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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.

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Speaker 1: There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry and this is

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Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know, Part two about animals rare sweet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: good one. And you wrote this for your buddies at

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Speaker 1: Primer Yeah. Yeah, let's give a little shout out to

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Speaker 1: Primer Stories. Um So, Primer Stories are basically doing for

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Speaker 1: uh the interactive medium, the same thing that podcast did

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Speaker 1: for radio and Ted Talks did for speaking engagements. And

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Speaker 1: I wrote an essay for him for season four and

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Speaker 1: you can check it out at Primer Stories dot com

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Speaker 1: slash s y s K go go check it out.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty neat, but it ties into animal rights and

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Speaker 1: uh humans. But you you did put this together, right.

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Speaker 1: I've put together this episode and then I wrote a

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Speaker 1: separate essay based on my research that, um is, it's different. Nice.

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Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark and I did my book report on Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Luckily the primary dudes, Joe and Tim kept it from

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Speaker 1: devolving into that. Well, this was fantastic. I just want

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Speaker 1: to say that, thanks man, I appreciate it. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: I guess we don't need to set anything up. If

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Speaker 1: you haven't listened to the one on animal testing, yes,

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Speaker 1: stop right here, Yeah, just go do that and then

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Speaker 1: welcome to part two. Yeah, how awkward was that? I

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Speaker 1: thought it was pretty succinct. Okay, not awkward. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your buddy Aristotle. So Aristotle,

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Speaker 1: we mentioned him in the last episode. We're gonna say

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Speaker 1: that a lot. But Aristotle was one of the first

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Speaker 1: dudes to experiment on animals. I think I called him

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Speaker 1: a big dummy, you did, and as a joke, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, no, he's fine. Yeah he Uh. He was

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Speaker 1: a smart dude, he was. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: that he did not only um experimenting on animals, he

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Speaker 1: also came up with a hierarchy of animals based on

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Speaker 1: the souls he anticipated each possessed. He said, kitty got

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Speaker 1: pretty good, dog much better? What is that? Is he? Checkoslovakia?

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Speaker 1: I have no idea, No, I guess it'll just be

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Speaker 1: check now. Yeah, I don't know what that was unless

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Speaker 1: he's from like the fifties. It was It was not

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Speaker 1: Greco Roman? Uh, maybe Albanian. Okay, So Aristotle the Albanian

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Speaker 1: comes up with this hierarchy UM. And at the top

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Speaker 1: of the hierarchy, guess who humans And humans have all

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Speaker 1: three kinds of souls, the vegetative soul, the sensitive soul,

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Speaker 1: and the rational soul. We possess all three of those souls. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: we're at the top of the hierarchy of all the

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Speaker 1: organisms on planet Earth. Below us are animals, and they've

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Speaker 1: got the first two. They've got the vegetative soul and

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Speaker 1: the sensitive soul, which means that like they like to

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Speaker 1: lay around and read UM romance novels, that's right. And

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Speaker 1: then you've got plants, and plants obviously have the vegetative soul.

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Speaker 1: So what he's describing are the different um I guess

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Speaker 1: life forces that he expected UM organisms to have. And

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Speaker 1: because of that, there was a hierarchy that was established.

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Speaker 1: And because of that hierarchy that Aristotle came up with,

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Speaker 1: we still view animals in a certain way today, like

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Speaker 1: we still basically follow that same hierarchy that he made,

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Speaker 1: uh hundred years ago or so. Yeah, And and the

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Speaker 1: whole kind of point of this episode is kind of

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Speaker 1: based on that whether or not animals have a soul

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Speaker 1: and where they rank or maybe should rank, and UM

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Speaker 1: it's sort of that's sort of going down the rabbit

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Speaker 1: hole myself of what a soul is and human even Well,

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Speaker 1: you're not the first to do that, of course, Um,

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Speaker 1: would you come up with? Would you come up with?

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Speaker 1: Everyone wants to hear, including me and Jerry? Nah, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm still struggling with what I believe,

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Speaker 1: even at my advanced stage, and I think I will

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Speaker 1: till the day I die and become worm dirt. Right.

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Speaker 1: So that's one indication of what I believe. Your last

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Speaker 1: words are oh no, Um, But that that idea whether

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Speaker 1: or not animals do have a souls is nothing new. Um.

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Speaker 1: You point out very astutely that, Um, Judeo Christian wise,

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Speaker 1: they do not think that animals have souls and have

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Speaker 1: long held kind of a brutal attitude toward animals, like,

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Speaker 1: forget animals, just kick them in the face. I don't care.

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Speaker 1: That's a little harsh. But um, there the idea that

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Speaker 1: humans have dominion over animals very much a part of

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Speaker 1: the Judeo Christian ethic. Yeah, and should have dominion yea.

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Speaker 1: And that animals don't have souls, and that's reason what's

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Speaker 1: one reason why humans have dominion. That's right. It turns

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Speaker 1: out the Mormons actually are one of the few groups

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Speaker 1: in the West religiously speaking, that do believe that animals

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Speaker 1: survive into the afterlife. Mormons and then um seeks Muslims, Hindus,

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Speaker 1: big time Hindus, and Jane's Jainists. Um. They believe that

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Speaker 1: the best way to to um save your soul is

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Speaker 1: to protect other souls. So like you'll see a jainistum

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Speaker 1: with a little they they have little brooms and they'll

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Speaker 1: like wipe down or they'll they'll brush off a seat

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Speaker 1: before they sit on it because they don't want to

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Speaker 1: accidentally sit on any bug and take its life. Well

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Speaker 1: that's nice, that's uh. That's protection of other souls for sure.

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Speaker 1: Not like the cockroach, right, they'll still kill a kukara.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, I had a funny cockroach that incident last night.

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Speaker 1: Like I laugh, belly laughed for ten minutes. What did

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Speaker 1: the cock roads laugh? Well, there was a cockroach in

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Speaker 1: the room at some point that got away and um.

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Speaker 1: Later on that night, Emily and I were in bed

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Speaker 1: and I was on my computer and she was reading

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Speaker 1: or something, and she looked up and on the ceiling

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Speaker 1: it was right above her and she, oh, there's that cockroach,

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Speaker 1: which I was shocked that she was that lazy fair

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Speaker 1: about it. I went, why are you not freaking out?

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Speaker 1: I was like, that thing's about to fall on you?

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Speaker 1: And right when I said you, he moved and fell

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Speaker 1: right on her. And it's so funny, like she's she

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Speaker 1: shrieked like a small child and jumped off the bed

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Speaker 1: quicker than I've ever seen her move. She scared my dogs.

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Speaker 1: I jumped and ran, but I didn't shriek, which I

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Speaker 1: just thought was very interesting dichotomy. Um and I killed it.

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Speaker 1: And it was just very very funny that she was

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Speaker 1: just like, oh, there's that cockroach, Like who are you?

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Speaker 1: You're not the Emily I know exactly, Like why aren't

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Speaker 1: you running? And she's super tired or something she was,

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just very strange. I think she learned

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Speaker 1: the lesson that a cockroach on the ceiling is not

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Speaker 1: on the ceiling for long means you roll out of bed, yeah, immediately.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, that's my cocorad story. Uh. Judaism they believe that,

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Speaker 1: um well, it's a lot of debating in the Jewish community.

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Speaker 1: Some scholars say that they do have souls. Yeah, lately

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Speaker 1: they've been saying that, but only here while they're alive,

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Speaker 1: and they don't carry into the afterlife. Big work around. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh it is Uh. Pope John Paul the Second said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you probably you you probably are going to see your

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Speaker 1: your little dog in the afterlife. Maybe it's possible. I'm

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Speaker 1: Pope John Paul. Everybody loves me. Would you like my autograph? Right? Me?

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Speaker 1: Gorby and Ronald Reagan rule the world? Uh. During the Enlightenment,

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Speaker 1: things change a little bit from the religious aspects to

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Speaker 1: more of a uh science based or philosophical and our

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Speaker 1: old buddy Descartes said animals have no internal experience, which

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Speaker 1: is very cold way of putting it. Yeah, he called

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Speaker 1: them automatons kind of famously actually, and he said that, um,

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Speaker 1: they are capable of ex of responding to pain, but

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Speaker 1: because they don't have any internal experience, they can't actually

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Speaker 1: experience the pain. Therefore, when you, um are cutting open

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Speaker 1: a live dog and you're seeing it squirm and and

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Speaker 1: wrythe and agony strictly responding to a stimulus, it's not

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Speaker 1: actually going on. Like when Lucas testing out his new

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Speaker 1: hand and he's poking the like the different nerves or

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Speaker 1: the artificial nerves or whatever making the fingers move. He's

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Speaker 1: getting poked on the finger, but he doesn't feel that.

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Speaker 1: It's just a response to a stimuli. Yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: very much like that. It's the same thing as like

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Speaker 1: with robots too. Yeah. I mean that's that's how essentially

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Speaker 1: they cart decreed that animals were And that's some thing

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Speaker 1: that stuck out to me, like throughout researching this whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Humans have long just decreed that things are a certain way,

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Speaker 1: and that those decrees tend to fit whatever the human

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Speaker 1: wants to do to an animal at that time of course, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that idea is sort of the basis was and still

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Speaker 1: kind of is for for scientists who experiment on animals.

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Speaker 1: They're trained to um to detach themselves emotionally and just say, no,

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Speaker 1: this is just a stimuli reaction. This is not an

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Speaker 1: animal that's actually feeling pain. Dogs don't have that. Dogs

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Speaker 1: don't have internal experience or internal lives, so you can't really,

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Speaker 1: I can't really feel pain or suffering. It's not true. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Jeremy Bentham was a philosopher in England. Correct, Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: big one and actually he's still around. They bring his

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Speaker 1: mummified body out for um dinners of the the guys

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Speaker 1: who run the college what, every once a year, and

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Speaker 1: he sits at the head of the table and his

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Speaker 1: head has actually been separated from his body, and they

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Speaker 1: bring that out too. It's in a case. It's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: Holy cow. Yeah, as far as philosophers go, it's pretty neat.

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Speaker 1: So he had a pretty neat idea, which was, um,

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Speaker 1: you know what, it's not just about whether you can

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Speaker 1: reason with an animal, but can they suffer? He's he's

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Speaker 1: the one that kind of brought about this idea of

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Speaker 1: animals suffering in the same way that a human might,

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Speaker 1: which is a huge change. It was a big sea

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Speaker 1: change in the way that we saw animals, because up

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Speaker 1: to that point, the idea was that animals couldn't suffer,

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Speaker 1: and even if they could suffer, nobody was taking that

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Speaker 1: into account. But they couldn't suffer because they couldn't talk

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Speaker 1: or they couldn't rationalize. And he said, no, we I

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Speaker 1: think they can suffer. And he used his um philosific calculus,

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Speaker 1: which takes into account all of the suffering and all

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Speaker 1: of the happiness or pleasure produced by an event and

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Speaker 1: you weighed against one another and it's really involved. Actually,

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Speaker 1: but if you carry out Bentham's calculations, uh, you can

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Speaker 1: take any any event, any action, and determine whether it's

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Speaker 1: ethically like, morally correct or morally repugnant. And uh, he

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Speaker 1: came to the conclusion that experimenting on animals was morally

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Speaker 1: repugnant because animal suffering wasn't taken into account. And he

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Speaker 1: took it into account, and it wasn't just a one

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Speaker 1: off where he wrote an essay about it like this

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Speaker 1: is a well he went back to a lot and

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Speaker 1: was kind of an agitator for animal welfare early on. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of money in it, right. Uh So

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Speaker 1: moving on to and I think you make a very

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Speaker 1: good point here that the protectionism for animals really starts

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Speaker 1: around the time where we made the transition um in

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Speaker 1: in farming and how we raised in eight animals. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you sue like you be like I feel like

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Speaker 1: some beef for dinner. I'm gonna go kill old Bessie

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Speaker 1: r Cow. Yeah, And you love Bessie, and your little

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Speaker 1: boy or a little girl might cry about Bessie, but

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Speaker 1: then the parents would explain that you know, We raised Bessie,

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Speaker 1: and we loved and cared for Bessie, treated Bessie very nicely. UM.

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Speaker 1: And the reason Bessie is here so Bessie can eventually

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Speaker 1: feed us, and we should um honor that in every

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Speaker 1: way possible by using as much of this animal as

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Speaker 1: we can and honor the life that she led. You know,

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Speaker 1: or if you had a bad parent, they just kind

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Speaker 1: of wheeled that cleaver in your direction and shut up

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Speaker 1: just as fast. This could be you. But that was

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Speaker 1: a huge sea change when things started to change and

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Speaker 1: industrialization took off, UH, and people were no longer connected

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Speaker 1: to the animal on their farm that they ate. It

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Speaker 1: was a sea change and how people I mean it

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Speaker 1: directly coincided with how people felt about animals. When you

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Speaker 1: could buy something in the store that looked nothing like

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Speaker 1: that animal. Yeah, it's not even called pig, it's called

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Speaker 1: pork or bacon or ham. Um. And then not only

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Speaker 1: that chuck something I left out here that came across later. Um.

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Speaker 1: This is at the same time when people move from

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Speaker 1: the farm to the factory, from rural um in interactions

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Speaker 1: with animals to UH to urban settings without animals. This

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Speaker 1: is when people started to keep pets. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I never realized what you just said there about pork

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Speaker 1: and beef. That never really dawned on me. It's never

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Speaker 1: called pick that. If it said ground cow, right instead

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Speaker 1: of ground beef, people would be like, reveal, yeah, some

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Speaker 1: baby cow, ground baby cow. Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense.

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Speaker 1: And such a dummy that that never occurred to me, Like,

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Speaker 1: is that where that came from? Calling them different names?

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Speaker 1: I would guess veal is probably like Latin for baby

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Speaker 1: calf or something. I don't think it was a purposeful obfuscation.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, would not surprise me. This is before

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Speaker 1: the advent of pr, so I think much more innocent,

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Speaker 1: naive back then. Chicken is but who gives? Who cares

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Speaker 1: about chicken? I was saying that, Um, this is also

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Speaker 1: the time when people began keeping pets around the house,

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Speaker 1: so animals, so we're removed from food production, and we're

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Speaker 1: we were starting to see animals not as commodities but

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Speaker 1: as sweet little things that we want to care for

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Speaker 1: and protect and like give food to and like let's

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Speaker 1: sleep in the bed with us. And it developed this

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Speaker 1: dichotomy of how we view animals today, which is, um,

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Speaker 1: animals are to be protected by humans, but we can

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Speaker 1: also eat them. It's totally cool. Uh. And that's a

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Speaker 1: really if you step back and look at it. It's

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Speaker 1: so easy to take for granted because that's how almost everybody,

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Speaker 1: except for vegans um view animals. It's really easy to

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Speaker 1: take it for granted. But if you step back and

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Speaker 1: look at it, it's a very bizarre contradictory um paradigm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of a deal people have made with themselves mfortually,

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Speaker 1: I think, and society is made with itself too. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come back

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Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about the fact that, as

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Speaker 1: of yet, there were still no laws on the books

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Speaker 1: about protecting animals. All right, before we left, I teased

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Speaker 1: about the laws of the land and while things were

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Speaker 1: changing maybe attitude in le Uh. In England. You point

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Speaker 1: out in the mid nineteenth century, it was still legal

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Speaker 1: to beat your horse to death if he was tired,

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Speaker 1: or to kill your cow if it didn't produce milk.

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Speaker 1: There were no laws in place or like a your

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Speaker 1: dog did something you didn't like, you could kick it

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Speaker 1: to death. Like It's just some people did that. I

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Speaker 1: think some people are still like that today, but are

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Speaker 1: restrained by laws that developed out of this era, out

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Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, and where before there weren't any laws.

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Speaker 1: So if you were in impulsive puts, you could kick

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Speaker 1: a dog to death. You know. I can't even go

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Speaker 1: there with those stories that happened today, but that happened

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Speaker 1: even more then. That's a very important point though, is

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Speaker 1: like society as a whole wasn't just beating horses and

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Speaker 1: dogs to death. UM for the most part, right, I

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Speaker 1: think it was sociopath back then, and I think it

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Speaker 1: still is now, you know. UM, for the most part,

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Speaker 1: people did not do that, and people didn't even like

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Speaker 1: they didn't necessarily even turn a blind eye too it.

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Speaker 1: I think they did more because there wasn't a lot

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Speaker 1: you could do. UM. But it's probably along the lines

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Speaker 1: of where if you, UM don't agree with spanking your kid,

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Speaker 1: and you see somebody in the store like grab their

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Speaker 1: kids and spank them, you might want to say something,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, you probably won't because you

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's a crazy person and or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You don't get involved. For the most part, most people don't.

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Speaker 1: I think that was probably very much the same lines

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Speaker 1: like where you um, you might see something like that happening,

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Speaker 1: but you weren't gonna say anything. I think that was

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Speaker 1: the social status quo at the time. But that said, if, if,

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Speaker 1: if the circumstances were right in the act was particularly egregious,

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Speaker 1: some someone might say something. There was a guy in

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirty four who in the middle of Washington, d c.

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Speaker 1: Beat his cow to death, and he was arrested and

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Speaker 1: charged with um not beating the cow to death because

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Speaker 1: again there was no law protecting that cow, but um

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Speaker 1: with creating a public nuisance because he subjected all the

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Speaker 1: passers by to the site of his cow being beaten

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Speaker 1: to death, and people objected to it. So even even

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Speaker 1: at the time when there wasn't any legal protection for animals,

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Speaker 1: there was still there was a line that was drawn.

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Speaker 1: You know, people weren't cool with it, you know. Interesting, So,

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Speaker 1: legislatively speaking, it was about the turn of the nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century in England when Lords Erskine and Morton got together

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Speaker 1: and they a bunch of times to try and actually

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Speaker 1: amend the code, the legal code and UH. One of

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Speaker 1: the first things they tried to outlaw with something called

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Speaker 1: bull baiting UH and I imagine bear baiting, which was

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Speaker 1: also a thing. And we'll get to this in a second,

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Speaker 1: but it's like Roman gladiator stuff. Yeah. It's when they

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Speaker 1: put a bull or a bear and they chain them

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Speaker 1: to a steak and a pit. Yeah, and put dogs

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Speaker 1: in there to fight and kill. Yeah. And bulldogs used

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Speaker 1: to be way, way more vicious and aggressive than they

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Speaker 1: are today. They actually had that stuff bred out of

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Speaker 1: them and they looked a lot different to um. But

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Speaker 1: that's where they got their name from. Bulldogs. Bear baiting

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Speaker 1: is still going on in Pakistan. Yeah, it's it's disgusting,

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Speaker 1: it's um there's a big push to stop it now.

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Speaker 1: There's a group called World Animal Protection International and that's

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Speaker 1: one of their big causes is to stop bear baiting

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Speaker 1: in Pakistan. But UM, I would encourage you not to

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Speaker 1: look that up and and look at pictures and stuff

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Speaker 1: un once you want your heartbroken. But um, it's amazing

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Speaker 1: that in s that's still going on in the world

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Speaker 1: at all. But it is uh and then Uh Martin

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Speaker 1: and Uh Martin and Erskin the great comedy duo was

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Speaker 1: going to say, too, what is it is? Because of

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Speaker 1: Martin Rohan and Martin is that where I'm thinking Uh,

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Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty two they actually were enabled to get

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Speaker 1: the first law pass in the West that made it

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Speaker 1: a criminal act to abuse animals, called Martin's Act after

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Speaker 1: Martin and Uh it was the technical name was an

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Speaker 1: act to prevent the cruel and improper treatment of battle

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Speaker 1: and it was specifically for livestock. And it was a

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Speaker 1: ten shilling fine three months in the pokey if you

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Speaker 1: didn't pay the fine. But what it did was set

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Speaker 1: a precedent for the future. It was very important it did.

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Speaker 1: It was only there was a law, right, there was

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Speaker 1: a law in the books protecting animals. And again, like

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Speaker 1: you said, it was pretty specific and technically there have

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Speaker 1: been a law in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. The Puritans

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Speaker 1: had a law in their Body of Liberties, but apparently

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Speaker 1: it wasn't ever enforced. But this is the first real law. UM.

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Speaker 1: And UH. The fact that Parliament was responding to this

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Speaker 1: um kind of aroused the public. Uh. We talked about

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Speaker 1: in the animal animal Testing episode the last one. UM.

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Speaker 1: How I think in eight seventy six there was a

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Speaker 1: law that passed that was passed like protecting animals during

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Speaker 1: experimentation thanks to Charles Darwin Um, that that came fifty

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Speaker 1: years after the first animal protection laws in the UK.

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Speaker 1: So they've been there have been niche people. Groups who

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Speaker 1: had been agitating for this got actually the parliament involved,

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Speaker 1: and then the public became involved, which is usually the

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Speaker 1: opposite rum. Usually it's like these groups agitate, get the

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Speaker 1: public involved, and then the public get government to do something.

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Speaker 1: This actually kind of went out of order a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But the people who were agitating, these niche people were

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Speaker 1: usually very interesting people like Henry Berg is a really

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Speaker 1: good example. Boy, I love this guy. Yeah, you talked

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Speaker 1: about an agitator. He founded the created the A s

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Speaker 1: p C A, and um, he was a little rich

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Speaker 1: kid and he basically said, you know what, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: kind of dedicate my life too walking the streets because

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Speaker 1: one of the things in eight sixty six when the

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Speaker 1: SPC A SPC I was founded was in New York.

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Speaker 1: They said, you know what, you have the power to

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Speaker 1: go out and police these things. We're not really enforcing it,

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Speaker 1: but you can do so, and great, I'll do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He was a true believer for sure. Um. I think

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Speaker 1: the first instance, as the legend goes, he saw he

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Speaker 1: was a Russian diplomat or a diplomat to Russian American

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Speaker 1: diplomat in Russia. Um, during the reign of the Tsar still,

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Speaker 1: he saw a Russian peasant beating his horse, and he

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Speaker 1: threatened to beat the man, and the guy responded very

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Speaker 1: in in a way that Henry Berg was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do this all the time. Now he

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Speaker 1: was like, I'm so sorry. Apparently the guy started crying

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Speaker 1: he was being talked down to by someone of a

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Speaker 1: higher station. Then when Henry Bird got back to America

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Speaker 1: and tried it, he found that people of the middle

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Speaker 1: or lower classes beneath him socially did not respond the

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Speaker 1: way the Russian peasantry did. They said, this is New York,

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Speaker 1: so he had to kind of So he would um

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Speaker 1: sometimes actually follow through on his threats and like beat

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Speaker 1: people he saw beating their horses. Um, I have no

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Speaker 1: problem with that. Yeah, I think most people didn't. But

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Speaker 1: he would also he'd go and break up like underground

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Speaker 1: bullfight or underground bull baiting that underground bullfight to both

384
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Speaker 1: going a uh. And he is buried in Greenwood Cemetery

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. If you want to go by and uh

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Speaker 1: lay some flowers at his grave and pay your respects.

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Speaker 1: I think I might do that next time in New York. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I mean even if you're not in the animal rights.

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Speaker 1: He was also a huge children's crusader, and he very

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Speaker 1: wisely never allowed, uh, the children's organizations that he funded

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Speaker 1: and supported, to merge with the animal organizations, because he

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Speaker 1: knew full well that the little children would take the

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Speaker 1: wheel and they would very quickly overwhelmed the sentiments in

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Speaker 1: the UM. The efforts on behalf of the animals. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was pretty smart to keep it uh separate.

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Speaker 1: You got to keep them separated. You point out in

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Speaker 1: this article very astutely that um abusing an animal is

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Speaker 1: it could be an indicator of violence toward humans. And

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Speaker 1: I know that. You know, uh a lot of serial

400
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Speaker 1: killers started out like killing animals first as their first try.

401
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Speaker 1: That is, from what I can tell, most likely a

402
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: pop psychology urban legend, what that they did that. Yeah,

403
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Speaker 1: I mean there's Jeffrey Dahmer did for sure. There's okay, yes,

404
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: but that the idea that it's a predictor of future

405
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Speaker 1: serial killing. Oh yeah, yeah. The triad of evil, which

406
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Speaker 1: is bed wedding, harming, farming animals, and setting fires. If

407
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Speaker 1: you have your kid doing those three things allegedly under

408
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: this triad of evil, you can bet that there's a

409
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Speaker 1: pretty good chance they're going to grow up to harm humans.

410
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Speaker 1: I went to bed. I uh, I didn't set harmful fires,

411
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Speaker 1: but I did play with fire a little bit. I

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Speaker 1: think this is more like you're intentionally setting fires like

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Speaker 1: harmiting or burning burned down the woods. No, I didn't

414
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Speaker 1: do that. Um. And then you know, my dog died

415
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: and I sat in his doghouse for two days and cried.

416
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: So I was it's not harming animals, clearly not. I

417
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: was on the other side of the coin from early

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Speaker 1: on when Huggy Bear died. But that whether or not

419
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: that's true that that's been used. The Huggy Bear, Yeah,

420
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: that was my German Shepherd. Great name for a dog. Yeah,

421
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Speaker 1: that was like the first dog that I really bonded with.

422
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Speaker 1: That was the dude from the like the street Wise

423
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Speaker 1: start from start, right, Huggy Bear. That's great. Yeah, he

424
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: was awesome. I get a little sad thing about him today,

425
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: which Huggy Bear not the TV show. Okay, I just

426
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: remember my mom literally came home from work and like

427
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: I was in the doghouse crying, like laying down and crying.

428
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: That is sweet. You know, I was such a little boss.

429
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: How old? How long was Huggy Bear around? Uh? You know,

430
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: I don't remember, like your whole life. Was he alive

431
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: when you were born, not when I was born? His

432
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: mom Daisy was And then Daisy died when I was

433
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: really young, so it didn't have a super big impact.

434
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: But then Huggy Bear was one of the puppies we kept.

435
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: How old were you when he died? I want to

436
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: say I was like eight or nine maybe, Oh, yeah,

437
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: that's right there. Yeah, first big loss. You know. Um

438
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: r I p Huggy Bear. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah,

439
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: we'll drink one in your honor tonight. Hb uh. But anyway, Yeah,

440
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: you're right. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny all the time.

441
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: But if you're torturing and killing animals, it's it's not

442
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: a good sign. No, And and the people who have

443
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: agitated for animal rights have long used this. Whether it's

444
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: true or not, people think it's true. So the whole,

445
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: the whole premise for a lot of people has been

446
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: if a human harms an animal, there's a good chance

447
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 1: they're gonna harm a human. So if you protect animals

448
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 1: and prevent people from harming animals, you're preventing somebody from

449
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: possibly harming human. I'm fine with that line of thought.

450
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: Or you're also by drawing a line before animals, you're

451
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: rooting out people who might harm humans down the road

452
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: by having them exposed themselves as harmers of animals. That

453
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: one's a little morally trickier. If harming animals doesn't lead

454
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: to harming humans. If you assume that it doesn't treat

455
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: the person like that like, oh, you're a serial killer

456
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: because you just certifire Peter Pants and Ate bit the

457
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: head off a chipmunk. Actually, you'd probably be right if

458
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: especially if you did all three at once. At the

459
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: very least, I wouldn't leave them alone with your child.

460
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: Uh So, a lot of progress is being made, and

461
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: by nineteen o seven all the states in the United

462
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: States had some kind of anti cruelty law going on,

463
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: and it started to become just sort of the mindset. Yeah,

464
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: that was kind of the tradition, Like the states oversaw

465
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: a protection of animals until the mid sixties when the

466
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: federal government got involved and created the Animal Welfare Act

467
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: and the Animal Welfare Act. Um. Again, this kind of

468
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: follows that thing where some people agitate for changes to

469
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: the law, changes to our way of thinking, and get

470
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: the public aroused, and then the public say Congress or

471
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: government do something. The same thing happened here. UM Sports

472
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: Illustrated in Life Magazine both came out with articles about

473
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: how people's family pets are being stolen and used as

474
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: what are called random sourced animals that are sold to labs.

475
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: And that really would get the public going right, because

476
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: the idea that Huggy Bear could be stolen from your yard,

477
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: sold to Johns Hopkins University's Head Trauma Center, and then

478
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: have his head beaten open with a bat. See what happens.

479
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I used Huggy Bear. Now that I'm I'm

480
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: making this this far forty years later, that still cuts

481
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: the uh so, Snoopy Snoopy is stolen from your yard

482
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: and experimented on the idea that this could happen just

483
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: scared an outraged America, and UM it created very quickly

484
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: the Animal Welfare Act. Yeah, and that originally just protected

485
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: lab use, but then over the following decades, you know,

486
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: it really expanded. UM and today it protects all warm

487
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: blooded animals in lab experience except three birds sadly uh,

488
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: the rattus genus rats, and the muss genus mice and

489
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: uh not Coincidentally, they those three makeup of research animals

490
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: in the US, along with the other cold blooded animals

491
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: that are used like fish and reptiles. So of the

492
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: animals used in lab experiments are not covered by the

493
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: Animal of Welfare Act. But it's not to say that

494
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: other animals can't be used in animal experiments. It just

495
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: means that if you do experiment on a guinea pig

496
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: or a macaque monkey or something like that, you have

497
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: to follow these guidelines. But even then the guidelines are

498
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: pretty slouchy. Actually, they're huge loopholes, and basically they amount

499
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: to um you. Especially originally in like nineteen sixty six,

500
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: you just have to reduce unnecessary suffering. Who's to say

501
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: what's necessary or unnecessary? Certainly the law didn't, and they

502
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: left it up to the researchers to decide what was

503
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: necessary or unnecessary. What's crazy is Chuck is it has

504
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: been expanded and amended, It's also been narrowed. There was

505
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: an amendment made I think in the seventies that extended

506
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: the protections, which again are loose and almost toothless, to

507
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: all animals warm and cold blooded. And then in two

508
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: thousand two they dialed it back to what it is

509
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: now and what it was originally, whichard's warm blooded animals

510
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: except rats and mice, and the cold blooded animals and

511
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: the birds and the birds and the bees in the

512
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: sycamore trees. All right, well, let's take a break here

513
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: and we're gonna come back and talk about the kind

514
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: of the two categories for animal protection, animal welfarest and

515
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: animal rightest's what I call them, all right, right after this, Okay,

516
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: we're back, Chuck, and you teased um the different types

517
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: of approaches to protecting animals, right there is like a

518
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: whole contingent of people. And I think most people on

519
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: the street, if you stopped them said do animals deserve

520
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: protection from harm or suffering? I would guess most people

521
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: would say yes. And I'm sure there's surveys out there.

522
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: I didn't find one, Um, but if you drill a

523
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: little deeper into it, to adopt a little corporate buzz speak, um,

524
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: low hanging fruit, yeah, you would find that there's really

525
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: kind of two threads to this, like, and they're they're

526
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: based on just how far you feel that protection should go. Right,

527
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: So the first is animal welfare. So and that's the

528
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: current accepted paradigm of how we approach treating animals protecting animals. Yeah,

529
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: and they generally think, uh, and these are you know, generalizations,

530
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: but it's if you're going to fit people into two groups,

531
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: you got to do that. They generally think that, you know,

532
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: what we're doing now works pretty well, but we need

533
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: to enforce it more. We agree with John Locke and

534
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: Emmanuel Kant that you should protect animals from cruelty, but

535
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: not because like they have moral standing necessarily, but because

536
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: that is a sign of a bad person that makes

537
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: us look bad, which you know that's valid. Um. But

538
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: they balance that out with we treat animals humanely, but

539
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: we can still use them for food and labor. Right,

540
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: So animals deserve protection from humans harming them, um, But

541
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: they're also our property, like we can we can do

542
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: what we want with them, so long is there isn't

543
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: any unjustified suffering, right and uh, not suffer needlessly, which

544
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: you pointed out earlier, but more so here that that's

545
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: a needlessly what does that mean it's very open to interpretation. Yeah,

546
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: because if you look at what happens to animals in

547
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: animal experiments, there's um I mean it runs the gamut,

548
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: like and everything from withholding food and water to um

549
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: uh burning skin with blow torches or to making a

550
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: monkey obese on purpose and making sure they don't exercise.

551
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: So you can study what lap band surgery does, right,

552
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 1: I mean there's damaging their brains, maiming on blinding them, um,

553
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: just doing invasive surgical procedures for for practice like just um.

554
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: The idea of what is justified is extremely subjective, but

555
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: as a society we've all generally agreed that hey, as

556
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: long as science is being advanced, as long as human

557
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: uh humanity is is being in some way advanced or

558
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: developed or protected, then it's justified. Um or And then

559
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: with food, right, like, is it those animals don't die

560
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 1: of old age? Is it? Is it a needless death

561
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: to eat a cow uh and kill the cow before

562
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: it's time? Yeah? And so most people, I think who

563
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: believe in the hierarchy of humans at the top of

564
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: all organisms here on earth would say, well, yeah, that's

565
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: a useful a useful um use of an animal feeding

566
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: a human, right, right, So that's the idea of animal welfare.

567
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 1: Protect them from harm, but yeah, we can eat them

568
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: and and and a good example is making sure a

569
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: cow has a good life while it's alive, it's not

570
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: suffering while alive, it's not scared when it dies, and

571
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: then you can eat it totally fine. That's the animal

572
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: welfares view, and that's the generally accepted view in in

573
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: the West. Animal rights or rightists. Uh. They think generally

574
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: that the system we have is flawed and that um,

575
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,959
Speaker 1: animals have these rights they or they should have rights

576
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: kind of along the same lines that humans do. Um.

577
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: They should have legal protection just like we do under

578
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: the law. And we are a long way from where

579
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: we need to be when it comes to protecting animals

580
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: from humans. Right. Um. The idea of the animal rightists

581
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: is that animals have an inherent moral value. Um. And

582
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: the idea behind that is if if they have an

583
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: inherent more moral value like humans do, then they deserve

584
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: legal protections that humans enjoy, which is a radically different

585
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: approach to protecting uh animals. Um. And the idea is that, um, well,

586
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: it all kind of came from this guy named Peter Singer,

587
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: and he wrote a book in nineteen called Animal Liberation,

588
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: and he basically started off the modern animal rights movement,

589
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: especially the radical version of it. He said in it

590
00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: that um that you, if you use Bentham's philocific calculus,

591
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 1: but include animals right to happiness, not just their suffering.

592
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: He added a little cherry on top, right, you just

593
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: blow the concept of using animals for human means out

594
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: of the water, like it's just not justifiable. Is an

595
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: animal a moral agent? And a moral agent is a

596
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: being that is capable of making decisions based on right

597
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: or wrong. And moral behavior comes in all sorts of forms.

598
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: We think of it as like, um, helping a little

599
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: lady across the street, or not stealing even though you

600
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: totally could and get away with it. Um, But it's

601
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: it's even more. It's even broader than that. And some

602
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: people say animals do demonstrate moral behavior like loyalty or

603
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: showing concern for someone that's or a person that's injured,

604
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: or something like that, and so therefore an animal can

605
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: be a moral agent. Other people say, no, an animal

606
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: can't rationalize, it can't think about the future, it can't

607
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: want to keep living. Therefore, it couldn't possibly be a

608
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: moral agent. And Peter Singer really made a lot of

609
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: waves when he said, he said, well, then if you're

610
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: going to experiment on animals because they're not moral agents,

611
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: you might as well go ahead and experiment on people

612
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: in vegetative states and infants because they're not moral agents

613
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: under that definition either. Yeah, he says, you know what, else,

614
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: can't rationalize your baby? Yeah, so go ahead and do

615
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: some horrible experiments on your baby. Yeah. And I'm sure,

616
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the other side of the argument was probably like,

617
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: oh god, and he dropped that Mike, and everything is

618
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: the rubbing in our faces. Uh. Another guy came along

619
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: named Tom Reagan, and uh. He wrote a book called

620
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: The Case for Animal Rights. He argued favorably, the animals

621
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: do have moral rights, and he had a little thing

622
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: that he liked to call subjects of a life. He said,

623
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: humans and animals are both subjects of a life, which

624
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: means we have you know, animals have that inner experience

625
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: that is called haveing a life like we do. Right,

626
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: So some of the ones that have higher moral, higher

627
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: faculties up. Yeah, yeah, it's not all animals in his

628
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: his uh, in his um view, it was like ones

629
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: that are capable of reasoning, because some people say humans

630
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 1: are the only rational beings on the planet and therefore

631
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: everything else is is open season. Um, these guys like

632
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: Tom Reagan said, no, there are certain animals out there

633
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: that can reason and therefore can be moral agents. Yeah.

634
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: I mean when you see behavior of some of these

635
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: animals like that elephants, well then people would be like,

636
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: that's anthropomorphizing, anthropomorphizing burn him. Yeah, you know, you try

637
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: and burning can't can't be can't be, can't be proven.

638
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: So therefore Descartes ghost exists. And then Tom Reagan also

639
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: made waves chucked by saying, um, if if an animal

640
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: is a subject of a life, meaning it can think

641
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: about its own life and want to live, therefore, um,

642
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: I sound like Miss South Carolina. Therefore, um, that animal

643
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: deserves at least one basic freedom, which is the freedom

644
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: from being property, which in and of itself would radically

645
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: alter our relationship humans relationship with animals. So these guys

646
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: are like kind of putting these ideas out there, and

647
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: as we'll see, they got some response, but it was

648
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: typically um among hardcore animal rights people rather than the

649
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: general public. Up to this point, and then the final

650
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: dude in the trifecta, the triad of Evil, of Evil,

651
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: of good. I know, I'm just teasing Gary franc Uh.

652
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: He was a guy that came along and said, you

653
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: know what, we need to abolish our domination over animals period. Outright,

654
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: it is slavery and we should treat it as such,

655
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: get rid of it. And he said, we didn't get

656
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: rid of slavery by making slavery more humane. We got

657
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: rid of slavery by getting rid of slavery. That's what

658
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: you do. And he's saying, it's the same thing here. Yeah,

659
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: pretty radical ideas at the time. Yeah, it's um and

660
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: radical is a pretty good word because these these ideas

661
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: really caught the attention of some people who did become

662
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: I guess radicalized by them. Like the the animal rights

663
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: movement has had long had a militant arm to it,

664
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: for sure. Yes, it started actually before even Peter Singer's

665
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 1: book Animal Liberation, from as far back as nineteen sixty two,

666
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: there was a group in the UK called the Hunt

667
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: Saboteurs Association. This is the most polite saboteurs organization name

668
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: you can come up with, probably, so they um, they

669
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: sort of laid the groundwork for for the Animal Liberation Front,

670
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: who was got a lot of press, and then another

671
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: group called the Band of Mercy Um. The Band of

672
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: Mercy was named for the Victorian era British SPC A

673
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 1: with their children's wing. Yeah, that's what in the cute Yeah,

674
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: totally cute, the Band of Mercy Um And they were

675
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: the actual the first people to liberate animals when they

676
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: broke into a laboratory that used uh or a farm

677
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: that that sold guinea pigs, two labs, and freed six

678
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: guinea pigs. Yeah, they made off with six, but I

679
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: mean there were six guinea pigs lives that uh that

680
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: otherwise would have been um subject to experimentation. So it

681
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: was a big success and they ended up eating the

682
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: guinea pigs to celebrate, No, they didn't. Uh. And the

683
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: actually the lady who ran the farm though, she was

684
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: really shaken up and she actually shut down her guinea

685
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: pig selling business because of that because she was I

686
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: mean some some people had broken into her house at

687
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: night and she thought twice Yeah, she was like this

688
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: is I don't want this to happen again. And I

689
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: mean this is depending on your viewpoint, this is deeply

690
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: uncool of these people, like they used in imidation. They

691
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: would make death threats, they would make bomb threats. Um.

692
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: They would threaten people's family. Yeah, they would set fires.

693
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: People who were running legitimate labs were threatened. Um, people

694
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: who were legitimately supplying the labs were threatened. Yeah, they

695
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 1: would set fires. Um. And then there were other ones

696
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: where you're just like, yeah, I'm kinda and can kind

697
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: of get behind that. The point to a lot of

698
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: these wasn't not wasn't just to get people to um

699
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: cease their activities or to actually liberate animals. They um

700
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: were done also to generate publicity. This is a huge

701
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: aspect of it. These guys were pr masters. They realized

702
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: that the bigger and the bolder, UM, the more likely

703
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: it was to get headlines. So guys like the or

704
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: groups like the Animal Liberation Front or UM the Band

705
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: of Mercy would agitate, go out and do these these acts,

706
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: and then Peter like more moderate groups that weren't actually

707
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: doing us would publicize it and write up press releases

708
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: and send it out to the press and um maybe

709
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: set up interviews and stuff like that and try to

710
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: get the get the word out as much as possible

711
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: about these One thing Peter did was they would, uh,

712
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: they would basically turn people. Well sometimes they would send

713
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: people in undercover to get jobs at these labs so

714
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: they could make videotapes. And sometimes they would just get

715
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: in touch with someone there who worked there, turn them

716
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: as but basically as a double agent, and say you

717
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: will be our person on the inside and you can

718
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: do these videos for us. And they got kill the Queen.

719
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: They got sixty hours worth of audio and video from

720
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: a lab, cut it down to a about a half

721
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: an hour documentary called Unnecessary Fuss and released it. And

722
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: it was a big deal. Like basically experimentation and and

723
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: in humane treatment on tape for the masses beyond. Like

724
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: it was about as ugly as you could get. Was

725
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: that the u PEN Head Trauma Center, UM research lab.

726
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: That's probably all you need to say. Pretty much. Baboons

727
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: were involved and they were researching head trauma. Yeah. So um.

728
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: When this came out, it really got the public going.

729
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: And just like in the sixties with those two articles

730
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: about people's pets being stolen and used in lab experiments,

731
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: this led to an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act.

732
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: UM directly led to it, and the amendment said that, uh,

733
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: there needed to be committees that oversaw each lab that

734
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: was carrying out animal experiments. There needed to be the

735
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: use of pain relievers and anesthesia uh in in experiments,

736
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,919
Speaker 1: and there needed to be postoperative care in lab experiments.

737
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 1: Right yeah, and that you couldn't take a single animal

738
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 1: and just keep operating on that animal. Okay, Again, all

739
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: of these things had a very important caveat. Caveat is

740
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: unless it's necessary. So there was a huge loopholder. If

741
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: you're testing like pain threshold on a maccaque monkey, while

742
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: you can't give it pain relievers, you can't give it anesthesia,

743
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: you need to inflict pain, and well it's part of

744
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: the experiment, so it's medically necessary. Or we have to

745
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: see how one maccaque monkey responds to multiple surgeries because

746
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: we're trying to induce ps PTSD in that monkey, so

747
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: we can study PTSD drugs. Well, that's medically necessary, and

748
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: that this this whole loophole, that huge loophole with the

749
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: idea that advancing science and human understanding and human welfare

750
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: as long as it's necessary, then you can justify anything

751
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: you do to an animal that's still around and it's

752
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: been around for a very long time. So this is

753
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: all culminated in more recent years with a guy, an

754
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: attorney named Stephen Wise, who uh depending on who you are,

755
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: you might this guy is crazy, or you might say

756
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: he's amazing, a hero and a hero. So he's an

757
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: animal rights attorney essentially. He wrote a book in two

758
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: thousand called Rattling the Cage Colon toward Legal Rights for Animals,

759
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: and he basically put forth a very radical idea, which

760
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: is that some animals, like the elephant, or the great ape,

761
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: or the gray parrot African gray parrot, they actually deserve personhood.

762
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: They deserve legal protection under the law, just as a

763
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: human being does. And let me uh well, he founded

764
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: a in two thousand and seven, a group called the

765
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: Non Human Rights Project Big in Little H Big are

766
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: Big P and it's a legal defense group that basically said,

767
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: let's find a sympathetic judge somewhere where we can bring

768
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: up a case and maybe get something some precedent set,

769
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: get something on the books. Yeah, all they have to

770
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: do is get one case heard, get it denied, and

771
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: that's to motion the appeals process where you can work

772
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: through the higher courts. Right, um and hopefully get to

773
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,959
Speaker 1: get some sort of legal ruling. Right. So this guy

774
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: is sharp and part of the problem that he's facing

775
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: right now is, as far as law in the United

776
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: States goes, animals are property. The strictly property, their special

777
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: property right Like, for example, if you're beating up your

778
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 1: microwave and the neighbors aren't going to call the cops,

779
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: and the cops aren't gonna come. But if you're beating

780
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: up your dog, the neighbors are probably going to call

781
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: the cops, and the cops are probably going to come. Right.

782
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: The thing is is that animals still property, and and

783
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: as far as the law goes, property cannot possibly have

784
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: standing in a court. And if it doesn't have standing,

785
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 1: then that means that the animal can't sue on its

786
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: own behalf. You being the neighbor, you can't sue on

787
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: the dog's behalf because you're just the neighbor who you

788
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: have no standing in this dog's wealth, are either. So

789
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 1: these these animals, any animal is in legal limbo as

790
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: far as American courts are concerned. Him. Why is trying

791
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: to figure out a way around that? Yeah, he attempted

792
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: some lawsuits and his organization did UM in New York

793
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: on behalf of four chimpanzees. UM, and he said, you

794
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: know what I'm gonna see on these chimps behalf, I'm

795
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: gonna try and gain their freedom. He lost all the cases,

796
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: got a lot of press, but he did have one

797
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 1: heard and in one of the cases he even got

798
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: a judge or not got a judge, but the judge

799
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: actually issued a writ of habeas corpus, first time ever

800
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 1: for an animal, even though the judge reversed that order

801
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: that same day. It Yeah, what did I just do? Uh?

802
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 1: It was a very big deal in the media. Got

803
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember hearing about this guy on the

804
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: news and when you when you wrote this article, is like, oh,

805
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: I totally know that guy. Yeah. Yeah, there's a really

806
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,919
Speaker 1: great Boston Globe profile on him and what he's doing

807
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: UM from a year a couple of years ago that's

808
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: worth checking out. Yeah, there's a documentary to UM release

809
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: this year called Unlocking the Cage by the legendary d A.

810
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: Pinne Baker and his wife and partner Chris. I'm not

811
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: sure you'd pronounce her name Heddas. Perhaps he's he's the

812
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: one that did Dylan's don't look back in or. He's

813
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: very legendary the War Room. I don't know if you

814
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: ever saw that, the political one. Um, what else because

815
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: I know the name he's he's a documentary legend, documentary

816
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 1: documentary and legend documentary, legend whatever. But he's uh made

817
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,240
Speaker 1: this movie about Stephen Wise and his group called Unlocking

818
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: the Cage. I haven't seen it yet, but it's on

819
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 1: the list. Um. Yeah, he's a pretty interesting guy. Uh,

820
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: what's what. Something that struck me that I found in

821
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: my research was he and Peter don't really see eye

822
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 1: the eye. They're not working in conjunction. In a few

823
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: years back, Peter Um brought a case against Sea World

824
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: on behalf of the Orcas and said that it was

825
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: a violation of the Thirteenth Amendment against slavery, and Stephen

826
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: Wives is like, what are you doing? He saw that

827
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: they had very very clearly opened the door for the

828
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: judge to be like, the Constitution doesn't apply to animals

829
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: because animals aren't people. And once that precedent is set

830
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: like that, because it's not actually written in law, and

831
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: no one there hasn't been that precedent, and that really

832
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: opened the door for it. And he Luckily the judge

833
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: is just like no, but didn't rule any further. So

834
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: what why is trying to do is to get somebody

835
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: to set a different precedent, which is, uh, yeah, well

836
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,439
Speaker 1: that that actually makes kind of sense. So let's let's

837
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: go ahead and run this trial through. Yeah, and it's

838
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: something that could be possible one day. Like you know,

839
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: there have been courts that have ruled where, uh, this

840
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: animal was an heir to in a state, and the

841
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,439
Speaker 1: court made the animal temporary ward of the court and

842
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: endowed this animal with the inheritance give it a nice lunch. Yeah,

843
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 1: they had to kind of work through that. So he's

844
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: he's kind of he's got a little bit of a

845
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: leg to stand on and kind of pointing some of

846
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 1: these things out right. And plus, corporations are artificial people

847
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: under the law. Yeah, we did a whole show in

848
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: that right, right. Um, So, I mean it's not like

849
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: this is just totally wacky as far as the law goes.

850
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: I think the problem is this the big challenge he's

851
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: facing is, Okay, let's say you're successful and all of

852
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 1: a sudden, animals have the same rights under the law

853
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:44,439
Speaker 1: that humans do. What's that gonna do to the world. Um,

854
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: And that's a huge that's a huge question that's raised.

855
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like you can just you can come up

856
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: with a lot of stuff that would happen automatically. Obviously,

857
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: medical testing has gone. No more zoos, no more circuses

858
00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: for lea circuses with animals, right, it's just flee circuses

859
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 1: maybe um the creepiest circus of all. Um. Obviously, there

860
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: would be no hunting. Veganism would probably just be that's

861
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 1: just what we eat. Now. Nugent would just drown himself, Yeah,

862
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: he really would. Yeah, Ted Nugent would not like a

863
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: world where animals had the same rights that I think

864
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: about it. Um, And like pets would would there be

865
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: pets any longer? There's actually been changes I think somewhere

866
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 1: in Colorado and definitely in somewhere in Rhode Island, if

867
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: not Rhode Island, the state. Um, they they amended the

868
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: law to include guardian instead of owner or in addition

869
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: to owner. That's a different thing. It totally is like

870
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: when you're the legal guardian of your younger brother, you're

871
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: not their owner. No, I mean you might treat them

872
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: that way. But uh. And then the lastly, so we

873
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: talked about animals being moral agents. Right, so if you're

874
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: a moral agent, you also have moral responsibilities in addition

875
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: to moral protections. Another can of worms. Yeah right, So

876
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: like if an animal kills another animal, as are you

877
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: going to try it and execute it? Yeah? I mean, well,

878
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: I mean that kind of happens today. You can animals

879
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: are often put down when they attack other animals. Yeah, okay,

880
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: so yeah, there would be more of the same. What's

881
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: weird is apparently back in the Renaissance, in the medieval era,

882
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: um they used to have trials for animals that did

883
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: something record. It wasn't I mean like we do it today.

884
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: Like remember Travis the chimp who um who ripped the

885
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: woman's face off. He was summarily executed by police and

886
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: I think had he even been captured they would have

887
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: put him down. There wouldn't have been a trial. But

888
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: they used to actually have the trial. And it wasn't

889
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 1: because they wanted to give the animal a fair trial.

890
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: It was for he feeling the the community, you know,

891
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: to make the humans feel better. If they could draw

892
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: this out and make this like an actual issue that

893
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: was resolved in the execution of the of the animal. Interesting,

894
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's pretty way boy, good one, dude. Yeah,

895
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: nice job. Yeah, thanks you too, buddy. If you want

896
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: to know more about animal rights, you can type that

897
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: into the search bar your favorite search engine. And since

898
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: I said search engine, that means it's time for listener mail. Yes,

899
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: this is the famous part two from earlier this week

900
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,280
Speaker 1: with IVON and I promised a list of band names

901
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: and a list of puns from Josh, because Josh says

902
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 1: that he hates puns despite his somewhat regular use of them. Yeah,

903
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: I again, I take issue with this. If you accidentally

904
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: make a pun, you're not a punny person. All right, Well,

905
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: let's just go on this list. Poison IVY episode Josh,

906
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: let's stop beating around the bush. Accident blood types Josh,

907
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure I take a B blood. I'm positive of it.

908
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 1: Hula hoops discussing a pushing a hula hoop with a stick.

909
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: Hang in there and stick with it. Accident police dogs

910
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: discussing the current popularity of arson dogs. They're so hot

911
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: right now. I think that was on purpose. It's possible.

912
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: Remember that one chili Chili peppers, Josh, it's right for it.

913
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: Total accident. I don't even think you can include that one.

914
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: Can you sweat colors? There's this boiling point, I guess

915
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: talking about how hot it's been in Atlanta. M hm,

916
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: that's a reach. Yeah, I agree. Strike that one from

917
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:46,359
Speaker 1: the record, UM spam, talking about the trouble the maker

918
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: of spam had one trying to sell spam. He was

919
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 1: hamstrung by the name Hormel spice meat. Again. Accident, handwriting analysis,

920
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: the writings on the wall. I don't even remember that one.

921
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: I'm not pun though, I'm not copping to any of

922
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 1: these purpose. I've got a few more UM casinos. It

923
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: paid off an aces Nolpe accident. White collar crime. This

924
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: is something that has woven into history of white collar crime.

925
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: Total act, disgusting. A wool transporter keeping wolf for his

926
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: own use. Again accident. I'm just gonna do one more,

927
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: pick the best of him, chuck uh. This like a letterman,

928
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: Tom tasteing how it works. After saying it makes you

929
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: wonder how things we can taste taste, he said, chew

930
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: on that one. Accident. And now the band names. I'm

931
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: gonna read through these very quickly and looking at this list,

932
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: these are great. So if you're out there looking for

933
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: a band, name, Listen up, listen up, toe thumb uh interest,

934
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: cytoplasmic sperm injection. Maybe like a prog band. Maggot Therapy

935
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: that's a metal band. The Static Crush that's total chew gaze,

936
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: oh yeah, or ima uh disruptive Technology. I don't even know.

937
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: My Atonic Goats. That's a good one. Yea. The Tennessee

938
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: Stiff Legs. I love it. That's a blue grass band.

939
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: A fist full of neurons. Metal uh, force Multiplier, total metal. Yeah,

940
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. Nazis on meth it's metal. Oh yeah,

941
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: punk that can be good too. Masters of Plastic, nerd Core,

942
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: colloidal quantum dots, definite nerd core, super critical fluid. That's

943
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: probably nerd Wore two actually, I guess so. Or a

944
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: boy band, the Brownie Wise Massacre. That's a indie that's good.

945
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: Brownie Wise overdrive boy they were two um Snake detection

946
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: theory up on that one. He's really cracking me up.

947
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,439
Speaker 1: Extraordinary rendition. That's like a guy just like you. Two

948
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: guys in Maine that singing a coffee shop. They do

949
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: all the classics. Ye standards were extraordinary rendition, controlled burn

950
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: not bad. That's a new metal Poor fred Noonan. That's

951
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: a band that's destined to break up poop Fusion, same

952
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: cooperative eye hypothesis. I don't know if that's a good name.

953
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: After all, I might retract that one. Uh, Flesh on

954
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: the Chunks, that's a good one. Or that could be

955
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: the first uh album from poop Fusion. Uh, like a

956
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: Zappa esque band, the Horny skin Folds. M. I can

957
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: see that being like, uh, party party rock kind of thing, right, Um?

958
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: Is that freedom rock? Yeah? Man, turn it up professional

959
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: mermaid culture. That's not bad. That's very indie though. Yeah,

960
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: like they go to Columbia University or something. Uh. And

961
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 1: then finally too or super Critical CEO two not bad. Okay,

962
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: that's too super critical. So and then finally Frozen poop

963
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: Knife in there. Who did you tell to change their

964
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: name to Frozen poop Knife? Oh? I don't know. Oh

965
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,479
Speaker 1: uh diarrhea Planet. Yeah, and they tweeted back and said

966
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: thanks for the idea, and never did they No way. Yeah,

967
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: that's great. Oh yeah, those guys are good. Yeah, all right,

968
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: that's it. That's it. Everybody von for keeping track of that. Man,

969
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 1: that's a great lesson. Yeah, and thank you to the

970
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: dudes at primer Stories for posting the essay I wrote.

971
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: Go check it out at primer stories dot com, slash

972
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: s y s K and if you want to hang

973
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: out with us, you can hang out with us on

974
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: Twitter at s y s K podcast. You can join

975
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 1: us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you Should Know.

976
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: You can send us an email the Stuff podcast at

977
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com and has always joined us

978
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: at our home on the web, Stuff you Should Know

979
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 1: dot com For more on this and thousands of other topics.

980
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com. Mhm