1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Last night, the Louisville Courier Journal reported that Sergeant Jonathan Mattingly, 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: one of the police officers involved in the death of 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor last March, had secured a book distribution deal 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: with an infrint of Simon and Schuster to publish a 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: book called The Fight for Truth, The Inside Story behind 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: the Brianna Taylor Tragedy. You might also recall that Mattingly 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,639 Speaker 1: also tried to sue Brianna Taylor's boyfriend for emotional distress. 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: Activist Nandini Jamie started a petition on move on dot 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: org to stop Mattingly from profiting from Brianna Taylor's death 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: and story through this book deal. Her petition not overt 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: signatures in just five hours, and Simon and Schuster ultimately 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: announced they would no longer be involved in distributing this book. Now, 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: this is a great reminder that anyone can use their 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: voice to make an impact. We heard from Nandini last 18 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: fall when she opened up about her work tracking how 19 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: brands are funding online hate through ad dollars. Let's revisit 20 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: her story on speaking up and how learning to own 21 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: your voice can change the world. Birth control makes women 22 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: unattractive and crazy. There's no hiring bias against women in tech. 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: They just suck at interviews. Will be rather your child 24 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: have feminism or cancer? All of these completely messed up 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: headlines were actual headlines of stories published on the far 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: right website bright bark dot com, known for publishing misogynistic, xenophobic, 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: and racist articles, dangerous conspiracy theories, and deliberately misleading stories. 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: It's also one of the most important sites in the 29 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: era of Trump. Their former chairman, Steve Bannon, even served 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: as Trump's chief strategist. And where there's an online website, 31 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: there's brands keeping that website afloat by giving the money 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: to run ads on that website. But one group went 33 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: on a mission to make that kind of racism, misogyny 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: in hate speech unprofitable. Sleeping Giants became one of the 35 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: most influential activist organizations of the Trump era. Their strategy 36 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: involved urging their members to tweet screenshots of brands running 37 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: ads on websites that support and published hate speech, asking 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: if those sites match their values and urging them to 39 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: pull their ads. In doing so, they learned that oftentimes 40 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: reputable brands have no idea what sites their ads run on. 41 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: Sleeping Giants was run anonymously to create the impression that 42 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: it was run by more than just two people. After 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: the conservative news outlet Daily Caller published a piece out 44 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: in one person behind Sleeping Giants, Matt Rivets, he and 45 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: his family faced death threats. Later, Matt was profiled in 46 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: a New York Times piece alongside Sleeping Giants co founder 47 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: Nandini Jammy Sleeping Giants was so successful that they contributed 48 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: to Breitbart seeing a nine drop and ad revenue. They 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: also contributed to a broader conversation about how reputable brands 50 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: are funding extremism by spending ad money on websites that 51 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: published hate speech. So this should be a success story right. 52 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: In July, Nandini published a scathing piece on medium, saying 53 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: that while she believes she was working with Man as 54 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: a partner, he gaslighted her out of the movement they 55 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: built together. While they're working, relationships started on a good note, 56 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: Matt began taking high profile speaking engagements and obscuring her 57 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: role in their work, eventually erasing her altogether. She writes, 58 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: I want to share with you my journey was sleeping 59 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: giants while taking credit matters, and while you must fight 60 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: for yourself as hard as you fight for your cause, 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: I want to show you how a woman of color 62 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: almost disappeared from the movement she built, and what you 63 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: can achieve when you refuse to follow the rules your 64 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: white male leader sets for you. I hope other brilliant 65 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: women of color and marginalized folks see yourselves in me 66 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: and don't wait as long as I did. The stakes 67 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: are too high for you to disappear. Now Nandini has 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: done getting her voice be left out of the narrative. 69 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: So how did you get started in this work? In November, 70 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: I was working as as head of growth for a 71 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: tech startup and I went to visit Breitbart dot Com 72 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: for the first time after the elections. Just like everyone else, 73 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out what happened and what 74 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: we're dealing with here, and the first thing I noticed 75 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: was ads for some of the biggest companies in the 76 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: world on this website. You know, we've been hearing a 77 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: lot about how it was putting out pay speech and 78 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, misinformation and bake stories and all that stuff, 79 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: But no one had ever really talked about, um the 80 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: ads and the ads are how that website makes money. 81 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: So I'm no genius. I just I had like one 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: a Google ad campaign like once a couple of months 83 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: before that, and I I had been quite particular about 84 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: where my ads were going. I was, I was curious 85 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: and interested in making sure they were appearing in uh 86 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: in sort of reputable places on the Internet. And so 87 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: the first thing I thought of was, you know the 88 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: site placements. You know, the the marketers for running their 89 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: campaigns are not looking at their site placements. And all 90 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: we have to do is get these um get these 91 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: folks to add brighte bart dot com to their exclusion list. 92 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: If they do that, then brighte bart will no longer 93 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: make money. Like it was kind of like a crazy 94 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: idea because there are so many companies who have Google ads, 95 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: like possibly millions um and and the idea was to 96 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: get all of them to one by one to drop 97 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: to drop right part. So UM, I I wrote a 98 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: little I wrote a Medium post and hoped for it 99 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: to go viral UM where basically sort of outlined this 100 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: crack pot idea where I was like, we should all 101 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: just go into our Google ads added to our exclusion 102 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: list and then bride Bart won't receive our money anymore 103 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 1: and then they'll go out of business. And UM. While 104 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: that piece didn't go viral, the concept of tweeting at 105 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: a company, which is something that I did as while 106 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: I tweeted out at like Old maybe that was the 107 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: first at I saw UM and letting them know that 108 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: their ad is funding uh this hateful website was UM 109 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: was something that that took off someone uh, someone else 110 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: on the other side of the country, my my partner 111 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: who became my partner UM had the same idea. We 112 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: we sort of went into business in that sense in uh, 113 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: in terms of reaching out to companies and asking them 114 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: to check their ads and make sure that they have 115 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: ripe Bart on their on their exclusion list, and it 116 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: just kind of took off from there. So from you 117 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: writing this piece urging these brands to to block you know, 118 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: ad spins on Breitbart, this is how you first got 119 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: connected with Matt. Matt reached out to you from this 120 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: piece and thought we should work together. How did this 121 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: How did your relationship with Matt and Sleeping Giants come 122 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: to be. So I wrote this piece on I believe 123 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: it was November, and then by the next day I 124 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: had he had tech like tweeted at me saying, awesome article. 125 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: We're doing the same thing. We should you know, UM, 126 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: you should join us. And I was like super excited 127 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: to see that someone else had the same idea. We 128 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: moved very quickly from d MS to email to phone. UM. 129 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: Turns out like we just have a lot in common. 130 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: We're both copyriters, UM, were both originally from Maryland, UM, 131 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: and and yeah, he seemed really cool, so I wanted 132 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: to of course I wanted to work together. UM. I 133 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: think like for me, working joining for this meant that 134 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: we were like partners. UM. He had just started Sleeping 135 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: Giants as an account a week before, and it was 136 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: it was still nothing, you know, there was maybe a 137 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: couple of dozen, maybe a couple hundred followers. UM. What 138 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: we decided to do was I would run the Facebook page. 139 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: So we started up with Facebook page, which I um 140 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: became responsible for, and he continued to learn the Twitter account. 141 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: And there was no like formal agreement or anything like 142 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: that because we never imagined that it would turn into anything. 143 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: So we were just like al right, like it was 144 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: just taking it one day at a time, flying by 145 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: the seat of our pants, kind of a deal. Nondini 146 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: and Matt hit on something big by harnessing the power 147 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: of collective social media users to pressure brands out of 148 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: funding hate. They were having a real impact. They got 149 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: thousands of brands like A T and T, BMW, visa 150 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: lift warby Parker to stop running as on bright Bart. 151 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: Steve Bannon was even recorded talking about Sleeping Giants at 152 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: a dinner in two thousand eighteen. When I left and 153 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: to take early campaign, we were gonna make like eight 154 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: million dollars three cans flow that after we won UM. 155 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: This group called Sleeping Giants a group of texts. They 156 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: literally stripped out. They went to the thirty five exchanges 157 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: that sell the ants one so the ad dropped like ninety. 158 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: They even got Breitbart so mad that after Kelloggs pulled 159 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: their ads, Breitbart tried to organize an embarrassingly unsuccessful counterboycott, 160 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: which Kelloggs said had no discernible impact on their sales. 161 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: After it was revealed that Fox News is Bill O'Reilly 162 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: settled five different sexual harassment suits Sleeping Giants pressured brands 163 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: to stop advertising on a show. In a week's time, 164 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: the O'Reilly Factor lost more than half of its advertisers, 165 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: and Bill O'Reilly went on vacation and never returned. What 166 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: were some of the successes that you all had with 167 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: Sleeping Giants that you were really proud of? Oh my god, 168 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: we did We did so much. Um. I mean there 169 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: was just a daily grind of of getting ads to 170 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: drop we I mean just the first few months, the 171 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,239 Speaker 1: first few months of this campaign was every day, um, 172 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of dozen brands or whatever would 173 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: would drop right Bart. Sometimes it would be like really 174 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: big ones. So our first big win was Kelloggs. That 175 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: was like that resulted in uh bride Bart starting a 176 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: campaign called I think it was like dump Kelloggs or something, 177 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: and it was it completely backfired and they were like, Kelloggs, 178 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: Kellogg's doesn't support our uh you know, bripe Bart readers. 179 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: So we're going, we're gonna We're gonna dump Kellogg's in 180 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: the sink or something like that. It was so stupid, um, 181 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: but it gave us our first international headlines, so that 182 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: was really cool. Um. But yeah, the first the first 183 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: couple of months was just like just like every every 184 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: so often, some big brand would come out and be like, yeah, 185 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: we're not we don't support this ship. And then um, 186 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: after a while, we we felt like we could, you know, 187 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: start working on other things. The first time we moved 188 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: out of the sort of grew out of the brepe 189 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: bartwork was when we decided to target Bill O'Reilly's advertisers. 190 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: Bill O'Reilly had been sexually harassing his colleagues in the 191 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: workplace for um a period of decades, and The New 192 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: York Times reported on it. We were like, well, this 193 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: really does this fits into our our mission statement of 194 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: making bigotry and sexism unprofitable, and we felt like this 195 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: is something we could take on. So we um, we 196 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: decided to contact Bill O'Reilly advertisers using the same exact 197 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: m O that we did with Bright Bar, just you know, 198 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: presenting them with the information and letting them make their 199 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: own decision. And Bill O'Reilly lost dozens of advertisers, and 200 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: a couple of months later he was on spring break 201 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: and or an unplanned vacation or whatever plan vacation heavy 202 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: scare quotes around that, I know, right, Yeah, and then 203 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: he was he was gone and they were like, Wow, 204 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: we we're really onto something and um. And then we 205 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: went on to uh target Tucker Carlson's advertisers. He's lost 206 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: over I believe eight advertisers over the past two years 207 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: that we've been working on that. Um. His show is 208 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: basically uh unprofitable. It's one of the highest rated shows 209 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: on television. It just doesn't bring in any money. Yeah. 210 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: Just as a side note, one of my day jobs 211 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: involves working with a feminist activist group and we've targeted 212 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson over the years. And I don't know what 213 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: the deal is, but it's like that guy just keeps 214 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: hanging on. We can't we can't seem to get him 215 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: out of here. I think it's a lot of personal spite, 216 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: to be honest, because after we got we got there, 217 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: there was one advertiser, um who uh there their their 218 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: language learning app called Babel, and they put out quite 219 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: the blistering statement on their Tucker Carlson ads. UM. They 220 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: were sort of caught, uh caught unawares, and they responded 221 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: to our tweet saying, uh, this is uh We're so sorry. 222 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: We never um, you know, we're disappointed that our ads 223 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: showed up on Tucker Carlson. We find his rhetoric to 224 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: be repugnant, and that just triggered them. Um, they released 225 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: I think their first statement specifically calling us out. Um 226 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: it was us Media Matters and move on dot org 227 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: and it was actually, I mean, I was very proud 228 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, we're just two people running an 229 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: account in our spare time. So I felt like I 230 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: felt pretty proud of proud of ourselves. Then you should 231 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: definitely feel so proud of the work that you accomplished 232 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: um with Sleeping Giants, even though it you know, you should, 233 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 1: no one can take that away from you. That those 234 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: are huge winds and also huge, you know, culture changing moments. 235 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: You know this idea that, yeah, brands do have a 236 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: responsibility to be a little bit cheesy about what their 237 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: money goes. We should be pressuring brands to open their 238 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: eyes to where they spend their money. Like that's a 239 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: huge cultural shift that I don't think existed before your work. 240 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: So you should definitely feel very very proud and accomplished 241 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: about that. Thank you. So when did things start to 242 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: feel not so good working with man on Sleeping Giants? Yeah, 243 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: so we had a really good relationship from the beginning. UM, 244 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: he he was very nice to me and UM, and 245 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: I also I admired him a lot. Uh and I UM, 246 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: I never imagined that there would ever be problems because 247 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: it was like we're we're both here every day putting 248 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: in the work, and UM and we I think there 249 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: was a lot of mutual respect. At least that's what 250 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: it felt like. When Matt realized that he was about 251 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: to be docked by The Daily Pollar, he went to 252 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: The New York Times to sort of get get ahead 253 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: of the story, and during that time asked me whether 254 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: I would like to be interviewed for the story. And 255 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: I guess I I mean I when he said that, 256 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: I think I assumed that I was being asked as 257 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: a partner. I spoke to the reporter. I told her, UM, 258 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: you know how I was involved and all the stuff 259 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: that we were doing, and you know a little bit 260 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: of background detail on on how he worked. And she 261 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: asked me if I was UM. She asked me what 262 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: my title was and I said co founder and then 263 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: she was like great. And then she comes back the 264 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: next day and does a little fact check in and UM, 265 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: and she's like, by the way, your partner said that 266 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: you are not a co founder, and I was like, oh, okay, 267 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to make a big deal out 268 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: of it, so I didn't. I was like, just go 269 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: with whatever he says. But UM. That was sort of 270 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: the first indicator that something was off UM. And then 271 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: after that, my uh, you know, the story came out, 272 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: and my partner went on to take interviews with uh, 273 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: sort of high profile outlets like Platsy America with UM 274 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: carras Squsher spoke with Katie Kurig. And it was after 275 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: his interview with ad Week that I became concerned about UM, 276 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: about everything because he uh, he had called himself UM. 277 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: He was positioning himself as co founder, which was fined 278 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: by me. But in that article, I was positioned or 279 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: portrayed as UM, one of the individuals helping him run 280 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: the accounts. So at that point I called a meeting 281 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: and I said, hey, listen, I don't want to be 282 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: portrayed as your help or or your assistant. It's important 283 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: that I UM that I'm also portrayed as a leader, 284 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: because you know, I have been involved in this work 285 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: for the whole time, and I realized that I'm in 286 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: a really unique position like both of us were both 287 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: in a very unique position to be able to influence 288 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: the advertising industry. And I want to be able to 289 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: speak at conferences and events, and I want to be 290 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: present at the table when some of these big decisions 291 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: are being made. And that's why it's important to me 292 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: to have a title. UM. So I you know, we 293 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: had that discussion and he said, UM, I completely understand. 294 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: Let's get you a title. You can call yourself, UM, 295 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, whatever you want, obviously not founder. I'm the founder, 296 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: so you can call yourself, you know, come up with 297 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: any So I said, how about founding organizer? And he 298 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: agreed to that. So that is UM, That's what I 299 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: called myself for about a year. During that time, he 300 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: he continued to position himself as founder, of course, and 301 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: was able to leverage that too, UM to get invited 302 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: to big conferences. Uh you know, I don't know, for example, 303 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: south By Southwest and UM Advertising Week and so on. 304 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: And I just kind of felt like I was flailing. 305 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: I didn't really have an opportunity to um to you know, 306 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: to to speak at anything like that because I mean, 307 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: I I didn't have a title, and b I didn't 308 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: have any contacts in the industry. I truly was sort 309 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: of cast out on my own again, like advertising isn't 310 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: really my world. I don't have connections in that industry 311 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: I worked in, Like the tech startup scene, it's a 312 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: totally different world. So UM, so it was, it was. 313 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: It was frustrating I couldn't get to where I wanted 314 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: to be. So what I did was I asked him 315 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: for I basically asked him for the scraps. I was like, 316 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: can I like, would you mind telling me about some 317 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: of these conferences that you're going to. I would love 318 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: to come along. I would like to be your plus one. Um, 319 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, we can work the room together, we can 320 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: meet more people together. UM. You know. I was always 321 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: really careful about I don't want to steal your thunder. 322 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: I don't want the attention. I just want to be 323 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: working in the background. UM two, I don't know to 324 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: to to make something happen. And um and he would 325 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, there was there was a power differential there 326 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: because he this is his industry, and he's older than me, 327 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: and he knows more people than me. And he would 328 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: bring that up quite frequently in the calls that we had. UM, 329 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: where I was sort of outlining my issues, so he 330 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: never really um, you know, he'd always say, yeah, sure 331 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: I will, you know, I'll let you know, i'll give 332 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: you I'll give you a shout if these if these 333 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: things happened, but he never did. There was a couple 334 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: of other things that concerned me. I didn't have any 335 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: access to the general Increase email, just like I just 336 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: didn't know what was coming into into the organization, Like 337 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: was he receiving media opportunities there um or opportunities to speak, 338 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: private consulting opportunities. These were the kinds of things that 339 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: weren't coming to me necessarily. Um he was asking me too. 340 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: He had asked me to send all press requests to 341 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: him because that would help us stay on message. So 342 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: you don't want too many people speaking to the press. 343 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: I thought that was a little weird because you know, 344 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: I was writing the Facebook count completely independently. It's not 345 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: like I was getting permission from him before I wrote 346 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: post or anything like that. So it's not like I 347 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: would muddle the message because I know what the message is. 348 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: I write the message every day. I don't think I 349 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: just I don't like I'm not involved in anything related 350 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: to the merch shop I don't know how much money 351 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: is being made. I don't know how it's been spent um. 352 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: When I asked for access to that, he said, you're 353 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: just gonna have to trust me, And yeah, I didn't know. 354 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't know what to do with that. 355 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: We'll be right back, let's get right back into it. 356 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: As Matt's public profile grew, Nandini's role in Sleeping Giants 357 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: was obscured. As she writes in her medium piece on Twitter, 358 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: Matt began to replace what was once a collective we 359 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: with I and my The work I had done with 360 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: Sleeping Giants was also appearing on its conference bio. The 361 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: vagueness that once helped us look like a mysterious group 362 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: bigger than we were was now being claimed solely by him. 363 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: I didn't have the media attention or connections that Matt did. 364 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: I wasn't forty five white, and I certainly didn't know 365 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: anybody in advertising. I was young, unknown, and invisible. It's 366 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: difficult for me to hear about Nundini's experience with Sleeping Giants. 367 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: I certainly know what it's like to be passed over 368 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: for being credited or compensated for my work and if 369 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: you're a woman, especially a woman of color, you probably 370 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: know what that feels like too. I've avoided speaking up 371 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: because I didn't want to seem like a bragger or 372 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: someone who couldn't share the spotlight, or worse, someone who 373 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: was only interested in accolades. And in our deeply sexist culture, 374 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: is there anything more shameful than being a woman who 375 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 1: wants success? And it's especially tricky when you're working for 376 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 1: social change, the implication being that we should all be 377 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: doing the work just because we care about making change, 378 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: not because we want credit. But this line of thinking 379 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: can actually be kind of a trap that keeps us 380 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: from taking what's ours while our winds are claimed by 381 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: somebody else. You're not an attention seeker for wanting to 382 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: be acknowledged for your work. One thing that I hear 383 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: time and time again is why it's important to get credit. 384 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: I feel like people really need to understand that it's 385 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: not about fame and fortune and the limelight. Unfortunately, the 386 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: way that it works in the in many tech industries 387 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: is if you don't have a title, or if you 388 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: don't if you're not able to point to something and 389 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: say yeah, I did that, you're not going to get 390 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: invited to the conference, You're not going to get invited 391 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: to speak, You're not going to get you know, the 392 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: consulting opportunity, You're not going to be able to build 393 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: up your platform to be able to have a bigger 394 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: footprint to do the kind of work and make the 395 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: kind of change that you want to make. And so 396 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: when women, particularly women of color, advocate for themselves to 397 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: get the title, to get the credit, it's not because 398 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: we're same hungry, you know, attention hungry, you know, spotlight hogs. 399 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: It's because if we don't don't have those things, we're 400 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: not going to be able to have the kind of 401 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: impact that we want to be able to have. And 402 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: so I think that, I mean, I guess I know 403 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: that I have often felt a little skittish about asking 404 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: for a title or because I don't want to look 405 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: like I'm trying to, you know, be a fame a 406 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: fame hug or something, when in reality, it's just how 407 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: it's just the nature of how a lot of these 408 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: businesses work. But I mean, you said it, that's exactly right. 409 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: I was so afraid of looking like for being perceived 410 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: as someone who just wanted attention that I tried to 411 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 1: sidestep that issue by uh, by denying my self credit 412 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: and by sort of actively staying away from the titles 413 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: that would have given me the power I needed as 414 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: a co founder. When I finally made that shift from 415 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: a nonsense title founding organizer doesn't mean anything. It's like 416 00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: assistant to the regional manager. Um. When I made that ift, uh, 417 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: I just I found that people responded to me differently. 418 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: I found that I took myself more seriously. UM. It 419 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: was really eye opening to me to see how how 420 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: important titles are for people who are not traditionally viewed 421 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: as leaders in the society. UM. I almost underestimated myself, 422 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: Like how I guess I didn't realize how the how 423 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: the world sees me that was. That was something that 424 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: I kind of learned the hard way the world. Uh. 425 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, despite the fact that I was good at 426 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: what I do, that I had demonstrated my my abilities, 427 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: I people looked at me and didn't see me as 428 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: a leader. A lot I'm sure a lot of people 429 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: still don't. UM. So really claiming that title is one 430 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: of the most important things that you can do, and 431 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: I don't want anyone to think that. UM. That doing 432 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: that is is some kind of of making a bee 433 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: line for the game and fortune or the glory of 434 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: it all. Nandini decided that she was going to stop 435 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: playing by the rules Matt set for her, the rules 436 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: that allowed him to grow his public profile while she 437 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: went forgotten and overlooked the rules that allowed Matt to 438 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: fly to France to accept the prestigious Cans Lion Award, 439 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: essentially the Oscars of the creative industry on behalf of 440 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: the organization they created together without even telling her. So 441 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: when did you decide I am going to claim this 442 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: title for myself. I'm going to walk in, walk in 443 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: this title and walk in this purpose. And I don't 444 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: care what Matt thinks. It was after. It was after 445 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: he deemed me a picture of himself accepting a canned 446 00:26:53,560 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: Gold Lion in June nineteen, and it was super casual, like, hey, 447 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: we just want a candle gold Lion. And he hadn't 448 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: told me he was going to be in France. That 449 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: he hadn't told, Like, I've found out through Instagram that 450 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: he was in can I had to d m him 451 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: and be like, oh cool, you're in Europe, and uh yeah, 452 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: it was it was. It was really shocking, and I 453 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: had that was a very fault week for me because 454 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: first of all, I, as I said, I'm not from 455 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: the industry, so I knew the cand gold line was 456 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: a big deal, but I didn't realize that it was 457 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: like the oscars of the ad industry. And I was 458 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: receiving messages from all sorts of people that I but 459 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: never talked to me. We're like, wow, congratulations, and it 460 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: was it was it was like additional emotional labor for me. 461 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: I had to I had to basically lie on his behalf, 462 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,239 Speaker 1: you know. People asked me why I wasn't there, and 463 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: if I said the truth, I wasn't invited, I wasn't told. 464 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: That would that would sort of blow our cover, right, 465 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to create problems for sleeping giants, 466 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: So I just I was like, yeah, I just couldn't 467 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: make it. So I realized at that point that I 468 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: was I was not actually ever going to be made 469 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: a part of this campaign. I was being actively erased 470 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: from the story. Um. I was not mentioned anywhere at 471 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: one of our our sort of highest points of our campaign. 472 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,479 Speaker 1: And I realized that all the things that I had 473 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: been doing over the past year. We're only serving too, 474 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: We're only serving him and allowing him to sort of 475 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: accumulate power. And I was giving up my power. I 476 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: was giving up my power when I sent over press 477 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: requests to him, which allowed him to build out his 478 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: resume and you know and say, you know I've spoken 479 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: to where I have been quoted in all these news outlets. 480 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: I was giving up my ability to do the same. 481 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: I was giving up my power when I allowed myself 482 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: to be called founding organizer and UM and being consistently 483 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: seen as a number two and someone who doesn't you know, 484 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: necessarily know what's going on or or can speak for 485 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: the organization. So I made an executive decision over my 486 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: own life. I promoted myself to co founder and the 487 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: first opportunity I had to do that was about two 488 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: months later. It was actually this exactly this time last 489 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: year when I UM. I was preparing for presentation for 490 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: a talk in Scotland, and just a few days before 491 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: I was looking for a fresh example of tech platforms 492 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: being irresponsible and I went to the ku Klux Plans 493 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: website and found PayPal, a PayPal which it on their site. 494 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: And my brain is so broken that I don't know 495 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: what a big deal is anymore. I just tweeted it 496 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: out like I tweeted a million other things, and I 497 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: moved on, you know, and UM. A couple of days later, 498 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: just right after I gave that big talk where someone 499 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: had changed my title bless them, from from co founder, 500 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: from founding organizer to co founder without my knowledge, but 501 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: you know again, bless them. So a couple of days 502 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: after that, PayPal banned the KKK from their services. At 503 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: the BBC called me asking for a quote, and I 504 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: told them that I was co founder of Sleeping Giants. UM. 505 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: The day after that, I got a profile out in 506 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: an ad industry magazine called The Drum. It turns out 507 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,959 Speaker 1: that the reporter that I spoke to, the first reporter 508 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: I spoke to after the conference, was doing a profile 509 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: on me, And so I had this all of a sudden, 510 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: I had this profile and me calling calling me the 511 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: co founder of Sleepy Giants, and they had, you know, 512 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: they had. It was like a full peace on what 513 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: I think of the ad industry and how things are going. Wow, 514 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: what did that feel like for you? It felt like 515 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: I had just come into my power, Like I had 516 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: just stepped into my power. I was actually, um, I 517 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: was with my friend Claire, who is now my business partner, 518 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: and we just looked at each other. I mean, she 519 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,479 Speaker 1: knew that I had been going through a lot, and 520 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: we just looked at each other and we were like, Wow, 521 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: everything is turning around. Look how quickly things turn around 522 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: when you claim what's yours. Fuck yeah, I'm like, I'm 523 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: like on the verge of tears listening to this. I 524 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: think your story is your story, is my story. Your 525 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: story is the story of so many women of color 526 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: out there. I think that we are often told that 527 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: there is virtue in just keep your head down and 528 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: do your work and be behind the scenes. There's a 529 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,719 Speaker 1: virtue in making yourself small and not claiming that power. 530 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: And then when you when you when you ride in 531 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: that lane of making yourself small, of not walking in 532 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: your power, and then you finally say I'm done with this. 533 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: Today is the day that I that I that I 534 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: abandoned that and I walk in my power. The feeling 535 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: like it is, it is like nothing else, and it 536 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: comes from inside right. And I think that we are 537 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: sold this lie that the path of just keep grinding, 538 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: keep your head down, and you'll get your you'll get 539 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: your reward, you'll get your credit someday. Maybe it just 540 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: really doesn't. It doesn't serve us, No, it doesn't. I 541 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: I spent. I can't imagine what I could have accomplished 542 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: if you know what I could have accomplished even sooner, 543 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: if I hadn't you know, if I had chosen to 544 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: step into that power before. What what I did instead? 545 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: Because after after that can incident, I was I was 546 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: I was going to leave. I mean, I deeply considered 547 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: leaving Sleeping Giants because I wasn't getting the respect I 548 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: was asking for. Because I was going to I'm always 549 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: gonna get was the crumbs in the relationship, in the 550 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: way that it stood at that point in time. What 551 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: I did instead was I decided to stay, and I 552 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: decided that I would change the rules. I wasn't going 553 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: to play by the rules that were made for me. 554 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: I guess the moment that I stopped playing by the rules, 555 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: and when I started to uh to speak to the press, 556 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: to start writing under my own name, which is something 557 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: that I hadn't been doing, people started to see. First 558 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: of all, people just started to see me. I just 559 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: became more visible, and that put me in a position 560 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: where people wanted to reach out to me because they 561 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to me about my thoughts. And that 562 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: allowed me to start connecting with people in the industry. 563 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: And that's what helped me to meet the people who 564 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: would become my allies, the people who would make introductions 565 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: for me in the industry, um, you know, the people 566 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: who would become my future business partners. And it was 567 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: a slow moving situation. UM. None of it happened overnight. 568 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: But really that investment in building relationships UM and building 569 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: my knowledge was what helped me get to the point 570 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: where I could just come out and say, I am 571 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: co founder, and uh, this is who I am. You 572 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: talked earlier about your allies. You have this great line 573 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: on your medium piece that I love you say. It 574 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,959 Speaker 1: costs nothing to make space for me, It cost nothing 575 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: to see see me in, It cost nothing to empower 576 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: other people to achieve their goals. And I think you 577 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: just really hit the nail on the head. All the 578 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: people in my life move been my allies and my 579 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: co conspirators. They are the ones who are down to 580 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: send the email down, to write a reference, down, to 581 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: connect me with an opportunity. Because it doesn't cost them anything, 582 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: and I really think we need to reject this mindset 583 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: that tells us that we have to be stingy when 584 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: it comes to resources or putting somebody else on, because 585 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: what's better is if we lift others up as we climb, 586 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: and all of our work is better when we empower 587 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: each other. There's truly enough room for all of us. Absolutely, 588 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there were so many times where I I mean, 589 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: I mean I I learned so much in the past year, 590 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: and many times I offered to get on calls with 591 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, with my partner and brief him on what 592 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 1: I had learned, and I wanted to make it work, 593 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: and to the point that I was willing to continue 594 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: working with someone who was fairly toxic towards me in 595 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: the way that he spoke to me at times. But 596 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: I wanted to make it work because the movement that 597 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: we have here, the movement that we have built, is 598 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: more important than either one of our egos. Do you 599 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: ever feel that, you know, I don't really even know 600 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: how to put this. Like, in work that involves tech 601 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: and the internet, we have this myth that there's this 602 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: one genius, usually a white dude, but it's usually this 603 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: like one genius who does everything. Like we love the 604 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: idea that there's you know, one lone wolf who was 605 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: doing this really cool work, and that really denies what 606 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: we know is the truth that so much of this 607 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: work is collaborative, So much of it is, you know, 608 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: people working together. Do you think that's a like like 609 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: a problem in the tech space and in the sort 610 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: of ad space in general. Oh yeah, I mean I 611 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: could see the press was dying to find their lone 612 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: wolf hero for this sleeping Giant story. Like I just 613 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: don't think they knew what to do with a woman 614 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: like in the story, which made no sense to me 615 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: because in the New York Times article, in our big 616 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: coming out article, we were equally waited visually, you know, 617 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: the pictures were the same size. Why did no one 618 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: ask about me? Like where did the girl go? Where 619 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: is she at? What does she think about the issues? 620 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a camp pain against bigotry and sexism. 621 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: Where is the brown girl? So yeah, I think the 622 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 1: industry as well as the media is looking for their um, 623 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: for their white man savior, which is a problem. But 624 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: I believe that I believe that, I um, I mean, 625 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: I've I've taken those lessons to heart, and I I 626 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: see how these stories are built now, and I am 627 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: dead set on never letting that happen again, at least 628 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: in in my life and in my in my work. 629 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: UM and the people whose lives that I touch. UM 630 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: with the company that Claire and I ended up starting 631 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: after a year of working together, researching things together, interviewing 632 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: people together, we launched this company as co founders, as 633 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: equal partners. There was never any question about it. And 634 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: I have name dropped her in well, I guess, in 635 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: our relationship now as we started, as we started this company, 636 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: I'm sort of the more well known person, and I 637 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: that sort of gives me, that sort of puts me 638 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: in a place of privilege in our relationship. And so 639 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: I use that to name drop her in everything that 640 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 1: I do. And when I see an opportunity where I think, 641 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, an opportunity comes to me that I think 642 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: she's better suited for UM, I send it over to 643 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: her and she does the same for me. Let's take 644 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: a quick break and we're back alongside our partner, Claire 645 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: atkin Nandini now runs check my Ads, an organization that 646 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: helps brands keep their ad money away from fake news, disinformation, 647 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: and hate speech, and as much behind the scene in 648 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,439 Speaker 1: success as she had getting brands to pull their ad 649 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: dollars away from inflammatory sites with sleeping giants, their work 650 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 1: created another kind of problem. Brands, concerned about ending up 651 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: and sleeping giants as crosshairs and weary of being associated 652 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: with anything negative, started using keyword blocking software to make 653 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: sure their ads weren't running on controversial topics. Now Wired 654 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: reports that these ad blockers actually end up blocking terms 655 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: and kind of haphazard ways. The magazine publisher Hearst complained 656 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: that articles about Megan Markle, the Duchess of Sussex, spelled 657 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: s U s s e X. We're being blocked because 658 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: the word sex appeared on blocklists. What's worse, terms like 659 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: lesbian and bisexual we're blocked for being controversial. Some blocklists 660 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: also blocked ad placements on news articles from reputable sites 661 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: about coronavirus information, and some brands were blocking their ads 662 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: from news sites in general, creating less ad money for 663 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: an already struggling news industry. Her new company, check My 664 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: Ads aims to tackle the issues Her workless Sleeping Giants 665 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: might have inadvertently contributed to. So I want to talk 666 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 1: about check my ads. I was just reading the Wired 667 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: piece about check my ads, so in a in a 668 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: kind of way, and forgive me if I bungle this, 669 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: and feel free to correct me. I'm no ad tech person, 670 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,319 Speaker 1: but I gotta handle on it. So in a kind 671 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: of way, sleeping giants as as many you know, successes 672 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: as y'all had, in a kind of way, it kind 673 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: of made the media landscape a bit worse because some 674 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: brands were then like, oh well, if I'm gonna get 675 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: dinged for having my ad next to, you know, a 676 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: hate site, I'm just gonna have my ads pulled from 677 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,919 Speaker 1: anything that could be possibly can you know, read as controversial, 678 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: even things like covid, you know, and so it really 679 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: cred of created a problem for how ad dollars were 680 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 1: spent in the media landscape more generally. Is that is 681 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: that sort of correct? That's correct? What I never anticipated 682 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: working on this campaign, when you know, when we when 683 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: we started tweeting at companies, we were very clear that 684 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: we think that they should look at their ad placement 685 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: on breite bart because it is um you know, we 686 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: used very specific descriptors like homophobic, xenophobic, racist, white nationalist, UM. 687 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: What we did not realize or anticipate was that the 688 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: way that that work would be interpreted in the boardroom 689 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 1: would be, Oh, these guys are just going after UM 690 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: content they don't agree with and content that is like 691 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: so called controversial. Because the boardrooms are filled with mostly 692 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: white people. The A the ad industry is mostly white guys, 693 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: and the in the tech industry at the attack industry 694 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: are mostly white people, so they don't feel comfortable having 695 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: conversations about racism or even using that word. So they 696 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:05,439 Speaker 1: literally just wopped out racist with the word controversial or 697 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: offensive or even yikes yikes moments, not yikes, not yeah 698 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: it's called hate. Oh oh that really that they will 699 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: do some like I love the like euphemisms for not 700 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: having to use the word racist. It's a yikes moment. 701 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: So check my ads is UM. We started it as 702 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: a brand safety consultancy two A health companies check their 703 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: ads to understand where their ads are going to help 704 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: them identify UM, hate speech and disinformation in their media 705 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,359 Speaker 1: by and we also, on the other hand, help them 706 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: to become more intentional about what they want to support, 707 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: because that's sort of what brands are looking that these days. 708 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: There's so many um there's so many reasons that our 709 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:10,320 Speaker 1: existing channels are are toxic or brand unsafe or causing 710 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: trouble in society, that brands and marketers are really starting 711 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: to explore ways to be UM, be smarter and and 712 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: and and spend their money in a way that's more 713 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: aligned with their with their values. So we're helping brands 714 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: to define their own rules and define what where the 715 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: line is when it comes to their media by so 716 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: that really helps them to start thinking about what they 717 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: want to support in a way that doesn't feel political. 718 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: We want them to be able to have that conversation 719 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: through a shared language where they but they're able to 720 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: sit down and say we shouldn't be advertising on a 721 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 1: website like this because it's not aligned with you know, 722 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: this value or um you know or this campaign that 723 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: we have in place, and to do so in a 724 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,919 Speaker 1: way that doesn't make people feel uncomfortable. So we want 725 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: people to to We want to be able to facilitate 726 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: those conversations within a company so they can make those 727 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: decisions ahead of time instead of having to respond to them. 728 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: You know, when it turns into a massive issue on 729 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,240 Speaker 1: social media. Nandini is fully a leader in her industry. 730 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: Her innovative work helps shift culture and build paths for 731 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: accountability online that anyone with a Twitter account could participate in. 732 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: And now she's building on what she learned to refine 733 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: the way she makes change. None of this would be 734 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: possible if she had just kept her head down, made 735 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: herself small, and followed somebody else's plan for her life. 736 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: After she published her medium Peace, in a tweet, Nott 737 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: apologized and acknowledged Nandini as a rightful co founder of 738 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: Sleeping Giants, And now she wants to make sure that 739 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 1: other women, you know, there's nothing wrong with one in 740 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: credit for your work. What would you say to a 741 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: woman out there that's listening that you know is quick, 742 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,760 Speaker 1: keeping your head down, She's doing the grind. She's afraid 743 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: to step into her power. As you put it, You know, 744 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: she she wants credit, she wants that title, but she 745 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: doesn't know where to start, and she's afraid to even 746 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 1: to even start that journey. What would you say to 747 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 1: someone like that? I would say that she can start 748 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: building our own power today by writing I was able 749 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,320 Speaker 1: to start building my power when I had nothing and nobody, 750 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: simply by writing a little bit on LinkedIn every day, 751 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: just a little bit about current events, about how I 752 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: feel about something that happened, my opinion, my perspective. No 753 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: one asked, and for a long time, no one cares. 754 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,839 Speaker 1: But when you do it every day, you demonstrate your 755 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: knowledge and your insight, You represent what you're capable of. 756 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: You show people how you think and how you approach problems, 757 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: and people do start to pay attention. You do start 758 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: to build out the people who care, the people who 759 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: want to engage with you and uh and from there 760 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 1: you grow out the you can start building out the 761 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,319 Speaker 1: relationships that you need to either you know, find your 762 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: next place, a less toxic place, a place where you 763 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: can be more powerful and um and at the very 764 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: least too to build your personal influence. That was something 765 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: that really helped me, was just positioning myself as a 766 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: thought leader, even if it was to no one but me. 767 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: Right exactly, You just you get used to saying I. 768 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: That was something that I never did because I thought, 769 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: who cares? Like, who cares what I think? Right? I 770 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: don't even care what I think. That was that was 771 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,880 Speaker 1: the attitude I had about myself. So just the simple 772 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,919 Speaker 1: act of saying I this is what I think was 773 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: quite radical for me, because what you think matters, so 774 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 1: what you write matters too. Got a story about an 775 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi? 776 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: You can re us at Hello at tang godi dot com. 777 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,840 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi 778 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was 779 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I 780 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 781 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato 782 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If 783 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us 784 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heeart Radio, 785 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever 786 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.