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Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Ronald Reagan was a

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Speaker 1: singularly unique man, a conservative who championed a wildly successful revolution,

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Speaker 1: leading to more freedom and less government for the American

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Speaker 1: people and to the fall of communism in the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: while boosting American morale, which had been his three big goals.

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Speaker 1: He was the first president in many years who believed

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Speaker 1: optimism from the oval office had a direct bearing on

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Speaker 1: the affairs of the nation. As a consequence, he left

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Speaker 1: office more popular than when he entered, with a seventy

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Speaker 1: three percent approval reading from the American people. He's beloved

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Speaker 1: even today, as his Presidential Library has visited far more

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Speaker 1: than any other presidential library by more than five million

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Speaker 1: people each year. Here to discuss his new book, The

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Speaker 1: Search for Reagan, The Appealing intellectual Conservatism of Ronald Reagan.

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Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome back my guests and my

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Speaker 1: friend Craig Shirley. He's a New York Times bestselling author,

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Speaker 1: presidential historian, author of eleven books, including six on Reagan,

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Speaker 1: and I would argue that he is far and away

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Speaker 1: the leading student of Ronald Reagan and has been just

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Speaker 1: amazingly effective in trying to help teach the country and

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Speaker 1: the world about an enormously successful president. Craig, welcome and

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining me again on News World.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for the invitation. Newt, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be here now.

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Speaker 1: Both you and your wife Sarene worked for President Reagan

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Speaker 1: and Washington in the nineteen eighties. What was that experience

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Speaker 1: like working with him.

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Speaker 2: We have such fond memories of that time, new It

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Speaker 2: was a healthy in time for both of us.

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Speaker 3: We were committed conservatives.

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Speaker 2: I imagine it probably was the same for young people

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Speaker 2: working at Washington when John Kennedy was president. There was

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Speaker 2: something inspirational about him you look forward to every day.

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Speaker 2: It was a happy, happy time. It was a time

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Speaker 2: of hope. You just loved being in Washington. You loved

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Speaker 2: working for a man who you utterly believed in, and

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Speaker 2: quite honestly, we adored Brownd Reagan. I remember going to

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Speaker 2: many many speeches of Reagan's, and many many Christmas parties

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Speaker 2: and some sea packs and things like that, and it

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Speaker 2: was just such an exciting time.

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Speaker 1: You wrote five books that are sort of traditional histories

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Speaker 1: introducing and explaining the Reagan experience. But then with your

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Speaker 1: new book, you took a very different approach the Search

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Speaker 1: for Reagan the appealing intellectual conservatism of Ronald Reagan. I'm

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Speaker 1: very curious what led you to take this new approach.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for noting that. Two reasons.

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Speaker 2: One is that there's never been a book that really

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Speaker 2: explored Reagan's considerable intellect. You remember Marty, his old research

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Speaker 2: aid assistant. I knew Marty for many years, but in

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Speaker 2: the eighties, I remember having lunch with Marty one time

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Speaker 2: and he told me he estimated Reagan's IQ at being

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Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy five. Now Marty would know he

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Speaker 2: had all sorts of undergraduate and graduate degrees from IVYV

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Speaker 2: schools and from MIT, and so he knew from what

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Speaker 2: he was talking about when he saw an intelligent man.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you and I would both say, an intelligent

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Speaker 2: man is measured by many yardsticks. We know that, but

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Speaker 2: two good ones are the ability to write. And Reagan

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Speaker 2: wrote all the time. He wrote probably more letters as

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Speaker 2: president than any other president before him. He wrote radio scripts,

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Speaker 2: which he gave from the Oval Office every Saturday, and

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Speaker 2: before that, as a presidential candidate, he wrote twice a week.

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Speaker 2: Op eds were syndicated to five hundred newspapers. So he

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Speaker 2: wrote two autobiographies. Of course, that is just the true

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Speaker 2: mark of an intellect. I wanted to explore Reagan's mind

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Speaker 2: but also his compassion, but also as a third reason,

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Speaker 2: was to refute the lies of the left have emerged

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Speaker 2: over the years about Ronald Reagan, about Ronald Reagan, and

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Speaker 2: gaze about Ronald Reagan, and blacks about Ronald Reagan and

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Speaker 2: this issue, that issue, whatever you know. Napoleon once said

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Speaker 2: history as a pack of lies agreed upon, and that

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Speaker 2: there's so many lives about Reagan and gays and Reagan

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Speaker 2: and issue of AIDS. As a matter of fact, AIDS

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Speaker 2: didn't come on to the national political scene. They weren't

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Speaker 2: part of a dialogue until really nineteen eighty one or

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Speaker 2: eighty two. But then it was thought to be afflicting

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Speaker 2: what haitians and hemophiliacs. And it was only a couple

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Speaker 2: of years later that we came to understand its main

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Speaker 2: target was gays, and Reagan by nineteen eighty five was

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Speaker 2: now even talking about it. He was talking about in

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Speaker 2: the State of the Union address in nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 2: and he committed billions of dollars to AIDS research so,

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Speaker 2: and of course this was never mentioned by the left.

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Speaker 2: And of course he spoke out often on AIDS. He

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Speaker 2: committed billions, and also in the post presidency he and

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Speaker 2: Missus Reagan did a lot of fundraising for a pediatric

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Speaker 2: AIDS foundation. So to say that Reagan was insensitive that

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Speaker 2: issue is just a lie. So I wanted to refute

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Speaker 2: the lives of the left while exploring his intellect. I

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Speaker 2: was very, very careful about the title. I had a

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Speaker 2: tussle with the publishers about that. If you're right, you

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Speaker 2: always have a tussle with your publisher I wanted something

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Speaker 2: evocative of Churchill, and of course you remember Martin Gilbert

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Speaker 2: wrote in Search of Churchill, and so I wanted to

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Speaker 2: pick something similar because these are two of the greatest

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Speaker 2: men of the twentieth century, Winston Churchill and Ronald Reagan.

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Speaker 2: I thought Reagan deserved that, and also, of course the subtitle.

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Speaker 2: I also had a tussle with the publishers about I

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Speaker 2: lost to the appealing intellectual conservatism. Well, to my mind,

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Speaker 2: conservatism is intellectualism, so to call it intellectual conservativism is redundant.

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Speaker 2: But that's another fight I lost with the publishers to me.

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Speaker 1: It communicates a case that there is a Conservatism that's learnable,

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Speaker 1: and then Reagan understood it, and Reagan taught it. And

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Speaker 1: as you know, I've always said that our great achievement

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Speaker 1: with the Contract with America and electing the first House

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Speaker 1: Republican majority in forty years, we totally stood on Reagan's shoulders,

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Speaker 1: and it was the act of having studying Reagan. Recently,

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Speaker 1: I wrote a book called marsh the Majority, precisely to

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Speaker 1: try to get back to the current generation of Republicans

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Speaker 1: that they have gone so far away from the things

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Speaker 1: that worked with Reagan and the things that worked with us,

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Speaker 1: that you really need almost a cultural revolution inside the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party to get back to an effective, competent conservatism.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more. The Republicans today are all tactical. It's

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Speaker 2: all about one opsmanship with each other or with the

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Speaker 2: liberal opponents. There's nothing strategic about them. They don't think

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Speaker 2: beyond tomorrow's headliner, tomorrow's SoundBite. They don't think in terms

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Speaker 2: like the Contract did and like Reagan did, about planning

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Speaker 2: not only for the country but for the ideology for

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Speaker 2: the party for the future. Is that what do we

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Speaker 2: stand for and how are we going to achieve it?

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Speaker 2: None of that thinking that goes on inside like that

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Speaker 2: inside the Republican Party today, it's really sad to see.

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Speaker 2: I blame weak politicians and also near to well consultants

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Speaker 2: who are only in it for the money. Look at

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Speaker 2: the case of Nikki Haley. She's all tactical, so there's

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Speaker 2: nothing about her the strategic at all, and she's just

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Speaker 2: staying in because I agree with Trump. I don't think

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Speaker 2: she knows how to get out. But secondly is that

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Speaker 2: it's all personal and she's being pushed by the consultants

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Speaker 2: around her or simply want her to stay as long

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Speaker 2: as possible so they can make as much money as possible.

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Speaker 1: Candidates become a gravy train, and I think they sometimes

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Speaker 1: don't realize all to any of their consultants, they're in

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Speaker 1: fact simply an opportunity to earn a living. The thing

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Speaker 1: about Reagan was Reagan was a cause, and you can

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Speaker 1: argue I think that Trump is a cause. Most candidates

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Speaker 1: are not. Most candidates are just ambitious people who hire

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Speaker 1: other people who hopefully will do something.

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Speaker 2: Now, well, there's the contract, obviously, with the cause. It

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Speaker 2: was about a set of values for a political party

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Speaker 2: to advance to help the country. Reagan was about a

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Speaker 2: set of values to advance to help the country. Trump

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Speaker 2: is about a set of values to advance to help

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Speaker 2: the country.

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Speaker 1: You picked on something in the book, and that is

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Speaker 1: the degree to which Reagan led the Screen Actors Guild

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Speaker 1: strike in the spring of nineteen forty five. His role

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Speaker 1: here is amazing, and I had a sense that this

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Speaker 1: is one of the places Reagan learns to negotiate. Talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that strike and his role as

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Speaker 1: the president of the Screen Actors Guild.

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Speaker 2: It was I'm going to tussle with the studios over

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Speaker 2: compensation for actors. It was over contracts, over how actors

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Speaker 2: were treated. And Reagan said, look, we're calling a strike,

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Speaker 2: and the studios didn't believe him, and finally he did

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Speaker 2: call a strike. The studios held out for a number

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Speaker 2: of months. He finally broke their will and got them

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Speaker 2: to agree to the terms that he wanted for the

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Speaker 2: actors and actresses who are members of the Screen Actors Guild.

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Speaker 2: I think also the more longer lasting incident that happened

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Speaker 2: with him as president of Screen Actress Guild was over

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Speaker 2: the whole issue of compensation residuals for movie actors and actresses.

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Speaker 2: For years, the studios had been making movies and then

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Speaker 2: later TV shows, and they could rebroadcast them with impunity,

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Speaker 2: make a lot of money and not have to compensate

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Speaker 2: the actors and actresses. But one time when they were

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Speaker 2: paid to star in those various TV shows and various movies,

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Speaker 2: so that the studio could broadcast Gone with the Wind

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Speaker 2: a thousand times but only pay Vivian Lee once and

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Speaker 2: Reagan went to the mat with the studios. And today

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Speaker 2: there are many many aging actors and actresses who are

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Speaker 2: living comfortably because of Ronald Reagan.

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Speaker 1: It's ironic that the average conservative who would never think

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Speaker 1: of themselves as pro union elected as president a union.

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Speaker 3: President the first ever.

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Speaker 1: There's a story that it was after one of the

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Speaker 1: Screen Actors Guild meetings the Reagan ends up having a

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Speaker 1: drink with a guy who says, I really am a Stalinist,

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Speaker 1: and when we take over, you're either going to go

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Speaker 1: to jail or we're going to kill you. And Reagan

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Speaker 1: concluded the guy was serious and that that was a

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Speaker 1: moment of conversion to sort of a militant anti communism

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Speaker 1: because we had to realize how serious they were about

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Speaker 1: creating toutilitarian control. I mean, do you think that story

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Speaker 1: is true?

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Speaker 2: I do think it's true. In fact, the actor, I believe,

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Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, the actor was Sterring Hayden, who

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Speaker 2: later was outed as a communist and later had a

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Speaker 2: bit part in the original Godfather movie. He played the

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Speaker 2: corrupt police chief, which seemed kind of appropriate. I believe

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Speaker 2: it was Sterling Hayden who also said about Reagan versus

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Speaker 2: the communists, and the communists it was very, very deliberate

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Speaker 2: new you know, they saw Hollywood as invaluable to gain

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Speaker 2: control of to push a political agenda, and they wanted

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Speaker 2: to gain control of Hollywood to take things over. And

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Speaker 2: in fact, you know, you go back to the forties,

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Speaker 2: two movies that were produced there were just pans to

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Speaker 2: communist Russia. One was called Mission to Moscow and the

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Speaker 2: other was Song of Russia, and they showed the leftward

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Speaker 2: tilt of Hollywood in the post World War two era.

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Speaker 2: So Hollywood was already leaned that way, and the communists

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Speaker 2: wanted to take over the unions and eventually take over

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Speaker 2: the studios to control the message, which was toward a

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Speaker 2: socialist and communist state.

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Speaker 1: So Reagan comes out of that experience as a guy

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Speaker 1: who had voted for Franklin Delano Roosevelt and who as

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Speaker 1: late as nineteen forty eight there was a commercial for

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Speaker 1: both Hubert Humphrey for Senate and President Truman. And then

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Speaker 1: to what extent do you think that it was his

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Speaker 1: wife's impact and her father's impact that helped move Reagan

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Speaker 1: away from the Democrats.

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Speaker 2: I don't think much. Reagan began his historic move to

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Speaker 2: the right much earlier before he met Nancy, while he

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Speaker 2: was still married to Jane Wyman. It was the confiscatory

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Speaker 2: tax policy of the nineteen forties, which had taken up

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Speaker 2: to ninety five percent of his income. And then later

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Speaker 2: he saw the communist provocateurs in Hollywood. He started reading

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Speaker 2: publications and coming to understand the threat of collectivism and

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Speaker 2: the threat to individuality. His historic move the right happened

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Speaker 2: before he met Nancy.

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Speaker 1: So if you go back and you look at this

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Speaker 1: period as Reagan is making the transition, there's a small

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Speaker 1: book by Tom Evans called The Education of Ronald Reagan

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Speaker 1: His Years a General Electric I thought it was very.

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Speaker 3: Revealing in many ways.

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Speaker 2: The ge executive Lemuel Bulwer was an early mentor of

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Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan's.

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Speaker 1: Regular went through this period which maybe you can explain. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: he had a really bad flight in forty five and

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Speaker 1: quit flying.

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Speaker 2: He had two bad flights, and he swore a flying

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Speaker 2: until nineteen sixty six, when his brother practically threw him

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Speaker 2: on an airplane from Los Angeles, San Francisco to go

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Speaker 2: up for a fundraiser for a NAC run for governor.

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Speaker 2: He had two bad flying experiences in the early forties.

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Speaker 2: One was on a plane back from Kettalian Island. They

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Speaker 2: ran into a terrible, terrible electrical storm and barely landed.

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Speaker 2: And then another time when he was on a bond drive.

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Speaker 2: It was on a snowy day and the plane took

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Speaker 2: off in this terrible snowstorm, and again they had lots

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Speaker 2: of trouble and finally landed in Los Angeles. He was

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Speaker 2: a white knuckle flyer after that, I mean, he never

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Speaker 2: flew after that. He swore a flying from nineteen forty

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Speaker 2: five until nineteen sixty six, So for twenty one years

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Speaker 2: he refused to fly an airplane because he had those

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Speaker 2: two bad experiences and he figured that was enough. That

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Speaker 2: was enough for any man.

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Speaker 1: There are two inningdotes, So with that I mean one

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Speaker 1: is that Buwar would give him conservative economic books. And

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Speaker 1: Reagan's going around the country to ge by train, so

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Speaker 1: he has lots of time. He didn't play cards, he

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Speaker 1: didn't hang out in the club car, and he read.

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Speaker 2: Yes, when he was on the ge lecture circuits, he

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Speaker 2: might take the train from Los Angeles to Syracuse, New York,

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Speaker 2: three thousand miles, so it might be a couple of days.

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Speaker 2: But he wouldn't go to as you said, he wouldn't

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Speaker 2: go to the club car. Wasn't a drinker, was a boozer,

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Speaker 2: He wasn't a card player. He would get a private

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Speaker 2: suite with a steamer full of books and just sit

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Speaker 2: and read for several days. He had a good education

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Speaker 2: at Eureka. He had a double major at Eureka. But

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Speaker 2: he was also constantly learning. He was an autodidact in

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Speaker 2: that he was constantly learning, constantly teaching. Reagan's intellect grew

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Speaker 2: after the nineteen forties, when most men reached a point

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Speaker 2: in their life with a fixed ideology by the time

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Speaker 2: they're forty years old. But Reagan really acquired many positions

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Speaker 2: on many issues after he was forty, his position on

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Speaker 2: nuclear war and his position on taxes. His position on

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Speaker 2: so many issues began well after his fortieth birthday.

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Speaker 1: Jerry Pornell was a good friend of mine. Ron great

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Speaker 1: science fiction writer. As an engineer, at helped design the

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Speaker 1: radar guided machine guns at the back of the B

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Speaker 1: fifty two. You got to go to see Reagan when

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Speaker 1: Reagan was governor. He gets an hour schedule to talk

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Speaker 1: about space, and about halfway into the conversation, he stopped

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Speaker 1: and he said, Governor, I don't insult you, but I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: You're so well briefed. I'd like to meet the staff

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Speaker 1: person who did the briefing on space. And Reagan broke

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Speaker 1: up laughing. He said, nobody briefed me. He said, I

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Speaker 1: just read all the time, and I read a lot

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Speaker 1: about space, and Pornell was just blown away. I thought

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Speaker 1: this was so different than the public image.

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Speaker 2: Reagan read five newspapers a day and one nonfiction book

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Speaker 2: a week.

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Speaker 1: There's a story. I hope it's accurate. I was told.

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Speaker 1: You know, Reagan decides to run hires the best consulting

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Speaker 1: firm in California for this governor's race. Spencer and Roberts

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Speaker 1: and they create this big shoe box filled with all

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Speaker 1: these pieces of information because they want to prove he's

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Speaker 1: smart enough to be governor, because this was back when

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Speaker 1: actors were not thought generally to be capable of this.

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Speaker 1: And so he goes to the first town hall meeting,

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Speaker 1: and of course, as a professional actor, he can memorize

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Speaker 1: the entire box in one night. He goes to townhall

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Speaker 1: meeting and the first questions, what are you going to

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Speaker 1: do about Berkeley? Which isn't in the box. He comes

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Speaker 1: back and he says to him, guys, we don't have

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Speaker 1: this in the box. And they said, well, it's not

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Speaker 1: really an issue. And he goes to the second meeting.

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Speaker 1: First question is what are you going to do about

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Speaker 1: those radicals at Berkeley? And he comes back and he

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Speaker 1: says to them, guys, if the voters think it's an issue,

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Speaker 1: it's an issue. And I always thought the wisdom. Very

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Speaker 1: much like Lincoln, Reagan understood that what the public thought

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Speaker 1: mattered more than what the consultant thought.

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Speaker 2: When he was president, Reagan got more letters written to

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Speaker 2: him as president that anybody else did. Each day he

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Speaker 2: would get from his secretaries a number of letters, and

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Speaker 2: Reagan read those every day. That was how we stayed

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Speaker 2: in touch with the American people was by reading the

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Speaker 2: letters from the American people and not listening to the

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Speaker 2: Washington Post or listening to his advisors or consultants, but

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Speaker 2: staying in touch with as many people as possible.

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Speaker 1: One of the great crises of his career that would have,

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Speaker 1: I think, really dramatically weakened somebody who wasn't as strategically

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Speaker 1: smart was running on an anti tax platform and then

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Speaker 1: discovering that the state was virtually bankrupt. And the way

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Speaker 1: he handled that would you describe brilliantly in your book

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Speaker 1: walks through from it, the whole strategic way Reagan thinks

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Speaker 1: things through, and the speed and decisiveness with which he

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Speaker 1: responded to reality.

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Speaker 2: He was elected governor and he found, to his chagrin

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Speaker 2: that everything he said in the campaign was exactly true.

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Speaker 2: Was the California was spending a million dollars day more

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Speaker 2: than it was taking in. It was near to going bankrupt,

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Speaker 2: and he needed to do something. And this is where

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Speaker 2: he didn't compromise his principles, but he did compromise with

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Speaker 2: his political opponents. For instance, Big Daddy Jesse Henru, who

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Speaker 2: is then the most powerful Democrat and Sacramento. They sit

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Speaker 2: down and they went through the budget line by line.

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Speaker 2: They got rid of a lot of wasteful spending. It

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Speaker 2: did require a small tax increase, but it was phased

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Speaker 2: out and as a matter of fact, left the state

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Speaker 2: with the surplus. And Reagan's first instinct and what he

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Speaker 2: did with that surplus was that he gave it back

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Speaker 2: to the California taxpayers. He didn't say, oh, let's go,

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Speaker 2: we've got more money, let's go find a new program

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Speaker 2: to spend it on, or some reason.

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Speaker 3: For the state to keep it.

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Speaker 2: He didn't want the state to keep anything more than

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Speaker 2: it really needed to operate. So he gave something like

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Speaker 2: five hundred million back to the folks of California.

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Speaker 1: There's a story that is standing in concrete against the

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Speaker 1: tax increase, and that he handles it by going to

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Speaker 1: the press conference and saying, guys, what you're hearing is

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Speaker 1: the sound of concrete breaking.

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Speaker 2: I'm cracking, yes, which I think again.

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Speaker 1: People forget Reagan's sense of humor about himself, among other things,

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Speaker 1: was one of the most winning parts of his personality.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you mentioned that. Note.

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Speaker 2: He always said, the humor you used against yourself is

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Speaker 2: the best type of humor. He would poke fun at

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Speaker 2: himself all the time. He had that grace and that charm,

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Speaker 2: but that utter self confidence to be able to poke

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Speaker 2: fun at himself over so many things.

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Speaker 1: You know. I think it was in the maybe the

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Speaker 1: ninety two convention he said, you know, I knew Thomas Jefferson.

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Speaker 3: Yes, right right.

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Speaker 2: It turned it around to be such a singer on

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Speaker 2: Bill Clinton. I remember the speech well because it was

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Speaker 2: written by a friend of mine's, Landon Parvin Reagan got

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Speaker 2: up there and says, this new man they've chosen, says

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Speaker 2: he's the new Thomas Jefferson. Well, let me tell you something.

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Speaker 2: I knew Thomas Jefferson. He was a friend of mine

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Speaker 2: and Governor Clinton, You're no Thomas Jefferson.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which was also a takeoff on the line that

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Speaker 1: had been used against dan Quiitlan just four years earlier.

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Speaker 1: I flew a couple of times on Air Force One.

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Speaker 1: He would always come back and tell jokes, and he

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Speaker 1: particularly collected anti Soviet jokes, much like Lincoln. I think

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Speaker 1: he relieved the tension by telling jokes and by being

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Speaker 1: humorous and by looking for positive things.

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Speaker 3: Very much so.

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Speaker 2: I remember that one anti Soviet joke he told about

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Speaker 2: the Soviet citizen is talking to an American citizen, and

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Speaker 2: an American citizens says, hey, in this country, I can

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Speaker 2: walk into the Oval office, I can pound my head

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Speaker 2: on the table and say I don't like the job

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Speaker 2: you're doing, mister President, And the Soviet citizen says, I

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Speaker 2: can do the same thing. I can go into the Kremlin.

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Speaker 2: I can go to the Soviet Premier's office, I pound

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Speaker 2: on the table, and I could say I don't like

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Speaker 2: the job Ronald Reagan is doing.

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Speaker 1: One of the most interesting and serious parts of Reagan story,

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Speaker 1: in seventy six, he decides to challenge Gerald Ford. Ford

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Speaker 1: had become president by accident. Nixon was forced out of

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Speaker 1: office and what I think was a coup. But nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: Ford is there. Why do you think Reagan decided to run?

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Speaker 1: And do you think when he first decided he thought

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Speaker 1: he would win or he just thought it was necessary.

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Speaker 3: He thought he was going to win.

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Speaker 2: He really always thought he was going to win, and

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Speaker 2: he came damn near close to winning. It wasn't for

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Speaker 2: shenanigans in the Illinois, Ohio, Mississippi, and New Jersey delegations

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Speaker 2: because he only lost by sixty nine delegate votes out

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Speaker 2: of two thy two hundred and seventy voted, So it's

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Speaker 2: just a hair's breadth of losing. But I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: the reason and he decided to run was because Ford's

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Speaker 2: snub of Alexander Sozaneatsen. At the urging of Henry Kissinger,

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Speaker 2: sozan Eatsen was expelled from the Soviet Union. They didn't

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Speaker 2: want to kill him because there was too much light

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Speaker 2: on him, but he was expelled and actually became a

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Speaker 2: cause celeb in the United States and in the West.

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Speaker 2: And ironically, there was a reception on Capitol Hill and

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Speaker 2: the two people who cospond to the reception were Jesse

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Speaker 2: Helms and Senator Joe Biden of Delaware. The one person

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Speaker 2: who couldn't make it unofficially was Ronald Reagan, but he

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Speaker 2: wrote many op eds about Sozan eats and did many

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Speaker 2: radio commentaries. And then when the issue came up about

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Speaker 2: President Ford meeting with Sozeneatsen, which would have angered the Soviets,

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Speaker 2: and Reagan's attitude would have been, you know, go screw yourself.

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Speaker 2: But Ford knuckled under to Henry Kissinger's advice to snub

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Speaker 2: Sozan eachten and this is so angered Reagan. If Ford

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Speaker 2: had met with and Reagan might not have ever run.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because he comes very close and the Panama

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Speaker 1: Canal plays a big role in that. And at the convention,

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Speaker 1: in one of the most interesting moments of history that

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Speaker 1: you could never invent, Ford asked him to come down

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Speaker 1: and say a few words, and he basically delivers the

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Speaker 1: speech he would have given as his acceptance speech. A

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Speaker 1: good friend of mine said, at the end of that speech,

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Speaker 1: he realized they nominated the wrong guy. It was electrifying.

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Speaker 2: Ford spoke politely, but when Reagan spoke, they said, let

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Speaker 2: us march.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and forty gave a pretty decent speech that night,

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Speaker 1: which was then totally overshadowed by Reagan. There's this moment,

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Speaker 1: I think it's the next day, where Reagan meets with

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Speaker 1: his entire team and he really talks as though it's over.

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Speaker 1: You know, the cause will go on, the cause will live.

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Speaker 1: But you had the sense that he thought he was

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Speaker 1: now going back to the ranch and that probably he

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Speaker 1: would never again be a factor.

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Speaker 2: He listened to the American people. He was out campaigning

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Speaker 2: for everybody that fall. He was every place he was

436
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: campaigning for you. He's campaigning for many candidates. He didn't

437
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 2: campaign much for Gerald Ford did a couple of events

438
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: for him, But that was it. But that speech that

439
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: you referred to, it was broadcast live in all three networks.

440
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 2: Everybody in the world heard it. Everybody in America heard

441
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 2: it because it was the only thing on and every

442
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: place Reagan went that fall, Chambermain's cops, everybody said, Governor,

443
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: you've got to run again. You've got to try it again.

444
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: You've got to run again. And I think that, as

445
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: much as anything, convinced him to run one more time.

446
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: How much do you think his stature grew out of

447
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: having been a genuine movie star. The people really knew him,

448
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: they'd been in the movie theater, they'd seen him.

449
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: I think it grew tremendously. Don't forget not just movie

450
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 2: star but TV. Scar the ge Theater, which he'd been

451
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: the host of, won several Emmys. It was must watch

452
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: TV sometimes had a market share of at fifty to

453
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 2: fifty five percent of the American audience on any given

454
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: Sunday night. He was an authority figure as the host

455
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: of that. But you know, in the movies he was

456
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: always the good guy, always played the good guy. Only

457
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: one movie was he ever in The Killers, which was

458
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: made in nineteen sixty four, which he never watched. He

459
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: refused to watch it. Was he a bad guy? He

460
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: hated that movie.

461
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,959
Speaker 1: And I have seen it and he's totally unbelievable. Ronald

462
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: Reagan cannot play the bad guy.

463
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 2: No, he's out of character. He hated slapping Angie Dickinson.

464
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 2: So he's an authority figure because he's a good guy.

465
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: He's an authority figure because he's the host of ge theater,

466
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 2: and he develops a taste for being an executive, not

467
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: a legislator. Because you know, after his speech for Goldwater

468
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: in sixty four, a lot of people out in California said, oh, Governor,

469
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: you got to run for Congress. O, Governor, you got

470
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: to run for the Senate.

471
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 3: It was a.

472
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: Group of businessmen in Los Angeles, the kitchen cabinet evolved

473
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: in the kitchen cabinet who said, no, you should run

474
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: for governor. And that wedded Reagan's appetite because he saw

475
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: himself as a leader.

476
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: I think changed history, not for the better. Was when

477
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: Reagan finally wins the nomination, he picks his leading rival

478
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: to be his vice presidential candidate.

479
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one person.

480
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: They didn't think about it because they thought about Jack

481
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: Camp and there were two young too green, and there

482
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: were bad rumors about him. The pickings were thin. Bob

483
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: Dole didn't bring anything to the ticket because Reagan was

484
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: going to carry the farm country anyway. Reagan knew that

485
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: a winning convention is a unified convention. Unified conventions tend

486
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: to win in the fall. Divided conventions tend to lose

487
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: in the fall. Is that sixty four, the Republicans are united,

488
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: they lose. Sixty eight, the Republicans are united, they win.

489
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: Seventy six the Republicans are divided, they lose. Eighty the

490
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 2: Republicans are united, they win. And the same thing for

491
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party and seventy two the Democrats were divided,

492
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: so they lost. In sixty four they were united, so

493
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: they won. In sixty eight they were horribly divided, so

494
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: they lost. So Reagan knew this, but the pickings were thin.

495
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: But the one guy that I wish he had thought

496
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: about who took himself out of the running early was

497
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: Senator Dick Schweiker of Pennsylvania. I got to know Senator

498
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 2: Schweiker and his wife Claire, while I was working on

499
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: my first book, Delightful, Delightful People. They've now both passed away, unfortunately,

500
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 2: but they were lovely, lovely people. And you know, he

501
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 2: changed radically in the four years. It was a moderate

502
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: Republican senator in seventy six when Reagan picked him.

503
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what he was good on.

504
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: He was pro life, he was pro Second Amendment, he

505
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: was strong on captive nations, strong on national offense. And

506
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: as a bonus, he was on Nixon's enemy list, which

507
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: I considered to be a bonus. He helped Reagan seventy six,

508
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: but he wasn't considered a nineteen eighty and I wish

509
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: he had been, because in those intervening four years he'd

510
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: grown to become a rock rib conservative on everything, on

511
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: Kemp Roth and on national defense, on everything right down

512
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: the line. You're absolutely right, picking Bush created a mess.

513
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: It's something we're still struggling with. In a sense, there's

514
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: been a Reagan Bush wing.

515
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 2: Yes, well, Bush wing slash neo conservatism, the internationalist Bill Crystal,

516
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: John Bolton, the wing of the party.

517
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: To sort of drag you into controversy for a second.

518
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: How do you think Reagan would have dealt with Ukraine.

519
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: Better than Joe Biden? That's for sure.

520
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: Joe Biden has really never told the American people what's

521
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: a stake, what is really truly state? First off, Reagan

522
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 2: was president. I don't think Putin would have invaded anyway,

523
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: and Hamas would not have attacked Israel. They've been too

524
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: scared of Reagan, the strong man. They would have been

525
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: too scared of what he would do, how he'd retal you,

526
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: that was his image. He would have been broadcasting many

527
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: inspirational messages as he did with the old Soviet Union,

528
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: a lot of strong diplomacy against Putin. Not sanctions because

529
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: sanctions don't work, but certainly the threat of war that

530
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: Putin couldn't win if the US got involved.

531
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: Couldn't agree with you more. I want to urge everybody

532
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: who's listened to us. Craig is I think the leading

533
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: expert on Ronald Reagan, who was the most important president

534
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: since Franklin Roosevelt, and a man who genuinely changed history.

535
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: And I want to thank you for joining me today.

536
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: Your new book, The Search for Reagan, The Appealing intellectual

537
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: Conservatism of Ronald Reagan, is an important contribution, and of

538
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: course we might as well as fellow authors. I will

539
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,719
Speaker 1: also point out they can buy the other five volumes,

540
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: not to mention the terrific books you've written about nineteen

541
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: forty one and nineteen forty five. You're one of the

542
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: leading conservative historians of our generation, and it is really

543
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: important for people to understand how central Reagan was, and

544
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: you have done more than any other single person to

545
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: do that. So, Craig, thank you very much for spending

546
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: this time with us.

547
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: Thank you so so much. That's so kind of you.

548
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: I could talk with you for hours about this subject,

549
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: but thank you for this time.

550
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

551
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Craig Shirley. You can get

552
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: a link to buy his book The Search for Reagan

553
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. News World

554
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: is produced by Gingrid three sixty Niheartmedia. Our executive producer

555
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork

556
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks

557
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been

558
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and

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560
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now,

561
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: listeners of news World can sign up from my three

562
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Speaker 1: freeweekly columns at gingrichthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm

563
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: new Gingrich. This is Newsworld