WEBVTT - How The Internet Spawned A Baby-Killing Cult 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.840 Hello, America. This is Robert Evans. I am sitting in 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:08.280 a car on top of a mountain like a professional 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:13.280 person recording my podcast, which is this podcast Behind the Bastards, 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.599 and we've had yet another, I mean, really bad introduction. Actually, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.120 I'm I'm I feel bad about this one. I actually 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.360 like that one. Oh you like that one, Sophie. That's yeah. 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.880 Well do you think that only people in America in 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:33.200 the US listen to Solid Points. If there's non Americans 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.200 listening to this podcast, what the hell are they doing? 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.479 Like this is they don't get our freedom, our freedom 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.320 of speech, that's ours and ours alone, Caitlin. The best 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.360 thing about freedom of speech is limiting it to a 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.879 small number of people. Yes, I don't agree, but I 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.040 see your point. Yeah, I firmly disagree with what just happened, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.680 and I take back my praise of your introduction. Hello, 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.240 international listeners, we love you. Yeah. I bet they're from 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:08.480 all over the world. Yes, Canada, yes, Japan. Yes, Canada 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:16.400 is just Alaska's Mexico. Mexico and Canada are both much 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.840 better countries. Um, almost spit my soup on the mic. 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.000 Oh my god, it was a bad time to try 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:28.640 to eat soup. Sorry, I took a week in rural 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.559 America to to clear my head and get some writing done, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.920 and it has made me insult our neighbors to the 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.160 north and south for no reason. You did that before? 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.240 Come on, I did, I did? I did. I love 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.800 insulting nations for no reason. Well, my guest today, as 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.840 as you just heard from, is Caitlin Duranti. Caitlin, how 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.040 are you doing today? I'm doing very well. I'm delighted 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.320 to be here now, Caitlin. You're the co host of 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.760 the Bechtel cast Um and you you have guessed it 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.080 on behind the bastards before. We had a long talk 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.760 about I think a man both of us consider a 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:06.480 dear friend now, Lafayette Ron Hubbard. Yes, yes, he just 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.360 he's coming to my birthday party soon. Oh good. You 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.640 know I think he's at all of our birthday parties, 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.280 convincing our small children to deliver letters for him on 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:20.440 his boat crusade to find gold in the ocean. Yes, god, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.920 I miss him. Well, we're not talking about that today, Caitlin, 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:30.560 And we're talking about the goat Testical doctor either, right, No, 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:35.239 we're not talking about the goat Testical got about her, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:40.080 that fucker that guy. Yeah, like Alex Jones, but with 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.960 goat testicles. No, today we're talking about the free birthing community. Caitlin, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.960 have you ever heard of the free birthing community. I 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:54.639 don't know that I have, Robert. Oh boy, Caitlin. Yes, 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.960 you're you're gonna, You're gonna enjoy this. I mean, so, 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.440 I I got where to start. I I wrote a 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.200 little introduction here, and I don't think I'm gonna read it. 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:13.760 I think we're just gonna we're just gonna dig into it. Um. Yeah, 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.440 the nexus of my introduction was that back in the day, 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.720 you know, there's this one website that's kind of like 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.520 the Tower of Babbel for the Internet, that Something Awful Forums. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.880 It's where four Chain came out of. It's where like 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.560 doxing was very first practiced. It's where a lot of 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:31.640 like meme culture originated from. UM and that those forums 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.760 had a motto, and that motto was the Internet makes 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.920 you stupid. And it was just at the time, because 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.760 it's like the late nineties, early two thousand's is when 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.680 like Something Awful was really at its most relevant. Yeah, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.120 so it was, and it was and you were you 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.640 remember then Caitlin, when the Internet didn't really matter, when 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:52.680 like it was just sort of the silly thing, and 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.840 people like mainstream TV or news kind of made fun 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.120 of people who were on the Internet a lot, like 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.200 it wasn't taken very seriously, and so I think that's 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.840 what the motto kind of meant then, was just like 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.600 the Internet's dumb. But as the years have gone by 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.640 and the Internet has eaten the world, I've come to 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.600 believe in those words very literally. The Internet does actually 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.640 make people stupid um and I think to the free 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.279 birth in community in particular is a perfect example of 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.600 how this works, because, thanks to the wonders of the 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.680 modern Internet and most particularly Facebook, a bunch of otherwise 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.839 well meaning, functional human beings have left a trail of 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.480 dead babies in their wake, not because they wanted to 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.520 kill babies, but because the Internet broke their brains. And 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:42.600 that's the story we're going to tell today. Wow, okay, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:47.960 sided this is a dead baby episode. Oh my okay, 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.440 wait okay. Initial question, preliminary question, do you know anything? 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:54.960 I don't know anything about the free birthing community, but 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.560 I have a feeling that there's got to be some 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.240 overlap between it, and just based on what I think 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:06.560 it is, based on the name alone, overlap between that 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:12.719 community and the anti vaxers. You absolutely, oh yeah, okay 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:21.039 for god, oh my god. Um yeah, it's uh, it's 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.800 pretty cool, Caitlin, and I want to welcome you, by 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.320 the way, into a really rarefied circle of of Bastard's 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:32.000 pod guests. Uh. Currently, Sophia Alexandria Billy Wayne Davis are 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.600 the only two members of the Dead Babies Episodes sub club, 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.279 So very can we get a couple of aircorns in 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.600 there for for the third member of our Dead Baby Triumvirate? Yes, 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:49.120 I just added so much. Are you wandered, Caitlin? I'm 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.279 so honored? And what what a group to be a 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.600 part of. I mean, the I and Sophia, I mean, 0:05:54.680 --> 0:06:02.200 what what terrific people, so rarefied air verified air now, Caitlin. Uh, 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.520 if you, if you, or at least sorry not even you, Caitlin. 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.640 If you the listener at home have heard about the 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:11.160 free birthing community recently, it's probably because of a fabulous 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.240 NBC News article by Brandy's a Drowsney that dropped a 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.800 couple of days ago, and the article's title was I 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.159 brainwashed myself with the internet. Uh. It is the story 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.240 of a twenty eight year old woman on the West Coast, 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.040 pseudonymed Judith, who found yourself slowly drawn into a series 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.159 of online communities of women who believe that the best 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.120 way to give birth is with no medicine, no doctor, 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.159 and no midwife. So, you know, we're all aware that 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.680 there's like home birthing um sort of like communities and stuff. 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.280 These are people who are like that, but they're like, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:45.640 but midwives are evil too. Oh wow, I don't want 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.120 anyone who knows that goddamn thing about medicine around for 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:54.520 my birth. Like that's the gist of these people, A right, yeah, yeah, 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.560 So that's a fun thing that I hadn't realized existed 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:00.640 until I read this article. And the t l d 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.240 R of the story is that Judith left her baby 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.880 in her belly for way too long, more than forty 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.240 two weeks, because these people believe, among other things, that 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.960 having your labor induced, you know, medically is um is 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.240 on an awful thing to do and an unnecessary thing 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.560 to do. So she was pregnant almost three weeks past 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.320 the nine month mark and refused to go to the 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:28.000 hospital and her baby died inside of her um. Yeah, 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:29.920 this is the first time we've had a first dead 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:34.200 baby on page one. We're not even halfway through page one. Yeah, 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.160 I bring that out in people, you know, the dead, 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:43.600 the dead babies. I don't know what I meant by that. Yeah, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:48.240 I got wet. I just my presence encourages people to 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.080 talk about dead babies, as I think what I meant, Well, 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.160 that's good. Well we'll be talking about a number of 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:57.520 them today. So obviously, Judith's story was a traumatic, painful nightmare. UM. 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.400 And she's far from the only person that this kind 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.400 of nightmares happened to as a result of the free 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.760 birth in community. Uh. The NBC article itself links to 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.560 a November two, eighteen Daily Beast article by Emily Sugarman. 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.800 The article's title is she wanted a free birth at home, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.920 when the baby died, the attacks began, and it's it's 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:16.840 the story of a woman named Lisa and her would 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.120 be daughter, Journey Moon. Uh. Lisa got drawn into the 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.520 free birth in community via like Facebook groups and podcasts, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.960 and her baby died. Uh. And then she was harassed 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.240 by a bunch of people online who are angry that 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.800 she'd killed her baby who had been infiltrating these free 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.480 birth and communities. It's a mess of a story, and 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.600 the tales of these two women comprise about of the 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.640 public discourse around free birthing at the moment. It's kind 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.800 of very recently burst onto the scene. But there's so 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.240 much more here under the surface, uh, than is even 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.000 in both of these very well written articles, And today 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.600 I I felt like what I could do to add 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.080 to this is dig a little bit deeper into where 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.760 the free birth in community comes from and the individual 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.959 I'm gonna call himbastards who were aspond posible for starting 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.720 what is effectively a weird cult dedicated to getting people 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.560 to basically kill their babies by not having anyone who 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.640 knows anything about medicine around when they come out of people. 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:17.960 Cool fun story. Can't wait? You sound really motivated by 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.080 this to be a part of this fun tale. I 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.560 so am you. You have no idea, just I I 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.600 have no ability to like emote with my voice, but um, 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:35.400 I am very excited to learn about. Call that v moting. Okay, Yeah, Now, 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.520 free birthing obviously has its origins and the natural home 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.400 birth movement, and the term home birth started being used 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.360 in the mid eighteen hundreds as hospital births became more common. 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.680 At present, most so called developed nations, you know, that's 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.040 the term generally used. I don't like it, but it's 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.600 kind of hard to find. Counter terms sometimes have home 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.520 birthing rates of less than one percent um. It's broadly 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.240 accurate to say that the end of home birth thing 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.320 as a normal thing, you know, the end of that 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.480 being the way most babies were born has corresponded with 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.960 a massive reduction in the rate of both infant and 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.240 mother deaths in childbirth. So we stopped giving birth at home, 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.520 started giving birth in hospitals with doctors and a lot 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:19.160 less babies and moms die, right, pretty obvious. But here's 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.040 where it gets weird, because the situation isn't quite that simple. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.240 The United States today has one of the highest infant 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.360 mortality rates in the Western world. Six of our infants 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.200 die for every thousand live births, which puts the US 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.760 on par with such healthcare powerhouses as Serbia and Malaysia. 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.400 Despite regular advances in technology, matters, matters are actually getting 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.280 a lot worse for American mothers at a startlingly rapid rate. 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.800 A pregnant woman in the US today is fifty more 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:50.440 likely to die in childbirth than her mother was. Yeah, like, 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.480 that's an enormous jump in mama and baby deaths. We 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.520 woul account for that? What accounts for that? Well, there's 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.560 there's a number of intersecting factors here. One of the 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.839 ones given regularly is eroding social support for women. Um 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.760 So as a result of this like crusade against birth 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.559 control and planned parenthood by the right in our country, 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.079 women's access to obstetric services in rural U S counties 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.360 has collapsed. UH. Nine percent of all rural American women 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:23.000 lost hospital obstetric services between two thousand and two thousand fourteen. UH. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.440 The shocking expensive birth plays a major role in this. 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.880 Two people who just can't afford to to do it 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.440 in a hospital. So between the cost and the sheer 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.520 lack of access, the fact that growing communities of American 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.680 women have been turning to home birth is not weird 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:40.120 um and it's not necessarily harmful either. The Netherlands actually 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.320 has a really high rate of home births. In two 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.360 thousand nine, the largest study of its kind was conducted there, 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.480 analyzing more than five thousand births and finding no difference 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.280 in the birth or death rates of home births versus 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.000 hospital births. And you'll hear the studies cited a lot 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.360 by home birthing advocates, and they all tend to leave 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.280 out something critical, which is that the home birthing there's 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.440 in this Netherlands study, we're all women who were determined 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.640 by a doctor beforehand to have low risk pregnancies. So 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.480 if you have a competent midwife and if a doctor 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.079 is consulted first to make sure you're a low risk pregnancy, 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.120 home birthing can be perfectly safe. That's the one thing 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:18.880 I want to get out of the way first. But 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:21.559 our free birthing friends who are going to be talking 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.880 about today, they don't use midwives and they for sure 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.800 as ship don't consult doctors um. And most of the 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.040 Facebook groups with these people gather explicitly list advising another 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.959 person to seek medical attention as a bannable offense. So 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.040 they'll say, like, if you advise anyone to go to 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.880 a doctor to induce pregnancy to like talk to an O, B. G. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.559 Y in or whatever, um like, we'll kick you out 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:48.559 of the group because this is not about that. Okay, 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:54.280 so they these are the people I feel like, these 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:59.160 are the people who, like if they were uh, you know, 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:00.800 convicted of a time, or they had to go to 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.840 court or something, they'd be like, I'm going to represent myself, 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:10.559 Like I don't need a lawyer, I'm on my own. Wow. Yeah, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.480 there's that phrase, like a person who defends themselves in 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.440 court has a fool for a lawyer. I guess a 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:23.840 person who delivers their own baby as a fool for obstetrician. Yes. Yeah, 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.000 So the first Facebook page that comes up now when 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.280 you google free birth Facebook group currently hosts an image 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.959 meme that says we are all descendants of someone who 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.200 birthed at home without a licensed midwife. Um, and that 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.000 is true, But you could just as easily say we're 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.080 all descendants of someone who died at home giving birth 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:48.720 without any sort of medical assistance, because that's equally true. Right. Yeah, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.880 we all have a gramma here who got through a 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.760 couple of babies and then couldn't make it past fifth 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:58.960 or sixth or whatever. Right, Yeah, this is gonna be 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.280 a fun one. That just made me think, like, who, like, 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.240 did I have like a great great great great grandmother 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.360 who like died during childbirth, but like their baby survived, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.480 and like I'm the descendant of Yeah, that's got to 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:17.240 be true for us. Of us, there's no one who's 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.280 somewhere in their family line doesn't have multiple people who 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.400 died during childbirth. Like that's that's just a guarantee, just 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.720 because of the way the world biology and ship worked 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.480 and works. So when we're when we're trying to unravel 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.160 the mystery of how this deadly freebirth and community came to, 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:34.800 because I wanted to kind of trace it back to 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.120 its origins. And my first question when I started doing 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.080 that was when did this whole movement split off from 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.000 just the home birthing movement? And as best as I 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.000 can tell, a lot of it traces back to the 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.240 story of one woman named Catherine's Skull now MS. Skull 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.600 was a former Chicago police officer, and she was pregnant 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.000 with her fifth child um back in two thousand eight. 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.600 She was admitted to Rush University Medical Center and received 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.040 an unpleasant surprise. Her normal obstetrician was out of town 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.880 on vacation, so instead of the doctor she was comfortable with, 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.400 she was attended to by a stranger and a stranger 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.080 who happened to be a really big asshole according to MS. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.960 he sucks. This guy's Dr Scott Pierce is his name, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.000 and he apparently started their interaction by yelling at her 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.920 for not coming in earlier and not calling before coming in. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.400 He informed her that because she had not given them 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.200 enough warning, there was no time for him to give 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.960 her pain medication. Then he told her that she deserved 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:31.880 to be in pain for not giving the hospital more 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:36.560 lead time, saying sometimes pain is the best teacher. Well, 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:42.760 it's like, not not a great doctor. Um. He next 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.120 gave her an extremely rough vaginal exam that, like she 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.520 described as unnecessarily rough and painful while she was in 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.960 mid contraction um, and then he ordered her to begin 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.640 pushing before she was fully dilated. He told her repeatedly 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.320 that her baby might die, and had a loud phone 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.000 conversation in the next room about abortion, telling another one 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.280 of his patients that stupid woman, she has no business 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:12.560 being pregnant. So pretty bad story. Yeah, yeah, not how 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.720 you want a pregnancy to go. Um. And Catherine Scholl 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.560 is not the bastard here. She filed a civil suit 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.640 against Dr Pierce. Uh. He was eventually fined five hundred 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.160 dollars and sentenced to one year of medical probation, which 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.720 seems like a reasonably fair punishment for his crime. Yeah, 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.400 I would well find only five and I think the 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.680 fine could have been higher. The fine should have been higher. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.600 But like, yeah, he was definitely like when a medical 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:39.200 board looked into it, they found out that like, yeah, 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:43.800 this guy's behavior was completely unacceptable and the story of 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.000 so like Catherine School did nothing wrong. Um, she was 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.040 abused by a doctor, she filed a suit against him, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:52.520 and he was punished. You know, we could argue the 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.840 punishment should have been more, but her part of the story, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.760 she acted perfectly reasonably. But the story of Catherine's School 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.640 took off like wild fire among the networks of mommy 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.399 blogs dedicated to the natural birthing movement UM, and without 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.240 knowing it, school became a rallying point for other women 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.639 who had bad experiences with their doctors during childbirth. School 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.879 story helped to galvanize a community of birthing extremists who 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.480 had started organizing online, and one of the very first 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.280 and perhaps the founder of the free birthing movement was 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.480 an Australian woman named Jeannette Frasier. Jeanette founded the website 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.640 Joyous Birth in two thousand seven. In December of that year, 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.920 she coined the term birth rape in a blog entry 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.560 to refer to what she thought people like Dr Pierce 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:42.880 were doing to their patients. Birth rape. Yeah. Um so 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:47.480 here's here's kind of her explaining what that means. I 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.520 don't care if you don't like the word or the idea. 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.879 It's real, So get used to it. Survivors are angry 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:53.960 and we're starting to talk about it. Remember that old 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.600 anti violent slogan, Well, it means even in hospitals and 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.320 even in stupid hospital gowns, when I say no, it 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.480 means no. When you shove your arm and a woman 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.080 who's screaming no, that's rape. When you rupture those membranes 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.240 because you have to tick the box that comply with protocol, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.879 even when the woman screams no, that's rape. When you 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.359 slash a woman's vagina with scissors and she's screaming no, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.320 that's rape. And on the streets that would earn you 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.000 a jail sentence. Your green gown is not protection. Do 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.119 that to me and I will charge you. Don't forget it. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.240 We are angry, and we are powerful. We have survived 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.879 your raping protocols, so we can survive anything. Be afraid, 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:27.679 and don't underestimate us. And I'm curious kind of for 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.640 your thoughts on that. I'll tell you sort of where 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.160 eye land on this, which is that I'm sure there 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.600 are a lot of things that happen to women who 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.560 are giving birth that they may say no about. Because 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.199 once you're giving birth to a baby, the doctor is 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.360 going to like legally has to do whatever he can 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.720 or she can do to make sure that baby comes 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.400 out alive. And you might not in the moment want that, 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:52.680 but you're in a hospital and that's kind of the 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.479 way hospitals go. And I'm I'm personally like, obviously I'm 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:58.800 very pro choice, but at the point in which that 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.440 baby is coming out, like the doctor is equally beholden 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.960 to the baby and to the mother. Um, that's kind 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.399 of how I think, Yeah, I'm interested in Yeah, I 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:17.520 mean the child. Like that's that does like complicate matters because, um, 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.159 you know, on one hand, you have you know, I 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.639 kind of see what she's saying, um in this in 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:28.879 this definition of this term um of you know, doctors 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.840 like you know, doing things that could be considered rape 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:38.520 or assault. Um. And like you know, the women are 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.120 you know, the people who are giving birth not giving consent, 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.120 but you know the doctor is doing something that they 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.439 deem medically necessary for you know, the safety of the 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:53.760 baby perhaps. So that is a very complicated thing. UM. Okay, 0:19:53.880 --> 0:20:00.080 so I okay, well let's let's do this. Uh. I 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.040 don't know if if you know this, Robert or um, 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:08.040 if any listeners are aware of a podcast that I've 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.760 been working on called Sludge An American health Care Story 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.919 so um, and this is all about a recent experience 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:20.680 I had with the um American health care system. Spoiler 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:25.399 shit it's it was ship. So I. And I'm not 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.720 saying that every you know, healthcare experience of every person 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.919 in the US is shitty. It's not if you have 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.560 a million dollars or more so. But you know, I 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.800 this is all to say that I have hearing people's 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.120 stories because I've started to interview other people with their 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.000 sort of medical nightmare stories, and I'm learning all these 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:50.200 different things about how certain like medical protocol is not 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:55.080 very good. Um. One specific example I will site is 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:59.960 the way that the medical community treats like intersects baby 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:05.600 these um, which is horrible, and they perform procedures and 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:12.240 surgeries that the babies can't consent to um and that 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:16.080 the parents often don't know enough about the situation, you know, 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:21.280 just all these things. So on one hand, like, yes, uh, 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.719 they're like having people who know about childbirth and who 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:30.960 know about um protocol for medical protocol for childbirth should 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:37.200 be present um at a childbirth. But there's also certain 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:46.320 things that medical professionals sometimes do that are perhaps violating patients. Yeah, 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:51.560 I have very complicated feelings about it. Is really complicated. 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.760 I don't like calling it rape because I don't know. 0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:01.080 Rape is a very specific thing. And I understand how 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.440 some of the trauma you know of of undergoing being 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.880 forced to undergo a medical procedure you don't uh want 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.400 to undergo UM or don't you know are are are 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.240 kind of not present enough mentally to like understand what's 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.440 happening to you because you're in this like really altered state. Uh, 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.960 Like I understand how that would be traumatic, UM, but 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:25.199 I I feel weird about saying that. Like if a 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:27.240 doctor does something you don't want because he's trying to 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:31.119 save your baby's life, um, that that's the same as rape. 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:34.120 That that's weird to me. I do, but like there's 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:36.479 a bunch of ship obviously that like yeah, doctors do 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.080 without the consent of the baby, like with intersex babies. 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:41.440 And also like you can make an argument about circumcision 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:44.400 where it's like that's not a medically necessary thing you're 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:46.520 doing and the child should maybe have some say and 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.920 what happens to its own body. Um So like yeah, 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:55.160 like this is like this whole issue. Like there, I 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:57.399 I want to kind of highlight that, like, while this 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.520 community we're talking about I think is fundamentally toxic, there 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.200 are some reasonable questions that like start that we're being 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:06.080 asked at the start of this, and I think this woman, 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:09.680 Jeanette Fraser, is going too far and kind of yeah, 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.000 we'll talk about her more in a bit, but I 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:14.840 don't think like there she's entirely and these other people 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:17.960 are entirely coming out of an unreasonable place. The health 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.639 care system and the child birthing system in this country 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:22.639 is fucked. And like the fact that women today are 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.960 likely to die in childbirth is as much evidence as 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:29.080 you need to know about that. Um, I wonder it's 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:32.240