Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Frida Egg Podcast. This week, I'm
Speaker 1: joined by golf course architect Michael McCartin. We discussed Michael's
Speaker 1: background and his career in golf to date, but the
Speaker 1: real focus of the episode is on Washington d C's
Speaker 1: municipal golf course, East Potomac. Michael did his graduate school
Speaker 1: thesis on the golf course and kind of the current
Speaker 1: state the history of the golf course and Washington d
Speaker 1: C's municipal golf I would highly recommend giving the thesis
Speaker 1: a read. We provided a link to it in the
Speaker 1: podcast page on the website, as well as a few
Speaker 1: selected images from it of East Potomac and what it
Speaker 1: originally looked like. So definitely go check that out on
Speaker 1: the website. That would be under the podcast page at
Speaker 1: the Fried Egg. Anyways, without further ado, here is Michael McCartin.
Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoy and had a great Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I final a ball in a brid Egg
Speaker 1: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday Frida Egg, Brian Egg,
Speaker 1: Frida egg Brian egg Lie, I'm about ready to run
Speaker 1: off of the course. Who is Mike mccarton in the
Speaker 1: golf world?
Speaker 2: Well, I am a golf course architect. I started working
Speaker 2: for Tom Doak in two thousand and five at bally Neil.
Speaker 2: This was something that I kind of worked up to
Speaker 2: over time. I went to school for landscape architecture. That
Speaker 2: was actually after going to school for economics as an
Speaker 2: economics major, and I had been kind of obsessed with
Speaker 2: golf architecture since I was a little kid and thought
Speaker 2: there was no future at it for whatever reason. And
Speaker 2: after I got out of school, I was bored and
Speaker 2: working for some place that I just didn't have any
Speaker 2: interest in, and I thought, well, I should write Tom
Speaker 2: Doak like I'd actually had a correspondence with him when
Speaker 2: I went and studied abroad in Saint Andrews my junior
Speaker 2: year of college, and he told me to just play
Speaker 2: as many courses as I could out there, and he
Speaker 2: was really nice just to even respond. So then I
Speaker 2: applied for an internship and that's how I ended up
Speaker 2: at ballyn Neil in two thousand and five.
Speaker 1: What originally got you into golf course architecture as a kid.
Speaker 2: I think this is funny because it kind of ties in.
Speaker 2: But the first thing that got me into golf architecture
Speaker 2: was I think playing at East Potomac Park as a kid.
Speaker 2: That's where I learned how to play. And my dad
Speaker 2: would take me and my brother out to the course
Speaker 2: just to get us out of the house, and we'd
Speaker 2: sit there and watch them hit balls at the driving
Speaker 2: range there, and then you know, we just had to
Speaker 2: We just had to do it. You know, it's like
Speaker 2: we can't just say, of course he gave us. I
Speaker 2: think I got. I was like into you know, Fanta
Speaker 2: or what I like, an orange soda. I would give
Speaker 2: an orange soda and sit there and then finally it's like,
Speaker 2: this is really boring. I better, I better hit balls.
Speaker 2: I must have been eight years old, and then you know,
Speaker 2: we started playing the course and that was really fun.
Speaker 2: But playing at East Potomac Park, where if you didn't
Speaker 2: know any better, it's kind of the definition of a
Speaker 2: place that you would you would associate with the municipal
Speaker 2: course where yeah, there's nothing really to the course. It's
Speaker 2: really flat, you know, in terms of features that would
Speaker 2: be interesting, there's not much there so then every other
Speaker 2: place that I went and played afterwards, I would kind
Speaker 2: of compare back to like the blank slate of East Potomac,
Speaker 2: And so each place is like, you know, you could
Speaker 2: play somewhere and it would feel like it's adding another
Speaker 2: element to golf and golf course design. So I got
Speaker 2: really into what made certain courses better, and I started
Speaker 2: reading books about golf architecture, and probably by the age
Speaker 2: of twelve, I had read every book that you know
Speaker 2: was out there at the time. So crazy, Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: that's kind of the start, I guess.
Speaker 1: So at age twelve, you were like more versed in
Speaker 1: golf architecture than like ninety nine point nine percent of
Speaker 1: the golfing pots.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you have to put it, you know, a
Speaker 2: little bit into perspective, because fifty percent of all of
Speaker 2: those books, you know, whether it's Donald Ross or you know, whoever,
Speaker 2: they're devoted to agronomy in the nineteen twenties. You know,
Speaker 2: it doesn't really help you. You know, it's it's great,
Speaker 2: you know, to read that, but it's also not practical
Speaker 2: for now. But the drawings, especially in those books, I
Speaker 2: probably filled up, you know, a bunch of notebooks with
Speaker 2: drawings of fake two D golf courses back back then,
Speaker 2: And I think I would even write to Golf Digest
Speaker 2: for you know, they had those inserts in the old
Speaker 2: magazines where you could where you could check off what
Speaker 2: you might be interested in learning more about. So I
Speaker 2: would check off everything, and back in the mail we
Speaker 2: get all of this what most people would consider junk
Speaker 2: mail of you know, advertisements for golf courses, but it
Speaker 2: had pictures, and I would like kind of, you know,
Speaker 2: run through the pictures and like the guide to Myrtle
Speaker 2: Beach Golf. You know, when they first incorporated all together,
Speaker 2: that would be an exciting moment for me.
Speaker 1: What was the first course where you were like, whoa,
Speaker 1: this is way different than East Potomac.
Speaker 2: Hmm. I think maybe the first course was probably I'm
Speaker 2: trying to think of something that's actually meaningful. But most
Speaker 2: of the courses I would I would say that had
Speaker 2: big impacts were more incremental, like just there's more going
Speaker 2: on here. There's a Robert Trent Jones junior course around
Speaker 2: DC called Landsdown that I went to with my dad
Speaker 2: and my thirteenth birthday. That was that was just like
Speaker 2: whoa this is? It was a resort. It was in
Speaker 2: really good shape. That kind of was pretty meaningful. There
Speaker 2: are a bunch of courses on the eastern shore of
Speaker 2: Maryland where we would go in the summer, we'd go
Speaker 2: out and play, So I don't think i'd played anything
Speaker 2: that's really architecturally significant for a while, though I had
Speaker 2: read as much as I could about them. Washington Golf
Speaker 2: was probably the first access to a course that has
Speaker 2: a little bit of a history that I had played
Speaker 2: as a kid, because a couple of kids in my
Speaker 2: little league baseball team had, you know, been members there,
Speaker 2: and so they take me out on Wednesday afternoons, but
Speaker 2: kids out to you know, unaccompanied.
Speaker 1: So then how long did you work with Renaissance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so started a balllet deal in two thousand and five,
Speaker 2: and then went from there to the Renaissance Club in Scotland,
Speaker 2: and then from the Renaissance Club to a course called
Speaker 2: Wicked Pony in Bend, Oregon, which ended up closing in
Speaker 2: the recession. It never opened. Then to Old McDonald and
Speaker 2: then to Mexico where we built a course called the
Speaker 2: Bay of Dreams that also closed during the recession. So
Speaker 2: that was a tough time.
Speaker 1: That's gotta be a weird feeling when you spend a
Speaker 1: ton of time and just put put so much work
Speaker 1: into something and then have it never.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, especially with places like that, because you're
Speaker 2: doing it for yourself a lot, because a lot of
Speaker 2: the things that you work on are super meaningful to you,
Speaker 2: but no one ever notices. So the thing that really
Speaker 2: helps is getting the chance to go back and just
Speaker 2: appreciate the time that you spent on it. And to
Speaker 2: not even have that chance is really frustrating with some
Speaker 2: of these places because they're cool places to be and
Speaker 2: spend time, you know, as a baseline, but then just
Speaker 2: chance to kind of reminisce about your time out on
Speaker 2: the course and what you were thinking about when you
Speaker 2: did a certain thing, to just yeah, miss out on that.
Speaker 2: Those are some of the best times. So's it's frustrating.
Speaker 1: So the economic recession hits and your day job isn't
Speaker 1: golf architect now, right, So you know what it was
Speaker 1: the recession that caused you to not keep going and
Speaker 1: keep pursuing architecture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, indirectly. So the next project after Mexico that I
Speaker 2: was offered was in China, and it was kind of
Speaker 2: at that point that I was getting serious with my
Speaker 2: now wife, and it was clear that we were going
Speaker 2: to get married, and I wanted a family, and I
Speaker 2: was thinking about going to China. And up until that point,
Speaker 2: I had been able to go to projects and work
Speaker 2: two weeks on, one week off, back and forth, or
Speaker 2: they were in locations that I really wanted to be
Speaker 2: like abandoned. I mean, it was like a vacation. It
Speaker 2: was amazing. So contemplating what it would be like to
Speaker 2: go to China for nine months had me thinking about
Speaker 2: what I needed to do to make sure that I
Speaker 2: didn't have to take the next job that came up
Speaker 2: all the time. Just what can I do to kind
Speaker 2: of break the cycle of feeling like you have to
Speaker 2: chase the next job. So at that time, my neighbor
Speaker 2: growing up was starting a company in healthcare it in
Speaker 2: the DC area, and he offered me work on a
Speaker 2: part time basis. And the idea was that I could
Speaker 2: take whatever golf jobs I wanted, go work on two week,
Speaker 2: one month, whatever long basis, but then come back to
Speaker 2: that job. And it seemed like the perfect thing because
Speaker 2: then I could turn down things that I didn't want
Speaker 2: to do. So that actually worked out for a long time.
Speaker 2: I worked all over at Madina and the Valley Club
Speaker 2: in Santa Barbara, you know, several other courses, and even
Speaker 2: I spent a year at stream Song, so that I
Speaker 2: was still heavily involved in golf course architecture for a
Speaker 2: while through twenty twelve twenty thirteen before really taking any
Speaker 2: kind of break from it. But since then, I've just
Speaker 2: been focused on doing things that are in the DC
Speaker 2: area so that I can be fully devoted to golf
Speaker 2: stuff when it comes up, but also be home with
Speaker 2: my family.
Speaker 1: So you're still working for the same company. Yes, that's
Speaker 1: pretty pretty cool.
Speaker 2: It's great and it couldn't have been a better situation.
Speaker 2: And really it's a full time job now and the
Speaker 2: stuff that I've been able to do in golf has
Speaker 2: been just on top of that, so when it does happen,
Speaker 2: it's been kind of like a whirlwind time.
Speaker 1: So one of the cool projects that you've gotten to
Speaker 1: do in the DC area Schoolhouse n tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about that project, how it came about, and
Speaker 1: you know the golf course that's there now.
Speaker 2: Sure, So Schoolhouse nine was the idea of this guy,
Speaker 2: Cliff Miller, whose family has been in the area of
Speaker 2: this course, which is in Sperryville, Virginia and close to
Speaker 2: the Shenandoah National Park. It's this beautiful adjacent to the
Speaker 2: mountain setting. It's great and his family has been there
Speaker 2: since pre Civil War. They have a homestead kind of
Speaker 2: house there that he's now turned into a bed and
Speaker 2: breakfast and he's like a local entrepreneur now with a
Speaker 2: bed and breakfast is the first project. He then converted
Speaker 2: his family's barn into a wedding venue, and then he
Speaker 2: was looking for something new to do. And they have
Speaker 2: this schoolhouse that they own and that they the time
Speaker 2: operated a antique store out of it. It was this
Speaker 2: really cool place you can go in. And then he
Speaker 2: built a little addition with a restaurant in it in
Speaker 2: a bar, and it's it's got a lot of atmosphere
Speaker 2: and it's a cool place to hang out. And he's
Speaker 2: a big golfer. And so he reached out looking to
Speaker 2: build a part three course right as part of the
Speaker 2: facility there.
Speaker 1: Better way like you know, bar, restaurant, antique shop, a
Speaker 1: little nine hole golf.
Speaker 2: Exactly, bed and breakfast. Yeah, he's really trying to hit
Speaker 2: the you know there.
Speaker 1: Covering all bases of industry right forwards a recreation.
Speaker 2: I mean, he is really like he's he's a smart
Speaker 2: business guy, and I think he realizes that that area
Speaker 2: is a place where people are coming through all the time,
Speaker 2: and and I think most of the other businesses were
Speaker 2: focused on that aspect of people come there to see
Speaker 2: the leaves in the fall, and to go to wineries
Speaker 2: in the area and to hike in the Shenandoah National
Speaker 2: Park and so everything there's kind of geared towards people
Speaker 2: who like to do that sort of stuff, or places
Speaker 2: where people can stop while they're doing it. The funny
Speaker 2: thing is, though the golf course is so different from that,
Speaker 2: it's really the thing that he cares about the most personally.
Speaker 2: And he had actually called an architect to come out
Speaker 2: and walk the site with him, and they had kind
Speaker 2: of discussed different ideas and they got to the site
Speaker 2: of the now ninth Green and the architect turned to
Speaker 2: him and said, you know, I think this would be
Speaker 2: a great place for an island green, and it's this
Speaker 2: beautiful setting right by the Thornton River. It's this rushing
Speaker 2: mountain stream. And Cliff turned to him and was like,
Speaker 2: thank you for your time, but I think we've just
Speaker 2: got different ideas for this project. And at that point
Speaker 2: he had spent a lot of time abandoned dunes and
Speaker 2: playing with his friends up there because he used to
Speaker 2: live on the West coast, and so he called Tom
Speaker 2: Doak and asked him if he would be interested. But
Speaker 2: at that time, I think Tom had several projects going
Speaker 2: across the country and felt like he was too busy
Speaker 2: for it. And so Tom knew I lived in DC,
Speaker 2: and he introduced me to Cliff and then we launched
Speaker 2: into this. I don't know if you've ever had occasion
Speaker 2: to deal with local government or local politics, but the
Speaker 2: actual process of getting the golf course built is its
Speaker 2: own story. We can go into it if you want, but.
Speaker 1: We're gonna leave the horror stories out of it.
Speaker 2: But it was definitely a battle to convince people in
Speaker 2: this rural county of Virginia that golf would be something
Speaker 2: that might fit in and I think we did a
Speaker 2: good job of it in the end, and actually the
Speaker 2: golf course, I think is what we promised to be.
Speaker 1: So the thing I find most intriguing about schoolhouses the
Speaker 1: way it's maintained where it's not maintained, the way a
Speaker 1: modern course would would look out if you know, the
Speaker 1: un irrigated fairways, irrigated greens and tea boxes. But it's
Speaker 1: more like, you know, Fisher's Island, one of the greatest
Speaker 1: courts in the world, maintains it this way. But if
Speaker 1: you PLoP this down into any municipality, they'd be like,
Speaker 1: why is it brown? Like, tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: about Like the decision to do that was a big
Speaker 1: decision and you know, long term, what are the effects
Speaker 1: of doing that?
Speaker 2: Well, first, I think it was mostly practical because the
Speaker 2: idea was Cliff would hire a superintendent, one person, maybe
Speaker 2: not even full time, to maintain the course and that
Speaker 2: would be it. There would be a cost of that
Speaker 2: person's salary. Plus he went to auction to buy all
Speaker 2: of the equipment for maintaining the place, so we got
Speaker 2: it all very cheap. But he would need a mechanic
Speaker 2: to maintain that sort of stuff. But basically that would
Speaker 2: be it. Those would be the major inputs, and he
Speaker 2: didn't know what to expect in terms of play, so
Speaker 2: he didn't want to go overboard, you know, with expectations
Speaker 2: on the superintendent for what the course should be. So honestly,
Speaker 2: when we started we said, well, what's what is the
Speaker 2: thing that we could do to kind of make that
Speaker 2: whole idea work. So it doesn't even have irrigation on
Speaker 2: the teas. It is just irrigation at the greens. We
Speaker 2: put in kind of a glorified sports field the irrigation system,
Speaker 2: so it's not even your Toro rainbird sort of situation
Speaker 2: it is. It is much more low tech than that.
Speaker 2: And the interesting thing is the course. Our idea basically
Speaker 2: was that it would reflect the area right it is.
Speaker 2: It is a field, and there's a little bit of
Speaker 2: contour out there, and we built what I think are
Speaker 2: some cool golf features, but it's it's meant to blend
Speaker 2: in right there there we built We planted a lot
Speaker 2: of the interior portions of the course with kind of
Speaker 2: longer meadow grasses and seasonal flowers, so it feels like
Speaker 2: you're out in, you know, a meadow which was just
Speaker 2: happened to be cut down. And honestly, the grass is
Speaker 2: kind of coarse in a lot of the place, so
Speaker 2: it's it feels like that. And then there are greens
Speaker 2: that are in fantastic shape that are just kind of
Speaker 2: out there, and that's the one thing and then and
Speaker 2: because of that, I think as a part three course,
Speaker 2: it actually plays pretty well. You just kind of drop
Speaker 2: your ball anywhere around the tee. I mean you can
Speaker 2: tee it up or just put it on the ground whatever.
Speaker 2: It's not what you would typically considered tea. It's more
Speaker 2: like teeing off out of rough honestly. But then you know,
Speaker 2: I think everything else works really well.
Speaker 1: I imagine that the like, so the conditions changed throughout
Speaker 1: the year, and you get seasonality and you get droughts
Speaker 1: and you get rainy periods, and then the golf course
Speaker 1: play is completely different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you get some scenarios where, yeah, if
Speaker 2: you're thinking of rye or you know, an un irrigated
Speaker 2: British links, you're getting stuff that's pretty close to that
Speaker 2: a lot of the summer. And then in spring and fall,
Speaker 2: when you get a little more rain, it turns greener
Speaker 2: and it can play a little bit softer. But because
Speaker 2: we didn't we didn't import any materials to build the greens,
Speaker 2: they're just native soil push up greens, and the greens
Speaker 2: can be take on that same you know, profile of
Speaker 2: being hard or soft as the surround. So it'll play
Speaker 2: pretty consistently. It's not like you're getting really soft greens
Speaker 2: and and hard surrounds. You know, it's it's all of
Speaker 2: a piece, and it really makes for a good feel
Speaker 2: when you're out there. It's it's a kind of a
Speaker 2: unique setting.
Speaker 1: So from a cost side, this guy, you know, he
Speaker 1: did it pretty bare bones and then it's a popular,
Speaker 1: very successful business now.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and and it all goes together. Like you said,
Speaker 2: they've got the bar. You pay at the bar, so
Speaker 2: they're kind of doubling up on as much of the
Speaker 2: infrastructure as possible. If you're going to play the course,
Speaker 2: you just check in in the restaurant, pay your green
Speaker 2: fee there. They've got a bunch of pull carts waiting
Speaker 2: out there for anybody who wants to take them. But
Speaker 2: it's it's a really no cart, no carts, No, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's it's walking. It couldn't be And it's hard to like.
Speaker 2: As I've been out there and and introduced people who
Speaker 2: don't normally play golf because it's a great beginner spot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they always ask kind of what do I need to
Speaker 2: wear or what do I need to bring or you know,
Speaker 2: I don't normally play, so tell me what I need
Speaker 2: to know, but out or you honestly don't need to
Speaker 2: know anything. It is as informal and friendly a place
Speaker 2: to play as it gets, because there's no you're not
Speaker 2: standing on tradition, right, It's it's it's just a place
Speaker 2: for people who like golfer, want to try it, to play,
Speaker 2: and they've got, you know, few clubs hanging around for
Speaker 2: anybody who wants to just take about and give it
Speaker 2: a shot. And yeah, it couldn't be less formal. So
Speaker 2: in that sense, it's it's it's really good because I
Speaker 2: can take my son on the back of a poll
Speaker 2: cart and he stands on there, he calls it his chariot,
Speaker 2: rides around, you know, as I play, and then my
Speaker 2: wife can stroll in the stroller with my daughter, and
Speaker 2: it's really hard to beat.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting greens, you know, strategic bunkering, you know
Speaker 1: where it. I think it's so funny. I sounds like
Speaker 1: a great place to to like learn how to play
Speaker 1: golf because it's welcoming, it's you know, it's very casual.
Speaker 1: It's beginner friendly. You know, when it's dry, if you
Speaker 1: top it, the ball roll.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the key is that all of those things
Speaker 2: are kind of the baseline, but the design of the
Speaker 2: course can be as sophisticated and interesting as you want
Speaker 2: it to be. The golf course is designed to be
Speaker 2: interesting for good players and kind of engage people who
Speaker 2: are just starting. Yeah, it's the idea that at a
Speaker 2: place like that's not spending any money on maintenance. Really
Speaker 2: there doesn't you know that you don't need to sacrifice
Speaker 2: on the architectural interest And I think, you know, I
Speaker 2: was able to do that out there. There's every greed
Speaker 2: is different depending on where the hole is located, which
Speaker 2: I think is pretty important on a Part three course.
Speaker 2: Otherwise it's going to feel like, especially for the owners
Speaker 2: out there playing all the time, I'm better change it
Speaker 2: up depending on you know, the strategy for you know,
Speaker 2: it's not even a strategy, it's just like what you're
Speaker 2: trying to do with your t shot should be different
Speaker 2: day to day. And tried to think of different green
Speaker 2: ideas that would make that possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's fascinating. I talked about this maybe a
Speaker 1: couple of podcasts ago I can't remember which one, but
Speaker 1: I talked about how golf is in this weird place
Speaker 1: with municipal golf where we show like if if we
Speaker 1: take coffee, for example, if you had a non coffee
Speaker 1: drinker and you wanted to get them into coffee, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't take them to the and give them the blandest
Speaker 1: and worst tasting coffee you know available, Like you give
Speaker 1: them like the best tasting coffee which you know or
Speaker 1: the you know like the most and that coffee is
Speaker 1: the best tasting for a beginner, but it's also got
Speaker 1: the most sophistication for like a real coffee you know
Speaker 1: addict that knows a lot about coffee. And it's the
Speaker 1: same thing with golf. What happens is like, well it's
Speaker 1: the opposite of what happens with golf is we take
Speaker 1: our beginners to like the blandest, watered down version of
Speaker 1: coffee that we could give them, and watered down version
Speaker 1: of golf.
Speaker 2: It's true. And I think that that metaphor really extends
Speaker 2: into all of it. I mean, when when you're trying
Speaker 2: that coffee, the you know, the beginner just knows it
Speaker 2: tastes good, and the person who is really into coffee
Speaker 2: can can understand the different notes that might be part
Speaker 2: of it or whatever, especially if you're talking about wine.
Speaker 2: You know, you get into that sort of what is
Speaker 2: the what's the documentary about wine? The one that was
Speaker 2: on I don't know, it's on Netflix and talks about
Speaker 2: like what people are it's Sam Alier or so I
Speaker 2: think it's the name of it, right, and they're talking
Speaker 2: about like, oh, I taste you know, desiccated dirt. You know,
Speaker 2: this is decomposing worms, you know, or whatever, like rusted
Speaker 2: tobacco or whatever. Who knows anyway, But but you can
Speaker 2: look in golf architecture is a good, good thing. There's
Speaker 2: so much depth to it if you want to look,
Speaker 2: look for it and find it. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: what's exciting for a good player is still exciting for
Speaker 2: a beginner, and there can be you know, challenges that
Speaker 2: kind of go across the spectrum and we'll get through
Speaker 2: to somebody who's just starting. And I think that's the
Speaker 2: great thing about it. There's no reason to start with
Speaker 2: something that's boring. You could be on a driving range
Speaker 2: learning to hit a solid shot, and the thrill of
Speaker 2: hitting a solid shot is always there, but it's the
Speaker 2: element of introducing something that you're trying to get over
Speaker 2: or around that gets you nervous. Or gets you thinking,
Speaker 2: that really makes you start understanding the like the variety
Speaker 2: of decisions you have to make, like how close do
Speaker 2: I play to this? And is it worth it? Or
Speaker 2: just can I execute something that you know has a
Speaker 2: little bit writing on it or whatever. Those are the
Speaker 2: things that make golf really fun and take you from
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to hit a ball solidly to I'm
Speaker 2: playing a course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're having to make decisions. Is at that
Speaker 1: idea of making a decision and then executing on the
Speaker 1: decision you make that makes golf so cool. It's not
Speaker 1: a game of just numbers. It's not a game of
Speaker 1: just pure execution, because there's you know, hundreds of decisions
Speaker 1: and then the mental aspect of convincing yourself that you
Speaker 1: made the right decision before you hit the shots. So
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about East Potomac, which you did
Speaker 1: your graduate school thesis on which an incredible read. I've
Speaker 1: been riveted by it. But one of the things I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about before was come came before we
Speaker 1: talk about East Potomac. Came from your thesis. You did
Speaker 1: a study you kind of did like this study and
Speaker 1: synopsis of three very very successful municipal golf courses Bethpage,
Speaker 1: Black Tory Pines and then the Old Course, And I'd
Speaker 1: love for you to kind of just walk through what
Speaker 1: you learned about each of them, and you pulled from
Speaker 1: each of them, and then you know kind of the
Speaker 1: I think that goes really well in with your Schoolhouse
Speaker 1: nine and what you did there.
Speaker 2: Right, I think, And I picked those really purposefully because
Speaker 2: they're all well known first of all, but beyond that,
Speaker 2: I think they do a good job of explaining what
Speaker 2: I think engages all levels of golfer and and what's
Speaker 2: inclusionary versus exclusionary. For the old courses. The starting point
Speaker 2: as it is in like all these discussions, it's it's
Speaker 2: this undefined open field of play where they're there's all
Speaker 2: these hazards and you get to choose how you want
Speaker 2: to play it. But it's not dictating a certain type
Speaker 2: of golf, and it's definitely accepting to all kinds of shots.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a time I studied abroad in Saint
Speaker 2: Andrews my junior and there were times where I would
Speaker 2: purposefully try to hit shots thin or even top them
Speaker 2: into the wind, because I knew that was probably the
Speaker 2: best way to get around, and it just it encourages
Speaker 2: a lot of creativity like that. But I guess the
Speaker 2: point of even saying that is that you could top
Speaker 2: your ball around Sat Andrews, and if you're thinking about
Speaker 2: where you're going to put your shot, you can do it.
Speaker 2: As long as you're thinking about it. There's a lot
Speaker 2: out there to avoid, but there's room to avoid it,
Speaker 2: and everything has its consequence, but if you're playing your game,
Speaker 2: you can figure out a way to do it. The
Speaker 2: you know, if you're going to take Tory Pines as
Speaker 2: the the opposite end of the spectrum, it's just so
Speaker 2: much more prescriptive, and it's geared towards one thing, being
Speaker 2: hard for pros. For the most part. The way it's
Speaker 2: maintained is kind of and I think this is a
Speaker 2: little bit of just the nature of places that host
Speaker 2: big tournaments, but they they want to preserve that reputation
Speaker 2: of being hard enough to have a US Open. So
Speaker 2: the second you have an identity, right the second you
Speaker 2: have US Open, the next thing you know, your golf
Speaker 2: course is being maintained like there's a US Open there
Speaker 2: every week. And Torrey Pines is a good example. The
Speaker 2: rough is thick, the greens aren't accepting of shots from
Speaker 2: from the rough. It's all an aerial game. And it
Speaker 2: also costs a lot to maintain that right deep bunkers,
Speaker 2: so it's not a lot of fun. And actually, the
Speaker 2: interesting thing at the time that they were they had
Speaker 2: just renovated the South course and they were thinking about
Speaker 2: doing the same to the North course. The town actually
Speaker 2: kind of revolted against doing it because this was.
Speaker 1: The Rees Jones renovation of the North Course, you know,
Speaker 1: exactly recently, same team was going to do it, the
Speaker 1: exact same thing was going to be done, and the
Speaker 1: city and the people who were in charge of making
Speaker 1: the decision basically said they didn't want it because the
Speaker 1: South course was hard enough and they wanted a place
Speaker 1: that'd be a little easier and more friendly. And what
Speaker 1: you saw was that the North Course at the time
Speaker 1: was the preferred course of the locals. So you know,
Speaker 1: the South course was the was the was the tourist
Speaker 1: trap exactly. Could say, you know, it's like the great,
Speaker 1: the great restaurant in town that the locals all go
Speaker 1: eat at, but the big name restaurant where all the
Speaker 1: tourists go.
Speaker 2: It's true. And and because of that because people are
Speaker 2: traveling to play a US open course. It just feeds
Speaker 2: into it, right that that is the thing that's and
Speaker 2: and it just becomes it. It becomes a thing that
Speaker 2: is not enjoyable for everyday play. And that was the
Speaker 2: contrast I was trying to draw between the old course
Speaker 2: andry Pines and beth Page is kind of a middle
Speaker 2: ground between the two. It has the same problem where
Speaker 2: its identity is being a very difficult course, but it's
Speaker 2: also part of a complex of courses that provide more
Speaker 2: of a spectrum of beginner to very good golfer. And
Speaker 2: it's got the sign by the first t you know
Speaker 2: this course is meant for or I think it's like
Speaker 2: not for beginners.
Speaker 1: I think it's like an expert player.
Speaker 2: It's like a black diamond whatever the black diamond sign
Speaker 2: is at a ski resort. It's the equivalent on a
Speaker 2: golf course. But there are people camping out in their
Speaker 2: cars to play beth Page for a reason because it's
Speaker 2: a really interesting design over a great ground. You it's
Speaker 2: killing hast course and you could debate how well the
Speaker 2: restoration was done there, but there's certainly something about it
Speaker 2: that makes people keep coming back and it's successful. Even
Speaker 2: when it was even pre restoration, people were camping out
Speaker 2: in their cars, and I think that was the main
Speaker 2: important the thesis was that this was an incredibly popular
Speaker 2: place before it hosted the US Open, before it had
Speaker 2: Reese Jones do the redesign, while it was you know,
Speaker 2: bare dirt in the roughs and you know, just generally
Speaker 2: not great conditioning. The reason being because the design was fantastic,
Speaker 2: and there's not that many places where you can get
Speaker 2: a fantastic design and not be a member of a
Speaker 2: country club.
Speaker 1: And it was something where even though most golfers probably
Speaker 1: walked off and couldn't tell you what they loved about
Speaker 1: the design, they knew they love something exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, golf courses aren't interchangeable, right. There's a reason
Speaker 2: why people are going back to beth Page and driving
Speaker 2: and sleeping in their car, and it's because even if
Speaker 2: they can't explain it, they know it's a special place
Speaker 2: and there's something that you can't get in other places.
Speaker 2: And if you could get it everywhere, they would just
Speaker 2: go and play their you know, their local course, but yeah.
Speaker 1: The one that's closest to them. It's just like restaurants.
Speaker 2: There's a reason that you go somewhere exactly.
Speaker 1: It's something I never really thought about, but like, there's
Speaker 1: a reason you go to this Italian place over this Italian.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not the same and people, and it comes
Speaker 2: down to so many factors. It could be just the
Speaker 2: chef is really you know, thoughtful and thinking about doing
Speaker 2: something that provides a different taste or experience or whatever
Speaker 2: it is. But it's about doing something that you know,
Speaker 2: you put a lot of effort and and you know,
Speaker 2: thought into, but it shows on the back end, whereas
Speaker 2: if you're not put that effort and thought it too,
Speaker 2: it goes to like a golf course, like you were
Speaker 2: saying earlier, the you know, like a superintendent by themselves
Speaker 2: can make a huge difference in the course. That's almost
Speaker 2: like they're like a chef all the time, you know,
Speaker 2: in that sense. I don't know if that's a good analogy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost. Maybe they're the they're like the cook.
Speaker 1: They might not have chosen the menu items, but they're
Speaker 1: the ones that execute the menu.
Speaker 2: If you have somebody thinking about it, they can make
Speaker 2: it a lot better. Yeah, it's really true.
Speaker 1: It's New York is blessed with I mean they got
Speaker 1: three courses at best page they are telling has two
Speaker 1: and a half right.
Speaker 2: Right, And it's hard to even keep track anymore because
Speaker 2: they're like spread over multiple courses.
Speaker 1: And the original thirty six at Tory was Billy Bell.
Speaker 1: But you know, they're blessed with a great municipal facility
Speaker 1: there and in so few towns have that. If the
Speaker 1: Chicago's perfect example in here, it's like there's no real
Speaker 1: good municipal option in Chicago, in the city of Chicago
Speaker 1: to play golf, Like, oh, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: that's the story for more cities than not. And you're
Speaker 1: talking about these are the responsible these are the places
Speaker 1: where we're introducing the game. You were introduced to East
Speaker 1: Potomac as a kid, when you know it was your
Speaker 1: convenience store, gas station, coffee.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And but in reality, East Potomac, and this is what
Speaker 1: your whole thesis is about, was wont so much more?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the growing up there. Like I said,
Speaker 2: the maybe the entire reason I'm interested in golf courses
Speaker 2: is because East Potomac is so bland and other courses
Speaker 2: are interesting in comparison. It kind of blows me away.
Speaker 2: The history of the course, the great design that existed there,
Speaker 2: and the path that it took to get to where
Speaker 2: it is today, and the story is fantastic. I mean,
Speaker 2: the just to like start from the beginning, the entire
Speaker 2: idea was to develop a facility that would be a
Speaker 2: model for the rest of the country to follow for
Speaker 2: active recreation. In Washington, d C. Part of that plan
Speaker 2: was to have and what year was this Around nineteen
Speaker 2: seventeen the course was started the plans for the it's
Speaker 2: called the McMillan Plan for Washington, d C. Which included
Speaker 2: much more than just recreation, but it included kind of
Speaker 2: a mapping and sighting of all the major memorial sites
Speaker 2: in the parks in the city. And as part of
Speaker 2: the parks there was going to be active recreation like hiking,
Speaker 2: in tennis and golf, and so the sighting of the
Speaker 2: golf courses ended up being kind of lumped into the
Speaker 2: whole thing. But the interesting thing for Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: Was they were trying to be trying to plan for
Speaker 2: visitors from all over the country seeing these major memorials
Speaker 2: and creating park space that's not just dedicated to the
Speaker 2: people that live there, but to the country as a whole.
Speaker 2: And so the the interesting thought there was like, how
Speaker 2: do we make the stuff that's actually designed for the
Speaker 2: locals to use kind of live up to that standard
Speaker 2: and what do we need to design? And they thought
Speaker 2: kind of they thought big about it. They thought, well,
Speaker 2: we should, we should show the rest of the country
Speaker 2: what's possible when it comes to active recreation, and golf
Speaker 2: course just ended up being like the most visible part
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: And that's like an amazing thing is that they were
Speaker 1: early trendsetters here. This was it right at the beginning
Speaker 1: of municipal golf and just the thought was, let's make
Speaker 1: this as good as we can possibly make.
Speaker 2: It exactly yeah, I mean there were only municipal courses
Speaker 2: in a few other cities on the East Coast of
Speaker 2: that time, and it was starting to get to the
Speaker 2: point where DC looked at itself and said, New York
Speaker 2: and Philadelphia and Boston have these great courses, municipal courses.
Speaker 2: And at the time they were great. They have their
Speaker 2: own stories to go with them. But do you see,
Speaker 2: there wasn't anything period, and they thought it was just
Speaker 2: such you know, a whack, It was a lacking situation
Speaker 2: for the city that they needed to rectify, and that
Speaker 2: they weren't just going to build anything. They were going
Speaker 2: to show the rest of the country what municipal golf
Speaker 2: can be and also offer it at at the time
Speaker 2: it sounds insanely affordable. Now obviously I think it cost
Speaker 2: twenty five cents when it opened, but it was actually
Speaker 2: an affordable price at the time too, and they wanted
Speaker 2: that to be a big component of it.
Speaker 1: So the land is East Potomac Park. It's right next
Speaker 1: to West Potomac Park, which has all of the national
Speaker 1: monuments in it. So you've got the Lincoln memorials over there,
Speaker 1: the blank and on the Washington Monument.
Speaker 2: Yea Jeffers Memorial connects to the White House, the mall
Speaker 2: connects to the Capitol. It's it's the that whole space
Speaker 2: is contiguous with park. It is, you know, not a
Speaker 2: stretch to say it is an immediate neighbor of all
Speaker 2: of that. And and the idea was, again, these are
Speaker 2: grand places for the country and the golf course should
Speaker 2: be an example, a grand example for the country of
Speaker 2: what what the municipal governments can do to introduce public
Speaker 2: recreation facilities.
Speaker 1: So flat, flat land, pretty pretty modest, nothing crazy, and
Speaker 1: they hired Walter Travis. Yep, who's Walter Travis? Where does
Speaker 1: he fit in? At this point in his career.
Speaker 2: Walter Travis was an amazing golfer in his own right.
Speaker 2: He won the US Amateur and the British Amateur. One
Speaker 2: of the best golfers in history, and was extremely well
Speaker 2: known at the time and had trans transferred his talents
Speaker 2: from playing golf actively to being a golf course architect.
Speaker 2: At that time, he had built Garden City and Aquanic
Speaker 2: in Vermont and was kind of at the height of
Speaker 2: his powers as a golf architect. He was working at
Speaker 2: the time at Columbia Country Club in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: And Walter Harbin, who was a member there kind of
Speaker 2: an influential guy in the Washington DC golf scene, recommended
Speaker 2: Walter Travis to the people in the Washington d C
Speaker 2: Planning in a group to design the course City's Potomac Park.
Speaker 2: And he took a look at the course and was like, well,
Speaker 2: this is reclaimed land from the Potomac River. It's relatively flat,
Speaker 2: it's kind of shaped in this triangular shape going downstream
Speaker 2: in the river. It kind of looks like St Andrew's. Honestly,
Speaker 2: if you look at it in an aerial he was.
Speaker 1: The first in Walter Travis and his player. He was
Speaker 1: the first American to win the British Am.
Speaker 2: Yeah, first American. Oh no, he's not an American, he's Australia. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he was the first non British person to win
Speaker 2: the British Am. So he was a big deal for
Speaker 2: doing that. And he was a naturalized American citizen at
Speaker 2: that point, so I don't know what you can count
Speaker 2: him as an American, but but yeah, he was. He
Speaker 2: looked at the site and he said, you know what,
Speaker 2: this is the perfect place to build a reversible golf course.
Speaker 2: And he was he was a proponent of reversible courses.
Speaker 2: Why right, Well, because especially in this in this case,
Speaker 2: they're a great way to create variety day to day
Speaker 2: and also spread out the wear and tear from a
Speaker 2: maintenance perspective. And when you think about how that applies
Speaker 2: to a municipal course, where the idea is you're going
Speaker 2: to get a lot of people around, it's open to everybody.
Speaker 2: And at the time there were a lot of avenues
Speaker 2: to play golf if you weren't a member of a
Speaker 2: country club. So they were planning for a lot of
Speaker 2: golf and the idea of a reversible you know, course
Speaker 2: makes a ton of sense in that scenario where day
Speaker 2: to day the way people walk around the place is different,
Speaker 2: and so the wear patterns that in a different situation
Speaker 2: might cause maintenance problems over time, you know, you can
Speaker 2: spread those out and keep the entire place in better shape.
Speaker 2: At the same time, if you play one day in
Speaker 2: one direction and then you play the next day in
Speaker 2: the other direction, it feels like a totally different course.
Speaker 2: So you get a lot, uh, you know, a lot
Speaker 2: of bang for your buck in that scenario.
Speaker 1: So then so then he starts building he originally they
Speaker 1: just did nine, right, yep. So what was the result
Speaker 1: of the first nine in terms of like, you know,
Speaker 1: how was it received and what was the course like?
Speaker 2: Right, So it was always intended to be holes. They
Speaker 2: built nine at first because their budget allowed. That opened
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty and it was overwhelmingly popular. Like I said,
Speaker 2: it cost twenty five cents. They had lines, the course
Speaker 2: was full of people all the time. The management at
Speaker 2: the time had never managed the golf course. They did
Speaker 2: not know what they were doing. They had to eventually
Speaker 2: turn it over to concessioners. The National Park Service is
Speaker 2: the actual umbrella overseer of the property, so their whole
Speaker 2: system of putting people in charge of their various facilities
Speaker 2: is called the concession system. So they picked somebody to
Speaker 2: take over, and this guy Leffler was the concessioner. He
Speaker 2: had never managed a golf course, but realized pretty quickly
Speaker 2: that it was so popular he could make a ton
Speaker 2: of money doing it, and so he streamlined everything and
Speaker 2: then actually raised the money to build the remaining nine
Speaker 2: and part of that money was raised from the government.
Speaker 2: They need to kind of continue the investment that had
Speaker 2: been promised to the course. So the first nine was
Speaker 2: received so well that the USGA was looking for a
Speaker 2: site for its second Public Links tournament, and they said,
Speaker 2: if you build the other nine, we'll host it here basically,
Speaker 2: and so the USGA chows East Potomac, which kind of
Speaker 2: was the impetus for finishing the second nine as quickly
Speaker 2: as they as. They ended up doing it. So in
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty three they hosted the second ever USGA Public
Speaker 2: Links Tournament at East Potomac, which was a great success
Speaker 2: and the course hosted over one hundred thousand rounds pretty
Speaker 2: quickly after that, you know, going forward, and it was overrun.
Speaker 2: It was really successful.
Speaker 1: If in a short way, how would you describe, like,
Speaker 1: you know, just the way the golf course played in
Speaker 1: terms of, you know, what were the core features of
Speaker 1: it and and you know how did it kind of
Speaker 1: challenge great players but play obviously be wildly popular with
Speaker 1: the beginner.
Speaker 2: Right, So I would say the key elements where it
Speaker 2: was pretty open, so you could hit the ball all
Speaker 2: over the place and you'd find your ball, but it
Speaker 2: was extremely well trapped. This course had hundreds of bunkers,
Speaker 2: and the bunkers faced multiple directions, so they ended up
Speaker 2: being clustered where you'd have maybe two bunkers facing one
Speaker 2: way and two bunkers facing the other way.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a principal's nose.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be the king of Principal's nose facilities,
Speaker 2: Like there's never been more principal's noses in one place
Speaker 2: than any Spotomac. And then the greens were Walter Travis
Speaker 2: style greens, which, if you're not familiar with them, involve
Speaker 2: a lot of contour, little ledges, a lot of really
Speaker 2: natural looking move and they're not. They're not tame at all.
Speaker 2: And so what he did was he actually had, for
Speaker 2: the most part greens that faced one you know, half
Speaker 2: the green would face one direction of play and the
Speaker 2: other half would be tilted towards the other direction, So
Speaker 2: you'd have an up and over in the middle.
Speaker 1: And then that backpen would be running away.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and and then you'd you'd be running away
Speaker 2: generally to fairway on the other side, so it's not
Speaker 2: going to kill you. Going over would be a good
Speaker 2: play in those experient But there still exists that Walter
Speaker 2: Travis's original plans for the greens, and the plans are fascinating.
Speaker 2: There's they're well, they're easily rebuilt where you know, if
Speaker 2: you if you wanted to, there's nothing. The whole course
Speaker 2: is relatively flat, so you're not going to encounter a
Speaker 2: situation where you like, you can't get that back. But
Speaker 2: there's there's some really pretty intricate and interesting greens that
Speaker 2: I feel like they're just waiting to be, you know,
Speaker 2: put back in place.
Speaker 1: Out there a second nine Goods built, they host the
Speaker 1: publinks and this place is just a rousing success.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: What happens after this?
Speaker 2: So really kind of like the story of a lot
Speaker 2: of golf in the United States. The Great Depression had
Speaker 2: its effect on golf, though because it was the only
Speaker 2: public facility in the DC area, it actually didn't affect
Speaker 2: it as badly as you'd think. In fact, the real
Speaker 2: downfall of the course seems to have come from the
Speaker 2: concessioner himself, who was interested in getting as many people
Speaker 2: around the course as he could. In interest of that,
Speaker 2: he started simplifying the course, He started flattening greens, and
Speaker 2: he was the person who eventually made the course go
Speaker 2: only in one direction. Basically did as much as he
Speaker 2: could to increase the pace of play so that he
Speaker 2: could get as many people around the course as possible.
Speaker 2: He also built a driving range on the on the site,
Speaker 2: which eliminated a couple holes on the original course because there.
Speaker 1: Was so after the Travis eighteen, they built a Flynn
Speaker 1: nine right, and then they built another nine ye a
Speaker 1: short course, so to say. And then that's when he
Speaker 1: decided the driving range. He needed a new driving range.
Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, So the original driving range was this kind
Speaker 2: of small, narrow affair on the edge of the property
Speaker 2: and it didn't, you know, intersect with the golf at all,
Speaker 2: and it was I think an afterthought at first. As
Speaker 2: as golf grew in popularity and it became the place
Speaker 2: to learn, which is a great thing, the need for
Speaker 2: a range that that could host more people kind of grew.
Speaker 2: So his solution was actually to eliminate the ninth hole
Speaker 2: on one of the original nines, and then it also
Speaker 2: eliminated a swath of the Flynn course, and by doing that,
Speaker 2: the ripple effect on both designs was huge ended up
Speaker 2: losing I think at the time the range was built.
Speaker 2: That was actually the time that the golf course stopped
Speaker 2: being reversible, So this would be mid nineteen thirties, so
Speaker 2: the course lasted as reversible for fifteen years or more.
Speaker 1: How many rounds were they doing a year?
Speaker 2: Oh they're doing, you know, eighty two one hundred thousand
Speaker 2: rounds a year, which sounds unbelieva golfing. Yeah, season, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it was arousing success. And unfortunately the golf
Speaker 2: course seems to have been a victim of its own
Speaker 2: success because it was so popular, they weren't able to
Speaker 2: accommodate as many people as they'd like on the course.
Speaker 2: So the concessioner thought, well, let's get as many people
Speaker 2: around as possible, So he started eliminating bunkers and flattening
Speaker 2: greens and eventually building a driving range to host people
Speaker 2: who are just getting started, which changed the course for
Speaker 2: the worse and then eventually ended the reversibility aspect.
Speaker 1: So how did it post driving range? You know, it's
Speaker 1: still a very popular course today, even devoid of any
Speaker 1: you know interest, Yeah, post driving range and post all
Speaker 1: these changes. What you know kind of happened to the
Speaker 1: golf course over the years is did the popularity? You know,
Speaker 1: it's not doing eighty thousand rounds a year anymore, is it?
Speaker 2: I think the total on the three courses there, so
Speaker 2: there's an eighteen whole course, the Blue course, nine hole
Speaker 2: White course which is executive length, and nine hole par
Speaker 2: three course. Read they did a total of about ninety
Speaker 2: thousand rounds last year or in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: So the three courses combined now do less than the original.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, of course it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what was fascinating is that's with beginners, you know,
Speaker 1: outdated equipment.
Speaker 2: Reading. The stories about people playing the original course when
Speaker 2: it was that crowded are kind of hilarious because, as
Speaker 2: you'd expect, there are people complaining about the number of
Speaker 2: beginners and the fact that they didn't know golf etiquette
Speaker 2: and they're slowing everybody down. I'm sure the pace of
Speaker 2: play at that time was so much faster. So when
Speaker 2: you when you kind of mix that group of you know,
Speaker 2: anywhere from an expert to a beginner, all out on
Speaker 2: the same place, trying to play as fast as you can.
Speaker 2: If you're going to do that and get one hundred
Speaker 2: thousand rounds in, I can't even imagine what it must
Speaker 2: have been overrun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, who knows. It's unbelievable that it was that popular.
Speaker 1: That's the thing I mean when I was reading this,
Speaker 1: like the amount of rounds and they had, they had
Speaker 1: presidents dropping their games at Chevy Chase to go play
Speaker 1: at East.
Speaker 2: Potomac, President Wilson and President hard President Harding, I think
Speaker 2: played there three times a week routinely. I mean there
Speaker 2: are private courses, as you're saying, around the DC area
Speaker 2: where you would expect a president to go and play,
Speaker 2: and yet they were playing in East Potomac, which just
Speaker 2: shows you the quality of the course at the time.
Speaker 1: So today East Potomac it's run who run the National
Speaker 1: Parks runs it.
Speaker 2: Right, so there's been a series of concessions contracts that
Speaker 2: have kind of governed the operation of the course since
Speaker 2: its inception. The original concessioner lasted until nineteen eighty three
Speaker 2: on a series of five to seven year contracts, and
Speaker 2: then Golf Course Specialists, which is the current concessioner, took
Speaker 2: over in nineteen eighty three and again on seven year contracts.
Speaker 2: The problem with that system is it's not designed to
Speaker 2: make the types of investment in infrastructure that are needed
Speaker 2: to keep a golf course because it takes time. Exactly,
Speaker 2: it takes time, and it takes more money than I
Speaker 2: think a National Park Service is used to spending on
Speaker 2: those sorts of things. And I say that in the
Speaker 2: sense that the National Park Service outside of Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: I think, operates two other golf courses. So they're not
Speaker 2: set up to do this sort of thing, and they
Speaker 2: don't they're not setting up their concessions contracts to deal
Speaker 2: with it either. The contracts specify exactly what they can do.
Speaker 1: They're probably the same contracts they use for all.
Speaker 2: Things, and they're they're limited in that they say you
Speaker 2: have to operate at this level, you have to pay
Speaker 2: us this much, and you can't do anything that costs
Speaker 2: more than X. Let's just say that it's basically what
Speaker 2: the setup is. So from the beginning, the courses have
Speaker 2: been set up to disintegrate over time more or less.
Speaker 2: You know, it's been sped up by the need to
Speaker 2: get more people around and building the driving range and
Speaker 2: all of those things that kind of happened relatively early on.
Speaker 2: But since then it's been a steady decline brought about
Speaker 2: by a lack of investment in infrastructure, and they've slowly
Speaker 2: lost a lot of the features that made it cool
Speaker 2: to begin with, or all of them, more or less.
Speaker 1: So from what I gather, there's momentum. There's talks of actually,
Speaker 1: you know, I've heard it from multiple people, of starting
Speaker 1: to do right by the courses. Beyond East Potomac, they
Speaker 1: have Rock Creek, which is an eighteen hole William Flynn
Speaker 1: design where I remember reading The Nature Faker, a book
Speaker 1: about William Flynn, like it might have been Harding also
Speaker 1: said this was like the most beautiful piece of ground
Speaker 1: he's ever walked on. And then there's also Langston, which
Speaker 1: has you know, a ton of history from the racial
Speaker 1: side of things. It was a course that was built
Speaker 1: for the Africa Americans and you know, really became the
Speaker 1: place where they, you know, African Americans learned the game
Speaker 1: of golf.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And each of the courses have their own stories
Speaker 2: and they're so compelling that I think it's a good
Speaker 2: time to One of the things that I had always
Speaker 2: annoyed me about East Potomac was the concession set up
Speaker 2: from the National Park Service and how it really contributed
Speaker 2: to the degradation of the course over time. But having
Speaker 2: done more research into the history of the courses, I
Speaker 2: realized something that's really made me think about that differently.
Speaker 2: So in the nineteen forties and earlier than that as well,
Speaker 2: East Potomac was the white golf course, golf course for
Speaker 2: white people in Washington, d C. And the African American
Speaker 2: golfing community was playing at the time in an area
Speaker 2: around the Lincoln Memorial and the National Park Service, as
Speaker 2: the overseer of the courses at the time, had a
Speaker 2: policy of desegregation, and theoretically the courses were supposed to
Speaker 2: be open to everybody. That included Rock Creek and Langston,
Speaker 2: but East Potomac was the jewel of the DC golfing crown.
Speaker 2: So African Americans were interested in playing the course, and
Speaker 2: the National Park Service really protected them and allowed them
Speaker 2: to go out and play and even brought in police
Speaker 2: to keep things safe for them. At the exact same time,
Speaker 2: the Washington d C. Government was scheming to take over
Speaker 2: the operation of the DC golf courses, and they pushed
Speaker 2: very hard and did some kind of underhanded things to
Speaker 2: make the concessioner look bad and to take over operation
Speaker 2: from the National Park Service. But the National Park Service
Speaker 2: fought and fought and fought to keep it under their
Speaker 2: purview and that and and keep access available for everybody.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they knew what was happening. And
Speaker 2: the DC government took it over, they were going to
Speaker 2: enforce their policy of segregation. So when I get frustrated
Speaker 2: now thinking about the concessions contracts and how East Potomac
Speaker 2: has become what it's become, you know, the way I
Speaker 2: used to look at it has been turned on its head.
Speaker 2: It's actually got a really great reason for that, and
Speaker 2: and it makes me happy protected that it didn't before.
Speaker 2: So it's it's great to learn that sort of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it protected it, protected it in a much more important way.
Speaker 1: So with the kind of push and I know there's
Speaker 1: just been buzz around it. What are you know, what
Speaker 1: would it take to say, restore these three golf courses
Speaker 1: to what they could be.
Speaker 2: So the thing that's happening right now, the National Park
Speaker 2: Service has decided that the courses would be in better
Speaker 2: hands with somebody that can make a larger investment, and
Speaker 2: that their typical structure doesn't work, so they're going to
Speaker 2: open them up. And this is really unusual for them
Speaker 2: to a forty to fifty year lease and the same
Speaker 2: operator would have to come in and operate all three
Speaker 2: DC courses. Now, the question that just brings to mind
Speaker 2: like what should happen in a scenario like that, And
Speaker 2: there's a lot of deferred investment over the years that
Speaker 2: all three courses that needs to happen just to make
Speaker 2: them operational going going forward. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: it gives an opportunity to say we can do something
Speaker 2: big here that we could never have done before. So
Speaker 2: it's really the time to say what should happen at
Speaker 2: these places? I mean, I know East Potomac Park the best,
Speaker 2: and my feeling there is beyond the infrastructure, there's certain
Speaker 2: drainage things that have to happen no matter what solution
Speaker 2: you want to put in places. But I would like
Speaker 2: to see the golf course restored to Walter Travis's original design.
Speaker 2: The problem with these sorts of projects is that when
Speaker 2: you start getting into spending money and making an investment
Speaker 2: in a facility like East Potomac, which is so rare
Speaker 2: in golf, it's right downtown, it's part of the city,
Speaker 2: it's accessible to so many people. I think, despite the
Speaker 2: best intentions people involved in these projects, that can't help.
Speaker 2: But let scope creep come in and it's the projects
Speaker 2: start getting bigger and bigger, and you start thinking, this
Speaker 2: would be a great place to host a PGA Tour event,
Speaker 2: and what do we need to do if we're going
Speaker 2: to do that, And all of a sudden, what was
Speaker 2: a fantastic place for people to learn and kind of
Speaker 2: a gathering place for golfers of all scale levels becomes
Speaker 2: something different and more than anything, I just want to
Speaker 2: protect what makes the place special right now, which is
Speaker 2: is that it's a cross section of the community. It's
Speaker 2: a place that's really welcoming, and it's a great place
Speaker 2: to learn.
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating thing right now Chicago is going through
Speaker 1: the same thing. They're you know, they're looking at converting
Speaker 1: eighteen holes of Jackson Park, which is one of the
Speaker 1: oldest golf courses. It was built for the World War
Speaker 1: for the World Fair. You know, it's one of the
Speaker 1: oldest courses in the world, in the in the country
Speaker 1: and in South Shore, which is a historic country club
Speaker 1: that fell on hard times and city bought it up.
Speaker 1: It's right on the lake. Twenty seven holes of golf
Speaker 1: that's really affordable, you know, it's not good. But turning
Speaker 1: twenty seven into eighteen holes of championship, you know, golf
Speaker 1: designed by Tiger Woods that could host a PGA Tour event.
Speaker 1: And it's the same situation where I think Jackson Park
Speaker 1: didn't have the design pedigree of Walter Travis. But when
Speaker 1: you think about what I find so fascinating about this
Speaker 1: East Potomac is like the intention that was set when
Speaker 1: they originally went out to do it, and it was
Speaker 1: to bring off to the masses, yep in the best
Speaker 1: possible way, and that's what they did.
Speaker 2: Exactly, I mean the original design. So it's the balance
Speaker 2: of there can be a great design and it can
Speaker 2: be available to everybody, and there's nothing stopping that exact
Speaker 2: situation from coming back. I mean, it's already affordable and
Speaker 2: accessible to everybody, but there's nothing that says you can't
Speaker 2: maintain that and also have a great design. My concern
Speaker 2: with the general direction of most proposals for thees Potomac
Speaker 2: Park is that you lose the affordable, accessible and welcoming
Speaker 2: to everybody portion of the equation, even if you get
Speaker 2: the great design. And it's about making that balance.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, is that the thing that you
Speaker 1: uncovered with you know, our earlier conversation with the old course,
Speaker 1: the Bethpage black Tory pines, like, when you can hit
Speaker 1: strike the balance of affordability for everybody in the community
Speaker 1: with great design, that that's the recipe. That's what's making
Speaker 1: presidents leave their country club to come play three days
Speaker 1: a week at the municipal course the course of the people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great design is engaging to everybody. It's not just
Speaker 2: for great players. And there are pine valleys and places
Speaker 2: like that that are great design and geared towards great players,
Speaker 2: but there are a lot more examples of great design
Speaker 2: that is fun and interesting for everybody. That would be
Speaker 2: a perfect model. And you don't even need a model
Speaker 2: for East Between Park, you actually have the original design.
Speaker 1: You have the model.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the models there and that that brings it back
Speaker 2: to the National Park Service. Their general mission is to
Speaker 2: is to and to show off what's great about a
Speaker 2: certain place, and I think rebuilding Walter Travis's design is
Speaker 2: perfectly in sync with that mission. Is it is what
Speaker 2: should happen there because it honors the history. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you think about cities, right, they're constantly undergoing change
Speaker 2: and there's new buildings built, but ideally you're holding onto
Speaker 2: all the best older buildings and the things that bring
Speaker 2: character to the city. And this is one of those
Speaker 2: things that should be held onto and it shouldn't be
Speaker 2: ditched for a PGA tour event, you know, course or
Speaker 2: whatever it should be to bring the golf, the interesting
Speaker 2: and great design of Walter Travis to the masses, that's
Speaker 2: what it should be.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating because there aren't any regular PGA tour courses
Speaker 1: that come to mind that are affordable for the masses
Speaker 1: like and that are architecturally interesting. They end up all
Speaker 1: being like two hundred and fifty dollars courses that really
Speaker 1: you shouldn't even bother going to see because they're built
Speaker 1: for the one percent. It's Chicago had one. They had
Speaker 1: cog Hill. Cog Hill was one of the great public
Speaker 1: gems in the country and they chased the US Open. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and now the course is empty all the time, and
Speaker 1: they have a golf course that just you know, to
Speaker 1: speak frankly.
Speaker 2: Stinks'd that's that stuff is really sad. It's really sad.
Speaker 2: I mean the you know, the the course at East Potomac,
Speaker 2: you know it, it just belongs to the city and
Speaker 2: to the people. When you when you decide that you're
Speaker 2: going to prioritize an event, it fundamentally changes that vibe.
Speaker 2: And I you know, there's all the models like at
Speaker 2: beth Page right, it's cheaper for a New York City
Speaker 2: resident or a New York resident than it is elsewhere.
Speaker 2: And that's fine, but it's I think when that is
Speaker 2: the goal, because you're because the event is the thing
Speaker 2: that drives. It doesn't matter whether you have a model
Speaker 2: that you know is preferable to the locals. Even amongst
Speaker 2: the locals, it's going to change who's playing there and
Speaker 2: what it feels like.
Speaker 1: And I think that that golf course the way, the
Speaker 1: way it's maintained reflects, you know that. Yeah, where they've
Speaker 1: lost you know, the fairways are maybe sixty percent yeah
Speaker 1: what they should be.
Speaker 2: I will give the shout out to the current superintendent,
Speaker 2: who it seems like is doing a fantastic job there.
Speaker 2: They've converted a lot of the course to Bermuda and
Speaker 2: cut down trees and exposed views to the Potomac and
Speaker 2: it's all in the right direction. But I always feel
Speaker 2: like with East Potomac to the extent that it you know,
Speaker 2: it has gone. And we didn't get into this earlier,
Speaker 2: but there's been flooding fairly early on that caused settling
Speaker 2: on the property and it doesn't drain very well, and
Speaker 2: there's not a lot they can do to fix the
Speaker 2: major issues. But whatever they're doing is kind of chasing
Speaker 2: their tail, like it's it's only it's only money that
Speaker 2: they're going to have to spend again the next year
Speaker 2: to redray in an area or whatever they're they're putting
Speaker 2: lipstick on a on a pig. That might not be
Speaker 2: the best phrase for this, but but yeah, they're doing
Speaker 2: a great job with what they can do, but you
Speaker 2: just can't do more.
Speaker 1: Well, there's given Yeah, and the soul has been ripped out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no design there really too. You know, it's
Speaker 2: interesting to the about thirty yards to the left of
Speaker 2: the current first screen in the rough sits the original
Speaker 2: first screen and it's just sitting there and you would
Speaker 2: never know. It's just in rough and the cart path
Speaker 2: kind of goes really close by it, but you could not.
Speaker 2: There are things there that that are, you know, direct
Speaker 2: descendants of the original design. It's just there's not a
Speaker 2: ton because it's been messed with. But there this there's
Speaker 2: this like string of mounds between the tenth and the
Speaker 2: eighteenth holes that used to house like already cross bunkers
Speaker 2: and it was probably great, like a pretty substantial feature
Speaker 2: that was that was pretty dramatic. Again, you know, it's
Speaker 2: just kind of like sitting there waiting to be uncoveraged.
Speaker 1: Another key thing with this, the East Potomac model is
Speaker 1: like what we look at with today's municipal golf, Like
Speaker 1: the general like the mindset they had when they set
Speaker 1: out to do things like we're going to make the greatest,
Speaker 1: like we're going to showcase the model for municipal golf,
Speaker 1: and it was the most interesting municipal golf, like that
Speaker 1: going like, could you imagine an architect proposing to a
Speaker 1: municipality to do a reversible golf course. What would happen?
Speaker 2: No, And it comes to mind. My wife is a
Speaker 2: landscape architect in DC, and when they're involved in public projects,
Speaker 2: and I think this is typical across a lot of
Speaker 2: different you know, things that happen in in in public works.
Speaker 2: They make it design, and then the first thing that
Speaker 2: happens when the design starts going through review is the
Speaker 2: funds available for the project aren't quite what they thought,
Speaker 2: so they value engineer things out, and the first thing
Speaker 2: to go are the interesting design elements, the things that
Speaker 2: make something special. And I think that happens in public
Speaker 2: buildings now every you know, all across the board, that's
Speaker 2: the case. Whereas when you look back at kind of
Speaker 2: the great buildings, you know, especially like civic centers and
Speaker 2: things city halls that were built earlier in the twentieth century,
Speaker 2: like early twentieth century, they're so ornate and interesting, and
Speaker 2: there is clearly an emphasis on design showcasing the importance
Speaker 2: of government or whatever it might be. And that's gone now.
Speaker 2: I just you never see public projects put in a
Speaker 2: place that kind of emphasis on design anymore. But clearly
Speaker 2: at the time that you Spotomac was being built in
Speaker 2: Rock Creek, that was there with the DC you know,
Speaker 2: public golf courses, that they wanted to build something that
Speaker 2: would stand out and be significant and show what's possible.
Speaker 1: And the ironic thing was that the design that they
Speaker 1: were they that these sophisticated, world class architects Flynn Travis
Speaker 1: were doing, was the best design to get the most
Speaker 1: enjoyment of every skill player out of it. That's the
Speaker 1: thing is that what I you had a great quote
Speaker 1: in your thesis, good golf architecture and affordability are not
Speaker 1: mutually exclusive. Municipal golf courses need to feature quality design
Speaker 1: at a price locals can afford to play frequently. And
Speaker 1: that's the ethos of this whole thing is that at
Speaker 1: a core, East Potomac set out to build the greatest,
Speaker 1: you know, municipal golf course that in the country, and
Speaker 1: they did it by building a golf course that was
Speaker 1: still exceptionally challenging for the regular player, but so playable
Speaker 1: for the regular guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you think about it, it hosted a
Speaker 2: major tournament in its first full year of existence and
Speaker 2: still got one hundred thousand rounds through it that same year.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's crazy to even think about it, but
Speaker 2: that one hundred thousand round number comes from a full
Speaker 2: on cross section of the golfing community in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: At that time, probably heavily skewed to non country club
Speaker 2: members who are just starting to play.
Speaker 1: It's it's an interesting, just whole case study where where
Speaker 1: can people go to learn more about the East Potomac
Speaker 1: and the future of it with this, you know, bid
Speaker 1: out for management and what can they do to help
Speaker 1: and if they wanted to help get it restored what were.
Speaker 2: Starting to figure a little bit of that out all la.
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to get the lay of the land
Speaker 2: and understand who is trying to be involved in this.
Speaker 2: Now there's an RFI out from the National Park Service
Speaker 2: about exactly what should be involved when they put this
Speaker 2: lease out. The next step after that would be to
Speaker 2: do a formal RFP where people, operators and various others
Speaker 2: would put forth proposals to actually take on the lease
Speaker 2: for the three DC golf courses. As this whole thing
Speaker 2: plays out, I'll know a lot more about what's happening
Speaker 2: in the general direction you can go to find more
Speaker 2: information about the courses themselves by the National Park Service
Speaker 2: has put out a couple of really good histories of
Speaker 2: golf in the in the DC area that specifically talk
Speaker 2: about East Potomac, Rock Creek and Langston. By googling for those,
Speaker 2: that's probably the best starting point. You could also read
Speaker 2: my thesis, which is available on the University of Georgia website.
Speaker 1: I'll put a link to that in the podcast.
Speaker 2: Not but I think the most important stuff that you
Speaker 2: know will be relevant to the future of the courses
Speaker 2: hasn't really happened yet, and we have to figure out
Speaker 2: it's possible that people who have pushed this forward have
Speaker 2: the right idea and they're going to go the right way.
Speaker 2: And I've started talking to people about what their plans
Speaker 2: are and still getting a feel for it. But you'll
Speaker 2: certainly hear about it if it's not going to go
Speaker 2: that way, because I feel very strongly that there's such
Speaker 2: a great story to recapture here and that's the name
Speaker 2: of the game in it, and it goes with what
Speaker 2: the National Park Service wants for their properties anyway, So
Speaker 2: I think that will be a big push for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not just East Potomac's Langston and yeah,
Speaker 1: rock Creek.
Speaker 2: We could have a whole podcast on Langston Rock Creek there.
Speaker 2: Their stories are equally compelling.
Speaker 1: Future pode. We'll do that once we get Once we
Speaker 1: get the right bidder, we'll.
Speaker 2: Do those exactly exactly so or if the wrong bidder
Speaker 2: is involved, you know who knows.
Speaker 1: So you're on Instagram at Michael McCartin, right, that's right,
Speaker 1: and uh not Twitter?
Speaker 2: Not Twitter. Yeah, I'm not yet a master of social media.
Speaker 2: I guess okay, I wasn't not like you, you know,
Speaker 2: I just I'll just pay attention to what you're you know,
Speaker 2: you're doing and and I'll just kind of emulate.
Speaker 1: The ironic thing was I was like not on Twitter
Speaker 1: at all. I was on it, but like verily fairly
Speaker 1: active before starting this. Now just on Twitter all the time.
Speaker 1: My wife hates it, so but thanks so much for
Speaker 1: coming on. We'll we'll hopefully hopefully get some support for
Speaker 1: this and hopefully I'll'll go the right direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll keep you posted on what it'll be interesting.
Speaker 2: You've been listening to the Fried Egg podcast. We do
Speaker 2: the digging for you.
Speaker 1: M