1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 2: Wilson. I have so many things to talk about for 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: this time. 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna go in order of what we covered 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: on the eponymous Drinks at the Yeah. So I remember 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: with such clarity my first Chirley Temple mm hmm. It 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: was given to me on a plane and because it 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: was like this cool looking beverage and I was on 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: a plane and I felt super worldly. I think this 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: might be where I fell in love with cocktails. Okay, 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: Like I just associated it with like coolness and being like, 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: you know, a globe trotter. Oh, I was nine, but 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: in my head I was the coolest nine year old 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: ever for a minute. That was also a trip where 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: I lost one of my favorite toys and like we 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: never found it and it was very troubling. 19 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: Uh. 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: But the the Shirley Temple stayed with me forever. I 21 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: don't think I have ever had one because we were 22 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: not a drinking family in any way, and so I 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: like was never. 24 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: Exposed to the idea. 25 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: I mean I was exposed to the idea of a cocktail, 26 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: but I was like, never in a place where cocktails 27 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: were being served until I was an adult. Fascinating. Yeah, 28 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 1: you could have come to my locker in high school. 29 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: Don't do that, kids don't do that. Yeah, So I 30 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: like I didn't really, I didn't really know it was 31 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: even a like a drink with a recipe. 32 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: I thought it was a thing people. 33 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Said to get something, Just give me something non alcoholic 34 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: and fruity. 35 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: Like I didn't. 36 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: I didn't realize there was like a it was an 37 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: actual oh yeah, yeah thing that it's clearly variation variations 38 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: of the recipe, but like, I didn't know there was 39 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: even really that. Yeah, I feel like most people, if 40 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: you had to go with like this is the common one. 41 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: It's the grenadine and the lemon lime soda with the 42 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: Maraschino cherry on top. The other variations are all interesting 43 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: and yummy, but like maybe the ginger ale, but I'm 44 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: I always see it most of the time if I 45 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: get it, which I occasionally do. It's the grenadine and 46 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: the lemon lime. That's the basic. The others are variations. 47 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: You can also, you know, throw a spirit in there 48 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: and make it a whole other thing. Yep, I do 49 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: a spirited version of it where I do just to 50 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: splash a grenadine and most of the syrup is actually 51 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: a rose syrup, and it's a very yummy into list 52 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: that sounds good, listen. I love flour flavored drinks, nigronies, 53 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: so nigronies are interesting. We didn't really talk about it 54 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: in the episode, but they are not everyone's cup of alcohol. 55 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: For sure. 56 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: It's a very strong flavor. It's a very unique and 57 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: strong flavor. Now, I did recently, and I've always had 58 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: a hard time making friends with an agronie, but I 59 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: did recently have I was on vacation and I had 60 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: a bartender who was doing like a cocktail flight and 61 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: talking through some stuff, and she made a very good 62 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: case where she was like, you know, most people, the 63 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: first time they take a sip of an agronie, they 64 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: do not like it. But the idea is that you 65 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: have that first sip and you let it settle, and 66 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: then you take your second sip and that's where you 67 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: start tasting all of the interesting notes of the actual beverage. 68 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: And she's not wrong. It's still a little harsh for me, 69 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: but I was able to drink it thinking about it 70 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: that way. 71 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 72 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: I also on that trip because I had set up 73 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: that tasting for me and several friends and it was 74 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: in a Star Wars situation where the drinks are named, 75 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: not what they're really named in the real world. Sure 76 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: saw several friends unknowingly rink and the groni for the 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: first time, and that was really fun for me. 78 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: Did you take pictures of their faces? 79 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Kind of? Yeah? I mean I was cackling so hard, 80 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: which is terrible, possibly, but it was very funny to 81 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: watch them go like, oh. 82 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: I'll go, what is this holy? Because a lot the description. 83 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not questioning the idea that somebody could move 84 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: from Italy to the United States and become a cowboy, 85 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: just the way the dialogue is delivered in that pee, 86 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, this does not feel real to me. This 87 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: feels made up. Maybe that opens up though many other 88 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,119 Speaker 1: questions of like, okay, but then how did this guy 89 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: know about him? Because he did travel there, right, so 90 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: did he meet this person and rewrote how he spoke 91 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: or we don't know, Yeah, we don't know. Lots of 92 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: question marks, so many question marks. That's one of those things. 93 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: And I told you, I fully expect people to write 94 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: in and be like, you got it all wrong, because 95 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: people will argue about the origins of cocktails in general 96 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: is a heated space. So I tried to capture all 97 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: of the key elements on the Nigronie. If I didn't, 98 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: my deepest apologies. I'm fascinated by the lawsuit about the 99 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: bottled Negronie. Yeah, like just that one. I mean, I 100 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: think Campari's big thing. I didn't find any actual legal 101 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: documents on how that played out, but I think their 102 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: big thing was like, it's not in a gronny. I 103 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: of Compari's not in it, So this is not in 104 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: a gronie first of all, but also that other liqueur 105 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: companies were like, it's so terrible, this can't represent Italy. Like, yeah, no, 106 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: that gave me a moment of delight. Yeah, I don't 107 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: know how you would do a I mean, you can 108 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: bottle soda. 109 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: I don't know. 110 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: There's something about that comba that doesn't seem right to 111 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: combine and bottle that it would keeps its unique flavor. 112 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: But I am no beverage chemistry expert in that regard. 113 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot more canned and bottled cocktails on 114 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: the market more recently, Yes, for sure. And I would 115 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: say I mixed results. Well that one is here's some 116 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: of the confusion for me on that one, if you're 117 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: actually mixing it and then bottling it again. I don't 118 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: know how this factory was written, but like vermouth is 119 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: one of those things that, like a lot of people, 120 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: keep at room temperature. You're not supposed to. You're supposed 121 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: to refrigerate it and once it's open, because it will 122 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: it will get skunky and weird. And if you think 123 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: you don't like Remoove, it might be because you've been 124 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: drinking it sitting on a after sitting on a bar 125 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: back when it should have been in the fringe. So 126 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: part of me is like, if you mixed that and 127 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: then you bottled it and then does that is the 128 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: vermouth at that point compromised? And will that ruin the 129 00:06:49,680 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: taste of the final thing? And I don't know. Do 130 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: you want to hear about lots of litigation involving doctor Pepper? 131 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. Okay. 132 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: First of all, I will say I have questions because 133 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: all of the things that I read said that like 134 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Alderton was like, no, I don't want any part of 135 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: this manufacturing business. But part of me is like, did 136 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: he just get pushed out? Because we never get any 137 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: more about it from that, And similarly, Morrison kind of 138 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: vanishes from the equation and his business partner takes over, 139 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: and I don't really know what the scoop is there. 140 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: That's not the litigation part. I did not realize how 141 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: many times Doctor Pepper and Coca Cola have been in 142 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: hardcore lawsuits together, Like there was during I'm trying to 143 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: remember what year it was hold on. Let me see 144 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: if I can find it in my notes, because I 145 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: did keep it handy. There was an instance where Doctor 146 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: Pepper was legally determined to be not a cola, which 147 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: is important because Pepsi and Coke have each had clauses 148 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: in their contract with bottling companies that are exclusivity clauses 149 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: like we will be the only cola you bottle and 150 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: manufacture here, which meant that Doctor Pepper couldn't get into 151 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: those markets without building a whole thing. But in being 152 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: declared legally not a cola, they were able to be 153 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: made in the same plants. So that's one thing just fascinating. 154 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 2: The other. 155 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: Is that mister pib so When it was first taken 156 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: to market, mister PIB was called Peppo okay, and doctor 157 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: Pepper sued. It was like, come on, you're making a 158 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: copy of our drink because start, remember, has maintained a 159 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: pretty significant market share because it's a unique tasting soda 160 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: in the brown sodas. It doesn't taste like the others. 161 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: It has its own kind of quality to it. 162 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: So they sued, and. 163 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: Then Coca Cola was like, okay, and then they named 164 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: it mister PIB, which, by the way, it doesn't exist 165 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: anymore either. Now it is called is it not, it's 166 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: called hold on, let me make sure I get this right. 167 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: It still exists in a different flavor. It's like PIB. 168 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: I want to say it's PIB extreme, but I don't 169 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: think it's that. It's like PIB extra or something like that. 170 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. 171 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: It hasn't been made as mister PIB for like twenty years, 172 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: which I didn't realize until I was working on this 173 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: that I yeah, I didn't realize this either. 174 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh. 175 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: The other thing that I found really interesting and I 176 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: debated over adding it into the episode and didn't is 177 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: all of the pretty unique and interesting approaches to advertising 178 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: that Doctor Pepper has done over the years. Like for 179 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: a while their bottles had the numbers ten two and 180 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: four on them, and the idea was there had been 181 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: some studies done where people got tired or laggy at 182 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: yeh thirty, two thirty and four thirty, and so they 183 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: were like, if you drink at doctor Pepper at these times, 184 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: you won't get laggy. 185 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember this. 186 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: It was pretty that's a pretty great, fascinating way to 187 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: do it. 188 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: It was. 189 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: Their slogan was drink a bite to eat at ten 190 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: two and four, and I'm like, those get sugared up. 191 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 2: It's a weird messaging, Okay. 192 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: There was also a thing that they advertised, I think 193 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: several years in the winter to make hot doctor Pepper. 194 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 2: Oh no thanks. 195 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: I want to read this advertisement to you. 196 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: I don't know why it tickles me. 197 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: So it looks so jolly. It has a snowman holding 198 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: a clear mug of hot doctor Pepper, and it says, 199 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: here's something truly different Doctor Pepper, which is great as 200 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: an icy cold soft drink, is also delicious served steaming hot, 201 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: and hot doctor Pepper is so easy to prepare. Just 202 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: heat doctor Pepper or diet doctor pepper in a saucepan 203 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: till its steams, then pour over thin slices of lemon 204 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: hot doctor pepper. That's a hot idea. Okay. I am 205 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: a weirdo that will drink soda without ice. I don't 206 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: mind a warm soda if it hasn't been in the fridge. 207 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: I'm very European this way. I'm not really uh actually 208 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: heat it up soda. 209 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: Yes, that's awful. 210 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: Having just as an example, having bought a doctor pepper 211 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: and had it in the car and left the car 212 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of hours in the summertime to go 213 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: into the store or whatever, they come out and unthinkingly 214 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: took a swig of that car hot doctor pepper. That 215 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: sounds bad to me. I mean, my thing is I 216 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: guess here's here's where I'm getting hung up. Part of 217 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: why I love sodas like many people, I love the 218 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: bubbles like that's that's part of the magic. It's why 219 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: I always want a soda in my hand, essentially of 220 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: some type, and that is gonna get rid of all 221 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: the bubbles and then you just have hot sugar juice. Ah. Yeah, 222 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: Which I guess you could make the argument, like what 223 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: do you think like warm punches are. But I'm also 224 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: not super into those. But yeah, I think that's that's 225 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: where I'm like, no, thank you, I don't I don't 226 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: care for it. And of course now there are many 227 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: many flavors and many many things, and they've done all 228 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: this stuff. But Hot Doctor Pepper really got my attention. Yeah, 229 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: that would be a great cover band of some sort. 230 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: Hot Doctor Pepper. Not for me, not for me anyway. 231 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: So many beverages, so much beverage talk I like about 232 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: of beverage history anyway, but those ones were fun to discuss. 233 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: This week, we talked about Mary Dyer and some of 234 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: the other folks who were executed for being Quakers in 235 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: colonial Massachusetts. I went down the biggest, biggest rabbit hole 236 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: about exactly where executions were taking place. What did you find? 237 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: Pretty much everything that is specifically about Mary Dyer and 238 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: is specifically about the other especially the other two people 239 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: who were executed before she was, they just say the 240 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: place of execution. 241 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: And that is all it says. 242 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: And like, there are other people who were also executed 243 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: around the same time in the seventeenth century, and some 244 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: of those do more specifically say that, like at that 245 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: point the place of execution was on Boston Neck. Boston 246 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: Neck doesn't exist anymore because on one side of Boston 247 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: Neck was the Back Bay, and on the other side 248 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: of Boston Neck was another body of water. 249 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: I don't remember. 250 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: All of that is filled in now, so like there's 251 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: no more narrow strip of land right there. But a 252 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: lot of people who described they're coming into Boston talked 253 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: about crossing Boston Neck and coming to a wall and 254 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: a gallows, and it was like outside of Boston, on 255 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: the other side of this wall on Boston Neck is 256 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: where the gallows was. There was a guy named Michael J. 257 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: Cannavan who delivered a paper in nineteen eleven in which 258 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: he walked through where other executions had taken place. He 259 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: walked through some of the vague things that people say 260 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: said about Mary Dye or other people, like there was 261 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: somebody who was like and then she was taken about 262 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: a mile and about a mile wouldn't have put her 263 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: on Boston Common, It would have put her on Boston Neck. 264 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: There was apparently a couple of decades later, Quakers in 265 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: Massachusetts were trying to like enclose the burial the burial 266 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: area where the people had been buried and to mark 267 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: their graves, which Massachusetts didn't want to do. But they 268 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: didn't really specifically say where that was, like where the 269 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: enclosure was trying to happen. 270 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: Was it on Boston Common? Was it on Boston Neck? 271 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: And then the same person somewhat later talked about passing 272 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: by the place where the Quakers had tried to put 273 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: a little fence up, but was on the way to Dorchester, 274 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: and and he definitely would have gone down Boston Neck 275 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: on the way to Dorchester, but might also have gone 276 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: by Boston Common. 277 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: Not clear. None of this. 278 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: Was helpful, And so after looking at this for just 279 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: a huge amount of time, I was like, you know, 280 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: who might know Jake from Hub History Because Hub History 281 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: is a podcast that has been around for like two 282 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy something episodes. It is just about Boston history. 283 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: Jake and I have forgotten the name of the woman 284 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: who was also hosting at the time. She's moved on 285 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: to other projects, but he had a co so that like, 286 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: they already did a Mary Dire episode, and in that 287 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: episode they described as happening on. 288 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: Boston Neck. 289 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: But as we were going back and forth about it, 290 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: I was like, I still don't know though, Like I 291 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: really thought when I asked him this question on Twitter 292 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: on a Saturday, I thought the answer was either going 293 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: to be, oh, yes, here is a great source, or 294 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: it was gonna be I actually don't. 295 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: Know of one. 296 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: But instead he very graciously spent way more time than 297 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: I expected, sending me a whole bunch of links to 298 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of primary sources that to me just 299 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: made it more confusing. One of the things that I 300 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: think happened though, is that eventually hangings were definitely carried 301 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: out on Boston Common, and the same execution site on 302 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: Boston Common was used for a while. So then when 303 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 1: in the like later eighteenth and nineteenth century, people started 304 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: writing history books about the history of Boston, they were 305 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: used to the hangings being carried out on the Common, 306 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 1: and so that was like when this other piece of 307 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: common land on Boston Neck came up and was also 308 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: just called something like the common Land, like their mind 309 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: kind of filled in the blank of Boston the place 310 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: that we know of as a public park today. So 311 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: I it just was, it was so so much, so 312 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: much time that I spent on that without really feeling 313 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: like I had come to an actual answer, but the 314 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: idea that it was definitely on Boston Common is like 315 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: almost everywhere. So another thing is, as I was thinking 316 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: about this whole Boston Common question, I was like, you know, 317 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: it would be kind of ironic because with that statue 318 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: in front of the State House, she's basically looking out 319 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: at Boston Common. She would just be sort of in 320 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: perpetuity looking at her execution and burial place. Oh so 321 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: number one, there's all the questions I just talked about. 322 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: Number two though, just because of the layout of the 323 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: park and the layout of the State House, she is 324 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: not actually looking at the Boston It's not actually looking 325 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: at Boston Common. 326 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 2: There's a building in the way. What she's actually looking 327 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: at as a Dunkin Donuts. Heaven. There's just a whole 328 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: different and very Massachusetts thing. 329 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: America runs on. Duncan Tracy, She's fine, I guess, so yeah, 330 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: if you don't know, there's a lot of dunkin Donuts 331 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. Personally, I like the Mary Dier statue better 332 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: than the Anne Hutchinson one. And one of the reasons 333 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: that the Mary Dire statue has always caught my eye 334 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: is that it has a simplicity to it, which totally 335 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: makes sense because it is about a Quaker woman by 336 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: a Quaker sculpture, and like, simplicity is a value among Quakers, 337 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: and so she's wearing very simple clothing. She's sitting on 338 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: a bench that looks like maybe the bench in the 339 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: meetinghouse that where she would have attended services. She's not 340 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: actually looking at the dunkin donuts. She's looking more downward, 341 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: and it just it's a statue that I feels like 342 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: it has a peaceful contemplativeness to it while also feeling determined, 343 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: which I think just reflects a lot of things about her. 344 00:19:54,760 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: The one of Anne Hutchinson. There's Anne. She has her 345 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: arm around a little girl, which is I'm pretty sure 346 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: supposed to be her daughter, Susannah, and so she's like 347 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: one arm is around the little girl, the other arm 348 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: she's holding a bible to her breast, and she's sort 349 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: of looking heavenward. And it's just a lot more ostentatious 350 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: to me in the way that it kind of portrays everything. 351 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: And so it's also harder to get a look at 352 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: from the sidewalk because in addition to it being farther 353 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: away from the sidewalk, there's some I don't know if 354 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: it's construction or landscape work going on, but there's a 355 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: bunch of temporary fencing right now between the sidewalk and 356 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: the statue, so it's just not as easy to get 357 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: a good look at unless you want to get on 358 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: the other side of the fence, which I think you 359 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: can do. 360 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 2: Maybe not all the time, but I think you can 361 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: do so anyway. 362 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: Statue talk, Yeah, I kind of cracked up that we 363 00:20:53,680 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: have done two shows about heresy right on each other's heels. Yeah, 364 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: but like in ways that played out so drastically differently. 365 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 366 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: For sure, one is like a bunch of dudes kind 367 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: of slap fighting, and this one is much graver. 368 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. 369 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: I did not get into it in the episode, but 370 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: I did read a whole paper about how this event 371 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: influenced sort of Quaker's views of themselves and of their 372 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: religion and also sort of the mythological mythologizing, as a 373 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: better word, the story that the United States tells about itself. Yeah, 374 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: because the colony, like colonial Boston, you could argue, had 375 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: a lot more sustained part of like the growth of 376 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: the United States as a nation than the colony at 377 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: Plymouth colony at Plymouth has its whole different issues, right, 378 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: But the colony at Plymouth didn't publicly hang for people 379 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: for being coakers, Right, So this paper kind of argued 380 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: that maybe one of the reasons that there is more 381 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: of a focus on this not very accurate story of 382 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: like the First Thanksgiving and the Colony at Plymouth and 383 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: all that is because then you don't have to talk 384 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: about these incidents of like religious persecution and hangings. 385 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: Right. 386 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: I mean, here's what I I love is not the 387 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: right word, but here your's what intrigues me about this 388 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: whole story. This is such a good examination of the 389 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: psychology of fear, right, because on the one hand, humans 390 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: fear the unexpected and the fear change, and so right, 391 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: there's that, and it's like, you know, you can't help 392 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: but think. I can't help but think. And I'm sure 393 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: many people feel the same as you. Hear it, Like, 394 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: here's a woman who lost her child and probably you know, 395 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: was grieving that, and somehow, in the midst of that pain, 396 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: also became an outcast because people were so scared that 397 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: somehow the bad thing that happened to her meant that 398 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: God was angry and they were afraid that a bad 399 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: thing might happen to them if they did not cast 400 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: her out. And it's like, it's interesting in the way 401 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: that like groupthink in situations like that can cause fear 402 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: to supersede any kind of compassion. Sure, and I'm always 403 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: very intrigued by these these kinds of things where it's 404 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: like that is a woman who just loves lost a child. Yeah, 405 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: she's got her own stuff going on. You don't need 406 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: to be like this, But they did because they were terrified, 407 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: which is weird. There are a number of people who 408 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: have drawn conclusions about like Mary Dyer's baby and like 409 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: how that baby would have been diagnosed today, and the 410 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: same for Ann Hutchinson's mishearage. And I didn't put any 411 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,479 Speaker 1: of that in there because I'm like, we are talking 412 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: about somebody who exhumed a baby that had been buried 413 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: months before and then interpreted what they saw through this 414 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: lens of like monstrousness. I'm like, I don't That's not 415 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: a lot of scientific rigor being applied there. It's very 416 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: thin evidence to try to make a diagnosis out of. 417 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: So I did not feel comfortable, even though there are 418 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: a lot of people that have made that I was like, 419 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: I don't feel comfortable really putting that in there. I 420 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: had to go back into Boston for a totally different reason, 421 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: for a different episode. And while I was there, I 422 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: as I was walking in the direction I needed to walk, 423 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: I walked past the Merryder statue and I looped back 424 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: and I was like, is she really. 425 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: Looking at the dunkin Donuts? 426 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: She is? And then I was like, let me go 427 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: look at the Anne Hutchinson statue, even though that's not 428 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: the way that I'm walking, And like walked whole way 429 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: and was like, that is a lot farther back from 430 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: the road than I. Like, it's odd how that stretch 431 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: of like Park and Land and State House is kind 432 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,479 Speaker 1: of laid out in a way that's definitely not square, right. 433 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: You end up with like one side of the Stayhouse 434 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: way farther back from. 435 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: The road than the other. 436 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: So anyway, if you go walking around Boston, we got 437 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: a lot of statues and they all have stories they 438 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: do they do. On that same walk, there were a 439 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: couple other statues that I made note of. 440 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: I was like, who is this person? 441 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: I got to look them up because I'm intrigued by 442 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: this statue. 443 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: So Happy Friday. 444 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: And if you've got great stuff going on this weekend, 445 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: I hope it's great. If your weekend is not looking 446 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: this great, you know, I hope you're able to take 447 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: a minute for yourself. I've been trying very hard to 448 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: carve out some moments for my own self every day, 449 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: even if something's going on, it's trying to prevent that. 450 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: We'll be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow. We will 451 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: be back Monday with a brand new episode. Stuff You 452 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 453 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 454 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.