1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob. Before we start the show today, 2 00:00:23,476 --> 00:00:26,756 Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you for listening. I 3 00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:30,116 Speaker 1: really appreciate it, We all really appreciate it. And if 4 00:00:30,116 --> 00:00:32,636 Speaker 1: there's any way we can make the show better, make 5 00:00:32,676 --> 00:00:35,836 Speaker 1: a show that you like better, please tell us how 6 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:38,676 Speaker 1: to do that. You can email us at problem at 7 00:00:38,716 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 1: pushkin dot fm. You can also find me on x 8 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:46,196 Speaker 1: at Jacob Goldstein or on LinkedIn and I read all 9 00:00:46,236 --> 00:00:49,036 Speaker 1: the emails we get. So please let us know what 10 00:00:49,076 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: we can do to make the show better. And mostly 11 00:00:52,316 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 1: thanks for listening. Here is the show. I'm Jacob Goldstein, 12 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 1: and this is What's Your Problem. My guest today is 13 00:01:04,156 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 1: Tom Levinson. He's a professor of science writing at MIT 14 00:01:07,596 --> 00:01:10,516 Speaker 1: and the author of a book called So Very Small. 15 00:01:10,756 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: It's a book that tells the story of one of 16 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:16,196 Speaker 1: the most important breakthroughs in the history of human knowledge. 17 00:01:16,356 --> 00:01:19,196 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm overstating it. It's the discovery that 18 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:24,116 Speaker 1: germs caused disease. Before we figured that out, most people 19 00:01:24,156 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 1: who ever lived died from infections. After we figured it out, 20 00:01:28,196 --> 00:01:31,676 Speaker 1: scientists very quickly came up with new vaccines to prevent 21 00:01:31,756 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 1: infections and new drugs that could treat infections after they happened. 22 00:01:36,356 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: Realizing that germs caused disease and building on that insight 23 00:01:40,036 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 1: has saved billions of lives. And there's something really interesting 24 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:48,236 Speaker 1: at the center of this story. Bacteria were first discovered 25 00:01:48,356 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: in the late sixteen hundreds, but people didn't realize that 26 00:01:51,596 --> 00:01:55,876 Speaker 1: they caused disease until the late eighteen hundreds. So Tom's 27 00:01:55,876 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 1: book asked this big question, why did it take so 28 00:01:59,156 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: long to figure it out? Which for me points to 29 00:02:01,916 --> 00:02:05,636 Speaker 1: an interesting question for today. What does that tell us 30 00:02:05,676 --> 00:02:08,676 Speaker 1: about the way humans understand the world. What does it 31 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:12,356 Speaker 1: tell us about our willingness or unwillingness to change our views. 32 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:16,356 Speaker 1: We started our conversation by talking about the first person 33 00:02:16,596 --> 00:02:20,636 Speaker 1: ever to see bacteria. He was a Dutch cloth merchant 34 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:24,236 Speaker 1: and his name was Anthony van Lavenhook. In the late 35 00:02:24,276 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds. He gets into building microscopes, which was like 36 00:02:27,236 --> 00:02:30,036 Speaker 1: a popular hobby at the time, and he gets really 37 00:02:30,076 --> 00:02:34,356 Speaker 1: good at it, which allows him to make this extraordinary discovery. 38 00:02:34,836 --> 00:02:37,556 Speaker 2: Lavan, you know, the great breakthrough is he saw this 39 00:02:38,316 --> 00:02:42,596 Speaker 2: entirely new domain of life. You know what I call 40 00:02:42,636 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 2: in the book the microcosmos, This this utterly invisible to 41 00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:50,356 Speaker 2: the naked eye, yet enormously rich and teeming with life 42 00:02:50,356 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 2: and varieties of life and all kinds of things going 43 00:02:52,676 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 2: on in you know, the gunk between your teeth and 44 00:02:55,556 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 2: a drop of pond water, and you know, and so on. 45 00:02:57,916 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 1: Well, you're doing this list, but he really did, right. 46 00:02:59,796 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 1: He took the tartar from his teeth and put it 47 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:05,516 Speaker 1: on a microscopic slide. He did exactly and saw and 48 00:03:05,556 --> 00:03:07,716 Speaker 1: saw what what did he see? When he looked at 49 00:03:07,756 --> 00:03:08,996 Speaker 1: his own tooth gung? 50 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 2: He saw what he referred to as well in English, 51 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 2: animacules little tiny animals, right, and we now know they 52 00:03:19,756 --> 00:03:25,236 Speaker 2: were bacterian in some cases, you know, protozoa and other 53 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:30,636 Speaker 2: forms of microscopic life, but definitely bacteria that had different shapes. 54 00:03:30,676 --> 00:03:33,556 Speaker 2: He saw the little cilia the bacteria have to help 55 00:03:33,596 --> 00:03:38,916 Speaker 2: them move. He saw corkskew shapes like that of the 56 00:03:38,916 --> 00:03:43,916 Speaker 2: family of bacteria that includes the syphilis Bacterium, and little 57 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:47,436 Speaker 2: round ones so called cocy like Streptococcus, and many many 58 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:50,756 Speaker 2: others that are completely benign. He saw all these things, 59 00:03:51,396 --> 00:03:55,196 Speaker 2: and you know what was impressive about that is he 60 00:03:55,996 --> 00:04:00,156 Speaker 2: recognized that these were similar forms of life, and that 61 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:02,156 Speaker 2: they were all very very tiny they were all on 62 00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:06,796 Speaker 2: a similar scale, but there was enormously you know, rich 63 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:09,756 Speaker 2: differences between them. There was a whole bunch of this stuff. 64 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:13,236 Speaker 2: And you know, we would call it now an ecosystem, 65 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 2: a microbial ecosystem, a microbiome as the current term. But 66 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:21,716 Speaker 2: he saw enough to recognize that this was at least 67 00:04:21,796 --> 00:04:24,996 Speaker 2: there in, you know, without the apparatus, without the ideas 68 00:04:24,996 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 2: that could you bring it into our modern understanding. 69 00:04:27,996 --> 00:04:30,716 Speaker 1: So he sees this, he doesn't keep it to himself. 70 00:04:30,836 --> 00:04:34,916 Speaker 1: He actually publishes all these papers with detailed drawings of 71 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 1: the bacteria. He sees other people basically confirm the findings 72 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:41,676 Speaker 1: and they see that they're bacteria everywhere. But then you 73 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:45,596 Speaker 1: ask this question in the book, because so this is 74 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 1: late sixteen hundreds. He sees germs. They are germs. He 75 00:04:48,516 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: doesn't use that word, but he knows what they are. 76 00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:53,836 Speaker 1: They're little creatures that are living inside our body. And 77 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 1: yet it's going to take two hundred years to figure 78 00:04:57,556 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 1: out that germs cause disease, and so kind of an 79 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:04,836 Speaker 1: interesting animating question of your book is why did it 80 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 1: take so long? Why did it take so long for 81 00:05:07,436 --> 00:05:10,556 Speaker 1: people to make that connection? So what is your answer? 82 00:05:10,636 --> 00:05:12,396 Speaker 1: Why do you think it did take so long. 83 00:05:15,396 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 2: You know, I've spent a lot of time in thinking 84 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 2: about and writing different things to sort of try and 85 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 2: understand what makes you know, scientific knowledge happen. And in 86 00:05:31,236 --> 00:05:34,956 Speaker 2: this case, I think you see very clearly that it's 87 00:05:35,156 --> 00:05:42,756 Speaker 2: very hard to replace an underlying theory without both a 88 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:46,116 Speaker 2: compelling need to do so there's something you can't explain 89 00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 2: that you really want explain, and with a coherent alternative 90 00:05:52,036 --> 00:05:54,716 Speaker 2: theory that can explain what you need to have explained, 91 00:05:55,556 --> 00:06:00,196 Speaker 2: and you know, advance advanced state of knowledge. And one 92 00:06:00,196 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 2: of the reasons that's so hard to do is because 93 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 2: you know, what we think at any given time is 94 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:14,036 Speaker 2: wrongly constrained by I guess you could call it a worldview. 95 00:06:14,316 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 2: And the big thing that was going on in the 96 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 2: seventeenth and eighteenth and into the nineteenth centuries was you know, 97 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:26,596 Speaker 2: the sort of the over the overarching question that made 98 00:06:26,596 --> 00:06:29,916 Speaker 2: it hard to think about. The idea that these that 99 00:06:29,996 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 2: these microbes could could actually, you know, meaningfully impinge on 100 00:06:34,516 --> 00:06:40,276 Speaker 2: human life, actually do something to us. Was a notion 101 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:45,316 Speaker 2: of human beings outside of and sort of in command 102 00:06:45,396 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 2: of nature. And at the start of the story that's 103 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 2: expressed very much in religious terms, and you know that 104 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:56,076 Speaker 2: gets articulated into a very explicit hierarchy God at the top, 105 00:06:56,196 --> 00:06:59,076 Speaker 2: than the angels, than humankind, and then sort of all 106 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:02,676 Speaker 2: the rest of nature. So when you observe when when 107 00:07:02,716 --> 00:07:07,796 Speaker 2: you first see microbes, the idea that they may be 108 00:07:07,876 --> 00:07:12,756 Speaker 2: consequential is very, very hard to get your head around. 109 00:07:13,916 --> 00:07:16,876 Speaker 2: We're in command of nature. These are tiny, diminutive things. 110 00:07:17,316 --> 00:07:20,396 Speaker 2: The idea that they could meaningfully you know, matter to 111 00:07:20,636 --> 00:07:24,356 Speaker 2: us requires them to sort of climb up that great 112 00:07:24,436 --> 00:07:28,436 Speaker 2: chain of being and develop an agency that you know, 113 00:07:28,556 --> 00:07:34,756 Speaker 2: biblically and emotionally, is we really reserve for ourselves. 114 00:07:34,516 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 1: The first part of what you said is interesting, right, Like, 115 00:07:38,356 --> 00:07:41,476 Speaker 1: they thought they knew what caused disease, right, they thought 116 00:07:41,476 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 1: it was humor's a bad air, and so they didn't 117 00:07:45,876 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 1: think they had a problem. They didn't think they had 118 00:07:47,916 --> 00:07:50,356 Speaker 1: a gap in their knowledge, which which has to have 119 00:07:50,396 --> 00:07:51,116 Speaker 1: been part of it. 120 00:07:51,716 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 2: You need to have a reason to change your ideas. 121 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:55,756 Speaker 2: And one of the things about you know, sort of 122 00:07:55,796 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 2: pre germ theory ideas about disease is they were pretty effective. Right. 123 00:08:01,956 --> 00:08:04,076 Speaker 1: Oh, the plague comes to town and there's a miasma 124 00:08:04,076 --> 00:08:06,356 Speaker 1: in the air. Better get out of town. And if 125 00:08:06,396 --> 00:08:08,356 Speaker 1: you get out of town and get away from the miasma, 126 00:08:08,796 --> 00:08:11,836 Speaker 1: you want get the plague. Like it's not I mean, 127 00:08:11,836 --> 00:08:14,716 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of wrong, but like, yeah, it's in miasthma, 128 00:08:14,756 --> 00:08:17,516 Speaker 1: but what's really in the miasthma is bacteria. Like that's 129 00:08:17,556 --> 00:08:18,756 Speaker 1: a better articulation. 130 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:21,156 Speaker 2: But that's right, I mean, you know, and the miasma 131 00:08:21,476 --> 00:08:24,156 Speaker 2: explains why a bunch of people in the same place 132 00:08:24,196 --> 00:08:26,956 Speaker 2: get the disease. You don't need to have the idea 133 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:30,436 Speaker 2: that there's something jumping between bodies that do that, or 134 00:08:30,756 --> 00:08:32,356 Speaker 2: or you can even you know, like modify it a 135 00:08:32,356 --> 00:08:34,836 Speaker 2: little bit and say, well, you know you get sick 136 00:08:34,876 --> 00:08:37,996 Speaker 2: because of bad air, then you the sickness produces bad 137 00:08:38,036 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 2: air in your own body and you exhale, and that. 138 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:43,676 Speaker 1: Not so far off right, not so far. 139 00:08:43,956 --> 00:08:47,996 Speaker 2: You know, that's one of the issues. And and you 140 00:08:48,036 --> 00:08:50,156 Speaker 2: know you have to to replace it. You have to 141 00:08:50,236 --> 00:08:54,036 Speaker 2: be able to see that you could have you know 142 00:08:54,076 --> 00:08:56,356 Speaker 2: that you have to be able to see an alternat explanation. 143 00:08:56,796 --> 00:08:59,036 Speaker 2: And what happened and you know this is this is 144 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:03,276 Speaker 2: not conjecture. What really happened is people lost interest in microscopy. 145 00:09:03,356 --> 00:09:06,476 Speaker 2: There was this you know, with Hook's book Micrographia, and 146 00:09:06,516 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 2: then Levin Hook's you know, endless stream of letters going 147 00:09:09,116 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 2: the Royal Society. There was a sort of burst of 148 00:09:11,516 --> 00:09:13,916 Speaker 2: interest among you know, if you think it, sort of 149 00:09:15,156 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 2: well off gentlemen, amateurs buying themselves microscopes, often buying sort 150 00:09:21,076 --> 00:09:23,116 Speaker 2: of sets of slides. This is in the sixteen eighties 151 00:09:23,116 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 2: and nineties. It's happening very very early on. 152 00:09:25,556 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 1: So you're saying microscopy is a fad, exactly, And by 153 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: the sixty nineties Hook is lamenting that the fad has 154 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 1: already passed and no one's really interested. 155 00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:41,996 Speaker 2: If you don't see microbes as anything other than curiosities 156 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:46,036 Speaker 2: confined to their own domain, it's very hard to imagine 157 00:09:46,036 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 2: that they are, you know, the agents of the single 158 00:09:49,716 --> 00:09:53,156 Speaker 2: most potent cause of death in human beings, I mean, 159 00:09:53,156 --> 00:09:57,036 Speaker 2: infectious disease through history is what has generally killed us, right, 160 00:09:58,236 --> 00:10:00,796 Speaker 2: And you know, that's a really big thing to explain, 161 00:10:00,916 --> 00:10:03,556 Speaker 2: and it was a great leap, a very difficult leap, 162 00:10:03,876 --> 00:10:06,036 Speaker 2: to say, these funny, little wriggling things you can see 163 00:10:06,116 --> 00:10:10,516 Speaker 2: under a microscope might be the the agents of that 164 00:10:10,916 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 2: enormously potent and terrifying force. 165 00:10:14,796 --> 00:10:19,956 Speaker 1: So okay, so the microscope fad goes away, people stop 166 00:10:20,076 --> 00:10:28,436 Speaker 1: caring about and immaculate these tiny creatures, and we get 167 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:32,036 Speaker 1: to this point in the eighteen hundreds where we're not 168 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:34,596 Speaker 1: to germ theory at people aren't actually figuring it out, 169 00:10:34,756 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 1: but they're getting better at understanding how infectious disease works. Right, 170 00:10:40,196 --> 00:10:44,196 Speaker 1: And you talk about a few different people here. I mean, 171 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:49,196 Speaker 1: there's Florence Nightingale, you know, making sanitation at hospitals a 172 00:10:49,236 --> 00:10:51,636 Speaker 1: thing and reducing the spread of disease that way. There's 173 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 1: John Snow, the guy who figured out that everybody who 174 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:58,276 Speaker 1: drank from this one pump in London basically got cholera 175 00:10:58,556 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 1: or you know, and they took the head off the 176 00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:02,316 Speaker 1: pump and people stopped getting klera. And nobody knows that 177 00:11:02,356 --> 00:11:04,756 Speaker 1: it's germs, but they're getting that there's a mechanism. But 178 00:11:04,756 --> 00:11:06,716 Speaker 1: there's one person in this kind of middle period who 179 00:11:06,716 --> 00:11:09,836 Speaker 1: I want to talk about at some greater length, who 180 00:11:09,796 --> 00:11:12,236 Speaker 1: you're right about. And that's tell me if I'm saying 181 00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 1: it wrong, ignots Themovis. 182 00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:20,276 Speaker 2: All right, Your German is undoubtedly better than. 183 00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: Mine, is better than nobody's. Who is he? Who were 184 00:11:25,676 --> 00:11:27,556 Speaker 1: you gonna call him? Smovis that's what we're gonna say. 185 00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:31,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, so or device. I think they probably both work. 186 00:11:33,356 --> 00:11:40,196 Speaker 2: Simis was a a doctor and uh started his sort 187 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:44,076 Speaker 2: of professional career in Vienna at the at the the 188 00:11:44,076 --> 00:11:50,996 Speaker 2: great hospital there, and he was working in in obstetrics 189 00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:55,116 Speaker 2: and you know, handling childbirth. And he was hired was 190 00:11:55,156 --> 00:12:00,076 Speaker 2: the junior assistant to the boss of the obstetrics service. 191 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:04,676 Speaker 2: And it was at a time when two things were 192 00:12:04,716 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 2: going on. One did there was this critical vital really 193 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:13,396 Speaker 2: you know, sort of overall extremely important and useful development, 194 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:17,476 Speaker 2: an attempt to make medicine more scientific, and the way 195 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 2: to do it was to do pathology basically, to cut 196 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:23,956 Speaker 2: open your mistakes and find out what's wrong. So when 197 00:12:23,996 --> 00:12:26,556 Speaker 2: somebody died, you would dissect them, you perform an autopsy, 198 00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:29,636 Speaker 2: and you would try and both study the sort of 199 00:12:29,636 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 2: body as a whole, but really look for the mechanism, 200 00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 2: you know, what whatever had killed them did inside the body. 201 00:12:36,676 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 2: And this was you know, absolutely vital to the development medicine. 202 00:12:40,116 --> 00:12:45,556 Speaker 2: Led to all kinds of important ideas about the disease 203 00:12:45,636 --> 00:12:50,116 Speaker 2: process and diagnostics and stuff like that, and it created 204 00:12:50,956 --> 00:12:55,716 Speaker 2: in this case a repeated sequence of mechanism by which 205 00:12:55,796 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 2: the doctors of Vienna were killing hundreds and you know, 206 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:05,396 Speaker 2: and then thousands of women in childbirth. So what happened 207 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 2: was that as the use of autopsies to understand what 208 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:17,716 Speaker 2: happened to women who died in childbirth expanded, people would 209 00:13:17,756 --> 00:13:21,396 Speaker 2: do the autopsies, wash their hands, you know, the way 210 00:13:21,436 --> 00:13:23,916 Speaker 2: you and I might, you know, sort of after we've 211 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 2: been cooking, so as what somebody put social handwashing, not 212 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 2: you know, enough for medicine, and then go off and 213 00:13:30,756 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 2: deliver a baby. Right, so whatever they had picked up 214 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:37,356 Speaker 2: from the corpse would be carried. You know, it's like 215 00:13:37,476 --> 00:13:42,916 Speaker 2: it's you can't imagine a better disease vector. And so 216 00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:47,316 Speaker 2: there was a fairly high death rate from this infection. 217 00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 2: What we now know is an infection with actually one 218 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:52,396 Speaker 2: of a few bacteria that was called child bed fever 219 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:56,796 Speaker 2: or prayer pool fever. And up until a critical change 220 00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 2: was made, it wasn't clear that this was done, that 221 00:13:59,676 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 2: this was there was a specific singular mechanism that was 222 00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:06,796 Speaker 2: doing this. Initially there you know, the hospital just accepts 223 00:14:06,796 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 2: women into the you know, they come in and they 224 00:14:08,956 --> 00:14:12,036 Speaker 2: go into one of two wards, but both of the 225 00:14:12,076 --> 00:14:14,436 Speaker 2: wards are served by a mixed staff of doctors and 226 00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:20,396 Speaker 2: midwives and then sort of you know, shortly before some 227 00:14:20,556 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 2: of the ice gets there, that changes, the system changes. 228 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:24,796 Speaker 2: And this is you know, one of the interestings about it, 229 00:14:24,876 --> 00:14:27,396 Speaker 2: this is, you know, this is a social change. There's 230 00:14:27,436 --> 00:14:30,796 Speaker 2: nothing medical about this. They just decide that there's a hierarchy, 231 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:34,116 Speaker 2: and the doctors and medical students work on ward number 232 00:14:34,196 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 2: one and midwives deliver babies in ward number two. And 233 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:40,436 Speaker 2: they would you know, you'd get admitted, you know, on 234 00:14:40,556 --> 00:14:42,516 Speaker 2: Monday you'd go to ward one, and Tuesday you'd go 235 00:14:42,556 --> 00:14:43,836 Speaker 2: to Ward two, and so on. You know, they just 236 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:49,516 Speaker 2: alternated day by day, and very rapidly it became clear 237 00:14:50,036 --> 00:14:52,876 Speaker 2: that it was a deadly risk to end up in 238 00:14:52,916 --> 00:14:54,796 Speaker 2: the hands of the doctors that they had, you know, 239 00:14:55,836 --> 00:15:00,156 Speaker 2: many many times the rate of suffering from purple fever 240 00:15:00,236 --> 00:15:04,516 Speaker 2: and dying of it in the doctor's ward then in 241 00:15:03,276 --> 00:15:08,076 Speaker 2: the midwives ward. The question was why, And you know, 242 00:15:08,156 --> 00:15:09,916 Speaker 2: before some of us got there, they did all kinds 243 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 2: of investigations. Could they be ventilated differently? Was the laundry 244 00:15:13,956 --> 00:15:17,156 Speaker 2: being done differently? They don't look for all these different things, notice, 245 00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:20,996 Speaker 2: not looking at the personnel, just looking at possible external causes. 246 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:25,156 Speaker 2: So the idea that doctors might be killing their patients 247 00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:30,396 Speaker 2: was something that the doctors investigating this issue would find 248 00:15:30,636 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 2: very hard to accept. And we see this over and 249 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:35,516 Speaker 2: over again in the story of child bed fever, So 250 00:15:36,316 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 2: you know that happens. Semmelviz comes along and he is 251 00:15:39,156 --> 00:15:41,716 Speaker 2: now tasked with trying to figure out what drives the difference, 252 00:15:42,516 --> 00:15:47,236 Speaker 2: and he similarly is confused until he goes away for 253 00:15:47,556 --> 00:15:50,796 Speaker 2: a little vacation to Italy, comes back and he finds that, 254 00:15:51,396 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 2: you know, his mentor and somebody who greatly values has 255 00:15:54,796 --> 00:15:58,596 Speaker 2: died with symptoms that are very very similar to the 256 00:15:58,596 --> 00:16:01,716 Speaker 2: symptoms that are killing the mothers who've just given birth, 257 00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 2: this purple fever. And it turns out that this guy 258 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 2: had been doing an autopsy with students of a woman 259 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,596 Speaker 2: who died of this disease, and one of the students 260 00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:16,316 Speaker 2: had cut him with one of the scalpels, and some 261 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:20,356 Speaker 2: ofvice recognized that had to be important, and that something 262 00:16:20,516 --> 00:16:23,476 Speaker 2: passed from the body of the of the cadaver, the 263 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 2: person who the woman who died, into the body of 264 00:16:26,676 --> 00:16:31,356 Speaker 2: his mentor, and he said, aha, you know, the something 265 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 2: happens in the autopsy room that takes the poison that 266 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:37,996 Speaker 2: kills these women and carries it on to the next woman, 267 00:16:38,196 --> 00:16:41,316 Speaker 2: and that something has to be the hands of the 268 00:16:41,356 --> 00:16:44,436 Speaker 2: people doing the autopsy, the doctors and medical students who 269 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:47,956 Speaker 2: are trying to learn from these women what happened. And 270 00:16:47,996 --> 00:16:50,716 Speaker 2: it turns out that what happened is they became you know, 271 00:16:50,756 --> 00:16:56,436 Speaker 2: those those those professional men became disease vectors. And he 272 00:16:56,636 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 2: proved this case. You know, again, he had no idea 273 00:16:58,956 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 2: what it was. His writings make it very clear there's 274 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 2: no specific identification with a bacterium or what have you. 275 00:17:05,116 --> 00:17:09,076 Speaker 2: He just knows that there's something real in the world 276 00:17:09,196 --> 00:17:11,556 Speaker 2: that's making this journey, and he knows how the journey 277 00:17:11,636 --> 00:17:13,996 Speaker 2: is being made. So it says, great, I'm going to 278 00:17:14,996 --> 00:17:21,516 Speaker 2: put a chlorine solution sync between the autopsy room and 279 00:17:21,756 --> 00:17:26,036 Speaker 2: the delivery wards and everybody who does an autopsy has 280 00:17:26,116 --> 00:17:29,676 Speaker 2: to go and wash their hands with this chlorine you know, painful, 281 00:17:29,716 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 2: really chlorine solution. 282 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:33,676 Speaker 1: What does he know about chlorine? Like, why does he 283 00:17:34,076 --> 00:17:34,396 Speaker 1: do that? 284 00:17:35,636 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 2: He knows it's caustic, and he knows it's used for 285 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:43,676 Speaker 2: deep cleaning, and that's basically it. And he says, you know, 286 00:17:43,876 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 2: you have to scrub your hands until the cadaver's smell 287 00:17:47,076 --> 00:17:50,236 Speaker 2: is off you and that turns out to be long 288 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 2: enough to kill the bacteria and very rapidly the doctors 289 00:17:56,076 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 2: and medical students. Ward approaches the same you know, complication 290 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 2: and death rate from purple fever as the midwives, and 291 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:07,796 Speaker 2: you know, while there's a solution. And to me, one 292 00:18:07,836 --> 00:18:10,676 Speaker 2: of the greatest tragedies this book documents is the fact 293 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:14,596 Speaker 2: that this solution was not picked up. It was rejected 294 00:18:15,036 --> 00:18:17,956 Speaker 2: again in part because of this notion that doctor, you know, 295 00:18:17,996 --> 00:18:21,676 Speaker 2: the the implication is clear, up until that point doctors 296 00:18:21,676 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 2: had been killing their patients. Didn't mean to, didn't. 297 00:18:23,876 --> 00:18:28,236 Speaker 1: Want to, I mean, including samulvisis right, like, how does 298 00:18:28,276 --> 00:18:30,676 Speaker 1: he react to figuring this out? 299 00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:35,436 Speaker 2: He's horrified, he says, he is. He recognizes himself as 300 00:18:35,436 --> 00:18:38,516 Speaker 2: somebody who's who's you know, practice Up to that point 301 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:43,676 Speaker 2: he killed, killed women, and he becomes, you know, incredibly 302 00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:47,316 Speaker 2: passionate about not doing that anymore, and so much so 303 00:18:47,516 --> 00:18:50,956 Speaker 2: that he alienates his colleagues. He accuses them of murder, 304 00:18:50,996 --> 00:18:55,156 Speaker 2: which was you know, true but impolitic, and he is 305 00:18:55,236 --> 00:18:57,956 Speaker 2: driven out of Vienna. He goes back to his home 306 00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:01,156 Speaker 2: in Budapest. He sets up the same regimen in the 307 00:19:01,156 --> 00:19:05,676 Speaker 2: hospital he works in Budapest, continues to sort of have 308 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:09,556 Speaker 2: these controversies with colleagues, and finally, you know, he may 309 00:19:09,596 --> 00:19:11,996 Speaker 2: have gone, you know, gotten sort of almost you know, 310 00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:17,356 Speaker 2: clinically paranoid, but his former professional acquaintances and perhaps his 311 00:19:17,436 --> 00:19:22,036 Speaker 2: family sort of conspire to get him locked into an 312 00:19:22,116 --> 00:19:25,796 Speaker 2: insane asylum essentially where early in his stay, very early 313 00:19:25,796 --> 00:19:29,556 Speaker 2: in his state, he's beaten so badly that he develops 314 00:19:29,596 --> 00:19:32,956 Speaker 2: open wounds, and I you know, with this horrible irony 315 00:19:32,996 --> 00:19:36,476 Speaker 2: of history, catches an infection and dies of it. It's 316 00:19:36,476 --> 00:19:39,236 Speaker 2: one of the great sort of you know, the deaths 317 00:19:39,276 --> 00:19:42,196 Speaker 2: of thousands of women who need not have died, maybe 318 00:19:42,716 --> 00:19:46,076 Speaker 2: tens of thousands of women across Europe and the world 319 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:49,356 Speaker 2: more broadly, who need not have died if people had 320 00:19:49,356 --> 00:19:53,836 Speaker 2: just followed Somelevice's procedure, these deaths would continue from you know, 321 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:56,396 Speaker 2: well past the eighteen forties when Civilis figured it out, 322 00:19:57,356 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 2: up until you know, near the end of the century. 323 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:17,596 Speaker 1: Will be back in just a minute. So now we 324 00:20:17,676 --> 00:20:20,836 Speaker 1: get into the second half of the eighteen hundred, second 325 00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:22,636 Speaker 1: half of the nineteenth century, and we're finally going to 326 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:26,156 Speaker 1: crack it right. Pastor comes along he's going to be important. 327 00:20:26,196 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about him more in a minute. 328 00:20:27,876 --> 00:20:33,716 Speaker 1: But the tea guy, it seems, is a country doctor 329 00:20:33,916 --> 00:20:37,876 Speaker 1: basically whose name is Robert Koch. You have a nice 330 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:39,996 Speaker 1: sentence to start your chapter about him. I'm going to 331 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:43,836 Speaker 1: read it. There's very little known about the identity of 332 00:20:43,876 --> 00:20:49,436 Speaker 1: one of the most important bodies in the history of medicine. 333 00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 1: What was it? 334 00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 2: It was an animal, possibly a horse, but it's not 335 00:20:56,716 --> 00:21:01,316 Speaker 2: even that's not known. Almost certainly a domesticated animal that 336 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:05,636 Speaker 2: has died of a then well known but still not 337 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:13,356 Speaker 2: figured out disease called anthrax. And so a local police 338 00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:16,836 Speaker 2: constable finds this animal sort of dead in a hedgerow. 339 00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 1: And where was he, by the way, he. 340 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 2: Was in a you know what was then still part 341 00:21:22,036 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 2: of East Prussia but is now Poland there was an 342 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:28,596 Speaker 2: antrak's outbreak going on in the area at the time. 343 00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:33,676 Speaker 2: Cattle herds were affected by it. 344 00:21:33,916 --> 00:21:37,436 Speaker 1: And people understood that there were outbreaks and that people 345 00:21:37,476 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 1: could get this disease, and that animals could get it. 346 00:21:39,516 --> 00:21:41,676 Speaker 1: And then some fashion it moved back and forth. 347 00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:44,636 Speaker 2: Yes, human beings could get it, especially those who worked 348 00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:49,396 Speaker 2: intimately with animals sheep shearers, for example, were at risk 349 00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:53,196 Speaker 2: of it, this kind of thing. And so this was 350 00:21:53,796 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 2: a couple three days before Christmas. But Cooke took the 351 00:21:56,556 --> 00:22:02,636 Speaker 2: skin or the body, we don't know, and took samples 352 00:22:02,636 --> 00:22:08,076 Speaker 2: from it, including presumably samples in his bloodstream, put them 353 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:16,356 Speaker 2: under a microscope. Saw a characteristic rod like bacterium, and 354 00:22:16,396 --> 00:22:19,756 Speaker 2: his bacterium had been noticed already. It seemed to be 355 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 2: associated with anthrax. But people hadn't made the last I mean, 356 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:26,516 Speaker 2: it was like it wasn't clear if they showed up 357 00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:30,796 Speaker 2: because some other disease process made the animals susceptible to them. 358 00:22:31,196 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 2: It wasn't clear what those bacteria were doing. And Cook 359 00:22:34,876 --> 00:22:39,916 Speaker 2: then did the critical experiment. He identified the bacteria, He 360 00:22:40,036 --> 00:22:42,556 Speaker 2: found a medium he could grow it, and it turned 361 00:22:42,556 --> 00:22:48,956 Speaker 2: out to be the fluid inside catalyzed basically. And he 362 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:52,756 Speaker 2: had his family kept rabbits for food. So what he 363 00:22:52,796 --> 00:22:58,156 Speaker 2: did is he purified a sample of these bacteria and 364 00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:02,436 Speaker 2: he injected it into one of his rabbits, and it 365 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 2: was clear the rabbit got sick. He was able to 366 00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:11,836 Speaker 2: harvest more of the bacteria from its bloodstream, isolate the bacteria, 367 00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 2: grow it in culture, injected into another rabbit, and the 368 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:20,076 Speaker 2: rabbit got sick with the same disease anthrax visibly. And 369 00:23:20,276 --> 00:23:22,156 Speaker 2: after you do that a few times, you keep this 370 00:23:22,316 --> 00:23:25,516 Speaker 2: chain going, you realize that what's causing the disease is 371 00:23:25,556 --> 00:23:26,116 Speaker 2: the bacteria. 372 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:28,796 Speaker 1: So he's just done it. It just happened in this 373 00:23:28,876 --> 00:23:32,716 Speaker 1: little town in mind I pull and some random country 374 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:36,556 Speaker 1: doctor did the thing that nobody did for almost exactly 375 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 1: two hundred years. Right, this is December eighteen seventy five, 376 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety nine years after Anthony even leaven 377 00:23:44,436 --> 00:23:51,916 Speaker 1: Hook right like, why him? Why then? 378 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:54,876 Speaker 2: Well, I think, I mean we talked a little bit 379 00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:59,596 Speaker 2: about prayerble fever. There was a period of you know, 380 00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:02,836 Speaker 2: forty years or so that I called sort of germ 381 00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:06,796 Speaker 2: theory without germs. Yeah, when people start to realize that, yes, 382 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:11,556 Speaker 2: there is something that you know, some physical objects, some 383 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:14,916 Speaker 2: material little piece of the world that has to be 384 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 2: involved in these process and they find this out through 385 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:20,716 Speaker 2: a number of different mechanisms, Partly you know Florence Nightingale's 386 00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 2: you know, emphasis on hygiene, you just keep filth away 387 00:24:24,396 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 2: from people. Well, that implies there's something in the filth 388 00:24:26,796 --> 00:24:28,196 Speaker 2: that does does the damage. 389 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:32,236 Speaker 1: We haven't talked about pasteur yet, right, but clearly here 390 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 1: and again, you know, the big demonstration of this you 391 00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:38,196 Speaker 1: mentioned John Snow who recognized that there. 392 00:24:38,076 --> 00:24:41,516 Speaker 2: Was something in you know, some specific thing in contaminated 393 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:45,156 Speaker 2: water that reliably produced color and those who consumed it. 394 00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 2: And he demonstrated this not just with the pump. He did, 395 00:24:47,556 --> 00:24:49,156 Speaker 2: you know, a whole bunch of different kinds of work. 396 00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:52,916 Speaker 2: He showed it on on sort of citywide epidemiological scales. 397 00:24:52,956 --> 00:24:55,716 Speaker 2: He proved it more than once with sort of individual 398 00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:59,436 Speaker 2: locations where that had clearly been the source of a 399 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 2: local outbreak. Again, he had no idea what the thing was, 400 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:07,636 Speaker 2: but he knew there was a thing, and you could 401 00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 2: interrupt its journey, you could stop it, and then people 402 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:14,516 Speaker 2: wouldn't get sick. So the ground was finally being prepared. 403 00:25:15,596 --> 00:25:17,796 Speaker 2: You know, remember at the beginning of this conversation we said, 404 00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 2: you need both the worldview that allows you to recognize 405 00:25:21,436 --> 00:25:25,276 Speaker 2: that something might be possible, like it's possible bacteria could 406 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 2: harm us, but you also need a problem that the 407 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 2: existing theory can't explain. And that's what this germ theory 408 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:37,276 Speaker 2: without germs sort of period was all about coming up with. 409 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:40,116 Speaker 2: You know, Okay, if cholor is caused by a material thing, 410 00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:42,996 Speaker 2: what is it. You know, a carepool disease, child bed fever, 411 00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:47,836 Speaker 2: travels from patient to patient, you know, as some guck 412 00:25:48,076 --> 00:25:50,796 Speaker 2: on a doctor's hands. What's in the guck? You know, 413 00:25:50,836 --> 00:25:54,196 Speaker 2: these kinds of things set up the final step that 414 00:25:54,236 --> 00:25:58,436 Speaker 2: Coke took brilliantly. You know, well that thing is this 415 00:25:58,676 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 2: micro and you know, the critical thing that really cemented 416 00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 2: germ theory was not just Coke's experiment, but the quite 417 00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:12,516 Speaker 2: rapid recovery of other bacteria that cause their own specific 418 00:26:12,556 --> 00:26:15,516 Speaker 2: diseases of both animals and people. But if you have 419 00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:20,836 Speaker 2: disease after disease after disease in rapid succession shown to 420 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:24,996 Speaker 2: be driven by these very specific living pathogens, then all 421 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:27,756 Speaker 2: of a sudden you have not just an example, you 422 00:26:27,916 --> 00:26:31,356 Speaker 2: have a theory. You have a broadly explanatory idea. 423 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 1: So now now that the world has this theory and 424 00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:41,676 Speaker 1: everybody believes him, unlike with zemmolweis right, good things start 425 00:26:41,716 --> 00:26:46,756 Speaker 1: happening right for human health. And I feel like here 426 00:26:46,796 --> 00:26:48,876 Speaker 1: we should talk about Pastor. So let's talk tell me 427 00:26:48,876 --> 00:26:49,436 Speaker 1: about Pastor. 428 00:26:50,036 --> 00:26:51,836 Speaker 2: Well, past here is one of the people who really 429 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:55,996 Speaker 2: gets sort of the modern germ theory h era going. 430 00:26:56,596 --> 00:27:03,036 Speaker 2: Once Coke shows that Anthrax is a bacterial disease. Pasture 431 00:27:03,276 --> 00:27:07,036 Speaker 2: basically sees Coke as having jumped in on his field. 432 00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 2: In some ways, there's a real rivalry the development gene 433 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 2: the two men, but he recognizes the power of the idea, 434 00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 2: and he has two things. He tries to identify other 435 00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:19,556 Speaker 2: disease agents as coc had done, But most importantly, he 436 00:27:19,636 --> 00:27:23,836 Speaker 2: really kicks off the modern age of vaccination. He works 437 00:27:23,836 --> 00:27:28,796 Speaker 2: on and achieves amazingly a vaccine for anthrax. Within a 438 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:34,836 Speaker 2: very short order, Pastor's lab is churning out anthrax vaccines 439 00:27:34,996 --> 00:27:38,716 Speaker 2: enough to, you know, within months, inoculate tens of thousands 440 00:27:38,716 --> 00:27:41,476 Speaker 2: of animals. And he does the same for other diseases. 441 00:27:41,676 --> 00:27:46,076 Speaker 1: Right, So, until this point, there was one vaccine, right 442 00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:49,876 Speaker 1: famously for smallpox, which was kind of a lucky break, right, Like, yeah, exactly, 443 00:27:49,916 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 1: Kantor noticed that people who worked with cows didn't get 444 00:27:52,436 --> 00:27:54,476 Speaker 1: smallpox and sort of put together that you could give 445 00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 1: somebody cow pox basically and they wouldn't get small pox. 446 00:27:57,556 --> 00:27:59,156 Speaker 1: But it was a one off and that was all 447 00:27:59,196 --> 00:28:02,076 Speaker 1: we had, right, And now we have germ theory, and 448 00:28:02,876 --> 00:28:06,116 Speaker 1: Pastor has created like a vaccine factory basically, right, he's 449 00:28:06,156 --> 00:28:08,356 Speaker 1: making one after another because of the power of this 450 00:28:08,436 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 1: theory now because of right inside. 451 00:28:10,076 --> 00:28:13,556 Speaker 2: It, and people recognize that pasture has invented not just 452 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:15,756 Speaker 2: a singular vaccine, but a method. You know. There's an 453 00:28:15,836 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 2: article in The New York Times basically said, you know, 454 00:28:19,276 --> 00:28:24,276 Speaker 2: the expectation is that every infectious disease, every disease organism 455 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:28,916 Speaker 2: will have a vaccine associated with it, will be able 456 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:33,316 Speaker 2: to control infectious disease basically, you know, for the first 457 00:28:33,356 --> 00:28:35,076 Speaker 2: time ever, and human beings won't have to die of 458 00:28:35,116 --> 00:28:39,796 Speaker 2: these terrible things. Yes, and they were not entirely right, 459 00:28:39,956 --> 00:28:44,996 Speaker 2: but there are vaccines for you know, measles and tetanus 460 00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:48,556 Speaker 2: and theory and whooping cough protests. And this is a 461 00:28:48,596 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 2: direct result of germ theory and of you know, past 462 00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 2: year's early work and. 463 00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 1: Coax and and as is like not that long after that, 464 00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:57,436 Speaker 1: it forty years after that or something fifty years after 465 00:28:57,476 --> 00:29:01,356 Speaker 1: that that we get antibiotics. Right, the last big great 466 00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:05,036 Speaker 1: tool that is comes to us because of right term theory, 467 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:06,916 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's I mean, that's obviously not a 468 00:29:06,956 --> 00:29:09,636 Speaker 1: magic bullet. Nothing as a magic bullet, never call anything 469 00:29:09,636 --> 00:29:13,316 Speaker 1: a magic bullet. But it's a very good bullet, like antibiotics, 470 00:29:13,316 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 1: it's still antibotic because it's whatever. They are incredible bullets. 471 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:19,316 Speaker 2: Oh, it's it's utterly transformative. 472 00:29:19,396 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean vaccines. 473 00:29:21,196 --> 00:29:24,676 Speaker 2: You put vaccines and antibiotics together, and it's really true. 474 00:29:24,716 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 2: You know, in nineteen hundred, the top several leading causes 475 00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:32,516 Speaker 2: of death were all one form of infectious disease, disease 476 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:37,676 Speaker 2: or another. The you know, by the latter half of 477 00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:42,396 Speaker 2: the twentieth century and certainly by the end of twentieth century, 478 00:29:43,476 --> 00:29:46,076 Speaker 2: you know, infectious diseases don't make a dent. It's heart 479 00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:49,316 Speaker 2: disease and cancer and auto accidents. 480 00:29:49,476 --> 00:29:51,476 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like a lot of the to 481 00:29:51,516 --> 00:29:53,476 Speaker 1: the extent people talk about this stuff now, they talk 482 00:29:53,476 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 1: about antibiotic resistance and vaccine hesitancy or anti vaccines whatever, 483 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:04,236 Speaker 1: and like those seem like very valid causes of concern. 484 00:30:04,716 --> 00:30:08,396 Speaker 1: And yet when you zoom out to the historical kind 485 00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 1: of dimensions we've been talking about, like we're still doing 486 00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:16,436 Speaker 1: great by historical standards with respect to infectious disease. We are. 487 00:30:16,476 --> 00:30:18,876 Speaker 2: And the question is, I mean the question I think 488 00:30:20,516 --> 00:30:24,956 Speaker 2: that keeps me up at night. Is that condition going 489 00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:27,276 Speaker 2: to remain in place or are the fact that it's 490 00:30:27,756 --> 00:30:29,716 Speaker 2: you know that as a matter of the way we 491 00:30:29,756 --> 00:30:33,356 Speaker 2: have used and developed antibiotics sort of running out of 492 00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:36,196 Speaker 2: steam and leaving us in a position where they will 493 00:30:36,196 --> 00:30:40,756 Speaker 2: be less and less effective. That already seems to be happening. 494 00:30:40,876 --> 00:30:44,356 Speaker 2: And of course, if you have a pandemic disease, the 495 00:30:44,436 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 2: idea that one of our chief weapons against it might 496 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:51,036 Speaker 2: not be as effective is really kind of scary. And 497 00:30:51,076 --> 00:30:55,596 Speaker 2: that's even more true of vaccines. It wasn't that long ago. 498 00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:59,636 Speaker 2: We've only had the sort of vaccines for the childhood's 499 00:30:59,716 --> 00:31:03,876 Speaker 2: you know, the common suite of childhood diseases since beginning 500 00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:05,796 Speaker 2: in the nineties, really beginning of the nineteen fifties and 501 00:31:05,796 --> 00:31:09,276 Speaker 2: then accelerating in the nineteen sixties. And you know, you know, 502 00:31:10,316 --> 00:31:12,676 Speaker 2: the measles vaccine, for example, comes in and is licensed 503 00:31:12,716 --> 00:31:16,756 Speaker 2: in the US nineteen sixty three. There are plenty of doctors, 504 00:31:17,116 --> 00:31:21,876 Speaker 2: you know, pediatricians who trained in the intervening decades, who 505 00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:25,756 Speaker 2: have never seen a case of measles. We've forgotten how 506 00:31:25,836 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 2: miserable a disease it is, even if it doesn't kill you, 507 00:31:28,476 --> 00:31:33,836 Speaker 2: and it could kill you, and resquandering this enormous life 508 00:31:33,876 --> 00:31:38,396 Speaker 2: saving Promethean gift that that germ theory has given us 509 00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:43,756 Speaker 2: in for reasons, don't I deplore and don't fully understand. 510 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:48,436 Speaker 1: Let's abstract one level, right, There is this question at 511 00:31:48,436 --> 00:31:50,636 Speaker 1: the center of your book, which is why did it 512 00:31:50,676 --> 00:31:54,156 Speaker 1: take so long, hundreds of years from the time humanity 513 00:31:54,236 --> 00:31:58,916 Speaker 1: recognized that bacteria exists till we realize that they cause disease? 514 00:31:59,756 --> 00:32:04,836 Speaker 1: Do you think humanity has gotten better at changing our minds? 515 00:32:07,596 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 2: I see no evidence at all that human nature has 516 00:32:12,116 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 2: fundamentally changed. 517 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,876 Speaker 1: Well, that's the when you say human nature has fundamentally changed, 518 00:32:16,916 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 1: you're loading the diet. 519 00:32:18,676 --> 00:32:19,396 Speaker 2: That's true. 520 00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:23,476 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly the rate of discovery has increased the 521 00:32:23,556 --> 00:32:26,196 Speaker 1: amount of just even just to go back to the 522 00:32:26,276 --> 00:32:30,116 Speaker 1: tools idea, like the sharing information idea, like we're sharing 523 00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:34,196 Speaker 1: information way better, way faster, with way more people. 524 00:32:36,676 --> 00:32:43,276 Speaker 2: I mean, I think we have a better infrastructure of 525 00:32:43,316 --> 00:32:48,196 Speaker 2: knowledge than we used to. But I think because science 526 00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 2: is so complicated and because it matters so much in 527 00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:55,596 Speaker 2: so many of the ways we live, the fact is 528 00:32:55,596 --> 00:32:59,916 Speaker 2: that science has become this kind of political football where 529 00:32:59,956 --> 00:33:05,596 Speaker 2: people you know, use beliefs about certain scientific questions as 530 00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:10,676 Speaker 2: markers of political tribal identity. That doesn't lead you to truth, 531 00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:14,036 Speaker 2: but it's really powerful. And that's where I see a 532 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:16,636 Speaker 2: lot of our problems being right now. Whether that will last, 533 00:33:16,916 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 2: whether we'll be able to grow out of that in 534 00:33:18,556 --> 00:33:21,356 Speaker 2: the next decade or so, I very much hope so. 535 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:24,396 Speaker 2: But we could be going into a sort of know 536 00:33:24,476 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 2: nothing age where we will lose the advantages of germ 537 00:33:27,276 --> 00:33:32,036 Speaker 2: theory and other ideas that have been established painfully by 538 00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:33,836 Speaker 2: decades or centuries of work. 539 00:33:37,836 --> 00:33:39,876 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lake round. 540 00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:54,676 Speaker 1: Let's finish with the lightning round. What's your favorite humor? 541 00:33:55,156 --> 00:33:57,796 Speaker 1: Black bile, yellow bile, phlegm or blood? 542 00:33:58,796 --> 00:34:00,916 Speaker 2: Oh I'm all in on blood. 543 00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:02,916 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, I like the hot. 544 00:34:03,076 --> 00:34:04,076 Speaker 2: I like the hot. 545 00:34:04,396 --> 00:34:06,916 Speaker 1: What's one lesson we should learn from the south Sea Bubble? 546 00:34:09,396 --> 00:34:13,796 Speaker 2: The most important lesson we can learn from the south 547 00:34:13,796 --> 00:34:21,716 Speaker 2: Sea Bubble is that be wary of the trojan horse 548 00:34:22,436 --> 00:34:28,436 Speaker 2: of financial innovation. That is too complicated to explain. So, 549 00:34:28,796 --> 00:34:33,276 Speaker 2: you know, we got hammered in the early two thousands 550 00:34:33,996 --> 00:34:39,956 Speaker 2: by the subprime mortgage catastrophe, and what was really what 551 00:34:39,996 --> 00:34:42,716 Speaker 2: really drove that was a series of you know, newly 552 00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:48,276 Speaker 2: invented financial instruments that radically increased the amount of leverage 553 00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:51,796 Speaker 2: and hence the the size of the catastrophe that would 554 00:34:51,836 --> 00:34:54,276 Speaker 2: follow when, you know, should it all come crashing down. 555 00:34:54,996 --> 00:34:58,556 Speaker 2: And almost everyone dealing in those instruments didn't know what 556 00:34:58,596 --> 00:35:02,796 Speaker 2: they were dealing with. And when that's happening, there will 557 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:05,716 Speaker 2: be some people who figure it out and they'll get rich, 558 00:35:06,276 --> 00:35:08,356 Speaker 2: and the rest of us will pay the price. So 559 00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:11,556 Speaker 2: you know what you're talking about before you put the 560 00:35:11,596 --> 00:35:14,156 Speaker 2: rent money into your financial gamble. 561 00:35:15,036 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: You've written about a very large number of very eminent 562 00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:24,836 Speaker 1: famous scientists, and I'm curious, are there any non obvious 563 00:35:24,876 --> 00:35:26,156 Speaker 1: traits they seem to share. 564 00:35:29,436 --> 00:35:34,876 Speaker 2: I think one of them is what Einstein was famous for, 565 00:35:36,796 --> 00:35:41,516 Speaker 2: which you know, it's a kind of stubbornness. I once 566 00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:44,836 Speaker 2: spoke with with a physicist to knew Einstein well, and 567 00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:46,996 Speaker 2: he said, the difference between him and the rest of 568 00:35:47,076 --> 00:35:51,116 Speaker 2: us wasn't you know, he wasn't better than and in fact, 569 00:35:51,116 --> 00:35:55,116 Speaker 2: it was worse than an awful lot of physicists At mathematics. 570 00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:58,796 Speaker 2: He was really really good at framing a problem, and 571 00:35:58,836 --> 00:36:01,836 Speaker 2: that's actually a common that's a trait that I think, 572 00:36:02,356 --> 00:36:05,756 Speaker 2: you know, great scientists share. But the most important thing 573 00:36:05,836 --> 00:36:10,156 Speaker 2: that this guy who knew Einstein said was the fact 574 00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:13,116 Speaker 2: that he was willing to sit with a problem if 575 00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:14,516 Speaker 2: he thought it was important, he would sit with a 576 00:36:14,516 --> 00:36:18,356 Speaker 2: problem as long as it took so. And most scientists, 577 00:36:18,396 --> 00:36:20,836 Speaker 2: if they can't figure something out after two or three 578 00:36:20,876 --> 00:36:23,396 Speaker 2: years or whatever, say Okay, that one's you know, that 579 00:36:23,396 --> 00:36:25,276 Speaker 2: one's not for me. I'll go find something else to 580 00:36:25,316 --> 00:36:30,516 Speaker 2: think about. Einstein, you know, worked on special relativity, you know, 581 00:36:30,596 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 2: for eight or nine years from the first time he 582 00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:38,156 Speaker 2: thought about the question. General relativity was another decade. He 583 00:36:38,236 --> 00:36:42,716 Speaker 2: wrestled with quantum mechanics or quantum theory basically all his life. 584 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:47,916 Speaker 1: I mean, is there a kind of hindsight bias there? Like, 585 00:36:47,996 --> 00:36:50,356 Speaker 1: are there lots of scientists who are super stubborn and 586 00:36:50,396 --> 00:36:52,396 Speaker 1: wrestle with things for a long time. We just don't 587 00:36:52,396 --> 00:36:54,116 Speaker 1: know who they are because they'd ever been to break 588 00:36:54,116 --> 00:36:54,396 Speaker 1: it through. 589 00:36:54,436 --> 00:36:57,276 Speaker 2: Because I mean, I don't think it's the only thing 590 00:36:57,316 --> 00:37:00,316 Speaker 2: you need, But you asked for a characteristic they share. 591 00:37:00,396 --> 00:37:04,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, it's necessary, but not sufficient, not sufficient. 592 00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:06,316 Speaker 2: I mean, I once had the good fortune to run 593 00:37:06,356 --> 00:37:10,116 Speaker 2: into Jonah Saulk at an airport, right and we ended 594 00:37:10,196 --> 00:37:13,676 Speaker 2: up I recognized him, and I somehow. 595 00:37:13,276 --> 00:37:15,356 Speaker 1: Made the polio vaccine, made. 596 00:37:15,196 --> 00:37:18,276 Speaker 2: The polio vaccine. Yes, and I went up and talked 597 00:37:18,276 --> 00:37:21,876 Speaker 2: to him, and this was you know, in the in 598 00:37:21,956 --> 00:37:24,876 Speaker 2: the eighties, so you know, he did the polio vaccine 599 00:37:24,876 --> 00:37:29,196 Speaker 2: in the fifties. And what was really interesting is the 600 00:37:29,236 --> 00:37:33,236 Speaker 2: same issues, the same questions. I mean, he was really 601 00:37:33,236 --> 00:37:35,436 Speaker 2: interested in the question was, you know, just how do 602 00:37:35,476 --> 00:37:38,396 Speaker 2: you develop vaccines for intractable diseases? And what I met 603 00:37:38,476 --> 00:37:40,796 Speaker 2: him he was working on did not succeed, but working 604 00:37:40,836 --> 00:37:43,956 Speaker 2: on trying to come up with an HIV vaccine. You know, 605 00:37:44,076 --> 00:37:46,556 Speaker 2: this was a man who had, you know, a view 606 00:37:46,556 --> 00:37:49,116 Speaker 2: of the world and a view of his sort of 607 00:37:49,356 --> 00:37:51,836 Speaker 2: corner of the world that led him to focus on 608 00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:56,396 Speaker 2: big issues and stay with him as long as it took, 609 00:37:56,516 --> 00:37:59,316 Speaker 2: or as long as he had And that turns out 610 00:37:59,396 --> 00:38:04,236 Speaker 2: to be something that really really I think, yes, you 611 00:38:04,276 --> 00:38:06,076 Speaker 2: can end up with a with a career that does 612 00:38:06,116 --> 00:38:08,956 Speaker 2: not produce anything because you stayed on the wrong problems 613 00:38:08,996 --> 00:38:11,276 Speaker 2: too long or you know, as Einstein did. You know, 614 00:38:11,316 --> 00:38:13,516 Speaker 2: he was working for the last couple decades of his life, 615 00:38:13,516 --> 00:38:16,276 Speaker 2: three decades of his life on a problem for which 616 00:38:16,316 --> 00:38:19,596 Speaker 2: the tools were not yet there to really address seriously, 617 00:38:19,676 --> 00:38:22,476 Speaker 2: mathematical tools and the observational tools that would have helped 618 00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:26,676 Speaker 2: him to try and generalize from the existing theories. You 619 00:38:26,716 --> 00:38:30,196 Speaker 2: know he was premature on that's all right. He got 620 00:38:30,236 --> 00:38:31,316 Speaker 2: a bunch of other things. 621 00:38:31,156 --> 00:38:33,396 Speaker 1: Right, Thank you for your time. 622 00:38:33,556 --> 00:38:36,076 Speaker 2: Well, it's a pleasure. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. 623 00:38:43,076 --> 00:38:46,116 Speaker 1: Tom Levinson is the author of the book So Very Small, 624 00:38:46,516 --> 00:38:49,316 Speaker 1: and he's also a professor of science writing at MIT. 625 00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:54,076 Speaker 1: Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We 626 00:38:54,116 --> 00:38:57,876 Speaker 1: are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's 627 00:38:57,876 --> 00:39:01,756 Speaker 1: show was produced by Trinomanino and Gabriel Hunter Chang, who 628 00:39:01,836 --> 00:39:05,756 Speaker 1: was edited by Alexander Garretton and engineered by Sarah Brugeret. 629 00:39:06,076 --> 00:39:08,196 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with 630 00:39:08,236 --> 00:39:09,676 Speaker 1: another episode of Mine, What's Your Mother?