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Speaker 1: Hello, America. This is Robert Evans. I am sitting in

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Speaker 1: a car on top of a mountain like a professional

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Speaker 1: person recording my podcast, which is this podcast Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: and we've had yet another, I mean, really bad introduction. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm I feel bad about this one. I actually

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Speaker 1: like that one. Oh you like that one, Sophie. That's yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well do you think that only people in America in

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Speaker 1: the US listen to Solid Points. If there's non Americans

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Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, what the hell are they doing?

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Speaker 1: Like this is they don't get our freedom, our freedom

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Speaker 1: of speech, that's ours and ours alone, Caitlin. The best

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Speaker 1: thing about freedom of speech is limiting it to a

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Speaker 1: small number of people. Yes, I don't agree, but I

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Speaker 1: see your point. Yeah, I firmly disagree with what just happened,

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Speaker 1: and I take back my praise of your introduction. Hello,

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Speaker 1: international listeners, we love you. Yeah. I bet they're from

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Speaker 1: all over the world. Yes, Canada, yes, Japan. Yes, Canada

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Speaker 1: is just Alaska's Mexico. Mexico and Canada are both much

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Speaker 1: better countries. Um, almost spit my soup on the mic.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it was a bad time to try

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Speaker 1: to eat soup. Sorry, I took a week in rural

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Speaker 1: America to to clear my head and get some writing done,

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Speaker 1: and it has made me insult our neighbors to the

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Speaker 1: north and south for no reason. You did that before?

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Speaker 1: Come on, I did, I did? I did. I love

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Speaker 1: insulting nations for no reason. Well, my guest today, as

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Speaker 1: as you just heard from, is Caitlin Duranti. Caitlin, how

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Speaker 1: are you doing today? I'm doing very well. I'm delighted

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Speaker 1: to be here now, Caitlin. You're the co host of

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel cast Um and you you have guessed it

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Speaker 1: on behind the bastards before. We had a long talk

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Speaker 1: about I think a man both of us consider a

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Speaker 1: dear friend now, Lafayette Ron Hubbard. Yes, yes, he just

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Speaker 1: he's coming to my birthday party soon. Oh good. You

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Speaker 1: know I think he's at all of our birthday parties,

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Speaker 1: convincing our small children to deliver letters for him on

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Speaker 1: his boat crusade to find gold in the ocean. Yes, god,

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Speaker 1: I miss him. Well, we're not talking about that today, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: And we're talking about the goat Testical doctor either, right, No,

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about the goat Testical got about her,

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Speaker 1: that fucker that guy. Yeah, like Alex Jones, but with

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Speaker 1: goat testicles. No, today we're talking about the free birthing community. Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: have you ever heard of the free birthing community. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I have, Robert. Oh boy, Caitlin. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you're you're gonna, You're gonna enjoy this. I mean, so,

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Speaker 1: I I got where to start. I I wrote a

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Speaker 1: little introduction here, and I don't think I'm gonna read it.

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Speaker 1: I think we're just gonna we're just gonna dig into it. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the nexus of my introduction was that back in the day,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's this one website that's kind of like

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Speaker 1: the Tower of Babbel for the Internet, that Something Awful Forums.

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Speaker 1: It's where four Chain came out of. It's where like

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Speaker 1: doxing was very first practiced. It's where a lot of

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Speaker 1: like meme culture originated from. UM and that those forums

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Speaker 1: had a motto, and that motto was the Internet makes

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Speaker 1: you stupid. And it was just at the time, because

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Speaker 1: it's like the late nineties, early two thousand's is when

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Speaker 1: like Something Awful was really at its most relevant. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it was, and it was and you were you

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Speaker 1: remember then Caitlin, when the Internet didn't really matter, when

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Speaker 1: like it was just sort of the silly thing, and

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Speaker 1: people like mainstream TV or news kind of made fun

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Speaker 1: of people who were on the Internet a lot, like

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Speaker 1: it wasn't taken very seriously, and so I think that's

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Speaker 1: what the motto kind of meant then, was just like

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Speaker 1: the Internet's dumb. But as the years have gone by

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Speaker 1: and the Internet has eaten the world, I've come to

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Speaker 1: believe in those words very literally. The Internet does actually

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Speaker 1: make people stupid um and I think to the free

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Speaker 1: birth in community in particular is a perfect example of

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Speaker 1: how this works, because, thanks to the wonders of the

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Speaker 1: modern Internet and most particularly Facebook, a bunch of otherwise

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Speaker 1: well meaning, functional human beings have left a trail of

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Speaker 1: dead babies in their wake, not because they wanted to

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Speaker 1: kill babies, but because the Internet broke their brains. And

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Speaker 1: that's the story we're going to tell today. Wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: sided this is a dead baby episode. Oh my okay,

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Speaker 1: wait okay. Initial question, preliminary question, do you know anything?

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything about the free birthing community, but

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling that there's got to be some

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Speaker 1: overlap between it, and just based on what I think

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Speaker 1: it is, based on the name alone, overlap between that

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Speaker 1: community and the anti vaxers. You absolutely, oh yeah, okay

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Speaker 1: for god, oh my god. Um yeah, it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty cool, Caitlin, and I want to welcome you, by

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Speaker 1: the way, into a really rarefied circle of of Bastard's

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Speaker 1: pod guests. Uh. Currently, Sophia Alexandria Billy Wayne Davis are

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Speaker 1: the only two members of the Dead Babies Episodes sub club,

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Speaker 1: So very can we get a couple of aircorns in

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Speaker 1: there for for the third member of our Dead Baby Triumvirate? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I just added so much. Are you wandered, Caitlin? I'm

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Speaker 1: so honored? And what what a group to be a

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Speaker 1: part of. I mean, the I and Sophia, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what what terrific people, so rarefied air verified air now, Caitlin. Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you, if you, or at least sorry not even you, Caitlin.

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Speaker 1: If you the listener at home have heard about the

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Speaker 1: free birthing community recently, it's probably because of a fabulous

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Speaker 1: NBC News article by Brandy's a Drowsney that dropped a

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Speaker 1: couple of days ago, and the article's title was I

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Speaker 1: brainwashed myself with the internet. Uh. It is the story

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Speaker 1: of a twenty eight year old woman on the West Coast,

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Speaker 1: pseudonymed Judith, who found yourself slowly drawn into a series

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Speaker 1: of online communities of women who believe that the best

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Speaker 1: way to give birth is with no medicine, no doctor,

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Speaker 1: and no midwife. So, you know, we're all aware that

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Speaker 1: there's like home birthing um sort of like communities and stuff.

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Speaker 1: These are people who are like that, but they're like,

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Speaker 1: but midwives are evil too. Oh wow, I don't want

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Speaker 1: anyone who knows that goddamn thing about medicine around for

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Speaker 1: my birth. Like that's the gist of these people, A right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So that's a fun thing that I hadn't realized existed

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Speaker 1: until I read this article. And the t l d

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Speaker 1: R of the story is that Judith left her baby

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Speaker 1: in her belly for way too long, more than forty

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Speaker 1: two weeks, because these people believe, among other things, that

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Speaker 1: having your labor induced, you know, medically is um is

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Speaker 1: on an awful thing to do and an unnecessary thing

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Speaker 1: to do. So she was pregnant almost three weeks past

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Speaker 1: the nine month mark and refused to go to the

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Speaker 1: hospital and her baby died inside of her um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the first time we've had a first dead

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Speaker 1: baby on page one. We're not even halfway through page one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I bring that out in people, you know, the dead,

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Speaker 1: the dead babies. I don't know what I meant by that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got wet. I just my presence encourages people to

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Speaker 1: talk about dead babies, as I think what I meant, Well,

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Speaker 1: that's good. Well we'll be talking about a number of

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Speaker 1: them today. So obviously, Judith's story was a traumatic, painful nightmare. UM.

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Speaker 1: And she's far from the only person that this kind

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Speaker 1: of nightmares happened to as a result of the free

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Speaker 1: birth in community. Uh. The NBC article itself links to

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Speaker 1: a November two, eighteen Daily Beast article by Emily Sugarman.

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Speaker 1: The article's title is she wanted a free birth at home,

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Speaker 1: when the baby died, the attacks began, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: the story of a woman named Lisa and her would

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Speaker 1: be daughter, Journey Moon. Uh. Lisa got drawn into the

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Speaker 1: free birth in community via like Facebook groups and podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and her baby died. Uh. And then she was harassed

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Speaker 1: by a bunch of people online who are angry that

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Speaker 1: she'd killed her baby who had been infiltrating these free

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Speaker 1: birth and communities. It's a mess of a story, and

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Speaker 1: the tales of these two women comprise about of the

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Speaker 1: public discourse around free birthing at the moment. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of very recently burst onto the scene. But there's so

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Speaker 1: much more here under the surface, uh, than is even

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Speaker 1: in both of these very well written articles, And today

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Speaker 1: I I felt like what I could do to add

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Speaker 1: to this is dig a little bit deeper into where

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Speaker 1: the free birth in community comes from and the individual

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna call himbastards who were aspond posible for starting

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Speaker 1: what is effectively a weird cult dedicated to getting people

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Speaker 1: to basically kill their babies by not having anyone who

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Speaker 1: knows anything about medicine around when they come out of people.

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Speaker 1: Cool fun story. Can't wait? You sound really motivated by

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Speaker 1: this to be a part of this fun tale. I

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Speaker 1: so am you. You have no idea, just I I

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Speaker 1: have no ability to like emote with my voice, but um,

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Speaker 1: I am very excited to learn about. Call that v moting. Okay, Yeah, Now,

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Speaker 1: free birthing obviously has its origins and the natural home

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Speaker 1: birth movement, and the term home birth started being used

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Speaker 1: in the mid eighteen hundreds as hospital births became more common.

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Speaker 1: At present, most so called developed nations, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: the term generally used. I don't like it, but it's

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Speaker 1: kind of hard to find. Counter terms sometimes have home

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Speaker 1: birthing rates of less than one percent um. It's broadly

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Speaker 1: accurate to say that the end of home birth thing

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Speaker 1: as a normal thing, you know, the end of that

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Speaker 1: being the way most babies were born has corresponded with

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Speaker 1: a massive reduction in the rate of both infant and

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Speaker 1: mother deaths in childbirth. So we stopped giving birth at home,

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Speaker 1: started giving birth in hospitals with doctors and a lot

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Speaker 1: less babies and moms die, right, pretty obvious. But here's

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Speaker 1: where it gets weird, because the situation isn't quite that simple.

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Speaker 1: The United States today has one of the highest infant

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Speaker 1: mortality rates in the Western world. Six of our infants

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Speaker 1: die for every thousand live births, which puts the US

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Speaker 1: on par with such healthcare powerhouses as Serbia and Malaysia.

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Speaker 1: Despite regular advances in technology, matters, matters are actually getting

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Speaker 1: a lot worse for American mothers at a startlingly rapid rate.

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Speaker 1: A pregnant woman in the US today is fifty more

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Speaker 1: likely to die in childbirth than her mother was. Yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: that's an enormous jump in mama and baby deaths. We

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Speaker 1: woul account for that? What accounts for that? Well, there's

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Speaker 1: there's a number of intersecting factors here. One of the

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Speaker 1: ones given regularly is eroding social support for women. Um

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Speaker 1: So as a result of this like crusade against birth

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Speaker 1: control and planned parenthood by the right in our country,

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Speaker 1: women's access to obstetric services in rural U S counties

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Speaker 1: has collapsed. UH. Nine percent of all rural American women

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Speaker 1: lost hospital obstetric services between two thousand and two thousand fourteen. UH.

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Speaker 1: The shocking expensive birth plays a major role in this.

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Speaker 1: Two people who just can't afford to to do it

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Speaker 1: in a hospital. So between the cost and the sheer

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Speaker 1: lack of access, the fact that growing communities of American

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Speaker 1: women have been turning to home birth is not weird

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Speaker 1: um and it's not necessarily harmful either. The Netherlands actually

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Speaker 1: has a really high rate of home births. In two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine, the largest study of its kind was conducted there,

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Speaker 1: analyzing more than five thousand births and finding no difference

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Speaker 1: in the birth or death rates of home births versus

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Speaker 1: hospital births. And you'll hear the studies cited a lot

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Speaker 1: by home birthing advocates, and they all tend to leave

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Speaker 1: out something critical, which is that the home birthing there's

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Speaker 1: in this Netherlands study, we're all women who were determined

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Speaker 1: by a doctor beforehand to have low risk pregnancies. So

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Speaker 1: if you have a competent midwife and if a doctor

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Speaker 1: is consulted first to make sure you're a low risk pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: home birthing can be perfectly safe. That's the one thing

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Speaker 1: I want to get out of the way first. But

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Speaker 1: our free birthing friends who are going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about today, they don't use midwives and they for sure

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Speaker 1: as ship don't consult doctors um. And most of the

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Speaker 1: Facebook groups with these people gather explicitly list advising another

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Speaker 1: person to seek medical attention as a bannable offense. So

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Speaker 1: they'll say, like, if you advise anyone to go to

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Speaker 1: a doctor to induce pregnancy to like talk to an O, B. G.

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Speaker 1: Y in or whatever, um like, we'll kick you out

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Speaker 1: of the group because this is not about that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so they these are the people I feel like, these

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Speaker 1: are the people who, like if they were uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: convicted of a time, or they had to go to

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Speaker 1: court or something, they'd be like, I'm going to represent myself,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't need a lawyer, I'm on my own. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's that phrase, like a person who defends themselves in

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Speaker 1: court has a fool for a lawyer. I guess a

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Speaker 1: person who delivers their own baby as a fool for obstetrician. Yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So the first Facebook page that comes up now when

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Speaker 1: you google free birth Facebook group currently hosts an image

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Speaker 1: meme that says we are all descendants of someone who

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Speaker 1: birthed at home without a licensed midwife. Um, and that

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Speaker 1: is true, But you could just as easily say we're

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Speaker 1: all descendants of someone who died at home giving birth

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Speaker 1: without any sort of medical assistance, because that's equally true. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we all have a gramma here who got through a

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Speaker 1: couple of babies and then couldn't make it past fifth

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Speaker 1: or sixth or whatever. Right, Yeah, this is gonna be

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Speaker 1: a fun one. That just made me think, like, who, like,

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Speaker 1: did I have like a great great great great grandmother

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Speaker 1: who like died during childbirth, but like their baby survived,

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Speaker 1: and like I'm the descendant of Yeah, that's got to

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Speaker 1: be true for us. Of us, there's no one who's

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Speaker 1: somewhere in their family line doesn't have multiple people who

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Speaker 1: died during childbirth. Like that's that's just a guarantee, just

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Speaker 1: because of the way the world biology and ship worked

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Speaker 1: and works. So when we're when we're trying to unravel

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Speaker 1: the mystery of how this deadly freebirth and community came to,

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Speaker 1: because I wanted to kind of trace it back to

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Speaker 1: its origins. And my first question when I started doing

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Speaker 1: that was when did this whole movement split off from

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Speaker 1: just the home birthing movement? And as best as I

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Speaker 1: can tell, a lot of it traces back to the

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Speaker 1: story of one woman named Catherine's Skull now MS. Skull

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Speaker 1: was a former Chicago police officer, and she was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with her fifth child um back in two thousand eight.

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Speaker 1: She was admitted to Rush University Medical Center and received

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Speaker 1: an unpleasant surprise. Her normal obstetrician was out of town

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Speaker 1: on vacation, so instead of the doctor she was comfortable with,

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Speaker 1: she was attended to by a stranger and a stranger

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Speaker 1: who happened to be a really big asshole according to MS. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he sucks. This guy's Dr Scott Pierce is his name,

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Speaker 1: and he apparently started their interaction by yelling at her

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Speaker 1: for not coming in earlier and not calling before coming in.

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Speaker 1: He informed her that because she had not given them

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Speaker 1: enough warning, there was no time for him to give

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Speaker 1: her pain medication. Then he told her that she deserved

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Speaker 1: to be in pain for not giving the hospital more

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Speaker 1: lead time, saying sometimes pain is the best teacher. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's like, not not a great doctor. Um. He next

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Speaker 1: gave her an extremely rough vaginal exam that, like she

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Speaker 1: described as unnecessarily rough and painful while she was in

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Speaker 1: mid contraction um, and then he ordered her to begin

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Speaker 1: pushing before she was fully dilated. He told her repeatedly

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Speaker 1: that her baby might die, and had a loud phone

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Speaker 1: conversation in the next room about abortion, telling another one

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Speaker 1: of his patients that stupid woman, she has no business

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Speaker 1: being pregnant. So pretty bad story. Yeah, yeah, not how

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Speaker 1: you want a pregnancy to go. Um. And Catherine Scholl

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Speaker 1: is not the bastard here. She filed a civil suit

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Speaker 1: against Dr Pierce. Uh. He was eventually fined five hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars and sentenced to one year of medical probation, which

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Speaker 1: seems like a reasonably fair punishment for his crime. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would well find only five and I think the

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Speaker 1: fine could have been higher. The fine should have been higher.

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Speaker 1: But like, yeah, he was definitely like when a medical

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Speaker 1: board looked into it, they found out that like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this guy's behavior was completely unacceptable and the story of

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Speaker 1: so like Catherine School did nothing wrong. Um, she was

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Speaker 1: abused by a doctor, she filed a suit against him,

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Speaker 1: and he was punished. You know, we could argue the

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Speaker 1: punishment should have been more, but her part of the story,

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Speaker 1: she acted perfectly reasonably. But the story of Catherine's School

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Speaker 1: took off like wild fire among the networks of mommy

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Speaker 1: blogs dedicated to the natural birthing movement UM, and without

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Speaker 1: knowing it, school became a rallying point for other women

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Speaker 1: who had bad experiences with their doctors during childbirth. School

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Speaker 1: story helped to galvanize a community of birthing extremists who

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Speaker 1: had started organizing online, and one of the very first

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Speaker 1: and perhaps the founder of the free birthing movement was

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Speaker 1: an Australian woman named Jeannette Frasier. Jeanette founded the website

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Speaker 1: Joyous Birth in two thousand seven. In December of that year,

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Speaker 1: she coined the term birth rape in a blog entry

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Speaker 1: to refer to what she thought people like Dr Pierce

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Speaker 1: were doing to their patients. Birth rape. Yeah. Um so

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Speaker 1: here's here's kind of her explaining what that means. I

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Speaker 1: don't care if you don't like the word or the idea.

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Speaker 1: It's real, So get used to it. Survivors are angry

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Speaker 1: and we're starting to talk about it. Remember that old

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Speaker 1: anti violent slogan, Well, it means even in hospitals and

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Speaker 1: even in stupid hospital gowns, when I say no, it

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Speaker 1: means no. When you shove your arm and a woman

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Speaker 1: who's screaming no, that's rape. When you rupture those membranes

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Speaker 1: because you have to tick the box that comply with protocol,

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Speaker 1: even when the woman screams no, that's rape. When you

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Speaker 1: slash a woman's vagina with scissors and she's screaming no,

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Speaker 1: that's rape. And on the streets that would earn you

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Speaker 1: a jail sentence. Your green gown is not protection. Do

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Speaker 1: that to me and I will charge you. Don't forget it.

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Speaker 1: We are angry, and we are powerful. We have survived

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Speaker 1: your raping protocols, so we can survive anything. Be afraid,

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Speaker 1: and don't underestimate us. And I'm curious kind of for

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Speaker 1: your thoughts on that. I'll tell you sort of where

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Speaker 1: eye land on this, which is that I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of things that happen to women who

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Speaker 1: are giving birth that they may say no about. Because

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Speaker 1: once you're giving birth to a baby, the doctor is

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Speaker 1: going to like legally has to do whatever he can

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Speaker 1: or she can do to make sure that baby comes

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Speaker 1: out alive. And you might not in the moment want that,

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Speaker 1: but you're in a hospital and that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: way hospitals go. And I'm I'm personally like, obviously I'm

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Speaker 1: very pro choice, but at the point in which that

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Speaker 1: baby is coming out, like the doctor is equally beholden

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Speaker 1: to the baby and to the mother. Um, that's kind

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Speaker 1: of how I think, Yeah, I'm interested in Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean the child. Like that's that does like complicate matters because, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, you have you know, I

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Speaker 1: kind of see what she's saying, um in this in

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Speaker 1: this definition of this term um of you know, doctors

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Speaker 1: like you know, doing things that could be considered rape

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Speaker 1: or assault. Um. And like you know, the women are

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Speaker 1: you know, the people who are giving birth not giving consent,

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Speaker 1: but you know the doctor is doing something that they

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Speaker 1: deem medically necessary for you know, the safety of the

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Speaker 1: baby perhaps. So that is a very complicated thing. UM. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I okay, well let's let's do this. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if if you know this, Robert or um,

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Speaker 1: if any listeners are aware of a podcast that I've

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Speaker 1: been working on called Sludge An American health Care Story

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Speaker 1: so um, and this is all about a recent experience

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Speaker 1: I had with the um American health care system. Spoiler

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Speaker 1: shit it's it was ship. So I. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that every you know, healthcare experience of every person

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Speaker 1: in the US is shitty. It's not if you have

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Speaker 1: a million dollars or more so. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: this is all to say that I have hearing people's

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Speaker 1: stories because I've started to interview other people with their

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Speaker 1: sort of medical nightmare stories, and I'm learning all these

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Speaker 1: different things about how certain like medical protocol is not

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Speaker 1: very good. Um. One specific example I will site is

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Speaker 1: the way that the medical community treats like intersects baby

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Speaker 1: these um, which is horrible, and they perform procedures and

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Speaker 1: surgeries that the babies can't consent to um and that

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Speaker 1: the parents often don't know enough about the situation, you know,

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Speaker 1: just all these things. So on one hand, like, yes, uh,

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Speaker 1: they're like having people who know about childbirth and who

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Speaker 1: know about um protocol for medical protocol for childbirth should

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Speaker 1: be present um at a childbirth. But there's also certain

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Speaker 1: things that medical professionals sometimes do that are perhaps violating patients. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have very complicated feelings about it. Is really complicated.

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Speaker 1: I don't like calling it rape because I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Rape is a very specific thing. And I understand how

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Speaker 1: some of the trauma you know of of undergoing being

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Speaker 1: forced to undergo a medical procedure you don't uh want

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Speaker 1: to undergo UM or don't you know are are are

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Speaker 1: kind of not present enough mentally to like understand what's

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Speaker 1: happening to you because you're in this like really altered state. Uh,

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Speaker 1: Like I understand how that would be traumatic, UM, but

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Speaker 1: I I feel weird about saying that. Like if a

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Speaker 1: doctor does something you don't want because he's trying to

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Speaker 1: save your baby's life, um, that that's the same as rape.

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Speaker 1: That that's weird to me. I do, but like there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of ship obviously that like yeah, doctors do

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Speaker 1: without the consent of the baby, like with intersex babies.

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Speaker 1: And also like you can make an argument about circumcision

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Speaker 1: where it's like that's not a medically necessary thing you're

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Speaker 1: doing and the child should maybe have some say and

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Speaker 1: what happens to its own body. Um So like yeah,

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Speaker 1: like this is like this whole issue. Like there, I

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Speaker 1: I want to kind of highlight that, like, while this

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Speaker 1: community we're talking about I think is fundamentally toxic, there

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Speaker 1: are some reasonable questions that like start that we're being

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Speaker 1: asked at the start of this, and I think this woman,

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Speaker 1: Jeanette Fraser, is going too far and kind of yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about her more in a bit, but I

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Speaker 1: don't think like there she's entirely and these other people

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Speaker 1: are entirely coming out of an unreasonable place. The health

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Speaker 1: care system and the child birthing system in this country

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Speaker 1: is fucked. And like the fact that women today are

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Speaker 1: likely to die in childbirth is as much evidence as

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Speaker 1: you need to know about that. Um, I wonder it's

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Speaker 1: really messy. I wonder if she just came up with

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Speaker 1: that term birth rape because it sounds sort of like

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Speaker 1: birth rate. And she's like, won't this be a catchy

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Speaker 1: phrase or something I don't like? Um, I think you

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Speaker 1: know what? That might be the case. We'll we'll see

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Speaker 1: if you how you think about that? When we finished

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Speaker 1: talking about Jeanette Fraser. But Robert, do you want to

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Speaker 1: know what else is a really catchy phrase? Oh? I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say, do you want to know what? Won't

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Speaker 1: perform medical procedures on your child? Gina tell you without

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Speaker 1: their consent? Oh, I think that's our our our our

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Speaker 1: sponsors who offer that. That is the only guarantee we

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Speaker 1: make about our sponsors, Mike Bloomberg and the Raytheon Corporation.

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Speaker 1: They will not order surgery on your children. I can't

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Speaker 1: vouch for Mike Bloomberg on that. No, he will. He

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Speaker 1: will absolutely order. Yeah. No, why we shouldn't have en

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Speaker 1: Raytheon will as well. Um, so enjoy these words from

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Speaker 1: our sponsors, who may, in fact order your children to

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Speaker 1: undergo medical procedures that are not strictly necessary. Adds We're back. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about this woman Jeanette Fraser who coins

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Speaker 1: the term birth rape um, and she has this website

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Speaker 1: Joyous Birth and Joyous Birth advocated for legal reform around pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: and the core ideology on display there is the same

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Speaker 1: core ideology that we saw creep up later in the

425
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: free birth in community UM, and the basic idea is

426
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: that women should be the absolute arbiters of what happens

427
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: during their pregnancy, which, like, there's aspects of that that

428
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: sound reasonable, but like, obviously I do think there is

429
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: a certain point where we're like, no, you you've got

430
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: too human beings here now, and like you don't get

431
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: to make every I don't know. I have a lot

432
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: of issues in general with the amount of control parents

433
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: have over what happens to their kids bodies. That worries me. Yeah, um,

434
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: so yeah, this is a really messy and complicated thing, um.

435
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,959
Speaker 1: But Joyous Birth it was very clearly from the beginning

436
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: focused around the desire to like not have any medical

437
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: procedures performed on your children, to do it all naturally

438
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: or holistically, with like whatever remedies you could whip up

439
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: in your kitchen. It had a forum with a few

440
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: dozen members, and that forum had threads with titles like

441
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: strep question mark, question mark? Can this be treated without antibiotics?

442
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 1: Another ear infection? Dot? Dot dot? What can I do

443
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: to avoid the antibiotics? So not only so once they're

444
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: children have been birth, assuming they survive, there's there against

445
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: all medical Yeah that's really the kid's life. Okay, Yeah,

446
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about how can I avoid

447
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: antibiotics for my children with bacterial infections? Uh. One of

448
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: the threads from Mummy Juice just says blood and pooh

449
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: question mark, which I'm sure it does not end with

450
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: a happy story. So uh, not a great community. We

451
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: can agree there's some problems with the way uh childbirthing

452
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: is handled by the medical establishment. But like, yeah, if

453
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: you're typing out, my kid keeps getting ear infections, why

454
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: how can I deal with this without treating it with medicine? Like, baby,

455
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: you're doing a bad job. I don't know. Just give

456
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: that kid some some goat testicles, secure all as we learned,

457
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: or audit the child, give me lead out you know. Yeah,

458
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 1: so I it's it's it's pretty cool. Um. Now, I'm

459
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: not exactly sure when all these women started using the

460
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: term free birth to describe what they were advocating, but

461
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: by March of two thousand nine that change had happened.

462
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: Um And the first time I run across the word

463
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: free birthing to refer this community is when Jeanette Fraser

464
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: was interviewed by a website called The Age. Uh and

465
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from that interview. This is right before

466
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: she was supposed to give birth to her fifth child.

467
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: Janette Frasier is in labor. Her plan is to drop

468
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: the baby on the lounge room floor or wherever feels

469
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: good at the time. Has she called the hospital to

470
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: let them know what's happening. When you go on a

471
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: skiing trip, do you call the hospital to say, I'm

472
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: coming down the mountain? Can you set aside a spot

473
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: for me in the emergency room? I don't think so,

474
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: says Fraser, who's breathing sounds strained. Amazing logic. Yeah, I mean,

475
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: they generally do have medical professionals at ski lodges and

476
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: stuff because of the dangers of skiing. But yeah, this

477
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: is pretty much where we're in the conversation that started

478
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: with me calling Frasier and asking if it was true

479
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: that her organization, Joyous Birth, was advocating that women go

480
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: it alone, giving birth at home with no midwife or

481
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: general practitioner or bags of resuscitation gadgets. Free birthing. Plenty

482
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: of women do it, she says. In fact, Fraser is

483
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: doing it right now. I prefer to be an autonomous

484
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: care provider, she says, So that's kind of the terminology

485
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: used here. Yeah, I mean, okay, so I'm obviously all

486
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: for like giving women agency over their bodies, right, Like

487
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: that's important and it absolutely so it feels like this

488
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: community they like started with that, but then have taken

489
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: it far too far to the I mean, and I'm

490
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: sure you're going to get into this soon, but like

491
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: all I mean if we prefaced it the dead babies, Um, yeah,

492
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: so like obviously the results aren't often good, it seems

493
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: with this, uh, with free birthing, but like, oh, it's

494
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: just it's so annoying that they're like doing this under

495
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: the guys of like, yes, women's autonomy and agency and

496
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: look how important it is, because that is important, but

497
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: then they've like bastardized it into this like disgusting killing

498
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: baby enterprise. Like yeah, it's and it's it is frustrating

499
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: to me that they're kind of co opting a lot

500
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: of the language of the pro choice movement because it

501
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: was like, when that baby is, you know, a clump

502
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: of cells, when it's it's not capable of living independently

503
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form. I I think it

504
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: would be horrible to give anyone but the mother control

505
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: over her own body. But the point of that thing's

506
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: been in there nine months and it's coming out and

507
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: it can survive on its own, Like this is no

508
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: longer just you here. There's an independent, living human being

509
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: that also has rights. Um. Yeah, And it is kind

510
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: of messy drawing that line, but certainly at the point

511
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: at which your forty one weeks pregnant, um, I think, Yeah,

512
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, especially just because like there, I mean,

513
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about childbirth. Uh, nor will I

514
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: because I don't intend to have children ever. But like

515
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: there are so many people who do intend to have children.

516
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: Who's still like, there's there's only unless you're trained as

517
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: a midwife or a medical professional. It seems like a

518
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: really dangerous thing to go at it. Yeah, And it's

519
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: like these are people who are kind of like refusing

520
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: for there to be any kind of like reasonable middle

521
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: path here because you know, the evidence does show that, like,

522
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: if you're checked out by a doctor war hand and

523
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: you have a midwife, home birthing can be a totally

524
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: safe process. But they're like, no, funk that midwife thing

525
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: and fuck checking with a doctor. That's all a violation

526
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: of my rights. Um, which is dumb. I think. I

527
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: think it's a dumb way to do things. It's not good. Yeah,

528
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: So Jeanette is probably the clearest case for the founder

529
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: of the free birthing movement and her baby, who she

530
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: was pregnant with when that article was written. Roisen was

531
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 1: born five days after the article dropped. Janette delivered him

532
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: without assistance in her home, and Roisen was born alive

533
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: but not breathing. His heart was not beating properly. He

534
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: was not stillborn, but he did come out in immediate

535
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: need of expert resuscitation, and unfortunately no expert was available.

536
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: And all Janets are Nica creams and herbal childbirthing remedies

537
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: were useless in the face of this cold reality. Yeah,

538
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from the coroner's report about her her

539
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: dead baby. Quote. Essentially, miss Fraser was quite unprepared for

540
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: what happened. There was not even a hard flat surface

541
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: available on which Royson could be placed for resuscitation. So

542
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: these three amateurs, Miss Fraser, Mr. Stokes and Miss Deuce

543
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: first placed the child on the rim of the inflatable pool,

544
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: and when that proved unsatisfactory, used a chair. They were

545
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: unable to abandon the chair and place Royson on the

546
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: floor in order to effectively administer CPR, because the placenta

547
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: not having been delivered, that was as far as she

548
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: would reach. Evidently, it appeared to nobody present to clamp

549
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: and cut the cord, and anyway, Miss Deuce told the

550
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: inquest she had not been aware of the ready availability

551
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: of any equipment to enable her to do so. According

552
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: to Missduce, further difficulties were encountered in administering CPR because

553
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: Royson was slippery and difficult to hold, and evidently it

554
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: did not occur to anybody to wrap her in a towel,

555
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: though there were towels nearby. Yeah, yeah, it's sucked up. Wow.

556
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, and it came like this, I mean, this

557
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: is like straight up negligence right where like that I

558
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: would I would say, so the baby died and the

559
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 1: mom was responsible, Like is she a murderer. Now like

560
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: does she face No, she legally know and in most

561
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: parts of the world she will not legally face consequences

562
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 1: for this. Um. You know, it's kind of thing we're

563
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: only just now within a pretty recent period of time

564
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: where like parents would get start to get in trouble

565
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: in some places for like refusing to give their kids

566
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: necessary blood transfusions because of a religious belief, Like you

567
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: can still get away with that actually in a number

568
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: of places. Um, So this is this is not a

569
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: thing where like the women who do this are generally

570
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: prosecuted at all. Um. Although, yeah, I would agree with you,

571
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: this seems like negligence of maybe a criminal nature. Yeah,

572
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: it's like manslaughter. Maybe I don't like some baby slaughter.

573
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: Baby it's a horrible phrase. So that's Jeanette Fraser, one

574
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: of the founders of the Free Birthing movement, and the

575
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: other woman usually given as a founder for the free

576
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: birthing movement is Laura Shanley. She was interviewed in December

577
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: of two thousand eight, the same month Catherine's Skull filed

578
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: charges against her doctor, uh and she was interviewed for

579
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: an ABC News article titled Mothers to Be saying no

580
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: to modern medicine. Now, that article does not use the

581
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: term free birthing, which is part of why I think

582
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: Jeanette Fraser probably gets the credit for that, but it

583
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: does mention a dead baby, Laura Shanley's dead baby. To

584
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: be precise, Shanley had successfully delivered her first four children

585
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: at home. She delivered the fifth two, but he had

586
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: a rare heart deformity and he died. Shanley claims that

587
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: said nothing at all to do with the fact that

588
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: she chose to give birth without any expert medical care present. Quote.

589
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: If you have a baby that's born at home, and

590
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: especially in an unassisted birth, regardless of the fact that

591
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: the coroner said this baby would not have survived, you know,

592
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: there are still people that will blame me for my

593
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: baby's death, Shanley said, And that's just something I have

594
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: to accept now. I'm not competent to diagnose whether Shanley's

595
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: child would have died if he'd been born in a hospital.

596
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: But someone who is competent is Dr Amy Tutor, an

597
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: obstite Ristian gynecologist who runs a blog called The Skeptical

598
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: oh B and focus is mainly on busting misinformation about pregnancy.

599
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: She has a special hatred for free birthing and notes

600
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: of Miss Shanley's pregnancy she made no attempt to stop

601
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: the premature birth of a son and watched him die

602
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: in the bathtub. So yeah, two founders of the movement

603
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: to dead babies. That's where we're starting here. Okay, cool stuff, huh,

604
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: really really cool stuff. Caitlin is looking at me like, Sophie,

605
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: why did you bring me here? How you feeling, Kitlin? Um?

606
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: You know, I am really just frustrated by the willful

607
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: negligence of this this movement. I'll buy your supe plantation

608
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: next time we get dinner. Thank you so much? Are

609
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: we are five pages in Caitlin, and we have four

610
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: dead babies, so we are almost one dead baby per

611
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: page to this. Wow? Yeah, what cool? What a rate?

612
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: What a rate? So Shanley and Fraser were the two earliest,

613
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: loudest voices and the splinter of the home birthing movement

614
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: that turned into free birthing. Uh. They both lad large

615
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: online communities that increasingly pushed their members away from trusting

616
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: actual medical professionals for anything. Dr Tutur blames them for

617
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: a lot of this, and she considers their activism to

618
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: be the result of extreme emotional immaturity, and she wrote

619
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 1: on her blog quote free Birthers are monstrously egotistical, reflexively

620
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: defiant of authority, unwilling to admit mistakes and capable of

621
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: accepting responsibility for their own actions, and entirely devoid of

622
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: any empathy for their suffering babies. Yeah, says sums up

623
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 1: for me that I wonder if they're all just like narcissy, like, yeah,

624
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: narcissis yeah, Like, um, I don't need a doctor. I'm

625
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 1: a genius and I can handle this on my own.

626
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: I don't think all of the women who get sucked

627
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: into it are I think most of them are probably

628
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: pretty normal people who are kind of maybe more inclined

629
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: to like sort of hippie dippy stuff and liked like

630
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: off the grid, a lot of like off the grids,

631
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, back to nature, almost survivalist

632
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: kind of women get really into this because they're attracted

633
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: to the idea of self sufficiency. But I do think

634
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: the people at the head of this movement, the women

635
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: who are sort of like driving it, I think there

636
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: is a lot of narcissism, um and you can see

637
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: that in the things that they say. Um uh. For example,

638
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: in the wake of her baby's death, Janet Frasier made

639
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: this defiant statement, my birth rape with my first child

640
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: is traumatic. My still birth was not. Mm hmm yeah.

641
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: Um that just sounds like a lie to justify what

642
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: she's doing. And also like, regardless of what happened with

643
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: your first child, that baby is alive, it gets yeah,

644
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: your other baby is not, and yeah, note the difference,

645
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, yeah. So another story that a doctor

646
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: to tour sites of like kind of narcissism at the

647
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: heart of a lot of these free birthing people is

648
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: the case of a woman named Paula p A A

649
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: l A. Her infant son was born extremely early, weighing

650
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: only one pound six ounces. He had to spend four

651
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: months in the n I See You and only survived

652
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: due to intense medical intervention. Paula was forced to give

653
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: birth in the hospital because something was very clearly wrong

654
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 1: with her pregnancy, but she still insisted on giving birth

655
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: as close to alone as she possibly could. And I'm

656
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: just going to read what she wrote on her Facebook

657
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: page for a community of other free birthers because it's

658
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: it's fucking wild. I took out my ivy lines. Nothing

659
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: was being pumped into them at that point anyway, and

660
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: my hospital bracelet. I wanted to take a shower with

661
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: both arms free of junk. I figured they could put

662
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: that crap back on me if it was an emergency,

663
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 1: but I needed to feel like myself again. Did dimension

664
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: They tracked and measured everything that came out of my body.

665
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: Shortly thereafter, she was an actively her with the premature baby.

666
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: She retreated to the hospital bathroom to decide what to do.

667
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: Option one, she wrote, called the nurses and either be

668
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: prodded while berthing right there, or be wheeled in for

669
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: an emergency C section. Option to wake my husband and

670
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: labor with him secretly, but then I know he'd lose

671
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: his cool and call for help. Option three labor by

672
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: myself with my baby just us, and I'd birth him

673
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: and catch him and then call for help. Obviously, I

674
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: went for option three. It seemed like the safest thing

675
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: for my baby and myself At the time. The studies

676
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: I'd read didn't report benefits for a C section for

677
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: babies of his age. That vaginal would have been safer,

678
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: and I knew he'd get drugged up and controlled by strangers,

679
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: was going to make things dangerous for me. After a

680
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: couple of painful contractions by the toilet, I laid out

681
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: a couple of Chuck's padge to catch the blood and crap,

682
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: I wish there was coming. Yeah. So, and she she

683
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: writes like this about like how good it is and

684
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: how important what she's doing is for the safety of

685
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: her baby, um, and ignores the fact that her baby

686
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: only surve life, being born four months prematurely because of

687
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: intense medical intervention, because of doctors and nurses working incredibly

688
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: hard with advanced equipment to keep the baby alive. Um.

689
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: She makes it all into a story about how cool

690
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 1: it is that she gave birth hiding alone in a

691
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: bathroom without telling any of the medical professionals around her. Yeah.

692
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:25,959
Speaker 1: So that's also this movement seems, among many things, like

693
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: a disdain for science. Like they're just like science is,

694
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: um not cool? But you know when you feel my

695
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: baby potentially like the fact that I'm in control and

696
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: not some doctor, right not, I mean, it's it's the

697
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: like I said, it's the anti vaxer thing, right, It's

698
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: just like, um, how could this possibly help even though

699
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: this like that. It's just yeah, the the ignoring, the

700
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 1: the science, the fact expind it all. Wowika, Yeah, it's

701
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: pretty cool, Caitlin, it's pretty cool. I love it. Yeah

702
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: so um. Paula gave herself enormous credit for cheating the

703
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: system and giving birth unassisted while ignoring the hard work

704
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: of professionals. Her defiant interpretation of a situation she probably

705
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: made worse was interpreted as a story of self reliance

706
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: by her fellow free birthers instead of a cautionary tale.

707
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: It reinforced dangerous ideas in the heads of dozens of women.

708
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: In the years since Jeanette Fraser's baby died, the free

709
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: birthing movement has grown like the old right, like the

710
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: bleached drinking cult, like Q and on, and like dozens

711
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: of other toxic subcultures in the fertile substrate provided by Facebook.

712
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: Like every subculture, it developed its own media ecosystem, with

713
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: its own popular podcasts and news websites and influencers, all

714
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: of whom prey upon the ever growing market of hippie,

715
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 1: dippy new mothers to be who don't trust Western medicine.

716
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: And that's how Judith, the subject of that viral NBC

717
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 1: article found out about free birthing. I'm going to quote

718
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: from that article. Now. Judith worked at a flower shop.

719
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: The daily drive was an hour outside of town, time

720
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: she filled by listening to podcasts. When she got pregnant,

721
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: she devoured episodes of The Birth Hour and Indie Birth,

722
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: popular programs on which women shared their childbirth stories, which

723
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: ranged from hospital to home births. But it was the

724
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: Free Birth podcast that really spoke to Judith. Build as

725
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and

726
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. The podcast features Emily

727
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: Saldia thirty five, a Los Angeles freebirth advocate and founder

728
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: of the Freebirth Society. The group has forty six thousand

729
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: followers on Instagram and it's podcast hit a million downloads

730
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: last month. Yeah, that's too many. My podcast doesn't even

731
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: get that much. And it's amazing, not horrible downloads. A

732
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: million downloads in a year. Okay, well, yeah that too

733
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: many downloads to Instagram followers, that's thousands of women potentially

734
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: endangering their babies. Um, which is God not great, not ideal. Robert,

735
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: do you want to know what will not endanger I don't.

736
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: I can't even vouch for this because we are because

737
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: we're absolutely supported by Mike Bloomberg. Actually, Sophie, I'm glad

738
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 1: you brought that up because I have this new ad

739
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: copy from Mike Bloomberg. So I'm just gonna read that

740
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: right now. Vote from Mike in he will endanger your babies.

741
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 1: That's the Mike Bloomberg promise. He absolutely promises to endanger

742
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: everyone's baby if elected president, and it is in fact,

743
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: the only promise he's willing to make. So, you know,

744
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: a bold stance by Mike Bloomberg. You gotta respect it. Yeah,

745
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: you heard it here, folks. That is an official Bloomberg

746
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: campaign ad. Mike Bloomberg will endanger your babies. Nod A required,

747
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: No India required. He'll do that for free. All right,

748
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: here's some other ads. We're back. So we're talking about

749
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: this kind of network of free birthing media circles, primarily podcasts,

750
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: and this is part of you know, Caitlin, Podcasting has

751
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: been good to both of us. Um I make u

752
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: my living at it, and I enjoy it, and I

753
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 1: think I enjoy other people's podcasts that they make, including

754
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 1: the Bechtel Cast. Your podcast. I worry a lot about

755
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: podcasts though, UM, and this is we're getting a little

756
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,959
Speaker 1: off topic. But like if you read mine comp which

757
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: everybody ought to UM, one of the points Adolf Hitler

758
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 1: makes is that like the written word, essentially newspapers and

759
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: books by philosolity, that none of that ship convinces large

760
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: amounts of people of anything. The human voice is what

761
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: can can change people's minds and huge numbers and shift

762
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: the destinies of nations. Like that's what is the right

763
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,959
Speaker 1: voice at the right time, UM. Saying the right things

764
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: can be hypnotizing to large numbers of people, and I

765
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: think that's what happens to UM. To this young woman, Judith,

766
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: she's she's spending two three hours a day in the car,

767
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: she lives out in the sticks. She's listening to the

768
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: podcast to help pass the time. And these women on

769
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 1: this free birthing podcast, in the way that podcasting hosts

770
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: become to us, becomes sort of like surrogate friends, and

771
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: she trust them. And obviously she trusts these women on

772
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: this podcast more than she trusts some doctors. She's going

773
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: to meet a couple of times, UM, and it's probably

774
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: going to be very short on time and like that.

775
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: This is one of the things that scares me about podcasts. Um, yeah, yeah,

776
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: I I hadn't even fully I tell you rather, Yeah,

777
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: I hadn't fully appreciated the power of the voice, the

778
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: human voice, and how influential it can be. That is scary, Okay,

779
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: I will Yeah, I think on this a bit. I mean,

780
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: on the lighthearted an event, we can tell people to

781
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: buy bolt cutters and and and the like to to

782
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: break into the mansions of the wealthy when society collapses.

783
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: But like on the dark side of it, all this

784
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: stuff happens too, so it's really a mixed bag podcasting. Thanks. Well,

785
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: didn't we learn about this with Dr John Brinkley? Was

786
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 1: that his name? Who like we found that whole radio

787
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: thing and was just hawking his his uh fake medicine. Yeah,

788
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: there's many people over the rail knew about this. Is

789
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: that back in the day, you know, Brinkley was only

790
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 1: able to do that because he had a huge amount

791
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: of money from his goatball business to establish a radio

792
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: station with. Now anybody can do this. Anybody with any

793
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: really fucking dumb idea can build a whole community dedicated

794
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: to that dumb idea. For whom that dumb idea will

795
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: become more important than anything else, even the lives of

796
00:46:50,560 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: their children. So the podcasts and supporting art industry. Oh,

797
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: it's good stuff. It's real good stuff. Everything's a nightmare.

798
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: So on the Free Birthing Podcast, Emily Saldia hosted the

799
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: most positive stories of free births. Judith was particularly taken

800
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: by the tale of one woman who gave birth out

801
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: in an unpowered yurt in the mountains of California, with

802
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: quote only her husband and a dog she called her midwolf.

803
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: Oh no, do not obstetricians. They're wonderful animals, but they

804
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: cannot help in a birthing. No. That also just ruined

805
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: puns for the rest of my life. I know, and

806
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: to this day, I know, to this day the woman

807
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: who decided to call her dog her mid wolf. That's

808
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: the thing she's proud of. Stuff is that bit of

809
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: word play. And I hate it Wolf. I can't get over.

810
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: I'm looking in and is shaking her head, going this

811
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: is not right, but this is this is like an

812
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: aspect of this stories. Like a lot of these women

813
00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: are like off the grid women, women who live on

814
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: arms and stuff, who are actually like probably really competent

815
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways because it's hard to live

816
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 1: that way. I have lived that way, and it's incredibly

817
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: difficult and it requires an amount of fortitude. And that's

818
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: probably why women like Judith are able to go weeks

819
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: past their due date and like the horrible pain that

820
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: that involves, because they're tough people. Um and I there's

821
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: an extent to it, like I, I fucking hate hospitals,

822
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: um and I avoid them at all goddamn costs. I

823
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: like living out in the middle of nowhere. Uh. And

824
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: I like not relying on anyone for you know things

825
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: of of of my daily necessities. I enjoy that. I

826
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: understand those impulses. But when you're bringing a baby into

827
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: the world, your personal level of comfort with you know,

828
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: all that matters less than the child's survival. It just does.

829
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: That's part of being a parent, right, is that, like

830
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: you put the child first. That's why I don't have

831
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: a kid. That's why we've been able to perpetuate the species. Yeah,

832
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: caring for the I know, I put Robert over myself.

833
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: I pick Robert over myself all the time because he

834
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: used my son. But I know, I know, and uh,

835
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: that's why you've got three bullets in your shoulder. I know.

836
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you jumping in between me and that

837
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: California Highway Patrol officer. But that's a story for another

838
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: day and another podcast. Um. So, Judith becomes obsessed with

839
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 1: these stories of you know, these women having free births

840
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: in these like amazing and exotic locales in the woods

841
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 1: on top of mountains in foreign countries. Um and she

842
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: she like like loves this stuff and listens to it

843
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 1: every day and and recalled later to NBC, I became obsessed.

844
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: I would just wonder what's my story going to be like?

845
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: And think I want my story to be as badass

846
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: as their stories. So you see, like there's a level

847
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: of danger here too, and the way that online communities

848
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: do everyone pushes each other more extreme. You gave birth

849
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: in an unpowered your well, fuck it, I'll give birth

850
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: and a ave or something like that. Like So, like

851
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 1: many Americans, Judith entered into this world with a distrust

852
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 1: of doctors. She'd been put under anesthesia as a child

853
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: and found the experience frightening. As a college student, a

854
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: doctor shrubbed off her in her ear pain, ignoring what

855
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: she thought was a real issue. Quote, just calculating all

856
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: the experiences I've had with doctors, I never felt heard,

857
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: I never felt listened to. And this is an extremely

858
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: common complaint from women who give birth in the United States,

859
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: very common. A lot of women will tell you I

860
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: didn't think the doctor was listening to me. I didn't

861
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: feel like they cared about my pain or my situation.

862
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean it's not just then that's I mean,

863
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: listen to sludge, you guys, listen to Yeah, like, every

864
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 1: every part of my story is that many people's stories,

865
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: which is why we need such a major overhaul of

866
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: the American healthcare system, because it is full of a

867
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 1: lot of medical professionals who are uh you, you know,

868
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: exhibiting certain biases against certain demographics of people, largely women,

869
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: people of color, queer people, people with invisible disabilities, plus

870
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: size people. I mean, so many groups of people are

871
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: ignored or their pain isn't believed or anything like that.

872
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: And uh, like, I can understand why certain people would

873
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I don't want to deal with like

874
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: the health care system. It's completely screwed me over, it's

875
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: completely neglected me. But I mean so that, I mean,

876
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:43,280
Speaker 1: the problem it is this system that is so broken.

877
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: But it's a lot of the problem is like everything

878
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: you've said is very valid, and I would add to that,

879
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: a lot of where these women go wrong is like

880
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: they recognize that the system is fucked up, and it is,

881
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: and they say, like the problem is then the doctors,

882
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: we need to just not have doctor is involved, and

883
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: it's like no, no, no. A big part of the

884
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: problem is actually there aren't nearly enough doctors and they're

885
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: all overworked. So even like the really good ones and

886
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: the ones who are capable of, like you know, transcending

887
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: those biases are also just like overworked and exhausted and

888
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: sleep deprived and piste off a lot of the time.

889
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: And maybe theyre don't give you the best bedside manner

890
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: because they're they're doing way too much work. And if

891
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: we had a lot more doctors, not only would you

892
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 1: have a wider a variety of life experiences among medical professionals,

893
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: and so you'd have more doctors who might understand members

894
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: of these groups, but you would also have less exhausted

895
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: doctors and so they'd be able to provide better care. Um,

896
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: there's so many problems with our So what we need,

897
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: what we need is for anyone who's considering starting a podcast,

898
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: don't do it. There's too many. Become a doctor instead,

899
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: every single one of you. Stop listening to our podcasts

900
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 1: and go to medicals. You know how easy it is

901
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: to just become a doctor. Just do that. Look, if

902
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast where you're putting up drywall

903
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: for your job as a day labor, drop that fucking

904
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: drywall hammer or whatever you used to put up drywall

905
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: and go become a doctor right now, right now. Podcasts over. Yeah.

906
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: So um. Judith is kind of very primed by her

907
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 1: past bad experiences with doctors to distrust doctors in the

908
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: first place. So when she starts listening to this Free

909
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: Birthing podcast and hearing its hosts used terms like industrial

910
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: obstetric tyranny, and birth rape, she was ready to graft

911
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: those words and the idea behind them onto her life.

912
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: She watched the Free Birth Society's introduction video hosted by

913
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: instructor Yolanda Norris Clark and the business partner of Emily Saldayah,

914
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: the host of the Free Birthing podcast, and I want

915
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 1: you to listen to how Yolanda introduces herself in this video, Sophie,

916
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: that's your queue. Oh, that's my cue. That's your cue.

917
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: I'm Yolanda Clark. I'm a writer, a birth consultant, and

918
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: I'm the director of Education with the Free Birth Society.

919
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: And my passion and mission in life is to share

920
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: the open secret that birth is not an inherently medical event,

921
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: but a spontaneous function of biology, and that it is

922
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: the pregnant woman herself who possesses inalienable authority over her

923
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: birth process. I woke up to the truth about birth

924
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: almost eighteen years ago, and since then, I've dedicated my

925
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,919
Speaker 1: life to studying birth and supporting euphoric birth. And I've

926
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,479
Speaker 1: given birth myself to seven healthy babies in my home

927
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: without any involvement from medical professionals at all, from conception

928
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: to emergence. I like how she includes uh, conception in there.

929
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: I didn't need a doctor present when I was fucking.

930
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: Fucking is easy. It doesn't require a doctor. Clearly childbirth

931
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: is the same. Yeah. Look, I don't need a doctor

932
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: around when I'm shooting off mc gunn, So why do

933
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: I need a doctor when I accidentally shoot my son? Yeah?

934
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: These wild leaps of logic are Yeah. I also if you.

935
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: You weren't the guest for our episodes on Keith Ranieri

936
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: in the next um cult. But if you go back

937
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: to the old videos of what's her name? That that

938
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: lady who was on Smallville, Alison Mac, Alison Mac talking

939
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: to Keith Ranieri, and listen to the cadence of their

940
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: voices and compare it to the cadence of Yolanda's voice.

941
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: They all talk the same way, with the same sort

942
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: of speech patterns, and I find that very interesting. Well, okay,

943
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: so to quote Hitler, yikes to quote Hitler. I mean,

944
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: you know what, There's a couple of things I'll quote

945
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: Hitler on in a sense of agreeing with him, and

946
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: one of them is how to convince a bunch of

947
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: people of something I only knew how to do it.

948
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: He wasn't bad. I'm only quoting the quote that you

949
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: already said from mine, CLO. But just like the power

950
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: of the human voice, right, So, yeah, I hope there

951
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: are people out there. I know that we were would

952
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: probably edit this out. No, it was wonderful. You cannot

953
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: edit audio. You cannot edit a human voice. Um, so

954
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: I hope there are enough people out there who can

955
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: like detect those like Culty like and now like the

956
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: just like propagandy. Yeah, that whole cadence to pick up

957
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: on the bullshit that they're spewing. And listeners couldn't see,

958
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: but she was doing this like almost like conductor like

959
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: hand motion the entire time. That was also very flowy

960
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 1: and swaye and Culty, Yes, thank you so much. Um yeah, so,

961
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: I mean I think, I mean, Robert, obviously you picked

962
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: up on it. Like, I just hope that for the

963
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: people out there who like listen to all these podcasts

964
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: out there, and they can, like they can tell when

965
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: people are being scary and spewing propaganda bullshit, and I

966
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 1: hope that they understand that when I tell them to

967
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: purchase bolt cutters and uh and okay um. So later

968
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: in that video, Yolanda warns against inducing labor, calling it

969
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: an eviction from the womb and basically arguing that it's

970
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: traumatic to the infant. She brags about taking her pregnancies

971
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: well past the normal forty weeks. In Yolanda's eyes, the

972
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: idea that the risk of still births rises rapidly after

973
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: forty two weeks is nonsense. She states, Babies come out.

974
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: Babies always come out, so when Judith's pregnancy crept past

975
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: forty two weeks, she assured herself it was fine by

976
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 1: remembering Yolanda's words. She also sought reinforcement from her friends

977
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: in the free Birthing Facebook group. Things were not fine,

978
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: of course, and her baby was in fact still born.

979
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: The only good news in this terrible story is that

980
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: this horrific tragedy shocked Judith out of the weird little

981
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: Internet cult she'd gotten drawn into. As she told NBC,

982
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: I think I brainwashed myself with the Internet, and I

983
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: that's what happened. The Internet like the fact that Judith

984
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: was capable of realizing this and acknowledging the bad decisions

985
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: that that set her on this path should key you

986
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: in on the critical fact that she's not a dumb person.

987
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: She's a person who did a dumb thing with a

988
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: horrible consequence, but she herself as an intelligent, capable, reasonable

989
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: human being. The Internet made her stupid. This doesn't take

990
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 1: away from her culpability in the tragedy, and she definitely

991
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: has quite a lot here, but it does highlight a

992
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: critical reality. Without this massive ecosystem totally tens of thousands

993
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,959
Speaker 1: of people and hundreds of dedicated content creators. Judith would

994
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: not have been able to convince herself to make these

995
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: bad decisions. This, this just wouldn't have happened in an

996
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: age in which this, this Internet infrastructure didn't exist. The

997
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: train of things that led to Judith stillbirth bears tremendous

998
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: similarities to the radicalization pathway for numerous neo Nazi and

999
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: white supremacist terrorists. Some dumb kid comes across a really

1000
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: transgressive podcast or a review of a movie they like

1001
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 1: by some YouTuber like Stefon Molineux, and that leads them

1002
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: to other content and eventually a more extreme communities, and

1003
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: after a few months or a few years, you've got

1004
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: yourself a committed white supremacist. And as is the case

1005
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: with all these new Nazis we're dealing with, there are

1006
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: specific individuals to blame for creating the radicalization pathways in

1007
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: the free birthing community. The Internet may have made Judith stupid,

1008
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: but it didn't do so on its own, and the

1009
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,439
Speaker 1: two people most responsible for the spread of the free

1010
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: birthing movement and it's modern deadly dimensions are Emily Seldiah

1011
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: and Yolanda Norris Clark. They wind up in every single

1012
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: one of these stories. Take the case of Lisa, a

1013
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: twenty nine year old Californian who talked to The Daily Beast.

1014
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: Lisa had been living off the grid in an eco

1015
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: friendly sort of you know situation in the middle of

1016
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: nowhere when she found a free birthing page on Instagram.

1017
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: The idea immediately appealed to her, and she joined the

1018
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: Free Birthing Facebook group that Emily Seldia ran. Like Judith,

1019
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: she kept her new friends up to day with her pregnancy.

1020
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: Quote been in labor for days. Thought I was in

1021
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: transition at PM, but now it's three am and it's

1022
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: intensely painful. Like I just want to lie down and

1023
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: for the pain to stop for a second. Saldiah reached

1024
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: out to her via Facebook messenger to give support. Other

1025
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 1: group members left comments like you're a legend. It will happen.

1026
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: Like Justine. Lisa's pregnancy went on for far too long.

1027
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,959
Speaker 1: Her baby was also born dead. She made a quick

1028
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: post to the Freebirth Societies Facebook group and people they're

1029
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 1: sympathized with her, But the important work of radicalizing other

1030
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: pregnant women to avoid hospitals and even midwives continued, or

1031
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: at least it would have if not for what happened next.

1032
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote from the Daily Beast again here.

1033
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: A group of concerned outsiders worried the free Birthers were

1034
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: being reckless and set up fake sock puppet accounts to

1035
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: gain intrigue to the private group and monitor its members.

1036
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: The interlopers saw themselves as centuries keeping watch over alternative

1037
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: lifestyle practitioners. They believe we're putting their babies in harm.

1038
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: The sock puppets took screenshots of Lisa's comments and posted

1039
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: them in their own groups, sparking instant outcry from their followers.

1040
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: Some of them marveled at why anyone would take such

1041
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: a risk with the pregnancy, while others blamed Seldia for

1042
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: luring impressionable women into a dangerous practice. Others were more vicious.

1043
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: The twat from the Free Birth Society needs drop kicking

1044
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: out of a fucking window. One person wrote, I wouldn't

1045
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: mind seeing this monster swinging from a light post at it. Another.

1046
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: So that's all the Internet that you and I know

1047
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: and love, Caitlin Um. Yeah. These eruptions of death threats

1048
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: and outrage by anti free breathing activists came to follow

1049
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,919
Speaker 1: every new dead baby story. When baby journey Moon died

1050
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen, the weight of attention and outrage

1051
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 1: leveled against the Free Birth Society caused Emily Saldia to

1052
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: close all four of her Facebook groups. And here's what

1053
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: she wrote in the post announcing this and oh boy,

1054
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: strap in for this one game, dear community, it is

1055
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 1: with a heavy heart that we officially announced the closing

1056
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 1: of our four wonderful groups here on Facebook as of

1057
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: November one. All members will be removed in the group's

1058
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: closed permanently. As many of you know, a member of

1059
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: our private Freebirth Society group tragically lost her baby during

1060
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: the birth process earlier this year. The painful reality is

1061
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: that babies do sometimes die in all settings, including the hospital,

1062
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: and every pregnant woman was content with the possibility of

1063
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: death which exists for each of us. Babies just die uh.

1064
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: Emily went on to complain about her own death threats,

1065
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: the ones that she had received from anti free birthing activists,

1066
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: and closed the post by announcing, in light of all this,

1067
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: we at Freebirth Society and are advancing our plan to

1068
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: move off Facebook to a safe and private membership platform

1069
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: m hm. Patreon. Yeah, that's actually exactly what they're doing.

1070
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: It's not Patreon, but that's the exactly the goal. This

1071
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: is a grift um. The private membership platform is not free.

1072
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: It cost a hundred and eight dollars to be a member.

1073
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 1: And since her Facebook group had more than six thousand

1074
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 1: members when she closed it down, the amount of more

1075
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: or forty six thousand members which she closed it down,

1076
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: the amount of money on the line here is potentially significant.

1077
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: And that's not the whole of the grift it's barely

1078
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 1: the start. Emily and Yolanda run a web's free Birth

1079
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: Society dot com on it. You can buy a coffee

1080
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: table book she rises, an annual edition of The Wild Mother,

1081
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 1: which is another thing these people call themselves for. You

1082
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: can also pay for a number of different cool services, Caitlin,

1083
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: you're gonna love hearing about this. There's the Lighthouse Leaders

1084
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: Group coaching series from a hundred and seventy five dollars,

1085
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: Birth Trauma Debrief for a hundred and fifty dollars, Radical

1086
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: Birthkeeper Consultation for a hundred dollars, Self Mastery coaching for

1087
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty dollars, an undisturbed birth education and

1088
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: prep for a hundred and fifty dollars. Now, I bet

1089
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 1: you wondering what is what is Radical Birthkeeper Consultation? I

1090
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: am wondering that, Please tell me. So I looked into

1091
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: it and it turns out it's a guide for other

1092
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: women to start their own business in the radical birthwork field.

1093
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: Cool Is there a market for that? Well? Because these

1094
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: ladies are making bank and Yolanda make it. A ton

1095
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: who wouldn't want to make money off of this? It's

1096
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: like making a money as a midwife, but with all

1097
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,320
Speaker 1: all of that pass key training and apprenticeship and learning

1098
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: useful medical ship. Oh good god. Here's a quote from

1099
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: the the page for that that thing new to birthwork,

1100
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: not sure where to start, or maybe you've been attending

1101
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: births for a while and you're feeling sick. If you're

1102
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 1: called to Radical Birthwork, identified by us as Standing within

1103
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: four Women, we are here to help you brainstorm business

1104
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: ideas and dive into all things birthwork. We have effectively

1105
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: coached many women who want to launch their birth businesses

1106
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: but don't know where to start or feel stymied by

1107
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: the pressures that they perceive from general social climate around

1108
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: birth or worry as to what and how to charge

1109
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: for their services. During the session, we will help you

1110
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: cut through the noise of self judgment and help you

1111
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: clarify your birthwork superpower and project your vision to the world,

1112
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: implement your passion and translate it into working with women

1113
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: with the highest integrity. This is a sixty minute session

1114
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: that will be done over FaceTime or zoom. Okay, so

1115
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: let me let me understand this. So they are basically

1116
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: they offer this service where you can consult with someone

1117
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: to learn how to be a person who will be

1118
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: present at free births, just to like help out in

1119
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: case anything goes wrong. So they acknowledge the need for

1120
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: people to be there, just people with actual medical medical training. Yeah,

1121
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: oh wow, Okay, this is kind of where I start

1122
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: to see it as like I don't think like Justine obviously,

1123
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: the one we've talked to the most, like there was

1124
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: no grift for her. She just thought this was the

1125
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:44,439
Speaker 1: best thing to do um and she was wrong. But

1126
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: these women, Yolanda Emily Seldiah and Yolanda Norris clark Um,

1127
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 1: these are people who just want the respect and money

1128
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: that a real professional like a midwife or a doctor

1129
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: receives as a result of what they do, but they

1130
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: don't want to take any training or get any kind

1131
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: of license or be told by anyone that whatever crazy

1132
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 1: ideas they have about birth are aren't like right. So

1133
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: they've just built up this community where they're treated like

1134
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: real medical professionals and essentially train other people and how

1135
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: to give birth without actually knowing how to train other

1136
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: people how to help give birth with no train like

1137
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: train people to not be trained. Yeah, it's mind boggling.

1138
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 1: It's incredible. And if you decide, Caitlin, that you want

1139
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: comprehensive coaching and how to free birth your own baby,

1140
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: Emily and Yolanda will be more than happy to help you.

1141
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 1: For a price. Their full coaching package is a bargain

1142
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: at just eight Oh yeah, well, I have decided that

1143
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 1: I want their help, so I'm going to start saving up.

1144
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 1: Midwives have to go to a place. Just give it

1145
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:58,439
Speaker 1: on Skype baby, that's the way easier. Now. I can't

1146
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,959
Speaker 1: say for certain that Lisa, one of the mothers whose

1147
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: baby died, was actively paying Yolanda and Emily for birth coaching,

1148
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: but the fact that she's mentioned getting Facebook messages from

1149
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 1: Saldia makes me think that she was uh and the

1150
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: precise wording of how the Daily Beasts discussed this as

1151
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: suspicious to me. Quote Saldaia says she provided no advice

1152
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 1: to Lisa and never even spoke to her on the

1153
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 1: phone doesn't mean she didn't. Different medium Maybe then, yeah,

1154
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: maybe I found Yolanda Norris Clark on Facebook and Instagram.

1155
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: She goes by bao house wife and sends out free

1156
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: birthing memes and updates to her combined twelve thousand followers.

1157
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: Here's one example. The idea that governments could ever have

1158
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: the legitimate jurisdiction to designate birthworkers or license birthwork in

1159
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 1: any capacity should be preposterous and outrageous to everyone. The

1160
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: fact that it isn't, and that so many women especially

1161
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 1: have accepted and even welcomed the appropriation of midwife re

1162
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 1: by the patriarchal, false authority of the official institutions just

1163
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 1: reinforces the task that we have at hand to rewild

1164
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 1: and re authenticate our relationship to ourselves, to motherhood, to

1165
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 1: our bodies, to our children, and to each other. Hashtag

1166
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: radical birthkeeper, hashtag radical birthwork, hashtag house wife, hashtag free birth,

1167
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: hashtag homebirth hashtag wildbirth, hashtag free birth Society, hashtag free

1168
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: birth Society, Radical Birthkeepers School, hashtag radical birthkeeper School, hashtag

1169
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: free birth Society. Okay, so these are like the turfs

1170
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: of birth there, these are birth turfs. Yeah, they're like you,

1171
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: we were so right before you said they were like

1172
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 1: co opting certain like language in terms of like pro

1173
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 1: choice language, and then but then they've just taken it

1174
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 1: to this such this horribly harmful radical Yikes. She has

1175
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: her own branded means. One of them reads governments have

1176
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: no business in birth. Birth belongs to women, which like, yeah,

1177
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 1: but when your baby dies because you like ignored science, Yeah,

1178
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 1: the baby has some rights too at the point at

1179
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 1: which it's coming out. Yeah. Now, the kind of this

1180
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: kind of language is powerfully effective to the women who

1181
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 1: wind up in these groups. Studies have been done on

1182
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: the freebirth and community in the US and Australia and

1183
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 1: four key things come up over and over again when

1184
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 1: women say how they found this community. And I'm quoting

1185
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: from a paper commissioned by Evidence based Midwifery. So this

1186
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 1: is a midwives like organization, rejection of the medical and

1187
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 1: midwifery models of birth, faith in the birth process, autonomy,

1188
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 1: and agency. There was a prevailing sense of choosing to

1189
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 1: freebirth in order to retain choice, control, and autonomy over

1190
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: their bodies during the birth process. It's about control. Another

1191
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 1: analysis I found on the conversation backs up this interpretation quote.

1192
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: Where home birth services were available, some women did not

1193
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 1: want the routine care that is provided by midwives. This

1194
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:56,839
Speaker 1: was largely due to the belief that routine care practices

1195
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 1: would cause interference that would get in the way of

1196
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: their ability to birth safe. Additionally, they were concerned that

1197
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 1: they may face coercion should they decline aspects of care

1198
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 1: provided by the midwives. Therefore, they did not want care

1199
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 1: imposed upon them during childbirth. The researchers findings across all

1200
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,600
Speaker 1: studies agreed that women ought to retain full control and

1201
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 1: autonomy throughout their experience of giving birth and need they

1202
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 1: felt maternity services were unable to meet. Yeah, because you can.

1203
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 1: You don't. You can't. It's not you don't own the baby.

1204
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 1: Once it's coming out, it's not your property, a thing.

1205
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 1: It's like it's leaving, it's it's it's getting on out

1206
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:40,000
Speaker 1: of there. Yeah. Oh gosh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I just

1207
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: you hate you hate to see it where they're like,

1208
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 1: they're like, yes, women's autonomy and agency and like, these

1209
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,600
Speaker 1: are things I so strongly agree with, and they're but

1210
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 1: they're they've just taken into this horrible, horrible place. They

1211
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 1: really do it rules Like I don't enjoy getting a

1212
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 1: pap smeir, but I'm not going to do it to

1213
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:10,960
Speaker 1: myself because I don't fucking know how. Yeah, I have

1214
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: given myself a pap smeir, but I don't know what

1215
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 1: a pap smear is. So I I just kind of

1216
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: you know, Robert May I explained to you what a

1217
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:23,640
Speaker 1: pap smear is. I think the reality of that situation,

1218
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: Caitlin is between me and my hammer. I'll let you

1219
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:32,679
Speaker 1: look at it. I'm pretty sure I'm good at it.

1220
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: It's unpleasant, to say the least. I'm starting the self

1221
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 1: schmir community actually, oh, the free schmeing, free smears. A

1222
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 1: lot of people say men cannot get and give themselves

1223
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 1: pap smears, even hammers, but my Facebook group says otherwise. Uh, Well,

1224
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 1: as long as um babies are not dying, I guess

1225
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 1: that's that's what's important here. No, no babies dying, some

1226
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 1: some people, some adults. Yeah, uh now, the sad reality

1227
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:07,840
Speaker 1: is that more and more babies are going to keep

1228
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 1: dying as a result of the free birthing movement. Emily

1229
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 1: Saldaya and Yolanda Norris Clark will continue podcasting and meming

1230
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,040
Speaker 1: and making bank while America's infant mortality rate ticks ever higher.

1231
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:19,679
Speaker 1: The NBC article that came out earlier this year helped

1232
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:21,640
Speaker 1: to highlight the movement, but in the end it may

1233
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 1: just draw more women into the movement's mall. That's certainly

1234
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: what Emily Saldiah thinks. In the immediate wake of the

1235
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 1: NBC article, which was focused around the death of a

1236
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 1: child from someone who followed Emily's instructions to a t

1237
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 1: she posted this on Instagram. Hey guys, no podcast this week.

1238
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 1: Decided to prioritize self care and create some spaciousness to

1239
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 1: relax and be fully present with my baby after an

1240
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 1: insane month of working my ass off on this membership launch.

1241
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 1: I'm extremely proud of what we've built and it feels

1242
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: so good to be off Facebook. Thank you for the

1243
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 1: outpouring of love and support I've reach received in this

1244
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,679
Speaker 1: hard as fun past six weeks. Someday, when I'm ready,

1245
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 1: I will talk at length about my experience on this

1246
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 1: full on cyber attack, but for now it's only furthered.

1247
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 1: By resolving this work, truth and light will always shine

1248
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 1: brighter and carry more endurance. And in the words of

1249
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 1: Lena Dunham, no one that actually knows me thinks I'm

1250
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: an asshole, and that's what matters. When you know and

1251
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 1: love who you are, you're unshakable. The bright side of

1252
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 1: all this weird media attention is it's brought a ton

1253
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,040
Speaker 1: of women to this movement. So fuck yes to transmitting

1254
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 1: people's traumatized shit energy into something powerful and exciting. Big

1255
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:26,320
Speaker 1: bicep emoticon, fist emoticon, And to all the haters out

1256
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: here that have gotten weirdly obsessed with me, I still

1257
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:29,600
Speaker 1: got all the love in my heart for you, and

1258
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 1: I will keep fighting for you, whether you're with me

1259
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 1: or not. Fire emoticon, hert emoticon, hert emoticon, hertomoticon, heart emoticon,

1260
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,719
Speaker 1: heart emoticon. Hashtag Free Birth Society, hashtag the Free Birth Podcast,

1261
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,440
Speaker 1: hashtag haters Gonna Hate Strong Women hashtag smash the patriarchy,

1262
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 1: hashtag calling bullshit hashtag light winds hashtag I Am Not

1263
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:49,480
Speaker 1: afraid hashtag strong as fuck hashtag Lena Dunham, You Inspire

1264
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 1: Me hashtag by by Facebook women are taking advice on

1265
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:03,639
Speaker 1: their babies health care from this person. That's so scary. Also,

1266
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 1: if I like, if I if it like, if I,

1267
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 1: I can't even speak it's amazing, it's astonishing, labbergasted. I

1268
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:18,640
Speaker 1: think if I if like, if my feminism ever inspired

1269
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 1: like free birthers to be like, yeah, smash the patriarchy,

1270
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 1: I will I don't know what I will do. I

1271
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 1: will have to just like log off and never be

1272
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:30,839
Speaker 1: present in the world again. Like if my message somehow

1273
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 1: gets convoluted to like this version of scary radical free

1274
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 1: birth feminism horrifying. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to give

1275
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:45,679
Speaker 1: birth in a hospital, but you do have to consult

1276
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:50,200
Speaker 1: medical professionals about your birth to do so responsibly, because

1277
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 1: when you decide you're bringing a baby into the world,

1278
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,519
Speaker 1: it's not all about you anymore. Um, But it is

1279
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 1: all about you when you're performing a home pap smear

1280
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 1: as a man. And that's why you should join my

1281
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:04,680
Speaker 1: Facebook group man Smearing, where we're teaching each other how

1282
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:09,760
Speaker 1: to recapture pap smearing from the medical industrial establishment and

1283
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:15,960
Speaker 1: the feminist establishment and remail and rewild pap smears for

1284
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 1: all of the men who have access to home depot hammers.

1285
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:27,080
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to respond to that, cait Um,

1286
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:31,719
Speaker 1: I will say this if what wouldn't it be funny

1287
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 1: if they were like m r A s out there

1288
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:36,599
Speaker 1: who were like um, men should be able to get

1289
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:40,400
Speaker 1: pap smears too. And then and then they go on

1290
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: and buy a speculum or sorry, a hammer and hammer

1291
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: the male pap smear is performed with a hammer. I see, um, well,

1292
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: I just I just keeel good, feel great. I just

1293
01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:02,240
Speaker 1: keep going back to like one of the roots of

1294
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 1: the problem that off that births the free birth movement.

1295
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 1: See what I did there, Midwolf okay, um is the

1296
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:17,719
Speaker 1: broken American health care system. And if we totally find

1297
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:24,240
Speaker 1: a way to fix that, I feel like there would

1298
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 1: there would never be a need any any you know

1299
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: mother's to feel the need to have a free birthing experience. Um.

1300
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 1: So that I mean, I mean, gosh, I feel sick. Well,

1301
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 1: if you're feeling sick, that means it's the perfect time

1302
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:50,560
Speaker 1: to plug your plug doubles, because nothing cures your ailments

1303
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:54,360
Speaker 1: like a solid plug. Thank you well, I'll start with

1304
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: Sludge and American Healthcare Story, my podcast about my experience

1305
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: finding out that I had gall stones and the very

1306
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 1: long and arduous process that it took from me to

1307
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 1: get surgery to get them taken out. So check out

1308
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 1: that and it's amazing. Thank you so much, Sophie. I

1309
01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:18,320
Speaker 1: keep um saying, yeah, I'm releasing season two soon and

1310
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:20,719
Speaker 1: I don't know when that's going to happen, but it'll

1311
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 1: happen someday. But season two focuses on other people's medical

1312
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 1: nightmare stories. So fans and medical nightmares. Yeah, I mean

1313
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 1: I want, I will sure, Yeah, I'll have anyone on

1314
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:39,599
Speaker 1: if anyone has a medical that's the other thing. If

1315
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,559
Speaker 1: people have medical horror stories, UM, please email them to

1316
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 1: me at Sludge Story podcast at gmail dot com. Um,

1317
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 1: I'll probably feature them on the podcast again when I

1318
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 1: start releasing episodes someday. Um. Yeah, I just I want

1319
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 1: to have faith in a health care system. Um, it

1320
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 1: just needs to be very much revamped. So um yeah,

1321
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 1: let's work on that society anyway. Um. You can listen

1322
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 1: to my less of a bummer podcast, The Bechtel Cast,

1323
01:18:12,160 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 1: which is also still kind of a bummer sometimes because

1324
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 1: it's all about how, um, most movies are horrible to women. UM,

1325
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:24,879
Speaker 1: so you know sometimes they're not, though, and those episodes

1326
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:28,440
Speaker 1: are nice. Um. And then you can follow me on

1327
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:34,599
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Caitlin durante um and uh yeah,

1328
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 1: I think that's that's about it. And you can find

1329
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:42,960
Speaker 1: me on the internet at man schmearing dot com and

1330
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 1: the man Smearing Facebook group where we talk about how

1331
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 1: to reclaim our wherever you do that from doctors and

1332
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 1: the them an atriarchy. Um. That's that's at the end

1333
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,920
Speaker 1: of the episode. So what Robert meant to say is

1334
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: he's at I Ride Okay on Twitter or at Bastard

1335
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,679
Speaker 1: Spot on Twitter. On Instagram, we have a te public store.

1336
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 1: Robert also hosts Worst You're Ever. Uh I have Twitter, yes,

1337
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:19,080
Speaker 1: so like your Twitter. I've actually never I've actually never

1338
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 1: said it out loud. It's why Underscore, Sophie Underscore, Why

1339
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:31,439
Speaker 1: Anderson Content. That's it, okay, So why Sophie, I why okay?

1340
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:34,919
Speaker 1: And then because you're a professional, okay, So follow Sophie

1341
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:39,759
Speaker 1: Ray Lectorman at on Twitter at why Underscore, Sophie Underscore

1342
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:43,640
Speaker 1: Why and then he features Anderson content. I thought the

1343
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 1: whole handle for a second. Was that professional like you,

1344
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:58,200
Speaker 1: I'm a hack in a fraud. That episode