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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com Slash podcasts. New York Attorney

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Speaker 1: General Eric Schneiderman is resigning as the state's highest law

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Speaker 1: enforcement official. Schneiderman announced his resignation just hours after a

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Speaker 1: magazine article in which four women accused him of physical violence.

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Speaker 1: Schneiderman said in a statement, while these allegations are unrelated

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Speaker 1: to my professional conduct or the operations of the office,

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Speaker 1: they will effectively prevent me from leading the office is

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Speaker 1: work at this critical time. Joining me is Bloomberg News

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Speaker 1: Legal investigative reporter Greg Farrell. Greg tell us about the

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Speaker 1: allegations from these four women broadly, um basically, each of

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Speaker 1: them tells the variants of the same story that they

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Speaker 1: had an intimate relation ship with Sniderman, and that at

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Speaker 1: certain points he struck them, slapped them very hard across

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Speaker 1: the face, uh, in more than one case, choked you know,

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Speaker 1: one or several of the women to the point where

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Speaker 1: you know they felt that they had trouble breathing, UM

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Speaker 1: left marks on their faces to the to the effect

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Speaker 1: that these women would go and share details with friends

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Speaker 1: to um to corroborate them. UM. And also just a

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Speaker 1: like a power relationship, treating them in demeaning fashion. UM.

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Speaker 1: Forcing them to drink more than they would drink alcohol

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Speaker 1: is at the center of a lot of these uh,

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of these scenes. Yeah. Now, this

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Speaker 1: came as a shock too many people, especially after Schniderman's

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Speaker 1: legislative and legal advocacy for women's rights, his support of

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Speaker 1: the Me Too movement. Were there any hints about this

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Speaker 1: before the story was published in The New Yorker. No.

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Speaker 1: And it's clear from the New Yorker article, which did

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Speaker 1: an amazing level of reporting on this, that this didn't

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Speaker 1: just come out yesterday. I think the office there has

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Speaker 1: had at least a week I'm guessing, you know, the

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Speaker 1: back and forth on this. UM. It is amazing that

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Speaker 1: nothing like this had come out before, and ironically it

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Speaker 1: was the Me too movement. I think a number of

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Speaker 1: these women who thought they were individual and this only

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Speaker 1: happened to them and maybe questioned or had self doubt

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Speaker 1: about what their role might have been in this um

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Speaker 1: once a couple of them got together and realized it

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Speaker 1: was more than one women, and then hearing the former

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Speaker 1: attorney general will speak on at some length about women's

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Speaker 1: rights and me too and the importance of treating women

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Speaker 1: with respect that they know. It's spilled over to the

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Speaker 1: point where two of the four women referenced in the story,

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Speaker 1: we're willing to go on the record with their names. Now. First,

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Speaker 1: Schneiderman was investigating Manhattan d A. Sivance Jr. Now Sivans Jr.

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Speaker 1: Is investigating Eric Schneiderman. I want to say only in

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Speaker 1: New York, but I think this would happen anywhere right now,

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Speaker 1: like only in New York. It's almost comical. It's not comical,

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Speaker 1: but it's almost common goal the and to some extent,

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Speaker 1: this is not the not Vance's investigation of Schneiderman's conduct

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Speaker 1: that falls well, we'll get to that in a second.

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Speaker 1: First of all, the fact that Governor Cuomo recommended and

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Speaker 1: referred the Vances, you know, lack of prosecution or lack

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Speaker 1: of action against Harvey Weinstein a few years ago, is strange.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there's any legal basis for one

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Speaker 1: constitutional officer, the governor, ordering another constitutional officer, the a

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Speaker 1: G to investigate a third constitutional office, the Manhattan District Attorney. Um,

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Speaker 1: you might disagree with cy Vance's judgments on things like

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Speaker 1: the Weinstein case, but but that's his prerogative. He said

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Speaker 1: there wasn't enough, and maybe he's wrong, but that's sort

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Speaker 1: of what you know, prosecutors you run get elected for

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Speaker 1: and if you're unhappy with him, you don't vote from

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Speaker 1: next time. But to go in sick, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Attorney general on that without some real reason, it just

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Speaker 1: seems strange. So anyway, yes, Um, now the conduct here, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is for Sivance. This seems like a a loser.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if his office finds like some you know

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Speaker 1: grounds to you know, misdemeanor or felony, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: charges against Sneiderman, it'll look like political payback. So that's

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Speaker 1: bad too. If they don't find anything, it will look

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Speaker 1: bad like he's weak and he's not doing anything, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, like like what happened with Dominique straus Khan

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Speaker 1: and like what happened with Weinstein a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: So this is I'm sure something that Sivance is not

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Speaker 1: like looking forward to yeah, exactly now. Snoderman has gotten

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Speaker 1: national recognition for the role he's played in resisting Trump

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Speaker 1: administration policies from environment to immigration, but he was also

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Speaker 1: seen as someone who would might step in if the

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Speaker 1: president pardoned people close to him like Paul Manaford, and

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Speaker 1: last month they even asked lawmakers to change the States

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Speaker 1: double jeopardy law to exempt presidential pardons. Is there concerned

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Speaker 1: that those efforts in that role will be abandoned, I'm not. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion

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Speaker 1: immediately for a couple of reasons. One, this is still

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Speaker 1: very much a blue state, and whoever replaces Schneiderman is

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Speaker 1: going to be some from the same political background, uh

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Speaker 1: as Schneiderman. It does sort of disrupt I mean, Schneiderman

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Speaker 1: did establish himself as a he was gladly played the

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Speaker 1: role of foil to President Trump and antagonist to President Trump.

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Speaker 1: So whether or not his successor, you know, relishes the

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Speaker 1: same sort of role, that remains to be seen. However,

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Speaker 1: Schneierman is not the only actor in this case. Again,

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Speaker 1: going back to Sivance, I Vance's office is also looking

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Speaker 1: into conduct related to you know, people around Trump as

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Speaker 1: sort of a and none of them are stepping on

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation. But I think it's clear

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Speaker 1: that they're ready and waiting so that if something happens

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Speaker 1: to Mallor or pardons, you know, blanket pardons are issued

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Speaker 1: in these cases that you know, state regulative state, you know,

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Speaker 1: actors in New York can go ahead and take action.

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Speaker 1: So now we're going to have a real election for

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Speaker 1: New York Attorne general because he was the overwhelming favorite before.

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Speaker 1: What names are being mentioned for the Democratic nominee? There

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Speaker 1: A few of the names we've heard include Kathleen Rice

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Speaker 1: Um and uh, I think Letitia James Um. So clearly

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Speaker 1: several women's names have been put forward and given what

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Speaker 1: happened to Governor Spitzer a decade ago, and now this

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Speaker 1: clearly makes sense that you know, having a woman that

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Speaker 1: position would be a very good move politically. So those

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Speaker 1: are some of the names. However, Um, there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a this is an interesting political dilemma, or at least

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Speaker 1: a political situation in Albany. They have a chance now

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Speaker 1: in Albany to designate someone to you know, serve as

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Speaker 1: Attorney General until the election in November. Um. I think

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Speaker 1: the hope is they'll find someone who can then be

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Speaker 1: the woman favorite and keep the job. In other words,

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Speaker 1: basically sliding someone in and politically, uh, they don't want

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Speaker 1: someone who would be too tough or go after corruption

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Speaker 1: in Albany. That that's that's for another show. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much, breg as a eas that's Bloomberg News Legal

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter Greg Farrell. Gina Haspell spent three decades working

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Speaker 1: in secret, but now the lifelong spy will be making

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Speaker 1: a very public appearance. She'll be grilled about her secretive

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Speaker 1: work by the Senate Intelligence Committee and her confirmation hearing

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Speaker 1: to become CIA director. Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said the

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Speaker 1: White House is backing Haspell acting Director. Haspell is a

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Speaker 1: highly qualified, uniquely positioned individual to lead the CIA, and

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Speaker 1: we're very confident in her ability to answer the questions

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Speaker 1: that we know we're going to come. The focus of

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Speaker 1: the hearings is expected to be on Hospell's involvement in

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Speaker 1: alleged torture programs and her role in destroying videotapes of

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Speaker 1: interrogations of detainees. Joining me is Stephen Vladick, professor at

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Speaker 1: the University of Texas School of Law and co editor

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Speaker 1: in chief of Just Security. Steve you wrote a piece

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Speaker 1: in Just Security entitled the hospital nomination as a reference

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Speaker 1: end them on unaccountability. Would you explain why there have

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Speaker 1: been no legal remedies in cases of the torture of

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Speaker 1: US detainees. Sure, and I think you know planetts who

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Speaker 1: have tried to do the US government directly, US governed officers,

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Speaker 1: even US government contractors, based on claims that they were

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Speaker 1: tortured well in US custody have generally had those cases

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Speaker 1: thrown out for a wide range of procedural reasons, to

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Speaker 1: none of us have to do with the merits in

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Speaker 1: none of these cases, to the government, that the court

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Speaker 1: rule that these planets weren't tortured. In all these cases,

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Speaker 1: the court said there were some obstacle, whether the absence

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Speaker 1: of a cause of accent or whether the possibility that

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Speaker 1: the government defendant might have qualified immunity that would prevent

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Speaker 1: the court from that. You've decided on the question of

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Speaker 1: whether torture happened and whether these plaintiffs were abused, and

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Speaker 1: so collectively we've gotten to, you know, sixteen years after

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Speaker 1: this program started, with not a single judicial rule in

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Speaker 1: only in one way or the other that abuses that

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Speaker 1: were perpetrated against futilities in the US custody f n

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Speaker 1: I eleven were or were not torture. So why do

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Speaker 1: you see Haspell's confirmation hearing as a referendum on government

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Speaker 1: accountability rather than a referendum on hospitalstability. Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: think those are mutually exclusive, and the actually it gets both.

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Speaker 1: But you know, June, many of these opinions by courts

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Speaker 1: that have said it's not necessarily our place to jump

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Speaker 1: over the political branches have pointed to the far better

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Speaker 1: position that Congress is in when it comes to these

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Speaker 1: kinds of highly classified national security programs to find out

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Speaker 1: what happened, to make its own judgments, UM, and to

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Speaker 1: decide whether and how to punish those responsible and if

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Speaker 1: it's worth stressed. And one of the ways historically that

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Speaker 1: Congress has exercised its leverage and basically you know, effected

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Speaker 1: accountability is by refusing to confirm nominee who were involved

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Speaker 1: in prior abusive government programs. So you know, I think

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Speaker 1: that's why this here um tomorrow is no interesting because

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Speaker 1: it's not just about Hospital herself, who I said quite

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Speaker 1: clearly played a very central role in at least some

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Speaker 1: aspects of the CIA printation, detention interrogation program. It's also

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Speaker 1: about whether the political branches are going to use this process,

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Speaker 1: the confirmation process, to make up for I think many

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Speaker 1: of the deficits and shortcoming and how we have tried

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Speaker 1: to create a record of the abuses carried out as

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Speaker 1: part of the detention programs is not eleven. So you

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Speaker 1: have you looked at the way the sides are lining

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Speaker 1: up and whether Hasspel is likely to be confirmed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's going to be very close. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I think is really interesting

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Speaker 1: is there's a bit of a schism even on the

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Speaker 1: sort of pro hospital side. You know, there are some

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Speaker 1: folks who are saying, don't hold it against her that

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Speaker 1: she was part of these abuses at a much different

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Speaker 1: time in our history where I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: you know, things may have gone wrong. But then you

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Speaker 1: have folks like President Trump, uh, you know, Press Secretary

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Speaker 1: Sanders saying that you know, hass fule record and hasful

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Speaker 1: and involved in these abuses. Um, it's not it's actually

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Speaker 1: a reason to confirm her. That is not that that

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Speaker 1: seeds to be confirmed because of her role in we

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Speaker 1: have not despite them, thankly to you. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's doing her any favors. And I actually think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, as the press reporters last week, they are

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Speaker 1: real concerned about whether they're enough votes and whether she

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Speaker 1: might withdraw, rather than risk of potential negative vote. So

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a very interesting to hearing to

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Speaker 1: keep an eye on. Let's turn to another subject you've

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Speaker 1: written about. You're very prolific. As we noticed, it seems

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Speaker 1: like just about the only thing that has remained consistent

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Speaker 1: in the Trump defense recently is the contention that the

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Speaker 1: president doesn't have to comply with a grand jury subpoena

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Speaker 1: to testify. So, to borrow the title of your column,

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Speaker 1: can the presidency trump a special counsel subpoena? Um? They

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Speaker 1: had a title, a little wordy. I like their en.

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Speaker 1: I think probably not. I mean, so, there's no Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court case squarely on point with regard to whether a

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Speaker 1: president can get compelled to testify before a grand jury.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the Supreme courts come pretty close. So

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Speaker 1: in the Watergate tapes case in four you know, an

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Speaker 1: eight to nothing court held that President Nixon could be

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Speaker 1: forced to comply with the subpoena ducas take them for

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Speaker 1: you know, specific evidence in that case, the Watergate tapes. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, in the Clinton versus Jones case, the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court expressly rejected the argument that Article two of the

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Speaker 1: Constitution generally pretends the president from having to bear the

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Speaker 1: burden of litigation, including in that case, you know, showing

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Speaker 1: up for a deposition. So you know, there's no square

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision in June. But I do think that

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Speaker 1: if we actually got to a point where the Special

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Speaker 1: Council had a subpoena for a grand drate testiment from

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Speaker 1: the president, Um, you know, I think the president would

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Speaker 1: lose if you tried to challenge that in court, at

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Speaker 1: least facially. Now that's without regard you know. The president,

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Speaker 1: of course is free to get on the stand and

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Speaker 1: invoke whatever privileges or immunities he might think he has,

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Speaker 1: among them, perhaps most importantly his siphanomic rights, you know,

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Speaker 1: against self incrimination. That's a separate matter from whether he

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Speaker 1: can refuse to comply with the subpoena in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, because I've been cute curious

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Speaker 1: about this. It seems obvious from everything that Giuliania said

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Speaker 1: and Trump has said and tweeted that there is not

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Speaker 1: going to be an interview. So in about a minute,

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Speaker 1: tell us why Mueller doesn't just serve him with a

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Speaker 1: grand jury subpoena. Now, so, I think, I mean certain

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Speaker 1: serv of the president with the subpoena is is really

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Speaker 1: fourth of the issue in a way that the Special

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Speaker 1: Council may not want to or New Tea tude. I

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Speaker 1: think you know, what the President says and what Rudy

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Speaker 1: Giuliani and other sir gets thing on television is one thing.

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Speaker 1: But until then last Muller is completely convinced that there's

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Speaker 1: no accommodation to be reached short of a grand jury subpoena.

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Speaker 1: I think it's in his interest, in everyone's interests to

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Speaker 1: presume that accommodation. No matter what the sound bites all

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Speaker 1: on television, we'll know that those of the comminations have failed.

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Speaker 1: If and when we get to a moment where Mala

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Speaker 1: really does actually if he's at a subpoena, well it's

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Speaker 1: going to be very interesting, particularly with Rudy Giuliani in

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Speaker 1: this because sometimes whether whether it's a he's pursuing a

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Speaker 1: legal strategy or a public relations strategy. More to come. Thanks,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Steve. That's Steven Vladick, professor at the University

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Speaker 1: of Texas School of Law and co editor in chief

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Speaker 1: of Just Security. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Ye