1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Greg Daniels. I was the showrunner of the Office. 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, it's me. That's right, your trusty host Brian 3 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: baum Gartner, and you are listening to the Office Deep Dive. 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me once again today. I am 5 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: very pleased to bring you part two of three of 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: my conversation with Greg Daniels. Now, think of this as 7 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: the second act of a three act play. If Greg's 8 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: interview were the Lord of the Rings, and it was 9 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: almost as long as that trilogy, then this would be 10 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: the Two Towers, which my producer has instructed me to 11 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: say is definitively the best one. Anyhow, by now many 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: of you know that Greg was the creator and showrunner 13 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: of the Office, and what that means is, in addition 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: to doing a bunch of other things, the show runner 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: is basically the head of the writer's room, which is 16 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: why I wanted to save this part of Greg's interview 17 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: until now. As the official start of our mini Deep 18 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: Dive on the writing of the Office. I'm very excited 19 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: to kick this series off with Greg talking about all 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: of his theories on comedy writing, insights into the writer's 21 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: room itself, and how they came up with so many 22 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: great storylines. Also, towards the end of this episode, we 23 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 1: have a special cameo appearance by Ben Silverman, our executive 24 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: producer and the guy who initially hired Greg to run 25 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: the show. It was so fun to have them together 26 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: in the studio. A little hectic, but fun. Uh. And 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: it's always fun and educational to listen to Greg. So, 28 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: without further ado, let's dive in with Greg Daniels Bubble 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble 30 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 1: and Squeaker cookie every month, left over from the nut before. 31 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: So Mike talked about that, you talked about a writing 32 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: staff and assembling a writing staff, um and and you 33 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: described it as being like X Men, right, that you 34 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: didn't want writers who would could all write the same. Yeah. 35 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: I think I called it as as a baseball team. Okay, okay, 36 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: not that I'm you know, so much more jockey or anything, 37 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: but the idea that you can't get all pictures, you know, somebody, 38 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: the somebody has to be really good with a story, 39 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: somebody has to be really good with jokes. And you know, 40 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: I always I feel like the story people should be 41 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: in charge. And they talk about shows jumping the shark, 42 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of times what I think why they 43 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: jumped the shark is because the original writing staff has 44 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: the more senior people being really good at character and 45 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: story and the younger people being good at jokes. And 46 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: then three years in the senior people have left to 47 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: do their own shows. The younger people are now the 48 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: senior people, and it's all gets really jokey. But yeah, 49 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: so I mean that first, that first staff, The first 50 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: person I hired for anything and the whole show was 51 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: b j and U And you hired him to do 52 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: both immediately. Yes, he was a writer performer higher Yeah, 53 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: and Mindy also, and I saw her do her stage 54 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: show Matt and Ben, and then I read her script 55 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: and I would have met with her off either one 56 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: of them, and the two of them was the great 57 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: combo Paul I had worked with on King of the Hill. 58 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: Who else was that first year, Well there was Mike 59 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: obviously Mike. Yeah, Mike had a lot of similar background 60 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: to me, like he was coming off SML and was intellectual, yes, 61 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: with the big brain and a similar haircut. So I 62 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: definitely we definitely vibed right. Some of the writers talked 63 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: about um both from Lee and Mike. This is how 64 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: they summed it up, so you can respond or disagree 65 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: that Lee and Jean were that they were really into 66 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: or they excelled at the cringe comedy factor. Yes, that 67 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: Mike was more optimistic. Yeah, that Mendy was more absurd 68 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: ist and juicy and juicy. Yes, Mendy is very good 69 00:04:53,920 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: at finding actual conflict and actual romance between people. She 70 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: was like absurdist but but also juicy. Writer. Um, that 71 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: Paul was very very into Michael's worst instincts. Yeah, Paul's 72 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: really psychological, very already and very into psychic psychology and 73 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: Michael's brain. And that Jen Silata was very tied into Pam. 74 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: That I would disagree with. I don't, God, I don't 75 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: feel she was that. I mean I feel like when 76 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: I think about Jen, I think about Michael stories. I 77 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: think about like the Funeral for the Bird and stuff 78 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: like that, and she another person super into the psychology 79 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: of Michael Jens. Jen's fascinating. Jen is like child of 80 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: JPL physicists people, very brainy. Like all of her work 81 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: after the Office is like four remally interesting, Like she 82 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,559 Speaker 1: has a screenplay where every scene is from a different 83 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: year of a guy's life and she's now doing this 84 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: animated show about trees, the protagonists or trees. And you 85 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: know she always like set something really difficult for herself, 86 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: like you're gonna do a movie about all the characters 87 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: are rooted in the same spot. Go but guy, I 88 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: guess he was. Well, it's interesting that you both referenced 89 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: the same episode with Michael and the Bird, and from 90 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: your perspective, it was it was Michael's story, and what 91 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: Mike talked about was that it was Pam facilitating this 92 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: for Michael. That ultimately, yeah, an important moment. So it's 93 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: just funny that I remember, like Jen on the white 94 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if Mike reference the white board, but 95 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: the board. Well, okay, so so the writer's offices, right, 96 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: we had we were in the building that played as 97 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: their office building, and Michael's office on the second floor 98 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: was one of the writer's offices, and you know, we 99 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: just dressed the one wall that faced the parking lot 100 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: and then there was a trailer in the parking lot 101 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: behind it where we had the table readings and that 102 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: was like sometimes a room that the writers would go 103 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: to when they had to work something out. And that 104 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: episode was a very um tricky episode because Michael did 105 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: not know what the story was. Michael was in complete 106 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: denial that he was really upset that the guy who 107 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: had his job had died, and nobody cared in the 108 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: office like he didn't, but he wasn't aware that that 109 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: was the story, and he fixated on the bird, and 110 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: nobody knew what the story was until Pam figured it out. 111 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: But anyway, it's hard to write that it's unusual because 112 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: a lot of times we would use these talking heads 113 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: to announce what the story was. You know, it would 114 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: be like today's diversity day and you know, guys coming 115 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: in to you know whatever, and um so Jen it 116 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: into that trailer and we came in and it looked 117 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: like she was tracking a serial killer. She had like 118 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: all these lines and you know, diagrams on the white board, 119 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: and it was all about in every moment, what is 120 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: Michael think is happening? What is really happening? Subconsciously, it 121 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: was like a very complex story. But that's that's my 122 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: like most classic gen moment to me, right Well, the 123 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: variety I've been told that this wasn't intentional. You were 124 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: looking for the best people, you were looking for specific matches. 125 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: But one of the things that you did was by 126 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: hiring people with such diverse backgrounds, even in acting. Right, 127 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: So on the writers, you were looking for writers with 128 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: different skills. But on the acting side, you know myself 129 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: and Rain essentially we were straight theater guys and I 130 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: was doing mostly drama. And then you had you know, 131 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: Steve and Angela and Oscar who were like improv guys. 132 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: And how did you get so good? That's the part 133 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: I under said. You also used to do something that 134 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: was so useful. I don't know if I've mentioned this 135 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: to you before, but we would have these scenes and 136 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: you need a button, but you said, You've never said 137 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: this to me before, but I thought, go ahead. I'm 138 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: glad that it was good. Like obviously it was intentional, 139 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: but we would get into these scenes and they'd be 140 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: funny scenes and there was no point to edit, and 141 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: we were like, how do we get out of the scene, 142 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: And then we'd be like, Kevin, Kevin has done something. Yep, 143 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: there he is. I'm very proud of that. I'm very 144 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: danged into the wall on his way out. That's the endpoint. Well, 145 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: and that I mean again, that goes to the ensemble 146 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: that was being created. I mean Randall in the beginning, yes, 147 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: but then certainly as we went on and it was 148 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: way more Matt Sown as the camera guy. He I 149 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: would I would look at him and I would give 150 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: him It was like it was like a quarterback, right 151 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: who who gave a nod to the wide receive were 152 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: like the balls coming your way, like and at the 153 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: end of the scene he would whip that camera around 154 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: because I had something that I was gonna do and 155 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: to try to find something. Well, thank you so much 156 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: for saying that. You saved us so often. And it's 157 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: it's great because you wouldn't know, you know what I mean, 158 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: Like I wasn't on set all the time, right, I 159 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: mean the twenty eight episodes, you I had to be 160 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: in the editing room ton of time and with the writers. Yeah, 161 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: and so a lot of times I would miss some 162 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: of the fun on set. And then you know, you'd 163 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: be in the in the depths and the with me 164 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: and you know, Dave in some room in the middle 165 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: of the night and please God, please did Brian do anything? 166 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: And you always saved the day. Oh my god, that's 167 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: so awesome. Um, So, how do you feel like diversity 168 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: Day helped created our version of the show. And was 169 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: it important to you at that time that we look 170 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: at issues of social relevance or again, was it just 171 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: because it was funny? Oh well, you know the first season, Yeah, 172 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: a lot of them. We're great topics. And I remember 173 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: saying to everybody after we wrapped the pilot, I was like, 174 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: I had such a great time doing the pilot and 175 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: I was I remember saying to everybody, if this is 176 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: all we get, I'm happy we did a great job. 177 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 1: And I remember saying that after the first season. You know, 178 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: I said that pretty much every season for a long time. 179 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: It was it was great fun and in the beginning 180 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: it didn't look like we were going to be on 181 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: for very long, so you you know, you took what 182 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: joy you had. Um. But definitely when we got five 183 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: episodes for season one, I know I had the feeling of, well, 184 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: let's make these five count. You know, let's say what 185 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 1: we can say with this show. In case this is 186 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: all we get, let's you know, do our best. And 187 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: in adapting it, I felt that all the themes of 188 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: the show, how how Michael would put his foot in 189 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: and everything like when you try and bring that to 190 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: amor race relations is the big thing that he would do. 191 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's like our our history of slavery and 192 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: race relations and civil rights and everything. It's just more 193 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: present in American culture. I think there's a few interesting differences. Like, 194 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: for instance, in England, for whatever reason, ambition is looked 195 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: at very poorly. Like how Jim was didn't seem too ambitious. 196 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: That was the way they were signaling the English audience 197 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: that he was super likable. But it's different in America, 198 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: and so like I think a lot of times people 199 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: are more like, well, if he doesn't like a job, 200 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: why doesn't he Why does any moved together right now? 201 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: And so interesting. Yeah, so that was something that that 202 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: we had to adjust and stuff. But Diversity Day was 203 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: really big. It was the first time we were like 204 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: on our own, we're not looking at any British scripts. 205 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: And I really wanted to set up the characters properly, 206 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: and since it seemed like of all topics and I 207 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: used this term er story you are I don't know 208 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: where it comes from. It kind of means like the 209 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: root story, like the most representative one, and like for 210 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: me on King of the Hill, it was um Hank's 211 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: unmentionable problem if you if you know that one where 212 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: he's constipated and he has to go in and have 213 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: a It seemed like everything that Hank was the fact 214 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: that people were talking about his constipation would be the 215 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: worst of him, you know, And so the Diversity Day 216 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: was kind of like an attempt to find that that 217 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: super representative story of like how is Michael going to 218 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: step in at the worst. And we worked out a 219 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: lot of interesting things with Diversity Day because I'm the 220 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: first time that it was broken. It was in chronological order, 221 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: and it took place, I believe over a couple of days, 222 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: and then we were like, it doesn't feel right. It 223 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: doesn't feel right, you know, it feels more docu to 224 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: be in one day. So we kind of had this 225 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: flashback aspect to it where we we started the story 226 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: on it's the today's Diversity Day and a guy is 227 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: coming to train us, and then we found out, oh, 228 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: they're training because a couple of days ago you did 229 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: this day. We kind of flashed it back, and then 230 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: with the Pam and Jim of it, I had said 231 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: to b J, here's what I want something like this, 232 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: something like he has a terrible day, and they're in 233 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: this horrible, boring meeting and she falls asleep and her 234 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: head falls on his shoulder and it's this precious memory 235 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: for him. And then she wakes up and it was 236 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: just this little thing, but it turns totally turns his 237 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: day around. I was like, try and find something like that, 238 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: and you know, and when he came back with the outline, 239 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: he used that and he was like, I I tried 240 00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: anything better, not Um, you know, and it was sort 241 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: of like something that people had personal you know. It 242 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: just felt very relatable. And that was something I also 243 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: felt was a feature of Seinfeld, was observational stuff, like 244 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: really connecting with people by noticing a moment that everybody's 245 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: had but hasn't been done to death before. And I 246 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: felt like that was a good one, like like somebody 247 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: that you liked who kind of leaned on you or something. 248 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: And Um, and then we had Um Kum Huong was 249 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: our writer's assistant. He was the one who suggested the 250 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: thing with the cards because he had had that happened 251 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: to him and some some training thing and we were like, yep, 252 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: we'll take that. That's great. It was a really great episode. 253 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I it's hard to imagine like we did 254 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: two one episodes, but the second one might have been 255 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: the best. You know, well, it's hard to find many 256 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: that are that you could say are better. It's it's 257 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: always amazing to me when people they say one of 258 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: two things. It's like one like, oh I didn't like 259 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: it in the beginning, but then it caught on. It 260 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: was too and then you mentioned diversity down They're like, oh, yeah, 261 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: that's and that was that was the second one. Yeah, 262 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: I think that because I mean pretty much everything I 263 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: like or have had have worked on has had the 264 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: same sort of trajectory, like certainly was the case with 265 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: Parks and Rack. But um, it's character comedy. And if 266 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: you're going to make the choice to do that Jack 267 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: Benny thing of your money or your life and not 268 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: just have a guy stand there and tell the setup 269 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: in the punch line in the same line, right, if 270 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna go with character comedy, you've got to learn 271 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: who the characters are, right, and the audience has to 272 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: figure it out, and that takes some time. So they 273 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: always tend to start slow. They don't start with the 274 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: bang usually, So I wasn't thrown or worried when it 275 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: started slow, right, but there's a difference between season one 276 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: and season two. Well, so that was my next question. 277 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: So I, um, you felt like, to my under standing, 278 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: all of the writers disagreed with you. But after the 279 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: forty year old version and seeing Steve and seeing him 280 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: in a new way and what his sensibility was, that 281 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: you needed to change. Michael, that was a part of 282 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: it for sure. But like you know how I said, 283 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: the the goal with the pilot was could we even 284 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: produce something that looked like The Office? Right? It was 285 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: a production type of deal. So then going into season one, 286 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: it was like, okay, can we right the Office? Can 287 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: we write stories that are like this and are just 288 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: as good but not use the British scripts or anything 289 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: like that, And then I think we achieved that, But 290 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: then we didn't have very good ratings. And Kevin was 291 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: really a fan of the show, and the middle management 292 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: at NBC were fans of the show too, which was 293 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: really funny because I went to like whatever the upfronts, 294 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: the things where they would presented, and all the middle 295 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: management would come and tell me how much they loved it, 296 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: and they would point to the senior management as being 297 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: Michael Scotty like we could say was you know, you 298 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: could tell like they were feeling oppressed by people, not 299 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: Kevin but other people in the in the structure. But anyway, 300 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: it was really hard to get picked up. And Kevin said, Okay, Greg, 301 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: you have to come in and pitch me how you're 302 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: going to change it, because it has to change. You 303 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: can't do the same thing season two as you did 304 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: season one. And I'm not sure exactly where I was. 305 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: I feel like I might have been on vacation or something, 306 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: but I wrote on a Napkim. I tried to come 307 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: up with things that would rehabilitate Michael. And also I 308 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: realized that I had been treating the office like everything 309 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: I had learned on King of the Hill didn't count. 310 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: There was a new show and it was like art 311 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: or whatever. And then I realized, uh no, everything I 312 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: learned on King of the Hill is still valid. And 313 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: the thing with King of the Hill was when that 314 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: show started, Hank wasn't very likable. Like I kind of 315 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: came in and had to rewrite that show a certain 316 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: amount and create situations where Hank would be able to 317 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: be kind of conservative but in a likable way. So 318 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: a lot of the other characters are there too make 319 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: him more likable and appropriate. And so for instance, he 320 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: has his niece there so that he can be very 321 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: boy scouty and you know what I mean, like, you know, 322 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: don't show me the whole you under under things, you know, 323 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: like um, and you know his his dad is way 324 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: over the top horrible, so that he's kind of you go, um, well, 325 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: poor Hank, I mean you know exactly, yeah, he's doing 326 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: his best, you know. So there was like little tricks 327 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: like that to try and kind of normalize and center 328 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: the character right, And so I come back in with 329 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: this napkin, and it had all these beats that I 330 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: felt we could create a show around, like, for instance, 331 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: the idea that Okay, his team, it feels very oppressed 332 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: by him, is always rolling their eyes at him, but 333 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: if an outsider criticized him, they'd back him up. So 334 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: that became the Dundees right where everybody's enjoying making fun 335 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: of Michael's awards show. But when when people who don't 336 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: work there start like heckling him and throwing stuff, they 337 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: kind of rally around him. And one of them was, 338 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: Michael should give somebody really good advice at some point, 339 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: and so that became Booze Crews where he's like handcuffed 340 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: to something and he tells Jim not to give up 341 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: ever and to still go after Pam, And I knew 342 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: people really wanted Jim to do that, so to hear 343 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: Michael kind of turned Jim and make him stay the course. 344 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: You really like Michael. And there's other examples of it, right, 345 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: but like, oh, good at his job, and you realize, Okay, 346 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: he's not a great manager, but he's a really good salesperson. 347 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: You know, he's like everything that makes him a bad manager, 348 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: his caring what other people think and his changeability and 349 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: everything and desperate need to be liked makes him a 350 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: really good salesperson. So it became more like the Peter principal, 351 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: like he'd been promoted past his level of expertise here, 352 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: but that wasn't so bad. And then you know, like 353 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: seeing him with kids, like Halloween, the ending of Halloween, 354 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: to see him desperately want to have a friend at 355 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: work but you can't because you're the boss and you 356 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: have to fire somebody and just be so bummed out 357 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: and then just light up when the kids come trick 358 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,239 Speaker 1: or treating and everything. Yeah, things like that and we 359 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: kind of turned the boat on him, and uh, you know, 360 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: that was a different show after that. Mike told me 361 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: that there was a lot that basically all the other 362 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: writers disagreed with with you about changing it. The idea being, um, 363 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: you were right, by the way, but the ideas, the idea, 364 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: the idea being like, no, we're doing this will show 365 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: and if we burn into a blaze of glory, that's fine, 366 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: but we're gonna keep you know that idea and you 367 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: and you said, no, we're doing the same show, but 368 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: we're going to have just a few moments, like you 369 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: mentioned at the end of episodes, or at certain moments 370 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: where we just take him and tweak him a little bit. Yeah, 371 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: that sounds right. I mean what I was trying to 372 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: do was intention because if you can have a purity 373 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: of intention, he can do the worst things in the 374 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: world for comedy. But as an audience you sense that 375 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: he didn't do it in order to be cruel or 376 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: to be a jerk. He's trying so like the hardest 377 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: one of all was Scott's Tots and Lee and Jean 378 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: are not the guys you go to for this humanizing 379 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: aspect for one thing, but and you know obviously for comedy, right, 380 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: I mean, and I think Ricky and Stephen put it 381 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: in the bones of the show, right, he does the 382 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: wrong thing. The show knows what the right thing is, 383 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: but he doesn't, and he's always doing the wrong thing, 384 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: and that's like the bones. So it did freak out 385 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: the writers a little bit because they were worried that 386 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: it was gonna be too far away. Um. But with 387 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: Scott's taughts, I was like, okay, Um. From his perspective, 388 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: what he intended was he intended to be successful and 389 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: to be a hero and to be a philanthropist and 390 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: to make a big positive impact in these guys lives. 391 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: That was his intention. It was a good intention, you know, 392 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: it was Yeah, it was a good intention. He didn't 393 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: make it, but as long as you like. To me, 394 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: that was the key of that episode because, like most 395 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: of it was about the intention, and if you could 396 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: get that right, you could get all your jokes, but 397 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: you would still protect the character. And to me, this 398 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: was a very King of the Hill type of thing 399 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: because like in that episode that I mentioned Hanks unmentionable problem. 400 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: You know, it could have been all but jokes the 401 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: whole time. But we played it like a medical drama 402 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: where the real conflict was Peggy saying, why don't you 403 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: open up to me? You're gonna die. I mean, she's 404 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: having dreams that his rest since it's going to kill him, 405 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: and she's gonna be a widow, you know. So we 406 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,719 Speaker 1: we played this sort of realistic drama aspect, and then 407 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: you got all your poop jokes that you wanted, you know, 408 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: but it didn't look like that was the point, so 409 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: you had a little bit more leeway and sort of 410 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 1: the same thing. I think that you know, it really 411 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: hurt Michael that he wasn't able to be the guy 412 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: he thought he was going to be when he made 413 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: these promises, So you kind of got all your being 414 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: a jerk comedy jokes, but you also were like, it's 415 00:24:44,000 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: not the worst guy in the world. Yeah. A few 416 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: people talked to you about one of your core ideas, 417 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: which is the idea of truth and beauty. Yeah. That 418 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: was my thing with Randall, the truth and beauty, Truth 419 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: and beauty. Yeah, and what does that What does that 420 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: mean to you? Um? Well, you know to me, that 421 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: was I think that's some romantic poet. I'm not sure 422 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: where that came from somebody like John Keats or something. 423 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: I don't know, and I don't even know what he 424 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: meant by it. But the way I used to use 425 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: it with Randall was that's what we're going for in 426 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: the camera, right Let the camera seek out truth. That's 427 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: what it's trying to find. That's the point of a documentary. 428 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: What's the truth? And also not like a cynical negative truth, 429 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: like also where where's the beauty? It's like another principle 430 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: of photography of like a good photograph is, you know, 431 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: a little sprig of weed coming through the cracked concrete 432 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: or whatever, You know what I mean. It's like, where 433 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: gonna do something that's a little bit inspiring, but find 434 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: it in a truthful way out in the real world. Right. Well, 435 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: Mike Sure talked about it, and you told a story 436 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: about a parking lot, an endless parking lot with lines 437 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: and parking spaces, and in one crack there's a little flower, 438 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: a little dandelion. He said that it's funny. I just 439 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: made the same. Yes, I think that that, you know, 440 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: I like the notion of aesthetic, like what do you 441 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: searching for? In art? And the Japanese have interesting aesthetics 442 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: with a cracked pot. Did you mention that to use 443 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: that a lot? So? I think it's called woo. I'm 444 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: not sure, but it's the notion of a perfect pot 445 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 1: is okay, you know, and we in the West probably 446 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: value a perfect pot, but a cracked pot where the 447 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: crack suddenly makes you feel the history of the pot 448 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: and the people who have used it in their family 449 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: and have treasured it and kept it even with the 450 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: crack in it, like it suddenly cracks through you know it, 451 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: suddenly we'll we'll touch you. It's those little details often 452 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: of imperfections that's like a it's just a cool sort 453 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: of philosophy. Yes, yeah, I have so far off topic. 454 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: But a number of years ago, my parents were moving 455 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: out of their house and I went for a week 456 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: and I was like helping them and throwing out all 457 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: of this trash and we go into like the corner 458 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: of the closet in a guest room that no one 459 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: ever slept in, And in the closet there was a 460 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: big piece of paper that was folded up and I 461 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: I unfolded it and it was a Kennedy poster that 462 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: my dad had like handed out or seen or collected 463 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: or whatever. And I remember saying to him, can I 464 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: have this? And he's like, yeah, it's like all torn 465 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: or whatever. And I took it and I framed it 466 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: and I took it to this place and they were like, oh, 467 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: we can you know, do this or that, and I 468 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: was like, no, no, no, the crack has to stay 469 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: there and the wrinkle, the folded marks just as lightly 470 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: as you can matt this on something and enclose it, 471 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: because I want that history of it. I don't know 472 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: that idea. Well, also, like I mean, you know, I 473 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: don't get too psychological, but you know, when you think 474 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: about your dad, right, you're so the relationship that you 475 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: have with your father, the fact how old that they are, 476 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: and just the sense of like passage of time being 477 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: important to that relationship and fragility of it and knowing 478 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: that it may not be around forever, and that I 479 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: can completely see why a tear in your dad's poster 480 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: adds to the emotion of it. Yeah, right, yeah, totally. Um, well, 481 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot about writing that isn't necessarily only about 482 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: the office. But you know, like when you have a 483 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: set of principles that you're trying to do for the show. Right, 484 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: if you're going to say, all right, I want to 485 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: be realistic, I want to be relatable. Uh you know, 486 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: I want to be observational. If you're going to follow 487 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: those principles, you're gonna end up commenting on what's around you. 488 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: And this to me goes back a long way. It 489 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: isn't unique to the show necessarily, but like when I 490 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: was on The Simpsons, which is this is you know, 491 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: complete cartoon, but the way that one Simpsons writer one 492 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: respect from another Simpsons writer when I was there, was 493 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: you did something super real. You had a line that 494 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: just found like it just came out of a teenager 495 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: and it was just perfectly you know, real to the situation. 496 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: And somehow, in contrast to the cartoon, nois of it 497 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: that always seemed to be like a cool thing. And 498 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: then when I got to King of the Hell, we 499 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: used to do a lot of research. We would go 500 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: to Texas. I'd take the writers to Texas every season 501 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: and we'd fan out with our report. There's notebooks and 502 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: we you know, we'd try and dig up unique stories 503 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: because I always felt like the shows that I really liked, 504 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: the stories were original, like something had happened to one 505 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: of the writers or you know, they weren't just going like, well, 506 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: what did what did cheers do? Let's do a version 507 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: of that or something. You had to go out and 508 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: do your own work and dig up your own stories. Right. Well, 509 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: Mike Shert told me even multiple years into the run 510 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: of the show, and at this point we're a huge hit. 511 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: When we went to Scranton for the Writer's convention, they 512 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: did the same thing you sent that you said, fan out, go, 513 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: you know, go walk down this street, see what places 514 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: you find, and they found restaurants and yeah, it was cool. Yeah, 515 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: a lot of them. Of course, like when we've done that. 516 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: When we did the show, the internet was a thing, 517 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: so you could go online and search all the bars 518 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: and you know, Google map or whatever see what they 519 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: look like from the outside. But a lot of that 520 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: happened while we were doing the show. And Phil was 521 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,479 Speaker 1: great that Phil Shay used to go to Scranton and 522 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: have all these deals with different businesses and radio stations, 523 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: and he'd come back with props for the set. They 524 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: were all super authentic. Well, and on that note, going 525 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: back a little bit, but why did you pick Scratton 526 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: in the first place. Yeah, well, there were a lot 527 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: of factors that went into that. So you wanted to 528 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: place that was outside of a city, but they never 529 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: went and in place there was a little faded. And 530 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: I felt the northeast part was kind of important to me, 531 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: like it was an adaptation of an English show and 532 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: something about the north northeast. New England kind of mid 533 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: Atlantic felt more like England in certain ways. And Scratton 534 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: has like a name that's kind of hard to say. 535 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: It's it's a comedy word, it's got a case ound, 536 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: it's a Scranton, you know. But the interesting thing was 537 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: that when you know, when I picked it, I talked 538 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: to of people at Scranton journalists and there's this guy, 539 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: Josh mccauliffe, I worked at the scrant newspaper, and he 540 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: was really skeptical that we were going to be nice 541 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: to Scranton. And I had to say to him, look, 542 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: you know, I did came up the hill. I went 543 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: to Texas. I didn't make fun of them. I understood them. 544 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: I like did the work to figure out what life 545 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: was like for people in Texas. And the point is 546 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: not to do cheap jokes making fun of the environment 547 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: with points to be specific and find a world and 548 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: you'll be okay, don't worry. Right, So it did work 549 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: out nicely. Like I think we got to love Scranton 550 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: by going to visit for that convention and and then 551 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,719 Speaker 1: it was, you know, amazing to come back and go 552 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: to the ball field and everything. And I think it's 553 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: been good for the city. And the other thing is, 554 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: like the city is so much more beautiful then. You 555 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: know our corner of Van Nye that we were shooting 556 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: in next to the Granite Cutter at it like we 557 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: did a little bit of an injustice to how pretty 558 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: the city is, right, A lot of natural beauty, very 559 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: hard to recreate and van Nye. Yes, oh we have 560 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: a special we have a special guest that's coming in. Hi. 561 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for every fun with us. Look 562 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: at you, you're the one that got this awesome. Yes, 563 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: look at this years later. It cool, so cool. Yeah, 564 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna come back. All right, Well you're welcome 565 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: to join in. Yeah yeah, Benny, sit down and pull 566 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: that microphone in front of you. Um did you say 567 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: we're rolling? Okay, just make sure that Mike is close 568 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: to you. Greg when, Um, what were your first impressions 569 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: of Ben when met with that. Let me see, well, 570 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 1: you know, Ben, like I grew up in New York. 571 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: So Ben has the vibe that I recognized that was 572 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: fun for me, Like I could sense that he grew 573 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: up in the same kind of environment of sort of brainy, 574 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, city life, and that was really fun. And 575 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: he's got an enthusiasm like energy that I don't have, 576 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: Like you know, when you're talking about, you know, the 577 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: methodical nature, you could also say maybe plotting how I 578 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: approached stuff. And Ben is like you know, mercury, like 579 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 1: he zooms in and but also very able to draw 580 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: pieces in from all over the place and make a 581 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: coherent vision. So I remember finding been very cool and 582 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: attractive to hang with, and and Greg was always my 583 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: first choice, so that probably put me in a good 584 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: position for Greg to view me nice. It's always but 585 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: and and the thing when you say that about the 586 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: New York thing, and then we progress to Greg's father 587 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: now plays bridge with my mother's best friends, you know, 588 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: fifty years later, you know, So it's incredible. Also, the 589 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: experience that we both had in connecting on this show 590 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: was like about the architecture of television and the architecture 591 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: of the idea because so much about it was newly conceived. 592 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: But we kept talking about with a shared love of television. 593 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: We were not We were people who love TV, and 594 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: we grew up loving TV, you know, and all of 595 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: those elements drew us. And I think what was incredible 596 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: about Ricky and Stephen in our initial dialogues that we 597 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: had with them is that they also love TV an 598 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: American TV, an American TV in American cinema. Yeah, that 599 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: was an interesting thing. Like when I grew up in 600 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: New York on PBS, you get Monty Python or Fawlty 601 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: Towers or something, and you go, oh my god, British 602 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: TV is so great, you know, it's so smart, and 603 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: they would only get our best stuff. They would only 604 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: get like Friends and Seinfeld or whatever. And they grew 605 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: up with the exact same feeling of like, oh my god, 606 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: we can never compete. American TV is only the best, 607 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: the best of the best, right And when I was 608 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: expressing at some point to Ricky and Stephen how much 609 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: I was a fan of British TV, they were like 610 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: most of us thinks, you know, because they you know, 611 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: they'd seen like all of the failures or whatever that 612 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: they had been exposed to and they they were big 613 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 1: fans of of US TV. And I talked also Greg 614 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 1: when I was talking to Brian about the intellectual rigor 615 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: that you have as a as a person and a writer, 616 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: not just as a man. That's the cool part because 617 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: most of the time you walk into a situation people 618 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: do not want that. No, they want and and you 619 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: surrounded the entire show with that. You know, it was 620 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: an incredible group. Conan used to like so in the 621 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: big very beginning of my career, I was writing Partners 622 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: with Conan O'Brien and he used to say to me, 623 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: when you overthink, you start to stink, because he he 624 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: kind of pegged me as an overthinker, so that that 625 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: would always go through my mind sometimes. But well, but purposeful, 626 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a much nicer I like the way. Yeah, ye, purposeful. 627 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: I mean that's part of driven life of our conversation 628 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: was that we were creating something that was against network norms, 629 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: that was against how traditional sitcoms were constructed. And the 630 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: reason I say purposeful is because the decisions that you 631 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: made were made specifically to move that forward. Well, you 632 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: also could out defend anyone who wanted to shift where 633 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: we were going. Yeah, I also feel like I was 634 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: you caught me at the exact right time, because I mean, 635 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: I'm trying to add up the number of hours that 636 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: I had in the you know how they talk about 637 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: ten thousand hours, Like I had ten thours before King 638 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: of the Hill, and I probably had another fifteens you know, 639 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: from that show. But I I wasn't exhausted, you know. 640 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: I was like I definitely had a lot of good 641 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: experience and a lot of thoughts about how I would 642 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: do a live action show differently and still enough energy 643 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: to try and hunger to do it because it's so 644 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: different now, but you get kind of placed into a 645 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: framework really quickly, like oh, you're great at animation or 646 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: I was great at reality, you know, like, especially when 647 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: there's only four networks, it's so different now it's it's crazy. 648 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: But also like if you have a particular sense of humor, 649 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: when I started, there really wasn't any room for that 650 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: sense of humor in a half hour. So like I 651 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: I went to Saturday Night Live because late night was 652 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: where you had to do that kind of more niche 653 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, humor, and then cartoons. Okay, well you can 654 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of do it in cartoons. Cartoons are single camera form, 655 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: but um, you know, they seem to have their own thing. 656 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: They weren't like your typical network sitcom. And then we 657 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: had this little crack in in the selling world where 658 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: Cable had come out and HBO was big, and the 659 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: networks were like, well, what should we do? Maybe we 660 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 1: should be more like Cable? And I don't think we 661 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: would have been able without having had a British show 662 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: to hide behind, right, you wouldn't have survived. Do you 663 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: remember the marketing That was to me hilarious because when 664 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: the show of the way, they try to sell it 665 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: out of the Apprentice. Yeah, so we had, um, you know, 666 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: we've done the first season and the marketing department all 667 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: they knew was Will and Grace. So they took uh 668 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: single lines out of context pop pop pop pop pop, right, 669 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: and that was the the first ad, and out of context. 670 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: None of them played like jokes because of what we 671 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: were talking about, right, We didn't do like set up 672 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: punchline jokes. It was all behavior and context and acting 673 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: and everything, and it was horrifying. You you look at 674 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: these ads and you go, oh my god, we have 675 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: the stupidest and most unfunny show in the world. And 676 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, Cod, you guys are going down. 677 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: And I had to say, look, the frame has to 678 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: be different. You gotta blow up one moment and let 679 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: it play. Otherwise we're doomed because it isn't a you know, 680 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: a highlight reel. That's not how the show. I mean 681 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: now it kind of does. Actually, now everybody loves the show. 682 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: You could you could make a great highlight reel out 683 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: of moments because they know the character, because everybody so 684 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: invested in what they're going to do. But when you 685 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 1: introduced those characters to a broadcast platform, it was very 686 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 1: They were just like quickly, you know, cut to Michael saying, well, 687 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: they's going to be downsizing, as if it was a 688 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: joke because they got something. Um, Greg, what was the 689 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 1: decision behind making the incredible casting decision to cast Ben 690 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: as Isaac? I probably asked them, yeah, that's right. Well, 691 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: the point that I was sort of making a joke, 692 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: but that the typical agent Hollywood selling, and that Ben 693 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: and you on the outside sort of an unlikely pair. 694 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: But I will never forget. We did this UM panel 695 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 1: at the Pailey Festival and we were being idiots, telling 696 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: jokes and making the audience laugh, and then the moderator 697 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: addresses a question to Ben, and Ben goes into at 698 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: the moment, seemed like five to seven minute speech about 699 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: the history of comedy and tracing the office's roots. I mean, 700 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: just incredibly encyclopedia not edge like dissertation on comedy in 701 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: the show. And he stops talking and it's quiet, and 702 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: you turn to the moderator and you go, well, and 703 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: that's why he's my boss. Just like that, like there 704 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: was like I don't know, it was just the moment 705 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 1: has resonated to me forever. To me, that reminds me 706 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: of Lauren Michael's. Like Lauren has this ability to put 707 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: it all together and make a charismatic vision out of it. 708 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: And part of that, I think with Ben is the overview, 709 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: Like he's seeing the entire business, the history of the business, 710 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,280 Speaker 1: all these different genres inside the business, different types of shows, 711 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: what's next, what's coming down the pike. You know, the 712 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: overview is what most people don't have. And for him 713 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: to be able to put it together, you're kind of like, 714 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 1: I can't judge if it's real or not, but it's 715 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,439 Speaker 1: so it's so inspiring. It's like, well, it's just so 716 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: hard to get anyone to take any risk that if 717 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: you have and thought through every element of their organizations, 718 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: thinking about what you're trying to accomplish, you end up 719 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: running into a wall. You know, when you look to 720 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 1: align yourself with collaborators and partners along the journey who 721 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: are willing to have that fight together. However that works 722 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,879 Speaker 1: in partnership, because I look, I don't think I could 723 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: have done I mean, I mean, it was all I 724 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: could do to make the show if I had also 725 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: had to, and all they wanted to defend it, and 726 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 1: all they wanted to do was not make the show, 727 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: you know. And so that's where you have to be 728 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: able to do that and put that energy in. But 729 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: there's so many times I reflect back and I look 730 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: just how unbelievably wonderful the people were in and around 731 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: the show itself. Well, I had to like roam the 732 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: executive suits. You know, it was so sad because covered 733 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: in in blood and gore from being beaten, you know, 734 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 1: with all the these business types and he'd come to 735 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:07,839 Speaker 1: the said and we're you know, making making like I 736 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: wanted to be in. That was the business I thought 737 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: I signed up for, but oh my gosh, it was 738 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: so great to be there. And then all the choices 739 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: you made that we were able to defend and I 740 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 1: also talked about and even our physical production apparatus that 741 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,479 Speaker 1: you created was transformative for broadcast TV. Like they didn't 742 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: even understand what we were doing in our offices and 743 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 1: our writer room writers. Yeah, that they were real and 744 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: not really you know, like they were thrown by it all. 745 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: Like we found that we were kicked out of our 746 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: season one situation there. There was not a lot of 747 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,799 Speaker 1: support in the beginning, and I think for them till 748 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: they they didn't keep our sets. Yeah, they didn't wouldn't 749 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: keep it up At the time, I didn't even you 750 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: ever bring that up, but they didn't even They literally like, no, 751 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: we're not going to cover the rent till we make 752 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: this decision. Yeah. So we were out and you know, 753 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,240 Speaker 1: and we used the parking lot and Hot Girl and stuff, 754 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: and we had established what it looked like and everything. 755 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: So we had to find some place where you could 756 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: use the street and everything, and we looked all over 757 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: Van Nuys and the sad part was most of the 758 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: places we looked at I remember, no, they were doing porn. Literally. 759 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: I remember going to one place and and I was like, well, 760 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 1: this this looks sort of wholesome. What is this? And 761 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: it was there was like a set with a swing 762 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: and a tree and stuff, and and they're like, no 763 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 1: more porn, more porn. Someone told me this again in 764 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: terms of like creating that reality for the actors, that 765 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: we were going into an office. So there was a 766 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,279 Speaker 1: little room off of set, right behind the accountants where 767 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 1: you could watch stuff that was being filmed, where you 768 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: had an office, but that you built that out to 769 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: look like an office from the outside, so that the 770 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: idea was that actors when they walked onto a sound 771 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 1: stage didn't walk onto a sound stage. They walked into 772 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: a carpeted area with walls that was like an office. 773 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,839 Speaker 1: Do you remember that, not wanting the actors to go 774 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 1: onto a sound stage. I remember that on our original 775 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: set there was a very low, like low hanging lintel 776 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: or whatever, like the doorway was made of concrete or 777 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: something and very low. And I would run from my 778 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 1: office up to the set to give a note, and 779 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: I'd run back to watch it, and I'd run back 780 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: and forth and everything and I cracked my head on 781 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 1: that on that low thing. Remember that there was like 782 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,760 Speaker 1: a pass and we put a pad like Greg Daniel's 783 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: memorial forehead pad or something like that, because I kept 784 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: smacking my head on that thing. Yeah, all those smacks 785 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 1: knocked out any other memory? Why why it was there? 786 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,840 Speaker 1: All right? Well, thankfully it seems that the low hanging 787 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,880 Speaker 1: lintel did not knock out all of Greg's memories of 788 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 1: the show because we talked about it for like two 789 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: more hours. So I'm going to say the rest for 790 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: when we dive into the later seasons and ultimately the 791 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 1: end of the show. In the meantime, we will be 792 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: back next week with another interview with one of our 793 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: amazing writers. Truly, as Paul Fie once said, this was 794 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: an all star Hall of Fame writing staff. I'm so 795 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: happy we got to talk to so many of them. 796 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, listeners for listening, which is what 797 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: listeners do. And uh and have a great week. The Office. 798 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 1: Deep Dive is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, 799 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is 800 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our 801 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the 802 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, 803 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode 804 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: was mixed by Seth Olandsky