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Speaker 1: logo right on the pocket. Today's episode is with Walker
Speaker 1: Cup Captain Nathaniel Crosby, Nathaniel was the captain in twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen when the US won the Walker Cup, and he
Speaker 1: will be the captain in twenty twenty one at Seminole
Speaker 1: where he's a member. So we quickly talk about the
Speaker 1: match that was there, the Rory McElroy, Dustin Johnson, Ricky Fowler,
Speaker 1: Matthew Wolf match, and then we dive into some of
Speaker 1: his playing career on the European Tours, and then we
Speaker 1: talk about the twenty twenty one Walker Cup. So, without
Speaker 1: further ado, here's Nathaniel Crosby.
Speaker 2: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a brid egg
Speaker 2: Friday egg the dread and Friday Egg Frida, egg Frida
Speaker 2: egg Brian egg Frida egg Bride egg Lie, I'm about
Speaker 2: ready to run off of the hump course.
Speaker 3: Yea, I'm just thinking about that era.
Speaker 1: And you know you had Adams, you guys at or Lamar,
Speaker 1: and then not too far later you had Sonar. Tech
Speaker 1: all kind of come in and become this in vogue.
Speaker 1: Must have Fairway Wood? Was there something about fairway Woods
Speaker 1: that allowed for entry easier than any other point with
Speaker 1: with golf clubs.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll give you a very I'll give you another
Speaker 2: quick one of my golf manufacturing experience, which is now
Speaker 2: and been suspended for fifteen or so years because I
Speaker 2: haven't been in the business for almost twenty years now,
Speaker 2: but I do follow it. The history of the tour
Speaker 2: count my store keeping unit is the same percentage is
Speaker 2: a mere percentage of the market share. So when Ping
Speaker 2: started to dominate on the PGA Tour and they had
Speaker 2: sixty percent of the players or forty five percent of
Speaker 2: the players or whatever it was and used Ping putters,
Speaker 2: the market share was exactly the same titleist golf ball
Speaker 2: since the fifties. Right, it's the count the market share.
Speaker 2: And you know this is the same as the counts.
Speaker 2: You know, seventy percent of the touring pros. It's the
Speaker 2: same deal all the way through, all the way to
Speaker 2: Fairway Woods. And we had the we outsold Callaway of
Speaker 2: my storekeeping unit. We didn't out sell them by brand,
Speaker 2: but we have sold Calaway by you know they if
Speaker 2: you're talking about the Trimetal versus Callaway, you know, any
Speaker 2: one storekeeping unit of Callaway that was a fairy would
Speaker 2: we have sold them because they in nineteen ninety eight
Speaker 2: and nine, So you know, I think the big thing
Speaker 2: what we did as a category is Adams really came
Speaker 2: out first, but they didn't commit to the PGA tour
Speaker 2: and they had a few guys on the Senior tour
Speaker 2: playing it, but they created that shallow wood. And my
Speaker 2: whole feeling about you know, any product is if it's
Speaker 2: different and it's a better and it's a better product
Speaker 2: for a significant part of the market, doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be all the market. Could be thirty percent of the market,
Speaker 2: could be forty percent of the market. But if it's
Speaker 2: a better product for part of the market that's significant enough,
Speaker 2: then you can really capture some market share. And the
Speaker 2: shallow faced woods were you know, people were hitting them
Speaker 2: further because you could have lower loft and get them
Speaker 2: in the air. So instead of a fifteen degree three wood,
Speaker 2: you were in a thirteen degree three wood, or you know,
Speaker 2: instead of a four wood at seven at nineteen degrees,
Speaker 2: you're in a seventeen degree four wood, So you're just
Speaker 2: hitting it further. But it did have some negatives and
Speaker 2: people topped them if they tried to swing up on them.
Speaker 2: They had to kind of hit them like an iron.
Speaker 2: And uh, you know I always used to present it
Speaker 2: by saying there was a vertical margin of air that
Speaker 2: wasn't as great as a deeper you know, the vertical
Speaker 2: margin air wasn't as good. So if you if you
Speaker 2: chop down on it in the rough, you'd you know,
Speaker 2: you'd fluff it. You'd hit right under it. But you
Speaker 2: could hit it out of kind of nest, you know,
Speaker 2: if in the short rough you could you could bomb
Speaker 2: it out of the short run. Yeah, uh, you just
Speaker 2: had to keep it. I mean I was a different player.
Speaker 2: I was thirty five or thirty eight years old then
Speaker 2: I could still have a reasonable back. But I remember
Speaker 2: hitting that, you know, that eleven degree. I could hit
Speaker 2: that two hundred and fifty five or sixty yards and
Speaker 2: off the ground and that was just a game changer
Speaker 2: for me. And you know, the thirteen degree was you know,
Speaker 2: maybe ten yards less, but you know, you could get
Speaker 2: an eleven degree fairlywood up in the air and you
Speaker 2: could have it. You know, you could hold par fives
Speaker 2: with it and for the average play. And I was
Speaker 2: like playing with my partner at the Cravens, my uh,
Speaker 2: the Botuto, my Orlamar co chairman at the Leonard the Cravens,
Speaker 2: and I was looking at him trying to use a
Speaker 2: pretty average player about a ten or twelve handicap, and
Speaker 2: I was like, man, am I glad he's using that
Speaker 2: at orland Mark tri Medal as opposed to a traditional
Speaker 2: because just an awkward lie or of a thin lie,
Speaker 2: you could still nail those of Mars. And you know,
Speaker 2: it's just a The golf manufacturing business is a hard business.
Speaker 2: And I just felt like, you know, I grew two
Speaker 2: companies and missed the ring on both of them. So
Speaker 2: I'm still kissed, you know, because I succeeded in a
Speaker 2: really hard category and really didn't get the windfall because
Speaker 2: you know, I think Lamar we went from one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifteen million in ninety nine and lost control of
Speaker 2: the company, and I was stayed on the board for
Speaker 2: another year and a half and just couldn't handle the
Speaker 2: direction they were trying to underpromise and over deliver.
Speaker 1: Young companies are just a crazy, uh atmosphere, and there's
Speaker 1: so much stuff that goes on, and I think you
Speaker 1: allude to hear the line was so thin, you know,
Speaker 1: talking getting talking some golf I mean, we we got
Speaker 1: to see our first love live golf yesterday. Did you
Speaker 1: I assume you tuned in to to Seminal where we're
Speaker 1: going to be having Walker Cup next year. What what
Speaker 1: were your thoughts on yesterday's match.
Speaker 2: I just thought it was fantastic, you know, the to
Speaker 2: see Seminole on TV, and you know, the drone videos
Speaker 2: were just made made of course look so beautiful, exquisite,
Speaker 2: and you know, I love the mystery of Seminole. I
Speaker 2: love the the fact that I'm mixed in with a
Speaker 2: bunch of old other retired champions and uh, we're mixed
Speaker 2: in with these masters of the universe that have you know,
Speaker 2: uh really you know, titans of industry, and we all
Speaker 2: get along great. It's a great chemistry that really very
Speaker 2: Van Gerviig the you know, I think there had been
Speaker 2: a little bit of that before, but Barry van Gervig
Speaker 2: really ushered in the old retired champions to mix in.
Speaker 2: Billy Joe Patton I think was a member here, and
Speaker 2: you know, former Walker Cupper, but in Captain and I
Speaker 2: think and and we had so many but it was
Speaker 2: just a little bit in Mick and uh, Barry Van
Speaker 2: Gervig really allowed me to be a part of the club.
Speaker 2: And you know, uh ushered In down In Gray and
Speaker 2: Benny Giles and uh Spider Miller, Mike McCoy, Uh, you know,
Speaker 2: Buddy Marucci just goes on and on. I know I'm
Speaker 2: going to leave out some but you know, Gene Elliott
Speaker 2: now is you know, great amateur golfer, and we all
Speaker 2: have a we all have a blast together. We all
Speaker 2: love playing. Dick citter Off one of my best buddies
Speaker 2: I have. I love to hand pick old crotchety guy.
Speaker 2: So I love Dick citter Off's death, who won the
Speaker 2: British Amateur a couple of times, and I think he
Speaker 2: played in ten or twelve Masters. So we have a
Speaker 2: blast together there. And uh, you know, Dick would be
Speaker 2: playing with Ken Ling Gome or you know, you go
Speaker 2: out there and you know get paired with you know,
Speaker 2: Tom Ryan or Ed Hurley or Jimmy Donner. All these
Speaker 2: guys that are absolute champions of industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's obviously an incredible place. How did you feel
Speaker 1: the course held up. I know there's a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I think most of the most of the pros that
Speaker 1: had played there knew that it wasn't a pushover. But
Speaker 1: you know, I saw some pundits were saying that it
Speaker 1: might be, you know, it might get eaten alive. But
Speaker 1: you know, even with the rain, it seemed like it
Speaker 1: held up pretty well.
Speaker 2: Well. I think it really held up well in hol Hicks.
Speaker 2: The Seminole greenskeeper really did a great job. But you know,
Speaker 2: when it rained three inches and two days before and
Speaker 2: collectively three inches and the two days prior, that's the
Speaker 2: firmness of the greens. And the wind is really the
Speaker 2: number one defense on that golf course because the greens,
Speaker 2: you know, sloped to the sides, and if you work
Speaker 2: your ball with the wind at all, the ball will
Speaker 2: roll eighty feet across the green and go into the bark.
Speaker 2: So you really have to bank your ball against the wind.
Speaker 2: You got a right to left wind, you better fade it.
Speaker 2: You have a left right wind, you better draw it.
Speaker 2: And you better have that ball coming down hitting the
Speaker 2: green when at lands straight. You know, it can't it
Speaker 2: can't be coming in on an angle or it just
Speaker 2: rolls out. And I think that that was missing a
Speaker 2: little bit yesterday because the greens were so soft, and
Speaker 2: you know, the course was the fairways were soft, so
Speaker 2: they weren't running. There's just nothing that could be done
Speaker 2: about that. You can't get out there with the blow dryer,
Speaker 2: you know. So, but I think I think the targets
Speaker 2: are so hard to hit, and I think the course
Speaker 2: held up pretty darn well considering I think it would
Speaker 2: have been perhaps more intriguing if if the wind was
Speaker 2: blowing and the frank greens were firm.
Speaker 1: What you were talking about there with the banking and
Speaker 1: do you feel you know, obviously Ben Hogan's famous for
Speaker 1: talking about it. If you can play seminole, you can
Speaker 1: play anywhere. Is that the essence of sevenole that you
Speaker 1: think he was talking about? Where the idea of you
Speaker 1: having to be able to control your trajectory in so
Speaker 1: many different ways to find the greens?
Speaker 2: I think then it was a longer course for you know,
Speaker 2: for ben Hogan, but it was also a much firmer fairway.
Speaker 2: The fairways were firmer from what I understand, you know,
Speaker 2: depending on the time of the year. When Claude Harmon
Speaker 2: shot a sixty, I only know about this, you know.
Speaker 2: Tony Pennis said that they had a drought that year
Speaker 2: and it was a pitch and put course. You know,
Speaker 2: and Craig Garvin used to or Claude Harmon used to say, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: they talk about my sixty all the time, but they
Speaker 2: don't tell that I shot sixty three the next day.
Speaker 2: He shot one twenty three in two days. And I
Speaker 2: know because I used to spend countless hours with Tony Penna,
Speaker 2: who was playing with him. But I think, you know,
Speaker 2: when Barry van Gervik took over, he made a strategic,
Speaker 2: you know, a philosophical difference with the course. I think
Speaker 2: the ball was going further. This was in the early nineties,
Speaker 2: you know, it really wasn't didn't take the big jump
Speaker 2: until the PROVX in the well whenever. That was two
Speaker 2: thousand and four or five when the prov X came out.
Speaker 2: But the guys are getting bigger, everybody's getting stronger, so
Speaker 2: it's impossible to link in the course more than they
Speaker 2: really have on a whole. Like fourteen is really a
Speaker 2: part four for those guys. Fifteen is really a part
Speaker 2: four for those guys. Although they can move the tea's
Speaker 2: back a little bit, it's still a part four for
Speaker 2: the most part, a hard one. But still, you know,
Speaker 2: fourteen and fifteen are pretty easy Part five for those guys,
Speaker 2: you know, the seventh hole, which is a long hole
Speaker 2: for the members is you know, those guys were hitting
Speaker 2: it right to the lake and there were you know,
Speaker 2: they were flipping into the lake because there's nowhere that
Speaker 2: they can move the tee back. So when Barry van
Speaker 2: Gervik came in, he you know, the greens were always soft,
Speaker 2: and I enjoyed the greens being soft because you could
Speaker 2: you could shoot at a corner pin placement and you know,
Speaker 2: you could get results. But the course now, especially with
Speaker 2: the bunkering, the fairway bunkering. When Core and Crenshaw came in,
Speaker 2: they put lifts on those bunkers. The bunkers were very benign.
Speaker 2: The fairway bunkers were benign. The green side bunkers have
Speaker 2: always been monsters, but the fairy the fairway bunkers were
Speaker 2: very benign. You hit it in a fairway bunker wasn't
Speaker 2: a big deal and the ball would roll through the
Speaker 2: fairway bunker. If you hit it at the fairway bunker
Speaker 2: with enough strength. Now the ball just hits the lift
Speaker 2: of the bunker and stays. Not only stays in it,
Speaker 2: chances are all half berry under the lift. So h
Speaker 2: you know, I think that the greens being firm and
Speaker 2: fast as opposed to you know, a couple of points
Speaker 2: slower and soft, which was what it was during the
Speaker 2: Pullman era and the Alan Ryan era, you know, have
Speaker 2: made the actual green sizes about half of what they
Speaker 2: used to be. The green sizes are the same, but
Speaker 2: because they're firm and fast, you know, they're rolling at
Speaker 2: twelve or whatever during tournaments and they're firm. So the
Speaker 2: targets are literally half of what they used to be.
Speaker 2: And you better hit the ball against the wind, curve it.
Speaker 2: You have to curve it against the wind, and you
Speaker 2: really can't. You really can't shoot at too many pins.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I got to ask after you. You won
Speaker 1: the US Am in eighty one, and you you play,
Speaker 1: you played professional golf for a little while, and you're
Speaker 1: on the European tour in the mid eighties. I just
Speaker 1: would love to hear, I mean, such a drastically different
Speaker 1: tourn than what you know professional golf is now. If
Speaker 1: you had any stories from the road there, well.
Speaker 2: I got a lot of stories, but I got some
Speaker 2: great stories. But you know, I play, I went through
Speaker 2: the tour school over there. I missed it over here,
Speaker 2: and My first year wasn't too bad. I was eighty
Speaker 2: seventh on the money list and had a good chance
Speaker 2: to win the last tournament, which was the Portuguese Open,
Speaker 2: where I was tied with sev with five holes to
Speaker 2: play and he made a double bogie and I made
Speaker 2: a bogey. And Warren Humphreys one of his only tournament
Speaker 2: in twenty years on the European Tour. Who's now now?
Speaker 2: I believe on the Golf Channel for the European Tour.
Speaker 2: But at any rate, you know, I had plentiful stories.
Speaker 2: But the overview is that I was eighty seventh on
Speaker 2: the money list my first year, you know, one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifteenth I think the second year, and one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty fifth the third. So as they say on
Speaker 2: Wall Street, I was negative trending. But you know I
Speaker 2: got I got some great friends. All the guys that
Speaker 2: are on the TV who are all my big buddies,
Speaker 2: Robert Lee, you know, Mark Rowe, Tony Johnston, Richard baxall
Speaker 2: these guys are all on the European TV for the
Speaker 2: Golf Channel, and I just had a blast making European trends.
Speaker 2: And you know, christ the O'Connor junior. All the Irish
Speaker 2: guys were great friends of mine. And you know, I
Speaker 2: think Heimi Gonzalez, the Brazilian, was one of my very
Speaker 2: good friends. And he he's he's buying a bottle of perfume.
Speaker 2: He was a lifelong I believe, bachelor, and he was
Speaker 2: then about twenty nine years old and I'm twenty four
Speaker 2: and I see him buying a bottle of perfume in
Speaker 2: the in the duty free in Paris, and I was like,
Speaker 2: who are you buying that bottle of fume for? And
Speaker 2: himI says to me, He says, Nathaniel, you know, I
Speaker 2: buy this bottle of perfume for a girl I have
Speaker 2: yet to meet. And the other funny story is John Bland,
Speaker 2: the Old Krusty, one of my favorite people in the world.
Speaker 2: He's crusty old dude who was really a talented player.
Speaker 2: I mean he could really play South African and I
Speaker 2: played practice rounds with him once in a while. He
Speaker 2: was probably about thirty nine or forty and I was
Speaker 2: twenty four or five, and I showed up one day
Speaker 2: to the practice screen before our practice round and he's
Speaker 2: putting and he looks up and sees me and greets me,
Speaker 2: and he says Nathaniel, he says, good to see you,
Speaker 2: my boy. I'm looking forward to today. He says. I wondered.
Speaker 2: I wondered what you both sat to tickets for you
Speaker 2: for Saturday and Sunday because I know you won't be
Speaker 2: making these guys. Oh, those guys would definitely take the
Speaker 2: piss out of you. They were so much fun. But
Speaker 2: you know, Seve was I got to know Seve played
Speaker 2: with him in the British Open at Troon in eighty two,
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, we had the stars if you
Speaker 2: remember we had when I played over there, I got paired,
Speaker 2: sorry about the background there. The Uh we had Seve
Speaker 2: as number one player in the world. We had Langer
Speaker 2: one year as number one player in the world, and
Speaker 2: uh Faldo lyle wusnomu okay uh. And I played with
Speaker 2: elive belt after his rookie year was my second and
Speaker 2: because I played well my first year or I was
Speaker 2: probably second or third out of the tour school in
Speaker 2: the highest you know, as far as the money list,
Speaker 2: and they paired me with a life belt five times,
Speaker 2: I think. So I played ten rounds of golf with
Speaker 2: them in eighty six, you know, so I paired with
Speaker 2: him a bunch of Colin Montgomery I played with him
Speaker 2: in his first round as a pro at the Hoggs
Speaker 2: Castle in Scotland at the Scottish Open. We had a
Speaker 2: bunch of guys and the guys that people didn't know
Speaker 2: that could really play. I mean all those Spaniards could
Speaker 2: really I mean kind of Czaris and you know Tennaro,
Speaker 2: he's trying to think of the Rivero could really play.
Speaker 2: In the Irish guys with Damon Darcy and Das Smith
Speaker 2: almost won the British Open at forty nine years old.
Speaker 2: People don't know that Mark McNulty and these guys could
Speaker 2: really play, and nobody really knew them. But we really
Speaker 2: had the stars. And then they were only giving three
Speaker 2: spots on the European Tour to the Masters, and that
Speaker 2: was a big flying because then they opened it up
Speaker 2: at the expense of the amateurs. The Masters really opened
Speaker 2: it up in about nineteen eighty eight, I think, and
Speaker 2: right away, I mean, look at all the Europeans that
Speaker 2: have won the Masters. It's just amazing.
Speaker 1: It was a era where all the star par because
Speaker 1: the OWGR came out right around then and there wasn't
Speaker 1: an American that got to number one until Couples did
Speaker 1: in ninety three. You know, all the star power was
Speaker 1: international at that point.
Speaker 2: Oh, Greg Norman was playing over there too. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean Greg would split it. Greg split his time between
Speaker 2: the two tours, but he was a European Tour member
Speaker 2: price and you know, so yeah, so so Greg was.
Speaker 2: You know, when I was eighty seventh on the money list,
Speaker 2: I was behind all those guys. So I didn't feel
Speaker 2: like I did too bad, but I you know what
Speaker 2: I just I think looking back, as a player, I
Speaker 2: did pretty well as an amateur. Other than the amateur too,
Speaker 2: I was third ranked. I mean golf, I just ranked
Speaker 2: ten players. So I was number three and in eighty
Speaker 2: one and number three in eighty two. And then I
Speaker 2: didn't end on a high note. You know, I didn't
Speaker 2: play great. I didn't really play any tournaments before I
Speaker 2: turned pro. Tried to play the ammeter one last time
Speaker 2: but in eighty four, but didn't really end on a
Speaker 2: high note. And then I think, looking back, I don't
Speaker 2: have any misgivings about retiring too soon or quitting at
Speaker 2: twenty six or seven years old, whatever I was. I
Speaker 2: think it was twenty just turned twenty seven, but twenty six.
Speaker 2: I think it just turned twenty six. And you know,
Speaker 2: the thing about it is is I recognized it was
Speaker 2: just going to be a hard career. It was going
Speaker 2: to be I could have maybe stayed out there and
Speaker 2: got in my tour card and played well. But you know,
Speaker 2: I think when you look at these guys, they're just
Speaker 2: some guys are better athletes than others. And I had
Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to have dinner with Tom Weiskoff
Speaker 2: in December and I told him this. I said, you know,
Speaker 2: you're a point zero zero one percent athlete, right and
Speaker 2: I'm probably a top three or four percent athlete. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm a good athlete, but you know, to be a
Speaker 2: top you know, you're not having fun unless you're in
Speaker 2: the top thirty or fifty. And back then you had
Speaker 2: to be in the top thirty or fifty be making
Speaker 2: any kind of a living. And I just think that
Speaker 2: there's so many good athletes then and now, and these
Speaker 2: guys that you know, we're absolutely I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: the athleticism is underrated. I think I think these guys
Speaker 2: are just such good athletes because you see so many
Speaker 2: different types of swings. Even my walker Cup players, My
Speaker 2: Walker Cup players, I'm going through. I'm building a picture
Speaker 2: book for the guys right now and a lot of
Speaker 2: Actually I hired Brian Morgan, the Scottish photographer, and he
Speaker 2: took two thousand images. So this biggest a marathon to
Speaker 2: put together. But you know, the guys swing so differently.
Speaker 2: Cole Hammer swings so differently than Stephen Fisk and Isaiah
Speaker 2: Selinda and Brandon Woo and they all swing so differently.
Speaker 2: They're all low through the ball, you know, and the
Speaker 2: same thing on the you know, look at the leading
Speaker 2: guys on the beach. Look at yesterday, I mean Matt
Speaker 2: wolf and when they dissected, you know, Ricky Fowler's flat.
Speaker 2: You know, he's got a flat swing that's slightly laid off.
Speaker 2: And you know, then you got Rory that's got a
Speaker 2: picture perfect form. And you know it's they're all so
Speaker 2: different of you know, Dustin Johnson so shut and you know,
Speaker 2: how can it be? But it's just like I'll bet
Speaker 2: you Dustin Johnson could have played baseball. I bet Rory
Speaker 2: could have played baseball. I bet they could have. You know,
Speaker 2: Dustin Johnson could have played basketball, sure, you know, and
Speaker 2: Matt Wolfe the guys are total athletes, and.
Speaker 3: That's it's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you what you thought, you
Speaker 1: know the difference between someone like you and I don't
Speaker 1: think many people would look at Colin Montgomery and scream athlete.
Speaker 1: But there is tremendous athletic ability required to hit a
Speaker 1: golf ball as consistently and to generate the speed.
Speaker 2: I mean, he really had the last extremely upright swing,
Speaker 2: you know, but I would bet you there's some athleticism
Speaker 2: in his genes, you know, because that's a different swing too.
Speaker 2: And it's just it's how easy the game is. You know,
Speaker 2: how easy is it for somebody to repeat their swing?
Speaker 2: And you know when you're you know when Jack Nicholas
Speaker 2: describes is one iron that he hit on the seventeenth
Speaker 2: hole in the US Open in nineteen seventy two. You know,
Speaker 2: he felt like he was a little shut and you know,
Speaker 2: at the top of the swing and he made an adjustment.
Speaker 2: You gotta, I mean, are you kidding me? Make an
Speaker 2: adjustment on a two hundred and thirty five yard shot.
Speaker 2: You know, when you're leading the US Open and you
Speaker 2: hit the pin with with a one iron, you know,
Speaker 2: that's incredible instinct, incredible athleticism to be able to do that,
Speaker 2: whether you you know, whatever you do, archer. You know,
Speaker 2: whatever his adjustment was, whether he arched his back more,
Speaker 2: he you know, stayed down the line more, or whatever
Speaker 2: his adjustment was, you know, was his secret. But you know,
Speaker 2: and then you look at you know, Hogan did it
Speaker 2: with technique because Tony Kinney used to tell me that
Speaker 2: he really wasn't that great a player until he changed
Speaker 2: his He used to swing along and have a he
Speaker 2: used to fight a bad hook, and then he changed
Speaker 2: his grip to where he knew he could never hook
Speaker 2: the ball. So he did it with technique. But under
Speaker 2: underneath it all, he was a good you know, he's
Speaker 2: a beautiful athlete, you know. So you know, I think
Speaker 2: obviously chipping and putting a nerve has a lot to
Speaker 2: do with it as well, and that has a lot
Speaker 2: to do confidence. But boy, sure looks like a lot
Speaker 2: of golf holes are easier for Dustin Johnson than a
Speaker 2: lot of other people, you know, And he can bombit
Speaker 2: that way. And this guy, Matt Wolfe is the same.
Speaker 2: He was lucky enough to have him in my practice
Speaker 2: squad last year or a year and a half ago
Speaker 2: where he played seminole. We played Seminole twice and then
Speaker 2: played macart Or twice or Medalist mccarts are, and then
Speaker 2: bear Slub twice. So I had him for six rounds.
Speaker 2: And you know, this guy is totally the real deal.
Speaker 2: He has at three point thirty and as you saw yesterday,
Speaker 2: he's a bomber and he knows his golf swing. He's great,
Speaker 2: He's gonna win a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had Calin Marcawa in that also, right.
Speaker 2: I haven't watched Colin Marikawa because I knew that he
Speaker 2: was going to turn tro before my so I might
Speaker 2: have seen him at the US Amateur a few holes
Speaker 2: when I I'm trying to think of who he played,
Speaker 2: But I missed Justin Sue and Colin Morrikawa, who declined
Speaker 2: the practice of the Glad thing because he was still
Speaker 2: he knew he was going to turn pro off the
Speaker 2: n C two A and Matt Wolf and a couple
Speaker 2: of other guys were still considering playing the Walker Cup
Speaker 2: but took the practice squad matches.
Speaker 1: Was there was there anybody else that you know that
Speaker 1: obviously playing a Walker Cup you're extraordinarily talented and even
Speaker 1: be considered was there any any of the other guy
Speaker 1: that just like wowed you, like in the sense of
Speaker 1: Wolf where you knew he was good, but you didn't
Speaker 1: know he was that good.
Speaker 2: I I gotta say that all of all ten of
Speaker 2: the players that were on the team were there was
Speaker 2: no favorite. It was you know, my whole you know,
Speaker 2: I didn't say, you know, even you know, just theoretically,
Speaker 2: I kind of said, you know, Andy Ogletree and John
Speaker 2: Augustine had just got into the finals of the US
Speaker 2: Amateur two weeks earlier, three weeks earlier, So kind of
Speaker 2: figured you got to play those guys four times, and
Speaker 2: they had the hot hand. You know, Cole Hammers number
Speaker 2: one ring player in the world, and Steven Fisk had
Speaker 2: won nine college tournaments I think, including six that year
Speaker 2: and finished second in the NC two as is. So
Speaker 2: I paired those guys together and made sure that they
Speaker 2: played in both the singles matches. You know, I think
Speaker 2: ox shave Tea probably has the best raw talent of
Speaker 2: any player I've ever seen. I mean, the guy's got
Speaker 2: a wingstand that's just amazing, and he being seventeen, and
Speaker 2: Stuart Hagastad being the only mid amateur I kind of
Speaker 2: thought that that was a good fit. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think the other guys, John Pawk and Celinda were
Speaker 2: getting along grave But I think Brandon Wu and Smalley
Speaker 2: and Isaiah and they're all I think they're all destined
Speaker 2: to do very well. And I think, you know, Stuart
Speaker 2: Hagastad by the way, choose an amateur path. I think
Speaker 2: this guy, because he's going to have fifteen or more
Speaker 2: shots of winning a US Amateur. I think he's got
Speaker 2: a very good chance of winning multiple US Amateurs. And
Speaker 2: I'll bet you I'll be surprised if he doesn't win
Speaker 2: four or five minameters because he is that good. And
Speaker 2: you know, it's uh, it's he's really impressive. He got
Speaker 2: to the quarters. I think of the US amitter last year,
Speaker 2: and you know.
Speaker 3: But he's really is Pebble too.
Speaker 2: Pebble is the one I was thinking about last year. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Pebble he got to the quarters and that's the one
Speaker 2: that I was thinking of. But he, you know, he
Speaker 2: literally is disappointed when he loses. And you know, it's
Speaker 2: been a bad week for him to get to the
Speaker 2: semifinals of the midameter. You know, I mean, it's a
Speaker 2: bad week for me his pest. You know, he wants
Speaker 2: to do he wants to restart the week when he
Speaker 2: gets to the semifinals, where basically anybody else who's the
Speaker 2: midameter would take, you know, being a mid you know,
Speaker 2: getting to the semifinals at the beginning of the week.
Speaker 2: So he's he is heads and shoulders to me. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, there's Scott Harvey and Matt Paris Ali and
Speaker 2: Parsi Ali and the others. To be sure, and I
Speaker 2: haven't followed or studied the midams quite as well, but
Speaker 2: I'll tell you one thing Stuart hagisat is not a
Speaker 2: oh boy, we have to take a midamter. H he doesn't,
Speaker 2: you know, There's there's no he is. He's a great
Speaker 2: presence and he really was a great chafferone as well
Speaker 2: for for you know, the Wild the Wild Child, which
Speaker 2: there were some on our team and it was a
Speaker 2: great chaperone for Aacsha and uh you know, but but
Speaker 2: I love I loved each and every one of them.
Speaker 2: It was just a blast, and you know it would
Speaker 2: be hard for me to pick one. I was really
Speaker 2: impressed with Andy ogle Tree and of course Jean Augustine.
Speaker 2: I mean, these guys are they're all top notch, but uh,
Speaker 2: just looking at the images there, their form and their technique,
Speaker 2: it's just amazing. And uh and I think they're all
Speaker 2: going to go a long ways. I think it's hard
Speaker 2: to get on tour that you know, you've got so
Speaker 2: many wrinkles now and you've got a bottleneck with this
Speaker 2: Corona virus, you know, and uh, you know, to get
Speaker 2: on the PGA Tour because you got you know, the guys.
Speaker 2: They've got to be fair to the guys that got
Speaker 2: through the corn Ferry last year, and you know it's
Speaker 2: going to be a bottleneck trying to get on the
Speaker 2: PGA Tour. So it'll be interesting to see what the
Speaker 2: PGA Tour does and how they adjust their you know,
Speaker 2: the eligibility factor on how you you know, how many
Speaker 2: guys can be on the tour and the tournaments and
Speaker 2: you know what's going to happen with the corn Ferry
Speaker 2: and the upcoming qualifying for the following year.
Speaker 1: So approaching being the Walker Cup captain for a second year,
Speaker 1: so you know, obviously you were last year and then
Speaker 1: you're for twenty twenty one, are you are you approaching
Speaker 1: it any differently than you did the first time.
Speaker 3: Is there anything that you learned from.
Speaker 2: Well, this last one I've been able to you know,
Speaker 2: I was able to look at the goat the guys
Speaker 2: for two summers, and I generally started it at the
Speaker 2: n C two A's. I didn't really interrupt my life
Speaker 2: enough to, you know, travel to college tournaments that were
Speaker 2: regional in nature, so I did the I started my
Speaker 2: touring at the n C two a's and then tried
Speaker 2: to go in a time warp to the old tournaments
Speaker 2: that I used to play in, like the Porter Cup
Speaker 2: and the transmiss and the Western Amateur and so forth.
Speaker 2: So it was kind of like a time more for me.
Speaker 2: But you know, this year a lot of the tournament's
Speaker 2: been canceled of the Walker Cup is in May, so
Speaker 2: I'll only have this summer to really scout the players.
Speaker 2: N C two as has been canceled, and next year's
Speaker 2: n C two A is after is after the the
Speaker 2: Walker Cup the two weeks after, so it'll be a
Speaker 2: much more abbreviated scouting deal. But I that was one
Speaker 2: of the funnest parts about it for me, with scouting
Speaker 2: the players and getting another families. I think I got
Speaker 2: to see like Ricky Castillo play, and yeah, a few
Speaker 2: of the other a few of the other players that
Speaker 2: would be considered because of their you know, junior careers.
Speaker 2: So Ricky Castillo to me is, you know, his last summer,
Speaker 2: his successes last summer. I believe we're going to count
Speaker 2: and you know, he was freshman of the year. You know,
Speaker 2: it'll be interesting to see if some of the guys
Speaker 2: that were on my team the last time choose to,
Speaker 2: you know, another year of college golf, because if they
Speaker 2: choose to play another year of college golf because of
Speaker 2: the bottleneck, you know, it keeps you know, that doesn't
Speaker 2: allow him to have cash, they won't have cash, but
Speaker 2: they play another year of college golf and then they can.
Speaker 2: You know, that would be John Pack who's a senior
Speaker 2: in Florida State, and Andy at Georgia Tech and Vocal Tree,
Speaker 2: and of course John Augustin at Vanderbilt. So you know,
Speaker 2: I was, if anything, I was a little disappointed that
Speaker 2: Akshay but Tia turned pro. I just I think that
Speaker 2: he is an incredible, incredible talent. A lot of the
Speaker 2: European guys have done that. They turned pro at seventeen.
Speaker 2: I don't think it was a financial it might have
Speaker 2: been a financial decision, but I don't think it was
Speaker 2: a financial necessity. But I don't know that enough. I
Speaker 2: don't know enough, But you know, I kind of wish
Speaker 2: that he had won fifteen to twenty college tournaments, which
Speaker 2: was inevitable for this guy, and had gotten the college
Speaker 2: life experience and enjoyed, you know, the maturity that that
Speaker 2: brings in that part of your life. So I was,
Speaker 2: you know, he kind of got thrown it through himself
Speaker 2: in the deep end right away. And you know, things
Speaker 2: are different when you don't when you're not the center
Speaker 2: of attention. Right when he when he showed up a
Speaker 2: junior tournament, he was definitely the center of attention. And
Speaker 2: I watched him when the Taylor made Rolex Junior at
Speaker 2: PGA by about seven or eight shots, and you know,
Speaker 2: I've never seen anybody make so many pots. It was amazing.
Speaker 2: But he's a great, great kid.
Speaker 1: Great golf becomes so much tougher when it's your job too.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know about that. I think, you know,
Speaker 2: I you know, the thing about golf is that when
Speaker 2: you show up on the range and you look down
Speaker 2: the range and you know you're better than ninety ninety
Speaker 2: percent of the people there, and the other guy who's
Speaker 2: on the range can only beat you one and three times.
Speaker 2: You don't worry about a double bogue. When you make it,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like, you know, you make a double
Speaker 2: Bogu's I got no big deal. I'm going to come
Speaker 2: back with three birdies. When you are in the Masters
Speaker 2: and you make a double bogie, you're like, holy shit,
Speaker 2: I hope I don't make another one. It's just a
Speaker 2: different metal deal. When you're looking down the range and
Speaker 2: you see guys that you're not sure you can be
Speaker 2: day in and day out, it's just a different It's
Speaker 2: harder to play your own game. I guess that's the
Speaker 2: easiest way of saying it.
Speaker 3: Back to Ricky Cass, you know I can't.
Speaker 1: A good buddy of mining plays at the Western am
Speaker 1: every year, and I came for him and he a
Speaker 1: few years ago.
Speaker 3: I'll never forget.
Speaker 1: It was at Skochie and he's paired with this Ricky Castillo,
Speaker 1: who I think at the time was fifteen, and we
Speaker 1: were about twelve holes in. I turned to my buddy,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, holy shit, this kid could play, and
Speaker 1: I mean he shot like the most effortless sixty seven
Speaker 1: or sixty six that day, and I just couldn't. I've
Speaker 1: been following him ever since, and it's just it's not
Speaker 1: surprising to see him on such an upward trajectory.
Speaker 2: Well Speaker, That's where I saw him at the Western
Speaker 2: last year at Butler National, and he played that guy
Speaker 2: Eric Bay Eric in the quarters, I think, and he should.
Speaker 2: I think he was part in he par No. He
Speaker 2: shot sixty three and one on the last. He won
Speaker 2: one on. He's guys shot sixty three and sixty five
Speaker 2: on on you know what I think. The other player
Speaker 2: I'm watching, of course is Davis Thompson and from Georgia.
Speaker 2: I saw him he lost actually and the rain delay
Speaker 2: at the Jones Cup, but he played fantastic at the
Speaker 2: Western last year. So I've gotten to see these guys.
Speaker 2: I've got Tha Gallia who's going to be highly highly ranked.
Speaker 2: And Tha Gallia had a great year at Pepperdine and
Speaker 2: I saw him play at the Western last year and
Speaker 2: also at the US Amateur at Pebble. So I've seen
Speaker 2: a lot of these guys. Pearson Coody, I've seen a bunch.
Speaker 2: William Mout I've seen a little bit. So you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not unfamiliar with Craig Cummins. I saw at the
Speaker 2: Western and he looks fantastic as well. I miss seeing
Speaker 2: him win the Pacific Coast. But in any rate, so
Speaker 2: most of the guys that are highly ranked, Trent Phillips
Speaker 2: is down there to have seen him, I haven't seen
Speaker 2: a few of the others. Thorpe's and I saw It's
Speaker 2: at the Peddle Beach last year at the at the Open,
Speaker 2: So you know, I've gotten I've gotten familiar with a
Speaker 2: bunch of these guys that are currently being considered. Cannon
Speaker 2: Klake have I watched. I think he finished second to
Speaker 2: Akshay and at that Rolex Junior. But at any rate,
Speaker 2: I'll I'll hopefully get to see, you know, four or
Speaker 2: five tournaments this summer. I'm hoping to go to the Transmits,
Speaker 2: hoping to go to definitely be going to the US
Speaker 2: Hammer at Bandon Dunes and hopefully the Porter Cuff if
Speaker 2: they don't cancel these events. So I know they've canceled
Speaker 2: the Pacific Coast already, so it'll it'll be interesting to
Speaker 2: see if these guys scrub out. Sonny Hand. I will
Speaker 2: go to as well. I believe they've postponed it but
Speaker 2: haven't canceled it. So North North Yeah, Northeastern unfortunately got canceled.
Speaker 2: I was looking forward to going up there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hopefully they'll they'll get some of them in so
Speaker 1: you get you know, because obviously college golf is in
Speaker 1: question next year.
Speaker 3: So last question.
Speaker 1: You've been more than generous with your time, and I
Speaker 1: don't want to take too much up. I got to
Speaker 1: ask about, you know how, what was like grown up
Speaker 1: in the same neck of the woods as Bobby Clampett
Speaker 1: as a junior and amateur golfer.
Speaker 2: He was about a year or two older than me,
Speaker 2: But we got paired in the US Junior Qualifying and
Speaker 2: at Stanford and Sharon Heights and you know so, and
Speaker 2: we got paired together Pacific Coast Junior So we got
Speaker 2: a paired more than a few times. And I think
Speaker 2: he was seventeen and I was fifteen that one summer,
Speaker 2: and I want a bunch of junior tournaments for my age,
Speaker 2: but was always losing to Bobby for the overall, you
Speaker 2: know so, but he was great, and then we played
Speaker 2: at college golf. He was a brigging young for a
Speaker 2: little bit and uh, you know, he went to Robert
Speaker 2: Lewis Stevenson High School before he went to Brigham Young.
Speaker 2: But he was definitely the player I was playing in
Speaker 2: that British Open at True Truon that he could have won.
Speaker 2: But you know, he he uh, he really had it
Speaker 2: going on, and he had that golf machine thing down
Speaker 2: perfectly and was working with Ben Doyle for a long
Speaker 2: time and something happened, there is my understanding, something happened
Speaker 2: with him and Ben Doyle and and uh he kind
Speaker 2: of lost his teacher and then he tried to change
Speaker 2: his swing. But boy, I gotta say, everybody thought he
Speaker 2: was the next you know, Jack Nicholas, Tom Watson, whomever,
Speaker 2: you know, he was going to be the next great player.
Speaker 1: How how would you say, like from an you know,
Speaker 1: from an amateur resume, how he compared.
Speaker 3: With some of the other grace that you've seen.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's it's interesting he won the Spaulding
Speaker 2: Tournament as an amateur, which was not an officially recognized
Speaker 2: tour event. But that was pretty impressive for a twenty
Speaker 2: one year old amateur to do that. But then you
Speaker 2: look at Scott Burplank, you know, Scott Burplank won the
Speaker 2: Western Amateur. Okay, won the Western Open. I mean he
Speaker 2: won the Western Open as an amateur. And you know
Speaker 2: I think Michelson did it at Tucson, right, Yeah, but
Speaker 2: I don't know that it. Shoot, Scott Verplank won everything twice. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he won the you know, I mean, if you look
Speaker 2: at Scott for Plank's record, I don't have I don't
Speaker 2: have it in front of me. But he won the
Speaker 2: quarter Cup, he won the Western, he won the Western
Speaker 2: I mean, won the Western Amateur and Opening. He won,
Speaker 2: He won them all, and you know that's I kind
Speaker 2: of overlapped. He was a little bit younger than me.
Speaker 2: But you know, I got a lot of time with
Speaker 2: Hal Sutton, got a lot of time with Marcomearra. You know,
Speaker 2: Corey Pavin was my age, so we had a pretty
Speaker 2: good crop. I mean, I was Scott Hope. You know,
Speaker 2: Hal and Scott Hope were a little bit ahead of me.
Speaker 2: But I got invited to all these tournaments when I
Speaker 2: was seventeen and eighteen, so I got you know, John Cook,
Speaker 2: and I got the class ahead of me because I
Speaker 2: was getting invited to these tournaments that were really young. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I played well in the junior I was medalist in
Speaker 2: the junior so I got kind of justified the invice
Speaker 2: to these tournaments. So I was getting a lot of
Speaker 2: exposure from my dad's things, so I didn't I was
Speaker 2: kind of cluttering up the field, finishing in the middle
Speaker 2: of the pack. And then and then I started to
Speaker 2: I played well in college my freshman year and one,
Speaker 2: and you know, but and then you know, quarterfinals this
Speaker 2: transmiss and North and South same thing, and semi finals
Speaker 2: and the Broadmoor, so I was kind of hanging around. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I was, you know, I hadn't won anything big
Speaker 2: before the US Amateur but but anyway, it was it
Speaker 2: was great too, you know, to get around all of
Speaker 2: those guys, and and we had a great crop of
Speaker 2: players for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, it's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: It's just always so fascinating to watch, you know, amateur
Speaker 1: and which which ones turned into you know, great professionals,
Speaker 1: and it's just such a fine line.
Speaker 3: It's so tricky.
Speaker 1: You know, the difference between a few major wins and
Speaker 1: a few tour winds is so great, but not really
Speaker 1: that big when you when you look at it, and
Speaker 1: when when you think about it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just when you look at you know,
Speaker 2: Greg Norman having two majors is just you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: there's some guys that just look so much better than others,
Speaker 2: and you know, you kind of see it on the
Speaker 2: back of the range when you're watching people at balls.
Speaker 2: But and that's the that's the thing that actually is
Speaker 2: going to have to go through, is like everybody hits
Speaker 2: it as good or better than he does. That's never
Speaker 2: happened to him before. You've never been in that kind
Speaker 2: of an environment, you know what I mean. But boy
Speaker 2: to that kid certainly has a wingspan. It's a fine line,
Speaker 2: for sure. But the guys that are a little bit
Speaker 2: better than everybody else, you know, they understand it and
Speaker 2: they know it, and that's why they go in week
Speaker 2: in and week out and perform. And it's easier for
Speaker 2: the guys that know it to play their own games.
Speaker 2: And the guys that are you know, you know, I
Speaker 2: mean Tom Lehman didn't really start breaking through until he
Speaker 2: was thirty thirty one, right, yeah, yeah, And Hogan was
Speaker 2: on this. Pogan could have given up. I mean, if
Speaker 2: he doesn't, you know, make the paycheck in Oakland, he
Speaker 2: quit and you know, his whole career wouldn't have unfolded
Speaker 2: if he doesn't make that paycheck in Oakland, right, So
Speaker 2: it's it's amazing. But Hogan didn't win a major until
Speaker 2: he was thirty five. So it's amazing how the success
Speaker 2: happens and when it happens and for what reason. But
Speaker 2: stable lifestyle is a big part of it, as well
Speaker 2: as the athleticism and the nerves being the third.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, it's it requires all facets to be
Speaker 1: truly great. But I really appreciate the time, Nathaniel, and
Speaker 1: look forward to hopefully seeing you out at an amateur
Speaker 1: tournament this summer. Hopefully that some of these happened and
Speaker 1: it'll be fun to watch, you know, maybe have you
Speaker 1: back on to talk before the next year's Walker Cup.
Speaker 2: Fantastic, all right, look forward to it. M