WEBVTT - More Cases...Less Government Control. Tim Sandefur Talks to A&G 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.280 From the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio at the George Washington 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:18.560 Broadcasts Centre, Jack Armstrong and Joe Petty Armstrong and Getty show. 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.320 Yacht sales are also booming. Some billionaires are building such 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.159 big yachts they can cost over five hundred million dollars. 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:37.720 These yachts have everything you could want and a lot 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:43.080 you don't. One yacht had a dedicated cocaine room. I'm 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.519 gonna say, if you have a dedicated cocaine room, every 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:51.280 room is a dedicated cocaine roll. Yeah, good point. Yeah. 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:54.240 Apparently the yacht wars are on among the super rich 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:56.400 to have the coolest yacht out there. And if you've 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.760 never been to San Diego and checked out what a 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.000 yacht can be, because I didn't know what a yacht 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.639 really could be until I saw the ones that pull 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.160 up in in San Diego. The top of the top. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.759 The best ones have a helicopter. Yeah, they've got a 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:17.080 freaking helicopter on their yacht. Just amazing. And usually they're 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.160 from some foreign land. What was the one super rich 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.559 guy that we he's got like a yacht on his yacht. 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.320 Take him to the helicopter or something that you can't 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.880 remember got a bigger boat than you'll ever own in 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.640 your life. On top of his giant boat that takes 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:33.720 him to wherever with the helicopter. I don't know. I 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.440 don't even know how it worked. Yeah, yeah, well please 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:38.480 welcome back to the Armstrong and Getty Show. Tim the 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.080 lawyer Sanda for Tim is the Vice President for Litigation 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:45.119 with the Goldwater Institute, adjunct scholar with Cato Institute, and 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.440 the author of many fabulous books, including The Right Turn 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.360 of Living, The Permission Society, and Cornerstone of Liberty, Property 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.120 Rights in twenty Century America Again, among others. Tim, how 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.760 are you, sir? H You know, man, I don't know 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.360 how people are so rich. I still feel rich when 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.120 I go to Red Lobster for dinner. Yeah, I know, 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.080 I know, I know. How was the kid? Red Lobster 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.440 was too expensive? So nowadays, you know, I feel like 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.360 big fancy lawyer man when I go in there. I 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.919 have all about expectations, my friend. Yeah, and we're in 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.480 what you grew up with? Um? Hey, did you watch 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:19.040 Loki by the way? Are you and I know you're 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.160 like a Star Trek guy. You're a Simpsons guy? Are 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.240 you like a Marvel comics guy, did you watch Loki 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.400 by any chance? No? I despise comic books and all 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.800 comic book movies. I cannot stand up. I'm perfectly comfortable 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.880 with that that emotion. I just wondered if you had 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.240 seen the Simpsons version of Loki. They did like a 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:39.040 three minute short that is hilarious. It's on Disney. They 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.560 are typically better than the original sources. Um. So I 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:45.640 was reading this week, how it looks like this commission 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.120 is actually gonna happen that the Biden administration put together 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.520 to take a look at the Supreme Court and some 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.839 possible changes to the Supreme Court. How many justice in? 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.240 You know? Immediately um, if you're if you're anti Biden 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:01.880 or a tide Democrat, immediately go to he's trying to 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.519 pack the court. But there is discussion of what's the 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:08.079 right number. It hasn't always been nine? Um. Should they 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.840 have term limits? Should you uh have rotating Supreme Court 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.560 justices with other federal courts? Of a variety of things. 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:17.639 What do you think is a sweet spot? What would 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.400 if you were in charge, and you were put in 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.120 charge today of how to compose the Supreme Court? What 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.120 would you do? I would leave it at nine. I 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:25.880 don't think there's any reason to change it. And I 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.560 think changing it, even if you really are just changing 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.960 it for non ideological reasons, it nevertheless still opens the 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.840 door changing it for ideological reasons down the road. So 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:37.360 I just think it's a bad idea and and there's 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.760 no reason to do it. What we really need is more. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.040 We need the Supreme Court to take more cases, and 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.560 we need the lower courts, we need more judges there. 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.520 That that often gets ignored how important the intermediate courts, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.800 the circuit courts of appeal, those are really really important, 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:54.400 and people don't really pay a lot of attention to 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.360 that because you know, the Supreme Court is always on 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.840 the news. To me, the oddest thing that happens with 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.520 the Supreme Court is that it's just a random how 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.960 many justices any particular president our administration is going to 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.520 a point and then it has such an influence. Trump 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:11.880 got three, Biden might end up with zero in his 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.240 first term. Is that Are you okay with the randomness 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.440 of that? Although although and to throw it one caveat, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.200 they regularly don't end up voting the way whatever president 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.200 thought they were going to vote exactly and that's that's crucial, 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.520 because the whole idea of the separation of powers and 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.880 an independent judiciary is that these are questions that are 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:35.400 supposed to be answered based on principles instead of political expediency. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.080 That's why we have lifetime tenure, so that the judges 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:43.160 are not going to be swayed by temporary political arguments. 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.600 And when you boil it down, all these arguments about 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.440 expanding the court and changing it are all about politics 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.240 by people who don't accept the fact that there are 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.000 right and wrong answers in the law. This isn't just 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.800 the thing about popularity. There are things that are constitutional 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.440 even though you think they're bad ideas, and there are 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.120 things that are constitutional even though you think they're good ideas, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.280 And the judges are there to tell us just for 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.880 the sake of the argument. A twenty year term, wouldn't 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.760 that have the same net benefit as a lifetime appointment, Yeah, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.159 or something along those lines, like an age limit across 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.560 the board or something. People float those ideas, and I'm 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.440 not totally against it. I think if people want to 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.599 amend the Constitution just to accomplish goals like that, that's 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.920 not necessarily a bad thing. I just don't see any 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.080 point to it. I I don't think we've ever I 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.360 don't think we've had many problems with justices who stayed 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.120 to the point where their minds went. I mean, there's 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.279 been one or two, but it's never been a real 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.640 problem like that, And so I don't I'm not really 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.599 bothered by the lifetime tenure thing with the One of 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.560 the problems with a twenty year term, of course, is 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.520 then that means that when that person's term comes up, 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.920 that's all anybody talks about at the presidential election. Nobody's 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.359 going to talk about the other issues. So it would 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.560 have effects on politics. Not necessarily saying you can't do it, 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.120 but it just seems like it's unnecessary. To me. The 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.680 biggest problem, and we've talked about this with you before, 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.680 is that the Supreme Court has to do so much 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.919 that they have a lifting that Congress is supposed to do. 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:08.960 And I was reading that might have been something you wrote, 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:10.800 but I was reading something a while back on how 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.080 it used to be believed in Congress that you would 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.560 not even introduce able that was unconstitutional. You would talk 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:20.960 it over with your your colleagues as to whether or 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.640 not this would fly constitutionally before you you get into 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.880 the wrangling of a bill, because you swore an oath. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.640 All everybody in Congress swears an oath to the to 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.240 the Constitution. Now, Congress regularly passes things that they know 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.480 might be unconstitutional, but they don't care. Oh, they don't 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.640 care at all. And and to the extent that they 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.880 do care, if they don't know, they don't have any 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.920 real awareness of the of what the Constitution says or 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.680 doesn't say. We all remember, now, is it ten years 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.839 ago when when Nancy Pelosi was asked, where in the 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.840 Constitution does it give the federal government to the authority 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:53.800 to control our health care? And her answer was are 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.839 you serious? Because she had no idea, And and of 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.600 course that that's a major problem. And that touches on 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.280 another major problem. Everybody talks about the Supreme Court, all 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:05.520 of the Supreme Court. We gotta be worried about judicial activism, 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.520 all the courts going out beyond its mount. Nobody ever 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.240 talks about how vastly more dangerous Congress is. Congress and 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:18.200 the President violate your rights every single day of your life. 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.000 The Court, at most, what the Supreme Court can really 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.560 do is step in and shut down something that you 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.880 think is a good idea. Really, I mean, there are 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.720 certainly examples of the Supreme Court or other courts going 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.160 too far and crossing the line, but by comparison to 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.680 the elected branches of government, the Supreme Court is angelic 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.920 by comparison, and people never pay attention to that because 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.000 they think, oh, well, politics, I vote for what I want. No, 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.880 this is a constitutional problem. These people take oaths to 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.920 obey and respect the Constitution of the United States, and 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.840 they typically thumb their noses at it. It's really unconstable. 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.680 Or my favorite example is President Bush signing the Bipartisan 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.760 Campaign Reformact years ago, saying that it was unconstitutional. Can 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:01.920 right on said this is unconstitutional, but I'm going to 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.040 sign it anyway because I'm going to trust that the 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.160 Supreme Court will do my work for me and strike 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.040 down the unconstitutional part. No, you take an oath to 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.400 support and defend the Constitution. You have an obligation to 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.280 veto a law that you think is on constitutional. And 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.960 Obama had one of those two where he regularly said, no, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.360 I can't do this, it's un constitutional, uneath and finally 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.720 got enough pressure from his side to go ahead and 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.040 do it with an executive order. Tim stand First, the 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.120 vice president for Litigation for the gold Water Institute. Go ahead, Tim. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.360 The obvious example that is docca right the we I 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.120 when he came out and said I can't just nullify 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.960 the nation's immigration laws. And then a few months later, 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.160 I guess what, I'm just gonna sign this thing. So 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.520 there's so many things I'd like to talk to you about, um, 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.240 but in the limit of time we have, I don't know, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:46.880 can you hang around for another segment or what's your 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.679 schedule look like? All right, Tom, Well, then I have 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.280 another Supreme Court question. You alluded to the fact that 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:54.800 the Supreme Court doesn't take com many cases. We ought 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.280 to pay more attention to the circuit courts. What percentages 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.559 circuit court cases actually make their way to the Supreme Court. 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.360 The US Supreme Court takes around eighty cases a year, 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.600 and there is about eight thousand cases that they're asked 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.560 to take. So they have a miniscule number of the 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.840 cases that they're that they are as a take. Now, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.360 it's true, many of those are just you know, some 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.400 prisoner who writes out some frivolous thing and sends it 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.760 in the mail. But these are a lot of these 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.000 are crucial constitutional issues that the court ignores for sometimes 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.320 for decades. There's an issue that I've been trying to 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.439 get the Supreme Court to take for twenty years or 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.280 so now and this and and the lower courts disagree 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.440 on this issue. So you have what they call circuit split, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:40.960 where the lower courts are actually in conflict with one 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.920 another and the Supreme Court just ignores it. Set the 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:48.679 designated hitter. If I knew what the designated hitter rule was, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:54.440 I would let you, Uh, Tim Sandiford with a Goldwater Institute, 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.240 why don't we take a quick break and then come back. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:10:00.599 And I have so enjoyed our email conversation about socialism 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.360 and George Orwell and the problems of socialism. It wasn't 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.360 lost on my Tim, on me, Tim. And then in 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:10.760 the same day you text Joe some complicated or Well 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.720 versus socialism thing, but you send me an obscene Willie 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.720 Nelson joke. So I see where you know? I understand 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.760 anyway more? With Tim the lawyer sander for Tim Sanderford's 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.640 vice president for litigation with the Goldwater Institute, the author 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.840 of many fine tombs, including uh cornerstone of liberty property 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.720 rights in the twenty one century America, which I bring up, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:34.679 tim because I want to talk a little bit about 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.280 economic freedom and in central planning and government distorting markets. 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.040 I mean, there have been a couple of obvious examples, 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:47.840 whether you know, protecting people who are delinquent on the rent, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.760 which you might be in favor of, you might not 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:55.120 uh to subsidized housing too, in particular paying people lots 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.439 of money to stay home, the way that's distorted the 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.720 labor market. Any comments on the the enhance sut unemployment 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.800 benefits of the effects of it, it has had. No Yeah, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:07.079 it's a terrible, terrible circumstance that the government has put 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.440 us in economically. Every day you drive past rest all 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.960 these fast fud restaurants that have all these help wanted 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.000 signs out you business is closed because they don't have 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.920 any employees. My wife and I went to a restaurant 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.079 a while back and they told us how straight out 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:22.640 we were, sorry, we can't see you because we don't 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.079 have any any waiters or anything. So the businesses are 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.120 are ready to get the engine of economics moving again, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.600 and instead the government is paying people to to not 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.319 to not work. It's a disastrous idea. Well, you shared 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.080 with me something from I think it was the road 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.800 to serve them by hiek about what's wrong with say, 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.319 I don't know poor people need butter. Butter is expensive. 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.240 We're gonna impose a price cap on butter. Why isn't 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.160 that a good idea? So in in if you're going 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:57.280 to control the market the price of one good, that 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.080 inevitably forces you to control the rices or the market 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.440 for any other good. So if you try to put 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.520 price controls in place for butter, dairy farmers are going 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.000 to say, well, we'll find that I'm just gonna make 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.120 cheese instead. So now you have to put restrictions in 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.199 place on cheese in order to make sure that people 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.080 get enough butter. So now you put a restriction on cheese, 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.200 and the dairy farmer says, well, okay, I'm gonna sell 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:22.440 milk instead. Meanwhile, people who use butter or cheese in 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.040 their products, you know, cookie makers for instance, they're gonna 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:26.480 you know, you're gonna have they're gonna have a problem 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.640 because they can't get any butter, So their prices are 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.439 gonna go way up. Well, now you have to control 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.000 the prices of cookies on the market, and and then 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.400 the people who depend on cookies, like coffee shops, they 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.040 can't get any cookies because there's just shortage now, so 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:39.600 their prices are gonna go way up, and they have 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.040 to control that too. So inevitably, because the market is 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.240 so interconnected, any effort to control one area of the 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.200 market requires you to control the entire market. That's the 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.800 economic reason why socialism or government controls of any sort 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.880 inevitably tend toward totalitarian is um. It's not just that 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.240 there's some that they're as bad guys out there who 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.559 take over and oh, well, this isn't real socialism, and 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.520 oh it was just because Stalin was a bad guy, 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:07.520 or it's just because Hugo Chavis is a bad guy. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.959 But otherwise, you know, it would have worked in theory. No, 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.600 in theory, these kinds of government controls do not work 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.520 as a matter of economic law. And then how does 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:20.400 it turn into cautioning descent and and what would seem 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.520 to be non economic behavior. Well, because necessarily people are 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.080 going to turn to the black market if they can't 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.560 get the products and services that they need in the marketplace. 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:29.960 They're going to turn to the black market, and you're 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:31.679 going to have to control them. You're gonna have to 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.280 control what they say, because they're going to tell each other, Hey, 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:35.560 you know you, I know where you can get some 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:37.280 butter off the market for cheap, you know, So you 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.160 have to control what they say. And that's even putting 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:44.160 aside ideological questions and enemies of the state and the 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.240 and or the the evil motives of bad guys who 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:48.960 get into power and that sort of thing. Even if 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.440 you put those things aside, and those are overwhelming concerns 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.560 in any kind of society like that, you still tend 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.040 towards totalitarianism because in order to control economic behavior, you 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.520 have to control speech. You have to troll religious freedom 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.920 of people who depend on goods and services. You know, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.480 if you're gonna if you're gonna prohibit alcohol, for instance, 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.440 what about Catholics use wine in the mass, for example. 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.560 So you're going to have to inevitably control every aspect 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.480 of individual behavior if you are really going to have 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.920 government plan your economy. So a lot of things happened 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.920 during the pandemic, and you know, to be fair, and 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:24.520 I think you've talked about this too, there are some 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.000 pretty tough calls to be made during the pandemic. It 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.560 was an unusual situation. But I've been talking about this 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.240 long form article I read about um. The pandemic was 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.640 the greatest transfer of wealth from small business to large business. 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.440 So many small businesses all across the country were forced 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:43.000 to shut their doors completely or at least severely restrict 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.840 while Walmart, Target, and Amazon made the biggest profits they've 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.120 ever made in their history selling a lot of the 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:53.920 same stuff. Well, this is I see two points here. 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.720 So the first one is if if the cost of 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.040 doing business necessarily goes up due to circumstances be on 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.560 anyone's control, such as a natural disaster, some businesses are 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.760 more able to absorb that cost, or deal with that cost, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:08.720 or provide people with the things they need at prices, 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.400 are willing to pay more than others, and those that 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.840 can't should fail economically, and those that can should succeed economically. 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.240 On the other hand, when government comes in with a 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.840 one size fits all top down we, we bureaucrats, know 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.320 how to run things better than everybody else does. Problem, 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.320 then you don't allow the businesses to come up with 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:33.160 you in the interesting, unique, unusual ideas for solving the 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.720 problem that you might not have thought of otherwise. That's 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.840 the great genius of capitalism is it allows businesses to 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.720 come up with new ways of solving and addressing problems. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.120 But when the government comes and says no, no, every 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.240 business in the in the in the county have to 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.200 shut down at ten pm or something like that, you 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.600 deprive entrepreneurs of the opportunity to come up with ways 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.880 of treating their customers safely but still getting them the 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.360 goods and services they need. Yeah. Imagine if instead of 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.480 government men dates, we'd unleashed the creativity and passions of 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.480 the American people to solve these problems in whatever industry, 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.360 whatever business. That would have been a wonderful thing to behold. Instead, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.320 we got bureaucrats who are monomaniacally focused on COVID nineteen 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.960 to the exclusion of every single other human concern. Uh. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.920 Tim sander Ford, Vice President for Litigation to the Goldwater Institute. 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.240 It's always so interesting, Tim, Thanks so much for your time, 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.720 Thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely yeah, that's absolutely right. 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.840 There's a big difference between a store of voluntarily closing 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.960 down because they say, you know, we just don't have 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.680 enough customers to justify having employees here and having our 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.080 lights on. Then the government making them close down, and 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.040 they didn't even have a shot at trying to see 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.520 if they could serve their customers well. And instead of 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.240 what that look like, say you've got two weeks to 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:46.640 figure this out, how are you going to keep your 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.640 people safe? And then watch American creativity flourish. That would 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.320 have been wonderful instead of awful.