1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: so great to have you here, back for another episode. 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: I think this is the first episode in like five 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: episodes where I am no longer sick and you guys 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: don't have to listen to like a disgusting nasal noise 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: come into your ears. So for that, I am grateful, 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: and for that I am excited for today's episode. We 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: have another well, I should say, I have another mini 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: episode for you today. If you are not familiar with 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: our many episodes, they're basically kind of smaller, bite sized 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: episodes where we break down a certain phrase, a certain 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:11,559 Speaker 1: psychological concept that gets thrown around a lot online, in tiktoks, 17 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: in dating discourse, in group chats, and essentially we dissect 18 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: what it actually means according to the psychology rather than 19 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: according to the pop culture. And today we are tackling, 20 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: let's be honest, the most requested, the most weaponized and 21 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: probably the most misunderstood term and label of them all. 22 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: We are talking about narcissism. I'm not gonna waste any 23 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,919 Speaker 1: time today because we have so much to talk about. 24 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: But narcissism is such a fascinating term when you scratch 25 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: even below a tiny inch below the surface. And it's 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: also such an ancient term, which I think a lot 27 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: of people might not know. Probably maybe no given its 28 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: modern day popularities. So you may have heard of the 29 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: Greek myth of Narcissus before. Basically this is where the 30 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: term comes from. Narcissus was this incredibly handsome, striking young 31 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: man who just really cruelly rejected all of his admirers, 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: so he didn't want anything to do with any of them, 33 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: all these beautiful women. This led to the goddess Nemesis 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: punishing Narcissus with an all consuming love for nothing but 35 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: his own reflection, so much so that the story goes 36 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: he drowned staring at his reflection in a pond, like 37 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: so consumed by wanting so much more of it. This 38 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: is where the term basically gets his name from this man, Narcissus. 39 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: It didn't actually become a psychological term until much much 40 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: later in the eighteen hundreds. In eighteen ninety eight, a 41 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: theorist his name was Havelock Ellis was the first to 42 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: use the narcissus myth to describe a particular kind of 43 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: client or person. He was seeing people who were basically 44 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: just obsessed with themselves, and for him, they were really 45 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: obsessed with themselves, like sexually, like they truly thought that 46 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: they were the hottest thing out. They were really consumed 47 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: by themselves, and he was seeing this pattern of individual 48 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: He also knew the story that is where narcissism originally 49 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: got its label and from their psychoanalysts like Ottorank and 50 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: Sigmund Freud expanded on this to say that narcissism was 51 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: more of a normal characteristic of someone's personality rather than 52 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: something that was exclusively sexual, and it was a spectrum 53 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: that we all kind of sat upon. All of us 54 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: can be a little bit narcissistic, or all of us 55 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: can have quite a low ego that makes us not 56 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: narcissistic at all. When it becomes a little bit unbalanced 57 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: and skewed, and when somebody has more a bigger, higher dosage, 58 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: higher level of narcissism compared to all their other traits 59 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: that creates the type of person that we are familiar with, 60 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: the one who we would say has a disordered way 61 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: of seeing the world and engaging with others because they 62 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: are a narcissist. So, in simple terms, narcissism is a 63 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: personality trait made up of a cluster of behaviors and 64 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: smaller traits like one a heightened sense of self importance, 65 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: two entitlement to special treatment, three a strong need for admiration, 66 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: and four low empathy and exploitative behavior. More broadly, narcissism 67 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: is often described as closely tied to the pursuit of status. 68 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: No matter what, there is this drive within this individual 69 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: to be impressive, to be the center of attention, to 70 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: be kind of socially emotion physically untouchable in some kind 71 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: of way. And that's one of the key points I 72 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: think gets mixed up pretty often. Narcissism is not just 73 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: high self esteem and thinking that you are incredible, because 74 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: some people are really incredible. Some people are just really 75 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: cool and they're successful and they know that and they 76 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: don't actually need to be humble about it. Healthy self 77 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: esteem is this, you know, this is what we would 78 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: label healthy self esteem. Their basis for their positive for 79 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: their positive kind of assumptions about themselves are based in 80 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: evidence they are actually an incredible person. But also these 81 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: people can accept criticism, and they can bounce back from failure, 82 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: and they can bounce back from not being chosen, they 83 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 1: can bounce back from not needing to be the best 84 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: at something. Narcissists, on the other hand, yes, may present 85 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: as incredibly confident, Yes may be successful, but what's underneath 86 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: that is a deep, deep fragility that gives them an 87 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: incredibly unhealthy self esteem that is tied to equal parts 88 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: their own sense of self importance and then equal parts 89 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: the need for everybody else in the room to see 90 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: them as important. And this fragility, this fragility, is what 91 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: fuels defensiveness, blame, control, contempt for others. They need to 92 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: maintain their self image at all costs, because without it, 93 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: they are just this very fragile, very weak, very scared individual. 94 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: Underneath it all, let's talk about really quickly the distinction 95 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: between having narcissistic personality disorder and having something that we 96 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: call basically like having trait narcissism. So just a high 97 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: level of narcissist attributes because they are quite different. Narcissistic 98 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: personality disorder is a very real diagnosis. Somebody can get 99 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: this label in their file, and it was first introduced, 100 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: as we said, in the eighties. But it's actually not 101 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: that common narcissistic personality disorder. I think it has a 102 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: prevalence of anywhere between zero point two to zero point 103 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: six percent of the population, and that's mainly based on 104 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: US population studies. It is actually around fifty to seventy 105 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: five percent more common in males than females, but some 106 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: people have said that's just because women may be better 107 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: at hiding it than men are, because of this social 108 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: conditioning to be more humble, even if that's not the 109 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: way they truly feel. The key thing that the American 110 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: Psychiatric Association highlights, though, is that again, to get to 111 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: this point of being like you are disordered, you have 112 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: a serious, proper something. It has to be very drastic. 113 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: Most people don't get this diagnosis unless you know they've 114 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: experienced several marriage breakdowns, they've come to contact with the 115 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: court system, they have been an abusive partner. Like It's 116 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: quite difficult actually to get that label in most cases 117 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: when we encounter somebody who thinks very highly of themselves, 118 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: is very desperate to seem successful and admirable. They may 119 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: not have a diagnosis, they may not be worthy of 120 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: a diagnosis, but they may be high in this thing 121 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: that I just mentioned called trait narcissism. Trait narcissism is 122 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: not a disorder. It's basically a personality style. It is 123 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: a set of tendencies you can kind of score higher 124 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: or lower on, and doesn't automatically mean that, again, you 125 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: have a disorder. Trait narcissism, the thing that we are 126 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: more commonly encountering basically shows up into very very broad forms. 127 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: The first is grandiose narcissism. So this is the typical 128 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: idea of narcissism that we see. Grandiose narcissism is the 129 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: big inflated ego. It's social dominance. It's this larger than 130 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: life personality. Sometimes these people can come off as really 131 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: charming and really persuasive, but they can also be very 132 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: aggressive and very entitled. This is the idea again we 133 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: know most often. I'm sure you can think of a 134 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: couple of political or cultural examples going on at the moment. 135 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: The second distinct form of narcissism is vulnerable narcissism. This 136 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: is the person that we don't always notice, but who 137 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: is a lot more insidious and sometimes harmful because their 138 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: pattern of behaviors doesn't look like arrogance. Really it's about 139 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: emotional insecure already and defensiveness. They are easily hurt, they 140 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: are easily embarrassed, they are easily threatened, and so what 141 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: they end up doing is trying to put you down, 142 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: trying to emotionally manipulate their surroundings so that they are 143 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: always the victim, so that they always get special treatment, 144 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: so that no matter what, they are at the center 145 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: of attention. But what it's this interesting thing where the 146 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: reason they're at the center of the center of attention 147 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: isn't always because of their achievements. Sometimes it's because of 148 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: their pain and suffering. Sometimes it's because they're the one 149 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: who always has the most dramatic story that they need 150 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: to one up everybody else in the room with. This 151 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: is vulnerable narcissism. Now here's where it gets even more interesting, 152 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: because psychologists have basically realized that just saying grandiose versus 153 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: vulnerable trait narcissism, it still doesn't fully explain it. So 154 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: more recent models break it down into three core components. 155 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: The first component of what makes somebody's narcissistic personality is antagonism, 156 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: and this tends to show up in both grandiose and 157 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: vulnerable narcissism. Antagonism is that entitlement, that exploitativeness, that desire 158 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: to get what you want. It's when there is an 159 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: assumption from somebody that the rules don't apply to me. 160 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: I can get away with whatever I want to, and 161 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 1: the people around me they're not just people. They are resources, 162 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: they are status symbols, they are threats. They are something 163 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: that can be manipulated. I can antagonize them, I can 164 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: manipulate them into doing what I want them to. Component 165 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: two is something called a gentic extraversion, and this is 166 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: more commonly and closely linked to grandiose narcissism, basically social dominance, assertiveness, charisma. 167 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: This again looks like somebody who needs to be the leader. 168 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: They need to be the most impressive, successful person, the 169 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: loudest person, the most the smartest person in a very 170 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: specific kind of way. And then the final and third 171 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: and final component is narcissistic neuroticism. And this is where 172 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: I know I'm really drilling home this point. But this 173 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: is where vulnerable and grandiose narcissism differ, because somebody with 174 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: vulnerable narcissism might not have that extraversion, but what they 175 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: will have is this real sensitivity to criticism and almost 176 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: this like split. I don't want to say split personality 177 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: because that's not what it is, but it does give 178 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: that appearance of this person is really nice. They're so innocent, 179 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: they're so kind, they're so lovely, they've had such a 180 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: hard time, and then when somebody does criticize them, when 181 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: they are not the center of attention, they go in 182 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: for the kill. They see you now as a threat. 183 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: They need to annihilate your character. They become very defensive, 184 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: they become angry, they become resentful, they become withdrawn. And 185 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: this is why you know, both those types of individuals 186 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 1: have trait narcissism, but they look so different. And I 187 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: think that vulnerable narcissism we're talking about is the kind that, 188 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: again is so insidious. You maybe can notice it in 189 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: the relationship you have with family members or a friend, 190 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: where you are having this very different experience to what 191 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: other people are having with this person because they haven't 192 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: been able to see through this this kind of mask 193 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: yet and see what these behaviors and this personality is 194 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: pattern of personality really is, which is that this person 195 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: needs to be the most important and going about it 196 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: the grandiose way maybe hasn't worked for them, So this 197 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: is the new way. They're going to do it equally 198 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: through emotional manipulation, but through a different kind of emotional manipulation. 199 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: So how do you actually spot a real narcissist? I 200 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: want to be really careful here. You cannot diagnose narcissistic 201 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: personality disorder from the outside. You cannot diagnose it from 202 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: one argument, and you definitely can't diagnose it from somebody 203 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: just being a little bit frustrating or a little bit egocentric. 204 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: We all mess up in public spaces sometimes, we all 205 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: have moments of being a little bit grandiose. We all 206 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: have moments where we've definitely dominated a conversation or we've 207 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: been a little bit selfish. That doesn't necessarily give somebody 208 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: a disordered way of thinking, and it doesn't necessarily make 209 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: them high in trade narcissism unless it is a continued pattern. 210 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: And even then I would be very wary of saying 211 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: this person has NPD. I would probably say this person 212 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: is high in narcissistic traits. But here are some questions 213 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: to ask yourself if you genuinely think somebody is this 214 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: and is this kind of force in your life? Number one, 215 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: do you think this person actually cares about you or 216 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: do they care about what you can do for them? 217 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: Do you believe this person sees you as their equal? 218 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: Number two? Do they take on board criticism? Well? Very easy? 219 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: Number three? Are they always at the center of things 220 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: or do they let people tag in to the spotlight? 221 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: Number four? Do different rules apply to them compared to 222 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: everybody else? And can you see that in their behavior? 223 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: Number five? Do they always need to be superior to 224 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: be admired or do they always have to be right 225 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: even if it costs you your dignity and your reputation 226 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: and your well being. Basically, do you believe that you 227 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: have a genuine relationship or are you just a pawn? 228 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: Let's pause here. Those questions are useful. I also know 229 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: what a lot of you guys are thinking, Oh my god, 230 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: what if that's me? Am I a narcissist? I can 231 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: relate to sometimes not taking criticism well. I can relate 232 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: to sometimes wanting the spotlight I like to be right. 233 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: Every time I talk about narcissism, I always think that 234 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: I'm a narcissist. Always I don't know why. And every 235 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: time I make an episode or I mentioned narcissism, I 236 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: always get questions and comments from people being like, is 237 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: that me? Can you diagnose me? Can you tell me 238 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: if I'm one of these people? So I'm going to 239 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: give you a little bit of a personal checklist as 240 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: well to rule out or rule in maybe you are anarcissist. 241 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: You're probably not, but to rule out that you are 242 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: probably probably not. Can you apologize without adding but you 243 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: made me? Yes or no? When you are criticized, do 244 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: you genuinely care about why? Do you genuinely try to 245 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: change your behavior or do you just attack and deflect? 246 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: Do you treat people as whole humans or just as 247 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: an audience? When you feel insecure in a situation at work, 248 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: do you try and repair the situation? Do you try 249 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: and take time away and examine your insecurity or do 250 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: you just try and dominate other people in the space. 251 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: Can you be wrong? Can you be wrong? Have you 252 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 1: been wrong in the last little while. It's a great 253 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: litmus test. Are you actually interested in other people's lives. 254 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: That is the litmus test. Those are the questions that 255 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: I always give people or always think of when that 256 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: thought comes into my head. I also know, even just 257 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: questioning am I a narcissist? Shows me shows you, guys 258 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: that you're probably not, because if you were a narcissist, 259 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: your ego most likely wouldn't even let you consider that 260 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: as a possibility. So it's this funny irony, right, thinking 261 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: that you are probably means that you aren't. You are 262 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: very much safe here. Okay, let's take a short break 263 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: because after this we need to zoom out and talk 264 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: about why this word has exploded culturally and whether we 265 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: are actually becoming more narcissistic as a society. To stay 266 00:18:52,720 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: with us, so we are obviously hearing the term narcissism 267 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: a whole lot more. Is that because narcissism is actually 268 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: increasing in society, or just because it's become a bit 269 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: of a phenomena, because it's just become a source of fascination. 270 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: The thing is, researchers aren't really that short. Because society 271 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: has become more individualistic, it has become more narcissist friendly 272 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: with the rise of social media. Is that just meaning 273 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 1: that narcissistic voices or narcissistic individuals they are getting more 274 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: of a spotlight, or is the underlying prevalence actually increasing. 275 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: So in two thousand and eight, researchers from San Diego 276 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: State University they published their decades long findings on this 277 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: very question. They had a sample of over sixteen thousand 278 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: people that they basically looked at between the years of 279 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine and two thousand and six. They wanted 280 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: to see across these quick my math thirty years. Let's say, 281 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: across these thirty years, are we seeing an increase or 282 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: is it something else at play? That's a lot of people. 283 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: And what they found was that there was a thirty 284 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: percent increase in narcissistic traits based on the earlier year's average. 285 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: So every year they were seeing a slight thirty percent uptick. 286 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: Now you have to remember that's not thirty percent on 287 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: like already half of this population had narcissism or had 288 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: high narcissistic traits. This was like a thirty percent uptick 289 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: on like zero point two, and then on zero point five, 290 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: and then on one percent, and then on two percent. 291 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: So it still was quite minor. But when you hear 292 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: thirty percent, you really your eyes kind of go wide 293 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: of like, oh my god, does that really mean like 294 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: one in three people around me are high and in narcissism. No, 295 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: not necessarily. That is just one finding, and it definitely 296 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: gets more complicated as to whether narcissism is just more 297 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: visible or more prevalent. A more recent twenty twenty four 298 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: large scale meta analysis challenged this idea that we have 299 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: a narcissism epidemic. Researchers they pulled results from over a 300 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: thousand papers looking at narcissism scores using that same measure 301 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: they used in the San Diego study, and they looked 302 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: at it globally from a little bit of a longer 303 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: period nineteen eighty two to twenty twenty three. And what 304 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: was important about the study is that it also included, 305 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, the twenty tens and the early twenty twenties 306 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: where social media really blew up. They actually found that 307 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: narcissistic traits were pretty stable in the eighties and nineties. 308 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,479 Speaker 1: They then actually decreased in the two thousands and in 309 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: more recent decades, which completely contrast the previous study. Here 310 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: is my take that nobody asked for, but I'm going 311 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: to give it to you in the spirit of self 312 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: centeredness and narcissism. I just think that our culture has 313 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: made narcissism and the visibility of narcissism rise to the surface. 314 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: It's not actually increased it. The genuine level of true 315 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: narcissism and people who truly have narcissistic personality disorder is 316 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: pretty stable. They're definitely still out there. It's just given 317 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: us much more visibility of people who may have higher 318 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: rates of this trait, especially because those kinds of people 319 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: who do like attention and who do like being the center, 320 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: and who do have a strong ego, they thrive in 321 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: online spaces. They really do like being not being a narcissist. 322 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: Having high narcissistic traits would make social media a lot 323 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: easier for you. I think it would also make it 324 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: a lot harder for you as well, well, because obviously 325 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: you get to a certain level of fame and you 326 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: are going to get criticism, and that's when we see 327 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: people get really reactive and very angry. That's like a 328 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: very big sign. But you know, we have built this 329 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: world where it's easier than ever to manage your self 330 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: worth externally through metrics through visibility, through likes, through follower account, 331 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: through you know, a curated identity, and that self presentation 332 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: is rewarded. Now, again let's be careful here. Wanting attention, 333 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: wanting to blow up online, wanting to post more content, 334 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 1: liking yourself does not make you a narcissist. There are 335 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: people out there who are truly very manipulative and do 336 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: not want to change, and who cause a whole lot 337 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: of pain. So we have to be really careful with 338 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: over using this term. If everyone is a narcissist, if 339 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: it continues to be this casual phrase, then the word 340 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: stops holding as much power and needing as much attention 341 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: in cases where someone is genuinely problematic, maybe even dangerous. 342 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: I think the other issue with that overuse is that 343 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: it can invalidate people who have lived through a genuine 344 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: pattern of narcissistic abuse or narcissistic control that and they 345 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: just want to be taken seriously. They just want people 346 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: to really see the pattern that they have gone through 347 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: without people assuming that they're just being dramatic or they're 348 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: just latching onto the new buzz hype word. Think about 349 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: cases of again narcissistic abuse or workplace harassment. It can 350 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: turn this overuse, can turn their experience into just another 351 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: Internet buzzword, and it makes it easier again for outsiders 352 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: to dismiss it as, oh, it's just another bit of breakup, 353 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: or it's you know, everybody's boss is a little bit narcissistic, 354 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: everybody's boss is a little bit terrible, rather than recognizing 355 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: that for some people it was prolonged manipulation, prolonged character assassination, coersion, 356 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: psychological harm, and they are paying the price, whether it 357 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: was in a relationship, whether it was with a parent, 358 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: with a sibling, with a friend, with a boss, with 359 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: a coworker. Because of this, I would honestly say we 360 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: need to widen our vocabulary a little bit for why 361 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: somebody we may think as a narcissist, why it was 362 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: that their behavior is so off or so painful without 363 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: just slapping on the easiest label we can find. I 364 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: think this also may help us, you know, privately, understand 365 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: what we've been through and understand our pain. But you know, 366 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: the narcissist label, it may be a shortcut that does 367 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: a disservice. What were you actually experiencing? What about this 368 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: person was truly you know, difficult to endure? Were they manipulated? 369 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: Were they domineering? Did they never let you speak? Did 370 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: they never let you control the friendship or control the relationship? 371 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: Did they never ask you how your day was? Did 372 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: they never consider your life? Did they make you something 373 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: to manipulate to make others like them? Were they hostile, cruel, unthinking, dismissive? Again, 374 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: why did that vocabulary? I think it's actually a very 375 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: healing thing to not just use that label but actually 376 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: be able to articulate why someone's behavior is harmful, not 377 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: just for you, but for them as well, so that 378 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 1: if they aren't actually a narcissist, they can change and 379 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: they can identify, hopefully or have some self awareness as 380 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: to what exactly you were bothered by, rather than just 381 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: hearing you call them a narcissist and being like, well, 382 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: that person doesn't know what they're talking about. The more specific, 383 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: I think, the more power. Let's circle back to that 384 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: thing I said that I've kind of just completely glazed over. 385 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: Can true narcissists change? That is our final question of 386 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: the day. If you just looked online, the general consensus 387 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: would be no. And I get why that idea is 388 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: really popular. If you've been hurt by somebody who repeatedly 389 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: denies your reality, who has twisted blame back onto you, 390 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: who has treated your feelings like an inconvenience. The idea 391 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: that they're incapable of change is really comforting because it 392 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: makes the chaos make sense right, and it makes the 393 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: outcome feel inevitable, not personal. The sad reality is that 394 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: the truth is more nuanced people with narcissistic personality disorder 395 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: or narcissistic traits. There is evidence they can change, or 396 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: that they can give the appearance of change, as some 397 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: people would speculate. It doesn't make it easy. The first 398 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: thing to understand is that narcissistic behaviors often function like 399 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: a protective system. And this isn't to say you have 400 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: to have empathy for this person who has hurt you. 401 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: You have to understand why they are the way they are. 402 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: But you know these aren't just random bad habits. These 403 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: are patterns of self protection, which is why they are 404 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: so stubborn, because you're not just asking somebody to stop 405 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: being arrogant. You are asking them to tolerate emotions that 406 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: their ego and their self finds unbearable, things like shame, inadequacy, 407 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: a sense of worthlessness, vulnerability. So that is why forcing 408 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: change or even asking a narcissist to change does seem 409 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: so impossible because it requires two things. Number one being 410 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: insight that they actually have to see that there is 411 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: a problem with their behavior and acknowledge that they have 412 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: hurt people. That's difficult for anybody to admit, but especially 413 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: hard when your identity is built around being right and 414 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: being special and being untouchable. The other thing they need 415 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: is motivation. You know, many people with more entrenched narcissistic patents, 416 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: they don't seek help because they don't actually experience themselves 417 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: as a problem. So yes, they may be able to 418 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: look back and see this pattern of broken relationships and 419 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: this pattern of people being very angry with them, but 420 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: they don't have the motivation to change because on another level, 421 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: they're very successful. They're making a ton of money, they 422 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: are a leader, they believe they have respect, so this 423 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: trait is also helping them. Often, what therapists will find 424 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: when they do encounter the rare individual with narcissistic personality 425 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: disorder in a clinical setting is that often it's somebody 426 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: else dragging them to the table. A relationship is going 427 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: to end. This marriage is going to fall apart. You 428 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: have done something terrible at work. Your reputation has taken 429 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,959 Speaker 1: a huge hit. They're in the prison setting. They are 430 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: in a you know, they have committed a crime, in 431 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: other words, suffering and the disordered nature of this has 432 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: become so undeniable that either through some miracle they have 433 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: brought themselves in or a system or a person has 434 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: pushed them into a therapy setting. That is how they 435 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: end up there. Let's say this, even if this person 436 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: is able to change and is able to develop empathy 437 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: and a stable sense of self and is able to 438 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: see the issue with their behavior, it's not going to 439 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: happen quickly, and it may not happen at all, but 440 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: there is a chance, there is a small chance. And 441 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: it's kind of this thing, this dilemma where it's like, 442 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: people who genuinely have narcissistic personality disorder, what are we 443 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: meant to do with them in society? You know, hope 444 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: that they get what they want, Hope that they are 445 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: skillful enough to not hurt people in their manipulation. No, like, 446 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: if there is this one percent, let's say, of people 447 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: who just operating out there, what do we do with them? 448 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: And people have to believe. There has to be the 449 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: sense that they can change. There has to be some 450 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: kind of optimism for the role of therapy. The thing is, 451 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: and what is always going to come up in this discussion, 452 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: is with somebody who truly has these traits, do they 453 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: change or do they just learn a new way of operating? 454 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: Do they just learn a new set of behaviors that 455 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: are equally manipulative, which is to fake humility and to 456 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: fake self deprecation and to fake empathy as a disguise 457 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: for true self awareness, which is that they are aware 458 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: they have a problem, or they are least aware that 459 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: people don't enjoy their behavior. They want to be liked, 460 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: so the manipulation or the I guess their behavior then 461 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: tells them that this is the better way to act 462 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: in this new situation to continue being liked, which is 463 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: to basically fake the behaviors that others want to see 464 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: in them. And you know what, how do we know? 465 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: How do we ever know that somebody who has been 466 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: through therapy for narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder has 467 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: genuinely changed or they are faking it? And the thing 468 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: is we don't like, we don't really until moments of 469 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: like vulnerability, or until moments of outrage when somebody is 470 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: pushed really, really far. I guess that's the point where 471 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: we can tell, and those situations are often so rare 472 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: for a narcissist to be in. So as we wrap 473 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: up this episode, I hope that it has given you 474 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: more of a psychological insight into the different ways that narcissism, 475 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: narcissistic traits, narcissistic personality disorder shows up in our society. 476 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: It is not as straightforward as TikTok or social media 477 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: or the Internet might make it seem, and I think 478 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: that's really important to acknowledge for people who have genuinely 479 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: endured really terrible behaviors and really terrible manipulation from people 480 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: who kind of blur the lines and who don't outright 481 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: look like narcissists, don't outright have a diagnosis, but still 482 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: have done terrible things, and also for I also think 483 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: hopefully it's given you some clarity around why it's important 484 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: to use a more specific label for people's behavior rather 485 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: than just jumping to the narcissistic conclusion. People with true 486 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder are quite rare in society, and often 487 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: actually they are very hard to identify because of how 488 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: intense their condition is and how great they are at 489 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: manipulating us. So I think, and I hope it's just 490 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: giving you something to think about. You know, what is 491 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: a narcissist? When does somebody deserve that label? Should I 492 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: be using that label as often as I as I 493 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: do or as I want to? And what are kind 494 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: of the alternatives. Thank you as always for tuning into 495 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: this episode. Thank you to our researcher Libby Colbert for 496 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: her help on this episode as well, and for looking 497 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: through all of those meta analysis for such interesting data. 498 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: Make sure as always that you are following us wherever 499 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: you are listening. Make sure that you are subscribed so 500 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: that you can get new episodes when they come out 501 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Fridays. Also that you're following us on 502 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: Instagram on substack. If you want to read versions of 503 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: episodes like this, if you want them delivered into your inbox, 504 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: that is the place to go. And until next time, 505 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. You will 506 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: talk very very soon. Mm hm