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Speaker 1: Pushkin melis Off. Deemauer came of age in Montreal's bohemian

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Speaker 1: art scene in the eighties and early nineties, at the

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Speaker 1: very moment that alternative rock was becoming the defining sound

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Speaker 1: of a generation. Through an unlikely chain of events, her

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Speaker 1: band Tinker landed an opening slot for The Smashing Pumpkins

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Speaker 1: and Billy Corgan. Sensing her natural talent on bass, Corgan

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Speaker 1: recommended her to Courtney Love. What followed was a turbulent

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Speaker 1: apprenticeship of Deemauer joined whole for to live through this

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Speaker 1: tour in nineteen ninety four, just weeks after the deaths

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Speaker 1: of Kirk Obain and Hols prior bassist Kristin Faff. Later,

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Speaker 1: she toured with The Smashing Pumpkins, released two solo albums,

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Speaker 1: and as Sense built a life as a musician, photographer,

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Speaker 1: and cultural curator, having co founded Basilica Hudson, a multidisciplinary

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Speaker 1: art center in New York's Hudson Valley. Even the Good

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Speaker 1: Girls Will Cry as Melissa's best selling book, part rock memor,

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Speaker 1: part travel diary, part psychedelic scrap book, a vivid dispatch

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Speaker 1: from what she calls the last analog decade, capturing that

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Speaker 1: era in all its messy, angsty glory. Off Demauer writes

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Speaker 1: with the tenderness of a true survivor, about the illness

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Speaker 1: and death of her father, her past relationship with Dave Grohl,

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Speaker 1: and her complicated, deeply human portrait of Courtney Love. Now

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Speaker 1: she's following it up with a companion photo book, My

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Speaker 1: Nineties Rock Photographs, drawn from the remarkable archives she shot

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Speaker 1: from one of rock's last great decades. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: I talked to Mliss off Demauer about both projects, about

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Speaker 1: how her parents encouraged an unconventional life in the arts,

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Speaker 1: how alternative music went mainstream, and how her relationship with

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Speaker 1: Courtney Love has evolved over the years. This is broken record,

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Speaker 1: real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Melissa off Demauer.

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Speaker 2: JI, in whole was happened because of death. I replaced

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Speaker 2: a deceased woman who died two months after Kurt committed suicide.

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Speaker 2: So the whole runway to my joining that band was death.

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Speaker 1: With Cony Love, who I don't know, but just from

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Speaker 1: everything you know I know of her, you just presume.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't think she's getting out of the decade.

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Speaker 2: Of course, impossible She's an absolute miracle. She should have

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Speaker 2: been dead seventeen hundred times. She is not. She's alive.

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Speaker 2: And we didn't speak after I left the band for

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Speaker 2: well over a decade, and we are now the closest

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Speaker 2: we have ever been.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: She's in the best mental health and clarity than she

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Speaker 2: ever has been. She has an album in the can

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Speaker 2: that I sang backups all over. She has a memoir

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Speaker 2: coming out at the end of the year, in a

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Speaker 2: documentary film that's a real reframing in her own words,

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Speaker 2: of her survival. Basically, she's but yes.

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Speaker 1: She's going there and all that. Like in the dock,

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Speaker 1: is it like it goes pretty heavy?

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Speaker 2: I mean it did. This is very Courtney. But it

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Speaker 2: did premiere at sun Dance in January. She didn't show up,

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Speaker 2: and now she's reshooting it. When it came out to rave.

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Speaker 1: Reviews, she's just put the original film as like an

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Speaker 1: extra or something. I loved it.

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Speaker 2: Redoing it, but I mean it's probably going to be better.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's sure. She's going to have

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Speaker 2: her moment like this is my year, my little bass

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Speaker 2: player a year. In twenty twenty six, she and Billy

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Speaker 2: who are my grunge parents that I refer to because

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Speaker 2: Billy from the Smashing Pumpkins was my entree and my

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Speaker 2: introduction to Hole and he was my musical mentor. So

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Speaker 2: there are these ominous parent figures. And when I left

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Speaker 2: the nineties running after my two stints in yeah, two

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Speaker 2: huge bands, but also notably two of the most I

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Speaker 2: never saw it this way until I left in decades later, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you were in two huge rock bands, but you were

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Speaker 2: also in the bands with the most difficult front people,

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Speaker 2: like notably difficult front people.

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Speaker 1: Different reasons but different, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Very different people. Courtney and Billy are radically different, but

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Speaker 2: they were for better. For course, my my second parents

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Speaker 2: who ushered me into my adulthood. And when I left

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Speaker 2: both their bands, I didn't speak to either of them

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Speaker 2: for a decade, and we're closer than we've ever been.

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Speaker 2: So the good news is that there's happy endings in

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Speaker 2: gen X like alternative rock purgatory Land.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to hear that.

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Speaker 2: You know, everyone's alive and talking and apologize it's still

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Speaker 2: time to go.

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Speaker 1: You know it's bad, I hope not. Yeah, it's true. Actually,

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Speaker 1: as a fan of I'm a Billy cording fan, and

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Speaker 1: he sometimes drives me nuts as a fail someone. Why

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Speaker 1: would you say that? What compels you? I can't remember exactly,

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Speaker 1: but everyone you know, it's like every third interview I'll

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Speaker 1: read it. Isn't I a wild card?

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Speaker 2: He is very He's truly himself. And when I met

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Speaker 2: I was nineteen. When I met him in nineteen ninety one,

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Speaker 2: he was nobody. His band had a twelve inch out

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Speaker 2: and we became quick friends, pen pals, and I was

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Speaker 2: entirely captured by the sound of the music. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: the man, but when I walked into the band the

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Speaker 2: first show, they had a Montreal for a dollar in

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Speaker 2: front of twenty people, I heard the sounds of my

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Speaker 2: ancient soul in this band. I didn't know who they were.

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Speaker 2: I just it captured me. It changed my life. I

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Speaker 2: committed to making music and picking up the bass after that.

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Speaker 2: But I became friends with him, and we also discovered

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Speaker 2: shortly after that we're both born as Saint Patrick's Day

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Speaker 2: and in the world of astrology, but also just saints

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Speaker 2: are holy and cool. But pisces were very overly sensitive creatures.

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Speaker 2: He was very unique as a rock dude at that

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Speaker 2: time because I mean, obviously Kurt had his own true

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Speaker 2: tortured poet martyr tragedy, and Billy had his own weird,

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Speaker 2: esoteric vibes that was very different than like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously Sound Garden and Pearl everyone had their own thing,

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Speaker 2: but Billy's twist was sort of like I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say this with all the love, but sort of like

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Speaker 2: new age pompous intellectual philosopher, which is what made him

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Speaker 2: interesting to people like me. I was like, wow, cool,

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Speaker 2: he's like so poetic and strange, but he also just

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Speaker 2: throws these curveballs because it's not Yeah, it's a little much.

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Speaker 1: I love a line though, between like that and like

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Speaker 1: annoying for any I mean even for Dylan or Joni Mitchell.

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Speaker 1: It's all the same. It's like the lawn between being

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Speaker 1: that kind of a purpose. Not necessarily I'm not necessarily

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Speaker 1: to compare him to Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell, but

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Speaker 1: in a way it's, yeah, our generation he's fairly committed to.

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Speaker 2: Which I love. I love that he's so using his

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Speaker 2: platforms are getting bigger and bigger, like from wrestling to

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Speaker 2: podcasts to the Pumpkins being the biggest they've ever been. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean hooray, because they you know, they really they

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Speaker 2: did dip. I mean I was on when I toured

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Speaker 2: with them. It was the farewell tour. We were the

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Speaker 2: band was dismantling, and he made a weird concept then,

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Speaker 2: which was also kind of like an example of how

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Speaker 2: weird Billy was as we went on a world tour

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Speaker 2: to say goodbye to the world the band was ending,

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Speaker 2: and who really does do a farewell tour at the

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Speaker 2: peak prime of there? Like it'd only been a band

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Speaker 2: for a decade. It's not like it was like you

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Speaker 2: two saying goodbye after fifty years. So he's a funny

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Speaker 2: human that way. And I remember the whole time on

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Speaker 2: that tour with him thinking like, wait, what's Billy's planned

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Speaker 2: after this? Like why why is it? You know, I

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Speaker 2: knew I was just a visiting, temporary member, but but

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Speaker 2: it was the honor of a lifetime to play in

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Speaker 2: my favorite band who inspired me to pick up the

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Speaker 2: bass to begin with.

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Speaker 1: And both times, I guess, and also in both instances,

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Speaker 1: you're also replacing a bit of an iconic.

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Speaker 2: Well iconic and tragic and tragic. So the problem Kristin Faff,

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Speaker 2: who I replaced in Hole. She played on live this

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Speaker 2: but hadn't even really been in the band for very long.

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Speaker 2: She made an amazing record with them and played in

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Speaker 2: that first video, Miss World, and then died before they

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Speaker 2: even supported the record. So I came in at the

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Speaker 2: moment where the band is ready to support the album,

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Speaker 2: and then Darcy from the Pumpkins, who longstanding member that

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Speaker 2: Pumpkins were always that formation, And this part of the

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Speaker 2: book I think is new for a lot of But

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of parts of my memoir that obviously

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Speaker 2: I've never told anybody.

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Speaker 1: But.

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Speaker 2: Having just done an epic three month memoir book tour

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Speaker 2: this spring and talking to and doing what I thought

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Speaker 2: was going to be ten bookshops to turn into forty

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Speaker 2: seven events and multiple a day, and hundreds of people

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Speaker 2: interfacing a day with hearing their response and questions of

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Speaker 2: you know, things that they had never heard, like the

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Speaker 2: deep dive that people want of the behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: But one of the kind of nexus moments in my

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Speaker 2: book is that strange moment that I knew at the time,

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Speaker 2: but writing about it twenty five years later, when I

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Speaker 2: leave Hole and join the Smashing Pumpkins, all within a month.

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Speaker 2: It was a very back to back, strange move, but

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Speaker 2: also very in sort of mythological rock history moment, just

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Speaker 2: very controversial for the good girl to just like leap

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Speaker 2: out and go into the other and replace Darcy who

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Speaker 2: had mysteriously kind of disappeared. And it was a testament

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Speaker 2: to me and Billy's esoteric piss's connection is I had

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Speaker 2: just quietly internally decided I was done with Hole at

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Speaker 2: the end of this tour of them, because well it

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Speaker 2: wasn't even the end of the tour, but Courtney was

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Speaker 2: really focusing on movies Hollywood, and I just wrote a

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Speaker 2: letter in my diary flying home from the last show

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Speaker 2: I ever played with them in Vancouver in nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 2: and it just said that's it. I'm done. I don't

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Speaker 2: feel like waiting around anymore for a band leader to

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Speaker 2: decide if for making music or waiting to tour or

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Speaker 2: not tour. And then I, within a week of me

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Speaker 2: making that internal decision and preparing the terrifying resignation letter

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Speaker 2: to Courtney, Billy calls my rotary phone and says, Darcy's

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Speaker 2: disappeared and I need you to join my band. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: how do you know that I am leaving? This band.

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Speaker 2: Why would you ask me that? But I am and

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Speaker 2: it worked out beautifully. But it was totally bizarre. But

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Speaker 2: that I'd explained in the book detailed is I think

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Speaker 2: is even news to me of remembering how tightly woven

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Speaker 2: that moment was.

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Speaker 1: Because in your mind if they feel like very different, yeah,

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Speaker 1: blocks of time.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, And I forgot how you know, like in romance,

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Speaker 2: how overlapped. And it's a testament to Courtney our mutual

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Speaker 2: respect and now even more so, at this stage of

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Speaker 2: our lives, were able to reflect on what made us

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Speaker 2: a good match. Back then, I try to explain from

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Speaker 2: the bass player good girl to the right of the

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Speaker 2: the horror, I'm the virgin. So I tried to explain

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Speaker 2: this dynamic of the two women in this band. But

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Speaker 2: it's not till decades later now that she and I

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Speaker 2: can reflect on how that happened and how beautifully compatible

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Speaker 2: we were so polar opposite and when I left what

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Speaker 2: she was not happy about, and then when I announced

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Speaker 2: I was joined the Pumpkins, which she was not happy about,

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Speaker 2: she very eloquently you know it shows her fundamental love

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Speaker 2: and trust of me. Is in respect for me. She

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Speaker 2: never said one bad word other than Melissa has gone

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Speaker 2: off to be Billy Corgan's purse. And that was her nice,

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Speaker 2: low hitting insult to all right, see you later. But

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Speaker 2: I was very impressed at the time that this is

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Speaker 2: like taking the high road. I'm just a purse, no

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Speaker 2: big deal.

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Speaker 1: Did you think it was gonna be much worse?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: But no.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's why I actually people ask me in

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Speaker 2: this memoir, what I you know, The hardest parts, of

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Speaker 2: course to were to write about drug addiction of others

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Speaker 2: and my father's death. But what were the things that

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Speaker 2: I'd learned about in the book? Was revisiting the letters

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Speaker 2: of Courtney that she wrote to me that I print

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Speaker 2: in the book for the first time ever. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I hadn't even to miracle they survived because they were

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Speaker 2: faxes and on that fading fact paper. And when I

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Speaker 2: was putting my archives together, I found it right in

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Speaker 2: the nick of time before it totally evaporated. By I

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Speaker 2: re print in full two big letters that Courtney wrote

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Speaker 2: to me at the peak of our power, both in

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Speaker 2: the celebrity skin moment but also our power as women

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Speaker 2: together on covers of magazines and all the fashion moments,

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Speaker 2: and at the Versace shows, and it was a very elevated,

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Speaker 2: high intensity time of our career, and it was the

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Speaker 2: end of the nineties and women seemed to be on top,

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Speaker 2: which is another story. But she writes me two letters

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Speaker 2: that I think are too the most powerful things in

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Speaker 2: the book. And what I like is that I get

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Speaker 2: to give Courtney the floor. She gets to show the

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Speaker 2: people who read the book just how brilliant, eloquent, generous

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Speaker 2: and noble she is. And the first one is the

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Speaker 2: beauty manifesto, where she's given me some lessons and beauty

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Speaker 2: around the Malibu video and the edits, and she thinks

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Speaker 2: I should be goofyer or i'llso be an ice princess

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Speaker 2: and I'm a queen, not a princess. That a so cool,

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Speaker 2: great letter. And then the second one is her response

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Speaker 2: to my resignation, and it is generous and incredible. And

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Speaker 2: I took it with a grain of salt at the

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Speaker 2: time because I just need it out, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: read it for twenty years, and when I read it

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Speaker 2: putting this book together, I realized, and she is, for

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Speaker 2: anyone who's been in the room with her, always the

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Speaker 2: smartest person in the room. Even now after all the

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Speaker 2: trauma and an addiction and damage, brilliant, brilliant mind, and

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Speaker 2: the handwritten letter that she sends me in response to

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Speaker 2: this out of nowhere ish decision for me to leave.

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Speaker 2: I learned about myself twenty five years later. I did

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Speaker 2: not at the time realize how bang on she was

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Speaker 2: about parts of me that I had not yet grown into.

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Speaker 2: I was only twenty six, and this very wise woman

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Speaker 2: really schooled me, and I wasn't ready for the lesson.

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Speaker 2: And I now as a as a middle aged wise woman,

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Speaker 2: I understand a lot of what she was saying that

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Speaker 2: I missed at the time.

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Speaker 1: Which is cool. How do you think she knew that

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Speaker 1: about it? I knew that about that.

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Speaker 2: I'm so smart because she I think her and Billy,

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Speaker 2: both since I put this memoir out, had been shockingly supportive,

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Speaker 2: like proud mom and dad? Who want to do you.

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Speaker 1: Really think it's shocking?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: Maybe, well, we.

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Speaker 2: Didn't like both of them, No, I guess it's not

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Speaker 2: now that we've we've talked about it, But I had

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Speaker 2: been out of their lives for a long time, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Well, they're also quite potentially competitive people.

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Speaker 2: So only reason I say shocking is it proves that

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Speaker 2: it's all love like we they love me, I love them.

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Speaker 2: They want me to succeed.

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Speaker 1: You know, Billy, you're You're like the child of a divorce,

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Speaker 1: but it's like the parents can come together for the graduation.

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Speaker 2: And essentially, since my book came out, both Billy and

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Speaker 2: Courtney in different ways, have said to me, we knew

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Speaker 2: that you were this great and we both saw it

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Speaker 2: anew from the moment we met you. And now the world,

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Speaker 2: like Billy even said at one point out a Q

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Speaker 2: and A, he ended up filling in last minute of

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Speaker 2: My la Q and A. When Jennifer Finch from L

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Speaker 2: seven called in sick, he came and said, in front

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Speaker 2: of a live audience, now the world gets to know

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Speaker 2: how amazing you are. I've always known it from the

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Speaker 2: moment I met you at nineteen. I hadn't seen such

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Speaker 2: self assurance in a young person. And he again, what

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Speaker 2: this putting out a memoir is insane, just for everyone

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Speaker 2: out there. If you want to heal your life, I

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Speaker 2: write a memoir. It's so painful. But then once it's

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Speaker 2: out and you've purged it and shared it, and then

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Speaker 2: you start getting the feedback. Some as hard I've had

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Speaker 2: trouble with other people, but this is an example of

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Speaker 2: the people that are like showering me and we're bonding

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Speaker 2: through my purging and self reflection and empowering my story.

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Speaker 2: But Billy said something that really a sense of what

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Speaker 2: happens in your middle age when you start looking back,

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Speaker 2: and especially when you were a difficult and sometimes hated person.

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Speaker 2: Both of them were, you know, very misunderstood yet celebrated

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Speaker 2: of course, and I think they both live with a

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Speaker 2: lot of pain around and both had very hard childhoods.

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Speaker 2: They were not and loved and that's what in this

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Speaker 2: Q and A. I was so it really. I think

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Speaker 2: I probably teared up if I didn't entirely cry. But

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Speaker 2: he said, you know what made you different? You know,

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Speaker 2: Courtney and I were survivors. We had tough childhoods, and

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Speaker 2: we were as strong as shit because we came from hard.

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Speaker 2: You were strong without that kind of pain.

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Speaker 1: And it was.

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Speaker 2: Deeply I felt, you know, whatever, that the new world

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Speaker 2: of therapy so seen. You know, I just had not

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Speaker 2: even to myself understood. But you know, my father had pain,

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Speaker 2: and as I've been so I held an embolded strength

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Speaker 2: of a man who for whatever complicated reasons.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: My father had a lot of pain.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from a less aftemar after

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Speaker 1: the break. And your mom was complicated too, Yes, it

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Speaker 1: came an equally interesting way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my father was in line with like true torture pain,

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Speaker 2: like alcoholic addicts. So that's why the wisdom of a

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Speaker 2: daughter of an alcoholic is a kind of chiseled wisdom

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Speaker 2: that comes either just enjoys you and you become an addict,

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Speaker 2: or you kind of work with it and try to

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Speaker 2: you know, you go through complicated things where you then

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Speaker 2: try to save people and you want to love everyone

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Speaker 2: for all of their impossible traits, and you compromise yourself

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Speaker 2: and your own happiness.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, and you must feel I mean, it's been

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Speaker 1: out now and it's been really well received in a lot,

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Speaker 1: but it's still you must feel like an open, exposed

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Speaker 1: nerve still. And I am a big one, big exposed.

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Speaker 2: A metaphoric mess. I am like metamorphosizing and like healing

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Speaker 2: actively and evolving. And then I have this companion book

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Speaker 2: that comes out six months later, so probably by the

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Speaker 2: time this is in September, the Visual Companion, which is

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Speaker 2: to my so my Nineties Rock Memoir came out at March,

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Speaker 2: and my nineties Rock Photographs come out in September, and

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Speaker 2: it is pulling from my archive of fifteen thousand negatives

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Speaker 2: shot between nineteen ninety one and two thousand and one,

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Speaker 2: decade that defined me in my generation, and photographed by

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Speaker 2: a woman in the band, and it's, I think, the

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Speaker 2: thing I'm most artistically proud of, because that's all I

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Speaker 2: actually ever wanted to be. I was in art school

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Speaker 2: as a photographer. I assumed I'd make photography my life.

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Speaker 2: But then I was hijacked by Courtney and the giant

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Speaker 2: circus of nineties rock music, and then I've been trying

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Speaker 2: to get myself back to this more conceptual artist. But

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Speaker 2: the joy of writing the memoir was I got to

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Speaker 2: really and also take the time to scan all my negatives,

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Speaker 2: and in that photographic journey that is coming out in September,

356
00:19:48,356 --> 00:19:52,636
Speaker 2: is even more wide open, like my boobs, my nose bleeds,

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Speaker 2: my messy bedrooms, like the rough and tumble existence backstage,

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Speaker 2: and the messiness of you know, the glorious things too,

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Speaker 2: the giant crowds. And I don't mean that because we're

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Speaker 2: so lucky to make giant crowds. But I have a

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Speaker 2: whole room in the museum exhibit that's coming in concerts

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Speaker 2: with this photo book. And the last room is an

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Speaker 2: ode to the fans and to the journey. Is the

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Speaker 2: bass player in my interior spiritual world basically that merged

365
00:20:22,876 --> 00:20:27,196
Speaker 2: with these oceans of people. And there's actually a video

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Speaker 2: installation in the middle of that room called the Bass

367
00:20:29,956 --> 00:20:33,796
Speaker 2: Womb Room, which is a throbbing heartbeat, a soundtrack I

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00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:37,916
Speaker 2: am making, and it's the inner soundtrack and prism like

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Speaker 2: light in video installation, surrounded by these photos of fans,

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Speaker 2: giant like crowds of thousands, and it's like a zigzag

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00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:52,796
Speaker 2: between like the tiny intimate inner self that brings a

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Speaker 2: sound through their instrument to commune with these oceans of

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00:20:57,236 --> 00:21:03,316
Speaker 2: fans for years, and that is very powerful, I'm assuming,

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Speaker 2: you know, But music, I believe is the highest form

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Speaker 2: of creative spiritual communing with a with humans. You know.

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Speaker 2: I love painting, I love theater, I love film, of

377
00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:16,516
Speaker 2: course I love photography. But the actual exchange and the

378
00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:19,596
Speaker 2: way that music moves through people's lives and it's not

379
00:21:20,156 --> 00:21:22,156
Speaker 2: just the power of the stage, but of course that

380
00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:26,756
Speaker 2: rumbling of the bass through the ocean of the moving people,

381
00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:30,316
Speaker 2: with the people who are playing it that's heavy, is incredible,

382
00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:33,356
Speaker 2: but it's also when they go home and listen to

383
00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:36,676
Speaker 2: it alone in their room. It's like this inside outside

384
00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:41,236
Speaker 2: private public. And a lot of my work in the

385
00:21:41,356 --> 00:21:45,396
Speaker 2: photos is really reflecting the inside of my life, the

386
00:21:45,596 --> 00:21:49,276
Speaker 2: young girl I'm trying to protect from the giant abyss,

387
00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:53,956
Speaker 2: but then also the power of this remarkable relationship with

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Speaker 2: human kind. It's very exciting to be working in this

389
00:21:58,956 --> 00:22:02,476
Speaker 2: medium to be able to reflect on what I and

390
00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:05,436
Speaker 2: every other person whoever was in a rock band is

391
00:22:05,556 --> 00:22:08,796
Speaker 2: doing out there every night, and what those people in

392
00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:12,356
Speaker 2: the crowd outs are doing. And uh, when I talk

393
00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:15,636
Speaker 2: with artists as a you know, an advocate for music

394
00:22:15,756 --> 00:22:18,996
Speaker 2: being the the superpower, as I just remind them, like,

395
00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:22,156
Speaker 2: you can't hold it. It is not a thing.

396
00:22:22,516 --> 00:22:23,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is abstract.

397
00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:28,036
Speaker 2: It's just sound, which is like essence, like environment. It's

398
00:22:28,076 --> 00:22:29,116
Speaker 2: so it's like air.

399
00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:31,636
Speaker 1: It's so powerful, moving airs.

400
00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:35,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is literally the bass yeh is literally the base.

401
00:22:35,676 --> 00:22:35,796
Speaker 1: You know?

402
00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:38,356
Speaker 2: Did I mention I'm a bass player For these people listening,

403
00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:42,276
Speaker 2: I am a highly defined I am a redhead Canadian

404
00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:45,676
Speaker 2: bass player. That is my top line description, it's a.

405
00:22:45,716 --> 00:22:48,316
Speaker 1: Great way to two I am says it all. It

406
00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:53,476
Speaker 1: says it all and your base plane is like listening.

407
00:22:53,556 --> 00:22:58,636
Speaker 1: I hadn't listened to whole in a long time. Listening

408
00:22:58,676 --> 00:23:02,436
Speaker 1: to celebrity skin it's like, what the bass really stands out?

409
00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:04,556
Speaker 2: And it's cool? Is it now that people are so

410
00:23:05,116 --> 00:23:07,836
Speaker 2: nerdy crazy deep diving in the nineties I have from

411
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:10,036
Speaker 2: my memory, I did a bunch of of course press,

412
00:23:10,116 --> 00:23:12,756
Speaker 2: but talking to the bass magazines, of talking to these

413
00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:14,756
Speaker 2: super nerdy bass people who are like, well, there's a

414
00:23:14,836 --> 00:23:18,956
Speaker 2: Melissa sound like does alyssa feel that people know about

415
00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:20,796
Speaker 2: that when you're in the studio if like they're super

416
00:23:20,876 --> 00:23:24,516
Speaker 2: nerdy rock enthusiast engineer. This was all news to me

417
00:23:24,676 --> 00:23:26,836
Speaker 2: when I was doing these interviews, like, oh, really there's

418
00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:31,516
Speaker 2: a thing. And then these nerdy bass player magazine people

419
00:23:31,556 --> 00:23:33,916
Speaker 2: were like, yes, there's like a whole there's a style

420
00:23:34,116 --> 00:23:36,756
Speaker 2: that you have and a feel that you have. And

421
00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:40,236
Speaker 2: then you did you watch the Billy Corgan podcast with me?

422
00:23:40,436 --> 00:23:43,036
Speaker 2: I did not, so because you're a Billy fan. That's

423
00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:45,036
Speaker 2: it's I mean, I try.

424
00:23:44,956 --> 00:23:47,516
Speaker 1: Not to take into any podcasters because I like that.

425
00:23:47,596 --> 00:23:50,556
Speaker 2: I'm sorry if I don't listen to podcasts either. I

426
00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:52,676
Speaker 2: didn't listen back to it, but I was in the

427
00:23:52,756 --> 00:23:56,196
Speaker 2: studio with Billy and we had a conversation about my book.

428
00:23:56,356 --> 00:23:59,316
Speaker 2: He invited me on the podcast and for the first

429
00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:01,196
Speaker 2: time ever, again this is sort of the joy of

430
00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:04,676
Speaker 2: twenty five years later and sitting with your ex band member,

431
00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:09,316
Speaker 2: he broke down my bass playing to me, which never

432
00:24:09,436 --> 00:24:11,636
Speaker 2: happened before. And again it had something to do with

433
00:24:11,796 --> 00:24:13,916
Speaker 2: time pass because he's also played with a lot of

434
00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:18,756
Speaker 2: bass players since, and because last summer he was playing

435
00:24:18,836 --> 00:24:21,836
Speaker 2: like a small secret ish show in Montreal of like

436
00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:25,556
Speaker 2: rarity songs, not with the Pumpkins, and I joined for

437
00:24:25,676 --> 00:24:28,836
Speaker 2: one song for Everlasting Days, which is on that last

438
00:24:28,916 --> 00:24:30,716
Speaker 2: record that I toured with them, and I was in

439
00:24:30,796 --> 00:24:34,196
Speaker 2: that video and it was like riding a bike. I

440
00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:36,476
Speaker 2: don't play bass much at the moment, and it was

441
00:24:36,996 --> 00:24:39,396
Speaker 2: powerful for me to just get on stage with Billy

442
00:24:39,516 --> 00:24:43,836
Speaker 2: play that song and feel so instantly like cellular memory

443
00:24:43,956 --> 00:24:48,036
Speaker 2: alive and love it. And he said at soundcheck that day,

444
00:24:48,076 --> 00:24:52,756
Speaker 2: when I started playing, he said, oh, there's that feeling,

445
00:24:52,876 --> 00:24:56,076
Speaker 2: there's that pocket again. It's been a while. And then

446
00:24:56,316 --> 00:24:59,476
Speaker 2: that's why when he did the podcast he broke it down.

447
00:24:59,956 --> 00:25:01,716
Speaker 2: He's like, well, you have a very particular feeling. It

448
00:25:01,796 --> 00:25:03,516
Speaker 2: was the first time. And he's such a muso, like

449
00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:06,676
Speaker 2: if there was ever someone who could describe why technically

450
00:25:06,836 --> 00:25:10,516
Speaker 2: or what I'm doing, it love describing things. Yes, so

451
00:25:10,756 --> 00:25:12,436
Speaker 2: he uh, he broke it down. So for all the

452
00:25:12,476 --> 00:25:15,996
Speaker 2: bass players listening or anyone who thinks about pockets, he

453
00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:19,796
Speaker 2: describes the unique and I guess not a lot of

454
00:25:19,836 --> 00:25:22,316
Speaker 2: bass players have this. Most bass players play on the

455
00:25:22,436 --> 00:25:25,356
Speaker 2: beat of the kickdrum, so it's like you're playing with

456
00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:28,716
Speaker 2: the kick drum. Some people in other kinds of music

457
00:25:28,956 --> 00:25:32,476
Speaker 2: are behind and laid back, and that's like a space between,

458
00:25:33,116 --> 00:25:35,916
Speaker 2: and that's possibly in jazz. I'm sorry for the super

459
00:25:36,036 --> 00:25:38,316
Speaker 2: musos out there. I don't actually know, but some people

460
00:25:38,956 --> 00:25:42,396
Speaker 2: are behind the bucket and I, which I guess is

461
00:25:42,556 --> 00:25:46,596
Speaker 2: less common, but maybe for certain rock style, am ahead

462
00:25:46,716 --> 00:25:50,996
Speaker 2: of the kick and I push push, push, push push,

463
00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:53,076
Speaker 2: and I had I mean, I guess I've never I

464
00:25:53,236 --> 00:25:55,076
Speaker 2: just play the way I've always played. I mean when

465
00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:57,916
Speaker 2: I joined Hole, I had owned my bass for a

466
00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:01,316
Speaker 2: year and I had only played six concerts ever, and

467
00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:04,156
Speaker 2: my first show in front of sixty five thousand people

468
00:26:04,196 --> 00:26:07,236
Speaker 2: at the Redding festival. I didn't make a mistake and

469
00:26:07,316 --> 00:26:09,956
Speaker 2: I just played these songs. I don't even know how wow.

470
00:26:10,356 --> 00:26:11,996
Speaker 2: And I used to say, and I still kind of

471
00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:13,676
Speaker 2: do well. Base playing is easy. That's why I could

472
00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:14,956
Speaker 2: do it. And some people are like, well, it's easy

473
00:26:15,036 --> 00:26:15,276
Speaker 2: for you.

474
00:26:16,436 --> 00:26:18,476
Speaker 1: Anyway, I find other things that are easy too. I

475
00:26:18,516 --> 00:26:20,916
Speaker 1: we do find I guess one as an artist.

476
00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:23,436
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you it was easy for me to

477
00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:28,196
Speaker 2: write my book. I was ahead, done, ahead of time. Well, actually,

478
00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:31,036
Speaker 2: when I quit music at forty to become a mother,

479
00:26:31,236 --> 00:26:34,116
Speaker 2: I founded an art center down the street Basilica Hudson,

480
00:26:34,156 --> 00:26:37,196
Speaker 2: down the street from where we are, and I mom

481
00:26:37,236 --> 00:26:40,956
Speaker 2: and pop alternative art center reclaimed eighteen eighties factory on

482
00:26:40,956 --> 00:26:45,356
Speaker 2: the Hudson River, and I managed, promoted, and booked all

483
00:26:45,396 --> 00:26:47,796
Speaker 2: our music festivals for decades. So when I wanted to

484
00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:50,276
Speaker 2: raise my daughter in an environment that was creative and exciting,

485
00:26:50,756 --> 00:26:53,316
Speaker 2: I moved a small town America after growing up at

486
00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 2: the best city in the world, Montreal. So I wanted

487
00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:59,956
Speaker 2: to bring the vibrant counterculture, alternative culture to the city

488
00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:02,676
Speaker 2: I was raising my daughter. So we founded this art center,

489
00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:05,716
Speaker 2: Basilica Hudson, and I wrote every press release. I mean,

490
00:27:05,756 --> 00:27:07,676
Speaker 2: I was promoting the whole thing in it. But I

491
00:27:07,756 --> 00:27:11,916
Speaker 2: also someone recently because I've been trying to do social

492
00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:14,196
Speaker 2: media this year, because I was not on social media.

493
00:27:14,556 --> 00:27:16,956
Speaker 2: I kind of quit in twenty ten. I had a blog,

494
00:27:17,356 --> 00:27:20,076
Speaker 2: like from two thousand to twenty ten, so my web

495
00:27:20,156 --> 00:27:23,356
Speaker 2: people have been noting like, hey, you were writing, like

496
00:27:23,436 --> 00:27:26,076
Speaker 2: that's why we're kicking off my substuct you know next month.

497
00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:31,556
Speaker 2: Is that I always was blogging when I and when

498
00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:35,436
Speaker 2: the blogs came. When the internet arrived, I started right

499
00:27:35,516 --> 00:27:39,876
Speaker 2: away these diary entries which are kind of full like beginning,

500
00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:40,716
Speaker 2: middle end.

501
00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:42,916
Speaker 1: But do you mean them to be or do they

502
00:27:42,996 --> 00:27:43,356
Speaker 1: just come out?

503
00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:45,156
Speaker 2: It just come that way. It's like I want to

504
00:27:45,276 --> 00:27:48,516
Speaker 2: tell this thing. But I mean, having spoken about my

505
00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:51,876
Speaker 2: father and the ease in which I wrote this book,

506
00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:55,876
Speaker 2: I am completely convinced that he wrote it with me.

507
00:27:56,236 --> 00:27:58,716
Speaker 2: There so not only just you know, on my shoulder,

508
00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:02,556
Speaker 2: definitely writing it with me. But I grew up reading

509
00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:04,916
Speaker 2: about my life in the city, the life of my

510
00:28:05,036 --> 00:28:08,836
Speaker 2: city in his articles, and he has a very particular

511
00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:12,596
Speaker 2: call the beginning middle end way of storytelling. And I

512
00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:17,956
Speaker 2: think having had my childhood narrated by somebody has shaped

513
00:28:17,996 --> 00:28:21,036
Speaker 2: the way I walk through the world, narrating my own

514
00:28:21,316 --> 00:28:23,996
Speaker 2: day and my own month and my own decade. And

515
00:28:24,676 --> 00:28:27,036
Speaker 2: I think that's why it came so easily. But that

516
00:28:27,196 --> 00:28:30,596
Speaker 2: being said, it wouldn't necessarily have been easy or good.

517
00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:33,516
Speaker 2: And apparently it's good in terms.

518
00:28:33,316 --> 00:28:35,876
Speaker 1: Of off this writing this did I mean it probably

519
00:28:35,876 --> 00:28:38,076
Speaker 1: would have found its way to me anyways. I love music,

520
00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:41,076
Speaker 1: I love to read, and so whatever. But it's very good.

521
00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:42,956
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really thank you.

522
00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:45,556
Speaker 2: I am super proud of too things.

523
00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:46,956
Speaker 1: But it's so long.

524
00:28:47,036 --> 00:28:49,156
Speaker 2: It's one hundred pages longer than they asked me to

525
00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:52,196
Speaker 2: And when I submitted my book, I had already cut

526
00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:56,796
Speaker 2: a hundred pages out of this. So I now realize

527
00:28:56,836 --> 00:28:58,716
Speaker 2: the sub stack will probably have a lot of the

528
00:28:58,836 --> 00:29:02,116
Speaker 2: outtakes because I had to cut a ton of the

529
00:29:02,196 --> 00:29:07,596
Speaker 2: Jeff Buckley story that like lots of interesting like sidebars

530
00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:09,356
Speaker 2: that I wish I didn't have to cut. It was

531
00:29:09,436 --> 00:29:12,716
Speaker 2: literally six hundred pages, so I cut one hundred plus

532
00:29:12,796 --> 00:29:15,716
Speaker 2: pages out, and when I submitted it to the publisher,

533
00:29:17,036 --> 00:29:19,276
Speaker 2: I wrote a cover letter that said, I know this

534
00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:23,076
Speaker 2: is longer than you asked for, but I couldn't help

535
00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:27,556
Speaker 2: but notice that Thurston More in Flees memoirs were about

536
00:29:27,636 --> 00:29:31,436
Speaker 2: this long, and I think there's less women in my

537
00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:35,196
Speaker 2: department telling those stories, so I think we should probably

538
00:29:35,356 --> 00:29:39,356
Speaker 2: keep it as long as it is. And I got

539
00:29:39,476 --> 00:29:43,236
Speaker 2: greenlit the exact book that I handed in, nothing edited.

540
00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:45,716
Speaker 2: I was ready to cut. It's like we could cut,

541
00:29:45,796 --> 00:29:48,756
Speaker 2: like the details about my Welsh choir teacher. You know,

542
00:29:48,876 --> 00:29:50,836
Speaker 2: if you're really looking to trim it down, you're like, no,

543
00:29:50,996 --> 00:29:54,316
Speaker 2: we're keeping the Welsh choir teacher. Okay, great, but to

544
00:29:54,796 --> 00:29:58,716
Speaker 2: the point of it being well written. Both my parents

545
00:29:58,796 --> 00:30:00,836
Speaker 2: were the most My mother is still alive and a

546
00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:04,036
Speaker 2: master of the word. She's a literary translator. She lives

547
00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:06,596
Speaker 2: in the world of manuscripts and has for fifty years.

548
00:30:06,676 --> 00:30:10,956
Speaker 2: So like I watch her. Her days ruled by now

549
00:30:11,036 --> 00:30:12,996
Speaker 2: a computer. But when I was growing up, a typewriter

550
00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:14,916
Speaker 2: and hundreds and hundreds of pages.

551
00:30:14,996 --> 00:30:15,716
Speaker 1: It's just so.

552
00:30:15,916 --> 00:30:18,036
Speaker 2: And my father wrote his articles at the bar and

553
00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:20,876
Speaker 2: a typewriter. So the written word was the power of

554
00:30:20,956 --> 00:30:24,956
Speaker 2: my parents, but it translated into their talking the way

555
00:30:25,116 --> 00:30:27,956
Speaker 2: they communicate. My mother is one of the most eloquent

556
00:30:28,676 --> 00:30:32,476
Speaker 2: speakers of anything, culture, anything emotion. So I was raised

557
00:30:32,516 --> 00:30:36,756
Speaker 2: by good speaking people were amazing writers, and so that

558
00:30:36,956 --> 00:30:40,796
Speaker 2: ended up fueling obviously some kind of like I didn't

559
00:30:40,836 --> 00:30:42,956
Speaker 2: know that I had it, but I managed a channel,

560
00:30:42,996 --> 00:30:45,956
Speaker 2: I suppose. But when I had, right when I had

561
00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:48,316
Speaker 2: handed in the book, they were psyched. We were waiting

562
00:30:48,436 --> 00:30:51,516
Speaker 2: for the first industry reviews to come to sort of

563
00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:54,356
Speaker 2: get the bell weather of what those book buyer kind

564
00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:57,276
Speaker 2: of librarian people, not like reviews of like rock people

565
00:30:57,276 --> 00:31:00,556
Speaker 2: who care about Dave Girl. So it was like we're

566
00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:03,276
Speaker 2: all waiting of like what's what are the initial reviews

567
00:31:03,356 --> 00:31:05,876
Speaker 2: going to be? And I remember it happened to be

568
00:31:05,956 --> 00:31:09,196
Speaker 2: around then that Evan Dando put out his memoir and

569
00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:12,636
Speaker 2: I was invited to go see him play. I hadn't

570
00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:16,476
Speaker 2: seen the Lemonheads and obviously Forever, and I went to

571
00:31:16,876 --> 00:31:19,156
Speaker 2: the show in New York City and I hadn't seen Evan,

572
00:31:19,236 --> 00:31:22,356
Speaker 2: who was a big part of unless he was cut

573
00:31:22,396 --> 00:31:25,556
Speaker 2: out too, so like there's one he's not in there,

574
00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:28,476
Speaker 2: But like there's so many people I had to get balance,

575
00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:30,276
Speaker 2: like how many guys and bands am I going to

576
00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:33,596
Speaker 2: talk about? How many? Versus how many spiritual visions I had?

577
00:31:34,356 --> 00:31:36,996
Speaker 2: So anyhow, I ran it. I went to see him

578
00:31:37,036 --> 00:31:40,196
Speaker 2: backstage before the show and I said congratulations on your book.

579
00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:42,116
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, I hear you have one memoir

580
00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:43,876
Speaker 2: coming out, right, And I said yeah, and he said

581
00:31:43,916 --> 00:31:46,716
Speaker 2: have you read it yet? And I said read it?

582
00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:50,396
Speaker 2: I wrote it and he said, oh, I didn't read

583
00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:53,796
Speaker 2: mine until I was doing the audio book. Granted, Evan

584
00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:55,516
Speaker 2: is like proudly a mess.

585
00:31:56,476 --> 00:31:57,956
Speaker 1: But I thought he was like a literary I mean,

586
00:31:57,956 --> 00:31:58,996
Speaker 1: he's a smart.

587
00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:00,836
Speaker 2: Guy, but I guess he doesn't have the discipline perhaps

588
00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:03,036
Speaker 2: to write. I'm sure he dictated stuff. All I know

589
00:32:03,236 --> 00:32:05,316
Speaker 2: is that's what he said to me. I think it

590
00:32:05,396 --> 00:32:08,556
Speaker 2: was known even I'm not busting his spot because I

591
00:32:08,636 --> 00:32:10,596
Speaker 2: think it was even said in New York Times, like

592
00:32:10,956 --> 00:32:13,836
Speaker 2: he didn't write it. But I then went back to

593
00:32:13,996 --> 00:32:17,276
Speaker 2: my publishers, who I love, Hashet de Capo and my

594
00:32:17,436 --> 00:32:21,716
Speaker 2: agents and said, wait a second, Evan didn't write his book.

595
00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:24,996
Speaker 2: Tell me more like, well, most rock memoirs are ghostwritten.

596
00:32:25,716 --> 00:32:28,356
Speaker 2: And I didn't know that. And I said, oh shit,

597
00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:30,836
Speaker 2: are people going to think somebody else wrote my book?

598
00:32:31,236 --> 00:32:34,356
Speaker 2: And hands down my agents and publishers and I think

599
00:32:34,396 --> 00:32:37,916
Speaker 2: it translated into the way it was received, said absolutely not.

600
00:32:38,276 --> 00:32:41,916
Speaker 2: It's too personal, it's too originales. Oh, they'll think.

601
00:32:42,036 --> 00:32:44,916
Speaker 1: Exactly what we just assume right picking it up, this

602
00:32:45,036 --> 00:32:45,436
Speaker 1: is going to be.

603
00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:48,436
Speaker 2: But anyone who can get through a book or who

604
00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:51,676
Speaker 2: cares about writing, apparently, if you read it, you can

605
00:32:51,756 --> 00:32:54,396
Speaker 2: tell no one could have channeled like it's because it's

606
00:32:54,436 --> 00:32:56,516
Speaker 2: not just I guess my voice that I found, but

607
00:32:56,636 --> 00:32:58,996
Speaker 2: it is the thing I worked the hardest on, which

608
00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:01,836
Speaker 2: is where the bass player in me comes out. Is

609
00:33:02,076 --> 00:33:06,676
Speaker 2: the arc of the arrangement in a song. It's verse,

610
00:33:06,756 --> 00:33:09,756
Speaker 2: chorus versus chorus, bridge, bridge bridge. It's like I built

611
00:33:09,836 --> 00:33:13,996
Speaker 2: a structure of this book that reflected a song arrangement

612
00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:19,676
Speaker 2: of Dreamscape number one, Dreamscape number two, father interlude. So

613
00:33:19,756 --> 00:33:22,196
Speaker 2: I have all of these sort of interludes and then

614
00:33:22,236 --> 00:33:24,396
Speaker 2: broken up by my photos. So I really wanted to

615
00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:28,076
Speaker 2: be a journey and not just a literary experience. And

616
00:33:28,636 --> 00:33:31,036
Speaker 2: apparently people believe I wrote it, and I did write it.

617
00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:32,116
Speaker 2: You've heard it here.

618
00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:35,996
Speaker 1: Now after the break, we're back with the rest of

619
00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:44,156
Speaker 1: Melissa A DeMar Your dad is seemed coolest. Yeah, I

620
00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:46,476
Speaker 1: mean your mom too, But I really did relate to

621
00:33:46,596 --> 00:33:48,796
Speaker 1: your your dad in so many lays.

622
00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:52,156
Speaker 2: I mean, like timeless journalists that I hope still.

623
00:33:52,436 --> 00:33:55,036
Speaker 1: Exist, I don't know. I don't think they did.

624
00:33:56,716 --> 00:33:59,756
Speaker 2: He was definitely from another century already, so now they're

625
00:33:59,796 --> 00:34:04,236
Speaker 2: really outdated. Yeah yeah, right before coming into this, I

626
00:34:04,436 --> 00:34:09,476
Speaker 2: was approving as the error of to his like see

627
00:34:09,476 --> 00:34:11,596
Speaker 2: in writing I'm It's only child, but I was just

628
00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:16,196
Speaker 2: a hit. Just received a request from moment Factory. You

629
00:34:16,276 --> 00:34:18,116
Speaker 2: know that's a big and immersive you know, they're a

630
00:34:18,156 --> 00:34:20,956
Speaker 2: Montreal based thing, but they do all the Billie Eilish

631
00:34:21,116 --> 00:34:24,636
Speaker 2: like Olivia Adrigou everything shows. But they also have deep

632
00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:27,676
Speaker 2: roots in Montreal and Montreal is really invests in their

633
00:34:27,756 --> 00:34:31,876
Speaker 2: culture queebeck. Even over the rest of Canada, the government

634
00:34:32,076 --> 00:34:36,116
Speaker 2: invests in the identity and the artists and the culture

635
00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:40,276
Speaker 2: of the city and so there's always something. So Moment

636
00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:43,796
Speaker 2: Factory decorate the Montreal and the city of Montreal with

637
00:34:43,876 --> 00:34:46,356
Speaker 2: installations all over the place. So like, for example, our

638
00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:49,596
Speaker 2: mini Notre Dame Cathedral, you know, which is the miniature

639
00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:52,116
Speaker 2: of the Paris one. Moment Factory has one of my

640
00:34:52,236 --> 00:34:58,956
Speaker 2: favorite like New Age Cathedral video sonic shows. Some people

641
00:34:58,996 --> 00:35:01,076
Speaker 2: think it's kind of like cheesy, but Montreal has this

642
00:35:01,196 --> 00:35:04,396
Speaker 2: really cool lo fi hi fi thing where it's an

643
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:06,836
Speaker 2: ancient city but it's super high tech, which is why

644
00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:09,636
Speaker 2: moment Factory and all like the special effects for films

645
00:35:09,756 --> 00:35:12,716
Speaker 2: like the French Canadian. The quebecer is a very very

646
00:35:12,916 --> 00:35:15,996
Speaker 2: like high tech, but the culture is very ancient and

647
00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:19,916
Speaker 2: so but there's always these interventions happening between futuristic video

648
00:35:19,996 --> 00:35:22,876
Speaker 2: installation mon Factory and an old place in Montreal. And

649
00:35:22,956 --> 00:35:27,076
Speaker 2: I just as I was walking into this interview, was

650
00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:30,636
Speaker 2: approving the use of a quote of my father's for

651
00:35:30,956 --> 00:35:34,116
Speaker 2: a moment Factory video installation they're going to be doing

652
00:35:34,156 --> 00:35:36,876
Speaker 2: at the Montreal Cemetery. So the Montreal Cemetery is the

653
00:35:36,916 --> 00:35:40,836
Speaker 2: equivalent of pat Laches and it was for Canada, you know,

654
00:35:40,916 --> 00:35:44,356
Speaker 2: for like old cemeteries. But it was designed by Home Homestead,

655
00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:47,156
Speaker 2: who did Central Park. So all of Montreal is based

656
00:35:47,156 --> 00:35:51,796
Speaker 2: around this, this giant, beautiful mountain, so Mount Royal, the

657
00:35:51,876 --> 00:35:52,836
Speaker 2: Royal Mountain.

658
00:35:52,636 --> 00:35:55,476
Speaker 1: That has been a park exactly.

659
00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:57,116
Speaker 2: And I grew up in front of the park. I

660
00:35:57,156 --> 00:36:00,036
Speaker 2: grew up on the park and the cemetery is on

661
00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:02,316
Speaker 2: the top of the mountain. My father is buried there.

662
00:36:02,876 --> 00:36:07,156
Speaker 2: And Moment Factory are doing an immersive history tour of

663
00:36:07,316 --> 00:36:11,436
Speaker 2: the museum of the cemetery, like projections Dead of Winter.

664
00:36:11,956 --> 00:36:15,036
Speaker 2: So they were getting my approval as my father's error

665
00:36:15,116 --> 00:36:17,876
Speaker 2: to approve the quote that I don't know if it's

666
00:36:17,916 --> 00:36:21,156
Speaker 2: going to be written on his tombstone or audio projected,

667
00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:24,996
Speaker 2: but it is. My life has been so much fun

668
00:36:25,196 --> 00:36:30,156
Speaker 2: it should be illegal. And he, you know, he had

669
00:36:30,196 --> 00:36:33,836
Speaker 2: the largest funeral of Montreal history. He was completely in

670
00:36:34,036 --> 00:36:36,436
Speaker 2: love with his city. His city was his muse. He

671
00:36:36,596 --> 00:36:41,476
Speaker 2: gave every bar, every alleyway, every homeless person, every nune

672
00:36:41,876 --> 00:36:45,676
Speaker 2: all the love equally. And he devoted himself to that

673
00:36:45,796 --> 00:36:48,396
Speaker 2: city but burned at both ends by being a journalist

674
00:36:48,476 --> 00:36:51,556
Speaker 2: and a basically an ambassador of the spirit of that city.

675
00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:52,996
Speaker 1: And he was a journalist, but he was also like

676
00:36:53,956 --> 00:36:55,876
Speaker 1: a bit I can mean, you know, run. He did

677
00:36:55,916 --> 00:36:57,356
Speaker 1: a bit of every I mean. So he was a.

678
00:36:57,396 --> 00:37:01,436
Speaker 2: Journalist, of course. He started as a newspaper journalist, but

679
00:37:01,516 --> 00:37:04,596
Speaker 2: then grew into radio, had his own television series which

680
00:37:04,716 --> 00:37:08,396
Speaker 2: is on CBC, so ahead of its time, like Vice TV.

681
00:37:08,676 --> 00:37:11,556
Speaker 2: Probably were directly inspired because those are guys I grew

682
00:37:11,636 --> 00:37:16,396
Speaker 2: up with. But it's nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy three,

683
00:37:16,636 --> 00:37:20,196
Speaker 2: every summer man and a camera on the streets of

684
00:37:20,276 --> 00:37:24,596
Speaker 2: Montreal asking the people of Montreal at that counterculture moment,

685
00:37:25,516 --> 00:37:28,116
Speaker 2: what's on your mind, and they would just stand with

686
00:37:28,196 --> 00:37:32,196
Speaker 2: the camera and speak to all the wild people in

687
00:37:32,276 --> 00:37:34,636
Speaker 2: the hot summer streets in Montreal. I have all the

688
00:37:34,796 --> 00:37:38,796
Speaker 2: archives are incredible, and that's what got my father into politics.

689
00:37:38,916 --> 00:37:41,156
Speaker 2: So he had as had his own radio and then

690
00:37:41,196 --> 00:37:43,356
Speaker 2: his own TV show, and he met the people who

691
00:37:43,436 --> 00:37:47,436
Speaker 2: are the voters who were not satisfied with the politicians.

692
00:37:47,516 --> 00:37:50,836
Speaker 2: So when my father got into Montreal politics and won

693
00:37:50,916 --> 00:37:53,436
Speaker 2: as an independent in nineteen seventy four at the age

694
00:37:53,476 --> 00:37:55,756
Speaker 2: of thirty two, it had never been in politics. He

695
00:37:55,876 --> 00:38:02,076
Speaker 2: wins his first election and continues to run different districts,

696
00:38:02,116 --> 00:38:05,116
Speaker 2: but then eventually gets the stronghold of downtown Montreal as

697
00:38:05,196 --> 00:38:09,996
Speaker 2: his neighborhood. And all the bar owners, all the little ladies,

698
00:38:10,036 --> 00:38:13,516
Speaker 2: everybody depends on my father. His father. His number is

699
00:38:13,596 --> 00:38:15,316
Speaker 2: in the phone book and you can call him twenty

700
00:38:15,356 --> 00:38:17,676
Speaker 2: four hours a day, as like the Montreal helpline. So

701
00:38:17,796 --> 00:38:20,676
Speaker 2: my father lived to be that guy that you could

702
00:38:20,676 --> 00:38:23,236
Speaker 2: stop on the street and complain about your garbage pickup

703
00:38:23,316 --> 00:38:26,636
Speaker 2: or whatever. And then when I got old enough and

704
00:38:26,756 --> 00:38:29,076
Speaker 2: I was on the campaign trails with him and knocking

705
00:38:29,156 --> 00:38:32,356
Speaker 2: on doors and waiting on election night getting all of

706
00:38:32,476 --> 00:38:34,396
Speaker 2: these you know, weight is he gonna lose? Is he

707
00:38:34,436 --> 00:38:38,076
Speaker 2: gonna win? And watching this like ferocious, like determination to

708
00:38:38,236 --> 00:38:42,036
Speaker 2: represent the people of Montreal, and as a twelve year

709
00:38:42,036 --> 00:38:45,476
Speaker 2: old girl being like I remember one night being so scared,

710
00:38:45,636 --> 00:38:48,276
Speaker 2: like if he loses, he'll be so disappointed. He works

711
00:38:48,316 --> 00:38:51,196
Speaker 2: so hard, and I remember tugging on his sleeve and saying, Nick,

712
00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:56,716
Speaker 2: why do you do this? And like this is why

713
00:38:56,796 --> 00:38:59,316
Speaker 2: he's my hero. And he looked down. He said, Melissa,

714
00:38:59,516 --> 00:39:03,436
Speaker 2: because I don't trust those assholes to do this, and

715
00:39:03,596 --> 00:39:06,516
Speaker 2: this is what we should all be living by right now.

716
00:39:06,636 --> 00:39:09,316
Speaker 2: Don't trust the asshole politicians to be taking care of

717
00:39:09,356 --> 00:39:11,356
Speaker 2: the people. And he did it, and he had the

718
00:39:11,476 --> 00:39:14,236
Speaker 2: voice of his column He wrote from the Montreal Gazette

719
00:39:14,276 --> 00:39:16,876
Speaker 2: three days a week for his whole career, and it

720
00:39:16,996 --> 00:39:20,636
Speaker 2: was just what's happening in Montreal. He was the voice

721
00:39:20,836 --> 00:39:23,116
Speaker 2: of this is and he had his morning radio slot,

722
00:39:23,476 --> 00:39:26,276
Speaker 2: but mainly his columns, which then was a book when

723
00:39:27,076 --> 00:39:29,556
Speaker 2: after he died, we put together a collection of his

724
00:39:29,756 --> 00:39:31,796
Speaker 2: work and it was and that's where I get a

725
00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:34,076
Speaker 2: lot of the quotes in my memoir where I bring

726
00:39:34,396 --> 00:39:38,156
Speaker 2: his stories about my life through his voice. And it

727
00:39:38,276 --> 00:39:40,956
Speaker 2: is a funny place that we're starting in this conversation

728
00:39:41,076 --> 00:39:45,556
Speaker 2: about but my father was a very particular storyteller, and

729
00:39:45,636 --> 00:39:47,636
Speaker 2: that he wrote in that format, which at the time

730
00:39:47,756 --> 00:39:50,196
Speaker 2: is like the blog slash social media of the time.

731
00:39:50,276 --> 00:39:53,276
Speaker 2: It's the sure substack whatever it is. But he just

732
00:39:53,356 --> 00:39:55,836
Speaker 2: three days a week wrote like a letter to montrealer.

733
00:39:55,836 --> 00:39:57,916
Speaker 2: It's like, hey, I'm at the bar. I met this person.

734
00:39:58,516 --> 00:40:02,156
Speaker 2: I think strawberries are stupid and raspberries are overrated. Like

735
00:40:02,276 --> 00:40:04,836
Speaker 2: he just wrote whatever the hell he wanted, and he

736
00:40:05,036 --> 00:40:07,116
Speaker 2: was the voice of Montreal. And I grew up, you know,

737
00:40:07,196 --> 00:40:09,596
Speaker 2: with kids who would tell me like we read your

738
00:40:09,636 --> 00:40:12,316
Speaker 2: father's column every morning at breakfast, and like so I

739
00:40:12,476 --> 00:40:15,596
Speaker 2: and then I was a character in the column, Like

740
00:40:15,716 --> 00:40:17,636
Speaker 2: he'd talk about what he got me for his birthday,

741
00:40:17,716 --> 00:40:19,716
Speaker 2: or the time we went to a Buddha pest and

742
00:40:19,796 --> 00:40:22,636
Speaker 2: he got scammed by a person with the coconut shells

743
00:40:22,676 --> 00:40:24,756
Speaker 2: and he lost one hundred bucks. Like this was just

744
00:40:24,876 --> 00:40:25,596
Speaker 2: he just told him.

745
00:40:25,676 --> 00:40:27,076
Speaker 1: Dad looks at the kind of person who would be

746
00:40:27,236 --> 00:40:28,916
Speaker 1: thrilled that he got scammed by breast.

747
00:40:29,116 --> 00:40:31,036
Speaker 2: He yes, and again I was scared.

748
00:40:31,196 --> 00:40:31,516
Speaker 1: Is he mad?

749
00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:33,116
Speaker 2: He was kind of laughing. He's like, I can't believe.

750
00:40:33,116 --> 00:40:34,796
Speaker 2: And then he tried to go back to find the guy.

751
00:40:34,916 --> 00:40:36,196
Speaker 2: I was like, you're not gonna be able to find

752
00:40:36,236 --> 00:40:39,316
Speaker 2: this guy anyhow. He was incredible, but he died at

753
00:40:39,356 --> 00:40:40,476
Speaker 2: my age that I am right.

754
00:40:40,396 --> 00:40:44,836
Speaker 1: Now, you're oh, yes, So does do you have this

755
00:40:44,996 --> 00:40:48,356
Speaker 1: sort of typical the usual thing? I keep wanting both

756
00:40:48,396 --> 00:40:52,316
Speaker 1: my parents are still alive, and but I sort of

757
00:40:52,356 --> 00:40:54,036
Speaker 1: wonderf that'll happen to me as well. But I feel

758
00:40:54,036 --> 00:40:55,916
Speaker 1: like there is a thing where people sort of start

759
00:40:55,996 --> 00:40:59,556
Speaker 1: to get anxious around well to their parents.

760
00:40:59,756 --> 00:41:02,396
Speaker 2: Well, grief is a beast. So no matter what, death

761
00:41:02,516 --> 00:41:06,516
Speaker 2: is the greatest mystery other than love, because love is

762
00:41:06,596 --> 00:41:08,676
Speaker 2: throughout life, but death is over and then it's just

763
00:41:08,796 --> 00:41:12,236
Speaker 2: left of those who didn't die to deal with the

764
00:41:12,316 --> 00:41:15,996
Speaker 2: mystery of what the health. Yeah, and so I think,

765
00:41:16,076 --> 00:41:19,996
Speaker 2: if anything, I get tingling and weird every Easter, because

766
00:41:20,036 --> 00:41:24,596
Speaker 2: he died on Good Friday, cremated on Easter Sunday, and

767
00:41:24,916 --> 00:41:28,516
Speaker 2: buried at the biggest funeral Montreal history on Easter Monday.

768
00:41:28,716 --> 00:41:32,276
Speaker 2: So we had this arc and every time Easter comes,

769
00:41:32,356 --> 00:41:35,316
Speaker 2: I start my DNA starts sort of like flickering, and

770
00:41:35,396 --> 00:41:40,716
Speaker 2: I start having new feelings about him. I think it's

771
00:41:40,796 --> 00:41:43,956
Speaker 2: been like twenty seven years now, or something. So it's

772
00:41:44,196 --> 00:41:46,316
Speaker 2: and that it doesn't change like there was at the

773
00:41:46,356 --> 00:41:48,316
Speaker 2: twenty five year anniversary. I think it might have been

774
00:41:48,316 --> 00:41:52,236
Speaker 2: the first time I wept, like like I just woke up.

775
00:41:52,396 --> 00:41:56,556
Speaker 2: I realized this is horrific. This is it's still it's

776
00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:59,956
Speaker 2: like you protect yourself from loss and grief. But what's

777
00:41:59,996 --> 00:42:02,956
Speaker 2: interesting is now that I'm on the eve of turning

778
00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:06,236
Speaker 2: the age that he was when he died. I mean,

779
00:42:06,316 --> 00:42:08,836
Speaker 2: I have actually felt a tiny bit spooked about that,

780
00:42:09,116 --> 00:42:11,916
Speaker 2: and I'm not you know, I'm not afraid of death actually,

781
00:42:11,956 --> 00:42:16,076
Speaker 2: and I'm grateful that I witnessed my father diet at

782
00:42:16,116 --> 00:42:18,036
Speaker 2: the young age my I was twenty six, and it

783
00:42:18,156 --> 00:42:20,276
Speaker 2: was the greatest gift gateway of my life to be

784
00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:23,196
Speaker 2: able to like just look straight on at the brutality

785
00:42:23,276 --> 00:42:27,436
Speaker 2: of like how especially the way he went out. Just fuck,

786
00:42:27,516 --> 00:42:29,236
Speaker 2: you can't live. See you later.

787
00:42:29,436 --> 00:42:33,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're such a fun person to talk to you.

788
00:42:33,356 --> 00:42:34,996
Speaker 1: I wish I had even more time.

789
00:42:35,476 --> 00:42:37,556
Speaker 2: Do you have any other questions? I didn't answer.

790
00:42:37,596 --> 00:42:41,716
Speaker 1: I have a bunch of questions. So doing celebrity skin

791
00:42:44,196 --> 00:42:47,076
Speaker 1: your drummer, bile drummer and hold patty? Yeah?

792
00:42:47,156 --> 00:42:48,716
Speaker 2: She u booted out.

793
00:42:49,036 --> 00:42:50,516
Speaker 1: She gets replaced by a man.

794
00:42:51,796 --> 00:42:55,476
Speaker 2: I mean, what brutal, what terrible, tragic, horrible.

795
00:42:55,196 --> 00:42:58,756
Speaker 1: And the producer is a guy who is interested. I don't.

796
00:42:58,996 --> 00:43:01,116
Speaker 2: I've never yeah, Michael byin her, and he had a

797
00:43:01,156 --> 00:43:03,916
Speaker 2: reputation at the time for making hit records about being

798
00:43:04,076 --> 00:43:06,436
Speaker 2: hard on drummers, so we kind of knew it going in.

799
00:43:07,276 --> 00:43:09,636
Speaker 1: Was that his agenda to get her possible.

800
00:43:10,236 --> 00:43:12,956
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that's so tragic about it is

801
00:43:13,036 --> 00:43:16,676
Speaker 2: that what makes Celebrity Skin great is the songs. And

802
00:43:16,796 --> 00:43:19,956
Speaker 2: Patti wrote all those parts, and we worked for years

803
00:43:19,996 --> 00:43:24,596
Speaker 2: writing that record, and her punk meets just the coolest

804
00:43:24,636 --> 00:43:27,356
Speaker 2: style of drumming. The record is great because she wrote

805
00:43:27,956 --> 00:43:30,916
Speaker 2: me and her wrote together as bass player, drummer, rhythm

806
00:43:31,036 --> 00:43:32,236
Speaker 2: section in that style.

807
00:43:32,316 --> 00:43:32,716
Speaker 1: That is that.

808
00:43:33,756 --> 00:43:37,956
Speaker 2: But the agenda for everyone, for the managers, the label,

809
00:43:38,036 --> 00:43:42,156
Speaker 2: and for Courtney the bandleader, was make the most glossy,

810
00:43:43,276 --> 00:43:47,276
Speaker 2: radio friendly, ready to go hit record. That's what was

811
00:43:48,076 --> 00:43:53,836
Speaker 2: being commissioned. And so, according to some people, perfect drums

812
00:43:54,636 --> 00:43:57,396
Speaker 2: and not nuance. But then I also write a whole

813
00:43:57,596 --> 00:44:00,076
Speaker 2: chapter which you might remember, called the Rise of the

814
00:44:00,636 --> 00:44:04,276
Speaker 2: Digital soul Sucking Monster, where I discover there's a new

815
00:44:04,356 --> 00:44:06,916
Speaker 2: invention called pro tools, and it lives in a tiny

816
00:44:06,996 --> 00:44:10,876
Speaker 2: toaster and it's leaving our fabulous, expensive studio and going

817
00:44:11,076 --> 00:44:14,756
Speaker 2: up into Runyan Canyon with all these guys doing coke

818
00:44:14,836 --> 00:44:18,516
Speaker 2: on computers fixing drum and bass parts. I was like,

819
00:44:18,676 --> 00:44:21,916
Speaker 2: excuse me, what is happening actually, And so I write,

820
00:44:21,996 --> 00:44:25,196
Speaker 2: there's a whole chapter dedicated to what I saw coming,

821
00:44:25,756 --> 00:44:28,396
Speaker 2: and I will and the joke is, yeah, they wanted

822
00:44:28,436 --> 00:44:30,996
Speaker 2: it to be perfect. And I describe this conversation of

823
00:44:31,116 --> 00:44:33,636
Speaker 2: me and this pro tools engineer, which was like a

824
00:44:33,756 --> 00:44:38,996
Speaker 2: new specimen of human explaining showing me these wavelengths, like,

825
00:44:39,316 --> 00:44:42,356
Speaker 2: is that what they're called wavelengths? Yes, this is your

826
00:44:42,396 --> 00:44:45,836
Speaker 2: base part waveforms, thank you, this is your base part.

827
00:44:45,956 --> 00:44:47,876
Speaker 2: This is the kick drum, and I'm moving it to

828
00:44:47,956 --> 00:44:50,516
Speaker 2: make it perfectly. And I said, wait wait, but he said,

829
00:44:50,556 --> 00:44:53,236
Speaker 2: Michael wants them perfect. And I said, I said, but wait,

830
00:44:53,356 --> 00:44:56,436
Speaker 2: but what about the perfection of human imperfection? Are we

831
00:44:56,636 --> 00:44:59,116
Speaker 2: risking losing? And what's cool?

832
00:44:59,236 --> 00:44:59,396
Speaker 1: Though?

833
00:44:59,556 --> 00:45:01,836
Speaker 2: Now I have to say, I mean the making celebrity

834
00:45:01,836 --> 00:45:04,396
Speaker 2: skin was so painful because I lost my best friend

835
00:45:04,436 --> 00:45:08,356
Speaker 2: in the band. She didn't die, but she did disappear

836
00:45:08,436 --> 00:45:10,636
Speaker 2: to her addiction for a decade after that, So it

837
00:45:10,836 --> 00:45:13,876
Speaker 2: was like losing her, and then also just the turmoil

838
00:45:13,956 --> 00:45:16,916
Speaker 2: of the pressure of like make the hit, and just

839
00:45:16,996 --> 00:45:20,196
Speaker 2: like the fame that was rising, and Courtney's miracle of

840
00:45:20,996 --> 00:45:24,316
Speaker 2: becoming all of a sudden a red carpet ready, like

841
00:45:24,476 --> 00:45:27,676
Speaker 2: the whole transition that what happened during Celebrity Skin was

842
00:45:27,756 --> 00:45:31,356
Speaker 2: so drastic, So there was a lot of pain wrapped

843
00:45:31,396 --> 00:45:33,796
Speaker 2: in and my father died while we were making it,

844
00:45:33,916 --> 00:45:36,196
Speaker 2: on the eve of releasing it, so I was a

845
00:45:36,316 --> 00:45:40,076
Speaker 2: shell of a human. So I have very painful associations

846
00:45:40,116 --> 00:45:42,556
Speaker 2: with making the record, But twenty five years later, I'm

847
00:45:42,716 --> 00:45:46,316
Speaker 2: very proud that it stands very strong again, mostly for

848
00:45:46,396 --> 00:45:49,516
Speaker 2: the songwriting, and I'm very proud of my bass playing

849
00:45:49,556 --> 00:45:51,316
Speaker 2: and my backups, so you know, there's like twelve of

850
00:45:51,436 --> 00:45:54,636
Speaker 2: my vocals to every one of Courtney's growls. So proud

851
00:45:54,676 --> 00:45:57,836
Speaker 2: of it. And I think it has also aged beautifully

852
00:45:58,076 --> 00:46:06,076
Speaker 2: as far as authentic tape recording and slight pro tools intervention.

853
00:46:06,396 --> 00:46:08,596
Speaker 2: So now we've gone too far, you know, now. I

854
00:46:08,676 --> 00:46:11,796
Speaker 2: mean that's obviously everything from dance music to pop to

855
00:46:11,916 --> 00:46:13,756
Speaker 2: hip hop. I mean, obviously it's a lot of it's

856
00:46:13,756 --> 00:46:16,436
Speaker 2: all mad on machines, But as far as rock bands go,

857
00:46:17,276 --> 00:46:20,516
Speaker 2: it's very important. And I'm assuming Rick Rubin is still

858
00:46:20,636 --> 00:46:22,636
Speaker 2: making real records with bands in the room, you know,

859
00:46:22,756 --> 00:46:26,076
Speaker 2: like that's still that's so rare now because a bands

860
00:46:26,156 --> 00:46:28,756
Speaker 2: don't even exist because people can't afford practice spaces, so

861
00:46:28,796 --> 00:46:30,916
Speaker 2: you can't everyone's at home making their music because you

862
00:46:30,956 --> 00:46:32,676
Speaker 2: can't have a drummer and a bass where and you

863
00:46:33,036 --> 00:46:35,036
Speaker 2: have to have ten jobs to be able to do anything,

864
00:46:35,116 --> 00:46:36,916
Speaker 2: so you can't be in the studio like in a

865
00:46:37,156 --> 00:46:38,756
Speaker 2: dumpy space for ten years.

866
00:46:38,836 --> 00:46:41,436
Speaker 1: Realized too, you know, like people used to get like

867
00:46:41,956 --> 00:46:44,156
Speaker 1: even for myself when I was in bad like the drummer.

868
00:46:44,236 --> 00:46:46,316
Speaker 1: You know, drummers just have like they can't ever stop.

869
00:46:46,516 --> 00:46:47,916
Speaker 1: I was just can't and I was thinking about how

870
00:46:47,956 --> 00:46:51,276
Speaker 1: like they amusing used to bother everybody. Yeah, you're like

871
00:46:51,356 --> 00:46:53,956
Speaker 1: the like the beat to everything is the same. You're like, well,

872
00:46:53,996 --> 00:46:56,036
Speaker 1: it's like the beat on a song ever changes, like

873
00:46:56,116 --> 00:46:57,956
Speaker 1: the rhythm. It's like the rhythm is just locked through

874
00:46:58,396 --> 00:47:00,716
Speaker 1: because you don't have a person.

875
00:47:02,116 --> 00:47:08,876
Speaker 2: Well, isn't that also reflecting like how mono are arts

876
00:47:08,916 --> 00:47:11,676
Speaker 2: and culture other than incredible artist You know, there's always

877
00:47:11,756 --> 00:47:16,196
Speaker 2: birthing of incredible radical counterculture original artists, but the general

878
00:47:16,916 --> 00:47:20,676
Speaker 2: mainstream of existence is like everyone's wearing the same clothes,

879
00:47:20,716 --> 00:47:24,076
Speaker 2: liking the same coffee, and doing the same thing on

880
00:47:24,116 --> 00:47:27,476
Speaker 2: their stupid phone. So the the the ironing out of

881
00:47:27,796 --> 00:47:31,236
Speaker 2: characters that you know, we were blessed as gen x of,

882
00:47:31,356 --> 00:47:34,516
Speaker 2: like the the Alan Gibbs, you know, the beat poets

883
00:47:34,556 --> 00:47:37,356
Speaker 2: of the sixties through the nineties, not to mention the seventies.

884
00:47:38,116 --> 00:47:39,076
Speaker 2: I know, it's cool.

885
00:47:39,276 --> 00:47:41,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking at the book right.

886
00:47:41,276 --> 00:47:43,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a section of the book called Fellow Travelers,

887
00:47:43,756 --> 00:47:46,636
Speaker 2: and it's the I went to art school for self portraiture,

888
00:47:46,676 --> 00:47:48,516
Speaker 2: but it turns out I went to art school for selfies,

889
00:47:48,516 --> 00:47:50,836
Speaker 2: and that's like a whole grid of showing my selfies.

890
00:47:50,876 --> 00:47:54,036
Speaker 2: I took with every from Danny DeVito to Adam Sandler

891
00:47:54,116 --> 00:47:59,716
Speaker 2: to you know where you look so young and happy

892
00:48:03,756 --> 00:48:06,716
Speaker 2: Freedom Concert, which was an amazing show, and everybody was,

893
00:48:07,716 --> 00:48:10,356
Speaker 2: you know, grateful for what we have in the liberated

894
00:48:10,396 --> 00:48:14,396
Speaker 2: America compared to at the time in the great nineties

895
00:48:15,036 --> 00:48:17,996
Speaker 2: Freedom Free Tibet Festival, Utopia.

896
00:48:19,116 --> 00:48:21,236
Speaker 1: That decade, that from ninety one to two thousand and one,

897
00:48:21,276 --> 00:48:23,636
Speaker 1: that as you explained it, with that being the decade

898
00:48:24,076 --> 00:48:27,716
Speaker 1: decades never really do start culturally like with the turn

899
00:48:27,796 --> 00:48:30,036
Speaker 1: of a right. But so nine even one, two thousand

900
00:48:30,036 --> 00:48:34,716
Speaker 1: and one, you really do capture it amazingly, and you

901
00:48:34,796 --> 00:48:36,956
Speaker 1: explain it kind of maybe as like a thing that

902
00:48:37,556 --> 00:48:39,716
Speaker 1: wasn't so great, and probably in hindsight it wasn't. As

903
00:48:39,756 --> 00:48:43,156
Speaker 1: a kid at the time, it felt amazing that popular

904
00:48:43,236 --> 00:48:49,356
Speaker 1: culture was dominated by alternative things, alternative rock, ridge hip hop,

905
00:48:49,676 --> 00:48:52,836
Speaker 1: which felt very countercultural still like scale, like everything was

906
00:48:52,876 --> 00:48:55,356
Speaker 1: counter Video games are a big business, yeah, you know,

907
00:48:56,036 --> 00:48:58,316
Speaker 1: skateboarding like all of this. So as a kid, you're like,

908
00:48:58,396 --> 00:49:01,796
Speaker 1: this is like life is amazing exactly, but you kind

909
00:49:01,836 --> 00:49:03,916
Speaker 1: of explain it, and I can understand it now is

910
00:49:03,956 --> 00:49:06,436
Speaker 1: a bit of a loss of something important.

911
00:49:07,676 --> 00:49:12,116
Speaker 2: And I stole, co opted and stole youth culture, counter

912
00:49:12,276 --> 00:49:14,516
Speaker 2: culture scene, and now you can't even have it anymore.

913
00:49:14,556 --> 00:49:17,756
Speaker 2: Back to this monoculture everything. I mean, we watched our

914
00:49:17,876 --> 00:49:22,596
Speaker 2: generation basically be like packaged and our you know, don't

915
00:49:22,636 --> 00:49:24,796
Speaker 2: give a shit about what we're wearing, gonna sound like

916
00:49:24,876 --> 00:49:27,996
Speaker 2: whatever we want to sound like, don't even put on

917
00:49:28,116 --> 00:49:34,396
Speaker 2: makeup when I'm going on stage, like that, genuine, just carefree, original,

918
00:49:35,636 --> 00:49:38,156
Speaker 2: you know, no one trying too hard, just being yourself.

919
00:49:38,876 --> 00:49:42,436
Speaker 2: You know, got put onto literally the runway and like Jkruad,

920
00:49:42,556 --> 00:49:45,156
Speaker 2: so like it went from like this cool organic thing

921
00:49:45,236 --> 00:49:47,076
Speaker 2: to like mainstream and now we're just kind of like

922
00:49:48,036 --> 00:49:51,716
Speaker 2: flying through like fake alternative mainstream forever, you know. So

923
00:49:51,996 --> 00:49:55,116
Speaker 2: for me, the it's an ode to the last analog decade,

924
00:49:55,116 --> 00:49:57,476
Speaker 2: but it's also it's a love letter, but it's also

925
00:49:57,796 --> 00:50:02,476
Speaker 2: a eulogy. It's gone, it's dead, you know, like that

926
00:50:02,716 --> 00:50:06,156
Speaker 2: was you know, before all this like meta meta of

927
00:50:06,316 --> 00:50:09,036
Speaker 2: self reflection and likes and seeing yourself in the mirror

928
00:50:09,316 --> 00:50:12,076
Speaker 2: of your phone. It was just so free and like

929
00:50:12,236 --> 00:50:15,196
Speaker 2: no one thought about, you know, that whole that silly

930
00:50:15,316 --> 00:50:17,396
Speaker 2: saying of dance, Like no one's watching. That's what the

931
00:50:17,476 --> 00:50:20,716
Speaker 2: nineties was, just do you. And we were so empowered

932
00:50:20,756 --> 00:50:23,876
Speaker 2: because we were also coming out of the eighties, which

933
00:50:23,956 --> 00:50:25,516
Speaker 2: was a stupid like I feel like we're in the

934
00:50:25,636 --> 00:50:30,076
Speaker 2: eighties all these like porn, Sephora fucking like whatever, this

935
00:50:30,276 --> 00:50:34,916
Speaker 2: plastic surgery, crazy mainstream like girl horrific, and I'm a

936
00:50:35,036 --> 00:50:37,116
Speaker 2: mother of a fourteen year old girl. Luckily she's a

937
00:50:37,196 --> 00:50:40,996
Speaker 2: weird alternative looking redhead. Anyways, So yeah, we were coming

938
00:50:41,036 --> 00:50:42,836
Speaker 2: out of the eighties being like, God, we're not going

939
00:50:42,916 --> 00:50:46,676
Speaker 2: to like wear workout clothes. Anyway, now we are back

940
00:50:46,956 --> 00:50:50,076
Speaker 2: workout with like blown out hair.

941
00:50:50,756 --> 00:50:53,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, and would know. And at least in the eighties

942
00:50:53,596 --> 00:50:57,636
Speaker 1: there was a what turned out to be burgeoning alternative

943
00:50:57,676 --> 00:50:59,996
Speaker 1: scene that you had the pick Sees or whatever.

944
00:51:00,676 --> 00:51:03,516
Speaker 2: Not to mention Robert Smith and the Cure and Morrissey

945
00:51:03,596 --> 00:51:07,516
Speaker 2: and England. England just gave it. The eighties were like

946
00:51:07,676 --> 00:51:10,036
Speaker 2: the dream music for me. I talk a lot in

947
00:51:10,116 --> 00:51:13,036
Speaker 2: the book about my love of depeche Mode. Like writing

948
00:51:13,076 --> 00:51:15,156
Speaker 2: the book, I pretty much only listened to the Cure

949
00:51:15,156 --> 00:51:17,636
Speaker 2: of the Smiths and depeche Mode, like I mean, I

950
00:51:17,676 --> 00:51:20,516
Speaker 2: just went back to I went back to my childhood

951
00:51:20,556 --> 00:51:22,716
Speaker 2: of like the girl who fell in love with music

952
00:51:22,716 --> 00:51:26,316
Speaker 2: who then decided she wanted to find her generations sound,

953
00:51:26,516 --> 00:51:28,516
Speaker 2: you know. So I the eighties was where I fell

954
00:51:28,516 --> 00:51:31,196
Speaker 2: in love with music, and it was those guys you.

955
00:51:31,316 --> 00:51:33,876
Speaker 1: Missed not putting that on here. So this was this

956
00:51:33,956 --> 00:51:34,636
Speaker 1: book was written.

957
00:51:34,756 --> 00:51:36,836
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'll figure out I'll make a playlist.

958
00:51:36,956 --> 00:51:39,156
Speaker 1: Actually this missing depeche Mode. I'll let you know what

959
00:51:39,276 --> 00:51:42,116
Speaker 1: you're sing for. I wish I had more time to

960
00:51:42,156 --> 00:51:43,356
Speaker 1: talk to you. I want to talk to you more

961
00:51:43,436 --> 00:51:45,236
Speaker 1: down the stairs, just if you have a little bit

962
00:51:45,276 --> 00:51:48,156
Speaker 1: of time, of course, but hopefully we'll see you sign

963
00:51:48,196 --> 00:51:48,716
Speaker 1: off or anything.

964
00:51:48,716 --> 00:51:51,676
Speaker 2: That's it. You cut it off for doing this. Yeah,

965
00:51:51,676 --> 00:51:54,236
Speaker 2: of course, thank you for having me. I was very happy.

966
00:51:54,356 --> 00:52:00,276
Speaker 1: I pad the book. It's really beautiful. An episode description,

967
00:52:00,396 --> 00:52:02,036
Speaker 1: you'll find a link to a playlist of some of

968
00:52:02,116 --> 00:52:05,676
Speaker 1: my favorite songs s featuring Melissa off Demahmer. Be sure

969
00:52:05,716 --> 00:52:08,516
Speaker 1: to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast

970
00:52:08,596 --> 00:52:10,996
Speaker 1: to see me all our video of interviews, and be

971
00:52:11,076 --> 00:52:13,716
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record pot.

972
00:52:14,076 --> 00:52:16,956
Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken

973
00:52:16,996 --> 00:52:19,356
Speaker 1: Record is produced and edited by Lea Rose, with marketing

974
00:52:19,396 --> 00:52:22,196
Speaker 1: and help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

975
00:52:22,396 --> 00:52:26,196
Speaker 1: is Ben Tomaday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

976
00:52:26,396 --> 00:52:28,836
Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

977
00:52:28,876 --> 00:52:32,436
Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

978
00:52:32,516 --> 00:52:35,276
Speaker 1: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four

979
00:52:35,396 --> 00:52:37,676
Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple

980
00:52:37,716 --> 00:52:41,196
Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember

981
00:52:41,236 --> 00:52:43,276
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

982
00:52:43,636 --> 00:52:46,116
Speaker 1: Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,