 0:33:24.396
<v Speaker 2>broken up by my photos. So I really wanted to

0:33:24.796 --> 0:33:28.076
<v Speaker 2>be a journey and not just a literary experience. And

0:33:28.636 --> 0:33:31.036
<v Speaker 2>apparently people believe I wrote it, and I did write it.

0:33:31.196 --> 0:33:32.116
<v Speaker 2>You've heard it here.

0:33:32.196 --> 0:33:35.996
<v Speaker 1>Now after the break, we're back with the rest of

0:33:36.276 --> 0:33:44.156
<v Speaker 1>Melissa A DeMar Your dad is seemed coolest. Yeah, I

0:33:44.196 --> 0:33:46.476
<v Speaker 1>mean your mom too, But I really did relate to

0:33:46.596 --> 0:33:48.796
<v Speaker 1>your your dad in so many lays.

0:33:48.836 --> 0:33:52.156
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like timeless journalists that I hope still.

0:33:52.436 --> 0:33:55.036
<v Speaker 1>Exist, I don't know. I don't think they did.

0:33:56.716 --> 0:33:59.756
<v Speaker 2>He was definitely from another century already, so now they're

0:33:59.796 --> 0:34:04.236
<v Speaker 2>really outdated. Yeah yeah, right before coming into this, I

0:34:04.436 --> 0:34:09.476
<v Speaker 2>was approving as the error of to his like see

0:34:09.476 --> 0:34:11.596
<v Speaker 2>in writing I'm It's only child, but I was just

0:34:11.716 --> 0:34:16.196
<v Speaker 2>a hit. Just received a request from moment Factory. You

0:34:16.276 --> 0:34:18.116
<v Speaker 2>know that's a big and immersive you know, they're a

0:34:18.156 --> 0:34:20.956
<v Speaker 2>Montreal based thing, but they do all the Billie Eilish

0:34:21.116 --> 0:34:24.636
<v Speaker 2>like Olivia Adrigou everything shows. But they also have deep

0:34:24.716 --> 0:34:27.676
<v Speaker 2>roots in Montreal and Montreal is really invests in their

0:34:27.756 --> 0:34:31.876
<v Speaker 2>culture queebeck. Even over the rest of Canada, the government

0:34:32.076 --> 0:34:36.116
<v Speaker 2>invests in the identity and the artists and the culture

0:34:36.276 --> 0:34:40.276
<v Speaker 2>of the city and so there's always something. So Moment

0:34:40.356 --> 0:34:43.796
<v Speaker 2>Factory decorate the Montreal and the city of Montreal with

0:34:43.876 --> 0:34:46.356
<v Speaker 2>installations all over the place. So like, for example, our

0:34:46.476 --> 0:34:49.596
<v Speaker 2>mini Notre Dame Cathedral, you know, which is the miniature

0:34:49.636 --> 0:34:52.116
<v Speaker 2>of the Paris one. Moment Factory has one of my

0:34:52.236 --> 0:34:58.956
<v Speaker 2>favorite like New Age Cathedral video sonic shows. Some people

0:34:58.996 --> 0:35:01.076
<v Speaker 2>think it's kind of like cheesy, but Montreal has this

0:35:01.196 --> 0:35:04.396
<v Speaker 2>really cool lo fi hi fi thing where it's an

0:35:04.436 --> 0:35:06.836
<v Speaker 2>ancient city but it's super high tech, which is why

0:35:06.956 --> 0:35:09.636
<v Speaker 2>moment Factory and all like the special effects for films

0:35:09.756 --> 0:35:12.716
<v Speaker 2>like the French Canadian. The quebecer is a very very

0:35:12.916 --> 0:35:15.996
<v Speaker 2>like high tech, but the culture is very ancient and

0:35:16.276 --> 0:35:19.916
<v Speaker 2>so but there's always these interventions happening between futuristic video

0:35:19.996 --> 0:35:22.876
<v Speaker 2>installation mon Factory and an old place in Montreal. And

0:35:22.956 --> 0:35:27.076
<v Speaker 2>I just as I was walking into this interview, was

0:35:27.476 --> 0:35:30.636
<v Speaker 2>approving the use of a quote of my father's for

0:35:30.956 --> 0:35:34.116
<v Speaker 2>a moment Factory video installation they're going to be doing

0:35:34.156 --> 0:35:36.876
<v Speaker 2>at the Montreal Cemetery. So the Montreal Cemetery is the

0:35:36.916 --> 0:35:40.836
<v Speaker 2>equivalent of pat Laches and it was for Canada, you know,

0:35:40.916 --> 0:35:44.356
<v Speaker 2>for like old cemeteries. But it was designed by Home Homestead,

0:35:44.396 --> 0:35:47.156
<v Speaker 2>who did Central Park. So all of Montreal is based

0:35:47.156 --> 0:35:51.796
<v Speaker 2>around this, this giant, beautiful mountain, so Mount Royal, the

0:35:51.876 --> 0:35:52.836
<v Speaker 2>Royal Mountain.

0:35:52.636 --> 0:35:55.476
<v Speaker 1>That has been a park exactly.

0:35:55.716 --> 0:35:57.116
<v Speaker 2>And I grew up in front of the park. I

0:35:57.156 --> 0:36:00.036
<v Speaker 2>grew up on the park and the cemetery is on

0:36:00.116 --> 0:36:02.316
<v Speaker 2>the top of the mountain. My father is buried there.

0:36:02.876 --> 0:36:07.156
<v Speaker 2>And Moment Factory are doing an immersive history tour of

0:36:07.316 --> 0:36:11.436
<v Speaker 2>the museum of the cemetery, like projections Dead of Winter.

0:36:11.956 --> 0:36:15.036
<v Speaker 2>So they were getting my approval as my father's error

0:36:15.116 --> 0:36:17.876
<v Speaker 2>to approve the quote that I don't know if it's

0:36:17.916 --> 0:36:21.156
<v Speaker 2>going to be written on his tombstone or audio projected,

0:36:21.476 --> 0:36:24.996
<v Speaker 2>but it is. My life has been so much fun

0:36:25.196 --> 0:36:30.156
<v Speaker 2>it should be illegal. And he, you know, he had

0:36:30.196 --> 0:36:33.836
<v Speaker 2>the largest funeral of Montreal history. He was completely in

0:36:34.036 --> 0:36:36.436
<v Speaker 2>love with his city. His city was his muse. He

0:36:36.596 --> 0:36:41.476
<v Speaker 2>gave every bar, every alleyway, every homeless person, every nune

0:36:41.876 --> 0:36:45.676
<v Speaker 2>all the love equally. And he devoted himself to that

0:36:45.796 --> 0:36:48.396
<v Speaker 2>city but burned at both ends by being a journalist

0:36:48.476 --> 0:36:51.556
<v Speaker 2>and a basically an ambassador of the spirit of that city.

0:36:51.676 --> 0:36:52.996
<v Speaker 1>And he was a journalist, but he was also like

0:36:53.956 --> 0:36:55.876
<v Speaker 1>a bit I can mean, you know, run. He did

0:36:55.916 --> 0:36:57.356
<v Speaker 1>a bit of every I mean. So he was a.

0:36:57.396 --> 0:37:01.436
<v Speaker 2>Journalist, of course. He started as a newspaper journalist, but

0:37:01.516 --> 0:37:04.596
<v Speaker 2>then grew into radio, had his own television series which

0:37:04.716 --> 0:37:08.396
<v Speaker 2>is on CBC, so ahead of its time, like Vice TV.

0:37:08.676 --> 0:37:11.556
<v Speaker 2>Probably were directly inspired because those are guys I grew

0:37:11.636 --> 0:37:16.396
<v Speaker 2>up with. But it's nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy three,

0:37:16.636 --> 0:37:20.196
<v Speaker 2>every summer man and a camera on the streets of

0:37:20.276 --> 0:37:24.596
<v Speaker 2>Montreal asking the people of Montreal at that counterculture moment,

0:37:25.516 --> 0:37:28.116
<v Speaker 2>what's on your mind, and they would just stand with

0:37:28.196 --> 0:37:32.196
<v Speaker 2>the camera and speak to all the wild people in

0:37:32.276 --> 0:37:34.636
<v Speaker 2>the hot summer streets in Montreal. I have all the

0:37:34.796 --> 0:37:38.796
<v Speaker 2>archives are incredible, and that's what got my father into politics.

0:37:38.916 --> 0:37:41.156
<v Speaker 2>So he had as had his own radio and then

0:37:41.196 --> 0:37:43.356
<v Speaker 2>his own TV show, and he met the people who

0:37:43.436 --> 0:37:47.436
<v Speaker 2>are the voters who were not satisfied with the politicians.

0:37:47.516 --> 0:37:50.836
<v Speaker 2>So when my father got into Montreal politics and won

0:37:50.916 --> 0:37:53.436
<v Speaker 2>as an independent in nineteen seventy four at the age

0:37:53.476 --> 0:37:55.756
<v Speaker 2>of thirty two, it had never been in politics. He

0:37:55.876 --> 0:38:02.076
<v Speaker 2>wins his first election and continues to run different districts,

0:38:02.116 --> 0:38:05.116
<v Speaker 2>but then eventually gets the stronghold of downtown Montreal as

0:38:05.196 --> 0:38:09.996
<v Speaker 2>his neighborhood. And all the bar owners, all the little ladies,

0:38:10.036 --> 0:38:13.516
<v Speaker 2>everybody depends on my father. His father. His number is

0:38:13.596 --> 0:38:15.316
<v Speaker 2>in the phone book and you can call him twenty

0:38:15.356 --> 0:38:17.676
<v Speaker 2>four hours a day, as like the Montreal helpline. So

0:38:17.796 --> 0:38:20.676
<v Speaker 2>my father lived to be that guy that you could

0:38:20.676 --> 0:38:23.236
<v Speaker 2>stop on the street and complain about your garbage pickup

0:38:23.316 --> 0:38:26.636
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. And then when I got old enough and

0:38:26.756 --> 0:38:29.076
<v Speaker 2>I was on the campaign trails with him and knocking

0:38:29.156 --> 0:38:32.356
<v Speaker 2>on doors and waiting on election night getting all of

0:38:32.476 --> 0:38:34.396
<v Speaker 2>these you know, weight is he gonna lose? Is he

0:38:34.436 --> 0:38:38.076
<v Speaker 2>gonna win? And watching this like ferocious, like determination to

0:38:38.236 --> 0:38:42.036
<v Speaker 2>represent the people of Montreal, and as a twelve year

0:38:42.036 --> 0:38:45.476
<v Speaker 2>old girl being like I remember one night being so scared,

0:38:45.636 --> 0:38:48.276
<v Speaker 2>like if he loses, he'll be so disappointed. He works

0:38:48.316 --> 0:38:51.196
<v Speaker 2>so hard, and I remember tugging on his sleeve and saying, Nick,

0:38:51.396 --> 0:38:56.716
<v Speaker 2>why do you do this? And like this is why

0:38:56.796 --> 0:38:59.316
<v Speaker 2>he's my hero. And he looked down. He said, Melissa,

0:38:59.516 --> 0:39:03.436
<v Speaker 2>because I don't trust those assholes to do this, and

0:39:03.596 --> 0:39:06.516
<v Speaker 2>this is what we should all be living by right now.

0:39:06.636 --> 0:39:09.316
<v Speaker 2>Don't trust the asshole politicians to be taking care of

0:39:09.356 --> 0:39:11.356
<v Speaker 2>the people. And he did it, and he had the

0:39:11.476 --> 0:39:14.236
<v Speaker 2>voice of his column He wrote from the Montreal Gazette

0:39:14.276 --> 0:39:16.876
<v Speaker 2>three days a week for his whole career, and it

0:39:16.996 --> 0:39:20.636
<v Speaker 2>was just what's happening in Montreal. He was the voice

0:39:20.836 --> 0:39:23.116
<v Speaker 2>of this is and he had his morning radio slot,

0:39:23.476 --> 0:39:26.276
<v Speaker 2>but mainly his columns, which then was a book when

0:39:27.076 --> 0:39:29.556
<v Speaker 2>after he died, we put together a collection of his

0:39:29.756 --> 0:39:31.796
<v Speaker 2>work and it was and that's where I get a

0:39:31.836 --> 0:39:34.076
<v Speaker 2>lot of the quotes in my memoir where I bring

0:39:34.396 --> 0:39:38.156
<v Speaker 2>his stories about my life through his voice. And it

0:39:38.276 --> 0:39:40.956
<v Speaker 2>is a funny place that we're starting in this conversation

0:39:41.076 --> 0:39:45.556
<v Speaker 2>about but my father was a very particular storyteller, and

0:39:45.636 --> 0:39:47.636
<v Speaker 2>that he wrote in that format, which at the time

0:39:47.756 --> 0:39:50.196
<v Speaker 2>is like the blog slash social media of the time.

0:39:50.276 --> 0:39:53.276
<v Speaker 2>It's the sure substack whatever it is. But he just

0:39:53.356 --> 0:39:55.836
<v Speaker 2>three days a week wrote like a letter to montrealer.

0:39:55.836 --> 0:39:57.916
<v Speaker 2>It's like, hey, I'm at the bar. I met this person.

0:39:58.516 --> 0:40:02.156
<v Speaker 2>I think strawberries are stupid and raspberries are overrated. Like

0:40:02.276 --> 0:40:04.836
<v Speaker 2>he just wrote whatever the hell he wanted, and he

0:40:05.036 --> 0:40:07.116
<v Speaker 2>was the voice of Montreal. And I grew up, you know,

0:40:07.196 --> 0:40:09.596
<v Speaker 2>with kids who would tell me like we read your

0:40:09.636 --> 0:40:12.316
<v Speaker 2>father's column every morning at breakfast, and like so I

0:40:12.476 --> 0:40:15.596
<v Speaker 2>and then I was a character in the column, Like

0:40:15.716 --> 0:40:17.636
<v Speaker 2>he'd talk about what he got me for his birthday,

0:40:17.716 --> 0:40:19.716
<v Speaker 2>or the time we went to a Buddha pest and

0:40:19.796 --> 0:40:22.636
<v Speaker 2>he got scammed by a person with the coconut shells

0:40:22.676 --> 0:40:24.756
<v Speaker 2>and he lost one hundred bucks. Like this was just

0:40:24.876 --> 0:40:25.596
<v Speaker 2>he just told him.

0:40:25.676 --> 0:40:27.076
<v Speaker 1>Dad looks at the kind of person who would be

0:40:27.236 --> 0:40:28.916
<v Speaker 1>thrilled that he got scammed by breast.

0:40:29.116 --> 0:40:31.036
<v Speaker 2>He yes, and again I was scared.

0:40:31.196 --> 0:40:31.516
<v Speaker 1>Is he mad?

0:40:31.596 --> 0:40:33.116
<v Speaker 2>He was kind of laughing. He's like, I can't believe.

0:40:33.116 --> 0:40:34.796
<v Speaker 2>And then he tried to go back to find the guy.

0:40:34.916 --> 0:40:36.196
<v Speaker 2>I was like, you're not gonna be able to find

0:40:36.236 --> 0:40:39.316
<v Speaker 2>this guy anyhow. He was incredible, but he died at

0:40:39.356 --> 0:40:40.476
<v Speaker 2>my age that I am right.

0:40:40.396 --> 0:40:44.836
<v Speaker 1>Now, you're oh, yes, So does do you have this

0:40:44.996 --> 0:40:48.356
<v Speaker 1>sort of typical the usual thing? I keep wanting both

0:40:48.396 --> 0:40:52.316
<v Speaker 1>my parents are still alive, and but I sort of

0:40:52.356 --> 0:40:54.036
<v Speaker 1>wonderf that'll happen to me as well. But I feel

0:40:54.036 --> 0:40:55.916
<v Speaker 1>like there is a thing where people sort of start

0:40:55.996 --> 0:40:59.556
<v Speaker 1>to get anxious around well to their parents.

0:40:59.756 --> 0:41:02.396
<v Speaker 2>Well, grief is a beast. So no matter what, death

0:41:02.516 --> 0:41:06.516
<v Speaker 2>is the greatest mystery other than love, because love is

0:41:06.596 --> 0:41:08.676
<v Speaker 2>throughout life, but death is over and then it's just

0:41:08.796 --> 0:41:12.236
<v Speaker 2>left of those who didn't die to deal with the

0:41:12.316 --> 0:41:15.996
<v Speaker 2>mystery of what the health. Yeah, and so I think,

0:41:16.076 --> 0:41:19.996
<v Speaker 2>if anything, I get tingling and weird every Easter, because

0:41:20.036 --> 0:41:24.596
<v Speaker 2>he died on Good Friday, cremated on Easter Sunday, and

0:41:24.916 --> 0:41:28.516
<v Speaker 2>buried at the biggest funeral Montreal history on Easter Monday.

0:41:28.716 --> 0:41:32.276
<v Speaker 2>So we had this arc and every time Easter comes,

0:41:32.356 --> 0:41:35.316
<v Speaker 2>I start my DNA starts sort of like flickering, and

0:41:35.396 --> 0:41:40.716
<v Speaker 2>I start having new feelings about him. I think it's

0:41:40.796 --> 0:41:43.956
<v Speaker 2>been like twenty seven years now, or something. So it's

0:41:44.196 --> 0:41:46.316
<v Speaker 2>and that it doesn't change like there was at the

0:41:46.356 --> 0:41:48.316
<v Speaker 2>twenty five year anniversary. I think it might have been

0:41:48.316 --> 0:41:52.236
<v Speaker 2>the first time I wept, like like I just woke up.

0:41:52.396 --> 0:41:56.556
<v Speaker 2>I realized this is horrific. This is it's still it's

0:41:56.596 --> 0:41:59.956
<v Speaker 2>like you protect yourself from loss and grief. But what's

0:41:59.996 --> 0:42:02.956
<v Speaker 2>interesting is now that I'm on the eve of turning

0:42:03.076 --> 0:42:06.236
<v Speaker 2>the age that he was when he died. I mean,

0:42:06.316 --> 0:42:08.836
<v Speaker 2>I have actually felt a tiny bit spooked about that,

0:42:09.116 --> 0:42:11.916
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not you know, I'm not afraid of death actually,

0:42:11.956 --> 0:42:16.076
<v Speaker 2>and I'm grateful that I witnessed my father diet at

0:42:16.116 --> 0:42:18.036
<v Speaker 2>the young age my I was twenty six, and it

0:42:18.156 --> 0:42:20.276
<v Speaker 2>was the greatest gift gateway of my life to be

0:42:20.356 --> 0:42:23.196
<v Speaker 2>able to like just look straight on at the brutality

0:42:23.276 --> 0:42:27.436
<v Speaker 2>of like how especially the way he went out. Just fuck,

0:42:27.516 --> 0:42:29.236
<v Speaker 2>you can't live. See you later.

0:42:29.436 --> 0:42:33.316
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're such a fun person to talk to you.

0:42:33.356 --> 0:42:34.996
<v Speaker 1>I wish I had even more time.

0:42:35.476 --> 0:42:37.556
<v Speaker 2>Do you have any other questions? I didn't answer.

0:42:37.596 --> 0:42:41.716
<v Speaker 1>I have a bunch of questions. So doing celebrity skin

0:42:44.196 --> 0:42:47.076
<v Speaker 1>your drummer, bile drummer and hold patty? Yeah?

0:42:47.156 --> 0:42:48.716
<v Speaker 2>She u booted out.

0:42:49.036 --> 0:42:50.516
<v Speaker 1>She gets replaced by a man.

0:42:51.796 --> 0:42:55.476
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what brutal, what terrible, tragic, horrible.

0:42:55.196 --> 0:42:58.756
<v Speaker 1>And the producer is a guy who is interested. I don't.

0:42:58.996 --> 0:43:01.116
<v Speaker 2>I've never yeah, Michael byin her, and he had a

0:43:01.156 --> 0:43:03.916
<v Speaker 2>reputation at the time for making hit records about being

0:43:04.076 --> 0:43:06.436
<v Speaker 2>hard on drummers, so we kind of knew it going in.

0:43:07.276 --> 0:43:09.636
<v Speaker 1>Was that his agenda to get her possible.

0:43:10.236 --> 0:43:12.956
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the thing that's so tragic about it is

0:43:13.036 --> 0:43:16.676
<v Speaker 2>that what makes Celebrity Skin great is the songs. And

0:43:16.796 --> 0:43:19.956
<v Speaker 2>Patti wrote all those parts, and we worked for years

0:43:19.996 --> 0:43:24.596
<v Speaker 2>writing that record, and her punk meets just the coolest

0:43:24.636 --> 0:43:27.356
<v Speaker 2>style of drumming. The record is great because she wrote

0:43:27.956 --> 0:43:30.916
<v Speaker 2>me and her wrote together as bass player, drummer, rhythm

0:43:31.036 --> 0:43:32.236
<v Speaker 2>section in that style.

0:43:32.316 --> 0:43:32.716
<v Speaker 1>That is that.

0:43:33.756 --> 0:43:37.956
<v Speaker 2>But the agenda for everyone, for the managers, the label,

0:43:38.036 --> 0:43:42.156
<v Speaker 2>and for Courtney the bandleader, was make the most glossy,

0:43:43.276 --> 0:43:47.276
<v Speaker 2>radio friendly, ready to go hit record. That's what was

0:43:48.076 --> 0:43:53.836
<v Speaker 2>being commissioned. And so, according to some people, perfect drums

0:43:54.636 --> 0:43:57.396
<v Speaker 2>and not nuance. But then I also write a whole

0:43:57.596 --> 0:44:00.076
<v Speaker 2>chapter which you might remember, called the Rise of the

0:44:00.636 --> 0:44:04.276
<v Speaker 2>Digital soul Sucking Monster, where I discover there's a new

0:44:04.356 --> 0:44:06.916
<v Speaker 2>invention called pro tools, and it lives in a tiny

0:44:06.996 --> 0:44:10.876
<v Speaker 2>toaster and it's leaving our fabulous, expensive studio and going

0:44:11.076 --> 0:44:14.756
<v Speaker 2>up into Runyan Canyon with all these guys doing coke

0:44:14.836 --> 0:44:18.516
<v Speaker 2>on computers fixing drum and bass parts. I was like,

0:44:18.676 --> 0:44:21.916
<v Speaker 2>excuse me, what is happening actually, And so I write,

0:44:21.996 --> 0:44:25.196
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole chapter dedicated to what I saw coming,

0:44:25.756 --> 0:44:28.396
<v Speaker 2>and I will and the joke is, yeah, they wanted

0:44:28.436 --> 0:44:30.996
<v Speaker 2>it to be perfect. And I describe this conversation of

0:44:31.116 --> 0:44:33.636
<v Speaker 2>me and this pro tools engineer, which was like a

0:44:33.756 --> 0:44:38.996
<v Speaker 2>new specimen of human explaining showing me these wavelengths, like,

0:44:39.316 --> 0:44:42.356
<v Speaker 2>is that what they're called wavelengths? Yes, this is your

0:44:42.396 --> 0:44:45.836
<v Speaker 2>base part waveforms, thank you, this is your base part.

0:44:45.956 --> 0:44:47.876
<v Speaker 2>This is the kick drum, and I'm moving it to

0:44:47.956 --> 0:44:50.516
<v Speaker 2>make it perfectly. And I said, wait wait, but he said,

0:44:50.556 --> 0:44:53.236
<v Speaker 2>Michael wants them perfect. And I said, I said, but wait,

0:44:53.356 --> 0:44:56.436
<v Speaker 2>but what about the perfection of human imperfection? Are we

0:44:56.636 --> 0:44:59.116
<v Speaker 2>risking losing? And what's cool?

0:44:59.236 --> 0:44:59.396
<v Speaker 1>Though?

0:44:59.556 --> 0:45:01.836
<v Speaker 2>Now I have to say, I mean the making celebrity

0:45:01.836 --> 0:45:04.396
<v Speaker 2>skin was so painful because I lost my best friend

0:45:04.436 --> 0:45:08.356
<v Speaker 2>in the band. She didn't die, but she did disappear

0:45:08.436 --> 0:45:10.636
<v Speaker 2>to her addiction for a decade after that, So it

0:45:10.836 --> 0:45:13.876
<v Speaker 2>was like losing her, and then also just the turmoil

0:45:13.956 --> 0:45:16.916
<v Speaker 2>of the pressure of like make the hit, and just

0:45:16.996 --> 0:45:20.196
<v Speaker 2>like the fame that was rising, and Courtney's miracle of

0:45:20.996 --> 0:45:24.316
<v Speaker 2>becoming all of a sudden a red carpet ready, like

0:45:24.476 --> 0:45:27.676
<v Speaker 2>the whole transition that what happened during Celebrity Skin was

0:45:27.756 --> 0:45:31.356
<v Speaker 2>so drastic, So there was a lot of pain wrapped

0:45:31.396 --> 0:45:33.796
<v Speaker 2>in and my father died while we were making it,

0:45:33.916 --> 0:45:36.196
<v Speaker 2>on the eve of releasing it, so I was a

0:45:36.316 --> 0:45:40.076
<v Speaker 2>shell of a human. So I have very painful associations

0:45:40.116 --> 0:45:42.556
<v Speaker 2>with making the record, But twenty five years later, I'm

0:45:42.716 --> 0:45:46.316
<v Speaker 2>very proud that it stands very strong again, mostly for

0:45:46.396 --> 0:45:49.516
<v Speaker 2>the songwriting, and I'm very proud of my bass playing

0:45:49.556 --> 0:45:51.316
<v Speaker 2>and my backups, so you know, there's like twelve of

0:45:51.436 --> 0:45:54.636
<v Speaker 2>my vocals to every one of Courtney's growls. So proud

0:45:54.676 --> 0:45:57.836
<v Speaker 2>of it. And I think it has also aged beautifully

0:45:58.076 --> 0:46:06.076
<v Speaker 2>as far as authentic tape recording and slight pro tools intervention.

0:46:06.396 --> 0:46:08.596
<v Speaker 2>So now we've gone too far, you know, now. I

0:46:08.676 --> 0:46:11.796
<v Speaker 2>mean that's obviously everything from dance music to pop to

0:46:11.916 --> 0:46:13.756
<v Speaker 2>hip hop. I mean, obviously it's a lot of it's

0:46:13.756 --> 0:46:16.436
<v Speaker 2>all mad on machines, But as far as rock bands go,

0:46:17.276 --> 0:46:20.516
<v Speaker 2>it's very important. And I'm assuming Rick Rubin is still

0:46:20.636 --> 0:46:22.636
<v Speaker 2>making real records with bands in the room, you know,

0:46:22.756 --> 0:46:26.076
<v Speaker 2>like that's still that's so rare now because a bands

0:46:26.156 --> 0:46:28.756
<v Speaker 2>don't even exist because people can't afford practice spaces, so

0:46:28.796 --> 0:46:30.916
<v Speaker 2>you can't everyone's at home making their music because you

0:46:30.956 --> 0:46:32.676
<v Speaker 2>can't have a drummer and a bass where and you

0:46:33.036 --> 0:46:35.036
<v Speaker 2>have to have ten jobs to be able to do anything,

0:46:35.116 --> 0:46:36.916
<v Speaker 2>so you can't be in the studio like in a

0:46:37.156 --> 0:46:38.756
<v Speaker 2>dumpy space for ten years.

0:46:38.836 --> 0:46:41.436
<v Speaker 1>Realized too, you know, like people used to get like

0:46:41.956 --> 0:46:44.156
<v Speaker 1>even for myself when I was in bad like the drummer.

0:46:44.236 --> 0:46:46.316
<v Speaker 1>You know, drummers just have like they can't ever stop.

0:46:46.516 --> 0:46:47.916
<v Speaker 1>I was just can't and I was thinking about how

0:46:47.956 --> 0:46:51.276
<v Speaker 1>like they amusing used to bother everybody. Yeah, you're like

0:46:51.356 --> 0:46:53.956
<v Speaker 1>the like the beat to everything is the same. You're like, well,

0:46:53.996 --> 0:46:56.036
<v Speaker 1>it's like the beat on a song ever changes, like

0:46:56.116 --> 0:46:57.956
<v Speaker 1>the rhythm. It's like the rhythm is just locked through

0:46:58.396 --> 0:47:00.716
<v Speaker 1>because you don't have a person.

0:47:02.116 --> 0:47:08.876
<v Speaker 2>Well, isn't that also reflecting like how mono are arts

0:47:08.916 --> 0:47:11.676
<v Speaker 2>and culture other than incredible artist You know, there's always

0:47:11.756 --> 0:47:16.196
<v Speaker 2>birthing of incredible radical counterculture original artists, but the general

0:47:16.916 --> 0:47:20.676
<v Speaker 2>mainstream of existence is like everyone's wearing the same clothes,

0:47:20.716 --> 0:47:24.076
<v Speaker 2>liking the same coffee, and doing the same thing on

0:47:24.116 --> 0:47:27.476
<v Speaker 2>their stupid phone. So the the the ironing out of

0:47:27.796 --> 0:47:31.236
<v Speaker 2>characters that you know, we were blessed as gen x of,

0:47:31.356 --> 0:47:34.516
<v Speaker 2>like the the Alan Gibbs, you know, the beat poets

0:47:34.556 --> 0:47:37.356
<v Speaker 2>of the sixties through the nineties, not to mention the seventies.

0:47:38.116 --> 0:47:39.076
<v Speaker 2>I know, it's cool.

0:47:39.276 --> 0:47:41.116
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm looking at the book right.

0:47:41.276 --> 0:47:43.716
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a section of the book called Fellow Travelers,

0:47:43.756 --> 0:47:46.636
<v Speaker 2>and it's the I went to art school for self portraiture,

0:47:46.676 --> 0:47:48.516
<v Speaker 2>but it turns out I went to art school for selfies,

0:47:48.516 --> 0:47:50.836
<v Speaker 2>and that's like a whole grid of showing my selfies.

0:47:50.876 --> 0:47:54.036
<v Speaker 2>I took with every from Danny DeVito to Adam Sandler

0:47:54.116 --> 0:47:59.716
<v Speaker 2>to you know where you look so young and happy

0:48:03.756 --> 0:48:06.716
<v Speaker 2>Freedom Concert, which was an amazing show, and everybody was,

0:48:07.716 --> 0:48:10.356
<v Speaker 2>you know, grateful for what we have in the liberated

0:48:10.396 --> 0:48:14.396
<v Speaker 2>America compared to at the time in the great nineties

0:48:15.036 --> 0:48:17.996
<v Speaker 2>Freedom Free Tibet Festival, Utopia.

0:48:19.116 --> 0:48:21.236
<v Speaker 1>That decade, that from ninety one to two thousand and one,

0:48:21.276 --> 0:48:23.636
<v Speaker 1>that as you explained it, with that being the decade

0:48:24.076 --> 0:48:27.716
<v Speaker 1>decades never really do start culturally like with the turn

0:48:27.796 --> 0:48:30.036
<v Speaker 1>of a right. But so nine even one, two thousand

0:48:30.036 --> 0:48:34.716
<v Speaker 1>and one, you really do capture it amazingly, and you

0:48:34.796 --> 0:48:36.956
<v Speaker 1>explain it kind of maybe as like a thing that

0:48:37.556 --> 0:48:39.716
<v Speaker 1>wasn't so great, and probably in hindsight it wasn't. As

0:48:39.756 --> 0:48:43.156
<v Speaker 1>a kid at the time, it felt amazing that popular

0:48:43.236 --> 0:48:49.356
<v Speaker 1>culture was dominated by alternative things, alternative rock, ridge hip hop,

0:48:49.676 --> 0:48:52.836
<v Speaker 1>which felt very countercultural still like scale, like everything was

0:48:52.876 --> 0:48:55.356
<v Speaker 1>counter Video games are a big business, yeah, you know,

0:48:56.036 --> 0:48:58.316
<v Speaker 1>skateboarding like all of this. So as a kid, you're like,

0:48:58.396 --> 0:49:01.796
<v Speaker 1>this is like life is amazing exactly, but you kind

0:49:01.836 --> 0:49:03.916
<v Speaker 1>of explain it, and I can understand it now is

0:49:03.956 --> 0:49:06.436
<v Speaker 1>a bit of a loss of something important.

0:49:07.676 --> 0:49:12.116
<v Speaker 2>And I stole, co opted and stole youth culture, counter

0:49:12.276 --> 0:49:14.516
<v Speaker 2>culture scene, and now you can't even have it anymore.

0:49:14.556 --> 0:49:17.756
<v Speaker 2>Back to this monoculture everything. I mean, we watched our

0:49:17.876 --> 0:49:22.596
<v Speaker 2>generation basically be like packaged and our you know, don't

0:49:22.636 --> 0:49:24.796
<v Speaker 2>give a shit about what we're wearing, gonna sound like

0:49:24.876 --> 0:49:27.996
<v Speaker 2>whatever we want to sound like, don't even put on

0:49:28.116 --> 0:49:34.396
<v Speaker 2>makeup when I'm going on stage, like that, genuine, just carefree, original,

0:49:35.636 --> 0:49:38.156
<v Speaker 2>you know, no one trying too hard, just being yourself.

0:49:38.876 --> 0:49:42.436
<v Speaker 2>You know, got put onto literally the runway and like Jkruad,

0:49:42.556 --> 0:49:45.156
<v Speaker 2>so like it went from like this cool organic thing

0:49:45.236 --> 0:49:47.076
<v Speaker 2>to like mainstream and now we're just kind of like

0:49:48.036 --> 0:49:51.716
<v Speaker 2>flying through like fake alternative mainstream forever, you know. So

0:49:51.996 --> 0:49:55.116
<v Speaker 2>for me, the it's an ode to the last analog decade,

0:49:55.116 --> 0:49:57.476
<v Speaker 2>but it's also it's a love letter, but it's also

0:49:57.796 --> 0:50:02.476
<v Speaker 2>a eulogy. It's gone, it's dead, you know, like that

0:50:02.716 --> 0:50:06.156
<v Speaker 2>was you know, before all this like meta meta of

0:50:06.316 --> 0:50:09.036
<v Speaker 2>self reflection and likes and seeing yourself in the mirror

0:50:09.316 --> 0:50:12.076
<v Speaker 2>of your phone. It was just so free and like

0:50:12.236 --> 0:50:15.196
<v Speaker 2>no one thought about, you know, that whole that silly

0:50:15.316 --> 0:50:17.396
<v Speaker 2>saying of dance, Like no one's watching. That's what the

0:50:17.476 --> 0:50:20.716
<v Speaker 2>nineties was, just do you. And we were so empowered

0:50:20.756 --> 0:50:23.876
<v Speaker 2>because we were also coming out of the eighties, which

0:50:23.956 --> 0:50:25.516
<v Speaker 2>was a stupid like I feel like we're in the

0:50:25.636 --> 0:50:30.076
<v Speaker 2>eighties all these like porn, Sephora fucking like whatever, this

0:50:30.276 --> 0:50:34.916
<v Speaker 2>plastic surgery, crazy mainstream like girl horrific, and I'm a

0:50:35.036 --> 0:50:37.116
<v Speaker 2>mother of a fourteen year old girl. Luckily she's a

0:50:37.196 --> 0:50:40.996
<v Speaker 2>weird alternative looking redhead. Anyways, So yeah, we were coming

0:50:41.036 --> 0:50:42.836
<v Speaker 2>out of the eighties being like, God, we're not going

0:50:42.916 --> 0:50:46.676
<v Speaker 2>to like wear workout clothes. Anyway, now we are back

0:50:46.956 --> 0:50:50.076
<v Speaker 2>workout with like blown out hair.

0:50:50.756 --> 0:50:53.556
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and would know. And at least in the eighties

0:50:53.596 --> 0:50:57.636
<v Speaker 1>there was a what turned out to be burgeoning alternative

0:50:57.676 --> 0:50:59.996
<v Speaker 1>scene that you had the pick Sees or whatever.

0:51:00.676 --> 0:51:03.516
<v Speaker 2>Not to mention Robert Smith and the Cure and Morrissey

0:51:03.596 --> 0:51:07.516
<v Speaker 2>and England. England just gave it. The eighties were like

0:51:07.676 --> 0:51:10.036
<v Speaker 2>the dream music for me. I talk a lot in

0:51:10.116 --> 0:51:13.036
<v Speaker 2>the book about my love of depeche Mode. Like writing

0:51:13.076 --> 0:51:15.156
<v Speaker 2>the book, I pretty much only listened to the Cure

0:51:15.156 --> 0:51:17.636
<v Speaker 2>of the Smiths and depeche Mode, like I mean, I

0:51:17.676 --> 0:51:20.516
<v Speaker 2>just went back to I went back to my childhood

0:51:20.556 --> 0:51:22.716
<v Speaker 2>of like the girl who fell in love with music

0:51:22.716 --> 0:51:26.316
<v Speaker 2>who then decided she wanted to find her generations sound,

0:51:26.516 --> 0:51:28.516
<v Speaker 2>you know. So I the eighties was where I fell

0:51:28.516 --> 0:51:31.196
<v Speaker 2>in love with music, and it was those guys you.

0:51:31.316 --> 0:51:33.876
<v Speaker 1>Missed not putting that on here. So this was this

0:51:33.956 --> 0:51:34.636
<v Speaker 1>book was written.

0:51:34.756 --> 0:51:36.836
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I'll figure out I'll make a playlist.

0:51:36.956 --> 0:51:39.156
<v Speaker 1>Actually this missing depeche Mode. I'll let you know what

0:51:39.276 --> 0:51:42.116
<v Speaker 1>you're sing for. I wish I had more time to

0:51:42.156 --> 0:51:43.356
<v Speaker 1>talk to you. I want to talk to you more

0:51:43.436 --> 0:51:45.236
<v Speaker 1>down the stairs, just if you have a little bit

0:51:45.276 --> 0:51:48.156
<v Speaker 1>of time, of course, but hopefully we'll see you sign

0:51:48.196 --> 0:51:48.716
<v Speaker 1>off or anything.

0:51:48.716 --> 0:51:51.676
<v Speaker 2>That's it. You cut it off for doing this. Yeah,

0:51:51.676 --> 0:51:54.236
<v Speaker 2>of course, thank you for having me. I was very happy.

0:51:54.356 --> 0:52:00.276
<v Speaker 1>I pad the book. It's really beautiful. An episode description,

0:52:00.396 --> 0:52:02.036
<v Speaker 1>you'll find a link to a playlist of some of

0:52:02.116 --> 0:52:05.676
<v Speaker 1>my favorite songs s featuring Melissa off Demahmer. Be sure

0:52:05.716 --> 0:52:08.516
<v Speaker 1>to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast

0:52:08.596 --> 0:52:10.996
<v Speaker 1>to see me all our video of interviews, and be

0:52:11.076 --> 0:52:13.716
<v Speaker 1>sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record pot.

0:52:14.076 --> 0:52:16.956
<v Speaker 1>You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken

0:52:16.996 --> 0:52:19.356
<v Speaker 1>Record is produced and edited by Lea Rose, with marketing

0:52:19.396 --> 0:52:22.196
<v Speaker 1>and help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

0:52:22.396 --> 0:52:26.196
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0:52:26.396 --> 0:52:28.836
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0:52:43.636 --> 0:52:46.116
<v Speaker 1>Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,