WEBVTT - Michael McCartin on East Potomac Park Golf Course

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Frida Egg Podcast. This week, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>joined by golf course architect Michael McCartin. We discussed Michael's

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<v Speaker 1>background and his career in golf to date, but the

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<v Speaker 1>real focus of the episode is on Washington d C's

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<v Speaker 1>municipal golf course, East Potomac. Michael did his graduate school

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<v Speaker 1>thesis on the golf course and kind of the current

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<v Speaker 1>state the history of the golf course and Washington d

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<v Speaker 1>C's municipal golf I would highly recommend giving the thesis

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<v Speaker 1>a read. We provided a link to it in the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast page on the website, as well as a few

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<v Speaker 1>selected images from it of East Potomac and what it

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<v Speaker 1>originally looked like. So definitely go check that out on

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<v Speaker 1>the website. That would be under the podcast page at

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<v Speaker 1>the Fried Egg. Anyways, without further ado, here is Michael McCartin.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you guys enjoy and had a great Thanksgiving.

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when

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<v Speaker 1>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 1>And when I final a ball in a brid Egg

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<v Speaker 1>Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday Frida Egg, Brian Egg,

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<v Speaker 1>Frida egg Brian egg Lie, I'm about ready to run

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<v Speaker 1>off of the course. Who is Mike mccarton in the

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<v Speaker 1>golf world?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I am a golf course architect. I started working

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<v Speaker 2>for Tom Doak in two thousand and five at bally Neil.

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<v Speaker 2>This was something that I kind of worked up to

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<v Speaker 2>over time. I went to school for landscape architecture. That

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<v Speaker 2>was actually after going to school for economics as an

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<v Speaker 2>economics major, and I had been kind of obsessed with

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<v Speaker 2>golf architecture since I was a little kid and thought

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<v Speaker 2>there was no future at it for whatever reason. And

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<v Speaker 2>after I got out of school, I was bored and

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<v Speaker 2>working for some place that I just didn't have any

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<v Speaker 2>interest in, and I thought, well, I should write Tom

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<v Speaker 2>Doak like I'd actually had a correspondence with him when

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<v Speaker 2>I went and studied abroad in Saint Andrews my junior

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<v Speaker 2>year of college, and he told me to just play

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<v Speaker 2>as many courses as I could out there, and he

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<v Speaker 2>was really nice just to even respond. So then I

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<v Speaker 2>applied for an internship and that's how I ended up

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<v Speaker 2>at ballyn Neil in two thousand and five.

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<v Speaker 1>What originally got you into golf course architecture as a kid.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is funny because it kind of ties in.

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<v Speaker 2>But the first thing that got me into golf architecture

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<v Speaker 2>was I think playing at East Potomac Park as a kid.

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<v Speaker 2>That's where I learned how to play. And my dad

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<v Speaker 2>would take me and my brother out to the course

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<v Speaker 2>just to get us out of the house, and we'd

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<v Speaker 2>sit there and watch them hit balls at the driving

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<v Speaker 2>range there, and then you know, we just had to

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<v Speaker 2>We just had to do it. You know, it's like

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<v Speaker 2>we can't just say, of course he gave us. I

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<v Speaker 2>think I got. I was like into you know, Fanta

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<v Speaker 2>or what I like, an orange soda. I would give

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<v Speaker 2>an orange soda and sit there and then finally it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>this is really boring. I better, I better hit balls.

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<v Speaker 2>I must have been eight years old, and then you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we started playing the course and that was really fun.

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<v Speaker 2>But playing at East Potomac Park, where if you didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know any better, it's kind of the definition of a

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<v Speaker 2>place that you would you would associate with the municipal

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<v Speaker 2>course where yeah, there's nothing really to the course. It's

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<v Speaker 2>really flat, you know, in terms of features that would

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<v Speaker 2>be interesting, there's not much there so then every other

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<v Speaker 2>place that I went and played afterwards, I would kind

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<v Speaker 2>of compare back to like the blank slate of East Potomac,

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<v Speaker 2>And so each place is like, you know, you could

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<v Speaker 2>play somewhere and it would feel like it's adding another

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<v Speaker 2>element to golf and golf course design. So I got

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<v Speaker 2>really into what made certain courses better, and I started

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<v Speaker 2>reading books about golf architecture, and probably by the age

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<v Speaker 2>of twelve, I had read every book that you know

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<v Speaker 2>was out there at the time. So crazy, Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 2>that's kind of the start, I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>So at age twelve, you were like more versed in

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<v Speaker 1>golf architecture than like ninety nine point nine percent of

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<v Speaker 1>the golfing pots.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you have to put it, you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit into perspective, because fifty percent of all of

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<v Speaker 2>those books, you know, whether it's Donald Ross or you know, whoever,

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<v Speaker 2>they're devoted to agronomy in the nineteen twenties. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't really help you. You know, it's it's great,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to read that, but it's also not practical

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<v Speaker 2>for now. But the drawings, especially in those books, I

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<v Speaker 2>probably filled up, you know, a bunch of notebooks with

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<v Speaker 2>drawings of fake two D golf courses back back then,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think I would even write to Golf Digest

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<v Speaker 2>for you know, they had those inserts in the old

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<v Speaker 2>magazines where you could where you could check off what

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<v Speaker 2>you might be interested in learning more about. So I

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<v Speaker 2>would check off everything, and back in the mail we

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<v Speaker 2>get all of this what most people would consider junk

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<v Speaker 2>mail of you know, advertisements for golf courses, but it

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<v Speaker 2>had pictures, and I would like kind of, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>run through the pictures and like the guide to Myrtle

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<v Speaker 2>Beach Golf. You know, when they first incorporated all together,

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<v Speaker 2>that would be an exciting moment for me.

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<v Speaker 1>What was the first course where you were like, whoa,

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<v Speaker 1>this is way different than East Potomac.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmm. I think maybe the first course was probably I'm

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<v Speaker 2>trying to think of something that's actually meaningful. But most

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<v Speaker 2>of the courses I would I would say that had

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<v Speaker 2>big impacts were more incremental, like just there's more going

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<v Speaker 2>on here. There's a Robert Trent Jones junior course around

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<v Speaker 2>DC called Landsdown that I went to with my dad

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<v Speaker 2>and my thirteenth birthday. That was that was just like

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<v Speaker 2>whoa this is? It was a resort. It was in

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<v Speaker 2>really good shape. That kind of was pretty meaningful. There

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<v Speaker 2>are a bunch of courses on the eastern shore of

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<v Speaker 2>Maryland where we would go in the summer, we'd go

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<v Speaker 2>out and play, So I don't think i'd played anything

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<v Speaker 2>that's really architecturally significant for a while, though I had

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<v Speaker 2>read as much as I could about them. Washington Golf

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<v Speaker 2>was probably the first access to a course that has

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a history that I had played

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<v Speaker 2>as a kid, because a couple of kids in my

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<v Speaker 2>little league baseball team had, you know, been members there,

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<v Speaker 2>and so they take me out on Wednesday afternoons, but

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<v Speaker 2>kids out to you know, unaccompanied.

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<v Speaker 1>So then how long did you work with Renaissance.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so started a balllet deal in two thousand and five,

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<v Speaker 2>and then went from there to the Renaissance Club in Scotland,

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<v Speaker 2>and then from the Renaissance Club to a course called

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<v Speaker 2>Wicked Pony in Bend, Oregon, which ended up closing in

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<v Speaker 2>the recession. It never opened. Then to Old McDonald and

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<v Speaker 2>then to Mexico where we built a course called the

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<v Speaker 2>Bay of Dreams that also closed during the recession. So

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<v Speaker 2>that was a tough time.

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<v Speaker 1>That's gotta be a weird feeling when you spend a

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<v Speaker 1>ton of time and just put put so much work

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<v Speaker 1>into something and then have it never.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, especially with places like that, because you're

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<v Speaker 2>doing it for yourself a lot, because a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that you work on are super meaningful to you,

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<v Speaker 2>but no one ever notices. So the thing that really

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<v Speaker 2>helps is getting the chance to go back and just

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate the time that you spent on it. And to

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<v Speaker 2>not even have that chance is really frustrating with some

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<v Speaker 2>of these places because they're cool places to be and

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<v Speaker 2>spend time, you know, as a baseline, but then just

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<v Speaker 2>chance to kind of reminisce about your time out on

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<v Speaker 2>the course and what you were thinking about when you

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<v Speaker 2>did a certain thing, to just yeah, miss out on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Those are some of the best times. So's it's frustrating.

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<v Speaker 1>So the economic recession hits and your day job isn't

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<v Speaker 1>golf architect now, right, So you know what it was

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<v Speaker 1>the recession that caused you to not keep going and

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<v Speaker 1>keep pursuing architecture.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, indirectly. So the next project after Mexico that I

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<v Speaker 2>was offered was in China, and it was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>at that point that I was getting serious with my

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<v Speaker 2>now wife, and it was clear that we were going

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<v Speaker 2>to get married, and I wanted a family, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was thinking about going to China. And up until that point,

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<v Speaker 2>I had been able to go to projects and work

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<v Speaker 2>two weeks on, one week off, back and forth, or

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<v Speaker 2>they were in locations that I really wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>like abandoned. I mean, it was like a vacation. It

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<v Speaker 2>was amazing. So contemplating what it would be like to

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<v Speaker 2>go to China for nine months had me thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>what I needed to do to make sure that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have to take the next job that came up

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<v Speaker 2>all the time. Just what can I do to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of break the cycle of feeling like you have to

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<v Speaker 2>chase the next job. So at that time, my neighbor

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<v Speaker 2>growing up was starting a company in healthcare it in

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<v Speaker 2>the DC area, and he offered me work on a

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<v Speaker 2>part time basis. And the idea was that I could

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<v Speaker 2>take whatever golf jobs I wanted, go work on two week,

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<v Speaker 2>one month, whatever long basis, but then come back to

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<v Speaker 2>that job. And it seemed like the perfect thing because

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<v Speaker 2>then I could turn down things that I didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to do. So that actually worked out for a long time.

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<v Speaker 2>I worked all over at Madina and the Valley Club

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<v Speaker 2>in Santa Barbara, you know, several other courses, and even

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<v Speaker 2>I spent a year at stream Song, so that I

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<v Speaker 2>was still heavily involved in golf course architecture for a

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<v Speaker 2>while through twenty twelve twenty thirteen before really taking any

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<v Speaker 2>kind of break from it. But since then, I've just

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<v Speaker 2>been focused on doing things that are in the DC

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<v Speaker 2>area so that I can be fully devoted to golf

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<v Speaker 2>stuff when it comes up, but also be home with

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<v Speaker 2>my family.

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<v Speaker 1>So you're still working for the same company. Yes, that's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 2>It's great and it couldn't have been a better situation.

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<v Speaker 2>And really it's a full time job now and the

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that I've been able to do in golf has

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<v Speaker 2>been just on top of that, so when it does happen,

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<v Speaker 2>it's been kind of like a whirlwind time.

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<v Speaker 1>So one of the cool projects that you've gotten to

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<v Speaker 1>do in the DC area Schoolhouse n tell us a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about that project, how it came about, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know the golf course that's there now.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, So Schoolhouse nine was the idea of this guy,

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<v Speaker 2>Cliff Miller, whose family has been in the area of

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<v Speaker 2>this course, which is in Sperryville, Virginia and close to

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<v Speaker 2>the Shenandoah National Park. It's this beautiful adjacent to the

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<v Speaker 2>mountain setting. It's great and his family has been there

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<v Speaker 2>since pre Civil War. They have a homestead kind of

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<v Speaker 2>house there that he's now turned into a bed and

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<v Speaker 2>breakfast and he's like a local entrepreneur now with a

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<v Speaker 2>bed and breakfast is the first project. He then converted

0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.360
<v Speaker 2>his family's barn into a wedding venue, and then he

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<v Speaker 2>was looking for something new to do. And they have

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<v Speaker 2>this schoolhouse that they own and that they the time

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<v Speaker 2>operated a antique store out of it. It was this

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<v Speaker 2>really cool place you can go in. And then he

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<v Speaker 2>built a little addition with a restaurant in it in

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<v Speaker 2>a bar, and it's it's got a lot of atmosphere

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a cool place to hang out. And he's

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<v Speaker 2>a big golfer. And so he reached out looking to

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<v Speaker 2>build a part three course right as part of the

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<v Speaker 2>facility there.

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<v Speaker 1>Better way like you know, bar, restaurant, antique shop, a

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<v Speaker 1>little nine hole golf.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, bed and breakfast. Yeah, he's really trying to hit

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<v Speaker 2>the you know there.

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<v Speaker 1>Covering all bases of industry right forwards a recreation.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he is really like he's he's a smart

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<v Speaker 2>business guy, and I think he realizes that that area

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<v Speaker 2>is a place where people are coming through all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and and I think most of the other businesses were

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<v Speaker 2>focused on that aspect of people come there to see

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<v Speaker 2>the leaves in the fall, and to go to wineries

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<v Speaker 2>in the area and to hike in the Shenandoah National

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<v Speaker 2>Park and so everything there's kind of geared towards people

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<v Speaker 2>who like to do that sort of stuff, or places

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<v Speaker 2>where people can stop while they're doing it. The funny

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<v Speaker 2>thing is, though the golf course is so different from that,

0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.319
<v Speaker 2>it's really the thing that he cares about the most personally.

0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.079
<v Speaker 2>And he had actually called an architect to come out

0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:31.439
<v Speaker 2>and walk the site with him, and they had kind

0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.040
<v Speaker 2>of discussed different ideas and they got to the site

0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.559
<v Speaker 2>of the now ninth Green and the architect turned to

0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.880
<v Speaker 2>him and said, you know, I think this would be

0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:44.120
<v Speaker 2>a great place for an island green, and it's this

0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:48.640
<v Speaker 2>beautiful setting right by the Thornton River. It's this rushing

0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.280
<v Speaker 2>mountain stream. And Cliff turned to him and was like,

0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.240
<v Speaker 2>thank you for your time, but I think we've just

0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>got different ideas for this project. And at that point

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:06.439
<v Speaker 2>he had spent a lot of time abandoned dunes and

0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:08.679
<v Speaker 2>playing with his friends up there because he used to

0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:10.680
<v Speaker 2>live on the West coast, and so he called Tom

0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Doak and asked him if he would be interested. But

0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.240
<v Speaker 2>at that time, I think Tom had several projects going

0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.200
<v Speaker 2>across the country and felt like he was too busy

0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.680
<v Speaker 2>for it. And so Tom knew I lived in DC,

0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:26.520
<v Speaker 2>and he introduced me to Cliff and then we launched

0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.120
<v Speaker 2>into this. I don't know if you've ever had occasion

0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.880
<v Speaker 2>to deal with local government or local politics, but the

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.720
<v Speaker 2>actual process of getting the golf course built is its

0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:37.960
<v Speaker 2>own story. We can go into it if you want, but.

0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna leave the horror stories out of it.

0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.840
<v Speaker 2>But it was definitely a battle to convince people in

0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 2>this rural county of Virginia that golf would be something

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:54.120
<v Speaker 2>that might fit in and I think we did a

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.680
<v Speaker 2>good job of it in the end, and actually the

0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 2>golf course, I think is what we promised to be.

0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 1>So the thing I find most intriguing about schoolhouses the

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:09.800
<v Speaker 1>way it's maintained where it's not maintained, the way a

0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.800
<v Speaker 1>modern course would would look out if you know, the

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.480
<v Speaker 1>un irrigated fairways, irrigated greens and tea boxes. But it's

0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 1>more like, you know, Fisher's Island, one of the greatest

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.160
<v Speaker 1>courts in the world, maintains it this way. But if

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.080
<v Speaker 1>you PLoP this down into any municipality, they'd be like,

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 1>why is it brown? Like, tell me a little bit

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.600
<v Speaker 1>about Like the decision to do that was a big

0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.960
<v Speaker 1>decision and you know, long term, what are the effects

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 1>of doing that?

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, first, I think it was mostly practical because the

0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:47.160
<v Speaker 2>idea was Cliff would hire a superintendent, one person, maybe

0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.160
<v Speaker 2>not even full time, to maintain the course and that

0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.120
<v Speaker 2>would be it. There would be a cost of that

0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.080
<v Speaker 2>person's salary. Plus he went to auction to buy all

0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 2>of the equipment for maintaining the place, so we got

0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:02.680
<v Speaker 2>it all very cheap. But he would need a mechanic

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.600
<v Speaker 2>to maintain that sort of stuff. But basically that would

0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 2>be it. Those would be the major inputs, and he

0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't know what to expect in terms of play, so

0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:18.000
<v Speaker 2>he didn't want to go overboard, you know, with expectations

0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.560
<v Speaker 2>on the superintendent for what the course should be. So honestly,

0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.520
<v Speaker 2>when we started we said, well, what's what is the

0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 2>thing that we could do to kind of make that

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.720
<v Speaker 2>whole idea work. So it doesn't even have irrigation on

0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.960
<v Speaker 2>the teas. It is just irrigation at the greens. We

0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:41.000
<v Speaker 2>put in kind of a glorified sports field the irrigation system,

0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.800
<v Speaker 2>so it's not even your Toro rainbird sort of situation

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 2>it is. It is much more low tech than that.

0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 2>And the interesting thing is the course. Our idea basically

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>was that it would reflect the area right it is.

0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.119
<v Speaker 2>It is a field, and there's a little bit of

0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.239
<v Speaker 2>contour out there, and we built what I think are

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:13.000
<v Speaker 2>some cool golf features, but it's it's meant to blend

0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.520
<v Speaker 2>in right there there we built We planted a lot

0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.240
<v Speaker 2>of the interior portions of the course with kind of

0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:26.399
<v Speaker 2>longer meadow grasses and seasonal flowers, so it feels like

0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.560
<v Speaker 2>you're out in, you know, a meadow which was just

0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.399
<v Speaker 2>happened to be cut down. And honestly, the grass is

0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of coarse in a lot of the place, so

0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:40.640
<v Speaker 2>it's it feels like that. And then there are greens

0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.600
<v Speaker 2>that are in fantastic shape that are just kind of

0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 2>out there, and that's the one thing and then and

0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.280
<v Speaker 2>because of that, I think as a part three course,

0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 2>it actually plays pretty well. You just kind of drop

0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.199
<v Speaker 2>your ball anywhere around the tee. I mean you can

0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:57.960
<v Speaker 2>tee it up or just put it on the ground whatever.

0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.440
<v Speaker 2>It's not what you would typically considered tea. It's more

0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 2>like teeing off out of rough honestly. But then you know,

0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:07.440
<v Speaker 2>I think everything else works really well.

0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.520
<v Speaker 1>I imagine that the like, so the conditions changed throughout

0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.920
<v Speaker 1>the year, and you get seasonality and you get droughts

0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.320
<v Speaker 1>and you get rainy periods, and then the golf course

0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:19.560
<v Speaker 1>play is completely different.

0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean you get some scenarios where, yeah, if

0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.160
<v Speaker 2>you're thinking of rye or you know, an un irrigated

0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.800
<v Speaker 2>British links, you're getting stuff that's pretty close to that

0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the summer. And then in spring and fall,

0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.000
<v Speaker 2>when you get a little more rain, it turns greener

0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.399
<v Speaker 2>and it can play a little bit softer. But because

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:44.280
<v Speaker 2>we didn't we didn't import any materials to build the greens,

0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:49.080
<v Speaker 2>they're just native soil push up greens, and the greens

0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.480
<v Speaker 2>can be take on that same you know, profile of

0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.280
<v Speaker 2>being hard or soft as the surround. So it'll play

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.560
<v Speaker 2>pretty consistently. It's not like you're getting really soft greens

0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.800
<v Speaker 2>and and hard surrounds. You know, it's it's all of

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.200
<v Speaker 2>a piece, and it really makes for a good feel

0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 2>when you're out there. It's it's a kind of a

0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:08.879
<v Speaker 2>unique setting.

0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.040
<v Speaker 1>So from a cost side, this guy, you know, he

0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.680
<v Speaker 1>did it pretty bare bones and then it's a popular,

0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:17.640
<v Speaker 1>very successful business now.

0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, and and it all goes together. Like you said,

0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.439
<v Speaker 2>they've got the bar. You pay at the bar, so

0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:25.600
<v Speaker 2>they're kind of doubling up on as much of the

0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.160
<v Speaker 2>infrastructure as possible. If you're going to play the course,

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.200
<v Speaker 2>you just check in in the restaurant, pay your green

0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.760
<v Speaker 2>fee there. They've got a bunch of pull carts waiting

0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 2>out there for anybody who wants to take them. But

0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.080
<v Speaker 2>it's it's a really no cart, no carts, No, I mean,

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:44.000
<v Speaker 2>it's it's walking. It couldn't be And it's hard to like.

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.200
<v Speaker 2>As I've been out there and and introduced people who

0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:51.280
<v Speaker 2>don't normally play golf because it's a great beginner spot. Yeah,

0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.600
<v Speaker 2>they always ask kind of what do I need to

0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.520
<v Speaker 2>wear or what do I need to bring or you know,

0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't normally play, so tell me what I need

0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.399
<v Speaker 2>to know, but out or you honestly don't need to

0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:07.119
<v Speaker 2>know anything. It is as informal and friendly a place

0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:12.240
<v Speaker 2>to play as it gets, because there's no you're not

0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:17.160
<v Speaker 2>standing on tradition, right, It's it's it's just a place

0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.040
<v Speaker 2>for people who like golfer, want to try it, to play,

0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.919
<v Speaker 2>and they've got, you know, few clubs hanging around for

0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 2>anybody who wants to just take about and give it

0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:30.080
<v Speaker 2>a shot. And yeah, it couldn't be less formal. So

0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.840
<v Speaker 2>in that sense, it's it's it's really good because I

0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.560
<v Speaker 2>can take my son on the back of a poll

0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:38.840
<v Speaker 2>cart and he stands on there, he calls it his chariot,

0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.240
<v Speaker 2>rides around, you know, as I play, and then my

0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.760
<v Speaker 2>wife can stroll in the stroller with my daughter, and

0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:48.720
<v Speaker 2>it's really hard to beat.

0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.639
<v Speaker 1>It's an interesting greens, you know, strategic bunkering, you know

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:58.760
<v Speaker 1>where it. I think it's so funny. I sounds like

0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.440
<v Speaker 1>a great place to to like learn how to play

0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.200
<v Speaker 1>golf because it's welcoming, it's you know, it's very casual.

0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:09.480
<v Speaker 1>It's beginner friendly. You know, when it's dry, if you

0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 1>top it, the ball roll.

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And the key is that all of those things

0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.080
<v Speaker 2>are kind of the baseline, but the design of the

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.880
<v Speaker 2>course can be as sophisticated and interesting as you want

0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:27.399
<v Speaker 2>it to be. The golf course is designed to be

0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.440
<v Speaker 2>interesting for good players and kind of engage people who

0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:35.960
<v Speaker 2>are just starting. Yeah, it's the idea that at a

0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.760
<v Speaker 2>place like that's not spending any money on maintenance. Really

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.480
<v Speaker 2>there doesn't you know that you don't need to sacrifice

0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.440
<v Speaker 2>on the architectural interest And I think, you know, I

0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.879
<v Speaker 2>was able to do that out there. There's every greed

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.800
<v Speaker 2>is different depending on where the hole is located, which

0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I think is pretty important on a Part three course.

0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Otherwise it's going to feel like, especially for the owners

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.760
<v Speaker 2>out there playing all the time, I'm better change it

0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.919
<v Speaker 2>up depending on you know, the strategy for you know,

0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 2>it's not even a strategy, it's just like what you're

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.360
<v Speaker 2>trying to do with your t shot should be different

0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.240
<v Speaker 2>day to day. And tried to think of different green

0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.160
<v Speaker 2>ideas that would make that possible.

0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:22.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's fascinating. I talked about this maybe a

0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.080
<v Speaker 1>couple of podcasts ago I can't remember which one, but

0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:29.879
<v Speaker 1>I talked about how golf is in this weird place

0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.480
<v Speaker 1>with municipal golf where we show like if if we

0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.840
<v Speaker 1>take coffee, for example, if you had a non coffee

0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:39.639
<v Speaker 1>drinker and you wanted to get them into coffee, you

0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:42.639
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't take them to the and give them the blandest

0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:47.360
<v Speaker 1>and worst tasting coffee you know available, Like you give

0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.600
<v Speaker 1>them like the best tasting coffee which you know or

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:53.520
<v Speaker 1>the you know like the most and that coffee is

0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.200
<v Speaker 1>the best tasting for a beginner, but it's also got

0:22:56.200 --> 0:23:00.040
<v Speaker 1>the most sophistication for like a real coffee you know

0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.000
<v Speaker 1>addict that knows a lot about coffee. And it's the

0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:06.159
<v Speaker 1>same thing with golf. What happens is like, well it's

0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.960
<v Speaker 1>the opposite of what happens with golf is we take

0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.800
<v Speaker 1>our beginners to like the blandest, watered down version of

0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.800
<v Speaker 1>coffee that we could give them, and watered down version

0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:16.280
<v Speaker 1>of golf.

0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:21.480
<v Speaker 2>It's true. And I think that that metaphor really extends

0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.520
<v Speaker 2>into all of it. I mean, when when you're trying

0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.480
<v Speaker 2>that coffee, the you know, the beginner just knows it

0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:31.600
<v Speaker 2>tastes good, and the person who is really into coffee

0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.960
<v Speaker 2>can can understand the different notes that might be part

0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.040
<v Speaker 2>of it or whatever, especially if you're talking about wine.

0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:43.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, you get into that sort of what is

0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:47.040
<v Speaker 2>the what's the documentary about wine? The one that was

0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:51.200
<v Speaker 2>on I don't know, it's on Netflix and talks about

0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 2>like what people are it's Sam Alier or so I

0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:56.359
<v Speaker 2>think it's the name of it, right, and they're talking

0:23:56.400 --> 0:24:02.520
<v Speaker 2>about like, oh, I taste you know, desiccated dirt. You know,

0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.960
<v Speaker 2>this is decomposing worms, you know, or whatever, like rusted

0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:10.680
<v Speaker 2>tobacco or whatever. Who knows anyway, But but you can

0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:13.359
<v Speaker 2>look in golf architecture is a good, good thing. There's

0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:16.320
<v Speaker 2>so much depth to it if you want to look,

0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:20.200
<v Speaker 2>look for it and find it. But at the same time,

0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:24.960
<v Speaker 2>what's exciting for a good player is still exciting for

0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:29.000
<v Speaker 2>a beginner, and there can be you know, challenges that

0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:31.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of go across the spectrum and we'll get through

0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:34.280
<v Speaker 2>to somebody who's just starting. And I think that's the

0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:36.280
<v Speaker 2>great thing about it. There's no reason to start with

0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.000
<v Speaker 2>something that's boring. You could be on a driving range

0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:41.439
<v Speaker 2>learning to hit a solid shot, and the thrill of

0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>hitting a solid shot is always there, but it's the

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.000
<v Speaker 2>element of introducing something that you're trying to get over

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:50.040
<v Speaker 2>or around that gets you nervous. Or gets you thinking,

0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:54.280
<v Speaker 2>that really makes you start understanding the like the variety

0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:56.480
<v Speaker 2>of decisions you have to make, like how close do

0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:58.720
<v Speaker 2>I play to this? And is it worth it? Or

0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:03.359
<v Speaker 2>just can I execute something that you know has a

0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:05.639
<v Speaker 2>little bit writing on it or whatever. Those are the

0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:08.800
<v Speaker 2>things that make golf really fun and take you from

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm just trying to hit a ball solidly to I'm

0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:13.719
<v Speaker 2>playing a course.

0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you're having to make decisions. Is at that

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.320
<v Speaker 1>idea of making a decision and then executing on the

0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.679
<v Speaker 1>decision you make that makes golf so cool. It's not

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:25.840
<v Speaker 1>a game of just numbers. It's not a game of

0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 1>just pure execution, because there's you know, hundreds of decisions

0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:32.520
<v Speaker 1>and then the mental aspect of convincing yourself that you

0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:35.399
<v Speaker 1>made the right decision before you hit the shots. So

0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:39.480
<v Speaker 1>we're going to talk about East Potomac, which you did

0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:46.280
<v Speaker 1>your graduate school thesis on which an incredible read. I've

0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:48.840
<v Speaker 1>been riveted by it. But one of the things I

0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.639
<v Speaker 1>wanted to talk about before was come came before we

0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:54.680
<v Speaker 1>talk about East Potomac. Came from your thesis. You did

0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:57.439
<v Speaker 1>a study you kind of did like this study and

0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:04.800
<v Speaker 1>synopsis of three very very successful municipal golf courses Bethpage,

0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:10.760
<v Speaker 1>Black Tory Pines and then the Old Course, And I'd

0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:13.400
<v Speaker 1>love for you to kind of just walk through what

0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:16.680
<v Speaker 1>you learned about each of them, and you pulled from

0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:19.800
<v Speaker 1>each of them, and then you know kind of the

0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:23.159
<v Speaker 1>I think that goes really well in with your Schoolhouse

0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:24.560
<v Speaker 1>nine and what you did there.

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, I think, And I picked those really purposefully because

0:26:29.040 --> 0:26:32.760
<v Speaker 2>they're all well known first of all, but beyond that,

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:36.679
<v Speaker 2>I think they do a good job of explaining what

0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:42.080
<v Speaker 2>I think engages all levels of golfer and and what's

0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:50.040
<v Speaker 2>inclusionary versus exclusionary. For the old courses. The starting point

0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:55.880
<v Speaker 2>as it is in like all these discussions, it's it's

0:26:55.920 --> 0:27:00.359
<v Speaker 2>this undefined open field of play where they're there's all

0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:04.160
<v Speaker 2>these hazards and you get to choose how you want

0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:07.879
<v Speaker 2>to play it. But it's not dictating a certain type

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:12.520
<v Speaker 2>of golf, and it's definitely accepting to all kinds of shots.

0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:14.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's a time I studied abroad in Saint

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:18.320
<v Speaker 2>Andrews my junior and there were times where I would

0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:22.840
<v Speaker 2>purposefully try to hit shots thin or even top them

0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:26.439
<v Speaker 2>into the wind, because I knew that was probably the

0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:31.240
<v Speaker 2>best way to get around, and it just it encourages

0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:33.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot of creativity like that. But I guess the

0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:37.240
<v Speaker 2>point of even saying that is that you could top

0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:39.480
<v Speaker 2>your ball around Sat Andrews, and if you're thinking about

0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:42.760
<v Speaker 2>where you're going to put your shot, you can do it.

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:45.920
<v Speaker 2>As long as you're thinking about it. There's a lot

0:27:45.960 --> 0:27:48.560
<v Speaker 2>out there to avoid, but there's room to avoid it,

0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:52.480
<v Speaker 2>and everything has its consequence, but if you're playing your game,

0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:54.840
<v Speaker 2>you can figure out a way to do it. The

0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:57.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, if you're going to take Tory Pines as

0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:01.720
<v Speaker 2>the the opposite end of the spectrum, it's just so

0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:06.639
<v Speaker 2>much more prescriptive, and it's geared towards one thing, being

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.920
<v Speaker 2>hard for pros. For the most part. The way it's

0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:13.000
<v Speaker 2>maintained is kind of and I think this is a

0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:15.880
<v Speaker 2>little bit of just the nature of places that host

0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:20.200
<v Speaker 2>big tournaments, but they they want to preserve that reputation

0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:22.479
<v Speaker 2>of being hard enough to have a US Open. So

0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:25.359
<v Speaker 2>the second you have an identity, right the second you

0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:27.800
<v Speaker 2>have US Open, the next thing you know, your golf

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:30.280
<v Speaker 2>course is being maintained like there's a US Open there

0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:33.600
<v Speaker 2>every week. And Torrey Pines is a good example. The

0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:37.240
<v Speaker 2>rough is thick, the greens aren't accepting of shots from

0:28:38.480 --> 0:28:43.120
<v Speaker 2>from the rough. It's all an aerial game. And it

0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:46.400
<v Speaker 2>also costs a lot to maintain that right deep bunkers,

0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:50.960
<v Speaker 2>so it's not a lot of fun. And actually, the

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:54.600
<v Speaker 2>interesting thing at the time that they were they had

0:28:54.640 --> 0:28:58.440
<v Speaker 2>just renovated the South course and they were thinking about

0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:01.560
<v Speaker 2>doing the same to the North course. The town actually

0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:04.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of revolted against doing it because this was.

0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:08.959
<v Speaker 1>The Rees Jones renovation of the North Course, you know,

0:29:09.000 --> 0:29:11.680
<v Speaker 1>exactly recently, same team was going to do it, the

0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:14.680
<v Speaker 1>exact same thing was going to be done, and the

0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:18.360
<v Speaker 1>city and the people who were in charge of making

0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:21.360
<v Speaker 1>the decision basically said they didn't want it because the

0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:24.040
<v Speaker 1>South course was hard enough and they wanted a place

0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:26.080
<v Speaker 1>that'd be a little easier and more friendly. And what

0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:29.920
<v Speaker 1>you saw was that the North Course at the time

0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:33.880
<v Speaker 1>was the preferred course of the locals. So you know,

0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:37.440
<v Speaker 1>the South course was the was the was the tourist

0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:40.080
<v Speaker 1>trap exactly. Could say, you know, it's like the great,

0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:42.920
<v Speaker 1>the great restaurant in town that the locals all go

0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:45.680
<v Speaker 1>eat at, but the big name restaurant where all the

0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:46.240
<v Speaker 1>tourists go.

0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:49.160
<v Speaker 2>It's true. And and because of that because people are

0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:52.320
<v Speaker 2>traveling to play a US open course. It just feeds

0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:57.480
<v Speaker 2>into it, right that that is the thing that's and

0:29:57.480 --> 0:30:01.920
<v Speaker 2>and it just becomes it. It becomes a thing that

0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:08.400
<v Speaker 2>is not enjoyable for everyday play. And that was the

0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:12.120
<v Speaker 2>contrast I was trying to draw between the old course

0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:14.840
<v Speaker 2>andry Pines and beth Page is kind of a middle

0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:19.479
<v Speaker 2>ground between the two. It has the same problem where

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:22.440
<v Speaker 2>its identity is being a very difficult course, but it's

0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:26.920
<v Speaker 2>also part of a complex of courses that provide more

0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:31.920
<v Speaker 2>of a spectrum of beginner to very good golfer. And

0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:34.400
<v Speaker 2>it's got the sign by the first t you know

0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:37.640
<v Speaker 2>this course is meant for or I think it's like

0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:38.680
<v Speaker 2>not for beginners.

0:30:38.680 --> 0:30:40.000
<v Speaker 1>I think it's like an expert player.

0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:42.760
<v Speaker 2>It's like a black diamond whatever the black diamond sign

0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:44.840
<v Speaker 2>is at a ski resort. It's the equivalent on a

0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:51.440
<v Speaker 2>golf course. But there are people camping out in their

0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:53.720
<v Speaker 2>cars to play beth Page for a reason because it's

0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:58.000
<v Speaker 2>a really interesting design over a great ground. You it's

0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:03.440
<v Speaker 2>killing hast course and you could debate how well the

0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:08.920
<v Speaker 2>restoration was done there, but there's certainly something about it

0:31:08.960 --> 0:31:12.520
<v Speaker 2>that makes people keep coming back and it's successful. Even

0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:15.640
<v Speaker 2>when it was even pre restoration, people were camping out

0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:17.239
<v Speaker 2>in their cars, and I think that was the main

0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 2>important the thesis was that this was an incredibly popular

0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:25.960
<v Speaker 2>place before it hosted the US Open, before it had

0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Reese Jones do the redesign, while it was you know,

0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:34.200
<v Speaker 2>bare dirt in the roughs and you know, just generally

0:31:34.320 --> 0:31:38.960
<v Speaker 2>not great conditioning. The reason being because the design was fantastic,

0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:40.960
<v Speaker 2>and there's not that many places where you can get

0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.120
<v Speaker 2>a fantastic design and not be a member of a

0:31:44.160 --> 0:31:44.760
<v Speaker 2>country club.

0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:49.600
<v Speaker 1>And it was something where even though most golfers probably

0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:51.920
<v Speaker 1>walked off and couldn't tell you what they loved about

0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 1>the design, they knew they love something exactly.

0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:59.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, golf courses aren't interchangeable, right. There's a reason

0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:02.960
<v Speaker 2>why people are going back to beth Page and driving

0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and sleeping in their car, and it's because even if

0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:09.760
<v Speaker 2>they can't explain it, they know it's a special place

0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:13.240
<v Speaker 2>and there's something that you can't get in other places.

0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:16.160
<v Speaker 2>And if you could get it everywhere, they would just

0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:18.800
<v Speaker 2>go and play their you know, their local course, but yeah.

0:32:18.680 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 1>The one that's closest to them. It's just like restaurants.

0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:25.120
<v Speaker 2>There's a reason that you go somewhere exactly.

0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:27.920
<v Speaker 1>It's something I never really thought about, but like, there's

0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:30.920
<v Speaker 1>a reason you go to this Italian place over this Italian.

0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:33.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're not the same and people, and it comes

0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 2>down to so many factors. It could be just the

0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:43.640
<v Speaker 2>chef is really you know, thoughtful and thinking about doing

0:32:43.680 --> 0:32:48.320
<v Speaker 2>something that provides a different taste or experience or whatever

0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:53.120
<v Speaker 2>it is. But it's about doing something that you know,

0:32:53.280 --> 0:32:56.400
<v Speaker 2>you put a lot of effort and and you know,

0:32:56.480 --> 0:32:58.800
<v Speaker 2>thought into, but it shows on the back end, whereas

0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:01.040
<v Speaker 2>if you're not put that effort and thought it too,

0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:03.440
<v Speaker 2>it goes to like a golf course, like you were

0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:09.200
<v Speaker 2>saying earlier, the you know, like a superintendent by themselves

0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:11.760
<v Speaker 2>can make a huge difference in the course. That's almost

0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:15.240
<v Speaker 2>like they're like a chef all the time, you know,

0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:19.800
<v Speaker 2>in that sense. I don't know if that's a good analogy.

0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's almost. Maybe they're the they're like the cook.

0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:26.120
<v Speaker 1>They might not have chosen the menu items, but they're

0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:27.520
<v Speaker 1>the ones that execute the menu.

0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:30.080
<v Speaker 2>If you have somebody thinking about it, they can make

0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:32.160
<v Speaker 2>it a lot better. Yeah, it's really true.

0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:35.800
<v Speaker 1>It's New York is blessed with I mean they got

0:33:35.800 --> 0:33:39.200
<v Speaker 1>three courses at best page they are telling has two

0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:40.600
<v Speaker 1>and a half right.

0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:43.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, And it's hard to even keep track anymore because

0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:45.600
<v Speaker 2>they're like spread over multiple courses.

0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:50.080
<v Speaker 1>And the original thirty six at Tory was Billy Bell.

0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:53.560
<v Speaker 1>But you know, they're blessed with a great municipal facility

0:33:53.600 --> 0:33:57.720
<v Speaker 1>there and in so few towns have that. If the

0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Chicago's perfect example in here, it's like there's no real

0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:05.600
<v Speaker 1>good municipal option in Chicago, in the city of Chicago

0:34:05.640 --> 0:34:10.480
<v Speaker 1>to play golf, Like, oh, you know, And I think

0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:14.040
<v Speaker 1>that's the story for more cities than not. And you're

0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:17.000
<v Speaker 1>talking about these are the responsible these are the places

0:34:17.000 --> 0:34:20.600
<v Speaker 1>where we're introducing the game. You were introduced to East

0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:25.319
<v Speaker 1>Potomac as a kid, when you know it was your

0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:28.279
<v Speaker 1>convenience store, gas station, coffee.

0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly.

0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:33.560
<v Speaker 1>And but in reality, East Potomac, and this is what

0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:36.279
<v Speaker 1>your whole thesis is about, was wont so much more?

0:34:36.600 --> 0:34:40.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean the growing up there. Like I said,

0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:43.960
<v Speaker 2>the maybe the entire reason I'm interested in golf courses

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:47.600
<v Speaker 2>is because East Potomac is so bland and other courses

0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:51.160
<v Speaker 2>are interesting in comparison. It kind of blows me away.

0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:56.240
<v Speaker 2>The history of the course, the great design that existed there,

0:34:56.960 --> 0:34:59.239
<v Speaker 2>and the path that it took to get to where

0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:03.719
<v Speaker 2>it is today, and the story is fantastic. I mean,

0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:08.560
<v Speaker 2>the just to like start from the beginning, the entire

0:35:08.640 --> 0:35:13.239
<v Speaker 2>idea was to develop a facility that would be a

0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:15.480
<v Speaker 2>model for the rest of the country to follow for

0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:19.319
<v Speaker 2>active recreation. In Washington, d C. Part of that plan

0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:23.600
<v Speaker 2>was to have and what year was this Around nineteen

0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:26.759
<v Speaker 2>seventeen the course was started the plans for the it's

0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:29.520
<v Speaker 2>called the McMillan Plan for Washington, d C. Which included

0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:32.800
<v Speaker 2>much more than just recreation, but it included kind of

0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:36.760
<v Speaker 2>a mapping and sighting of all the major memorial sites

0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:40.000
<v Speaker 2>in the parks in the city. And as part of

0:35:40.040 --> 0:35:43.120
<v Speaker 2>the parks there was going to be active recreation like hiking,

0:35:43.160 --> 0:35:48.040
<v Speaker 2>in tennis and golf, and so the sighting of the

0:35:48.040 --> 0:35:50.680
<v Speaker 2>golf courses ended up being kind of lumped into the

0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:55.120
<v Speaker 2>whole thing. But the interesting thing for Washington, d C.

0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:59.319
<v Speaker 2>Was they were trying to be trying to plan for

0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:02.600
<v Speaker 2>visitors from all over the country seeing these major memorials

0:36:03.560 --> 0:36:06.160
<v Speaker 2>and creating park space that's not just dedicated to the

0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:08.680
<v Speaker 2>people that live there, but to the country as a whole.

0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:13.080
<v Speaker 2>And so the the interesting thought there was like, how

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:16.640
<v Speaker 2>do we make the stuff that's actually designed for the

0:36:16.719 --> 0:36:19.280
<v Speaker 2>locals to use kind of live up to that standard

0:36:19.360 --> 0:36:22.600
<v Speaker 2>and what do we need to design? And they thought

0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:27.080
<v Speaker 2>kind of they thought big about it. They thought, well,

0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:30.200
<v Speaker 2>we should, we should show the rest of the country

0:36:30.320 --> 0:36:34.040
<v Speaker 2>what's possible when it comes to active recreation, and golf

0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:36.399
<v Speaker 2>course just ended up being like the most visible part

0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:36.640
<v Speaker 2>of that.

0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:40.160
<v Speaker 1>And that's like an amazing thing is that they were

0:36:40.280 --> 0:36:43.200
<v Speaker 1>early trendsetters here. This was it right at the beginning

0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:47.359
<v Speaker 1>of municipal golf and just the thought was, let's make

0:36:47.400 --> 0:36:49.440
<v Speaker 1>this as good as we can possibly make.

0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:52.960
<v Speaker 2>It exactly yeah, I mean there were only municipal courses

0:36:53.400 --> 0:36:55.360
<v Speaker 2>in a few other cities on the East Coast of

0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:58.239
<v Speaker 2>that time, and it was starting to get to the

0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:01.600
<v Speaker 2>point where DC looked at itself and said, New York

0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:06.240
<v Speaker 2>and Philadelphia and Boston have these great courses, municipal courses.

0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:08.600
<v Speaker 2>And at the time they were great. They have their

0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:11.359
<v Speaker 2>own stories to go with them. But do you see,

0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:14.600
<v Speaker 2>there wasn't anything period, and they thought it was just

0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:19.000
<v Speaker 2>such you know, a whack, It was a lacking situation

0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:22.400
<v Speaker 2>for the city that they needed to rectify, and that

0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:24.759
<v Speaker 2>they weren't just going to build anything. They were going

0:37:24.840 --> 0:37:27.760
<v Speaker 2>to show the rest of the country what municipal golf

0:37:27.760 --> 0:37:31.040
<v Speaker 2>can be and also offer it at at the time

0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:35.040
<v Speaker 2>it sounds insanely affordable. Now obviously I think it cost

0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:37.840
<v Speaker 2>twenty five cents when it opened, but it was actually

0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:41.000
<v Speaker 2>an affordable price at the time too, and they wanted

0:37:41.040 --> 0:37:42.759
<v Speaker 2>that to be a big component of it.

0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 1>So the land is East Potomac Park. It's right next

0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:50.080
<v Speaker 1>to West Potomac Park, which has all of the national

0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:55.080
<v Speaker 1>monuments in it. So you've got the Lincoln memorials over there,

0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:59.160
<v Speaker 1>the blank and on the Washington Monument.

0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:02.879
<v Speaker 2>Yea Jeffers Memorial connects to the White House, the mall

0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:07.040
<v Speaker 2>connects to the Capitol. It's it's the that whole space

0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:11.799
<v Speaker 2>is contiguous with park. It is, you know, not a

0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:15.239
<v Speaker 2>stretch to say it is an immediate neighbor of all

0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:19.160
<v Speaker 2>of that. And and the idea was, again, these are

0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:24.160
<v Speaker 2>grand places for the country and the golf course should

0:38:24.200 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 2>be an example, a grand example for the country of

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:33.640
<v Speaker 2>what what the municipal governments can do to introduce public

0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:34.879
<v Speaker 2>recreation facilities.

0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:40.440
<v Speaker 1>So flat, flat land, pretty pretty modest, nothing crazy, and

0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:44.960
<v Speaker 1>they hired Walter Travis. Yep, who's Walter Travis? Where does

0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:47.279
<v Speaker 1>he fit in? At this point in his career.

0:38:47.640 --> 0:38:52.279
<v Speaker 2>Walter Travis was an amazing golfer in his own right.

0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:56.040
<v Speaker 2>He won the US Amateur and the British Amateur. One

0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:59.960
<v Speaker 2>of the best golfers in history, and was extremely well

0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:03.680
<v Speaker 2>known at the time and had trans transferred his talents

0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:07.200
<v Speaker 2>from playing golf actively to being a golf course architect.

0:39:07.880 --> 0:39:12.200
<v Speaker 2>At that time, he had built Garden City and Aquanic

0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:15.759
<v Speaker 2>in Vermont and was kind of at the height of

0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:19.799
<v Speaker 2>his powers as a golf architect. He was working at

0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:22.239
<v Speaker 2>the time at Columbia Country Club in Washington, d C.

0:39:23.120 --> 0:39:26.719
<v Speaker 2>And Walter Harbin, who was a member there kind of

0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:30.560
<v Speaker 2>an influential guy in the Washington DC golf scene, recommended

0:39:30.600 --> 0:39:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Walter Travis to the people in the Washington d C

0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:40.879
<v Speaker 2>Planning in a group to design the course City's Potomac Park.

0:39:42.200 --> 0:39:46.040
<v Speaker 2>And he took a look at the course and was like, well,

0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:49.600
<v Speaker 2>this is reclaimed land from the Potomac River. It's relatively flat,

0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:54.759
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of shaped in this triangular shape going downstream

0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:58.240
<v Speaker 2>in the river. It kind of looks like St Andrew's. Honestly,

0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:00.399
<v Speaker 2>if you look at it in an aerial he was.

0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:03.560
<v Speaker 1>The first in Walter Travis and his player. He was

0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:05.120
<v Speaker 1>the first American to win the British Am.

0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:08.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, first American. Oh no, he's not an American, he's Australia. Yeah,

0:40:08.800 --> 0:40:11.319
<v Speaker 2>but he was the first non British person to win

0:40:11.719 --> 0:40:16.560
<v Speaker 2>the British Am. So he was a big deal for

0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:20.880
<v Speaker 2>doing that. And he was a naturalized American citizen at

0:40:20.880 --> 0:40:22.800
<v Speaker 2>that point, so I don't know what you can count

0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:26.440
<v Speaker 2>him as an American, but but yeah, he was. He

0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:29.799
<v Speaker 2>looked at the site and he said, you know what,

0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:32.359
<v Speaker 2>this is the perfect place to build a reversible golf course.

0:40:32.360 --> 0:40:35.160
<v Speaker 2>And he was he was a proponent of reversible courses.

0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:42.680
<v Speaker 2>Why right, Well, because especially in this in this case,

0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:45.520
<v Speaker 2>they're a great way to create variety day to day

0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.520
<v Speaker 2>and also spread out the wear and tear from a

0:40:48.560 --> 0:40:51.400
<v Speaker 2>maintenance perspective. And when you think about how that applies

0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:56.040
<v Speaker 2>to a municipal course, where the idea is you're going

0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:58.920
<v Speaker 2>to get a lot of people around, it's open to everybody.

0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:01.040
<v Speaker 2>And at the time there were a lot of avenues

0:41:01.040 --> 0:41:02.520
<v Speaker 2>to play golf if you weren't a member of a

0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:05.719
<v Speaker 2>country club. So they were planning for a lot of

0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:09.760
<v Speaker 2>golf and the idea of a reversible you know, course

0:41:09.960 --> 0:41:13.040
<v Speaker 2>makes a ton of sense in that scenario where day

0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:16.320
<v Speaker 2>to day the way people walk around the place is different,

0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:20.120
<v Speaker 2>and so the wear patterns that in a different situation

0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:23.920
<v Speaker 2>might cause maintenance problems over time, you know, you can

0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:28.000
<v Speaker 2>spread those out and keep the entire place in better shape.

0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:31.480
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, if you play one day in

0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:33.839
<v Speaker 2>one direction and then you play the next day in

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:36.280
<v Speaker 2>the other direction, it feels like a totally different course.

0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:40.680
<v Speaker 2>So you get a lot, uh, you know, a lot

0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:42.480
<v Speaker 2>of bang for your buck in that scenario.

0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:47.520
<v Speaker 1>So then so then he starts building he originally they

0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:51.640
<v Speaker 1>just did nine, right, yep. So what was the result

0:41:51.760 --> 0:41:54.719
<v Speaker 1>of the first nine in terms of like, you know,

0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:58.080
<v Speaker 1>how was it received and what was the course like?

0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Right, So it was always intended to be holes. They

0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:04.120
<v Speaker 2>built nine at first because their budget allowed. That opened

0:42:04.160 --> 0:42:09.919
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen twenty and it was overwhelmingly popular. Like I said,

0:42:09.920 --> 0:42:16.520
<v Speaker 2>it cost twenty five cents. They had lines, the course

0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:21.080
<v Speaker 2>was full of people all the time. The management at

0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:25.000
<v Speaker 2>the time had never managed the golf course. They did

0:42:25.000 --> 0:42:28.880
<v Speaker 2>not know what they were doing. They had to eventually

0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:33.840
<v Speaker 2>turn it over to concessioners. The National Park Service is

0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:39.200
<v Speaker 2>the actual umbrella overseer of the property, so their whole

0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:42.880
<v Speaker 2>system of putting people in charge of their various facilities

0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:45.520
<v Speaker 2>is called the concession system. So they picked somebody to

0:42:45.560 --> 0:42:52.360
<v Speaker 2>take over, and this guy Leffler was the concessioner. He

0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:54.880
<v Speaker 2>had never managed a golf course, but realized pretty quickly

0:42:54.920 --> 0:42:58.160
<v Speaker 2>that it was so popular he could make a ton

0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:02.759
<v Speaker 2>of money doing it, and so he streamlined everything and

0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:06.720
<v Speaker 2>then actually raised the money to build the remaining nine

0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:10.160
<v Speaker 2>and part of that money was raised from the government.

0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.520
<v Speaker 2>They need to kind of continue the investment that had

0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:15.200
<v Speaker 2>been promised to the course. So the first nine was

0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:20.160
<v Speaker 2>received so well that the USGA was looking for a

0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:26.120
<v Speaker 2>site for its second Public Links tournament, and they said,

0:43:26.120 --> 0:43:29.240
<v Speaker 2>if you build the other nine, we'll host it here basically,

0:43:29.239 --> 0:43:32.719
<v Speaker 2>and so the USGA chows East Potomac, which kind of

0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:36.600
<v Speaker 2>was the impetus for finishing the second nine as quickly

0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:38.600
<v Speaker 2>as they as. They ended up doing it. So in

0:43:38.680 --> 0:43:42.600
<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenty three they hosted the second ever USGA Public

0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Links Tournament at East Potomac, which was a great success

0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:51.320
<v Speaker 2>and the course hosted over one hundred thousand rounds pretty

0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:55.360
<v Speaker 2>quickly after that, you know, going forward, and it was overrun.

0:43:55.440 --> 0:43:56.440
<v Speaker 2>It was really successful.

0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:59.560
<v Speaker 1>If in a short way, how would you describe, like,

0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:03.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, just the way the golf course played in

0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:05.960
<v Speaker 1>terms of, you know, what were the core features of

0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:09.279
<v Speaker 1>it and and you know how did it kind of

0:44:09.360 --> 0:44:13.719
<v Speaker 1>challenge great players but play obviously be wildly popular with

0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:14.600
<v Speaker 1>the beginner.

0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:18.360
<v Speaker 2>Right, So I would say the key elements where it

0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:20.200
<v Speaker 2>was pretty open, so you could hit the ball all

0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:23.319
<v Speaker 2>over the place and you'd find your ball, but it

0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:27.320
<v Speaker 2>was extremely well trapped. This course had hundreds of bunkers,

0:44:27.880 --> 0:44:31.080
<v Speaker 2>and the bunkers faced multiple directions, so they ended up

0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:34.719
<v Speaker 2>being clustered where you'd have maybe two bunkers facing one

0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:36.440
<v Speaker 2>way and two bunkers facing the other way.

0:44:36.480 --> 0:44:38.200
<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of like a principal's nose.

0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it would be the king of Principal's nose facilities,

0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Like there's never been more principal's noses in one place

0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:50.960
<v Speaker 2>than any Spotomac. And then the greens were Walter Travis

0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:54.800
<v Speaker 2>style greens, which, if you're not familiar with them, involve

0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:58.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of contour, little ledges, a lot of really

0:44:58.680 --> 0:45:04.399
<v Speaker 2>natural looking move and they're not. They're not tame at all.

0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:08.080
<v Speaker 2>And so what he did was he actually had, for

0:45:08.160 --> 0:45:11.839
<v Speaker 2>the most part greens that faced one you know, half

0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:14.520
<v Speaker 2>the green would face one direction of play and the

0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:17.160
<v Speaker 2>other half would be tilted towards the other direction, So

0:45:17.200 --> 0:45:19.640
<v Speaker 2>you'd have an up and over in the middle.

0:45:19.960 --> 0:45:22.000
<v Speaker 1>And then that backpen would be running away.

0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:26.640
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, and and then you'd you'd be running away

0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:29.400
<v Speaker 2>generally to fairway on the other side, so it's not

0:45:29.480 --> 0:45:31.279
<v Speaker 2>going to kill you. Going over would be a good

0:45:31.280 --> 0:45:36.680
<v Speaker 2>play in those experient But there still exists that Walter

0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Travis's original plans for the greens, and the plans are fascinating.

0:45:41.400 --> 0:45:46.480
<v Speaker 2>There's they're well, they're easily rebuilt where you know, if

0:45:46.480 --> 0:45:50.680
<v Speaker 2>you if you wanted to, there's nothing. The whole course

0:45:50.760 --> 0:45:53.680
<v Speaker 2>is relatively flat, so you're not going to encounter a

0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:56.080
<v Speaker 2>situation where you like, you can't get that back. But

0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:04.120
<v Speaker 2>there's there's some really pretty intricate and interesting greens that

0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:07.200
<v Speaker 2>I feel like they're just waiting to be, you know,

0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:08.280
<v Speaker 2>put back in place.

0:46:08.480 --> 0:46:11.279
<v Speaker 1>Out there a second nine Goods built, they host the

0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:14.520
<v Speaker 1>publinks and this place is just a rousing success.

0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:14.879
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:17.359
<v Speaker 1>What happens after this?

0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:21.200
<v Speaker 2>So really kind of like the story of a lot

0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:25.440
<v Speaker 2>of golf in the United States. The Great Depression had

0:46:25.520 --> 0:46:29.880
<v Speaker 2>its effect on golf, though because it was the only

0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:33.880
<v Speaker 2>public facility in the DC area, it actually didn't affect

0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:38.600
<v Speaker 2>it as badly as you'd think. In fact, the real

0:46:38.840 --> 0:46:41.360
<v Speaker 2>downfall of the course seems to have come from the

0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:45.640
<v Speaker 2>concessioner himself, who was interested in getting as many people

0:46:45.680 --> 0:46:48.919
<v Speaker 2>around the course as he could. In interest of that,

0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:53.759
<v Speaker 2>he started simplifying the course, He started flattening greens, and

0:46:54.560 --> 0:46:58.480
<v Speaker 2>he was the person who eventually made the course go

0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.640
<v Speaker 2>only in one direction. Basically did as much as he

0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:04.520
<v Speaker 2>could to increase the pace of play so that he

0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:06.680
<v Speaker 2>could get as many people around the course as possible.

0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:09.560
<v Speaker 2>He also built a driving range on the on the site,

0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:13.479
<v Speaker 2>which eliminated a couple holes on the original course because there.

0:47:13.400 --> 0:47:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Was so after the Travis eighteen, they built a Flynn

0:47:17.239 --> 0:47:21.080
<v Speaker 1>nine right, and then they built another nine ye a

0:47:21.200 --> 0:47:26.799
<v Speaker 1>short course, so to say. And then that's when he

0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:29.640
<v Speaker 1>decided the driving range. He needed a new driving range.

0:47:29.800 --> 0:47:32.359
<v Speaker 2>Yep. Yeah, So the original driving range was this kind

0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:38.040
<v Speaker 2>of small, narrow affair on the edge of the property

0:47:38.440 --> 0:47:41.480
<v Speaker 2>and it didn't, you know, intersect with the golf at all,

0:47:41.520 --> 0:47:45.280
<v Speaker 2>and it was I think an afterthought at first. As

0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:48.160
<v Speaker 2>as golf grew in popularity and it became the place

0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:50.640
<v Speaker 2>to learn, which is a great thing, the need for

0:47:50.680 --> 0:47:54.400
<v Speaker 2>a range that that could host more people kind of grew.

0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:59.480
<v Speaker 2>So his solution was actually to eliminate the ninth hole

0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:02.760
<v Speaker 2>on one of the original nines, and then it also

0:48:02.800 --> 0:48:07.319
<v Speaker 2>eliminated a swath of the Flynn course, and by doing that,

0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:14.680
<v Speaker 2>the ripple effect on both designs was huge ended up

0:48:14.719 --> 0:48:18.200
<v Speaker 2>losing I think at the time the range was built.

0:48:18.719 --> 0:48:21.360
<v Speaker 2>That was actually the time that the golf course stopped

0:48:21.400 --> 0:48:25.279
<v Speaker 2>being reversible, So this would be mid nineteen thirties, so

0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:29.000
<v Speaker 2>the course lasted as reversible for fifteen years or more.

0:48:29.760 --> 0:48:31.399
<v Speaker 1>How many rounds were they doing a year?

0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:35.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh they're doing, you know, eighty two one hundred thousand

0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:40.439
<v Speaker 2>rounds a year, which sounds unbelieva golfing. Yeah, season, Yeah,

0:48:40.440 --> 0:48:46.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean it was arousing success. And unfortunately the golf

0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:48.040
<v Speaker 2>course seems to have been a victim of its own

0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:52.080
<v Speaker 2>success because it was so popular, they weren't able to

0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:54.920
<v Speaker 2>accommodate as many people as they'd like on the course.

0:48:54.960 --> 0:48:57.640
<v Speaker 2>So the concessioner thought, well, let's get as many people

0:48:57.680 --> 0:49:01.080
<v Speaker 2>around as possible, So he started eliminating bunkers and flattening

0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:05.120
<v Speaker 2>greens and eventually building a driving range to host people

0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:08.840
<v Speaker 2>who are just getting started, which changed the course for

0:49:08.880 --> 0:49:13.880
<v Speaker 2>the worse and then eventually ended the reversibility aspect.

0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:17.600
<v Speaker 1>So how did it post driving range? You know, it's

0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:21.120
<v Speaker 1>still a very popular course today, even devoid of any

0:49:21.920 --> 0:49:25.400
<v Speaker 1>you know interest, Yeah, post driving range and post all

0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:28.279
<v Speaker 1>these changes. What you know kind of happened to the

0:49:28.280 --> 0:49:31.440
<v Speaker 1>golf course over the years is did the popularity? You know,

0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:33.880
<v Speaker 1>it's not doing eighty thousand rounds a year anymore, is it?

0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:38.920
<v Speaker 2>I think the total on the three courses there, so

0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:43.160
<v Speaker 2>there's an eighteen whole course, the Blue course, nine hole

0:49:43.200 --> 0:49:46.000
<v Speaker 2>White course which is executive length, and nine hole par

0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:50.880
<v Speaker 2>three course. Read they did a total of about ninety

0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:53.840
<v Speaker 2>thousand rounds last year or in twenty sixteen.

0:49:54.960 --> 0:49:59.200
<v Speaker 1>So the three courses combined now do less than the original.

0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:00.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, of course it.

0:50:00.719 --> 0:50:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And what was fascinating is that's with beginners, you know,

0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:07.880
<v Speaker 1>outdated equipment.

0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:11.120
<v Speaker 2>Reading. The stories about people playing the original course when

0:50:11.160 --> 0:50:14.759
<v Speaker 2>it was that crowded are kind of hilarious because, as

0:50:14.800 --> 0:50:19.400
<v Speaker 2>you'd expect, there are people complaining about the number of

0:50:19.440 --> 0:50:22.200
<v Speaker 2>beginners and the fact that they didn't know golf etiquette

0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.040
<v Speaker 2>and they're slowing everybody down. I'm sure the pace of

0:50:25.080 --> 0:50:29.640
<v Speaker 2>play at that time was so much faster. So when

0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:32.840
<v Speaker 2>you when you kind of mix that group of you know,

0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:35.560
<v Speaker 2>anywhere from an expert to a beginner, all out on

0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:37.520
<v Speaker 2>the same place, trying to play as fast as you can.

0:50:38.520 --> 0:50:40.120
<v Speaker 2>If you're going to do that and get one hundred

0:50:40.160 --> 0:50:44.319
<v Speaker 2>thousand rounds in, I can't even imagine what it must

0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:45.120
<v Speaker 2>have been overrun.

0:50:45.440 --> 0:50:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, who knows. It's unbelievable that it was that popular.

0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:51.240
<v Speaker 1>That's the thing I mean when I was reading this,

0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:53.839
<v Speaker 1>like the amount of rounds and they had, they had

0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:56.919
<v Speaker 1>presidents dropping their games at Chevy Chase to go play

0:50:56.920 --> 0:50:57.520
<v Speaker 1>at East.

0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:01.759
<v Speaker 2>Potomac, President Wilson and President hard President Harding, I think

0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:08.200
<v Speaker 2>played there three times a week routinely. I mean there

0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:10.920
<v Speaker 2>are private courses, as you're saying, around the DC area

0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:14.280
<v Speaker 2>where you would expect a president to go and play,

0:51:14.560 --> 0:51:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and yet they were playing in East Potomac, which just

0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:19.600
<v Speaker 2>shows you the quality of the course at the time.

0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:26.000
<v Speaker 1>So today East Potomac it's run who run the National

0:51:26.040 --> 0:51:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Parks runs it.

0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:32.359
<v Speaker 2>Right, so there's been a series of concessions contracts that

0:51:32.560 --> 0:51:35.720
<v Speaker 2>have kind of governed the operation of the course since

0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:39.640
<v Speaker 2>its inception. The original concessioner lasted until nineteen eighty three

0:51:41.200 --> 0:51:44.840
<v Speaker 2>on a series of five to seven year contracts, and

0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:48.640
<v Speaker 2>then Golf Course Specialists, which is the current concessioner, took

0:51:48.680 --> 0:51:52.320
<v Speaker 2>over in nineteen eighty three and again on seven year contracts.

0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:56.759
<v Speaker 2>The problem with that system is it's not designed to

0:51:56.880 --> 0:52:01.600
<v Speaker 2>make the types of investment in infrastructure that are needed

0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:05.120
<v Speaker 2>to keep a golf course because it takes time. Exactly,

0:52:05.200 --> 0:52:07.480
<v Speaker 2>it takes time, and it takes more money than I

0:52:07.480 --> 0:52:10.560
<v Speaker 2>think a National Park Service is used to spending on

0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:14.560
<v Speaker 2>those sorts of things. And I say that in the

0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:19.000
<v Speaker 2>sense that the National Park Service outside of Washington, d C.

0:52:19.160 --> 0:52:21.440
<v Speaker 2>I think, operates two other golf courses. So they're not

0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:23.040
<v Speaker 2>set up to do this sort of thing, and they

0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:27.680
<v Speaker 2>don't they're not setting up their concessions contracts to deal

0:52:27.680 --> 0:52:30.600
<v Speaker 2>with it either. The contracts specify exactly what they can do.

0:52:30.719 --> 0:52:33.120
<v Speaker 1>They're probably the same contracts they use for all.

0:52:33.160 --> 0:52:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Things, and they're they're limited in that they say you

0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:39.520
<v Speaker 2>have to operate at this level, you have to pay

0:52:39.600 --> 0:52:42.200
<v Speaker 2>us this much, and you can't do anything that costs

0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:44.640
<v Speaker 2>more than X. Let's just say that it's basically what

0:52:45.000 --> 0:52:50.960
<v Speaker 2>the setup is. So from the beginning, the courses have

0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:54.960
<v Speaker 2>been set up to disintegrate over time more or less.

0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:57.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's been sped up by the need to

0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:01.000
<v Speaker 2>get more people around and building the driving range and

0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:04.640
<v Speaker 2>all of those things that kind of happened relatively early on.

0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:08.240
<v Speaker 2>But since then it's been a steady decline brought about

0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:14.320
<v Speaker 2>by a lack of investment in infrastructure, and they've slowly

0:53:14.360 --> 0:53:16.759
<v Speaker 2>lost a lot of the features that made it cool

0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:19.240
<v Speaker 2>to begin with, or all of them, more or less.

0:53:19.840 --> 0:53:26.800
<v Speaker 1>So from what I gather, there's momentum. There's talks of actually,

0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:31.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, I've heard it from multiple people, of starting

0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:34.640
<v Speaker 1>to do right by the courses. Beyond East Potomac, they

0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:37.560
<v Speaker 1>have Rock Creek, which is an eighteen hole William Flynn

0:53:37.560 --> 0:53:41.439
<v Speaker 1>design where I remember reading The Nature Faker, a book

0:53:41.480 --> 0:53:45.160
<v Speaker 1>about William Flynn, like it might have been Harding also

0:53:45.320 --> 0:53:48.240
<v Speaker 1>said this was like the most beautiful piece of ground

0:53:48.320 --> 0:53:51.879
<v Speaker 1>he's ever walked on. And then there's also Langston, which

0:53:51.920 --> 0:53:57.160
<v Speaker 1>has you know, a ton of history from the racial

0:53:57.239 --> 0:53:59.320
<v Speaker 1>side of things. It was a course that was built

0:53:59.400 --> 0:54:02.759
<v Speaker 1>for the Africa Americans and you know, really became the

0:54:02.760 --> 0:54:05.719
<v Speaker 1>place where they, you know, African Americans learned the game

0:54:05.760 --> 0:54:06.200
<v Speaker 1>of golf.

0:54:06.640 --> 0:54:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And each of the courses have their own stories

0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:15.120
<v Speaker 2>and they're so compelling that I think it's a good

0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:18.920
<v Speaker 2>time to One of the things that I had always

0:54:18.920 --> 0:54:24.160
<v Speaker 2>annoyed me about East Potomac was the concession set up

0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:26.880
<v Speaker 2>from the National Park Service and how it really contributed

0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:31.640
<v Speaker 2>to the degradation of the course over time. But having

0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:35.239
<v Speaker 2>done more research into the history of the courses, I

0:54:35.280 --> 0:54:37.760
<v Speaker 2>realized something that's really made me think about that differently.

0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:42.759
<v Speaker 2>So in the nineteen forties and earlier than that as well,

0:54:42.840 --> 0:54:46.480
<v Speaker 2>East Potomac was the white golf course, golf course for

0:54:46.880 --> 0:54:53.200
<v Speaker 2>white people in Washington, d C. And the African American

0:54:53.239 --> 0:54:57.959
<v Speaker 2>golfing community was playing at the time in an area

0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:03.080
<v Speaker 2>around the Lincoln Memorial and the National Park Service, as

0:55:03.080 --> 0:55:05.960
<v Speaker 2>the overseer of the courses at the time, had a

0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:14.000
<v Speaker 2>policy of desegregation, and theoretically the courses were supposed to

0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:16.760
<v Speaker 2>be open to everybody. That included Rock Creek and Langston,

0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:21.400
<v Speaker 2>but East Potomac was the jewel of the DC golfing crown.

0:55:21.560 --> 0:55:26.640
<v Speaker 2>So African Americans were interested in playing the course, and

0:55:26.719 --> 0:55:29.680
<v Speaker 2>the National Park Service really protected them and allowed them

0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:33.200
<v Speaker 2>to go out and play and even brought in police

0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:37.960
<v Speaker 2>to keep things safe for them. At the exact same time,

0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:41.640
<v Speaker 2>the Washington d C. Government was scheming to take over

0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:45.000
<v Speaker 2>the operation of the DC golf courses, and they pushed

0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:48.840
<v Speaker 2>very hard and did some kind of underhanded things to

0:55:48.920 --> 0:55:53.040
<v Speaker 2>make the concessioner look bad and to take over operation

0:55:53.120 --> 0:55:55.520
<v Speaker 2>from the National Park Service. But the National Park Service

0:55:55.640 --> 0:55:58.960
<v Speaker 2>fought and fought and fought to keep it under their

0:55:59.239 --> 0:56:03.040
<v Speaker 2>purview and that and and keep access available for everybody.

0:56:03.040 --> 0:56:04.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think they knew what was happening. And

0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:07.560
<v Speaker 2>the DC government took it over, they were going to

0:56:07.920 --> 0:56:13.359
<v Speaker 2>enforce their policy of segregation. So when I get frustrated

0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:17.840
<v Speaker 2>now thinking about the concessions contracts and how East Potomac

0:56:17.840 --> 0:56:21.680
<v Speaker 2>has become what it's become, you know, the way I

0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:23.719
<v Speaker 2>used to look at it has been turned on its head.

0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:27.759
<v Speaker 2>It's actually got a really great reason for that, and

0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:31.600
<v Speaker 2>and it makes me happy protected that it didn't before.

0:56:31.680 --> 0:56:35.160
<v Speaker 2>So it's it's great to learn that sort of thing. Yeah,

0:56:35.200 --> 0:56:37.719
<v Speaker 2>it protected it, protected it in a much more important way.

0:56:40.200 --> 0:56:46.080
<v Speaker 1>So with the kind of push and I know there's

0:56:46.120 --> 0:56:50.120
<v Speaker 1>just been buzz around it. What are you know, what

0:56:50.160 --> 0:56:55.360
<v Speaker 1>would it take to say, restore these three golf courses

0:56:55.400 --> 0:56:56.480
<v Speaker 1>to what they could be.

0:56:58.040 --> 0:57:01.120
<v Speaker 2>So the thing that's happening right now, the National Park

0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Service has decided that the courses would be in better

0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:09.600
<v Speaker 2>hands with somebody that can make a larger investment, and

0:57:09.640 --> 0:57:14.640
<v Speaker 2>that their typical structure doesn't work, so they're going to

0:57:14.680 --> 0:57:16.600
<v Speaker 2>open them up. And this is really unusual for them

0:57:17.240 --> 0:57:20.400
<v Speaker 2>to a forty to fifty year lease and the same

0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:22.520
<v Speaker 2>operator would have to come in and operate all three

0:57:22.560 --> 0:57:30.080
<v Speaker 2>DC courses. Now, the question that just brings to mind

0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:32.200
<v Speaker 2>like what should happen in a scenario like that, And

0:57:32.200 --> 0:57:34.360
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of deferred investment over the years that

0:57:34.440 --> 0:57:36.960
<v Speaker 2>all three courses that needs to happen just to make

0:57:37.000 --> 0:57:40.880
<v Speaker 2>them operational going going forward. But at the same time,

0:57:40.920 --> 0:57:46.760
<v Speaker 2>it gives an opportunity to say we can do something

0:57:46.800 --> 0:57:49.720
<v Speaker 2>big here that we could never have done before. So

0:57:49.800 --> 0:57:52.640
<v Speaker 2>it's really the time to say what should happen at

0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:56.920
<v Speaker 2>these places? I mean, I know East Potomac Park the best,

0:57:57.200 --> 0:58:02.320
<v Speaker 2>and my feeling there is beyond the infrastructure, there's certain

0:58:02.400 --> 0:58:05.000
<v Speaker 2>drainage things that have to happen no matter what solution

0:58:05.120 --> 0:58:08.080
<v Speaker 2>you want to put in places. But I would like

0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:12.400
<v Speaker 2>to see the golf course restored to Walter Travis's original design.

0:58:13.680 --> 0:58:17.120
<v Speaker 2>The problem with these sorts of projects is that when

0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:20.960
<v Speaker 2>you start getting into spending money and making an investment

0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:26.080
<v Speaker 2>in a facility like East Potomac, which is so rare

0:58:26.120 --> 0:58:29.320
<v Speaker 2>in golf, it's right downtown, it's part of the city,

0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:34.080
<v Speaker 2>it's accessible to so many people. I think, despite the

0:58:34.120 --> 0:58:38.400
<v Speaker 2>best intentions people involved in these projects, that can't help.

0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:42.280
<v Speaker 2>But let scope creep come in and it's the projects

0:58:42.280 --> 0:58:45.320
<v Speaker 2>start getting bigger and bigger, and you start thinking, this

0:58:45.360 --> 0:58:47.680
<v Speaker 2>would be a great place to host a PGA Tour event,

0:58:48.040 --> 0:58:49.600
<v Speaker 2>and what do we need to do if we're going

0:58:49.640 --> 0:58:53.120
<v Speaker 2>to do that, And all of a sudden, what was

0:58:54.960 --> 0:58:57.760
<v Speaker 2>a fantastic place for people to learn and kind of

0:58:57.760 --> 0:59:02.200
<v Speaker 2>a gathering place for golfers of all scale levels becomes

0:59:02.240 --> 0:59:05.120
<v Speaker 2>something different and more than anything, I just want to

0:59:05.160 --> 0:59:08.840
<v Speaker 2>protect what makes the place special right now, which is

0:59:08.840 --> 0:59:11.800
<v Speaker 2>is that it's a cross section of the community. It's

0:59:12.440 --> 0:59:16.560
<v Speaker 2>a place that's really welcoming, and it's a great place

0:59:16.560 --> 0:59:16.960
<v Speaker 2>to learn.

0:59:17.360 --> 0:59:20.800
<v Speaker 1>It's a fascinating thing right now Chicago is going through

0:59:20.840 --> 0:59:24.040
<v Speaker 1>the same thing. They're you know, they're looking at converting

0:59:24.720 --> 0:59:27.520
<v Speaker 1>eighteen holes of Jackson Park, which is one of the

0:59:27.560 --> 0:59:30.000
<v Speaker 1>oldest golf courses. It was built for the World War

0:59:30.680 --> 0:59:33.320
<v Speaker 1>for the World Fair. You know, it's one of the

0:59:33.400 --> 0:59:35.640
<v Speaker 1>oldest courses in the world, in the in the country

0:59:36.280 --> 0:59:39.200
<v Speaker 1>and in South Shore, which is a historic country club

0:59:39.240 --> 0:59:41.720
<v Speaker 1>that fell on hard times and city bought it up.

0:59:41.760 --> 0:59:44.440
<v Speaker 1>It's right on the lake. Twenty seven holes of golf

0:59:44.480 --> 0:59:48.360
<v Speaker 1>that's really affordable, you know, it's not good. But turning

0:59:48.360 --> 0:59:52.440
<v Speaker 1>twenty seven into eighteen holes of championship, you know, golf

0:59:52.520 --> 0:59:55.600
<v Speaker 1>designed by Tiger Woods that could host a PGA Tour event.

0:59:55.960 --> 1:00:01.240
<v Speaker 1>And it's the same situation where I think Jackson Park

1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:04.360
<v Speaker 1>didn't have the design pedigree of Walter Travis. But when

1:00:04.440 --> 1:00:08.720
<v Speaker 1>you think about what I find so fascinating about this

1:00:09.920 --> 1:00:13.400
<v Speaker 1>East Potomac is like the intention that was set when

1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:15.600
<v Speaker 1>they originally went out to do it, and it was

1:00:15.960 --> 1:00:18.400
<v Speaker 1>to bring off to the masses, yep in the best

1:00:18.400 --> 1:00:20.440
<v Speaker 1>possible way, and that's what they did.

1:00:21.120 --> 1:00:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, I mean the original design. So it's the balance

1:00:25.280 --> 1:00:28.440
<v Speaker 2>of there can be a great design and it can

1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:33.440
<v Speaker 2>be available to everybody, and there's nothing stopping that exact

1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:36.800
<v Speaker 2>situation from coming back. I mean, it's already affordable and

1:00:36.840 --> 1:00:40.040
<v Speaker 2>accessible to everybody, but there's nothing that says you can't

1:00:40.280 --> 1:00:43.800
<v Speaker 2>maintain that and also have a great design. My concern

1:00:43.960 --> 1:00:47.720
<v Speaker 2>with the general direction of most proposals for thees Potomac

1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Park is that you lose the affordable, accessible and welcoming

1:00:53.320 --> 1:00:56.200
<v Speaker 2>to everybody portion of the equation, even if you get

1:00:56.240 --> 1:00:58.760
<v Speaker 2>the great design. And it's about making that balance.

1:00:59.080 --> 1:01:02.080
<v Speaker 1>And that's the thing, is that the thing that you

1:01:02.200 --> 1:01:07.280
<v Speaker 1>uncovered with you know, our earlier conversation with the old course,

1:01:07.680 --> 1:01:12.280
<v Speaker 1>the Bethpage black Tory pines, like, when you can hit

1:01:12.360 --> 1:01:15.800
<v Speaker 1>strike the balance of affordability for everybody in the community

1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:20.840
<v Speaker 1>with great design, that that's the recipe. That's what's making

1:01:20.960 --> 1:01:24.840
<v Speaker 1>presidents leave their country club to come play three days

1:01:24.840 --> 1:01:27.520
<v Speaker 1>a week at the municipal course the course of the people.

1:01:27.800 --> 1:01:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, great design is engaging to everybody. It's not just

1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:35.320
<v Speaker 2>for great players. And there are pine valleys and places

1:01:35.360 --> 1:01:38.480
<v Speaker 2>like that that are great design and geared towards great players,

1:01:38.800 --> 1:01:41.640
<v Speaker 2>but there are a lot more examples of great design

1:01:42.200 --> 1:01:44.720
<v Speaker 2>that is fun and interesting for everybody. That would be

1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:47.439
<v Speaker 2>a perfect model. And you don't even need a model

1:01:47.480 --> 1:01:50.160
<v Speaker 2>for East Between Park, you actually have the original design.

1:01:50.640 --> 1:01:51.520
<v Speaker 1>You have the model.

1:01:51.760 --> 1:01:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the models there and that that brings it back

1:01:54.560 --> 1:01:59.120
<v Speaker 2>to the National Park Service. Their general mission is to

1:01:59.600 --> 1:02:04.480
<v Speaker 2>is to and to show off what's great about a

1:02:04.520 --> 1:02:11.080
<v Speaker 2>certain place, and I think rebuilding Walter Travis's design is

1:02:11.360 --> 1:02:14.960
<v Speaker 2>perfectly in sync with that mission. Is it is what

1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:18.160
<v Speaker 2>should happen there because it honors the history. I mean,

1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:22.160
<v Speaker 2>if you think about cities, right, they're constantly undergoing change

1:02:22.200 --> 1:02:26.160
<v Speaker 2>and there's new buildings built, but ideally you're holding onto

1:02:26.160 --> 1:02:28.800
<v Speaker 2>all the best older buildings and the things that bring

1:02:28.920 --> 1:02:32.080
<v Speaker 2>character to the city. And this is one of those

1:02:32.080 --> 1:02:35.000
<v Speaker 2>things that should be held onto and it shouldn't be

1:02:35.080 --> 1:02:39.040
<v Speaker 2>ditched for a PGA tour event, you know, course or

1:02:39.080 --> 1:02:42.920
<v Speaker 2>whatever it should be to bring the golf, the interesting

1:02:43.280 --> 1:02:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and great design of Walter Travis to the masses, that's

1:02:46.880 --> 1:02:47.480
<v Speaker 2>what it should be.

1:02:47.640 --> 1:02:52.800
<v Speaker 1>It's fascinating because there aren't any regular PGA tour courses

1:02:52.840 --> 1:02:55.880
<v Speaker 1>that come to mind that are affordable for the masses

1:02:56.200 --> 1:02:59.080
<v Speaker 1>like and that are architecturally interesting. They end up all

1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:02.760
<v Speaker 1>being like two hundred and fifty dollars courses that really

1:03:02.800 --> 1:03:05.160
<v Speaker 1>you shouldn't even bother going to see because they're built

1:03:05.200 --> 1:03:08.760
<v Speaker 1>for the one percent. It's Chicago had one. They had

1:03:08.800 --> 1:03:12.440
<v Speaker 1>cog Hill. Cog Hill was one of the great public

1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:16.760
<v Speaker 1>gems in the country and they chased the US Open. Yeah,

1:03:17.000 --> 1:03:20.320
<v Speaker 1>and now the course is empty all the time, and

1:03:20.480 --> 1:03:23.840
<v Speaker 1>they have a golf course that just you know, to

1:03:23.880 --> 1:03:24.960
<v Speaker 1>speak frankly.

1:03:24.640 --> 1:03:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Stinks'd that's that stuff is really sad. It's really sad.

1:03:28.560 --> 1:03:34.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean the you know, the the course at East Potomac,

1:03:36.000 --> 1:03:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you know it, it just belongs to the city and

1:03:40.240 --> 1:03:43.480
<v Speaker 2>to the people. When you when you decide that you're

1:03:43.520 --> 1:03:48.600
<v Speaker 2>going to prioritize an event, it fundamentally changes that vibe.

1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:51.040
<v Speaker 2>And I you know, there's all the models like at

1:03:51.040 --> 1:03:53.640
<v Speaker 2>beth Page right, it's cheaper for a New York City

1:03:53.640 --> 1:03:56.720
<v Speaker 2>resident or a New York resident than it is elsewhere.

1:03:56.880 --> 1:04:00.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's fine, but it's I think when that is

1:04:00.880 --> 1:04:03.600
<v Speaker 2>the goal, because you're because the event is the thing

1:04:03.640 --> 1:04:06.720
<v Speaker 2>that drives. It doesn't matter whether you have a model

1:04:06.760 --> 1:04:10.320
<v Speaker 2>that you know is preferable to the locals. Even amongst

1:04:10.360 --> 1:04:12.720
<v Speaker 2>the locals, it's going to change who's playing there and

1:04:12.720 --> 1:04:13.560
<v Speaker 2>what it feels like.

1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:16.680
<v Speaker 1>And I think that that golf course the way, the

1:04:16.760 --> 1:04:21.200
<v Speaker 1>way it's maintained reflects, you know that. Yeah, where they've

1:04:21.240 --> 1:04:26.200
<v Speaker 1>lost you know, the fairways are maybe sixty percent yeah

1:04:26.200 --> 1:04:27.080
<v Speaker 1>what they should be.

1:04:27.280 --> 1:04:29.640
<v Speaker 2>I will give the shout out to the current superintendent,

1:04:29.680 --> 1:04:32.160
<v Speaker 2>who it seems like is doing a fantastic job there.

1:04:32.160 --> 1:04:34.840
<v Speaker 2>They've converted a lot of the course to Bermuda and

1:04:35.560 --> 1:04:39.480
<v Speaker 2>cut down trees and exposed views to the Potomac and

1:04:39.520 --> 1:04:42.600
<v Speaker 2>it's all in the right direction. But I always feel

1:04:42.600 --> 1:04:45.920
<v Speaker 2>like with East Potomac to the extent that it you know,

1:04:46.040 --> 1:04:47.720
<v Speaker 2>it has gone. And we didn't get into this earlier,

1:04:47.720 --> 1:04:51.440
<v Speaker 2>but there's been flooding fairly early on that caused settling

1:04:51.520 --> 1:04:54.280
<v Speaker 2>on the property and it doesn't drain very well, and

1:04:54.320 --> 1:04:57.840
<v Speaker 2>there's not a lot they can do to fix the

1:04:57.880 --> 1:05:00.400
<v Speaker 2>major issues. But whatever they're doing is kind of chasing

1:05:00.400 --> 1:05:04.240
<v Speaker 2>their tail, like it's it's only it's only money that

1:05:04.280 --> 1:05:06.400
<v Speaker 2>they're going to have to spend again the next year

1:05:07.040 --> 1:05:10.920
<v Speaker 2>to redray in an area or whatever they're they're putting

1:05:10.920 --> 1:05:14.720
<v Speaker 2>lipstick on a on a pig. That might not be

1:05:14.800 --> 1:05:17.439
<v Speaker 2>the best phrase for this, but but yeah, they're doing

1:05:17.480 --> 1:05:18.960
<v Speaker 2>a great job with what they can do, but you

1:05:19.080 --> 1:05:19.840
<v Speaker 2>just can't do more.

1:05:19.960 --> 1:05:23.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, there's given Yeah, and the soul has been ripped out.

1:05:24.120 --> 1:05:27.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's no design there really too. You know, it's

1:05:27.840 --> 1:05:31.360
<v Speaker 2>interesting to the about thirty yards to the left of

1:05:31.400 --> 1:05:35.040
<v Speaker 2>the current first screen in the rough sits the original

1:05:35.040 --> 1:05:37.720
<v Speaker 2>first screen and it's just sitting there and you would

1:05:37.720 --> 1:05:40.640
<v Speaker 2>never know. It's just in rough and the cart path

1:05:40.760 --> 1:05:45.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of goes really close by it, but you could not.

1:05:45.840 --> 1:05:49.040
<v Speaker 2>There are things there that that are, you know, direct

1:05:49.120 --> 1:05:52.080
<v Speaker 2>descendants of the original design. It's just there's not a

1:05:52.120 --> 1:05:54.760
<v Speaker 2>ton because it's been messed with. But there this there's

1:05:54.800 --> 1:05:56.840
<v Speaker 2>this like string of mounds between the tenth and the

1:05:56.880 --> 1:06:01.120
<v Speaker 2>eighteenth holes that used to house like already cross bunkers

1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:06.480
<v Speaker 2>and it was probably great, like a pretty substantial feature

1:06:06.560 --> 1:06:10.560
<v Speaker 2>that was that was pretty dramatic. Again, you know, it's

1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:14.240
<v Speaker 2>just kind of like sitting there waiting to be uncoveraged.

1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:18.240
<v Speaker 1>Another key thing with this, the East Potomac model is

1:06:18.280 --> 1:06:21.880
<v Speaker 1>like what we look at with today's municipal golf, Like

1:06:22.480 --> 1:06:26.160
<v Speaker 1>the general like the mindset they had when they set

1:06:26.200 --> 1:06:28.960
<v Speaker 1>out to do things like we're going to make the greatest,

1:06:29.080 --> 1:06:32.400
<v Speaker 1>like we're going to showcase the model for municipal golf,

1:06:32.400 --> 1:06:36.400
<v Speaker 1>and it was the most interesting municipal golf, like that

1:06:36.720 --> 1:06:39.640
<v Speaker 1>going like, could you imagine an architect proposing to a

1:06:39.760 --> 1:06:42.600
<v Speaker 1>municipality to do a reversible golf course. What would happen?

1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:45.640
<v Speaker 2>No, And it comes to mind. My wife is a

1:06:45.720 --> 1:06:52.240
<v Speaker 2>landscape architect in DC, and when they're involved in public projects,

1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:54.080
<v Speaker 2>and I think this is typical across a lot of

1:06:54.120 --> 1:06:58.320
<v Speaker 2>different you know, things that happen in in in public works.

1:06:58.920 --> 1:07:02.520
<v Speaker 2>They make it design, and then the first thing that

1:07:02.600 --> 1:07:06.240
<v Speaker 2>happens when the design starts going through review is the

1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:09.320
<v Speaker 2>funds available for the project aren't quite what they thought,

1:07:10.000 --> 1:07:13.520
<v Speaker 2>so they value engineer things out, and the first thing

1:07:13.560 --> 1:07:16.920
<v Speaker 2>to go are the interesting design elements, the things that

1:07:17.040 --> 1:07:21.200
<v Speaker 2>make something special. And I think that happens in public

1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:25.200
<v Speaker 2>buildings now every you know, all across the board, that's

1:07:25.240 --> 1:07:27.440
<v Speaker 2>the case. Whereas when you look back at kind of

1:07:27.440 --> 1:07:31.760
<v Speaker 2>the great buildings, you know, especially like civic centers and

1:07:31.840 --> 1:07:36.440
<v Speaker 2>things city halls that were built earlier in the twentieth century,

1:07:36.520 --> 1:07:40.640
<v Speaker 2>like early twentieth century, they're so ornate and interesting, and

1:07:40.680 --> 1:07:47.520
<v Speaker 2>there is clearly an emphasis on design showcasing the importance

1:07:47.520 --> 1:07:51.800
<v Speaker 2>of government or whatever it might be. And that's gone now.

1:07:51.920 --> 1:07:56.280
<v Speaker 2>I just you never see public projects put in a

1:07:56.280 --> 1:07:59.600
<v Speaker 2>place that kind of emphasis on design anymore. But clearly

1:07:59.640 --> 1:08:01.960
<v Speaker 2>at the time that you Spotomac was being built in

1:08:02.080 --> 1:08:06.200
<v Speaker 2>Rock Creek, that was there with the DC you know,

1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:09.640
<v Speaker 2>public golf courses, that they wanted to build something that

1:08:09.680 --> 1:08:12.240
<v Speaker 2>would stand out and be significant and show what's possible.

1:08:12.640 --> 1:08:15.840
<v Speaker 1>And the ironic thing was that the design that they

1:08:15.840 --> 1:08:23.880
<v Speaker 1>were they that these sophisticated, world class architects Flynn Travis

1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:27.559
<v Speaker 1>were doing, was the best design to get the most

1:08:27.680 --> 1:08:31.400
<v Speaker 1>enjoyment of every skill player out of it. That's the

1:08:31.479 --> 1:08:35.599
<v Speaker 1>thing is that what I you had a great quote

1:08:35.800 --> 1:08:41.360
<v Speaker 1>in your thesis, good golf architecture and affordability are not

1:08:41.560 --> 1:08:46.200
<v Speaker 1>mutually exclusive. Municipal golf courses need to feature quality design

1:08:46.479 --> 1:08:50.240
<v Speaker 1>at a price locals can afford to play frequently. And

1:08:50.280 --> 1:08:53.760
<v Speaker 1>that's the ethos of this whole thing is that at

1:08:53.800 --> 1:08:58.240
<v Speaker 1>a core, East Potomac set out to build the greatest,

1:08:58.479 --> 1:09:02.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, municipal golf course that in the country, and

1:09:02.640 --> 1:09:05.040
<v Speaker 1>they did it by building a golf course that was

1:09:05.080 --> 1:09:09.440
<v Speaker 1>still exceptionally challenging for the regular player, but so playable

1:09:09.479 --> 1:09:10.400
<v Speaker 1>for the regular guy.

1:09:10.520 --> 1:09:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and if you think about it, it hosted a

1:09:12.760 --> 1:09:16.840
<v Speaker 2>major tournament in its first full year of existence and

1:09:16.920 --> 1:09:21.040
<v Speaker 2>still got one hundred thousand rounds through it that same year.

1:09:21.160 --> 1:09:23.439
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's crazy to even think about it, but

1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:28.040
<v Speaker 2>that one hundred thousand round number comes from a full

1:09:28.080 --> 1:09:31.519
<v Speaker 2>on cross section of the golfing community in Washington, d C.

1:09:31.680 --> 1:09:35.080
<v Speaker 2>At that time, probably heavily skewed to non country club

1:09:35.120 --> 1:09:36.880
<v Speaker 2>members who are just starting to play.

1:09:38.080 --> 1:09:44.040
<v Speaker 1>It's it's an interesting, just whole case study where where

1:09:44.040 --> 1:09:48.920
<v Speaker 1>can people go to learn more about the East Potomac

1:09:49.000 --> 1:09:52.360
<v Speaker 1>and the future of it with this, you know, bid

1:09:52.400 --> 1:09:56.280
<v Speaker 1>out for management and what can they do to help

1:09:56.520 --> 1:10:00.040
<v Speaker 1>and if they wanted to help get it restored what were.

1:10:00.040 --> 1:10:02.160
<v Speaker 2>Starting to figure a little bit of that out all la.

1:10:02.200 --> 1:10:03.880
<v Speaker 2>So I'm trying to get the lay of the land

1:10:03.920 --> 1:10:07.040
<v Speaker 2>and understand who is trying to be involved in this.

1:10:07.240 --> 1:10:11.240
<v Speaker 2>Now there's an RFI out from the National Park Service

1:10:11.240 --> 1:10:14.519
<v Speaker 2>about exactly what should be involved when they put this

1:10:14.640 --> 1:10:17.160
<v Speaker 2>lease out. The next step after that would be to

1:10:18.600 --> 1:10:23.839
<v Speaker 2>do a formal RFP where people, operators and various others

1:10:24.360 --> 1:10:27.639
<v Speaker 2>would put forth proposals to actually take on the lease

1:10:27.680 --> 1:10:31.000
<v Speaker 2>for the three DC golf courses. As this whole thing

1:10:31.120 --> 1:10:35.960
<v Speaker 2>plays out, I'll know a lot more about what's happening

1:10:35.960 --> 1:10:41.400
<v Speaker 2>in the general direction you can go to find more

1:10:41.400 --> 1:10:47.799
<v Speaker 2>information about the courses themselves by the National Park Service

1:10:47.800 --> 1:10:50.600
<v Speaker 2>has put out a couple of really good histories of

1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:57.120
<v Speaker 2>golf in the in the DC area that specifically talk

1:10:57.160 --> 1:11:01.360
<v Speaker 2>about East Potomac, Rock Creek and Langston. By googling for those,

1:11:01.439 --> 1:11:03.519
<v Speaker 2>that's probably the best starting point. You could also read

1:11:03.560 --> 1:11:08.720
<v Speaker 2>my thesis, which is available on the University of Georgia website.

1:11:09.720 --> 1:11:12.800
<v Speaker 1>I'll put a link to that in the podcast.

1:11:12.880 --> 1:11:17.439
<v Speaker 2>Not but I think the most important stuff that you

1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:20.280
<v Speaker 2>know will be relevant to the future of the courses

1:11:20.400 --> 1:11:23.600
<v Speaker 2>hasn't really happened yet, and we have to figure out

1:11:23.800 --> 1:11:27.400
<v Speaker 2>it's possible that people who have pushed this forward have

1:11:27.560 --> 1:11:30.040
<v Speaker 2>the right idea and they're going to go the right way.

1:11:30.280 --> 1:11:33.160
<v Speaker 2>And I've started talking to people about what their plans

1:11:33.200 --> 1:11:36.760
<v Speaker 2>are and still getting a feel for it. But you'll

1:11:36.760 --> 1:11:40.000
<v Speaker 2>certainly hear about it if it's not going to go

1:11:40.120 --> 1:11:43.760
<v Speaker 2>that way, because I feel very strongly that there's such

1:11:43.760 --> 1:11:48.040
<v Speaker 2>a great story to recapture here and that's the name

1:11:48.080 --> 1:11:50.400
<v Speaker 2>of the game in it, and it goes with what

1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:54.080
<v Speaker 2>the National Park Service wants for their properties anyway, So

1:11:54.840 --> 1:11:57.760
<v Speaker 2>I think that will be a big push for it.

1:11:57.920 --> 1:12:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it's not just East Potomac's Langston and yeah,

1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:01.960
<v Speaker 1>rock Creek.

1:12:02.000 --> 1:12:06.240
<v Speaker 2>We could have a whole podcast on Langston Rock Creek there.

1:12:06.800 --> 1:12:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Their stories are equally compelling.

1:12:08.360 --> 1:12:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Future pode. We'll do that once we get Once we

1:12:12.040 --> 1:12:13.200
<v Speaker 1>get the right bidder, we'll.

1:12:13.080 --> 1:12:16.799
<v Speaker 2>Do those exactly exactly so or if the wrong bidder

1:12:16.880 --> 1:12:18.120
<v Speaker 2>is involved, you know who knows.

1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:22.000
<v Speaker 1>So you're on Instagram at Michael McCartin, right, that's right,

1:12:22.360 --> 1:12:23.719
<v Speaker 1>and uh not Twitter?

1:12:24.040 --> 1:12:27.160
<v Speaker 2>Not Twitter. Yeah, I'm not yet a master of social media.

1:12:27.479 --> 1:12:30.120
<v Speaker 2>I guess okay, I wasn't not like you, you know,

1:12:30.160 --> 1:12:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I just I'll just pay attention to what you're you know,

1:12:33.280 --> 1:12:36.160
<v Speaker 2>you're doing and and I'll just kind of emulate.

1:12:36.600 --> 1:12:39.280
<v Speaker 1>The ironic thing was I was like not on Twitter

1:12:39.360 --> 1:12:42.439
<v Speaker 1>at all. I was on it, but like verily fairly

1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:47.040
<v Speaker 1>active before starting this. Now just on Twitter all the time.

1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:52.320
<v Speaker 1>My wife hates it, so but thanks so much for

1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:55.640
<v Speaker 1>coming on. We'll we'll hopefully hopefully get some support for

1:12:55.720 --> 1:12:58.240
<v Speaker 1>this and hopefully I'll'll go the right direction.

1:12:58.479 --> 1:13:01.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'll keep you posted on what it'll be interesting.

1:13:02.720 --> 1:13:06.000
<v Speaker 2>You've been listening to the Fried Egg podcast. We do

1:13:06.080 --> 1:13:07.240
<v Speaker 2>the digging for you.

1:13:10.800 --> 1:13:10.840
<v Speaker 1>M