WEBVTT - Greg Daniels - Pt. 2 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:14.280 Hi, I'm Greg Daniels. I was the showrunner of the Office. 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:20.280 Hello everyone, it's me. That's right, your trusty host Brian 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:25.640 baum Gartner, and you are listening to the Office Deep Dive. 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.120 Thank you for joining me once again today. I am 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.760 very pleased to bring you part two of three of 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:39.760 my conversation with Greg Daniels. Now, think of this as 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.400 the second act of a three act play. If Greg's 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.760 interview were the Lord of the Rings, and it was 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.880 almost as long as that trilogy, then this would be 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.960 the Two Towers, which my producer has instructed me to 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.920 say is definitively the best one. Anyhow, by now many 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.920 of you know that Greg was the creator and showrunner 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.360 of the Office, and what that means is, in addition 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:10.520 to doing a bunch of other things, the show runner 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:14.080 is basically the head of the writer's room, which is 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.440 why I wanted to save this part of Greg's interview 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.480 until now. As the official start of our mini Deep 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.600 Dive on the writing of the Office. I'm very excited 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.360 to kick this series off with Greg talking about all 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.080 of his theories on comedy writing, insights into the writer's 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:36.240 room itself, and how they came up with so many 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:40.560 great storylines. Also, towards the end of this episode, we 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:45.119 have a special cameo appearance by Ben Silverman, our executive 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.160 producer and the guy who initially hired Greg to run 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.280 the show. It was so fun to have them together 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.200 in the studio. A little hectic, but fun. Uh. And 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.440 it's always fun and educational to listen to Greg. So, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:08.600 without further ado, let's dive in with Greg Daniels Bubble 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:15.720 and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:20.679 and Squeaker cookie every month, left over from the nut before. 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.720 So Mike talked about that, you talked about a writing 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.920 staff and assembling a writing staff, um and and you 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.520 described it as being like X Men, right, that you 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:46.360 didn't want writers who would could all write the same. Yeah. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.480 I think I called it as as a baseball team. Okay, okay, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:55.359 not that I'm you know, so much more jockey or anything, 0:02:55.800 --> 0:03:00.000 but the idea that you can't get all pictures, you know, somebody, 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.400 the somebody has to be really good with a story, 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.519 somebody has to be really good with jokes. And you know, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.000 I always I feel like the story people should be 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.280 in charge. And they talk about shows jumping the shark, 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.200 and a lot of times what I think why they 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.000 jumped the shark is because the original writing staff has 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.640 the more senior people being really good at character and 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.160 story and the younger people being good at jokes. And 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.560 then three years in the senior people have left to 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.520 do their own shows. The younger people are now the 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.480 senior people, and it's all gets really jokey. But yeah, 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:36.480 so I mean that first, that first staff, The first 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.200 person I hired for anything and the whole show was 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.280 b j and U And you hired him to do 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.720 both immediately. Yes, he was a writer performer higher Yeah, 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:53.840 and Mindy also, and I saw her do her stage 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.400 show Matt and Ben, and then I read her script 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.840 and I would have met with her off either one 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:02.440 of them, and the two of them was the great 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.200 combo Paul I had worked with on King of the Hill. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.760 Who else was that first year, Well there was Mike 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.120 obviously Mike. Yeah, Mike had a lot of similar background 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:20.840 to me, like he was coming off SML and was intellectual, yes, 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.680 with the big brain and a similar haircut. So I 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.480 definitely we definitely vibed right. Some of the writers talked 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.280 about um both from Lee and Mike. This is how 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.000 they summed it up, so you can respond or disagree 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.640 that Lee and Jean were that they were really into 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.240 or they excelled at the cringe comedy factor. Yes, that 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:48.520 Mike was more optimistic. Yeah, that Mendy was more absurd 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:53.080 ist and juicy and juicy. Yes, Mendy is very good 0:04:53.920 --> 0:05:00.159 at finding actual conflict and actual romance between people. She 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:05.839 was like absurdist but but also juicy. Writer. Um, that 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:12.480 Paul was very very into Michael's worst instincts. Yeah, Paul's 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:17.720 really psychological, very already and very into psychic psychology and 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:25.960 Michael's brain. And that Jen Silata was very tied into Pam. 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:31.960 That I would disagree with. I don't, God, I don't 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:33.800 feel she was that. I mean I feel like when 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.719 I think about Jen, I think about Michael stories. I 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.920 think about like the Funeral for the Bird and stuff 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.960 like that, and she another person super into the psychology 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:49.760 of Michael Jens. Jen's fascinating. Jen is like child of 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:56.159 JPL physicists people, very brainy. Like all of her work 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:01.120 after the Office is like four remally interesting, Like she 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.559 has a screenplay where every scene is from a different 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.000 year of a guy's life and she's now doing this 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.120 animated show about trees, the protagonists or trees. And you 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.200 know she always like set something really difficult for herself, 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.200 like you're gonna do a movie about all the characters 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:21.960 are rooted in the same spot. Go but guy, I 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.920 guess he was. Well, it's interesting that you both referenced 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.719 the same episode with Michael and the Bird, and from 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.080 your perspective, it was it was Michael's story, and what 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:37.080 Mike talked about was that it was Pam facilitating this 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.680 for Michael. That ultimately, yeah, an important moment. So it's 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.520 just funny that I remember, like Jen on the white 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.600 I don't know if Mike reference the white board, but 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.960 the board. Well, okay, so so the writer's offices, right, 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.960 we had we were in the building that played as 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.720 their office building, and Michael's office on the second floor 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.080 was one of the writer's offices, and you know, we 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.479 just dressed the one wall that faced the parking lot 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:09.920 and then there was a trailer in the parking lot 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.880 behind it where we had the table readings and that 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:15.960 was like sometimes a room that the writers would go 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.840 to when they had to work something out. And that 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.200 episode was a very um tricky episode because Michael did 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.880 not know what the story was. Michael was in complete 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.640 denial that he was really upset that the guy who 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.160 had his job had died, and nobody cared in the 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.080 office like he didn't, but he wasn't aware that that 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.800 was the story, and he fixated on the bird, and 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.400 nobody knew what the story was until Pam figured it out. 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.720 But anyway, it's hard to write that it's unusual because 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.760 a lot of times we would use these talking heads 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.520 to announce what the story was. You know, it would 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.920 be like today's diversity day and you know, guys coming 0:07:55.920 --> 0:08:00.040 in to you know whatever, and um so Jen it 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.000 into that trailer and we came in and it looked 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.200 like she was tracking a serial killer. She had like 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:10.040 all these lines and you know, diagrams on the white board, 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.120 and it was all about in every moment, what is 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:16.920 Michael think is happening? What is really happening? Subconsciously, it 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.280 was like a very complex story. But that's that's my 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:27.720 like most classic gen moment to me, right Well, the 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.760 variety I've been told that this wasn't intentional. You were 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.760 looking for the best people, you were looking for specific matches. 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.040 But one of the things that you did was by 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:43.280 hiring people with such diverse backgrounds, even in acting. Right, 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.480 So on the writers, you were looking for writers with 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.440 different skills. But on the acting side, you know myself 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.880 and Rain essentially we were straight theater guys and I 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.440 was doing mostly drama. And then you had you know, 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:01.079 Steve and Angela and Oscar who were like improv guys. 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.280 And how did you get so good? That's the part 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.719 I under said. You also used to do something that 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.200 was so useful. I don't know if I've mentioned this 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.280 to you before, but we would have these scenes and 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:17.439 you need a button, but you said, You've never said 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.320 this to me before, but I thought, go ahead. I'm 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.520 glad that it was good. Like obviously it was intentional, 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:24.680 but we would get into these scenes and they'd be 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.760 funny scenes and there was no point to edit, and 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:29.560 we were like, how do we get out of the scene, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.840 And then we'd be like, Kevin, Kevin has done something. Yep, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.600 there he is. I'm very proud of that. I'm very 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.680 danged into the wall on his way out. That's the endpoint. Well, 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.080 and that I mean again, that goes to the ensemble 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.160 that was being created. I mean Randall in the beginning, yes, 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.800 but then certainly as we went on and it was 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.120 way more Matt Sown as the camera guy. He I 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.199 would I would look at him and I would give 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.319 him It was like it was like a quarterback, right 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.200 who who gave a nod to the wide receive were 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.480 like the balls coming your way, like and at the 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.439 end of the scene he would whip that camera around 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.280 because I had something that I was gonna do and 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.760 to try to find something. Well, thank you so much 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.520 for saying that. You saved us so often. And it's 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.680 it's great because you wouldn't know, you know what I mean, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.000 Like I wasn't on set all the time, right, I 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.240 mean the twenty eight episodes, you I had to be 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.800 in the editing room ton of time and with the writers. Yeah, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:25.720 and so a lot of times I would miss some 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:27.760 of the fun on set. And then you know, you'd 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.240 be in the in the depths and the with me 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.320 and you know, Dave in some room in the middle 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.720 of the night and please God, please did Brian do anything? 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.120 And you always saved the day. Oh my god, that's 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:45.079 so awesome. Um, So, how do you feel like diversity 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:49.720 Day helped created our version of the show. And was 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.040 it important to you at that time that we look 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.839 at issues of social relevance or again, was it just 0:10:55.880 --> 0:11:00.240 because it was funny? Oh well, you know the first season, Yeah, 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:08.120 a lot of them. We're great topics. And I remember 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.240 saying to everybody after we wrapped the pilot, I was like, 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.280 I had such a great time doing the pilot and 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.920 I was I remember saying to everybody, if this is 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.840 all we get, I'm happy we did a great job. 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.599 And I remember saying that after the first season. You know, 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:24.680 I said that pretty much every season for a long time. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.800 It was it was great fun and in the beginning 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:29.120 it didn't look like we were going to be on 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.240 for very long, so you you know, you took what 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.520 joy you had. Um. But definitely when we got five 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.440 episodes for season one, I know I had the feeling of, well, 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.440 let's make these five count. You know, let's say what 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.719 we can say with this show. In case this is 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.640 all we get, let's you know, do our best. And 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:53.680 in adapting it, I felt that all the themes of 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.160 the show, how how Michael would put his foot in 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.000 and everything like when you try and bring that to 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:05.600 amor race relations is the big thing that he would do. 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.640 You know, it's like our our history of slavery and 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.240 race relations and civil rights and everything. It's just more 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:18.240 present in American culture. I think there's a few interesting differences. Like, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.959 for instance, in England, for whatever reason, ambition is looked 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:28.160 at very poorly. Like how Jim was didn't seem too ambitious. 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.920 That was the way they were signaling the English audience 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.200 that he was super likable. But it's different in America, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.360 and so like I think a lot of times people 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:38.960 are more like, well, if he doesn't like a job, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.360 why doesn't he Why does any moved together right now? 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.920 And so interesting. Yeah, so that was something that that 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.840 we had to adjust and stuff. But Diversity Day was 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.960 really big. It was the first time we were like 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.280 on our own, we're not looking at any British scripts. 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:01.320 And I really wanted to set up the characters properly, 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.600 and since it seemed like of all topics and I 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.960 used this term er story you are I don't know 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:10.880 where it comes from. It kind of means like the 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:15.080 root story, like the most representative one, and like for 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.760 me on King of the Hill, it was um Hank's 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.800 unmentionable problem if you if you know that one where 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.880 he's constipated and he has to go in and have 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:30.319 a It seemed like everything that Hank was the fact 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.840 that people were talking about his constipation would be the 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.720 worst of him, you know, And so the Diversity Day 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.880 was kind of like an attempt to find that that 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.760 super representative story of like how is Michael going to 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.360 step in at the worst. And we worked out a 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:50.160 lot of interesting things with Diversity Day because I'm the 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:54.240 first time that it was broken. It was in chronological order, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.600 and it took place, I believe over a couple of days, 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:58.920 and then we were like, it doesn't feel right. It 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.880 doesn't feel right, you know, it feels more docu to 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.520 be in one day. So we kind of had this 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.040 flashback aspect to it where we we started the story 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.880 on it's the today's Diversity Day and a guy is 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:13.760 coming to train us, and then we found out, oh, 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.319 they're training because a couple of days ago you did 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:20.000 this day. We kind of flashed it back, and then 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.880 with the Pam and Jim of it, I had said 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.640 to b J, here's what I want something like this, 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.880 something like he has a terrible day, and they're in 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.680 this horrible, boring meeting and she falls asleep and her 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.640 head falls on his shoulder and it's this precious memory 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.160 for him. And then she wakes up and it was 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.440 just this little thing, but it turns totally turns his 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.560 day around. I was like, try and find something like that, 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.840 and you know, and when he came back with the outline, 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:53.880 he used that and he was like, I I tried 0:14:54.800 --> 0:15:00.520 anything better, not Um, you know, and it was sort 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.480 of like something that people had personal you know. It 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.960 just felt very relatable. And that was something I also 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:13.040 felt was a feature of Seinfeld, was observational stuff, like 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.560 really connecting with people by noticing a moment that everybody's 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.640 had but hasn't been done to death before. And I 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:23.120 felt like that was a good one, like like somebody 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.920 that you liked who kind of leaned on you or something. 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.520 And Um, and then we had Um Kum Huong was 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.280 our writer's assistant. He was the one who suggested the 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.640 thing with the cards because he had had that happened 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.240 to him and some some training thing and we were like, yep, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.040 we'll take that. That's great. It was a really great episode. 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.680 I mean, I it's hard to imagine like we did 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.920 two one episodes, but the second one might have been 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.400 the best. You know, well, it's hard to find many 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.240 that are that you could say are better. It's it's 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.520 always amazing to me when people they say one of 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.680 two things. It's like one like, oh I didn't like 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.040 it in the beginning, but then it caught on. It 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.160 was too and then you mentioned diversity down They're like, oh, yeah, 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.800 that's and that was that was the second one. Yeah, 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.440 I think that because I mean pretty much everything I 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.360 like or have had have worked on has had the 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.120 same sort of trajectory, like certainly was the case with 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:25.120 Parks and Rack. But um, it's character comedy. And if 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.160 you're going to make the choice to do that Jack 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.800 Benny thing of your money or your life and not 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.360 just have a guy stand there and tell the setup 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.360 in the punch line in the same line, right, if 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.280 you're gonna go with character comedy, you've got to learn 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.480 who the characters are, right, and the audience has to 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.920 figure it out, and that takes some time. So they 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.200 always tend to start slow. They don't start with the 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.680 bang usually, So I wasn't thrown or worried when it 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.920 started slow, right, but there's a difference between season one 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.240 and season two. Well, so that was my next question. 0:16:55.320 --> 0:17:00.320 So I, um, you felt like, to my under standing, 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.520 all of the writers disagreed with you. But after the 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.720 forty year old version and seeing Steve and seeing him 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:11.240 in a new way and what his sensibility was, that 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.560 you needed to change. Michael, that was a part of 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.120 it for sure. But like you know how I said, 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.920 the the goal with the pilot was could we even 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.280 produce something that looked like The Office? Right? It was 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.200 a production type of deal. So then going into season one, 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.840 it was like, okay, can we right the Office? Can 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.200 we write stories that are like this and are just 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.399 as good but not use the British scripts or anything 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.639 like that, And then I think we achieved that, But 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.919 then we didn't have very good ratings. And Kevin was 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.440 really a fan of the show, and the middle management 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.520 at NBC were fans of the show too, which was 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.160 really funny because I went to like whatever the upfronts, 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.600 the things where they would presented, and all the middle 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.879 management would come and tell me how much they loved it, 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.200 and they would point to the senior management as being 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.480 Michael Scotty like we could say was you know, you 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.480 could tell like they were feeling oppressed by people, not 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.280 Kevin but other people in the in the structure. But anyway, 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:18.320 it was really hard to get picked up. And Kevin said, Okay, Greg, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.199 you have to come in and pitch me how you're 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.000 going to change it, because it has to change. You 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.040 can't do the same thing season two as you did 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.159 season one. And I'm not sure exactly where I was. 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.000 I feel like I might have been on vacation or something, 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.880 but I wrote on a Napkim. I tried to come 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:39.040 up with things that would rehabilitate Michael. And also I 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.320 realized that I had been treating the office like everything 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.160 I had learned on King of the Hill didn't count. 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:48.919 There was a new show and it was like art 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.000 or whatever. And then I realized, uh no, everything I 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.840 learned on King of the Hill is still valid. And 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.480 the thing with King of the Hill was when that 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:02.199 show started, Hank wasn't very likable. Like I kind of 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.879 came in and had to rewrite that show a certain 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:11.040 amount and create situations where Hank would be able to 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.520 be kind of conservative but in a likable way. So 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.720 a lot of the other characters are there too make 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:24.399 him more likable and appropriate. And so for instance, he 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.080 has his niece there so that he can be very 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.879 boy scouty and you know what I mean, like, you know, 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.679 don't show me the whole you under under things, you know, 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:40.119 like um, and you know his his dad is way 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.840 over the top horrible, so that he's kind of you go, um, well, 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.960 poor Hank, I mean you know exactly, yeah, he's doing 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.359 his best, you know. So there was like little tricks 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.960 like that to try and kind of normalize and center 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.600 the character right, And so I come back in with 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.440 this napkin, and it had all these beats that I 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.080 felt we could create a show around, like, for instance, 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.400 the idea that Okay, his team, it feels very oppressed 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.199 by him, is always rolling their eyes at him, but 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.399 if an outsider criticized him, they'd back him up. So 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.080 that became the Dundees right where everybody's enjoying making fun 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.320 of Michael's awards show. But when when people who don't 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.159 work there start like heckling him and throwing stuff, they 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.000 kind of rally around him. And one of them was, 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.280 Michael should give somebody really good advice at some point, 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.560 and so that became Booze Crews where he's like handcuffed 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.639 to something and he tells Jim not to give up 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.560 ever and to still go after Pam, And I knew 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.840 people really wanted Jim to do that, so to hear 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.159 Michael kind of turned Jim and make him stay the course. 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.040 You really like Michael. And there's other examples of it, right, 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.960 but like, oh, good at his job, and you realize, Okay, 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:01.480 he's not a great manager, but he's a really good salesperson. 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.560 You know, he's like everything that makes him a bad manager, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.440 his caring what other people think and his changeability and 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.199 everything and desperate need to be liked makes him a 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.360 really good salesperson. So it became more like the Peter principal, 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.160 like he'd been promoted past his level of expertise here, 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.040 but that wasn't so bad. And then you know, like 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.680 seeing him with kids, like Halloween, the ending of Halloween, 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.400 to see him desperately want to have a friend at 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.639 work but you can't because you're the boss and you 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.600 have to fire somebody and just be so bummed out 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:36.440 and then just light up when the kids come trick 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.239 or treating and everything. Yeah, things like that and we 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:43.040 kind of turned the boat on him, and uh, you know, 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.720 that was a different show after that. Mike told me 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.240 that there was a lot that basically all the other 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:53.560 writers disagreed with with you about changing it. The idea being, um, 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.160 you were right, by the way, but the ideas, the idea, 0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:00.560 the idea being like, no, we're doing this will show 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.240 and if we burn into a blaze of glory, that's fine, 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:06.480 but we're gonna keep you know that idea and you 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:13.439 and you said, no, we're doing the same show, but 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.159 we're going to have just a few moments, like you 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.960 mentioned at the end of episodes, or at certain moments 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.880 where we just take him and tweak him a little bit. Yeah, 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.399 that sounds right. I mean what I was trying to 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.520 do was intention because if you can have a purity 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.960 of intention, he can do the worst things in the 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:37.560 world for comedy. But as an audience you sense that 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.639 he didn't do it in order to be cruel or 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.280 to be a jerk. He's trying so like the hardest 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.160 one of all was Scott's Tots and Lee and Jean 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:50.640 are not the guys you go to for this humanizing 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:55.280 aspect for one thing, but and you know obviously for comedy, right, 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.960 I mean, and I think Ricky and Stephen put it 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.280 in the bones of the show, right, he does the 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.200 wrong thing. The show knows what the right thing is, 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.520 but he doesn't, and he's always doing the wrong thing, 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:06.920 and that's like the bones. So it did freak out 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:08.600 the writers a little bit because they were worried that 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.639 it was gonna be too far away. Um. But with 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:18.880 Scott's taughts, I was like, okay, Um. From his perspective, 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:24.040 what he intended was he intended to be successful and 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.199 to be a hero and to be a philanthropist and 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:29.960 to make a big positive impact in these guys lives. 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.399 That was his intention. It was a good intention, you know, 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.359 it was Yeah, it was a good intention. He didn't 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:42.480 make it, but as long as you like. To me, 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:45.639 that was the key of that episode because, like most 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:48.160 of it was about the intention, and if you could 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:51.280 get that right, you could get all your jokes, but 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.080 you would still protect the character. And to me, this 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:55.960 was a very King of the Hill type of thing 0:23:56.040 --> 0:24:00.080 because like in that episode that I mentioned Hanks unmentionable problem. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:02.600 You know, it could have been all but jokes the 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:07.399