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Speaker 1: The guys from Ping.

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Speaker 2: They've kind of showed me how much the equipment matters.

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Speaker 2: I just love that I can hit any shot.

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Speaker 3: I kind of want we're gonna be able to tell

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Speaker 3: some fun stories about what goes on here to help

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Speaker 3: golfers play better golf.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to the Pink Proving Grounds Podcast. I'm shape

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Speaker 4: Bag and that's Marty Jersey. Marty, how we doing today?

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Speaker 4: We're gonna talk a little putting. I'm struggled with my putting.

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Speaker 4: I can't make anything right now. I need the advice

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Speaker 4: for our guests.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot to putting. I think Sashow has

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Speaker 3: been doctor Sasha mackenzie has helped us in a number

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Speaker 3: of ways as an engineering brand ambassador for US, but

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Speaker 3: he's spent going deep on putting. How do you make

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Speaker 3: more putts? How do you miss less putts? And what

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Speaker 3: is the causal reason? I think that's where we want

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Speaker 3: to dive really deep with Sashow today of why you

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Speaker 3: miss putts and then tie it together to putter fitting Shane,

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Speaker 3: because that's kind of the you know, we want to

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Speaker 3: kind of tie all these different pieces together.

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Speaker 4: Sasho, I'm not making a lot of putts what am

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Speaker 4: I doing wrong? I mean, without looking at me, without

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Speaker 4: seeing my stroke, without saying the way I'm hitting it,

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Speaker 4: What is what am I most likely doing wrong? To

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Speaker 4: where I'm to Marty's point, either missing more pods, putts

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Speaker 4: are not making as many as I like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Number one reasons probably green reading. So that's a

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Speaker 2: massive chunk. At least fifty percent of miss putts are

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Speaker 2: due to green reading errors. Let's assume we're talking about

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Speaker 2: makeable putts, you know, like twelve feet and in kind

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Speaker 2: of kind of thing. Then it's probably your speed control.

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Speaker 2: If you improve that, you're gonna sink some more putts.

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Speaker 2: Then probably face angle control, so face angle variability, speed

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Speaker 2: club head speed variability, putter it speed variability, and then

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Speaker 2: it's then it's a steep drop off to things like

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Speaker 2: where the ball is hitting on the face and path,

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Speaker 2: but those those top three green reading is the biggest,

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Speaker 2: Then speed control and then face angle variability.

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Speaker 4: Esasho, how do you practice green reading? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: I mean obviously we've got green reading books and things

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Speaker 4: like that, But how does someone go out and actually

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Speaker 4: work on that part of the game. Because it makes

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Speaker 4: sense to someone like me to work on path and

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Speaker 4: to work on speed and things like that, but to

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Speaker 4: go out and actually perfect my ability to read a

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Speaker 4: green seems relatively daunting for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, then the number one thing that most people

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Speaker 2: can do that they're not doing is and this is

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Speaker 2: when I work with players, especially Mini tour players are

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Speaker 2: really good college kids. I asked them, how many different

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Speaker 2: putts do you see in your putting sessions? So you're

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Speaker 2: practically putting for an hour, how many different putts are

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Speaker 2: you hitting, like different starting positions to different holes. A

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Speaker 2: lot of them don't really know the answer, but a

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Speaker 2: lot of times it's like, well six, you know. So

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Speaker 2: the more experience you can have hitting different putts, so

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Speaker 2: you have to actually assess what are you going to

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Speaker 2: do and then consciously thinking about what happened. That's a

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Speaker 2: big thing is that most people do not know if

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Speaker 2: they've misread the putt or if they've miss executed on

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Speaker 2: the putts, so then there's no learning. So you need

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Speaker 2: to see a lot of different putts, and especially putts

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Speaker 2: where your ability to read the green matters and you

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Speaker 2: can discern it based on the outcome. So forty footers

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Speaker 2: not so much. But you know, if we're down inside

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Speaker 2: twenty feet and definitely if you're missing putts, you know,

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Speaker 2: eight to twelve feet, you should be able to say

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Speaker 2: did I execute as intended? If you did, then it's

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Speaker 2: a misread, and then you can learn. You can start

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Speaker 2: to learn. Okay, I'm underreading the speed. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: bad at judging whether the putt is uphill or downhill.

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Speaker 2: Because I hit this put as hard as I wanted to,

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Speaker 2: and I thought this is going to be close, and

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Speaker 2: you're like, whoa, you know that's that's still rolling right?

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Speaker 2: That was a misread, sash.

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Speaker 3: So this is very anecdotal, but I think we can

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Speaker 3: have Shane chime in on this because he was a

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Speaker 3: caddy at St. Andrews, done a lot of caddying in

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Speaker 3: his career. I feel like I was the best at

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Speaker 3: green reading when I was a fore caddy. I was

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Speaker 3: a fore caddy at Castle Pines in college and I

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Speaker 3: would just watch a ton of putts. I'd have to

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Speaker 3: debate Shane. You know, you know how this goes, like

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Speaker 3: should I tell the player where to actually hit it

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Speaker 3: or on underreading it for him? But I just was

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Speaker 3: maximizing the learning. I think, Sasho, Shane, what are your

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Speaker 3: thoughts on that from your experience Caddy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I mean Sasha made a great point about

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Speaker 4: the lengthy putts. I mean, Caddy and at St. Andrews,

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Speaker 4: you know you'd have a guy having eighty footer. I

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Speaker 4: mean it's not I'm not gonna give you a whole

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Speaker 4: lot of help in terms of speed. I can maybe

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Speaker 4: give you a line, but yeah, I couldn't agree with

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Speaker 4: you more Marty in terms of being on the back

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Speaker 4: for someone and watching a whole lot of different point

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Speaker 4: of putts. I mean sashow bringing up the idea of

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Speaker 4: a great player saying I hit six putts on the

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Speaker 4: practice screen and a half hour, and then you think

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Speaker 4: about going out on the golf course in real time

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Speaker 4: and how many puts you might face in around of golf.

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Speaker 4: I mean there's a chance you might face eighteen different putts, right,

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Speaker 4: I mean, there are a whole lot of different ones

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Speaker 4: out there. But Marty, I think you're spot on and

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Speaker 4: the idea of when you're watching someone else do it,

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Speaker 4: it feels like you learn a lot more than when

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Speaker 4: you're actually doing it yourself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Sasha, I think you also brought up something interesting there,

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Speaker 3: which is that path is not too big of a

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Speaker 3: factor to necessarily practice. So what are those kind of

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Speaker 3: like ballflight laws of a putt and why is it

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Speaker 3: exactly that a golfer should be focusing way more on

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Speaker 3: minimizing their face variability than their path variability?

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Speaker 2: Right, So what I look at is you want to

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Speaker 2: know from just a straight up physics standpoint. Okay, let's

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Speaker 2: say we're hitting a twelve foot putt. Just pick a putt,

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Speaker 2: straight flat twelve foot putt to pick one, So we can,

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Speaker 2: you know, set up some boundaries here, some understanding. Well,

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Speaker 2: you have to have your face angle be plus or

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Speaker 2: minus or sorry, your path be plus or minus three

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Speaker 2: and a half degrees to miss that twelve footer in

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Speaker 2: order to pull the ball far enough off your intended

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Speaker 2: start line. So you have to take the physics and

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Speaker 2: then say, okay, well what is a golfer's variability and path?

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Speaker 2: You need to look at both. So okay, is this

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Speaker 2: something that if I improve it will make a difference.

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Speaker 2: The worst putters that come through my lab do not

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Speaker 2: have have path variabilities that get plus or minus three

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Speaker 2: point five. Tour players are within plus or minus one.

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Speaker 2: So grinding on on nailing your path improving your path

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Speaker 2: is not going to move the needle and sinking more putts.

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Speaker 2: So I look at just since you brought a path,

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Speaker 2: but there are really four things that are predominantly under

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Speaker 2: the control the golfer. You've got path variability, face angle variability,

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Speaker 2: impact spot variability in the face of whether you're hitting

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Speaker 2: it off the toe the heel out of the center

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Speaker 2: high or low. And speed variability. And so you look at, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: how far let's take impact spot variability out of this

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Speaker 2: away from the center of the face. Do I need

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Speaker 2: to be before I miss that twelve foot putt? And

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Speaker 2: it is like plus or minus half an inch? Okay,

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Speaker 2: before you're going to start to miss a twelve inch putt.

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Speaker 2: And then you say, well, where am I at? How

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Speaker 2: many if I hit one hundred and twelve foot putts,

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Speaker 2: how many of those impact spots are going to be

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Speaker 2: outside plus or minus half an inch? And the answer

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Speaker 2: is zero. Right, Your directional miss is going to be

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Speaker 2: two percent of put length for every one centimeter outside

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Speaker 2: the impact spot. So you know, twelve foot pot one

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Speaker 2: hundred and forty four inches, you go, what's two percent

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Speaker 2: of that that? You know? If you go to the

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Speaker 2: extreme of how terribly you can miss a pot on

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Speaker 2: the putter face. It's it's accounting for virtually nothing left

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Speaker 2: or right of the hole, and it's only one percent

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Speaker 2: of rollout distance, so one hundred and forty four inches,

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Speaker 2: well one percent of that. I mean, the impact spot

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Speaker 2: variability gets completely washed out by face angle variability and

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Speaker 2: putter head speed variability. So that's when I say, what

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Speaker 2: should a person work on? Green reading is really important

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Speaker 2: seeing as many potts as you possibly can with different

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Speaker 2: slopes and brakes, and quantifying whether you misread it. But

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Speaker 2: then that same type of practice will benefit your speed control. Right,

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Speaker 2: you want to hone in your speed control. Okay, let's

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Speaker 2: hit a downhill pott. That's you know left right now

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Speaker 2: we're going uphill from fifteen feet now we're going side hill.

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Speaker 2: You start to that's the best way to get a

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Speaker 2: better sense of your speed controls to hit lots of

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Speaker 2: different putts to see it. You know, can you judge

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Speaker 2: those those speeds. Don't do drills are going to work

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Speaker 2: to reduce your very building path, to reduce your very

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Speaker 2: the impact spot. There's just not going to be any

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Speaker 2: gains to be had from improving those things.

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Speaker 1: Sasho.

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Speaker 4: How did you get into this world? I mean, I

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Speaker 4: mean listening to you talk has already opened up my

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Speaker 4: brain a bit. I mean the fact that you're telling

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Speaker 4: me I can hit a bad putt and still make

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Speaker 4: it if I've read the putt correctly makes me the

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Speaker 4: weight is lifted off my shoulders. Hearing you talk about

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Speaker 4: putting is amazing already. How did you get into this world?

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Speaker 2: I think I'm really drawn to it for two reasons. One,

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Speaker 2: there's not a put out there and any green that

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Speaker 2: any golfer can't sink. There are a million different shots

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Speaker 2: that only the best players in the world can hit.

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Speaker 2: You know you're going to try to carry a bunker

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Speaker 2: at three twenty, Well, that's eliminated just about everybody in

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Speaker 2: the planet. But everybody has the ability to sink every putts,

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Speaker 2: So that that's very attractive to me from like, hey, like,

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Speaker 2: let's see what we can ofpud. The other thing is

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Speaker 2: that it seems like there is a ton of room

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Speaker 2: for improvement. So if you took someone who's not into

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Speaker 2: golf and you watch them, you said, let's let's watch

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Speaker 2: Scotty Scheffler here hit this drive. You know, a hero

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Speaker 2: world challenge, and you said, are you impressed by that?

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Speaker 2: Everybody like holy smokes, like they'd be so impressed by

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Speaker 2: how far the ball goes. And then if you took

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Speaker 2: him on a putting green and you said, okay, here's

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Speaker 2: an eight foot putt. What percentage of these do you

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Speaker 2: think Scotty Scheffler's sinking? And they'd say, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I just watched, like I hit probably like ninety nine percent.

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Speaker 2: Like you know, this this hole is like barely any

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Speaker 2: distance away, and you're like, well, he'd be doing good

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Speaker 2: to make half of his putts from here. So it's

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Speaker 2: like what you know, and if you go into a

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Speaker 2: lab situation, you can get players sinking nearly one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent of his eight footers. So there's a massive you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a massive potential there, I think to improve in

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Speaker 2: the putting green. And maybe I'm being a bit naive,

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Speaker 2: but I think that someone could come along and separate

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Speaker 2: themselves with putting to the same degree that say, you know,

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Speaker 2: Bryson did a few years ago with driving, or Rory's

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Speaker 2: you know kind of does with driving. But you know,

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Speaker 2: we haven't quite seen that with putting on a consistent basis.

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Speaker 2: So those are the two reasons. Is that it seems

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Speaker 2: like there's a lot of potential and everybody can do it.

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Speaker 4: Marty, it's so interesting to think about. I've never thought

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Speaker 4: about that before. Where you know, if you and I

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Speaker 4: go to the Masters and we go stand where Bobba

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Speaker 4: hit the shot on ten, I mean there's seven people

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Speaker 4: on the planet. They're going to hit up ye pull

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Speaker 4: you know, a pull hook gap wedge to twenty five feet.

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Speaker 4: But if you go stand on the back of the

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Speaker 4: eighteenth of Tory in theory A. Sasha's point, everybody can

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Speaker 4: make the putt raw mate. I mean, you know, you

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Speaker 4: get it on the right line with the right speed,

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Speaker 4: it's going to go in. I mean, I've never I've

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Speaker 4: never thought about that before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is fun to think about, and I like that, Sasha.

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Speaker 3: What he brings to us is an engineering ambassador. Is

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Speaker 3: this first principles thinking right. It's just like some of

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Speaker 3: the the concepts are obvious in hindsight, Sasho, now that

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Speaker 3: we've established the importance of face angle and delivered face angle,

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Speaker 3: let's talk about how we can affect that with the

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Speaker 3: putter right. Sure, and I think a big thing our

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Speaker 3: founder and a ping we've always known is that hey,

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Speaker 3: you know, if you have more arc in your stroke,

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Speaker 3: you generally do better with the more toe down putter,

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Speaker 3: less arc, more face balanced putter. Can you dive into

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Speaker 3: a little bit of why that is and the kinetics

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Speaker 3: and kinematics that connection and expand upon that a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, so. I think there's there's two ways you

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Speaker 2: can you can measure or what you can look at

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Speaker 2: in terms of a of an outcome of what the

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Speaker 2: putter is doing to decide whether a putter is going

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Speaker 2: to be better fit a better fit for you. You've

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Speaker 2: got reducing the variability yep, so being more consistent with it,

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Speaker 2: and that's I think predominantly when we're fitting for a

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Speaker 2: stroke type. That's what we're trying to do. So this

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Speaker 2: is a little bit theoretical, This is kind of a

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Speaker 2: getting a bit into my opinion, but I you know,

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Speaker 2: I still think it's a pretty cool way to think

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Speaker 2: of it. You have folks that tend to put a

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Speaker 2: little bit more straight back, straight through, and they tend

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Speaker 2: to putt better with a face balanced style putter, where

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Speaker 2: you know, if you balance on your finger, the face

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Speaker 2: is pointing to the sky. These putters inherently give very

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Speaker 2: little feedback if you rotate them in your hands, because

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Speaker 2: the center of mass is very close to the shaft.

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Speaker 2: And I think there are a lot of folks who

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Speaker 2: don't want to feel the face opening and closing or

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Speaker 2: get any sensation of that. They set up an address

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Speaker 2: and they think, Okay, I've got this putter face pointing

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Speaker 2: where I want. I want to make my stroke. I

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Speaker 2: just want to know that if I don't do anything,

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Speaker 2: the putter doesn't do anything, this thing's going to be

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Speaker 2: delivered square. And those folks tend to do better with

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Speaker 2: a face balanced putter. Then you have people who inherently

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Speaker 2: like to feel the face opening closing. They want to

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Speaker 2: feel that that mass moving or so they have some

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Speaker 2: natural arcs, natural opening and closing of the face, and

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Speaker 2: you can enhance that feel with a putter that is

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Speaker 2: toe hang so. And that's where you'll see if you

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Speaker 2: go through like the putting sizes I've done in my lab,

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Speaker 2: and you know it happened at ping for a number

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Speaker 2: of years. Those putters that like to have some arc

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Speaker 2: in their stroke or tend to smark on the stroke,

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Speaker 2: they like little more feel. They do better with a

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Speaker 2: toe hang face balance better for the straight back straight through.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's one way to look at it. But

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Speaker 2: then I think some really low hanging fruit is addressing biases.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of people don't realize, but as you

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Speaker 2: go through the course of a round of golf or

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Speaker 2: a practice session, you might miss sixty five percent of

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Speaker 2: your putts to the right, and that's enough to make

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Speaker 2: a difference. You want to be fifty to fifty right.

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Speaker 2: You want to be in have that middle of the

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Speaker 2: bell curve of your misses be centered on the whole.

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Speaker 2: But you know, if it's sixty five thirty five, that's

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Speaker 2: not enough for us to remember right as we go

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Speaker 2: we're focusing on other things. It's tough to mentally if

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Speaker 2: you miss one hundred percent. Yeah, you're like, okay, I've

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Speaker 2: missed every put to the right, but it's tough to track.

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Speaker 2: So those systematic biases can kind of go on notice.

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Speaker 2: But hopefully you've done something where you pick up on

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Speaker 2: that right. Hey, i'm a right handed putter. I'm missing

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Speaker 2: everything out to the right. So we've done some really

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Speaker 2: neat studies showing that you can address those biases with

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Speaker 2: your putter type, and it seems like, well, we know

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Speaker 2: that toe hang putters, so uh, putters that have the

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Speaker 2: center mass off the shaft right, you're gonna tend to

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Speaker 2: leave the face a little bit more open at impact.

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Speaker 2: And that goes right across the board for pretty much everybody.

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Speaker 2: So if you tend to pull your putts, you're your

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Speaker 2: missing putts to the left. Hey, let's move you into

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Speaker 2: a toe hang we can address that bias. Your stroke

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Speaker 2: feels good, you don't want to start changing your stroke. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's just go to a toe hang putter. Similarly, if

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Speaker 2: you tend to be you know, missing your putts the

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Speaker 2: other way, you tend to be pulling your putts, go

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Speaker 2: to a toe hang putter that's going to tend to

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Speaker 2: leave the face a little bit more open. I think

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Speaker 2: I've said those correct.

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Speaker 3: So, Sasha, is just a wrap a bow on these

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Speaker 3: two concepts. Here one would be and we've seen this

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Speaker 3: with iping. We have our consistency score that incentivized as

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Speaker 3: being more repeatable, and we can measure do a b

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Speaker 3: testing with different putters. We've seen it time and time again.

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Speaker 3: Like you said, if a player wants to feel less

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Speaker 3: resistance or the putter kind of feeling like it's going

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Speaker 3: to stay more square through the stroke. They have generally

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Speaker 3: a higher repeatability score. We can measure that, we can

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Speaker 3: we can improve the repeatability. That's number one, trying to

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Speaker 3: match the balance of the putter to what they're kind

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Speaker 3: of innately like the feel of. And then number two,

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Speaker 3: we can we can adjust the delivered face angle, which

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Speaker 3: will affect the face delivery. And because we know face

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Speaker 3: angle is is the primary thing we want to influence there.

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Speaker 3: We can eliminate a pull by playing a more toe

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Speaker 3: down putter, eliminate pushes, reduced pushes by playing more face

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Speaker 3: balanced putter.

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Speaker 1: You got it?

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Speaker 3: And why is that? Why is it that the face

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Speaker 3: is delivered more open? Uh, if you play more toe

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Speaker 3: down putter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And this this comes down to the kinetics, so

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Speaker 2: that the forces and torques that the golfers applying to

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Speaker 2: the club. So I'll try my best to do this

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Speaker 2: on a podcast, but there is a natural tendency of

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Speaker 2: you the center of mass off the shaft. When you

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Speaker 2: start your stroke, you're applying a force on the grip

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Speaker 2: away from the target that's actually going to tend to

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Speaker 2: close the face. So if your toe hang, the face

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Speaker 2: is going to start to close more in the backstroke

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Speaker 2: than the face balanced. And then what's interesting is then

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Speaker 2: from there on it's gonna be lagging the face balanced,

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Speaker 2: and it's going to get even more exaggerate. So as

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Speaker 2: you transition into your forward stroke, now you're applying a

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Speaker 2: force towards the target, and that starts to swing the

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Speaker 2: putter more open. So the towinguter is going to start

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Speaker 2: to open up more than the face balance. Okay, and

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Speaker 2: so now it's lagging in this open position. What's very

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Speaker 2: interesting is that that's going to be maintained all the

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Speaker 2: way up to impact so that it never catches up

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Speaker 2: to the face bounce. It's actually going to remain more open.

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Speaker 2: But what's interesting is that the rate that it's closing.

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Speaker 2: And so, I mean, I don't know whether this is

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Speaker 2: like a subconscious thing where folks realize who you know,

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Speaker 2: they're not perceiving it, but they're trying to close it faster,

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Speaker 2: or it's just just a reaction that you know, they're

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Speaker 2: not even controlling themselves. But the rate of face clothing

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Speaker 2: is faster at impact with the toe hang, so's it's open,

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Speaker 2: but it's trying to catch up. So that's the cause

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Speaker 2: for that face to be a little bit more open

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Speaker 2: with the toe hang hutter, and it's important to point

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Speaker 2: out that that's not a bad thing. You might actually

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Speaker 2: overclose with the face balance, so you need that little

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Speaker 2: bit of open bias.

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Speaker 4: Sasha, how important is it for people to maybe give

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Speaker 4: multiple putters a try, I mean to I mean, obviously

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Speaker 4: going through fitting is important and use an iping, but

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Speaker 4: to get those feels that you're talking about, to kind

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Speaker 4: of see throughout the options that maybe ping has available

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Speaker 4: to see maybe what you're describing on the pod.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think that, you know, Pink does an

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Speaker 2: awesome job with the putter fitting. It pushes you very

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Speaker 2: strongly in a direction, but when it comes right down

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Speaker 2: to you, you do really want to try a couple

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Speaker 2: of putters, you know. Yeah, I firmly believe in that.

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Speaker 2: So there's there's always going to be someone who, you know,

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Speaker 2: if if you're not comfortable with it, it's probably not

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Speaker 2: going to work in the long term. It's tough to

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Speaker 2: really start to love a putter over time if you

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Speaker 2: don't like it, you know, within the first few days.

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Speaker 2: So I think that especially if you have you know,

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Speaker 2: you're like, I could use either of these, Hey, great

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Speaker 2: reason to go with the fitting, and the fitting is

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Speaker 2: certainly going to give you an excellent head start. But

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Speaker 2: I think I think testing out one or the other

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Speaker 2: is you know, we're both is obviously the best way

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Speaker 2: to go.

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Speaker 3: Sasha. We've had fun doing studies in our lab and

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Speaker 3: then you duplicate them in your lab and we don't

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Speaker 3: share results until until we both kind of completed them,

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Speaker 3: and that's kind of like two factor confirmation on our

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Speaker 3: our findings. One of them we did was on putter offset.

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Speaker 3: I know that's something you know a lot of the

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Speaker 3: golf world and you know, folks who followed the Proving

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Speaker 3: Grounds podcast probably curious about. So give us a little

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Speaker 3: overview and that that study we did a few years

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Speaker 3: back on a putter with more and less offset and

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Speaker 3: what we saw and maybe some of the again the

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Speaker 3: kinetics reasons for the findings there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the offset is a really interesting one where

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Speaker 2: the first study of ping was done mostly with iping,

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Speaker 2: and I use a motion capture camera, so I get

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Speaker 2: a little bit different data, some of the little bit

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Speaker 2: we'd say even extra data in terms of what's happening

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Speaker 2: it's set up, and with the iping data, it was

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Speaker 2: pretty clear that if you play with more offset, you

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Speaker 2: are more likely to start the ball to the left.

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Speaker 2: You're right handed, part of your start line, your facing,

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Speaker 2: the impact, everything's going to be a little bit left bias.

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Speaker 2: And the question was, okay, well this is showing up

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Speaker 2: an iping is it's something that's happening in the stroke

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Speaker 2: that would be my flinch. What was interesting is that

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Speaker 2: when I repeated this study in my lab, I saw

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Speaker 2: the same thing. It was actually and I will add,

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Speaker 2: you deliver more loft and you start the putt more left.

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Speaker 2: But what's interesting is that those biases are pre set

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Speaker 2: at address, and it's not something that the golfer is

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Speaker 2: obviously conscious of. So when I run tests, I'll have

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Speaker 2: participant number one will come in and they will hit

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Speaker 2: five putts with a putter that has offset, and then

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Speaker 2: they'll hit five putts with no offset, and they'll go

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Speaker 2: back and forth in these blocks. Participant number two will

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Speaker 2: start with a different condition first and they alternate throughout

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Speaker 2: the So we try to remove biases. We try to

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Speaker 2: have a nice balance study design, and this effect shows up.

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Speaker 2: But it's actually unlike predominantly unlike the toe hang versus

430
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 2: face balance, which is a thing that happens during the

431
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 2: stroke and interacts with the kinetics. The offset is more

432
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 2: of a visual thing that the player tends to adjust

433
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 2: to an address and then it stays in the stroke,

434
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 2: which is very interesting. That seems to be the dominant effect, Sawsho.

435
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 4: I've got a dumb question that I figured you'd be

436
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 4: a perfect person to ask, Why is it that? And

437
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 4: I don't do this anymore because it just doesn't work

438
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 4: for me in my putting. Why is it that when

439
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 4: I put a line on my ball, I line the

440
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 4: ball up perfectly where I think the break's going to

441
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 4: be In all that, when I stand over the ball

442
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 4: with the putter, why does it at times not feel

443
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 4: like it's directed where it should be directed. Because I've

444
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 4: talked about this with a lot of my buddies, especially

445
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 4: my good playing buddies, and you know, it's a real debate.

446
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: Do you use the line? Do you not use the line?

447
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 4: Why is that something that happens to us golfers when

448
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 4: you get over the putt and you feel like the

449
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 4: line's not not accurate.

450
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: Well, the reason is how we've evolved to use vision

451
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 2: and when our eyes are over the ball and we're

452
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 2: looking down at a line to sum it up. You know,

453
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: it is not a great way to line something up

454
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: with you with your eyes exactly exactly, no one would

455
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: ever shoot a gun point being, you know, holding the

456
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,719
Speaker 2: gun below them, you know, the way you have your

457
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 2: line on the ball and be like, right, I am

458
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: going I definitely like snipers aren't like you know you're

459
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 2: featuring me.

460
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 1: That you would be.

461
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have very limited ability, so that I mean,

462
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 2: that's the short answer. Why is that we have not

463
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 2: evolved to try in if you know we're chasing down

464
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: prey or trying to you know, things over time, get

465
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: away from something you know, we want to be behind it,

466
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: lining it up, whether we're throwing a projectile or lining

467
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 2: up a gun, you know, without getting into the reasons

468
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: behind how our vision works.

469
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, so trust it. It's it's trust the

470
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 4: line you put on the ball when you set it down.

471
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 4: Don't trust in theory your eyes that are seeing something

472
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: that's not not accurate or it's like you said, your

473
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: vision is telling you something different.

474
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: Right, And I think you can if you work hard

475
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 2: and have some trust, you can calibrate yourself to believe

476
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 2: that that is straight. You know, That's one thing that

477
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: our vision is potentially good at is we can adapt.

478
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 2: You know, our vision will will start to adjust. It's

479
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: also sometimes you know, your alignment can drift over time

480
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 2: as well, because you know you can get these biases

481
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,719
Speaker 2: can work in, and that's that's why we end up,

482
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,959
Speaker 2: you know, having alignment rods to prevent that bias from

483
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: drifting in, so you can you can recalibrate. So you know,

484
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 2: if you work hard hard enough out of chain, I

485
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 2: think you can start to make that line on the ball.

486
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 2: Look right as you're standing over it, Marty.

487
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 4: This came up so much with the Jordan speedth phenomenon

488
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 4: early in his career when you would, you know, look

489
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 4: at the hole right, and it was you know, Steph

490
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 4: Curry's not you know, he's looking at the bass right,

491
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 4: He's not looking in theory at the ball.

492
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: And I feel like that was a debate.

493
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 4: And of course I know Jordan's bounced back and forth

494
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 4: with that, but I mean you're thinking that's six foot circle, right,

495
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 4: I mean five foot circle scoring circle, and almost Jordan's

496
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 4: theory or you know what he used to win golf

497
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 4: tournaments was such a different idea, yet it was something

498
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 4: that works in almost every other sport or every other

499
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 4: you know, athletic feet out there right.

500
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 3: Sasha has done a little bit of research on this, Sastra,

501
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: I heard. I don't know if it's true, but over

502
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: half your town putts heads up putting up there. But

503
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 3: tell us about your your research and heads up putting,

504
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 3: your find your your kind of academic findings behind it,

505
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 3: and uh and where you where you stand currently on

506
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 3: on uh this this technique heads up putting versus not?

507
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: Do you putt heads up? Sasha?

508
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: I absolutely putt heads up? Okay, and it feels so

509
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: wrong to putt heads down. Now. I have a million

510
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 2: anecdotes and thoughts on this, but let me start with

511
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: a stat that eighty percent of the golfers that come

512
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: through my lab end up putting meaningfully better heads up.

513
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 2: And these are golfers, you know, they could been playing

514
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: golf for thirty years, they could be scratch handicaps, and

515
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 2: they think I'm crazy to even have them attempt this.

516
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: So what's the motivation. I've done three three really solid

517
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: studies looking at heads up putting? Now, what was the

518
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: motivation for that? Well, it comes from, as Mary would say,

519
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: first principles it's like, well what matters? What what can

520
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: I do to sink more putts? What are we under

521
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: the control of putter? Head? Speed variability is massive? Right,

522
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: so what can we do to improve our speed control?

523
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: And what are currently people doing that are really hindering that.

524
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: So if anybody who's listening to this, ball up a

525
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 2: piece of paper, grab a pan, a set of keys,

526
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: wherever you got in the desk, find the garbage can

527
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: and go, okay, I'm gonna fire something in the garbage

528
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: can over here. But then look down. And there's been

529
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: research that is shown outside of golf, but as soon

530
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: as you stop looking at a at a target, our

531
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 2: memory of how far that target is begins to exponentially decay.

532
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 2: So that's why even if you see some of the

533
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: best golfers like Aaron Baddeley, when he hits a putt

534
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: I remember trying to film him at Whisper Rock once

535
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 2: he wasn't. I was just on the side of the green,

536
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 2: you know, kind of covertly filming, and I missed the

537
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: first two attempts because he starts his stroke as his

538
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 2: head's coming back to the ball, so he's minimizing that

539
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: decay time. Now some golfers probably have a really good

540
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: ability to do that. Vast majority of us do not.

541
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 2: So in the research, I would look at not just

542
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: the number of putts that were made, but I looked at, Okay,

543
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: when you're putting heads up versus head down, what happens

544
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: to your variability and impact spot path, face angle and

545
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: speed and what you see as a reduction in speed

546
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: control variability, a little bit of increase in impact spot variability,

547
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: but that doesn't matter. It gets completely washed out by

548
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 2: speed control going up. And you know, there's lots of

549
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: clues in other sports. A hockey player, where there's way

550
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: more going on, you know, in terms of the pucks

551
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: moving around on the blade. Ninety percent of the things

552
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: they do when they're shooting passing, their head is up.

553
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 2: Basketball shooting you would never look down. And some people

554
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: say was shooting a basketball? Yeah, but that's because I'm

555
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: holding the ball. You know, I'm not trying to impact it.

556
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: But then you look at billiards. The best billiards players

557
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: they don't look at the cue ball. They look at

558
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: where they want the cueball to go. And that's you know,

559
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: so you have two targets. In golf, you're trying to

560
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 2: hit the golf ball, but you're also trying to project

561
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: it to a second target. And everybody should really try

562
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: heads up hutting, and so quickly, if I was going

563
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 2: to give somebody, you know, okay, what do I do

564
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: to heads up hutt your routine doesn't change. Everything's exactly

565
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 2: the same. And let's both of you caddied. So if

566
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: I was like asking a caddy, hey, you know, where

567
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: should I start this putt, you'd be like a cup

568
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: outside left and universally that is understood that that is

569
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: your start line. Right, that is the line I want

570
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: to start the ball on. So what I say is, okay,

571
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: nothing changes your routine, get up over the ball. When

572
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: you bring your head down for the final time, you

573
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: don't start your stroke. Then you look. You imagine a

574
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: laser line coming out of that putter face, and you

575
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: just follow it to the hole. And where that laser

576
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 2: line would pass closest to the hole, that's what you

577
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: stare at and you think, I'm just going to roll

578
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: the ball over that spot. That's how your heads up putt.

579
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: So you know, if you think, okay, this is a

580
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: foot of right edge stair at the right edge and

581
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: go I'm gonna roll this putt over the right edge,

582
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: and people put better, and then even starting to look

583
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: at things like head movement. So head movement there's it's

584
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: called alo centric heven. So the best putters tend to

585
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: move their head ace like in the opposite direction to

586
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: the putter. And it's small movements, but still that's that's

587
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: correlated with better putting. There's a motor control researcher from

588
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: Canon and Timothy Lee that's showing that you putt heads up,

589
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: you tend to have you're more in line with that

590
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 2: that style head move and the magnitude of your head

591
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: movement is also smaller. So two things, your head moves less,

592
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: the movement it does have is more in line with

593
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: the better putter. And there's all sorts of other cool

594
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: things that you know, for people that struggle with putting,

595
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: it takes your mind off of mechanical thoughts. It becomes

596
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: more of a feel. You're you're less concerned about what

597
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: exactly the putter's doing.

598
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 4: Sasho, I did it for I did it for six

599
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 4: months a few years back. I noticed the thing I

600
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 4: noticed the most with it was I would hit the

601
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 4: five six foot putts right kind of the scoring putts.

602
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 4: I felt like I hit them with a lot of speed,

603
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 4: Like I hit them and I made them.

604
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: With a lot of speed versus to your point.

605
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 4: If you're standing over the putt, you're looking down at it,

606
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: you know it's a quick potter, it's moving away from

607
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: I'm a left handed putter, maybe it's poop into my

608
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 4: left and you're kind of trying to drip it on

609
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 4: the right side. I noticed that when I was putting

610
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 4: well face up, I was hitting those putts in the

611
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 4: hole and they were going in with like serious make speed,

612
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 4: the kind of make speed that you want to hit

613
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 4: putts with in the first place.

614
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: Nice one point seven to four miles per hour.

615
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: Is that the perfect make speed? Yeah.

616
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: The question on this is would an alternative be to

617
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 3: do something a little bit more Let's say I don't

618
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: not comfortable going one hundred percent heads up? Would a

619
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 3: more air and badley approach where you try to reduce

620
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: that time? I feel like I've done good with that

621
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 3: in terms of my routine. Would that Would that be

622
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: a viable kind of alternative? Maybe next best?

623
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yep. If you're not comfortable with the heads up,

624
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: then that's the way to go is that? Okay, I've decided,

625
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: you know, this is the putt I want to execute

626
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: heads down? Where you go?

627
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: Gotcha? Gotcha?

628
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: Are you putting every put heads up? Sasha?

629
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 4: Are you doing I mean thirty footers everything like that?

630
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely?

631
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 3: Ok.

632
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: And it gets very different when you are executing a

633
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: pitch shot or a chip shot, because then impact spot

634
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: becomes very, you know, a lot more important, and your

635
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: lies change a lot, your stance changes a lot. On

636
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: the putting green, the ball is never stopping anywhere that

637
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: has more than a you know, a four percent slow

638
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: four percent is probably even getting extreme. So your setup

639
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: is always the same. The ball is always in the

640
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: same spot, your feet are always you know, feeling the

641
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: same weight distribution. And it's interesting me that we're looking down,

642
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: but that information is always the same in every put

643
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: The information from the putt to the hole is what

644
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: we want to react to, you know. That's that's the information,

645
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: and that's why most of our practice strokes are taken

646
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: looking up. We're trying to, you know, get a sense

647
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: for what that is, and then we look down. So

648
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: when I putt heads down, now, it's just it's like

649
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: it feels the same as everybody that's listening. When you

650
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: go to throw something in the garbage, can you look?

651
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: That's what it feels like to me. You know. I

652
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: was just talking to P and M from uh Vision

653
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: fifty four and they said, Anica tried it a long

654
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: time ago and she made eighty four in a row

655
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: from twelve feet whoa, And they said, so, yeah, so

656
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: were you gonna Are you gonna take this to the course.

657
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: He's like, no, everybody's gonna be looking at me. Funny,

658
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, so she didn't. But it's like, wow,

659
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: that's that's a lot of putts in a row before,

660
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: you know, got some confidence, Marty.

661
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: You know what I'm doing after this podcast?

662
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: Oh, I know, we go back back.

663
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: I'm going to like the next hour and a half

664
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 4: just faced up pudding every pot.

665
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: I've got all the putting grid. It's happening.

666
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Sasha, what about uh what about the topic of

667
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: uphillers versus downhillers? What would you rather have? You know, uh,

668
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: downhill eight footer versus uphill eight footer? What are some

669
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: of the considerations there? You know, maybe talk a little

670
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 3: bit about some of exploring that both theoretically and then

671
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 3: maybe with some some measured empirical data.

672
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've got two fantastic data sets to look

673
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: at this so when I do putter testing. So actually

674
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: with I did a combined heads up versus heads down

675
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: and toe hang versus face balanced study. It was over

676
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: two days. Golfers hit ninety six putch eats various combinations

677
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: of conditions, and two of the holes were straight uphill

678
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: eight footer in a straight downhill eight footer, and everything

679
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 2: was using motion capture so we would make sure the

680
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: green is perfectly calibrated. We hit the ball, we tracked

681
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: the ball, and we'd just agreed to make sure that

682
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: these two putts, the eight foot uphill and the dela

683
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: are absolutely dead straight, no question. Significantly more putts were

684
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: made on the eight foot downhiller compared to the eight

685
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 2: foot upliatter wasn't close meaningful difference in percentage of make putts.

686
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: Then fast forward to now with stack putting, where we

687
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: have you know, I think we're probably getting close to

688
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 2: a million potts and we can look at Okay, we're

689
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: telling people to go hit a straight uphill eight footer,

690
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 2: a straight downhill eight footer, and it's reversed uphill potts

691
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: are easier than downhill putts. You're more likely to make

692
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: an uphill putt in reality, and there's a subtle difference

693
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: here in the lab. I've got a dot on the

694
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 2: green saying this is where you're gonna hit your putt from,

695
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: and you're hitting it to this hole, and you know

696
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: that it is dead downhill. You know that it is

697
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: perfectly uphill, okay, Whereas in stack putting and in reality

698
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: on the golf course, you go, I think this is

699
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: straight uphill or I think this is straight downhill. And

700
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: that's the subtle difference. If you if you go, okay,

701
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: this is uphill, you have to hit this a little firmer,

702
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: so it is it's traveling for less time, you're going

703
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: to be more aggressive with it, and there's a chance

704
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 2: that it's not perfectly uphill okay, So that versus downhill. Again,

705
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: you don't really know if this is exactly downhill. And

706
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: you also have to hit it with a little bit

707
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: less speed, so that takes a little more of the

708
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: very building in the green is going to come into

709
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: the ball kind of meandering left or right. So it's

710
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: interesting to see how those two things flip in practice

711
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: give me the uphill eight footer.

712
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 3: What would you rather have to win your club championship?

713
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 3: A six foot or straight up hill or a six

714
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: foot slider downhill left or right? And why and why.

715
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: They're both the same distance? Six feet?

716
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, six feet.

717
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: Give me the up Yeah, the straight uphill putt. Just

718
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 2: based on all of that data, you know, people are

719
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: making more uphill putts.

720
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, quick to answer that one. It's like, I'll take

721
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 4: the I could be I can maybe let go a

722
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 4: little bit more now.

723
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: If someone told me, now, that's interesting. If someone told me,

724
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 2: also knowing what I know, they said this is one

725
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: hundred percent straight down the hill, then I take the

726
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: downhill putt.

727
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 3: Well, if it's a slider downhill left or right?

728
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm avoiding the slider. Okay, I'm avoiding the

729
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 2: slider unless it's at least two feet closer. If it's

730
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: you know, if it's closer, I'm taking the slider. Distance

731
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: is still king. I'm taking the five foot slider over

732
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 2: the seven foot that I think is straight up hill.

733
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's a pretty fun inside and putting

734
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 3: is uh yeah, just being closer to the hole. It

735
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 3: means everything, right, Sosha.

736
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 4: Absolutely that's been proven throughout the bag, right. I mean

737
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 4: that was the whole kind of flip in the way

738
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 4: even professional golf was twenty five years ago versus now

739
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 4: where Now I'll tell you this, Marty playing in the

740
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 4: amateur this past year and playing those practice rounds with

741
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,479
Speaker 4: the players and diving into the data there and how

742
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: they go about their business. It's simply it's driver here

743
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 4: because this data tells us it's driving right. And rarely

744
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 4: are you seeing those level of players hitting anything less

745
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 4: than driver off of tea unless it just tightens up

746
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 4: up there. I mean, it has sinned it all day,

747
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 4: every day. And I mean same thing in terms of putting.

748
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 4: It sounds like saus show is it's as long as

749
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 4: you're closer, no matter how much movement's involved, take the

750
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 4: closer putt.

751
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the more important point there is that you

752
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: do not have enough control to guarantee you're If you're

753
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: guaranteeing the uphill putt, then you're also guaranteeing it's going

754
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: to be further away.

755
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 4: You know, why why do we not see more pros

756
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 4: do face up? I mean, I know the Onica story

757
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 4: and we talked about Jordan speed, but why does it like,

758
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 4: it seems like someone would take this on and the

759
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 4: fact that we haven't really seen a single modern player

760
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 4: kind of subscribe to what you're saying. You've got half

761
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 4: a talent doing, you know, kind of following along with

762
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 4: your data and your philosophies. Why is this not kind

763
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 4: of bled into the pro game?

764
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that on a reason is the number

765
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: one reason embarrassment.

766
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: Embarrassment is really a thing.

767
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: So it would take it would take someone with the

768
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: open mindedness of Fitzpatrick. You know. So Fitzpatrick's a good

769
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: example of Hey, I'm gonna do this this crosshanded drill

770
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: with my with my you know, pitching to kind of

771
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: you know, help get a feel of my swing. And

772
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: because he tracks everything, he's like, huh, this is this

773
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 2: is pretty good done. It's in play now. He's a

774
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: great putter, so he has absolutely no reason to to

775
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 2: really switch. But it would take someone who both performed

776
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: better heads up to actually go and try it, and

777
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 2: then also to have that open mindedness of like, hey,

778
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go full throttle with this, and and to

779
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: a certain extent that that's kind of speeth. You know,

780
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 2: he did that a bit. But if I was to

781
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: give a practical reason, you know, to to play Devil's

782
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: Advocate is that, you know, I don't want to give

783
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: tour players and out here, but there could be a

784
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 2: little bit more movement on the green, you know. So

785
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 2: when I put heads up, there'll be a lot of

786
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 2: people who when they see you start your stroke, they'll

787
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: like move to go to their ball as you're starting

788
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 2: their stroke. And it's if it's constant movement, so maybe

789
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: it's fine. On tour, there was constant bustling around, you know,

790
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 2: like if you're like shooting basketball, you know, it's like fine.

791
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 2: But if it's like perfect stillness and then something moves,

792
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: you know, then that could throw you off a little bit.

793
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: And I notice that with my own heads up putting,

794
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: but most people are moving around that much. It's usually

795
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 2: just and I'll say to them, hey, you know, just

796
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: kind of be still, just still I hit the ball.

797
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: That's to give tour players now, But I really think

798
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 2: the number one reason is just it's almost like admitting

799
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: that they're putting is so bad or something that you

800
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: know that they've got to go to this extreme technique.

801
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: But I think it's worth trying, especially for folks who

802
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 2: are struggling. You know, the strokes gains not that great.

803
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: It can't hurt the test it out well.

804
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 4: I mean you think about some of the stats that

805
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 4: Scotty was producing in twenty twenty three, I mean with

806
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 4: the ball striking, and just to throw anything out there.

807
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 4: I mean, Marty, I say this all the time. I'm

808
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 4: very impressed with the professional golfer's ability to tinker. I

809
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 4: mean Sascho's point about you know, Matt Fitzpatrick and chipping

810
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 4: crosshand that I heard a story years ago that Fred

811
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 4: Couples was talked about how he was a better one

812
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 4: handed chipper yep, than he was with both hands on

813
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 4: the golf club, but he just didn't want to put

814
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 4: it out there because he didn't want people in the

815
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 4: crowds and galleries to.

816
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: Talk about it.

817
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 4: But there is it feels like the tinkering almost stops

818
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 4: on the greens, right. I Mean, you might go long putter,

819
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 4: you might go with Green Reading's books, you might go

820
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 4: with a different grip, but in terms of just the analytics,

821
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 4: in terms of what could happen on the greens, it

822
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 4: feels like it almost stops there.

823
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of our best senior players in the section

824
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 3: here he chips one hand and puts his left hand

825
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: in his pocket. Boom, and he chips amazing. Yes, he

826
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 3: puts it in the pocket.

827
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: Hownbelievable.

828
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 3: Next level.

829
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting because most of the precision

830
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: things we do in other sports, they're all done with

831
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: one hand. Never throw darts with two hands. Yeah, you know,

832
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: you imagine you. You know, we write with a single hand,

833
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: everything with you know, with badminton because it's a little

834
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: bit lighter. Always a single hand, you know, most of

835
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: tennis and unless strength becomes an issue as a single

836
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 2: single hand. So it seems reasonable, but people struggle with

837
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: trying to do it, you know, like cause I think

838
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: I'm doing something funny.

839
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 3: I just saw a video some college team football team

840
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 3: where the center did a two handed snap and the

841
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 3: whole internet was going crazy over that. You know, it's

842
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: got the opposite, right example.

843
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's like a long it's like a

844
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 4: long snapper, but doing it for your quarterback, right. I mean,

845
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 4: I mean it's only weird until it works, and then

846
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 4: it's not weird anymore.

847
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Sasha, what about headweight? What have you found in

848
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 3: putting headweight? I mean we've seen we've seen again pretty

849
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 3: reliable folks with a faster tempo backswing to ford stroke

850
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 3: time ratio generally do better with a lighter headweight putter

851
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 3: slower tempo generally with the heavier headweight putter. What are

852
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 3: your findings there on putter, headweight and performance.

853
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and that's another one that's lined up

854
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: very closely in my lab with what Ping's been doing.

855
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: And I think that that that is also getting at

856
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: the kinetics. Those faster tempos are indicative of higher the

857
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 2: force is changing at a higher rate, and your preference

858
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: for what you want your stroke to do, and it's

859
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: nice to have the implement that you're using kind of

860
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: match that. So and this is a good example of

861
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: something that it can be tough to exactly tease out

862
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: the why, and you're kind of left with the hypothesis.

863
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: But it's more important to have good experimental data in

864
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 2: the end than a good theoretical reason. You know, it's

865
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 2: really nice if you can figure out the theory, and

866
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: that's probably going to help you to design better clubs,

867
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: but in the end, it's better to have the data.

868
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 2: You know, to have the experimental data that says this,

869
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: this works better for this type of player.

870
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, my thought on that sawsho is that if it

871
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 3: has a lot to do and even as you mentioned

872
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 3: with the stroke type, it has a lot to do

873
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 3: with the backstroke. You know what happens right when you

874
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 3: try to start, you know, accelerating the object or accelerating

875
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: the putter. If you do it very quickly and the

876
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 3: putter's too heavy, it doesn't you know, it's not moving

877
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 3: at the rate that I think your brain and your

878
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: nervous system might want it to do. What are your

879
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 3: thoughts on the That is kind of like a you know,

880
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 3: a theory or way to think about it.

881
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that absolutely. It's very much in tune

882
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: with what I would call perception action coupling. You know,

883
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: what you're doing, the feedback you're getting from what's actually happening.

884
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 2: You want those two things to line.

885
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 3: Up, gotcha. Yeah.

886
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 4: What is the text messages like between you guys? I mean,

887
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 4: is it like, is it disadvanced? I mean if you

888
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 4: dive this deep on the back and forth or do

889
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 4: you guys just shoot the you know what every now

890
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 4: and again.

891
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: Marty and I are ninety nine percent all business in

892
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: terms of like hardcore science, like.

893
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 4: I want to dive into the text exchanges and see

894
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 4: if it looks like this.

895
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 3: It's all about perception in action coupling.

896
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, new T shirts.

897
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 4: We're gonna have to make uh sashow for you putting.

898
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 4: When you're diving into all this data and you're you're

899
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 4: you're going over thousands and thousands of you know, I

900
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 4: mean tasks and everything you do. How do you simplify

901
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 4: it in your own brain when you go play golf?

902
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,479
Speaker 2: Oh, it's it's all feel for me. You know, you

903
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 2: you think about it, you understand it, but then you're

904
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: on your putting green. It's it's just it's just reacting,

905
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: you know, like and I think that's why it can be.

906
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 2: It can be so tough to to teach some of

907
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: these things, like like green reading, especially when you're trying

908
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: to factor in all of these variables. Like if you

909
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: have a perfectly rectangular green with a set slope and

910
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 2: the stimp doesn't change from the ball to the hole,

911
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: you know that you gotta you can make some serious

912
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: headway with with aim point great, but if you you

913
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: if you start to have you know, putts flattening out

914
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: towards the end, you know you're like, all right, it's

915
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 2: kind of left to right, but then it straightens out

916
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: all of a sudden. It's like, okay, yeah, you know,

917
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: endpoint can help. But then if you go okay, but

918
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 2: then I got some stamp, there's also a bit of

919
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: do you know, there's a bit of wind. I think

920
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: that's where it's you know what you really high like

921
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: heads up putting, because you take all of that information

922
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: in and you just react to it with your stroke,

923
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: you know. And I think that's where some of the

924
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: best putters, like a Battely, when you add, okay, we're

925
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: exactly you're aiming here, and he's like, well, like over there,

926
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: you know, Like I'm like, is it here? You know,

927
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: you put a tea down. He's like, I don't know,

928
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: it's over there because he's his subconscious has a very

929
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 2: specific thing it's executing. But it's like taking in all

930
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: this information, so, you know, I often think that some

931
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 2: savant will come along, like Rainman. You've ever seen ray Man,

932
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 2: you know, where the toothpicks get knocked off the table

933
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: and he's like, oh, it's two hundred and seventy four

934
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: tooth picks, and literally there's going to be somebody who

935
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: has the skill set that's pretty decent in all the

936
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 2: other aspects of golf. But what you know, the three

937
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 2: of us might consider a green irregularity, you know, like, oh,

938
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 2: we've we've put our level down on the green. We

939
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: know how long the putt is, we know what should

940
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: happen here, and we set up a perfect putter and

941
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: we roll the ball and it, oh, it ends up short,

942
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: you know, or it kind of stays out straight. Oh

943
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: because we didn't see, you know, there's a little wormhole

944
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: or some ant or a leaf or a pump in

945
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: the green. But that's really just green rading, you know.

946
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: So rain Man comes up there and he's like, oh, yeah,

947
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: all that information goes in and it comes out in

948
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: the execution of his stroke, you know, and all of

949
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 2: a sudden, instead of in the lab going from ninety

950
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 2: percent eight footers down to fifty percent, he's at like

951
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: seventy five percent and just like leaves everybody in his dust.

952
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: Sasha to me, that's watching Tiger's putt last putt on

953
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 3: eighteen at Torrey Pines. I mean watching the worm cam

954
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 3: of that. I mean, I don't know if that's Luck

955
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: or if he was rain Man and he figured that

956
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 3: out well.

957
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 2: And he's done it so many times. Does he be

958
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: like bay Hill, like, how many of those those are

959
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 2: not easy putts and greens that have been trampled on

960
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: back in the day with metal spikes, you know what

961
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: I'm with you like, And he's so late late, he

962
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 2: was so late. He still is laser focus, he'd see it.

963
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: I guess he did put that one in the hero

964
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: into the bunker, so he could have used a bit

965
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: more focus then.

966
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 5: But he's rusty, you know, he just you could see

967
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 5: he was he was like surveying every square inch of

968
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 5: that putt, and you know, maybe subconsciously that was going

969
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 5: in there, you know, I don't.

970
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 4: Know, maybe maybe the closest we have seen to this

971
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 4: point in terms of what Sasha thinks will be coming

972
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 4: eventually in pro golf. Sasha, we have really appreciate the time.

973
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 4: Very fascinating I have. We've had a lot of guests

974
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 4: on this podcast. I think you might be a top

975
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 4: the list of people I want to play golf with

976
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 4: now because I just weave and I want to ride

977
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 4: in the cart with you because I just want to

978
00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 4: just I just want to hear you talk about this

979
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 4: over and over again, and like I said, the moment

980
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 4: we're done recording, I'm going straight to the putting green

981
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 4: because I am I've gotten a'm twenty twenty four is

982
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 4: going to be heads up putting for me.

983
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if it's appropriate to plug

984
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: stack putting. You're not even doing this, but you you

985
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: get on stack putting and tag your sessions. Yeah, you know,

986
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 2: like this isn't a plug. This is like, this is

987
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 2: this is why Marty and I built it into stack putting.

988
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 2: So it's like, hey, you have this question, go test

989
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: it out. Do a few sessions heads up, few sessions

990
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: heads up. My twelve year old we were prototyping, you know,

991
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 2: like debugging the app. I was like, okay, I need

992
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 2: somebody to put in a variable to decide, you know,

993
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 2: our statistic comparisons working. I was like, well, I don't

994
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: know the putter, and I'm like, just this week, do

995
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 2: a session heads up, do a session heads down? And

996
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: he gained three strokes putting heads up. And I didn't

997
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 2: you know, I wasn't gonna push, but he's like, well

998
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: I gotta put heads up.

999
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 1: You know, he's.

1000
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: Analytical like me, I'm like I can't argue with that.

1001
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: You should.

1002
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: There is the data.

1003
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 4: The numbers are telling you this, Sasha, thanks so much

1004
00:48:58,480 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 4: for the time.

1005
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: Man, this has been great. Uh, Marty smile and I'm smiling.

1006
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 4: We're fired up about the putting. Conversation has been really good.

1007
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 4: This is the Ping proven Grounds podcast.

1008
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 3: H