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Speaker 1: Ye, Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. It feels so

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Speaker 1: good to be back. We have a reunion of sorts.

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Speaker 1: You may have heard recently that Noel and I and

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Speaker 1: our good friend Matt Frederick were on the road with

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Speaker 1: our stuff they don't want you to know tour. But

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Speaker 1: we have finally returned, and we have not returned alone.

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Speaker 1: We are joined once again with our fantastic super producer,

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Speaker 1: Casey Pegrum, who came all the way back from France

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Speaker 1: to hang out with us on this show. Kay see

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Speaker 1: on the case, folks, and my trustee co host Noel

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Speaker 1: is on the road this week for a different project,

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Speaker 1: which I can't say too much about now other than

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Speaker 1: all will be revealed in time. And in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: we decided that it would be fantastic to have one

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Speaker 1: of our favorite how Stuff Works celebrities come on the

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Speaker 1: show this week. Ladies and gentlemen, help me welcome. Christopher

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Speaker 1: hasiotis back to Ridiculous History. Ben, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: having me. I feel like I should just be sitting

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Speaker 1: here saying I'm no, but I'm not. No, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I can grow my beard as much as I like,

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Speaker 1: but I still can't match up to the man, but

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Speaker 1: I'll do my best. He has he has spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time on that beard, Christopher. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: just since this is an audio podcast, I just want

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Speaker 1: to describe you a little bit, if that's okay while

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Speaker 1: we're on here. I'm curious, okay, okay, So Christopher, you

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Speaker 1: have a great beard. Thank you. And I think you've

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Speaker 1: been uh you know, you've growing it out a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I see, Uh, yeah, I mean I've had it for

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Speaker 1: a while. It's it's been on my face for decades. Uh.

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Speaker 1: If you want to start talking beards. The very first

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Speaker 1: poem that I ever fully memorized was a poem about beards.

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Speaker 1: Oh do tell she Silverstein. My beard grows to my toes.

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Speaker 1: I never wears no clothes. I wraps my hair around

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Speaker 1: my bear and down the road I goes all these smokes. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I did not know. I did not know that we

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Speaker 1: would be uh, we would be privileged to sit in

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Speaker 1: on a little bit of a poetry recital. Tommy, you

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Speaker 1: didn't You didn't bring your oration today. You're not ready

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Speaker 1: to go. I have I have one that is completely

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Speaker 1: unrelated to today's episode. Uh, and it's a little bit body.

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Speaker 1: It is a poem by Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway, of course,

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Speaker 1: famous famous writer Old Man in the Sea, The Sun

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Speaker 1: also rises, all these, all these works of prose. He

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Speaker 1: has a collected book of poetry which is varied in

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Speaker 1: terms of talent and in terms of quality. But he

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Speaker 1: has one poem It's very short that I suspect he

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Speaker 1: wrote after a drunken night in Paris or Spain, where

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Speaker 1: he says, I know monks master bate at night, and

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Speaker 1: pet cats screw and some girls bite, and yet what

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Speaker 1: can I do to set things right? That's the whole poll.

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Speaker 1: It's a good poem to have in your back pocket.

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Speaker 1: Came in handy here. But speaking of fantastic segways, we

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Speaker 1: mentioned Paris just a second ago. Are you about to

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Speaker 1: talk about a taking a segue tour of Paris? I

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Speaker 1: think in a way we in a way, we we

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Speaker 1: are a segue of the mind, Christopher, And I'm already

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Speaker 1: embarrassed for you. We took we we talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit off air about some interesting stories in the world

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Speaker 1: of ridiculous history. And longtime listeners, you know that Christopher

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Speaker 1: hasiotis aside from having previously appeared on our show to

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Speaker 1: introduce us to some very strange covers of Louis Louis.

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Speaker 1: Christopher Hasiotis has been our longtime research associate and we're

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Speaker 1: we're big fans of you, Christopher. You will also always

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Speaker 1: have the coolest stories and off air. You came to

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Speaker 1: Casey and Nolan I with a pretty neat story about Paris,

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Speaker 1: non segue related. Absolutely. I thought, you know, let's let's

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Speaker 1: combine a lot of ridiculous histories interest. Let's let's take

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Speaker 1: Casey's uh francophilia. Let's take your love of Um Khan men.

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Speaker 1: You know, people who who have these elaborate scams like

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Speaker 1: Gregor McGregor and uh and Noel who is not with

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Speaker 1: us in flash but is in spirit here always uh.

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Speaker 1: He's he's got a love for the the man with

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Speaker 1: with hutzpah with uh with um. You know that that

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Speaker 1: go get him attitude, right? So I thought we should

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Speaker 1: dive into this story about Paris, about the Eiffel Tower,

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Speaker 1: and about a specific con man who wraps all of

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Speaker 1: these things up into one weird, crazy, unbelievable yet totally

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Speaker 1: human and ridiculous story. Are you talking about Victor Lustig.

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Speaker 1: I am Victor Listig born Robert V. Miller. Oh, there's

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Speaker 1: already a plot twist, there is. Yeah, so, um, there's

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Speaker 1: this man, Robert V. Miller. And so we're we're going

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Speaker 1: back to the turn of the most recent century, back

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Speaker 1: to the eighteen and nineteen hundreds. Victor Lustig is uh, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll we'll call him Count Victor Listig, Count Listig, because

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Speaker 1: that's what he called himself. It's not the only thing

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Speaker 1: he called himself, though. This is a man who had

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Speaker 1: twenty two different aliases. He was a criminal mastermind. He

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Speaker 1: was a scam artist, he was a swindler, he was

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Speaker 1: a grifter. He was born Robert V. Miller in a

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Speaker 1: little town called Hostaan a Um and that is at

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Speaker 1: the time of his birth eight that was in the

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Speaker 1: country of Austro Hungary. Uh, now it's the Czech Republic.

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Speaker 1: So the town is sort of near the border of

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Speaker 1: the Czech Republic and Poland. And this was eighteen nineties

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Speaker 1: when Robert V. Miller was born. So he is born

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Speaker 1: I believe January fourth. His real name is Robert. I

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Speaker 1: was not aware that he would accrue so many a

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Speaker 1: k A s. But we know that from a young

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Speaker 1: age he was both highly intelligent and a troublemaker. That's true.

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Speaker 1: So Miller as he was known at the time, when

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Speaker 1: he was nineteen years old, not too much is known

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Speaker 1: about his life beforehand. But when he's in his late teens,

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Speaker 1: he moves to Paris, he gets involved in gambling, he's

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Speaker 1: kind of a roused about, gets involved in the CD

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Speaker 1: Underbelly of the World, which you know is one of

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Speaker 1: the charms of Paris, right, and so uh, he he

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Speaker 1: gets scarred by a lover's boyfriend at the age of nineteen,

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Speaker 1: gets cut across the face with a knife. He's sleeping

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Speaker 1: with someone, who's sleeping with someone, and this and that.

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Speaker 1: So he's already got this sort of disreputable air about him.

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Speaker 1: Things are tough for for young Miller, right, So he

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Speaker 1: decides he needs to make some money. And we're not

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Speaker 1: getting to his big scam just yet, but I want

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Speaker 1: to lay the groundwork for some of his his history

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Speaker 1: of just taking advantage of people for his own benefits.

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Speaker 1: So Robert Miller is looking to make a name for himself,

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Speaker 1: or maybe make twenty two names for himself, or keep

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Speaker 1: his name off the books altogether. But Basically, he's been

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Speaker 1: in in trouble with the authorities in a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different countries for scamming people, robberies, uh, swindles, the sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. So his first big attempt at a at

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Speaker 1: a big plot involves ocean liners. He hops on an

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Speaker 1: ocean liner that's going from the Atlantic ports in France

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Speaker 1: to New York and back. And so basically like he

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Speaker 1: rides back and forth, back and forth, back and forth

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Speaker 1: between France and New York, pretending to be a Broadway producer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this this is when he's only uh, he's he's

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Speaker 1: still in his teens or twenties. So we're talking right around, uh,

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Speaker 1: the time, right before World War One. So he's on

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Speaker 1: board literally saying, I'm I'm a Broadway producer. I have

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Speaker 1: all this money, but I need more to put on

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Speaker 1: a great, big show. And that's when he first adopts

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Speaker 1: the name Victor Listig. Victor Listig gives him the sense

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Speaker 1: of grandeur so much so that he starts calling himself

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Speaker 1: Count Victor Listig. And he meets all these other well,

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Speaker 1: they're not other rich people, they're the rich people. He's

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Speaker 1: the person trying to get their money. He meets these

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Speaker 1: people on board the ship, says, I'm putting together a

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Speaker 1: Broadway show. It's gonna be the best, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be the most beautiful, it's going to be the most

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Speaker 1: fantastic Broadway show ever put on. But I need some investors,

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Speaker 1: So are you on board? Will you give me some money?

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Speaker 1: And basically he he just sells them this whole fantasy

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Speaker 1: and he gets all this money, and uh goes back

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Speaker 1: and forth and back and forth and scams people out

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Speaker 1: of out of money for a show that doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: It's it reminds me a little bit of I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you know this film The Producers by mel

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Speaker 1: Brooks that's nineteen sixties sixties seven. I think about Gene

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Speaker 1: Wilder and Zero Mostel pretend to be producers of a

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Speaker 1: Broadway show to raise money. They basically figure out if

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Speaker 1: you put on a failure of a show, you'll make

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Speaker 1: more money if if the whole thing loses. I don't

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Speaker 1: know that mel Brooks was inspired by the story of

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Speaker 1: Victor Listig wouldn't be surprised. And we should also mention

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Speaker 1: one of the big questions about this early scam, how

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Speaker 1: did he manage to do this? Successfully multiple times without

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Speaker 1: getting caught. I advanced to you that his fluency multiple

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Speaker 1: languages helped because I'm sure that sometimes the people he

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Speaker 1: was conning were entirely French speakers, and then sometimes they

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Speaker 1: might have been entirely German speakers. Yeah, and Listig spoke

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Speaker 1: five languages at least that we know of. So the

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Speaker 1: ability to switch back and forth between languages with fluency,

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Speaker 1: it puts forth this idea of confidence, of power, of authority,

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, if you can, if you can

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Speaker 1: take on a cute accent, maybe, uh, that can sometimes

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Speaker 1: inspire feelings of of warmth, depending on who you're talking to. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: as he's going back and forth across the Atlantic, he's

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Speaker 1: talking to all these people, just scamming them left and

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Speaker 1: right in various languages. But this didn't go on forever, correct,

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Speaker 1: because you said you said you was active at this

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Speaker 1: time directly before World War One, Right, So the First

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Speaker 1: World War kind of interrupts a lot of this transatlantic rigamarole,

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Speaker 1: and he finds himself in trouble in the US and

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Speaker 1: comes back to France on a more permanent basis in

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Speaker 1: and that's when we arrive at the main topic of

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Speaker 1: our story today, and um, I think it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's a good one. It's weird. It's the sort of

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Speaker 1: thing you would think could never happen today because of

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Speaker 1: the prevalence of information, the willingness of people to believe,

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Speaker 1: the skepticism. But I don't know. I think what the

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Speaker 1: shows and and we're about to get to it. But

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Speaker 1: it shows that people are always willing to believe what

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Speaker 1: will benefit them. Yes, yes, I do want to do

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Speaker 1: one brief sidetrack while we're on the way to France.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. Okay. So Lustig also had some American

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Speaker 1: adventures during Prohibition. He went to Missouri. That's right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he went to Missouri and he used another alias, Robert

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Speaker 1: duval I like it, and he used he used this

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Speaker 1: alias to try to run a ranch. So essentially, he

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Speaker 1: offered this bank twenty two thous dollars in liberty bonds

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Speaker 1: and convinced them to exchange an additional ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: of the bonds for cash. They said yes. The money's

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Speaker 1: placed in two identical envelopes and he uses some like

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Speaker 1: stage magic, some sleight of hand to switch the envelopes,

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Speaker 1: make off of the bonds and the cash. He gets

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Speaker 1: arrested in Kansas City, but he manages to talk his

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Speaker 1: way out of the indictment. And that's the thing I

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Speaker 1: find so so so crazy. I mean, it's the sort

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Speaker 1: of thing you think you would never be able to

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Speaker 1: talk to a bank and walk away with both the

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Speaker 1: notes and the cash and everything, and then talk a

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Speaker 1: way out of court. Yeah, it's crazy. How how endearing

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Speaker 1: do you have to be? It's like some sort of crazy,

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Speaker 1: huge version of the you know, the twenty dollar change game,

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Speaker 1: where you I won't go into the details, but you

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Speaker 1: can go up to a cashier and you start quick

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Speaker 1: talking and asking them to make change for one thing

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Speaker 1: after you have a legitimate transaction. Then you get some change,

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Speaker 1: and you change some ones for a ten, and then

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Speaker 1: you switch things around a little bit, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, you've doubled your money and you also got

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Speaker 1: whatever you bought. And here in Atlanta, just decide. Note, folks,

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Speaker 1: we do refer to that as the hasciotas do we?

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Speaker 1: We do know. I'm sorry that you had about that

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Speaker 1: on air, but that's that. The American Adventure is primarily

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Speaker 1: important because it shows how well he was able to

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Speaker 1: handle getting caught because almost anybody else would have gone

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Speaker 1: to jail. That is bank robbery, and it is fraud.

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Speaker 1: But Victor has at this point accumulated quite a range

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Speaker 1: of skills, quite a range of aliases. And as you said, Christopher,

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Speaker 1: in May, he goes back to Paris. He has had

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Speaker 1: a close call in Kansas City. He thinks, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe things are getting a little too hot on this

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Speaker 1: side of the Atlantic. So so what happens when he

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Speaker 1: returns to France. Well, let me ask you, when when

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Speaker 1: you think of Paris, what do you think of when

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Speaker 1: I think of Paris? Well, this is this is a

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Speaker 1: weird story. I don't know if I ever told you

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Speaker 1: I was homeless in Paris for a week? Who wasn't?

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Speaker 1: Who was it at? Yeah? I think of wonderful music.

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Speaker 1: I think of street side cafes. I think of obviously,

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Speaker 1: I think of you, Casey, and I think of the

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Speaker 1: Eiffel Tower. I think that's one of the number one

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Speaker 1: things that people think of when they think of Paris. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: who doesn't. And and uh, you are not, unlike Victor, realistic,

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Speaker 1: at least in this one way, because he thought of

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Speaker 1: the Eiffel Tower as well. You want to go back

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Speaker 1: into a little bit of Eiffel Tower history for for

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Speaker 1: people who may not be familiar with it. I think

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Speaker 1: that's a great idea, man. Okay, so we all know

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Speaker 1: what the Eiffel Tower looks like. It's a huge iron

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Speaker 1: lattice tower. But how did it get there? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: mean so, basically, the Eiffel Tower was constructed over four

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Speaker 1: or five year period in the late eighteen eighties, was

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Speaker 1: put in place for the eighteen eighty nine World's Fair.

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Speaker 1: It was never meant to be permanent. It was meant

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Speaker 1: to just go up for twenty years, kind of act

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Speaker 1: as this big attraction and then come down. But Parisians

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Speaker 1: loved it so much, and other people coming to Paris

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Speaker 1: loved it so much there was an argument made that

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Speaker 1: it should stand as an icon for the city. It

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Speaker 1: was also used as a really tower for telegraphs, so

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Speaker 1: it kind of came in handy too. Okay. But that

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Speaker 1: that sense of impermanence around the tower actually plays into

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Speaker 1: why Victor Listig thought of the Eiffel Tower and how

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Speaker 1: it became involved in his next scam. Oh that's right,

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Speaker 1: because he was I believe when he arrived in France

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Speaker 1: he was reading a newspaper about how the Eiffel Tower

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Speaker 1: was in poor condition and it needed some repairs, and

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Speaker 1: not everyone loved it. Some people in the city saw

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Speaker 1: it as I think the quote I read was an

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Speaker 1: expensive nuisance. Yeah, exactly. You can go either way, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean. The thing about the Eiffel Tower is it

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Speaker 1: completely dominates the landscape. It stands out from all the

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Speaker 1: architecture in Paris. It's almost eighties stories tall, the or

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of eighty stories. It's like three twenty something meters.

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Speaker 1: It's almost a thousand feet tall, if not higher. And

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Speaker 1: most of the buildings around there are you know, three

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Speaker 1: four stories tall at the max um not not iron work.

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Speaker 1: So some people say it's an I saw. Some people

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Speaker 1: say it's magnificent either way. By when he returns to

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Speaker 1: Paris with I should add I uh looked up the

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Speaker 1: exact number. He already had forty arrests under his belt

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Speaker 1: by this time, so he was thirty five years old,

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Speaker 1: so more than one arrest for a year of his life.

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Speaker 1: And that's like two or three arrests for every year

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Speaker 1: of his adult life. That that is a baffling statistic.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for for putting it so succinctly. I guess

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Speaker 1: he wasn't that great then if he was continually getting arrested.

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Speaker 1: But I have a proposition for you, Christopher. I propose

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Speaker 1: that we call in one of our favorite segments to

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Speaker 1: learn a little bit about France. Let's do it all, right, Hey, Casey,

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Speaker 1: hey Ben, how's it going doing doing pretty well? As

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Speaker 1: we said at the top, you have returned from your

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Speaker 1: double life France, and we wanted to ask you a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how French people see the Eiffel Tower today.

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Speaker 1: That's an interesting topic, you know, it is. It is

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Speaker 1: very touristy. It is very much like even even me

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Speaker 1: having been there I think eight times in as many

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Speaker 1: years um. This past trip where I was there for

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Speaker 1: two weeks, I did not go visit the Eiffel Tower.

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Speaker 1: I didn't hang out on the Shampa Mars. I didn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, go to the Trocadero. I didn't really have

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Speaker 1: much uh involvement with the Eiffel Tower in general, other

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Speaker 1: than I could see it from the balcony of my airbnb.

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Speaker 1: So you know, as you guys were mentioning, the height

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Speaker 1: of the buildings in Paris is something that is kind

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Speaker 1: of strictly regulated, and it does ensure that the architecture

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Speaker 1: remains fairly uniform, that certain buildings like the Eiffel Tower,

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Speaker 1: or like the Tour Mont parnass or like the Arct

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Speaker 1: de Triomph, etcetera, remain visible through large parts of the city,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of you know, you're you're always catching

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Speaker 1: glimpses of the Eiffel Tower throughout your day, which is

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Speaker 1: really really nice, and Casey correct me if I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: But that's that's partially due to preference and tradition, but

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Speaker 1: also the just the simple geography and makeup of the

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Speaker 1: land in Paris itself. Like you've got these big sort

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Speaker 1: of modern looking business towers over in La de France.

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Speaker 1: But yes, everything else, you know, the French have not

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Speaker 1: had this tradition of tearing down old buildings. And it's

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Speaker 1: located on somewhat wet ground near the same river, so

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Speaker 1: you can't build sixties story skyscrapers. Yeah, which you know

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Speaker 1: is a is a very happy accident, I think, because

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Speaker 1: Paris does have a very consistent architectural style, although it

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Speaker 1: has been transformed quite a bit within the last maybe

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Speaker 1: couple hundred years. UM Houseman in the nineteenth century, demolished

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Speaker 1: a lot of the old Paris and created a lot

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Speaker 1: of the grand boulevards that we know today, which were

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Speaker 1: useful for instance, uh, moving large numbers of troops in

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Speaker 1: and out of the city, that kind of thing. But

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Speaker 1: he had he had a very very strict requirement in

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Speaker 1: terms of keeping the style very consistent, keeping things very

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Speaker 1: close to the curb, always having shops on the ground

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Speaker 1: floor and then living space in the floors above that.

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Speaker 1: That gives the city a very coherent, cohesive feel, as

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Speaker 1: well as buildings not terminating in a sharp corner but

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Speaker 1: instead kind of in a flat, outward facing corner. That

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Speaker 1: essentially keeps the buildings again feeling more open and inviting

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Speaker 1: and just keeping the street life very virant and alive.

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Speaker 1: I have a question for you, casey okay, what do

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Speaker 1: you have an alias when you're in France? No, um

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Speaker 1: other than kase you know that that would be it's

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Speaker 1: just kind of the frenchified monsieur monsieur case All right,

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Speaker 1: Well that has been cause on the case east wildly

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Speaker 1: d Q Yeah, perfect, perfect. So this gives us a

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Speaker 1: sense of just how iconic the building is today and

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Speaker 1: back in Lustig's time, right right, and we're talking, you know,

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Speaker 1: ish um, we're back in the seventh Arondissement. And again

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Speaker 1: this this structure was meant to last about twenty years,

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Speaker 1: so it was built in eighteen eighty nine. The plan

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Speaker 1: was initially let's take it down around nine or so,

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Speaker 1: oh no nine. Yeah, so it's already almost doubled its

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Speaker 1: lifetime and it's getting expensive. The city is complaining, saying

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Speaker 1: we don't have the money for the upkeep. It's just

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Speaker 1: really a pain in the French. But this, this is

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Speaker 1: where Lustig sees an opportunity and he says, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I bet that I could just forge some credentials and

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Speaker 1: appoint myself to a position in the local government. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: he actually hires a forger. I mean, this is It's

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Speaker 1: the thing about Listig is he always thought out his

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Speaker 1: scams to the nth degree. This wasn't just some sort

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Speaker 1: of fly by night operation. And he hires a forger.

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Speaker 1: He comes up with these credentials and he presents himself

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Speaker 1: as a the deputy director general of this or that.

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Speaker 1: I think it's something like the Postal Service, the Ministry

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Speaker 1: of Post and Telegraphs exactly. So He takes advantage of

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Speaker 1: the news that the city is unhappy with the structure.

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Speaker 1: The Eiffel Tower itself weighs more than ten thousand tons.

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Speaker 1: He approaches scrap metal dealers in Paris, the five most prestigious,

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Speaker 1: the five with the biggest operation, and he says, Mr

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Speaker 1: scrap metal dealer, my name is Victor Listig. I'm the

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Speaker 1: Deputy director General. We want to sell you the Eiffel Tower.

365
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Speaker 1: We want to scrap the Eiffel Tower. We want to

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Speaker 1: set you seven thousand tons of it. However, let's meet

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Speaker 1: at this hotel in secret, because we can't let work

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Speaker 1: get out about this. So Listig in fights five different

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Speaker 1: representatives of scrap metal dealerships to this hotel and asks

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Speaker 1: them to bid to fight amongst themselves to offer the

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Speaker 1: most money for seven thousand tons of metal, claiming that

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Speaker 1: the Eiffel Tower is going to be scrapped, and how

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Speaker 1: how did it work out well for whom? Ben for

374
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Speaker 1: whom it worked out really well for Victor Listig. So

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Speaker 1: he's got these five guys in the hotel. He says,

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Speaker 1: all right, guys, you've got to keep this deal quiet

377
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Speaker 1: because the government doesn't want word to get out so

378
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Speaker 1: I want you to think about it, see what you

379
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Speaker 1: can do with a seven thousand tons of scrap metal,

380
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Speaker 1: and come back to me with an offer. But before

381
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Speaker 1: the meeting was over, he had identified who he wanted

382
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Speaker 1: to award the bid to his mark. Exactly. It was

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Speaker 1: a guy named Andre Poissan, and Listig identified Poissan as

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Speaker 1: kind of an up and summer. He was one of

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Speaker 1: the least successful of the group, and he had low

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Speaker 1: self esteem. Exactly. Yeah, So list I thought this guy

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Speaker 1: is gonna be really desperate to secure this bid. He

388
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: thought Poissant would really want to make a name for

389
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Speaker 1: himself with this deal and secure his place in the

390
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 1: business world because he felt intimidated by all these other

391
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: scrap metal dealers who are relatively well established. There's this

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00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,479
Speaker 1: is where we see some of the art of the

393
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: con or the craft of psychological manipulation come into play.

394
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Speaker 1: Because I believe what happens is after that meeting with

395
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Speaker 1: the five people, where he's buttering them up, and he

396
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: where he identifies Andrea's his mark. He meets with Andre

397
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Speaker 1: the next day and Andrea says, you know, I slept

398
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: on it. I'm having a couple of doubts. I don't

399
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: know if this is the best thing, because this is

400
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,479
Speaker 1: a huge project, this is a lot of money, and

401
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: Lustig gives him a very compelling empathy, building absolutely fake

402
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,239
Speaker 1: story about you know, hey, just between you and me, Like,

403
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: I get it. You're an up and comer. I'm a

404
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: government employee. I don't get paid that much. Times are

405
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 1: tough all around, and I really you know, Andrea, you

406
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: get it. You and I are kind of similar. So

407
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: how about this, I will guarantee you the contract just

408
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: between us. Forget about those other four guys. If you

409
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: can give me just a little, you know, give me

410
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: a big give me a little bit of something on

411
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: the side, grease the wheels of bureaucracy. Yeah. So Listing

412
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: is genius in adding layer upon layer of this scam.

413
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 1: He builds confidence not just by putting forth this story,

414
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: but by roping Andrea poissan In on that that they're

415
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: in this together, you know. So, and it goes through,

416
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: It goes through. So not only does Andrea Possan give

417
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: Listig the money for for the Eiffel Tower, he also

418
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: bribes him to do it right. Yes, so he's he's

419
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: paying the bribe plus the deal the price that they

420
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: agree on and what happened his next So then Listick says,

421
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: I've got all this money and I'm splitting town. He

422
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: goes back to Austria and uh, he just hangs out.

423
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Speaker 1: He takes up with someone someone else. The details on

424
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: this or a little sketchy. I couldn't really find out

425
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: um in my research who it was, but reports said

426
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: that he swindled someone else to let him stay with them.

427
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: And while he's hanging out in Austria with all this money,

428
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: he keeps his eye on the French newspapers just to

429
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: see if he's been discovered, because he's betting on the

430
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 1: fact that that Andre would be so ashamed that he

431
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: wouldn't report the theft, right right, And we do know

432
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: a little bit of what happens to the unfortunate Andrea here.

433
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: After loose date skips town, Andre, who is out a

434
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: significant sum of money, goes to the government officials to

435
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: follow up on the deal, at which point they say,

436
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: what who are you talking about? You know, maybe they

437
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: were empathetic and said, I'm very sorry this happened to you,

438
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: but can you imagine that just the utter shame and

439
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: embarrassment there, That's that's what Victor. Would he played this

440
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: guy like a cello? You know? Yeah? And that's when

441
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: I like the shame is such a powerful, powerful emotion

442
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: when you're trying to get someone else to do what

443
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: you want. Yes, And so I've heard, I've heard, I

444
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: don't know from Oh you're a dangerous man. What's your

445
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: real name? After you know, during this episode, I am

446
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: now suspecting everybody of having a different alias, at least

447
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: one or two. Right, I have a couple. I have

448
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: a couple. I had to retire. One had to retire,

449
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: Chris from Boston because one day in Atlanta, someone who

450
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: knew me as Chris from Boston found me and luckily

451
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: I was with some good friends of mine who helped

452
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: me out and backed me up when I went back

453
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: to the table at the restaurant we're at and it

454
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 1: was like, guys, look, there might be someone here who

455
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: thinks my name is Chris. So let's just go along

456
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: with that, and if you do, the next round of

457
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: drinks is on me. So so if you're listening to this,

458
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: I hope you're having I hope you're having a great time.

459
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: Chris from Boston never did any shady criminal acts, though

460
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: Christ from Boston is not a con man, It's just

461
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: not in his character. But Lustig is an inveterate con

462
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: then an irredeemable con artist, and he clearly doesn't feel

463
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: too broken up about causing such a financial disaster. No, no,

464
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: not at all. He doesn't feel broken up. He feels emboldened.

465
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: In fact, the man who sold the Eiffel Tower for

466
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: scrap metal goes back to France, goes right back to

467
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: Paris and sells it a second time. Right, yeah, this

468
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: is crazy. The same thing. He goes and does it again. Uh,

469
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: I will say this time not quite so successfully, right,

470
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: because he he was correct in his gamble, in his

471
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: original assumption that the story would not be widely reported,

472
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: and if the news had made it to the papers,

473
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: we can say that he would not have attempted this

474
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: a second time. I don't think so. I mean, the

475
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: guy is clever, he's he may have been arrested forty times,

476
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: but he's also gotten away at least that many, right,

477
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: So he he doesn't even wait that long, you know,

478
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: He just I guess, waits until he runs out of cash, yeah,

479
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: and just needs some more and says, well, let me

480
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: go sell the Eiffel Tower again. Uh. But he so

481
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: he goes back to Paris. He gets five more guys together,

482
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: pitches them the idea says, I, you want to buy this.

483
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: See this big hunk a junk over here. Uh you

484
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: want to you want to buy it because you need

485
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: the scrap metal. Uh. This time, however, there's someone who's

486
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: suspicious of of the deal, and they go to the

487
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: police right away and um, and Victor Lestig does not succeed,

488
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: but he does succeed in in skipping town once again. Yes,

489
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: and this time he goes to the United States. He

490
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: goes back. I guess the heat from Kansas City is dissipated. Well,

491
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: the U s is a big place, right, you know,

492
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of places you can go. The myth

493
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: of the American West and other parts of America is

494
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: that you can reinvent yourself, especially in this pre internet,

495
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: pre telephone day. You can just present yourself as someone new.

496
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: You can present yourself as someone successful, as a count,

497
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: as a as a salesman of mystery boxes. Ah, yes,

498
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: Romanian box, Romanian boxes, yeah, after them. You know, relative success.

499
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: The first time around of the sale of the Eiffel

500
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: Tower and the lack of success. The second time list,

501
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: it goes to the US and he finds himself in Texas.

502
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: He sells something called a Romanian box. Are you m

503
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: a in I A N? I sure am sorry? So yeah?

504
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: So so what is the Romanian box? I am so

505
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: glad you asked Christopher. Essentially is a money box. That's

506
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: how he would present it. The Count, because he's Count

507
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: lu Stick again, would whine and dine and befriend Americans.

508
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: And then when people would say, hey, you know, you're

509
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: an interesting guy. What what is it that you do, Count?

510
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: What what's your line of work? What's your line of business?

511
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: And essentially, in a polite way, they were trying to ask,

512
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: how are you so wealthy? And then with the utmost secrecy,

513
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: with a just between us and the lamp post kind

514
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: of confidence, the Count would pull out this box. It's

515
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: literal box, and it's a money box that looks fantastic.

516
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: It's built out of mahogany. It's about the size of

517
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: a steamer trunk. And he would say, let me show

518
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: you how this works. And the Mark would hand him

519
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: a bill, usually asked for a hundred dollar bill, and

520
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: then he would put the bill into the machine, wait

521
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: a few hours is for quote unquote chemical processing. And

522
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: then when the people came back they went and get dinner,

523
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: lunch or something. Two bills would be there to bills,

524
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: and so Lustig would say that this box pays for itself.

525
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: What it really is is a fake contraption. Yeah, there's

526
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: there's no way you can have a It's basically a counterfeit,

527
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: counterfeiting machine. Right, So he's telling people, I have this

528
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: thing that can make fake money for you, that can

529
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: duplicate your dollar, double your money in six hours or less.

530
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: And it doesn't even work. It's a scam of a scam.

531
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: It's a scale double scam. Yeah, which you know a

532
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: lot of cons work that way because they prey on um, ambition,

533
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: greed insecurity, you know what I mean. Well, and that's

534
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: the sort of thing. So even if he were caught,

535
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: even if someone confronted him and said, hey man, this

536
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: money box you sold me doesn't work as as you

537
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: as you said it would, they're not going to go

538
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: to the police because then it would be admitting two

539
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: attempting to counterfeit. Yeah. And here's here's the thing. This

540
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: is the beautiful part of this Lou Stick's friends will

541
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 1: see this and they'll say, oh man, they're convinced, you know,

542
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: because he's been so reluctant and secretive about it. They say,

543
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: will you sell this to me? You name your price, anything,

544
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: And the count is very reluctant. It's been in my

545
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: family for a while. It's I don't know. I mean,

546
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: I like you, but this is a big decision for me.

547
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: And then after cajoling and raising the price sky high,

548
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: Lustig would eventually agree to sell it, sometimes for up

549
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: to thirty thousand dollars. You can read a pretty good

550
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: description of some of these adventures in various articles in

551
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian who They seem to have a fascination with

552
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: loose Stick. But after he sold it, here's the thing,

553
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: he didn't skip down right away. They did some more

554
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 1: demonstrations so you can show them how it worked. There

555
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: are still is hidden in the machine, obviously. Yeah, well,

556
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: there are a variety of bills hidden in the machine.

557
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: And so Lustig again, it's it's his mastery of manipulation.

558
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,479
Speaker 1: There were different kinds of money hidden in the machine,

559
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: and he would use his power of persuasion to convince

560
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: the person giving him the money to give him the

561
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: right kind of money that he could then slip out

562
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: a duplicate of. But the last time that Lusti sells

563
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: the Romanian mystery box, Uh, it's not even called a

564
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: mystery I'm just calling it a mystery box, the Romanian box.

565
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: It's in Texas, and his purchaser is a sheriff, right,

566
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: and the sheriff does not take being built. No, he's

567
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: out thousands of dollars. So in the past Lustig had

568
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: scammed people, left town and was generally kind of off

569
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: Scott Free, Indiana, Nebraska, Texas, Chicago. But this sheriff follows

570
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: Lustig across the country. He tracks him down finally in

571
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: I Believe in Chicago, and again this is it's about

572
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: to be listed gets away with it one more time

573
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: because the sheriff confronts Listick. He says, Man, you rip

574
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: me off. This thing is a hoax. It does not

575
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: make money. I need my tens of thousands of dollars

576
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: back or I don't know what I'm gonna do, to

577
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: which Lustig replies, Oh, that's so terrible that that happened.

578
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: Are you sure you were working the box correctly? Oh? Man,

579
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: and it works. He he convinces the sheriff, that the

580
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: sheriff was the one not operating the contraption properly. He

581
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: even as a show of good faith, gives him some

582
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: of the money back to say, hey, look, I'm promised,

583
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: I'm not scamming you. Here, take a take a portion

584
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: of the money back as good faith. Go back to Texas.

585
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: Take the box with you, figure out how to work

586
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: it on your own. You must be the one making

587
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: a mistake. And he continues because look, in addition to

588
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: oys getting away with things, Lustig never learns his lesson,

589
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: and he starts messing with some very dangerous characters. Sometime

590
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: before this is a speculative story, an alleged story, we

591
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: don't we don't have a lot of primary sources on this.

592
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: But sometime before the story is that he even attempted

593
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: to pull a scam on al Capone in Chicago. Did

594
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: you hear about that? I did? And it's it's uh.

595
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: So he had been in Chicago for a while, he

596
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: had kind of built up his name. He was getting

597
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: into the deep counterfeiting business, so not just this sort

598
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: of confidence scam, but legitimate counterfeiting of cash. And so

599
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: he's kind of operating in the same circles as Capone.

600
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: He knows of Capone, Compone doesn't quite know of him.

601
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: But Listig wants to gain his confidence. Right, So the

602
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: story is this Lustig convinced, and he's still the count loose.

603
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: Do you think he's talking with an accent? Of course

604
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 1: he has to, man, it would be such a missed opportunity.

605
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 1: If you are going to put a fake aristocratic title

606
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 1: in front of your name, then you must have an accent. Yeah,

607
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 1: that's true, because that's if he wants. If he wants

608
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: to appear to be um, a wealthy, mysterious European of

609
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: noble blood, then he has to conform to the American

610
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: stereotype of that, which requires an accent. I think probably

611
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: if you put on that that accent, then you you

612
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: give yourself the benefit of pretending there are things you

613
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: don't understand. You know that that you don't quite understand

614
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: the intricacies of American English. So maybe if someone thinks

615
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: you insulted them, you could just say, I don't know,

616
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: I'm s yes, i I'm not understand. He's how you'll

617
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: say a scam exactly. Look, we are choosing to imagine

618
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: that he has an accent, and uh, I would like

619
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: to I'd like to hear everyone's guess as to what

620
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: sort of accent he had. I thought yours was really good. Christopher. Also,

621
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: you have traveled the world and heard many accents, so

622
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: I will defer to your speculation here. Anyway, point being lustick,

623
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: goes to Cappone. The Count goes to Capone and convinces

624
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: him that if al Capone gives him fifty thou dollars,

625
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: he will double the money for Capone in sixty days

626
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: with his newest adventures, newest discovery. And he knew that

627
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: Capone was a very, very dangerous man, so once he

628
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: got the money, he just let it sit in a bank.

629
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: He didn't touch it. He let us sit in a

630
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: bank for fifty nine days. On the fifty ninth day,

631
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: he comes back to out Cappone himself and says, look,

632
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: Mr Capone, the deal fell through. I'm very sorry, but

633
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: I feel so bad about this because I made you

634
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: a sincere promise, and I feel so bad about this

635
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: that I will repay the money and lost. And that's

636
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: not the only thing. He says to capon Right again,

637
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: this is it's about gaining confidence, it's about bringing people

638
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: over to your side. So not only is he involving

639
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: Capone from the get go in this complicity in the

640
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: scam that he was planning to do. The thing is

641
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: there was never a scam planned, right, Listig just wanted

642
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: to get Capone on his side. So he says, hey,

643
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: give me fifty grand, which fifty grands a lot of

644
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: money today. Back then way more money. Yes, we have

645
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: our handy dandy inflation calculator. Around that period of time,

646
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars in today's money would be equal to

647
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: around nine hundred and forty thousand dollars. That's amazing. Can

648
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: you imagine going to someone and saying, hey, if you

649
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 1: could just let me borrow a million dollars too much?

650
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: Just two months? Just two months, I will give you.

651
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: I'll let me double your money. And UH and Capone.

652
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: I don't know why if it was this guy's UH

653
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: is wherewithal? But but he said yeah, but Listig did

654
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: nothing with it, and he he planned to do nothing

655
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: with it. So he went back. He said, I'm really

656
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: sorry it didn't work out, but here's your money back,

657
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,479
Speaker 1: all of it, because I I lost everything. I will

658
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: pay you back out of my own pocket. Yeah, I

659
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: I don't have I've lost my clothes, I've lost my house.

660
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: But I'm an honest guy. Yeah, and this works like

661
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: a charm. According to the story, Capone is so impressed,

662
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: and he's like, hey, this guy's gotta he's got some integrity,

663
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like a you know, he's

664
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: got a little bit of spine, he's got a lot

665
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: of gold. Tell you what you don't you don't have

666
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: to pay me back all the money. You seem like

667
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: an honest fellow. And because Capone is so built, he

668
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: only accepts a certain amount. He doesn't accept the full

669
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: fifty grand back. Right, It's like he The reports vary,

670
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: but we know that Capone left him with some extrac

671
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: at least five thousand dollars, So that that's the whole scame.

672
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: So Listing borrowed almost in today's money, a million dollars

673
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: from al Capone, did nothing with it, gave it back

674
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: to pretend to be honest, gained his confidence, gained his trust,

675
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: gained a reputation as a good guy in al Capone's eyes,

676
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: and then also got almost a hundred thousand dollars just

677
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: just for hey, you know which is it's brilliant, it's effective.

678
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 1: But I think this sort of success leads to loose

679
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: Stig's ultimate downfall. You know, I think some criminals have

680
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: the idea that they'll get to a certain point and

681
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: then they're they're out, you know, they quit the life,

682
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,479
Speaker 1: one last con. Yeah, for Lostig, the con was the life.

683
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: There was no end to this, and so he was

684
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: actually pursued at this point. You know, he's deep in

685
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: the counterfeiting game. Like we mentioned earlier, he's being pursued

686
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: by a Secret Service agent, Peter Rubino. And this is

687
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: back when the secrets you know. Today, I think a

688
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: lot of people think of a Secret Service in its

689
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: most prominent role in the public eye now is protecting

690
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,479
Speaker 1: the life of the President of the United States and all,

691
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: you know, the the people around that office. But its

692
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: origins are in fighting counterfeiting. Yeah, absolutely, its origins are

693
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: fighting counterfeiting. In the him is that Loostig was just

694
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 1: becoming too prominent. He teamed up with a Nebraska chemist,

695
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: a guy named Tom Shaw, and they created like a

696
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: soup to nuts counterfeiting operation plates, paper ink everything. Yeah,

697
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: they were. They were so good that the Secret Service

698
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: identified them as the best counterfeiters in the country that

699
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: they called these bills that they were turning out the

700
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: Shawl Stig notes. Yeah, yeah, and this Loo Stig money

701
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 1: was showing up everywhere from New Orleans to Chicago. And

702
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: there's a question about whether the Secret Service would have

703
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: actually caught him because he was aware it was like

704
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: in today's money, it's it was like one point four

705
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: million dollars fake cash in the country. So it was

706
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: altering to a degree the economy. Yeah, there was a

707
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: fear that it would imbalance world world faith in the

708
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: American dollar because there was so much fake U S

709
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: money out there right right, And he would have this

710
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: is our Scooby Doo moment. He would have gotten away

711
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: with it too, if it wasn't for his girlfriend. Well, yeah,

712
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: it goes back, right, like that's that's how this thing started.

713
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: So he got he got cut across the face when

714
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: he was a teenager because he was having a romance

715
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: with someone else's romance. And you know, now we're now

716
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: we're in the thirties and the same thing happened again, right,

717
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: because he was having an affair with his friend's mistress.

718
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: Is that right, I believe so? Right, So he so

719
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: he had a lady friend who was not an official

720
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: wife or anything like that, and then his friend, who

721
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: was married, had a romantic entanglement on the side that

722
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: Lustig was then involved with that woman, and then the

723
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: woman he was seeing got mad and called the cops. Yeah,

724
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: it turned him in, And so with her assistance, the

725
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: Secret Service is able to catch Lustig in in a

726
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: pretty anti clament actic way. I think he's just walking

727
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: down Broadway on the Upper West Side in New York

728
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: and the Secret Service comes up and apprehends him, and

729
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: even they can't help but admire him a little bit.

730
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: One Secret Service agent is observing the fact that Lustig

731
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: is cool as a cucumber. He's dressed very nicely, dressed

732
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: to the nines, he has a suitcase of very nice clothes,

733
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: and the Secret Service guy has to kind of just

734
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 1: reluctantly shake his head and go, you're the smoothest con

735
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: man that ever lived, to which Lustig was probably like

736
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: a uh self deprecating shrug and a thank you, because

737
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: that's how he talked to people. Oh, do you want

738
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: to do his commandments? Yeah, well, I thought this would

739
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: be the perfect time before we get to to Lustig's

740
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: final fate you know, because you did bring this up.

741
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: Um okay, spoiler alert. Lustig goes to prison at some

742
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: point in his life, right right, But while in prison

743
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: for his most ultimate stint, he decides to write the

744
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: ten rules of a of a good con Right. There's

745
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: ten commandments and um, yeah, and they refer to just

746
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: what you said that he was the coolest cucumber out there.

747
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: You want to go through them? Yeah, let's do it.

748
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: So the set of instructions known as the Ten Commandments

749
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: for conment and and for those of you out there listening,

750
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: these are not legal advice. Yes, this is not legal

751
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 1: advice from Casey Christopher Nolan myself. These are observations. But

752
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, I think they're pretty good. Why don't we

753
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: just why don't we round robin and will alternate? How

754
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 1: about that? Yeah? And let me if you let me

755
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: know if you agree with these. Yeah. Yeah, First, be

756
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: a patient listener. It is this not fast talking that

757
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: gets the con man his cups. You know, if if

758
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: you listen, you let the other person open up to you.

759
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: There's that innate sense of connection between two people and uh,

760
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: and that you immediately formed this bond and All you

761
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: have to do is listen, be compassionate, nod your head,

762
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: look him in the eye. I think it works. Number

763
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: two never look bored. Would she is huge And this

764
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: is this is from the time before everybody had a

765
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: smartphone sitting around. You know. The idea is to be

766
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: actively engaged with people. That means the eye contact. That

767
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: probably means a little bit of mirroring their physicality, right,

768
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,959
Speaker 1: and you would be you'd be surprised how much it works.

769
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: I agree with that one. The third one is the

770
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: third one is wait for the other person to reveal

771
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: any political opinions and then agree with them. It's great.

772
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: I like it, which is which is kind of a

773
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: spycraft thing too. Yeah, it's the sort of politics. It's

774
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: gone back and forth. And this episode is appearing in

775
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: your your subscription feed on election day here in the

776
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: United States for the midterm elections. So maybe you've recognized

777
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: this in your personal life. If you go out and

778
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: you talk to someone, if you find that politically you

779
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: guys kind of jibe. There's that again, it's an immediate connection,

780
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. And then he has a another observation about

781
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: how to react to people's opinions, let the other person

782
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: reveal religious views, then have the same views. I feel

783
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: like I've done this on dates. Well, I mean this

784
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: is what like, it's it's your yes ending an improv right,

785
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: you're just building off the other person. You build a

786
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: story together, and then you're in that existence together. And

787
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: here's this one I think is a little bit more

788
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 1: of a gambit. This next one it is hint at

789
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: sex talk speaking of dates, but don't follow it up

790
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: unless the other person shows a strong interest. Yeah. Again,

791
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: I think it's the sort of thing where you can

792
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: talk around an issue and you take your cues from

793
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: the other person. So you bring up you know, you

794
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: could say, oh, yeah, last weekend, I was in Cleveland,

795
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 1: and let me tell you the girls there are something else.

796
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: And then if the other person seems intrigued, you know,

797
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: kind of what wavelength they're on, If they seem a

798
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: little like, uh, that's not really the kind of thing

799
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: I talk about, then you might follow up with and

800
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: I'm glad I didn't go out with them, because boy,

801
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: that is not my scene. You know. Yeah, yeah, you're

802
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: you're building that rapport. I just feel like that takes

803
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: another level of skill to find the right hint, because

804
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: all of these are about attempting to create rapport, and

805
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: we should say, I mean this is where the twenties,

806
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: the thirties pretty much he's only dealing with man. So

807
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: this is this is there's that kind of like boys

808
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: room locker room talk, uh, sort of sort of atmosphere,

809
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: And how are you going to build confidence with other

810
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: people who you want to scam? In the next five

811
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: commandments are things that lu Stick believes you should never do.

812
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: Correct number six, Never discuss illness unless some special concern

813
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 1: is shown. So what do you what do you think

814
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: that means? I think I think it's probably a time

815
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: when private lives are a little more private. I also

816
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: think there's a sense that, um, you know, illnesses it

817
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: was a much more mysteriou thing eight years ago, could

818
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 1: show weakness perhaps. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too, because

819
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: at this time, you know, disabilities were still largely vilified,

820
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: and an illness could make you undesirable, it might be contagious,

821
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: as you said, it might make you weak. Uh. He

822
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: also said, to your point about private lives, never pry

823
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: into a person's personal circumstances. Parentheses, They'll tell you all eventually. Yeah. Again,

824
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: it's it's letting your mark open up to you, right,

825
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: following the lead um and after that again number eight,

826
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: never boast. Just let your importance be quietly obvious. This

827
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: is crucial most of the time. If you see someone

828
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: who has great influence or power or importance, they're not

829
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: going around spouting their accolades. They don't have to. If

830
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: that's the difference between you know, old money and new money, right, yes,

831
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: that's what people say, right. Old money will be much

832
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 1: more subtle, right, and new money is like what else

833
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: can we put gold on? So this this one, I

834
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: think never boasting. I think this remains incredibly important today,

835
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: not just in cons He has another one, never be untidy.

836
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah good, Yeah, that makes sense. You know you you

837
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: want to be respectable, you want to gain people's trust. Look,

838
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: look nice. Finally, I'm gonna give listeners a chance to

839
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: think about what you think the last the last commandment

840
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: might be what you should do, what you shouldn't do?

841
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: Are you thinking? Are you thinking, casey? Can we get

842
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: a little bit of thinking music? And number ten is

843
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: never get drunk. Never get drunk. That's it, never get drunk.

844
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: And it makes sense because you will not be in

845
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: full control of your faculties. You need to be a

846
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,439
Speaker 1: hundred percent engaged with the people you are trying to swindle. Yeah.

847
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: I would probably guess though, that there's a subset to

848
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 1: that rule. Maybe it's in one of the impendices or something.

849
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: But never get drunk, but try to get the other

850
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: person drunk. Maybe right, you apply them with a couple

851
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: of Vodkas and drink water on your own, I don't know,

852
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: or have a have a cocktail that is always just

853
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: like halfway empty half people. Yeah, and I think those

854
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: are those are pretty good and it's surprising how simplistic

855
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: they are. I would argue that a lot of these

856
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: rules aren't just applicable to trying to scam people. They're

857
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 1: pretty good in most things in life, some of them.

858
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: Some of them, well, I think be a patient listener,

859
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:51,479
Speaker 1: be engaged, and avoiding being messy and drunk. I think

860
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: those four at least are just great advice. Well, I mean,

861
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: so these are all great things to uh, you know,

862
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 1: if you want to comport yourself as an empathetic, normal

863
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 1: human being and if your goal is to make connections

864
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: with other people, they're great. If your goal is to

865
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:06,959
Speaker 1: take advantage of people, get their money and do whatever

866
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: you want with it. I guess they're also great too,

867
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: and just blindly agreeing with someone's opinions about things that

868
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: are very important to them. I totally agree with you, No,

869
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: I do. No, I agree with you on everything. Then

870
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: I agree with you on everything, Christopher. But despite our

871
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: I guess reluctant admiration of Lustig's techniques, not everybody agreed

872
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: with his methods, and law enforcement continued to hunt him. Now,

873
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: after he was arrested by the Secret Service, he did

874
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: manage to escape prison for a moment. I think not

875
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: through some clever scheme. I think he just literally used

876
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: bed sheets. Right. Well, so here's the thing. Yeah, so

877
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: Lustig was arrested, he was all set to go to trial.

878
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: The day before his trial, he faked an illness and

879
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: so I think he got a few extra liberties he

880
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,399
Speaker 1: might not otherwise have. He was put in a less

881
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: secure location, and I loved it it. I don't want

882
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: to be the person who admires the criminal, you know.

883
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to be the guy who lifts up

884
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: the person who's taking the money of everyone else. But

885
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: this is pretty amazing. You gotta say. Listing the night

886
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: before his trial, he takes a bedsheet, he ties it

887
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: around the window. He breaks through the bars somehow he

888
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: gets out. As he's hanging from the side of the prison,

889
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, and that the prison is in the city.

890
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: There are some passers by who look up at him,

891
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: and he takes out a rag from his pocket and

892
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: he pretends to be washing the windows. That's I mean,

893
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: that's so not only does he have this great planning,

894
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 1: but he's got great improvisational skills too. It would be

895
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: great to do improv with this guy. Yeah, and uh,

896
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,439
Speaker 1: so he pretends to be washing windows so people don't

897
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: report him. He leaps down from his bed sheet, lands

898
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: in front of some onlookers and passers by by hours,

899
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: and then runs away into the night. Yes, and gets

900
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: away for one month. He is captured in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

901
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: He's not able to talk his way out of these

902
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 1: these charges. He eventually pleads guilty to some of the

903
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: many things he is being hounded for. Yeah, and he

904
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: he ends up all the way on the other side

905
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: of the country. He's in uh in Alcatraz. That's where

906
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: his final days are. Well, no, not his final days

907
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 1: so he ends up in Alcatraz. He's there for a

908
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: stretch of time, like twenty years, I think, yeah, And

909
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: then he's transferred to another prison. I believe it was

910
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 1: in Missouri. I could be wrong about that, and uh,

911
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: and that's where he dies. He just dies of illness. Again.

912
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: It's the sort of anti climactic end for an exciting

913
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: life full of adventure and scam. But I mean, but

914
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: that's that's how life is, right. It doesn't always tie

915
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: up neatly in a bow. It's not a three act play.

916
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: You know, you you die in prison. On his death certificate,

917
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: do you know what it said his career was, I do?

918
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: I do? It listed his occupation as apprentice salesman. So

919
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: he yeah, he passes away of natural causes of pneumonia

920
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: on March nine seven. As you said, Christopher in Springfield, Missouri.

921
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: One of the most infamous apprentice salesman that ever apprenticed.

922
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: And the thing is, though you know he he was

923
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: so infamous, but his name was in the paper, like

924
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: people knew this guy. But you can have this acclaimed

925
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: life of infamy, of crime. And after he died, word

926
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: didn't even get out for two more years because he

927
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: was so forgotten. You know. I think his brother was

928
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: quoted in the New York Times as confirming his death,

929
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: But that wasn't until and that brother went by the

930
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: name Emil Lustig. And let us remember that the guy's

931
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: real name is Robert Miller. A lot of mysteries, a

932
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 1: lot of mysteries, A lot of mysteries here, Christopher, and

933
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, you know, here in ridiculous history,

934
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: we love the story of good con good heist, but

935
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: we do want to be clear that we're not we're

936
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: not endorsing this. Please don't start counterfeiting enough money to

937
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: imbalance the global economy. And despite that, you know, this

938
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: guy is clearly not a good person by any stretch, right,

939
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 1: and perhaps is psychologically compelled to engage in these shenanigans.

940
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: But even even with all that, even with all the

941
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 1: horrible things he's done, I have this reluctant and sincere

942
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: admiration for the guy's abilities. Well, I think no one

943
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: you have admired people's cones right there there where, well

944
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: wherewithal um. But I gotta say it's and and that's

945
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: the thing, you know, I don't like to uh to

946
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: gender something like this when you're talking about, but it

947
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: it does tend to be men who who pull these scams. Um,

948
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: But I would say in the future, you know, there

949
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: are a lot of really cool females, m artists who

950
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: could make for some interesting topics, some fake princesses. That's true. Oh,

951
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: that's true. You're right, Christopher. And also I would advance

952
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: if we're if we're having this discussion about cons and gender,

953
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: I would advance that it is completely possible that we

954
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: only know about more men because they are less skilled

955
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: and more likely to be caught. Oh yeah, so there's

956
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: there's this possibly that Well, in fact, it's it's because

957
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: of one man. There's one man in specific who who

958
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 1: gives this whole genre of criminal the name. So you know,

959
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: do you do you know why it's called a con?

960
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: Why is it called a colin Christopher, it's a condor

961
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: short for confidence, And it goes back to this one

962
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: guy in eighteen forty nine in New York City. William

963
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: Thompson was his name, and he had a scam where

964
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: he would butter people up with with golden words, with

965
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: sweet speech, and he was able to build up other

966
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: people's belief in himself so much that he said, I

967
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: want you to, as a show of confidence in me,

968
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: loan me your golden watch because you believe in me

969
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, because you believe in me so much,

970
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: loan me your golden watch. I'll go away for I'll

971
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: do whatever, and then i'll come back. You'll have your

972
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:17,919
Speaker 1: watch back. And this man stole hundreds of watches this way,

973
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: so much so that he became known as the confidence Man.

974
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: He was written about in in newspapers, in the Times,

975
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: but he became its kind of like folk here, right,

976
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: And that's I think that's the thing that captures people's imagination,

977
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 1: especially here in the US, when there's what's perceived as

978
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: a victimless crime. There's no bodily harm. People just use

979
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: their use their wiles to steal money. So the confidence

980
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: Man ends up in prison and he would give interviews

981
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: to newspapers as the confidence Man, This William William Thompson,

982
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: the confidence Man. And then that became a term for

983
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: this scammer, for the grifter, the con man. That is

984
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: that is such a wonderful story. I had not heard that. Also,

985
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: that sounds like a terrible idea for a scam, but

986
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,919
Speaker 1: I guess it was a different time. I mean, there's yeah,

987
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: sweet talking in the mid nineteenth century, it will get

988
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: you far. I'm pictorate a trans atlantic voice as a

989
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: mark of confidence. Give me all gold and watch i'ld rite.

990
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: And presently I'm gonna decline to do this. No more access,

991
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: no more access, Okay, all right, but I hope that

992
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: you do not decline to join us again in the future.

993
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: Christopher Hassi yotis wherein you and I and Casey and

994
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: Nolan's spirit will be exploring a very very strange story

995
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: about the Oxford English Dictionary. Yeah, if it's cool with you,

996
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: and if it's cool with the ghost of Noel on

997
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: the Cross Continental Divide, I'm gonna stick around this week.

998
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: Is that cool? I for one would love it if

999
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: you do. It's always a delight to have you on

1000
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: the show. And uh no big spoilers, but Noel may

1001
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 1: also make an appearance because he is, like me, a

1002
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: big Christopher Hassi yotis fan and like you too, Casey. Right, absolutely,

1003
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: and we hope that you have enjoyed this episode about

1004
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: one of the most legendary con artists who ever lived.

1005
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: What is your favorite story of a heist or a

1006
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: con Let us know You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,

1007
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: and we'd especially love to invite you to our Facebook

1008
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: community page, Ridiculous Historians, where you can hang out with

1009
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: your fellow listeners and see some I don't know, some

1010
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: top notch historical jokes honestly, yeah, jokes a plenty, wise cracking, sarcasm.

1011
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: What else is on their clever thoughts Thoughts wordplay means

1012
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: you're on there. I don't know if it's a good thing,

1013
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:50,479
Speaker 1: but do do check it out. As always, we want

1014
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: to thank our super producer, Casey Pegram. We'd like to

1015
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: thank my trustee co host Noel Brown. We'd like to

1016
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: thank Alex Williams, who composed our opening track, and Christopher

1017
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: will usually thank you on this show, but now I

1018
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: can say it tuned directly. Thanks for coming, all of

1019
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: you listening at home, at work, in the car, wherever

1020
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 1: you are. You can't see it, but but Ben and

1021
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 1: I are shaking hands quite vigorously right now. Hey, nice

1022
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: watch