Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKP Daily with me
Speaker 1: your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the home bunker.
Speaker 2: Folks.
Speaker 1: With so much just shitty news these days, I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to bring today's interview to you. Lee Sounders, the
Speaker 1: president of ask Me, the one of the largest organizations
Speaker 1: that represents unions in the country. Him and I got
Speaker 1: into a conversation about the importance of unions of quality jobs,
Speaker 1: of jobs that provide not only a living wage, but
Speaker 1: dignity and full disclosure. As you all may know if
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the show for a while, is
Speaker 1: that last year I had the wonderful pleasure. There's not
Speaker 1: a lot that I get to do sometimes outside of
Speaker 1: direct and that political analysis, which is just becoming so
Speaker 1: fucking draining. I cannot express to you all enough. But anyway,
Speaker 1: last year I had the pleasure of doing some wonderful
Speaker 1: storytelling workshops and media training for members of Ask Me,
Speaker 1: and it was such a fucking joy. I cannot express
Speaker 1: it enough. To talk with janitors and you know, and
Speaker 1: teachers and optometrists and you know, the people who make
Speaker 1: our communities tick that don't get the respect and the
Speaker 1: pay that they deserve and to talk with real people, right,
Speaker 1: some of which were quote unquote essential workers, and talking
Speaker 1: to them about their experience of working, you know, going
Speaker 1: to work during COVID while so many of us were
Speaker 1: quarantining at home, and what that experience was like. And
Speaker 1: while we love to say that these folks are essential,
Speaker 1: we treat them in many ways in our society like
Speaker 1: they are disposable while lifting up the fucking you know,
Speaker 1: billionaires and millionaires that make money off of their backs
Speaker 1: and our backs. So this conversation with President Saunders today
Speaker 1: was just you know, a little bright light, you know,
Speaker 1: in really increasingly just exhausting and dark times. I've said
Speaker 1: this to you all before that it is imperative, imperative
Speaker 1: to look for the light daily so that you do
Speaker 1: not succumb to darkness. And I hope that today's conversation
Speaker 1: is and can provide a bright light. Coming up next
Speaker 1: my conversation with President Lee Sounders, folks, I am very
Speaker 1: excited to welcome back to WOKF Daily President Lee Saunders,
Speaker 1: who is the president of the American Federation of State,
Speaker 1: County and Municipal Employees. Ask me, you have heard me
Speaker 1: talk about this organization which represents about one point four
Speaker 1: million people across the country in a mirror of different occupations,
Speaker 1: including nurses to correction officers, childcare providers. It runs the
Speaker 1: gamut and President Lee Saunders is the first African American
Speaker 1: to serve as ask Me's president. President Saunders talk to
Speaker 1: me about the importance of ask ME and how unions,
Speaker 1: and particularly your union, impact communities.
Speaker 2: Well, we consider our one point four million members everyday
Speaker 2: heroes who provide important and crucial public services to the
Speaker 2: citizens of this country and communities across this country. You
Speaker 2: mentioned just a few of the occupations, but if you
Speaker 2: look at public service and the occupations within public service,
Speaker 2: whether it's a sanitation worker, whether it is a correction
Speaker 2: officers you stated, a social worker, childcare worker, home care workers.
Speaker 2: We represent those members across the country and they provide
Speaker 2: essential public services to all of us. And sometimes they
Speaker 2: work in the background and you don't even know they're there.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you forget about the public services that are provided,
Speaker 2: whether you're drinking clean water or having your trash picked up,
Speaker 2: or protecting one another. And that's what our members do
Speaker 2: every single day, and that's why it's very important for
Speaker 2: them to have a seat at the table and a
Speaker 2: voice on the job, and the union provides that for them.
Speaker 1: And I appreciate that work so very much. My mother
Speaker 1: is a retired nurse and so was a part of AFSME,
Speaker 1: a part of the union, and I have spent last
Speaker 1: year working with some of your wonderful members in helping
Speaker 1: tell their incredible stories of the work that they do
Speaker 1: and why it's so important. And I think that one time,
Speaker 1: when I was in a training someone had said, you know,
Speaker 1: these are the jobs that no one recognizes when they're
Speaker 1: done well, but they always recognize when they're not done
Speaker 1: or when something goes wrong and you need it. And
Speaker 1: these are jobs that are integral to how our communities function.
Speaker 1: And so why do you think that it is so important,
Speaker 1: particularly in this day and age where we're seeing so
Speaker 1: many union battles, that unions exist well.
Speaker 2: It provides the opportunities for workers to make a choice,
Speaker 2: and that choice is to try to deal with things
Speaker 2: on your own, or operate in an environment where you
Speaker 2: have come together with other workers at the same workplace,
Speaker 2: the same work site, and to have that seat at
Speaker 2: the table to negotiate wages and benefits and working conditions,
Speaker 2: and that's extremely important. And you see that there is
Speaker 2: a change going on in this country right now as
Speaker 2: far as workers wanting to be a part of unions
Speaker 2: and wanting to organize into unions. And you especially see it, Danielle,
Speaker 2: with young people wanting to come together and understanding the
Speaker 2: importance of doing this. They want to have some control
Speaker 2: over their lives. They want to have that seat at
Speaker 2: the table to talk about their wage increases or their wages.
Speaker 2: They want to talk about pensions, they want to talk
Speaker 2: about healthcare, they want to talk about working conditions, all
Speaker 2: of those kinds of things. The way that you do
Speaker 2: that is not through one on one conversation, but it's
Speaker 2: through an aggressive, proactive choice of belonging to a union
Speaker 2: to fight for these things at the table. And you
Speaker 2: see it happening all over the country.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that we dip and kind of
Speaker 1: we go up and then we go down in terms
Speaker 1: of how society as a whole either is celebrating unions
Speaker 1: or demonizing them. Right, And I look at essentially where
Speaker 1: some of the big headlines in the last couple of
Speaker 1: years have been around Starbucks employees, and have been around
Speaker 1: Amazon employees and the auto workers as well as the
Speaker 1: ups right workers who we see these everyday. People take
Speaker 1: on what I will say. I'm not putting words in
Speaker 1: your mouth, but these are my words. Very greedy corporations
Speaker 1: who have forgotten why they have received so much wealth
Speaker 1: over the years. Right and unions then are demonized because
Speaker 1: they say, well, corporations, they can't be regulated because then
Speaker 1: they'll lose money and people will lose jobs. What do
Speaker 1: you say to that, Well.
Speaker 2: First of all, let me just give you some very
Speaker 2: important statistics as far as the way that people feel
Speaker 2: currently about about union. Sixty seven percent of the American
Speaker 2: public support unions and what they stand for just as important,
Speaker 2: if not more important. Eighty eight percent of young people
Speaker 2: understand the importance of union. So those people have got
Speaker 2: to understand this. And now I'm going to give you
Speaker 2: another statistic. Okay, in nineteen sixty five, CEOs were making
Speaker 2: twenty one times as much as the typical worker, union
Speaker 2: and non union. Okay, today, as we speak, CEOs are
Speaker 2: making three hundred and fifty times more than the average worker.
Speaker 2: People understand that that is wrong, that that's not a
Speaker 2: level playing field, and the way to combat that, the
Speaker 2: way to get in the game and put skin in
Speaker 2: the game is to join a union and fight for
Speaker 2: your rights at the bargaining table.
Speaker 1: How has that been able to happen? President Saunders? Where
Speaker 1: you go from such an extraordinary jump over sixty years,
Speaker 1: where at one time it was twenty one times what
Speaker 1: a worker was and now it's three hundred. How does
Speaker 1: that happen?
Speaker 2: I think that corporations and CEOs have the ability to
Speaker 2: slant their story so it impinges upon, infringes upon what
Speaker 2: unions are trying to do. They've got a bunch of
Speaker 2: money and they've got a bunch of power, and they
Speaker 2: will talk and spread rumors misinformation about unions, and people
Speaker 2: were believing that. But now I think that it's kind
Speaker 2: of reversed. Even though they've still got all that money
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to do the same thing. People are
Speaker 2: standing up and saying no way. I mean, you mentioned Starbucks, right,
Speaker 2: I mean you mentioned what happened with the UAW strike
Speaker 2: and with the Teamsters, with us organizing absently organizing childcare
Speaker 2: and home care workers. People are saying, get real, get real,
Speaker 2: and people are willing to stand up and fight for it.
Speaker 2: People also understand this when you look at our history,
Speaker 2: labor unions have stood tall, especially in the sixties, and
Speaker 2: connecting ourselves with progressive movements that fight for workers' rights.
Speaker 2: Look the March on Washington. The original topic of that
Speaker 2: was March on Washington for Jobs right. And you look
Speaker 2: who helped plan that along with doctor King and his people.
Speaker 2: But it was a guy named a Philip Randolph, and
Speaker 2: it was a guy named bayart Rustin who came out
Speaker 2: of unions. They understood the connection between civil rights and
Speaker 2: labor rights. And it's so important that we remind your
Speaker 2: listeners of this, especially in African American history month Black
Speaker 2: is Free Month, where there is a direct connection in
Speaker 2: developing the necessary alliances between labor and communities of color
Speaker 2: and folks who believe that working people should have a
Speaker 2: shot at that American dream to come together and fight
Speaker 2: for it. You know, we're a union that came out
Speaker 2: of a major struggle in nineteen sixty eight, and you're
Speaker 2: aware of this. When thirteen hundred sanitation workers in Memphis, Tennessee,
Speaker 2: decided that they were sick and tired of being sick
Speaker 2: and tired, and they went on strike on strike February
Speaker 2: twelfth of nineteen sixty eight because two of their co
Speaker 2: workers were crushed in the back of a sanitation truck
Speaker 2: trying to get out of bad weather. And this problem
Speaker 2: had been brought to the management's attention on many times
Speaker 2: that they were dealing with faulty equipment, and guess what,
Speaker 2: they didn't listen to them. They just told them to
Speaker 2: get back out there and work as hard as you can.
Speaker 2: We don't care what happens to you. There's a history
Speaker 2: there and there is a struggle there that people have
Speaker 2: got to connect with today. I mean, that struggle is
Speaker 2: real today as well, especially in the African American community.
Speaker 2: That's why we put out a podcast called I Am
Speaker 2: which talks about the struggle in nineteen sixty eight, but
Speaker 2: what we must do today to continue that fate. If
Speaker 2: thirteen hundred sanitation workers in the Deep South African Americans
Speaker 2: could fight back with their union and they were members
Speaker 2: of Local seventeen thirty three ass me and be successful
Speaker 2: and win, then you know what, we can overcome any obstacle.
Speaker 2: And that's what the story is that we've got to
Speaker 2: continue to tell folks. So when people are organizing, you
Speaker 2: look back at that nineteen sixty eight strike or other
Speaker 2: strikes that we've had across the country and saying it
Speaker 2: can be done. It can be done when we're bringing
Speaker 2: our communities together and talking about the injustices that exist,
Speaker 2: the fact that corporations are making so much money, the
Speaker 2: CEOs are making so much money, and they don't want
Speaker 2: to share in those profits. Then people relate to that.
Speaker 2: And that's why it's such an exciting time for labor
Speaker 2: right now, because you've got young people organizing within our union.
Speaker 2: We're organizing cultural workers like never before, and museums and
Speaker 2: libraries and zoos and they're coming and you know what,
Speaker 2: they're coming to us asking us to help them provide
Speaker 2: support so they can organize at the workplace. And so
Speaker 2: we've got to make all of these kinds of connections
Speaker 2: and understand that we've come a long way, but we've
Speaker 2: still got a long way to go, and we've got
Speaker 2: to take advantage of the moment. And this moment is
Speaker 2: that people understand the importance of organizing.
Speaker 1: When you think about nineteen sixty eight, right, and how
Speaker 1: that's relatively right in the grand scheme of things, small
Speaker 1: group of black workers were able to make real change,
Speaker 1: and we kind of look at COVID nineteen, right, was it?
Speaker 1: I think, and I want to get your thoughts, was
Speaker 1: a very big wake up in terms of how people
Speaker 1: were treated in various industries. We don't have a caste
Speaker 1: system in the United States, but we very well were
Speaker 1: aware of the economic caste and class system that was
Speaker 1: so hard to ignore during COVID. How do you think
Speaker 1: that that, particularly as it was affecting more black and
Speaker 1: brown workers that were in the quote unquote essential roles,
Speaker 1: how do you think that that helped to reshape our
Speaker 1: vision and thought around workers and unions because.
Speaker 2: People, I think shared their experiences and talked about the
Speaker 2: injustices it existed during COVID. You look at the United
Speaker 2: food and commercial workers and they were forced to work
Speaker 2: in unhealthy plants, They were told to come to work
Speaker 2: when they were sick, I mean, and there were so
Speaker 2: many things happening to them, and they finally stood up
Speaker 2: and said this is wrong. I mean, this is absolutely wrong.
Speaker 2: This is we're living in the richest country in the world,
Speaker 2: that we're being forced to work under slave labor, to
Speaker 2: work under situations that are not healthy. And people said
Speaker 2: enough was enough. And you had this happening in each industry.
Speaker 2: You had it happening in the public sector, in the
Speaker 2: public service with healthcare workers having to go to those
Speaker 2: hospitals because they were short staffed, having to wear garbage
Speaker 2: bags as gowns. Right, yeah, okay, because the employer didn't
Speaker 2: provide them with the necessary equipment and masks. And so
Speaker 2: I think that there was a storm brewing and all
Speaker 2: of it came together where folks said, Okay, this is crazy,
Speaker 2: We've had enough, and people rallied around the importance of
Speaker 2: coming together and make your collective voice heard. And we've
Speaker 2: got to take advantage of this moment. And you see
Speaker 2: it happening, especially in the African American community. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you look at the last BLS statistics, three hundred
Speaker 2: and nine thousand workers of color joined the labor movement
Speaker 2: last year. I mean, that's a good number. But we
Speaker 2: can do better, and we can do more, and we've
Speaker 2: got to we've got to continue the level of excitement
Speaker 2: that exists right now, and we've got to continue to
Speaker 2: talk to workers and talk about the importance of unions
Speaker 2: and to have that seat at the table. And they
Speaker 2: will come. Now I will say this, we will continue
Speaker 2: and labor is committed to organizing new workers, people of color,
Speaker 2: and all workers. But we've got to have a change
Speaker 2: in the labor laws in this country because the level
Speaker 2: the playing field is not level. And if you look
Speaker 2: at the Amazon workers, for example, where they organized what
Speaker 2: two years ago in New York, they haven't even had
Speaker 2: a chance to sit at the table. Yet. You look
Speaker 2: at the Starbucks workers, they've been at the table, but
Speaker 2: a number of them have been fired and they have
Speaker 2: not resolved any or come to an agreement on a
Speaker 2: contract because the employer can spend billions of dollars stalling
Speaker 2: those negotiations instead of putting those dollars into the pockets
Speaker 2: of workers who are providing those functions and those services
Speaker 2: across the country. So we've got to attack this from
Speaker 2: a variety of points. We've got to continue to organize,
Speaker 2: we've got to change labor laws in this country. And
Speaker 2: the way you do that is through the political process
Speaker 2: in the public sector. In the private sector, you've got
Speaker 2: the National Labor Relations Act that must be changed. And
Speaker 2: the public sector, we're pushing for something called the Public
Speaker 2: Service Freedom to Negotiate Act because we are not covered
Speaker 2: under the national law. Where there is a level playing
Speaker 2: field for workers to organize and to reach fair contracts,
Speaker 2: or there will be impeditiments put on and we'd have
Speaker 2: to figure out how to deal with the employer. Different fact,
Speaker 2: they try to block those kinds of efforts. So we're
Speaker 2: going to continue to organize, but we really need labor
Speaker 2: law change, in labor law reform in this country as well.
Speaker 1: How do you think you know, you mentioned politics, and
Speaker 1: then obviously this is all deeply rooted in politics as
Speaker 1: well as in policy. How do you think that we
Speaker 1: need to have a conversation about labor and democracy. How
Speaker 1: does labor in your mind, the labor movement strengthen our
Speaker 1: conversation around a secure democracy.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think you have to look
Speaker 2: at the way that we operate internally. I mean, labor
Speaker 2: unions are democracy in action. People take votes, We elect
Speaker 2: our leaders within the local union leadership. You establish processes
Speaker 2: to decide what's going to be bargained for, having that
Speaker 2: bargaining committee set up. When a tentative agreement is reached,
Speaker 2: and you saw that with the UAW and with the
Speaker 2: Teamsters and with all of us, then we take those agreements,
Speaker 2: those tentative agreements back to the members to vote it
Speaker 2: up or to vote it down. So we are democracy
Speaker 2: in action. But we also understand that there's a threat
Speaker 2: to our democracy with all the kinds of things that
Speaker 2: we have fought for and stand for every single day.
Speaker 2: Whether it's voting rights, okay, that's one, whether it's labor rights,
Speaker 2: whether it's economic justice, whether it's women's rights. I mean,
Speaker 2: we support those efforts all the time, and not only
Speaker 2: support it by talking about it, but many times supporting
Speaker 2: it through our resources that we have. Because even if
Speaker 2: you may not be a union member, you care about
Speaker 2: those values that we care about, we believe and what
Speaker 2: we've got to do is show that there is a
Speaker 2: bigger picture and that we are involved in a movement
Speaker 2: within labor and among our allies and friends in our
Speaker 2: communities across the country to make our voices heard together
Speaker 2: and fight for the things we really believe in. And
Speaker 2: we're doing that every single day. And that's why the
Speaker 2: political environment right now is so important. Where we fight
Speaker 2: for what we believe in, and we vote for what
Speaker 2: we believe in, and we're educating and mobilizing and organizing
Speaker 2: our members and our communities across the country not to
Speaker 2: tell them how to vote who to vote for. We
Speaker 2: should never do that, but we try to educate our
Speaker 2: folks about Okay, who's going to improve your lives and
Speaker 2: the lives of your families and who wants to destroy
Speaker 2: your life?
Speaker 1: Final question for you, what can our listeners do? Who
Speaker 1: would love to get involved, who would love to support?
Speaker 1: Ask me what can they do in order to get involved?
Speaker 2: Well, if you see that there's an organizing campaign, not
Speaker 2: only asks me, but with any union in your sitting,
Speaker 2: give support. Give support when you see a picket line.
Speaker 2: Don't just drive by that picket line and act like
Speaker 2: it doesn't exist. Stop your car and get out and
Speaker 2: thank the workers for what they're doing, for standing up
Speaker 2: for themselves. Be vocal and be educated about the issues
Speaker 2: that confront working families, because I guarantee you it affects
Speaker 2: members of your own families. Everyone is impacted by the
Speaker 2: policies that are being established by federal and state government
Speaker 2: regarding workers having a better life or having a light
Speaker 2: that is not so good. So you've got to stand
Speaker 2: up in coalition and make your voices heard every single day.
Speaker 2: We can't run from this battle. We can't run from
Speaker 2: this fight, and we've got to be very vocal and
Speaker 2: active about working with folks to have a better life
Speaker 2: across the country.
Speaker 1: President Lee Sounders, thank you so much for making the
Speaker 1: time to join WKP. I really appreciate your work, I
Speaker 1: appreciate your organization, and it has been a pleasure to
Speaker 1: talk to you today.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on wok
Speaker 1: f as always, power to the people and to all
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.