1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Originals. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 2: This is an iHeart original. 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 3: This story might be hard to hear. There's detailed talk 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 3: of suicide and violence, but we think it's important not 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 3: to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libby Caswell. 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 3: Please take care while listening. 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 4: December fourth, that was our last visit together. 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 3: Colleen Huff was Libby's parent, aid a professional assigned by 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 3: the state to monitor her visits with her son's eve 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 3: and help her work towards regaining custody. Each week that 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 3: meet at Cindy's house. Collen tells me that Libby would 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 3: often arrive at these visits excited and happy, as it 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 3: was the only time she would get to see ZV. 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: But on this date, December fourth, a week before her death, 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 3: Libby is in a state of panic. 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 4: She was like really upset, and she was shaking, and 17 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 4: she she looked at her appearance, I mean, she was 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 4: just a mess, and you know, I knew something was very, 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 4: very different. 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 3: Colleen's instincts are right. After some coaxing, Libby tells her 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 3: that just a few hours earlier, Devan attacked her on 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 3: the bed, strangling her. They had been staying with one 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: of Devan's family friends, Gary Stevens, who happened to witness 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 3: the incident. 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 5: So when I. 26 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 6: Opened up the door, I seen Devan was on top 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 6: of Lip and he was choking her. 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 3: Back at her mom's house. Libby tries to calm down. 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 4: She was shaking, so I knew she was afraid. 30 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 3: For years, Libby had kept Devan's abuse mostly hidden, only 31 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 3: sharing bits and pieces with certain friends, But today is different. 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: Telling Colleen about the strangulation is the only time I 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: know of where she actually reported an act of violence 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: to someone in a position of authority, and Colleen immediately 35 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 3: jumps into action. 36 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 4: I called all the shelters in Kansas City to try 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 4: to find her a safe place to go. 38 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 3: While Colleen's making phone calls, Libby tries to push aside 39 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: her distress and connect with zav. She cooks him pancakes 40 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 3: and changes his outfit, and eventually Colleen lines up a 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 3: bed for Libby at a domestic violent shelter run by 42 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: the Hope House. 43 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 4: I found a shelter with availability. I cleared the rest 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 4: of my schedule after the supervised visit. After she got 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 4: to spend time with her son, she was going to 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 4: go with me. I felt like she needed to be 47 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 4: in a safe place. 48 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 3: There's a food through win. 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 7: So what. 50 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 3: From iHeart Podcast. I'm Melissa Jelson and this is what 51 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 3: happened to Libby Caswell. 52 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 7: Cross. 53 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 8: I can't tell you a single time at night that 54 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 8: she'd ever have her blinds up, and because she always 55 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 8: was looking over her shoulder always. 56 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 9: This is not a homicide. This is a suicide polsuse. 57 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 10: He wanted to do was clean up and get away 58 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 10: from him. 59 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: She started jumping through all the hoops. She was like, 60 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: I know what I need to do. 61 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 6: Now was the last time I'm seeing I couldn't even 62 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 6: tell you which direction he went. 63 00:03:44,600 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: Somebody dropped the ball. 64 00:03:50,880 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 3: Or Chapter five, The Fight of Your Life. December fourth, 65 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen was supposed to be a happy day for 66 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 3: the Caswell family. Libby's sister Natalie had just given birth 67 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: to her first child, and this was the day she 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: was coming home from the hospital. 69 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 11: We pulled up to the house and my dad helped 70 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 11: me carry you all my bags and stuff in the door. 71 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: But the welcome Natalie gets from her family is not 72 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 3: at all what she imagined. Libby is at Cindy's house 73 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 3: and she's deeply distraught. 74 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 11: As soon as I walked in the door. She was 75 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 11: standing in the living room with my mom and Colleen, 76 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 11: and she was just crying, like really upset about something. 77 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 11: And at the time, I didn't know why she was crying, 78 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 11: and I started hearing what they were talking about. They 79 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 11: were talking about he did something to her and that's 80 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 11: why she was so upset, and so I was like, 81 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 11: what's going on? And so they started telling me about 82 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 11: how she was late to her visit because they were 83 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 11: at Devin's stepdad's house and he heard them arguing and 84 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 11: walked into the bedroom where they were staying, and Devin 85 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 11: was on top of Libby, choking her. 86 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: Despite the circumstances, Libby tries her best to celebrate her sister. 87 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 11: We were in the kitchen and she was asking me 88 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 11: questions about the baby and my birth and all that. 89 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: But Libby can't hide her fear over what had just 90 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: happened to her and what might happen next. 91 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 11: Her voice was shaky, and I was like, why don't 92 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 11: you just come home. I don't like we could tell 93 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 11: him you're not here. She just kept saying like, no, 94 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 11: I can't do that. I said, well, why give me 95 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 11: a reason, why can't you do that I don't understand, 96 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 11: and she said, well, because you don't understand what would 97 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 11: happen if I stay here, he would know I'm here, 98 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 11: and it's not safe for you, and it's not safe 99 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 11: for Zay. You don't know what he would do, and 100 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 11: I have to stay with him to keep him away. 101 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 3: But there is another option, the domestic Violent Shelter. Colleen 102 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 3: had found Libby a placement at a nearby shelter run 103 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 3: by the Hope House. It felt like a good compromise 104 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 3: and escape from Devin that kept her and her family safe. 105 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: Libby agrees to go after her visit with Zaev, but 106 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: there's a catch. Colleen would have to escort Libby to 107 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: the police station first, then the police would take Libby 108 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: to the shelter. This is the standard protocol for the 109 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 3: intake process at Hope House. The CEO of Hope House 110 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 3: told me that the police are involved in order to 111 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 3: protect staff and new clients during what is often a 112 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: time and highly charged moment. But in Libby's experience, involving 113 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: the police meant risking a fine or arrest. It meant 114 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 3: being called uncooperative, a nuisance. 115 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 4: At the end of the visit, she changed her mind 116 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 4: and decided not to go. 117 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 3: Libby didn't say why. Nobody knows if it was her 118 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: distrust of police, if she was worried about Devon's reaction, 119 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: or something else. And it's possible that if Libby had 120 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 3: spoken up about her hesitations, there could have been a 121 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: different solution. 122 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 4: And I tried to talk her into it, but that was. 123 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 8: Well. 124 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 4: If if I had to do it all over again, 125 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 4: I would have thrown her over my shoulders and put 126 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 4: her in my car and made her followed three way 127 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 4: that but she didn't, and that's the last time I 128 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 4: ever saw her. 129 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: Libby leaves her mom's house alone. At the end of 130 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: her visit. She walks out of the front door and 131 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 3: drives off in her black Forward Fusion. 132 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 11: I just assumed that I would see her again on Monday, 133 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 11: so I kind of went about, you know, my life 134 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 11: with my newborn. I think about that a lot. How 135 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 11: I don't have any pictures of them together. They only 136 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 11: met one time, and didn't really think much of it 137 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 11: because I thought she'd be back. 138 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: But Libby never made it to that next scheduled visit 139 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: with Zave the following Monday. That was the day her 140 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: body was discovered. The next seven days marked the last 141 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: of Libby's life. It's hard to know exactly where she 142 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 3: was or what she was doing, because she didn't see 143 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: her family again. Her phone, which would have offered insight 144 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: into her whereabouts and communications, was never retrieved by police, 145 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: but I've been able to gather bits and pieces of 146 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: what happened during those days from talking to others. At 147 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: some point, Libby reconnects with Devon. My guess is that 148 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 3: it was pretty soon after she left Cindy's house, and 149 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 3: it seems to me, based on how her family described 150 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 3: her behavior, that she had recently relapsed. The couple would 151 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 3: have had nowhere to stay. Gary had kicked them out. 152 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 3: Cindy refused to have Devon in her home. I heard 153 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 3: from some friends that they may have stayed in an 154 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 3: abandoned house and also rented a room at another motel 155 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 3: in town. On Thursday, four days before her death, Libby's 156 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 3: car is stolen, allegedly by an acquaintance. She manages to 157 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: get it back fairly quickly, but it's in rough shape. 158 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: And then one day that week I couldn't confirm exactly 159 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 3: which Devon has an encounter with a man at his 160 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 3: father's house, who accuses Devon of stealing his drugs. The 161 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: man's furious and reportedly ripping at Devon's shirt, pushing him around. Then, 162 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 3: on Sunday, the day before libby death, Devin and Libby 163 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: meet up for a few hours with Nathan, Libby's childhood friend. 164 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: They all drive around town in Libby's car, listening to 165 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 3: music and smoking pot. Nothing about this seems out of 166 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 3: the ordinary to Nathan. 167 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 6: This is one of those days that I would have 168 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 6: never thought that they were arguing or anything. I mean, 169 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 6: it seems perfect. She was all about him and he 170 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 6: was all about her. 171 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: Until they stop for gas and Devin goes into pay 172 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: and the second Libby is alone with her friend, her 173 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 3: cheerful demeanor drops. 174 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 6: Libby don't get me and said, Nathan, I don't think 175 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 6: I feel safe with Devon anymore, like I don't. I 176 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 6: don't know. Something just seems off right now. 177 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: In the brief moment they have together, Nathan offers to 178 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 3: have Libby stay with him, but she declines. Devin gets 179 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 3: back in the car and they're off again, and Libby 180 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: switches to how she'd been acting before, happy carefree. Hearing 181 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: Nathan's story, I'm struck by how raw this moment of 182 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: vulnerability is, especially for someone like Libby so practiced at 183 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: hiding what she's going through. It seems to me like 184 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: it's a cry for help. 185 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 6: It was literally the night before she died, and she 186 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 6: waited until he went inside the Quick Trips to pay 187 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 6: for gas. I wish I could go back in time 188 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 6: and go stay with her at that hotel. 189 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: Eventually, Libby and Devin drop Nathan back off at home 190 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: and continue on their journey. Around this time, on Sunday evening, 191 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 3: Cindy is worried about Libby and repeatedly sending her messages. 192 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: She wants to note if Libby is going to make 193 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 3: it to her scheduled appointment with Xavier and Colleen, her 194 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 3: parent aid. The following morning, she messages her, are you 195 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 3: going to be here? Colleen is expecting you At nine 196 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 3: point thirty. Libby replies, I know, Mom, I need to 197 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: be straight when I come see him. Those are the 198 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 3: last words Cindy would receive from her daughter. At some 199 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 3: point in the wee hours of Monday morning, Libby and 200 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: Devon arrive at the sports Stadium in along with their 201 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 3: friend Nick. They hang out in the parking lot for 202 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 3: a bit. There, they meet another guest, David Fristo. He 203 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 3: was the one who encouraged Devon to call nine one 204 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: one after Libby's death. In his conversation with police, Fristo 205 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: told them he hadn't interacted much with the couple when 206 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: they first arrived, except some friendly hellos. When I tracked 207 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: Fristo down five years later, though, he had more to 208 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 3: say hello, Hello, Hey, it's more. 209 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 5: So Okay, I'm going to go outside on the porch. 210 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 3: I asked Fristo to walk me through what he remembered 211 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: from his encounter with Devin, Libby and Nick. He'd been 212 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 3: asleep in his room and woken up by the sound 213 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 3: of people talking. 214 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 5: The only reason I went out there and talked to 215 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 5: them because they was exactly right in front of my door, 216 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 5: my window, and they was talking so loud and making 217 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 5: so much racket that I just got up and went 218 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 5: out there, you know, because I'm thinking that they was 219 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 5: out there arguing them, but they wasn't. They was out 220 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 5: there just having fun talking. 221 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 3: You weren't annoyed that they were like waking. 222 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 5: You up when no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't, 223 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 5: I don't no, but uh, because it happens all the 224 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 5: time when you stay at a motel like that, because 225 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 5: there's always something going on. 226 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: Fristoe told me that they all hung out for a 227 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 3: bit in the parking lot. 228 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 5: I'm a person that'll talk to anybody. I'll talk to 229 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 5: a brick wall, you know. So I just went out 230 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 5: there and was talking and telling them. You know, we're 231 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 5: just talking about everything, anything and everything. We were talking 232 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 5: like what most men talk about, you know, sports and 233 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 5: stuff like that. 234 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: We were talking about football, baseball. 235 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: The Devin and the other guy next to him most 236 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: of the talking or was lippy as actively in the conversation, 237 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 3: not as much. 238 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 5: She didn't really voice her opinion about anything really. 239 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 3: Still, Fristo's impression of the couple was that they seemed fine, 240 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 3: good even I thought they was actually married. 241 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 5: They both seemed really happy, I know that much. 242 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 6: They wasn't arguing. 243 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 5: You can count of sense if somebody's arguing and fighting, 244 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 5: but they It didn't feel that way to me. 245 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 3: I can't help but think about how Libby also seemed 246 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 3: fine to Nathan, one of her close friends, until they 247 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: got a moment alone and her whole facade crumbled. 248 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 4: It's hard to say, because people can put on a 249 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 4: good act, you know what I mean. I don't know. 250 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 5: It's hard to judge people. 251 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: I know Libby made at least one more attempt to 252 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 3: reach out for help. 253 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 10: I may have been one of the last ones speak 254 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 10: to her on the phone. 255 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: Anyway, At some point, when Devin was out of earshot, 256 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 3: she picked up her phone and called her friend Brian. 257 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 10: Basically that phone call was her telling me that she 258 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 10: was at a hotel. Devin had taken her there, she 259 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 10: had met him there or something. I'm not really sure, 260 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 10: but she didn't feel safe and wanted me to come 261 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 10: pick her up. And it was a very brief call. 262 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 10: It probably didn't last more than two or three minutes, 263 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 10: but best of my recollection, she said, he's here, I 264 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 10: have to go. 265 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: I'll call you back. 266 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 10: I'll call you right back as soon as I can. 267 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 10: I was like, promise me, you're going to call me back, 268 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 10: and she said I promise and click and that was it. 269 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 10: And that was the last I spoke to her. 270 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 3: In the summer of twenty twenty two, I found myself 271 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: standing in the parking lot of the sports Stadium in 272 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 3: probably pretty close to the same spot where nearly five 273 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 3: years earlier, Libby and Devon had chatted with David Fristo 274 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 3: before they checked in to Room three nineteen. The Sports 275 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: Stadium in sits directly on Highway forty in Independence, around 276 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 3: the corner from the stadium with the Kansas City Chiefs 277 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: play during football season, The motel can attract out of 278 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 3: town fans, who I imagine are sorely disappointed when they 279 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: pull up outside a yellowing block of dingy rooms that 280 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: look like they haven't been updated since the eighties. Google 281 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: reviews mentioned shady characters, dirty linen's, and frequent bug sidings, 282 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 3: But for the most part, the clientele aren't football fans. 283 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: They're locals with few other places to go. I knew 284 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 3: from reading police reports that the Independence Police Department was 285 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: often at the motel responding to nine one one calls 286 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 3: involving alleged drug sales, robberies, and assaults. As recently as 287 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 3: August twenty twenty three, a man was killed there. But 288 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 3: even so, I wanted to see it for myself, to 289 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: get a better sense of the place and potentially answer 290 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 3: some lingering questions about the crime scene. When I told 291 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 3: Cindy my plan to go, even in the middle of 292 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: the day, she advised that I should bring someone with me, 293 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: someone more physically intimidating, which is how I ended up 294 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 3: accompanied by a six foot two hundred pound private investigator 295 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 3: who carries a concealed weapon. 296 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: I'm Jim Murray. I'm one of the founders of Star 297 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: Investigations LLC out of Jefferson City, Missouri. Been in a private 298 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: investigator for about no close to forty years now. 299 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 3: Even with Jim Murray by my side, I was having 300 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 3: some serious second thoughts. As soon as we pulled into 301 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 3: the parking lot, I felt eyes on us. People were 302 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 3: peeking through the curtains, opening their doors to look at 303 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 3: our shiny rental SUV, the nicest in the lot. Almost 304 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 3: immediately I saw a drug sale take place through a 305 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: car window. 306 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 4: The keys. 307 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: Jim Murray and I didn't linger to take in the scene. 308 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: We headed into the office and asked to rent room 309 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 3: three nineteen. Now, requesting a specific room was a pretty 310 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: weird ask. All the rooms are essentially identical and equally dismal, 311 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 3: And sure enough, the motel clerk told us room three 312 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 3: nineteen was dirty and handed his keys to another room instead. 313 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 3: There was an awkward moment of silence as Mariy and 314 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: I looked at each other, and then, without skipping a beat, 315 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 3: Maurray came up with a wild, concocted story about how 316 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 3: we were a couple and that specific room held special 317 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 3: memories for us. We wanted to return there for old 318 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 3: times sake. I don't know what the clerk made of 319 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 3: this explanation, but eventually, when he saw we weren't going anywhere, 320 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 3: he said, if we really wanted that room, we could 321 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 3: come back in twenty minutes and it would be ready. 322 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 3: So we drove around for a bit, then came back 323 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 3: and got the keys, fill the old fashioned kind with 324 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 3: three nineteen written on a cheap plastic tag. Holding them 325 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 3: in my hands, I couldn't help but imagine Libby doing 326 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 3: this exact same thing. Jim Murray, my producer, and I 327 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 3: grabbed the audio equipment and some notebooks and shuffled inside, 328 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 3: and immediately there was a rapping at the door. 329 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 12: What excuse me? 330 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 9: What? 331 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: Okay, We're just gonna be a minute to drop off 332 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: a tanks. Patures give us minutes, okay, thank you. 333 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 3: The motel clerk told us we were only allowed to 334 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 3: have two people in the room. You can hear in 335 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: my voice that I was nervous about their intrusion, but 336 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: it wasn't just that. Standing inside Room three nineteen felt 337 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 3: creepier than I had expected. Honestly, I wanted to get 338 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 3: the hell out of there, and so we moved through 339 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: the room quickly, taking photos and jotting down details that 340 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: we thought might be useful. 341 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: L see that this door has been repair or replaced, 342 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: going and Yelsey wanted to see that. 343 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: Jim Murray wanted to take some measurements of the bathroom 344 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 3: where Libby died. He had doubts that Libby, at five 345 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 3: foot five, would have been able to take Devon's belt, 346 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: feed it over the top of the door, and then 347 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 3: close it. 348 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 12: I understand is that the pressure is on this This 349 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 12: just falls out, put the belt there and super close, 350 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 12: he said. 351 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: I said, I don't think it would worked. 352 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 11: I don't. 353 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: Well, maybe it will. 354 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 13: As I'm wrong. 355 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 11: I just don't. 356 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: You'd have to just be a real contortionist. 357 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 14: To do it. 358 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 3: We have planned to spend some time in the room 359 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: discussing the case, but I changed my mind and suggested 360 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 3: we leave right away. 361 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 12: Is there anything else we want to do here? Should 362 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 12: we hit it? 363 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: That's all I needed? You know what you've seen it 364 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: inside and at yourself. 365 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 3: We took the measurements, we packed up, piled back into 366 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 3: the car, and once we were out of the parking lot, 367 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 3: I brought out the recorder. 368 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 8: So we were just at the hotel room or the 369 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 8: motel room where Livy died. And it was very, very small, 370 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 8: you just enough room for a bed, and there were 371 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 8: two large mirrors, one facing the bed and one on 372 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 8: the side of the bed, and a tiny bathroom with 373 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 8: a really rickety door on it that almost came off 374 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 8: just us opening and closing the door, and an absolutely 375 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 8: tiny bathroom. 376 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: For me, the saddest part is just looking at that 377 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: space between the toilet and that bathub O. How sad 378 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: is it to end your life right in that area. 379 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 12: It did not feel good in that room. 380 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 8: It was a really sad place to go and a 381 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 8: sad place for her to have those last moments of 382 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 8: her life. 383 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 3: In the weeks after Libby's body was found, ipd never 384 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 3: returned to Room three nineteen. As far as I can tell, 385 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: they didn't go back to measure the tiny bathroom and 386 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 3: work through the logistics of Devin's story, nor did they 387 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 3: try to track down more guests who'd stayed near Room 388 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 3: three nineteen that night, despite the fact that the impression 389 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 3: I gathered was that the motel operated almost like a 390 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 3: marketplace where people could wander around and buy drugs and 391 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 3: sex instead, IPD waited two months for the results of 392 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 3: the autopsy to come back, and even though it was 393 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 3: ruled undetermined, they closed the case anyway, much to the 394 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 3: shock of Libby's mom, Cindy. 395 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 15: In my mind, I'm thinking, shouldn't we trust our police department. 396 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 15: We started calling and they were never available and we 397 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 15: couldn't get hold of anybody. 398 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 3: As the months went by, Cindy came to the harsh 399 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 3: realization that IPD was unlikely to do anything else in 400 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 3: Libby's case. She was the only one still searching for answers. 401 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 2: I was talking to another mother who had lost a 402 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: daughter in Independence, and her daughter's death certificate said suicide, 403 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: but she knew darn well it wasn't by just the 404 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: photographs and everything her daughter been through. 405 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: The mother was a local woman named Jackie Schroer. In 406 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, her daughter Angela had also died under suspicious circumstances. 407 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 3: She was found shot in the forehead less. 408 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 13: Than two months after her death, the Shore Say police 409 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 13: told them the case was closed, suicide, end of story. 410 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: But that was just the beginning. 411 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 3: To Cindy, the Schroer's experience already felt eerily similar to 412 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: her own. 413 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 13: Almost as shocking as learning about their daughter's death, they say, 414 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 13: was learning how the Independence Police Apartment dismissed this investigation. 415 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: Dismissed was exactly how Cindy felt, and she wanted to 416 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 3: put pressure on IPD, but didn't really know where to begin. 417 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 3: So she asked Jackie. 418 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 15: I called her and I was like, what do I 419 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 15: need to do, because I believe I'm in the same 420 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 15: situation you are. And so she said, you need to 421 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 15: get your emmy records. You need to get all your 422 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 15: police records. 423 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: Have you done that yet? And I said no, I 424 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: didn't know I could do that. 425 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 15: I had no idea that you could get the reports 426 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 15: and that they were public knowledge. 427 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 3: Since Livy's case was officially closed, Cindy was able to 428 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 3: request the complete police file. This was one silver lining 429 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 3: at least, but Jackie warned her that the road ahead 430 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 3: would not be easy. 431 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 15: She started advising, me, get your stuff together, because this 432 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 15: is going to be the fight of your life. 433 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 3: At this point, Cindy knew very few solid facts about 434 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 3: Libby's death. Basically, all she had to go on was 435 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 3: what police told her the night she learned her daughter 436 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 3: had died, and so she was prepared to immerse herself 437 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: in the case file to learn everything the police saw 438 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 3: and did. But Cindy's resolve was tested almost immediately with 439 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 3: the arrival of an IPD disc containing photos of Libby's body. 440 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 15: I didn't look at it at the DVD of the 441 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 15: crime scene because I didn't want to. You can't unsee 442 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 15: something that you've looked at. 443 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 3: But Cindy also knew if she was going to get 444 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 3: to the truth of what happened to Libby, she really 445 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 3: had no other option. 446 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 7: I waited, I think about three days, and I prayed, 447 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 7: and I prepared myself, and then plugged it in early 448 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 7: one morning and watched it. I knew right then that 449 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 7: something was, you know, not right about the scene. I 450 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 7: knew the way her body was positioned. I knew just 451 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 7: by reading all the reports and seeing it, that she 452 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 7: didn't die by herself inflicted, you know. 453 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 3: As painful as it was, the process strengthened Cindy's resolve. 454 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 3: But if Cindy was going to change anyone's mind about 455 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: what happened. She needed more than just a feeling, which 456 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 3: is why she reached out to Jim Murray, the private investigator. 457 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 15: He immediately called the police station the day we hired him. 458 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 15: In the room, before we even left, he picked up 459 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 15: the phone. 460 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: He called IPD. 461 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 15: I got an appointment to talk with someone, you know, 462 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 15: and that. 463 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 2: Was more than we'd ever gotten. 464 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 3: If you were to imagine a quintessential private eye, Jim 465 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 3: Murray might not be too far off. He's tall, broad shouldered, 466 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 3: with tattoos on his forearms that peek through his rolled 467 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 3: up sleeves. He has a deep baritone voice that can 468 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 3: be imposing if it needs to be. He really was 469 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 3: the perfect person to accompany me, as you heard earlier 470 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 3: to the sports stadium in When Cindy hired Murray in 471 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 3: the summer of twenty eighteen, he was entering a new 472 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 3: phase of life after nearly four decades of investigative work. 473 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: His eyesight was failing him, and he was almost ready 474 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 3: to stop taking new cases. Almost because he still makes 475 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: time for a particular kind of client. 476 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: I have kind of retired at this point, but you know, 477 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: my passion is helping families find answers when they're not 478 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: getting answers. I've done over the years cases that are 479 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: ruled to be a suicide, and they may be a 480 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: homicide suspicious death. So it seemed like I ended up 481 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: doing a lot of those. 482 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: Murray told me his desire to help families like Libby's 483 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 3: stems from personal experience. Some years back, his own daughter 484 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 3: died under suspicious circumstances in Texas. 485 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: These tattoos on my arms tell a story, the scales 486 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: of justice that reminds me every day that the state 487 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: of Texas has failed to bring justice to my daughter 488 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: and to my family. That one right there when it 489 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: says sheep dogs never rest, somebody harmed my flock. Those 490 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: are there for a reason, and they're to remind me 491 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: every day, no matter how bad I feel, no matter 492 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: what happens, I got to get my ass up, and 493 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: I gotta go because I went to my family. If 494 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: it weren't for my daughter's case and the Libby Caswells 495 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: in the world, I'd be at my house sitting by 496 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: a swimming pool. Second on Margarita by. 497 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: Now Mary knows what it feels like to be a 498 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 3: parent desperately searching for answers, and he also knows that 499 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 3: a PI like him is often much more likely to 500 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: get information out of a police apartment then a grieving 501 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 3: family member. 502 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: Cindy struck me as somebody that was just getting stole 503 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: walled at every turn, and that's really where I came in. 504 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 3: In fact, Mary already had a pretty good relationship with 505 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 3: IPD at the time Cindy hired him. 506 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with Independence in my business. I know 507 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: a lot of their detectives and they are good people. 508 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: Do they make mistakes? Yeah? Do I always agree with 509 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: everything they do? 510 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 9: No? 511 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: And I can tell you as a private investigator, we 512 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: don't always agree with the police. That's why there are 513 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: private investigators in the world to go back and take 514 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: a look at things. 515 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 3: Five months after Libby's case was closed, Jim Maurray began 516 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: to dig through the case file that Cindy had acquired. 517 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: I met with her, looked at all the photographs and 518 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: knew right away something was definitely wrong. You got articles 519 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: scattered all over the room, You've got a nightstand drawer open, 520 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: You've got a man's broken wrist watch out on the bed. 521 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: The first thing that would probably go through my mind 522 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: under these signs of a struggle. We have a term 523 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: called JDLR, which means just don't look right for me. 524 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: The broken watch signs of a struggle. The ransacked room, 525 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: what are they looking for? Could there have been a confrontation? 526 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: So these are all things that would make it suspicious. 527 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 3: Marie was also struck by the odd position of Libby's body. 528 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,479 Speaker 3: She had been found by police in the small space 529 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: between the toilet and the bathtub, her feet slightly up 530 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 3: against the wall. 531 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: I can't see anyway the body would naturally fall in 532 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: that position from a hanging. That was the big tail 533 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: telling to me, when you open that door just a 534 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: little bit, that body's going to come down, and it's 535 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: going to fall pretty much on the left side of 536 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: the toy, because that's the direction the momentum is going 537 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: to be carrying it. Body's all the way clear on 538 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: the right side of the of the toilets. Tool just 539 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: didn't make sense. I brought this up with the police 540 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: and they said, oh, he admitted that he held her 541 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: after he found her holding somebody crying. Whatever. I get that, 542 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: you don't pick him up and lay him over here. 543 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: Let me lay you over here by the toilet out 544 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: of the way. 545 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: Murray also felt that there was a lack of evidence 546 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 3: proving that Libby had ever hanged from the bathroom door. 547 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 3: The mark on the top of the door, which IPD 548 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 3: discovered after interviewing Devin, wasn't convincing to him. He didn't 549 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 3: think there was enough damage to indicate Libby died in 550 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 3: the way Devin described. 551 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: I realized she was a small stature of person, but 552 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: those are pretty flimsy doors. If you start to lose oxygen, 553 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: your body is going to have an instinct to survive, 554 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: even if you want to kill yourself. When you start 555 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: losing oxygen, you're involuntarily going to move in some way. 556 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: I would have thought that door would have shown more 557 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: damage than just those little tool marks on the top. 558 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 3: By the time we went to the motel together, the 559 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 3: door had been replaced, so there was no way to 560 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 3: look into this further. During Maury's investigation, he also requested 561 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 3: records from IPD and got something that Cindy hadn't, a 562 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,239 Speaker 3: copy of Devin's entire interview with IPD the night of 563 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 3: Libby's death. Mariy was stunned by something that happened before 564 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 3: the questioning even began. 565 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: If you watch his police interview and listen really carefully, 566 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: the police officer walks out, and I know he did 567 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: it by design. Left him with his cell phone and 568 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: see what he did, and he called his dad. You 569 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: can hear the other end of the conversation if you 570 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: listened closely, and I actually could hear his dad saying, 571 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm not going to lie for you. And that told 572 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: me that, okay, why would you need somebody to lie 573 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: for you. 574 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 3: The audio quality on the tape isn't great, but I've 575 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 3: listened to it over and over too, and my team 576 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 3: ran it through some software to clean up the background noise. 577 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: From what I can tell, well, Marie is right. Here's 578 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 3: the critical part of their conversation. Devin says to his stepmom, 579 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 3: tell my dad to come up here and let him 580 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 3: know that I was at his house. Instead, Hey, tell. 581 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 6: My dad to come up here and let him. 582 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 8: Know that. 583 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 3: His stepmom asked him to clarify. Is Devion telling them 584 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 3: to say he was at their house after he left 585 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 3: the scene, Yeah, Devin says yes. And then his dad, 586 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 3: who's now on the line, says, quote, I can't lie 587 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 3: for you. 588 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 4: I don't need that to happen. 589 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 3: According to Libby's case file, the police never interviewed Devin's 590 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 3: dad or stepmom, never ask them if Devin had come 591 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 3: over after Libby died, like he told IPD he did. 592 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 3: I haven't been able to speak to Devon's father myself, 593 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 3: despite numerous attempts, but I was able to interview his stepmom, Jamie. 594 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 3: I don't recall that phone call. 595 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 6: I don't have a lot of recollection of that night. 596 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 13: Because honestly, I. 597 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 6: Made some bad choices, and you know, I had some 598 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 6: mind altering substances in my body in which I'm queen today, 599 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 6: but I'm queen now that I wasn't then. 600 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 3: Devon's the only one who could tell us what he 601 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 3: meant when he was talking to his parents that night, 602 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 3: But he's declined to speak with me. To my ears, 603 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 3: it sounds like he's asking them to cover for him, 604 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 3: to say he was somewhere he wasn't. This moment feels 605 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 3: like yet another missed opportunity for IPD, especially if Murray 606 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 3: is right that the police were baiting Devon by leaving 607 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 3: him alone with his phone. Why didn't they ask him 608 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 3: what he was talking about? And why didn't they interview 609 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 3: Devin's dad to corroborate Devn's story. There's another moment in 610 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 3: Devon's phone call to his parents that struck Murray as 611 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 3: right for further investigation. At one point, Devin's dad tells 612 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 3: his son that he's concerned about how Nick is acting. 613 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 3: It's hard to make out, but he says, Nick is 614 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 3: worrying me. Man, One wrong word and you're in trouble. 615 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 3: Jim Murray was suspicious of Nick's story already that he 616 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 3: happened to leave the motel just before Devin says he 617 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 3: fell asleep for over eight hours and then came right 618 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 3: back after Devon called him that night with news of 619 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 3: Libby's death. There was also this tidbit contained within the 620 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 3: initial police report. The motel clerk said that a person 621 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 3: named Nick was repeated Deadley calling while IPD was on 622 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 3: the scene, asking if the cops had left yet. Murray 623 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 3: wondered if perhaps Nick knew a lot more than he 624 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 3: was letting on, So we tracked him down in a 625 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 3: nearby county jail where he was being held for an 626 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 3: unrelated crime. This audio is pretty rough, too, but I'll 627 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 3: summarize as we go how. 628 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: You as good. 629 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 16: Thanks Jim Murray having an investigator start investigations. I want 630 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 16: to chat with you for regarding the death of Labycat's well, 631 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 16: all right, tell me what you. 632 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: Remember that day, that evening place life. 633 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 16: Last we actually arrived at like that morning. 634 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 3: Nick tells Murray a similar story to what he told IPD. 635 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 3: They checked into the sports stadium in Libby was acting 636 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 3: suicidal and then Nick left. He found out about her 637 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 3: death when Devin called him in a panic that night. 638 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,240 Speaker 16: Now was actually not too far away from the hotel 639 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 16: lays House. 640 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 3: The hotel, Nick mentioned something to Jim Murray that he 641 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 3: didn't tell IPD that he was dropped back off at 642 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 3: the motel by his brother, which is interesting because his 643 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 3: brother has actually come up a few times in my investigation. 644 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 3: He's the one that Libby said stole her car earlier 645 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 3: that week. He's also the person whose name and photo 646 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 3: were printed out on a piece of paper found in 647 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 3: room three nineteen the night Libby's body was discovered, which 648 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 3: leads me to wonder is it possible Nick's brother was 649 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 3: in the motel room too at some point? For that matter, 650 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 3: did anyone else come and go from the motel room, 651 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 3: and did Devin stay in the room the whole time? 652 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 3: As he claims, all of these questions would be easy 653 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 3: enough to answer by simply viewing the motel's security footage, 654 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 3: but we don't have it because ipd never got it. 655 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: Somebody dropped the ball. If they were just going back 656 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: and got the video, one or two things would happen. 657 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: Either the car would have stayed there all day and 658 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: not moved, which would have made his story if I 659 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: was asleep all day a little more palatable. Maybe just crashed, 660 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: but I would just about bet my best dog, and 661 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: I like her a lot that at the end of 662 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: the day you would have seen that car come and 663 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: go on video. 664 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 3: Mary believes Nick is in some way covering for Devin, 665 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 3: and at one point during their conversation he gives him 666 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 3: some friendly advice. 667 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 14: There's anything you're not telling me or anything like that, 668 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 14: don't let your loyalty come back and bite you in 669 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 14: the ass. 670 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: Nick insists that he's telling Murray everything he knows and 671 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 3: that he's genuinely heartbroken about Libby's death. 672 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 14: I will ask you a real serious question. I want 673 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 14: a straight up answer between you and me. Do you 674 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 14: think Devion killed her? What makes you so sure he didn't? 675 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 12: And I don't know any. 676 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 16: I don't seen her doing anything almost one hundred percent. 677 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 3: Jim Murray, though at the end of his year long investigation, 678 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 3: is left with the opposite impression. 679 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: In Libby Caswell's case, Oh absolutely, I'm one hundred percent 680 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 1: vince that she was murdered. 681 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 3: On the next episode of What Happened to Libby Caswell, 682 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 3: Cindy continues her fight for the truth and tracks down 683 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 3: a medical expert to weigh in on Libby's manner of death. 684 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 6: When I reviewed the documents, it was clear that the 685 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 6: physical evidence, principally the marks on Libby's neck, were not 686 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 6: consistent with the fudicental hanging. 687 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 5: They were consistent with a homicide. 688 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 3: And the Independence Police Department responds to criticisms of its investigations. 689 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 9: And I don't have that arrogant, condescending nature about me, 690 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 9: so I don't put myself on a pedestal above anybody. 691 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,240 Speaker 9: If you can come up with something or an idea, 692 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 9: something we haven't thought of, by all means, let me 693 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 9: have it. 694 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 3: What Happened to Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted 695 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,439 Speaker 3: by me Melissa Jelson, with writing and story editing by 696 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 3: Marisa Brown and Lauren Hanson. Episodes are edited by Jeremy 697 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 3: Thal and Carl Catel. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch 698 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 3: for iHeart Podcasts. Executive producers are Jason English and Katrina Norvel, 699 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 3: with our supervising producer Carl Catel. Archival material courtesy of 700 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 3: Casey TV five News. Our theme song is written by 701 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 3: Aaron Kaufman and performed by Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolfe. 702 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 3: Original music by Aaron Kaufman with additional music by Jeremy Thal. 703 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 3: Our episodes are mixed and mastered by Carl Catle. To 704 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 3: find out more about my investigation or to send a tip, 705 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 3: please email me at what Happened to libbyat gmail dot com. 706 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening.