Speaker 1: It's really the internal that matters, that internal motivation and strength,
Speaker 1: and often that is quiet. Hello, and welcome to the
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome back Steve Magnus on the show.
Speaker 1: Steve is a world renowned expert on high performance. He
Speaker 1: has been a consultant on mental skills development for professional
Speaker 1: sports teams, including some of the top teams in the NBA.
Speaker 1: Steve is the co author of Peak Performance, The Passion Paradox,
Speaker 1: and the author of the Science of Running. Collectively, his
Speaker 1: books have sold more than a quarter million copies in print,
Speaker 1: ebook and audio formats, and his latest book, which is
Speaker 1: the topic of our discussion today, is called Do Hard Things.
Speaker 1: In this episode, I talked to Steve Magnus about real toughness.
Speaker 1: The prevailing narrative around achievement extalls the merits of unrelenting resolve.
Speaker 1: To show vulnerability is to show weakness. According to Steve,
Speaker 1: the hyper focus on external bravado is detrimental to performance
Speaker 1: and mental health. He outline and says four core pillars
Speaker 1: of resilience to replace our broken model of toughness. We
Speaker 1: also touched on the topics of stoicism, self esteem, emotions, mindfulness,
Speaker 1: and sports Psychology. I really respect Steve. He's very evidence based.
Speaker 1: He's also a really humble and good guy. I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to share this episode with you all today. So now,
Speaker 1: without further ado, I give you Steve Magnus. Steve, it's
Speaker 1: great to have you back in the Psychologic podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me looking forward to it. Yes, me too.
Speaker 1: How have you grown and changed since the last time
Speaker 1: you run the podcast, which might have been twenty fifteen sixteen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say it was a it was a
Speaker 1: while ago, sure was, you know. I like to think
Speaker 1: I hopefully I've grown and changed a lot. I like
Speaker 1: to think I have. I think if you go back
Speaker 1: to twenty fifteen sixteen, I was still in a world
Speaker 1: where sport and running and that was dominating my life.
Speaker 1: And since then, I would say that I've gone on
Speaker 1: this journey where, you know, a sport is all always
Speaker 1: going to be something that's important to me. But I
Speaker 1: think I've kind of zoomed out and maybe gotten a
Speaker 1: little perspective and realized the bigger picture and what's important.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. So in a way, this book that you've
Speaker 1: written today, it wasn't in your head then A lot
Speaker 1: of these ideas about resilience. Did you even have some
Speaker 1: sort of outdated or some of the kind of notions
Speaker 1: you push back against in this current book? Do you
Speaker 1: even have some of those notions in your head around
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, Oh yeah, one hundred percent because
Speaker 1: the culture, the culture and sport is so much of
Speaker 1: like just push through everything I see, And that was
Speaker 1: definitely my mentality. I mean back then, even then, it
Speaker 1: was you don't show any sign of weakness, Like any
Speaker 1: vulnerability is almost like something that someone could exploit, which
Speaker 1: I think is obviously wrong, But that's the kind of
Speaker 1: mentality you grow up in. So even I think if
Speaker 1: we talked about that at that point my life, I
Speaker 1: probably I definitely would have said a lot of things
Speaker 1: that are counter to now what I believe. So in
Speaker 1: many ways, this book might represent some of the growth
Speaker 1: that I've had, you know, as a person, that's really
Speaker 1: incredible go growth. And since then, there's been some really
Speaker 1: high profile Olympic cases of individuals admitting that they have
Speaker 1: some mental health issues and that they don't want to continue.
Speaker 1: So that how much do you think that has kind
Speaker 1: of changed the public consciousness and this awareness around some
Speaker 1: of these issues. I do. I think it's amazing because
Speaker 1: I think what you're seeing is essentially people speaking about
Speaker 1: the reality of the situation. So you'd hear, you know,
Speaker 1: in the sports world especially, you'd hear maybe some of
Speaker 1: these struggles and whispers, you know, behind the scenes, but
Speaker 1: no one talked about it publicly because it was again,
Speaker 1: it was a weakness. It was something that you were
Speaker 1: kind of ashamed of. So I think people like tennis
Speaker 1: player in Naomi Osaka Somone Biles during the Olympics essentially saying, hey,
Speaker 1: here's the reality of the situation. This is hard stuff,
Speaker 1: and I'm a human being and I'm gonna struggle with things,
Speaker 1: and here are some of my struggles. I think that
Speaker 1: message is so impactful because it normalizes the reality. It
Speaker 1: doesn't give us this kind of fake facade where it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: everything's great, I'm the toughest person in the world, Like
Speaker 1: I can go out and do these crazy things and
Speaker 1: it's normal, because it's not. And we've seen it, even
Speaker 1: with you know that one of the best Olympians ever,
Speaker 1: Michael Phelps, you know, normalizing some mental health struggles as well,
Speaker 1: and I think that is so impactful. It's so interesting
Speaker 1: because I think so much of this is tied up
Speaker 1: with a certain image of masculinity though as well. I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like this is undeniable. In discussing this, I mean,
Speaker 1: a lot of the culture that you criticize, it's still
Speaker 1: alive and well. And I'm not gonna mention names of
Speaker 1: a lot of people use their imagination, but you know,
Speaker 1: you see on the internet culture of people who you know,
Speaker 1: I woke up at four am. Again, I'm not much news,
Speaker 1: but you know there's and that seems to work for them, right,
Speaker 1: So uh and it's or is it? I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess we don't really know their personal life and what
Speaker 1: they actually go through day to day, but you know
Speaker 1: they rally a lot of followers. You know, their followers
Speaker 1: feel inspired by it. You know, what would you kind
Speaker 1: of say to that culture and why it's so popular?
Speaker 1: Why is so popular? And and does it and why
Speaker 1: why is it undeniably? Mostly sort of like bros that
Speaker 1: are like you know, Rauty, I mean, I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: just being truthful. No, That's what I love about you, Scott,
Speaker 1: is you just call it, I just say it. But
Speaker 1: I think you're spot on and I think there is
Speaker 1: something about that. I think it's it's rather appealing because it,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, in the US especially, we have this
Speaker 1: culture where you know, it goes back hundreds of year.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, hard work gets us ahead, hard work
Speaker 1: separates us in you know, our religions, various religions. It's
Speaker 1: like we like hard work, dedication, all of that stuff
Speaker 1: is is celebrated. So I think in a way it's
Speaker 1: very culturally tied together so that people almost like you
Speaker 1: almost like have to say it to celebrate it. So
Speaker 1: if I say, hey, I'm getting up at five am,
Speaker 1: what does that tell me? Well, it tells you, Oh,
Speaker 1: this person's dedicated. Oh, this person's going to put in
Speaker 1: the work. Oh this person's you know, getting ahead while
Speaker 1: I'm sleeping. But if you look at the reality is
Speaker 1: over the sustained long term of it, maybe sleep is
Speaker 1: a better thing than getting up at four am. And
Speaker 1: I'm not if that's your only choice and it's working
Speaker 1: for you, get more power to you. But I think
Speaker 1: this is what it gets at. It is that it's
Speaker 1: not it looks good and in today's kind of social
Speaker 1: media world, what's going to get more likes and clicks,
Speaker 1: like a post of your watch at four am and
Speaker 1: you working out and it's completely dark, or you getting
Speaker 1: up at you know, seven point thirty, you know, going
Speaker 1: to the gym and doing something, or going for a
Speaker 1: walk like you know, that's not as that's not as popular.
Speaker 1: So I think it is something that's just in this culture.
Speaker 1: And then the last part that I have to come
Speaker 1: in is it is a little of that masculinity piece
Speaker 1: that I think is big, right, It's almost like this
Speaker 1: machismo where we have to show it externally. And I
Speaker 1: think this gets at the heart of the problem. Is
Speaker 1: it's this external bravado of hey, look at me doing
Speaker 1: these incredibly difficult things I'm getting up at four am
Speaker 1: to work out or whatever it is in the bro culture.
Speaker 1: When the reality is, and we know this from as
Speaker 1: you know from decades of data, is it's really the
Speaker 1: internal that matters, that internal motivation and strength, and often
Speaker 1: that is quiet, right. It's for example, in a non
Speaker 1: athletic context. You know this. When you write a book,
Speaker 1: it's incredibly it's hard, it's challenging, but you don't take
Speaker 1: a picture and like, hey, I wrote thousand words today.
Speaker 1: Every single day, look at me it's almost this quiet
Speaker 1: sense of Okay, I've got to wrestle with this topic,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to delete some stuff and sometimes I'm
Speaker 1: going to go through this writer's block. But like it's
Speaker 1: that internal motivation that pushes you to get the project
Speaker 1: eventually done. And I think that's often what we've kind
Speaker 1: of neglected. You raise so many important issues. I'm just
Speaker 1: thinking of like synchronized swimming or artistic swimming as an example.
Speaker 1: There are certain sports where clearly the reward and the
Speaker 1: all in wonder is how effortless they look, and so
Speaker 1: it would almost be taboo and certain sports for them
Speaker 1: to show how hard they worked in them. And then
Speaker 1: there are others where it seems like it's part and
Speaker 1: parcel of the status to show how hard you work
Speaker 1: in them. So I actually see it. It feels like
Speaker 1: it differs depending on the demean and maybe but again
Speaker 1: maybe the gender thing in because you don't see many
Speaker 1: bros artistic swimming, do you, right, And I think that's
Speaker 1: kind of it. Right. Wait a minute, that just dawned
Speaker 1: on me. That just dawn on me. Maybe that goes
Speaker 1: down gendered lines UFC versus. I'm let's take two extremes.
Speaker 1: UFC fighting versus artistic swimming play right like they seem to,
Speaker 1: they must differ in the extent to which the leaders
Speaker 1: in those fields on social media are showing how much
Speaker 1: work they're putting in. And maybe I'm wrong again people
Speaker 1: challenge me. Who hear anything I say, Please feel free
Speaker 1: to challenge me. But I'm just thinking, like it seems
Speaker 1: like there's there's certain fields where it's like you work
Speaker 1: so hard that so you can show how, you know,
Speaker 1: effortless it looks at the end of the day, and
Speaker 1: how beautiful and free flowing it is, you know exactly.
Speaker 1: I think you're onto something because it's like artistic swimming.
Speaker 1: You look at maybe like rhythmic gymnastics and other sports
Speaker 1: like that, where it's it's almost like be effortless, don't don't,
Speaker 1: don't grimace while you're doing it, like you're being judged.
Speaker 1: And then you look at maybe you know sports like
Speaker 1: again UFC or football or whatever. At boxing, it's like, no,
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of bravado. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, we're we we want to be seen as
Speaker 1: tough in putting an effort ragging exactly, So it's very
Speaker 1: interesting this it does split along gendered lines, and I
Speaker 1: would argue that at the extremes of both ends we
Speaker 1: have some a little bit of issues, right because if
Speaker 1: in artistic swimming or gymnastics you're encouraged to like don't
Speaker 1: show any sign of like struggle, well that's not good
Speaker 1: because occasionally, like gymnastics is tough, like artistic swimming is tough,
Speaker 1: like you're holding your breath all that time, right, is uh,
Speaker 1: maybe some reality might help. But on the flip side
Speaker 1: again with something like ufsay usc, it's like, well maybe
Speaker 1: some reality of you know, we don't need all of
Speaker 1: this bravado or external kind of mut cheese mo like.
Speaker 1: It's it's still the inner strength gets you through the
Speaker 1: difficult moment. So it's both sides kind of have this
Speaker 1: maybe this little piece where we could meet in the
Speaker 1: happy middle somewhere. Yeah, that would be very nice. I
Speaker 1: this is on my mind because I saw those breathtaking
Speaker 1: photos of the artistic swimmer who lost consciousness and her
Speaker 1: coach jumped in and saved her, and then another member
Speaker 1: of the team jumped to save her. The lifeguards, by
Speaker 1: the way, didn't move at all, you know, And I
Speaker 1: don't know did you follow that story by any chance
Speaker 1: you know what I did? Yes? Yeah, And you know,
Speaker 1: I wonder what extent she felt as though she couldn't
Speaker 1: it was as a result, you know, of not being
Speaker 1: able to express you know, how hard she had to
Speaker 1: like train and work, you know, and and kind of
Speaker 1: societal pressures. So interesting, there's societal pressures against women saying
Speaker 1: you know how they feel. But there's also, you know,
Speaker 1: saddle pressures against men in saying you know how you feel.
Speaker 1: So it's almost like the men show off how hard
Speaker 1: they're working, but without any showing any emotions involved. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, because that's you know, just it's like, I'm
Speaker 1: going to work so hard. Look how I woke up before.
Speaker 1: Look how stolen temperament I am. Look how you know
Speaker 1: I read Ryan Holiday. I love Ryan. I'm saying it's like,
Speaker 1: God forbid you bring in a little bit humanistic psychology.
Speaker 1: You know that we're a whole person, right, and that
Speaker 1: there's more or less the matters. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm just riffing with you and just bringing up various
Speaker 1: streams of consciousness to riff on. Yeah, No, I love it.
Speaker 1: This is why I love talking with you, Scott, because
Speaker 1: I think it's even interesting there because and I love
Speaker 1: Ryan Holliday and his work. He does fantastic work. But
Speaker 1: often even the so called philosophies we were drawn to
Speaker 1: also kind of fit into this bigger picture. There's some
Speaker 1: great things we can learn about Stoicism, But often I
Speaker 1: think the interpretation of Stoic in the modern world is like, oh,
Speaker 1: just like quiet, you know, get through the thing, don't
Speaker 1: show any emotions. I mean, that's what Stoic kind of means,
Speaker 1: even though that's not what the philosophy kind of suggests.
Speaker 1: But alternatively, you don't see a lot of bros. Picking
Speaker 1: up Carl Rogers or humanistic philosophers, right, And it's it's
Speaker 1: popular the exception. I'm the exception, right, But it's it's
Speaker 1: interesting because we're drawn to, you know, different philosophies that
Speaker 1: kind of fit this kind of society, cultural, you know,
Speaker 1: space that maybe we occupy in without seeing the full
Speaker 1: spectrum of maybe. You know, what I try and do
Speaker 1: is like, there's some great things in Stoicism that I
Speaker 1: can pull on that that fit in this model of
Speaker 1: real toughness I'm trying to do. There's some wonderful things
Speaker 1: from humanistic philosophy that fit in, and it's like it's
Speaker 1: wrestling with that nuance and maybe that oftentimes we're lacking.
Speaker 1: This is really really interesting, you know, because I want
Speaker 1: to go through your four pillars and I want us
Speaker 1: to not I urge, I urge our listeners to not
Speaker 1: view these along gendered lines. I think that's a big
Speaker 1: point of of what we want to say here. You
Speaker 1: know what I mean, you obviously are saying, and I'm
Speaker 1: agreeing with you. You know, we have a shared message.
Speaker 1: I want us to go through these flour and just
Speaker 1: I don't want people to see these things through gendered lines.
Speaker 1: Like the first of us ditch the facade, embrace reality.
Speaker 1: I mean you talk about how true confidence is quiet,
Speaker 1: insecurity is loud again. I mean, there are the kind
Speaker 1: of these gender you know things where like women don't
Speaker 1: talk as much in meetings, don't feel like they can
Speaker 1: they're appreciate as much when they're lowed, you know. And
Speaker 1: and men you know who are wowed and who aren't loud,
Speaker 1: you know, are kind of viewed as submissive, you know.
Speaker 1: So how can we transcend Let's transcend these these these
Speaker 1: these pattern degendered ways of thinking and just make as
Speaker 1: true statement, which is that regardless of who you are
Speaker 1: and what feel you are, it seems like it feels
Speaker 1: like the point you're making is it seems like the
Speaker 1: people who are the most secure within themselves and confident
Speaker 1: and have mastered the skills and feel confidencesters don't feel
Speaker 1: such a need to roar as loudly. Is that the
Speaker 1: point you're making exactly? That's it spot on, And I
Speaker 1: think what you we see is again it's almost kind
Speaker 1: of this external versus internal and what we know again
Speaker 1: from research and experience, is that that internal confidence is
Speaker 1: what actually lasts. If we come forward and come at
Speaker 1: things with a lot of let's say external bravado, what
Speaker 1: happens is, yeah, you might get started, but the moment
Speaker 1: you're faced with that difficult moment where it's like, oh
Speaker 1: this is really tough, like I don't know if I
Speaker 1: can get through this, the external fades away, The bravado
Speaker 1: fades away, because you are left with you have to
Speaker 1: do this thing, and it's just you and that thing.
Speaker 1: And if you don't have that security to navigate those
Speaker 1: really difficult moments, and that security is again internal and
Speaker 1: quiet and just I know who I am and what
Speaker 1: I'm capable of and what I've done to get to
Speaker 1: this point. If you have that internal security, you can
Speaker 1: persist or like you know, figure your way how to
Speaker 1: navigate through things. And I think so much too much
Speaker 1: times what we've done is we've kind of thrown that
Speaker 1: by the wayside. And you know, my childhood was a
Speaker 1: great example of this because I grew up in the
Speaker 1: self esteem generation, where in the eighties and nineties, I
Speaker 1: think at every elementary school, you know, program was something
Speaker 1: to tell us we were great. And you know you
Speaker 1: would know better than I do, Scott, but self esteem
Speaker 1: is great. It works very well. It's something that is needed.
Speaker 1: But from my understanding of both the literature and experience,
Speaker 1: like telling something someone they're great isn't the same as saying, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, you went through this difficult time you you know,
Speaker 1: worked really hard on this project or paper or what
Speaker 1: have you. Like this is this is fantastic, and the
Speaker 1: sense that there's some evidence behind it and that compliment
Speaker 1: or that that whatever telling people they're good at something
Speaker 1: has some meat on the bones that works. Just telling
Speaker 1: people like you're fantastic in a you know, in a
Speaker 1: presentation doesn't do much so I really want to get
Speaker 1: back to that is like, Okay, we need a little
Speaker 1: bit of reality and evidence behind things, and if we
Speaker 1: do that, then we're going to be in a much
Speaker 1: better place. Oh for sure, I've been. I've been trying
Speaker 1: to illustrate, trying to highlight to people the difference between
Speaker 1: self esteem and narcissism, because the two are often conflated
Speaker 1: with each other. A healthy self esteem actually isn't one
Speaker 1: where you're constantly being told you're great. Healthy self esteem
Speaker 1: usually develops from a warm, nurturing family who is constantly
Speaker 1: signaling you that you're worthy, that you are competent, just
Speaker 1: as competent as anyone else, to learn something and to grow.
Speaker 1: But that's a healthy self esteem. But that's different actually,
Speaker 1: the narcissism and puffing yourself up in a grandiose way,
Speaker 1: feeling like you always had the defend and I am
Speaker 1: great self schema. That's that's different than self esteem. I
Speaker 1: love that. And you know where my mind goes again
Speaker 1: is maybe sport, especially youth sport, because often what you
Speaker 1: see is that support key people interpret it as like, oh,
Speaker 1: my child needs to win, and I'm going to teach
Speaker 1: them how to win and this is gonna like give
Speaker 1: them the confidence and stuff. But that's not what support is.
Speaker 1: Support is creating, as you said, that warm environment where
Speaker 1: your child knows, like win or lose at the soccer
Speaker 1: game or football game or pee wee, you know, baseball
Speaker 1: whatever it is, like their loves supported and that you
Speaker 1: appreciate like the effort they put forth and the things
Speaker 1: that they're challenging themselves on. And you create that environment
Speaker 1: and that's what it's about, not this like win or
Speaker 1: lose at you know, eight years old or whatever have you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Another one in under the Embrace Reality section of you
Speaker 1: have a chapter on accepting what you are capable of.
Speaker 1: And I struggled with that one quite honestly, because I
Speaker 1: really have that kind of attitude of like as a
Speaker 1: coach and as a I'm crring a new form of
Speaker 1: coaching I'm calling self actualization coaching. A big tenant is
Speaker 1: I believe in your potential, you know, for growth and
Speaker 1: and almost don't accept the labels that people put on you, right,
Speaker 1: you know, like as a kid, imagine if when I was,
Speaker 1: you know, told what my Q score was at age
Speaker 1: eight eight or so, I don't know if you know
Speaker 1: my life story. Imagine if I was like, well, Steve says,
Speaker 1: accept what you're capable of? You know is what Maybe
Speaker 1: what you're saying is, well, is there a nuance? Is
Speaker 1: a room for nuance here where you can say, don't
Speaker 1: accept what other people tell you're capable of. Maybe maybe
Speaker 1: that's maybe that we can agree on that at least,
Speaker 1: But but then there's nuance within your own self and
Speaker 1: what you accept in your own capacities. What do you
Speaker 1: think I would agree with that? I think I think
Speaker 1: hopefully all of my book is nuanced because it is.
Speaker 1: But you know what I'm trying to get at there
Speaker 1: is exactly that is, to see what you're capable of.
Speaker 1: You have to occasionally push the balance right, You have
Speaker 1: to test yourself, You have to put yourself in positions
Speaker 1: and see what's there. I think what I'm trying to
Speaker 1: get at there is whenever we face challenges, we need
Speaker 1: some degree of overlap between our perceptions, not other people's,
Speaker 1: our perceptions of what we're capable of, and our perceptions
Speaker 1: of the demand of the thing we're trying to do.
Speaker 1: So and what I say is again some degree of overlap.
Speaker 1: It doesn't need to be perfect maybe we have, you know,
Speaker 1: again stretching our limits so that but I think where
Speaker 1: we get in the get in our way often is
Speaker 1: again we almost think, oh, I have to be always optimistic,
Speaker 1: always shooting for the stars, always thinking that I'm the
Speaker 1: greatest ever, And often that's up for what I'd call
Speaker 1: a false appraisal. Where again, when we get in the
Speaker 1: thing and it becomes challenging, it's almost like our brain says, oh,
Speaker 1: hit this gape button because this is way more difficult
Speaker 1: than we thought it was. So what I'm I trying
Speaker 1: to get at is when I say, accept what you're
Speaker 1: capable of is again it's that internal your perception, not others,
Speaker 1: and trying to get your perception based on the reality
Speaker 1: of like putting yourself in situations where you stretch your
Speaker 1: capabilities and see what's there, and that that is a positive.
Speaker 1: And again I think if we adopt that, that kind
Speaker 1: of reframes our how we think of maybe wins or
Speaker 1: losses or failure, because then failure is not you know,
Speaker 1: this thing, this personal attack on me. It's information where
Speaker 1: you say, Okay, I wasn't capable of it today, but
Speaker 1: now I know where my weak spot is or what
Speaker 1: I am capable of now how do I bridge that gap? Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you for that clarification. I would refrain that and
Speaker 1: maybe in a way you haven't quite thought of it,
Speaker 1: but you might agree with me. You're basically you're saying,
Speaker 1: have humility, because the definition of humility in the psychological
Speaker 1: literature is simply your ability to have an accurate assessment
Speaker 1: of your current ability set. I'd agree one hundred percent. Actually,
Speaker 1: when writing the book, I talked to someone who's elite
Speaker 1: military and he put it very similar to that. Actually
Speaker 1: was after I was done writing the book, so this
Speaker 1: part didn't make it into the book, But he said, Steve,
Speaker 1: when we're out there doing crazy things and surviving and
Speaker 1: in the midst of the battle, it's not about this
Speaker 1: unbridled confidence. It's about humble confidence because I need to
Speaker 1: know it's like just like that, that humility to understand
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to do and what I'm capable of
Speaker 1: this in this moment. And he said, you know, contrary
Speaker 1: to maybe popular opinion, a little bit of doubt is
Speaker 1: a good thing because it keeps me sharp and aware
Speaker 1: in times when I need to be. Yeah, so can
Speaker 1: we say two things can be true? At the same
Speaker 1: time that you can have that humility while also not
Speaker 1: necessarily accepting the potential that people say that people put
Speaker 1: on you, especially like school children and and well even
Speaker 1: you know, even if your coach tells you that you
Speaker 1: don't have what it takes, but you believe inside you
Speaker 1: have that fire and potential for it, that you still
Speaker 1: have the humility in the moment, but you still have
Speaker 1: the longer term confidence. Can we hold both those in
Speaker 1: there our mind at the same time. I think that
Speaker 1: is fantastic And my wife, who is an elementary school teacher,
Speaker 1: would agree with that and love that great wonderful. Another
Speaker 1: thing you talk about in the Embracing Reality section is
Speaker 1: no one to hold them and when to fold them.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I say, no one to grit, no one to quit.
Speaker 1: Is that similar? Yeah, the same thing, because I think
Speaker 1: again in certain sections of our culture, we often have
Speaker 1: this idea of quitting is being equated to you know, losing,
Speaker 1: or that you're weak or what have you. And the
Speaker 1: reality is, you know, sometimes quitting is the right thing
Speaker 1: to do. You know. In the book, I outlined and
Speaker 1: talked to some world class climbers who climb like mountains
Speaker 1: like Mount Everest, right, and they tell me it is Steve.
Speaker 1: The tough thing to do is, you know, see the summit.
Speaker 1: You know right there, you're capable of getting there, But
Speaker 1: you can't just be drawn to that one off goal.
Speaker 1: You have to sit there and be like, do I
Speaker 1: have the energy to not only make it all the
Speaker 1: way to the top, but also all the way back
Speaker 1: down safely? And sometimes you do that assessment you say, no,
Speaker 1: quitting is the right thing, even though you've trained for
Speaker 1: months or years to make it to that summit. So again,
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to get at is we've got to
Speaker 1: do that assessment. You know, it's not about quitting as
Speaker 1: being some weakness. It's about what's the right thing in
Speaker 1: that moment. I love that and changing goals. I mean,
Speaker 1: quitting is also a label that you're putting on yourself exactly.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's again, there's some fascinating research that
Speaker 1: shows elite performers from athletics to military to again, you know,
Speaker 1: others are really good at at shifting their goals in
Speaker 1: the moment, right And what that, what that does is
Speaker 1: is amazing because we go from Okay, well maybe this
Speaker 1: goal isn't possible, but if I can shift my goal.
Speaker 1: It's like my motivation doesn't fall off a cliff. It
Speaker 1: gets directed towards something else. Yea. And that allows us
Speaker 1: to like stay in the game and you know, still
Speaker 1: do things that we want to do. Yeah. Forevery no,
Speaker 1: you're saying yes to something else exactly exactly. Another pillar
Speaker 1: you talk about is listen to your body. And this
Speaker 1: is an interesting one, and I assume you're not talking
Speaker 1: to schizophrenics own the voice in your head. Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's not. Again, there's nuance here. But I think often
Speaker 1: what we look at is we almost see our inner
Speaker 1: voice as combative, especially in difficult moments, because it's often
Speaker 1: that in a voice that brings up maybe doubts or insecurities,
Speaker 1: or that urge to quit when we're doing difficult or
Speaker 1: uncomfortable things. Yeah. So your motions are messengers, not dictators,
Speaker 1: but sometimes it feels like they're dictators. What do you
Speaker 1: do when you feel like it's it is a dictator?
Speaker 1: You know? What about like, you know, people who are
Speaker 1: addicted to athletic improvements? You know, there there are people
Speaker 1: out there, Steve who I think the word addiction applies,
Speaker 1: you know, to the extent to which they must practice practice, practice.
Speaker 1: What do you think. I think addiction is a spot
Speaker 1: on I mean, I've I've actually experienced that in my
Speaker 1: younger life. I mean in high school, I definitely went
Speaker 1: through moments of having to instead of wanting to. And
Speaker 1: I think that's a dangerous moment. And what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to say in this piece with emotions or messengers not dictators,
Speaker 1: is they can become dictators. And that's what we're trying
Speaker 1: to almost keep them in their right place by again,
Speaker 1: learning to listen to your body. The example I like
Speaker 1: to give again I'll use an athletic context, but it
Speaker 1: applies to everything is if I can understand the difference
Speaker 1: when I go to work out between pain that is
Speaker 1: normal and pain or discomfort that might mean injury or
Speaker 1: that I need to stop. And there's nuance there there is,
Speaker 1: And how do you understand that nuance? Well, you have
Speaker 1: to spend time sitting with that emotion to understand it.
Speaker 1: And I think some of the fascinating research lately is
Speaker 1: around the contextualization of emotions. And actually I'll go to
Speaker 1: a story from my wife, who again is the elementary
Speaker 1: school teacher, who put this very clearly to me. Is she.
Speaker 1: She one day said like, hey, Steve, do you know why?
Speaker 1: You know, she's taught kindergarten, first grade, other grades like that.
Speaker 1: Do you know why kids sometimes freak out and throw tantrums? No?
Speaker 1: I you know, I we don't have kids. I've only
Speaker 1: rarely experienced that. She's like, there experiences barrage of feelings.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's from like frustration of you know, getting a
Speaker 1: you know, a graded paperback, or that friends didn't interact
Speaker 1: with them at recess. But they experience this barrage of
Speaker 1: feelings that often is unfamiliar and that they have no
Speaker 1: idea what to do with, and they can only describe
Speaker 1: it in a very you know, shallow or minute way.
Speaker 1: And for example, with five year olds, everything is sad.
Speaker 1: You know, I feel sad. I feel sad. Why because
Speaker 1: they haven't developed the capacity to you know, distinguish that
Speaker 1: nuance of maybe the difference between sadness and frustration or
Speaker 1: loneliness or whatever have you. And as you understand or
Speaker 1: contextualize that vocabulary, you're able to deal with the thing
Speaker 1: a little bit better because you can understand it. And
Speaker 1: as adults we start to gain that ability. But I
Speaker 1: really think again, it's the ability that sometimes we neglect
Speaker 1: because we shew away our emotions and feelings. And my
Speaker 1: message is, you know, you got to learn from them.
Speaker 1: You got to almost kind of become friends with them
Speaker 1: a little bit so that you can understand what wants
Speaker 1: maybe to listen to and what ones again that might
Speaker 1: be false alarms or you know, false signals that you
Speaker 1: know you can let pass on by. Yeah. I agree,
Speaker 1: and I think that like Mark Brackett, for instance, is
Speaker 1: doing really good work on emotional literacy in doing exactly
Speaker 1: that and teaching that to school children. I wonder to
Speaker 1: what extent Mark thought through how this can be applied
Speaker 1: to for coaches in the sports world. And that's something
Speaker 1: maybe I could get you guys talk to know each other,
Speaker 1: maybe I can make an intro. Yeah, that'd be fantastic
Speaker 1: because it is it's absolutely a skill that is not
Speaker 1: developed but certainly applies in the sporting world because again,
Speaker 1: there's so many nuances of the feelings and sensations you
Speaker 1: get when you're working out, regardless of what it is.
Speaker 1: Because it's uncomfortable, right, Yeah, it is uncomfortable. I mean
Speaker 1: your book is called Do Hard Things. You are still
Speaker 1: advocating doing hard things. You're not saying like, oh, take
Speaker 1: it easy, Like you know, like we focus too much
Speaker 1: our society and doing hard things and we should just
Speaker 1: be heating us that you do still say that it's
Speaker 1: good to do hard things, but you're what you're saying
Speaker 1: and what you're challenging are the methods by which we
Speaker 1: do those hard things. You're saying even the a lot
Speaker 1: of the notions we have and are actually making it
Speaker 1: harder to do the hard things, that we can do
Speaker 1: the hard things in a more efficient manner. Exactly. I
Speaker 1: think what it is, and you know, it's almost like
Speaker 1: this the title and then the book is it's almost
Speaker 1: like rich Roll told me this is the title is
Speaker 1: almost like the Trojan Horse, and that Yes, I'm saying
Speaker 1: do hard things, but I'm not saying go beat your
Speaker 1: head against a brick wall. I'm saying, do hard things.
Speaker 1: But the way we've traditionally approached difficult things isn't the
Speaker 1: best way to learn from, navigate and get through life's
Speaker 1: challenges or difficulties. Well, that's because there is a reward
Speaker 1: system in place in certain communities for doing hard things
Speaker 1: the hardest way possible. Yes, So that is in and
Speaker 1: of itself the reward in certain communities. You must expect
Speaker 1: there are certain communities that would read your book and
Speaker 1: not like your book. But you can't. You can't please everyone.
Speaker 1: You can't and there are going to be people who
Speaker 1: read this and are like, oh, my gosh, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about. But that's why I think I tried
Speaker 1: in the book to give examples from Again, even the military,
Speaker 1: which is often thought of as this common you know,
Speaker 1: this community is like, oh, we just put our head
Speaker 1: down and run through brick walls. But you know, the
Speaker 1: US military is the nation's largest employer of sports psychologists,
Speaker 1: right Why because they recognize and realize that if we're
Speaker 1: going to do difficult things, we need to teach, you know,
Speaker 1: how to cope with struggles. We need to teach how
Speaker 1: to cope with adversity and strength. We need to teach
Speaker 1: people how to build confidence or how to navigate that
Speaker 1: inner voice or whatever have you. All the different skills
Speaker 1: that we have, and it's part of the military's curriculum.
Speaker 1: So my answer is to some of these traditional you
Speaker 1: know viewpoints, is well, if the people who are doing
Speaker 1: maybe you know, one of the most difficult things in
Speaker 1: the world and have a very kind of macho culture
Speaker 1: are employing these tactics and techniques to get better, Why
Speaker 1: aren't you. Another thing that I'd say as well is
Speaker 1: if you look at some fascinating research, one of the
Speaker 1: reasons the military employees' stuff is because it works, and
Speaker 1: also because they base these problems to the nth degree.
Speaker 1: There was a fascinating study that looked at people going
Speaker 1: elite you know, special forces, going through going through survival training,
Speaker 1: simulated survival training, and it was something like ninety six
Speaker 1: percent of them experienced disassociation. Wow, which is you know,
Speaker 1: and these are the train the best of the best,
Speaker 1: so they're sitting here. How do we get these people
Speaker 1: to be able to keep their mind essentially steady and
Speaker 1: deal with this chaos? Well, it's the techniques that we
Speaker 1: know from sports psychology, from humanistic psychology, from positive psychology.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of work in positive psych cology
Speaker 1: in the military. So all of these things work even
Speaker 1: in the most you know, macho of macho cultures. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Well let me ask you. I was very impressed to
Speaker 1: hear that you ran almost a four minute mile. What
Speaker 1: was it? Four minutes five seconds? What was it? What
Speaker 1: was your best time four minute and one second. I
Speaker 1: mean that's incredible. I mean that's really incredible. And yet
Speaker 1: even with that, he wrote something on Twitter like I
Speaker 1: just I can't break that four minute boundary. It's hard.
Speaker 1: It's like, dude, how many people, how many people in
Speaker 1: any generation can run a four minute one second mile?
Speaker 1: It can't be certainly not in the hundreds of thousands. No, No,
Speaker 1: it's definitely not. No. Holy cow. So well, first of all, congratulations,
Speaker 1: that shows that you have put the work in dedication
Speaker 1: towards something. When did you do that? How many years ago? Oh?
Speaker 1: A while ago? My best was actually when I was eighteen,
Speaker 1: I ran four oh one, and then after that and
Speaker 1: the decade after that, I ran everything from four one
Speaker 1: to four h three to four or five. So I
Speaker 1: was spent a lot of time right in that low
Speaker 1: four minute barrier time. If you like, if I said
Speaker 1: go run right now, you know this is like you
Speaker 1: just run out your door and you just run a mile,
Speaker 1: how fast would it would it be? Right now? Gosh?
Speaker 1: I would probably say like four fifteen maybe. Wow, that's
Speaker 1: that's how old are you? Thirty seven? Yeah? So was
Speaker 1: there a point in your life where you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: maybe I can be a competitive runner, like you know,
Speaker 1: like like, was there a time we were aspiring for
Speaker 1: even like Olympics? Oh oh yeah, absolutely. I mean especially
Speaker 1: in my early years in high school and college, that
Speaker 1: was absolutely a goal and something that I aspired to.
Speaker 1: But it's you know, it's one of those things where
Speaker 1: you work really hard and you see what you're capable of,
Speaker 1: and I was. I was just a little bit shy
Speaker 1: of that maybe Olympic level a couple seconds shy, Okay.
Speaker 1: So the reason why I bring all this up because
Speaker 1: I ask you because back then when you ran that
Speaker 1: fastest time, I imagine you had a lot of these
Speaker 1: out there, the notions in your head, or these notions
Speaker 1: that you've chriticized here, and I want you to just
Speaker 1: be as bluntly honest with me as possible, because this
Speaker 1: is really the question. Do you think that if you
Speaker 1: were enlightened as you are now and you read Steve
Speaker 1: Magnus's book Do Hard Things when you're eighteen years old,
Speaker 1: maybe that would have helped you get past get under
Speaker 1: four minutes? Or would you have been able to get
Speaker 1: four minutes in one second? With this different way of thinking?
Speaker 1: Is the way that the outdate all those notions you
Speaker 1: had that you're arguing against. Did how much did that
Speaker 1: actually help you or was it necessary for you to
Speaker 1: get such an amazing, amazing because you did something amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good question. That's a great question, Scott. I
Speaker 1: haven't been asked that, so I think here's my experience.
Speaker 1: So back then, maybe to set the stage, I was
Speaker 1: capable of running really fast, but it had to align
Speaker 1: with you know, I was in the right state, in
Speaker 1: the right place, at the right time, because when I ran,
Speaker 1: you know, those really fast times. Yes, I subscribed to
Speaker 1: those old school notions like I put my head down.
Speaker 1: I think I literally threw up, like after most of
Speaker 1: my races at that point. So I was I was going.
Speaker 1: But what would happen is I had to go so
Speaker 1: far into this deep dark well that if if that
Speaker 1: well was there or happened to be filled on that day,
Speaker 1: I could do it. I could perform well. But more
Speaker 1: often than not, what happens is that well is not
Speaker 1: there all the time. So I would dig deep, you know,
Speaker 1: try and find that well, and it wouldn't be there,
Speaker 1: and those traditional tactics and techniques would backfire and I'd
Speaker 1: essentially kind of spiral out. Instead of running four h
Speaker 1: one or four h two, I'd run again four fifteen
Speaker 1: or four twenty, like I'd run much slower when it
Speaker 1: wasn't my day. So as I look back, if I
Speaker 1: think if I had more tools in my toolkit, then
Speaker 1: I've probably would have been more consistent on figuring out
Speaker 1: how to perform at a high level, no matter you
Speaker 1: know what the circumstances were. And generally if you're more consistent,
Speaker 1: it's almost like you have more opportunities for that great
Speaker 1: day to take advantage of it because you're always in
Speaker 1: that spot. And I think that would have made a
Speaker 1: big difference in my career. Yeah, thank you, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for taking that question seriously and being so
Speaker 1: honest nuanced about that answer. I really appreciate it. It's
Speaker 1: just so it's so fascinating how our goals are can
Speaker 1: be so like what one man's what one person's accomplishment
Speaker 1: can be so different another person accomplishment. My goal. These days,
Speaker 1: I've been trying to see how fast I can run
Speaker 1: a half a mile. Oh, that's fantastic. And I've been
Speaker 1: working like systematically on this, and I'm trying to bump
Speaker 1: up my app because I reached my personal record the
Speaker 1: other day was just three minutes and fifteen seconds, which like,
Speaker 1: you know, look, that's not amazing and objectively, but to me,
Speaker 1: you know, I cut it down from I started. I
Speaker 1: start off it was four minutes thirty because I really
Speaker 1: would like to be able to run like an eight
Speaker 1: minute mile, so I'm kind of or even even under
Speaker 1: eight minutes. Anyway, whatever. I didn't mean to turn the
Speaker 1: spotlight on me, but it's just so interesting because like that,
Speaker 1: that was an accomplishment for me the other day when
Speaker 1: I ran a three minute thirty second half a mile,
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I got my personal best, you know,
Speaker 1: And I don't know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: isn't that what it's all about, is just keep getting
Speaker 1: your own personal best. I mean, I obviously that won't
Speaker 1: get you to the Olympics, so that can't be what
Speaker 1: it's all about. But I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: My point, No, it made me feel alive. I mean,
Speaker 1: the Olympics. I think there's a brilliant lesson to that. Though.
Speaker 1: Please save this say this. No, first off, congratulations because
Speaker 1: that's a very difficult thing to do. No, matter that
Speaker 1: just pushing that boundary for a half mile is very difficult.
Speaker 1: But I think there's a brilliant lesson in this is
Speaker 1: that it's relative to you. So for you, three and
Speaker 1: a half minutes is a great performance right now, and
Speaker 1: you should celebrate it and you should get that confidence
Speaker 1: from doing that. Things for me, like the barrier might
Speaker 1: be different, and the brilliant thing or the interesting thing
Speaker 1: as I age, as we all age, that barrier is
Speaker 1: going to shift. But it's about like doing something that
Speaker 1: is a little bit challenging where it's like, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to push my boundaries and see if I
Speaker 1: can get my personal best or the best that I
Speaker 1: can do right now. And I think there's something brilliant.
Speaker 1: And you know, earlier we talked about Ryan Holiday and stoicism,
Speaker 1: but in one conversation I had, he said something great
Speaker 1: where it was talking about his own running and he's
Speaker 1: and I was asking him, like why do you run?
Speaker 1: And he said, so I can have something that I
Speaker 1: win at every day. Yeah, oh yeah yeah. And it's
Speaker 1: like even if you don't set that personal best, to me,
Speaker 1: it's like it's a win because it's like, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: doing this difficult thing that and striving for something that
Speaker 1: I've never done before. And whether that never done before
Speaker 1: is a four minute mile or an eight minute mile,
Speaker 1: it's still quite accomplishment to do something that you know
Speaker 1: a month or year ago wasn't possible. Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And I also, yeah, I bond with with your home
Speaker 1: slice Brad Stolberg. He is your home slice, right, Yeah, yeah, homeboy.
Speaker 1: I bond with him over weightlifting and nerd out with
Speaker 1: him about that sometimes because it does feel like a
Speaker 1: win when you can kind of get a little bit
Speaker 1: more weight and that's like very like tangible quantifiable improvement
Speaker 1: feels good. Yeah. Again, I think there's just something to it.
Speaker 1: It's like it doesn't have to be exercised, but it
Speaker 1: leads to lifting, running, It just leads to something where
Speaker 1: again it's tangible and you can literally sit there and
Speaker 1: be like I wasn't capable of this, you know, a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and it just makes you feel good. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: So let's jump into pillar three, respond instead of react. Now,
Speaker 1: this is probably the closest thing to Ryan Holiday stoicism.
Speaker 1: I mean, some of this is out of his rule book.
Speaker 1: Keep your mind steady, right, So talk a little about this. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: I think often what happens is when we go through
Speaker 1: challenging times, we often do what I call is react,
Speaker 1: like you're just like, how do I escape this moment
Speaker 1: or how do I fix this as quick as possible?
Speaker 1: And what I'm advocating for is almost a little bit
Speaker 1: of like mindfulness, right, is how do we create the
Speaker 1: space to make sure that we're taking wise action? And
Speaker 1: whyse action doesn't mean the right decision because we have
Speaker 1: no idea what the right decision is. But I think
Speaker 1: if we can create a little bit of that space
Speaker 1: between stimulus and response, then we're going to be in
Speaker 1: a better place to navigate what we're dealing with. And
Speaker 1: the reason for that is simple is because often when
Speaker 1: we're going through challenging times, I almost see it as
Speaker 1: like our brain starts spiraling. It's almost like that snowball,
Speaker 1: like rolling down the hill, and once it gets going,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my gosh, this is really hard to stop,
Speaker 1: like it's going towards the direction. But what I try
Speaker 1: to advocate is, Okay, how do we create a little
Speaker 1: bit of space or how do we could put a
Speaker 1: little bit of barriers in that snowball to slow it
Speaker 1: down just enough so that we can deal with the
Speaker 1: thing that is causing us trouble. Yeah, it's amazing how
Speaker 1: much the mind does affect what you're capable of doing
Speaker 1: and the thoughts you have in your head while you're running,
Speaker 1: while you're while you're doing what you're doing. I just
Speaker 1: I see it so obviously in my own life, you know,
Speaker 1: if I'm you know, thing was, oh my gosh, I'm
Speaker 1: sat of breath, like can I make it another? And
Speaker 1: then I tried another trick the other day where I
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, I'm just going to look
Speaker 1: at the ground when I'm running. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: look up and see how far I have to go.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to look at the ground and just
Speaker 1: basically just like count the specs, you know, And I
Speaker 1: was able to run so much further to me illustrated something.
Speaker 1: What did that illustrate to me? Yeah? So that's brilliant
Speaker 1: because one of the things that again research actually shows
Speaker 1: is shifting your attention works. It works. Did Yeah, it works.
Speaker 1: And what they've actually found studying you know, the greatest marathoners,
Speaker 1: and this applies outside of sport, but it really does
Speaker 1: is the greatest Marathoners aren't focused internally or externally. They
Speaker 1: bounce between and shift their attention based on what works
Speaker 1: in that moment. So sometimes they might be staring at
Speaker 1: the ground. Sometimes they might be looking at the at
Speaker 1: the crowd. Sometimes their focus of attention might be entirely
Speaker 1: internally on how their body feels. But it's that shifting
Speaker 1: because what happens, or what they found is we often
Speaker 1: get stuck. So if you're looking at the horizon and
Speaker 1: you're just looking ahead, your brain gets launched onto oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, I have still so much farther to go?
Speaker 1: How am I going to make it? If you then
Speaker 1: shift your attention to the ground, now your brain almost
Speaker 1: shifts where it's like, okay, I can't see how much
Speaker 1: further I have. I'm going to pay attention to, like
Speaker 1: what's going on in this moment? Next step, next step,
Speaker 1: next step. So it's just one of these tools that
Speaker 1: we can use again regardless of what we're going through.
Speaker 1: And there's some fascinating research that actually ties this to creativity,
Speaker 1: right where if we take a broad view, literally broaden
Speaker 1: out our view and look at you know, almost how
Speaker 1: that panoramic kind of soft gaze versus a narrowed in
Speaker 1: gaze will be a little bit more creative on again,
Speaker 1: tasks that challenge that just from changing our attention and
Speaker 1: our viewpoint. So I think attention. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: skills that we can use, but attention is one of
Speaker 1: these primary things where if we learn how to utilize
Speaker 1: it and shift it, we're going to be in a
Speaker 1: better place. That is so true. That is so true.
Speaker 1: And then let's talk about the last pillar. Let's wrap
Speaker 1: up here because I'm a big fan of transcendence and
Speaker 1: I like how you use the word transcend here. Fourth
Speaker 1: pillar transcend discomfort. So what what is it? Why is
Speaker 1: it important to build a foundation to do the hard
Speaker 1: things in life? So first off, I have to give
Speaker 1: you credit because I chose this title while I was
Speaker 1: reading your fabulous book, Scott. I was we were serious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we went back and forth with the publisher on all
Speaker 1: of these like you always do, and I'm like, we
Speaker 1: were trying wrestling with the right word, and I was
Speaker 1: reading your book again for the second time, and I
Speaker 1: was like, transcend how about that? No idea, I had
Speaker 1: no idea that. I'm honored. I'm honored. So credit credit
Speaker 1: to you. But you know, to answer your question, I
Speaker 1: think so much we think of going through difficult moments,
Speaker 1: and that could be the loss of the loved one,
Speaker 1: or grief or deciding to shift a job. We think
Speaker 1: of them as individual things, but what often allows us
Speaker 1: to do the difficult thing is our invin and those
Speaker 1: around us. So to me, it's going back to, you know, honestly,
Speaker 1: some of the things you talked about in your book,
Speaker 1: but it's do we have the rights the right kind
Speaker 1: of psychological needs fulfilled that allow us to thrive. Do
Speaker 1: we feel like we have a voice and a choice
Speaker 1: and autonomy and that we belong and that we have
Speaker 1: that level of competency and all those things that you
Speaker 1: know you so greatly illustrate and others. If we have
Speaker 1: that foundation, we can make it through difficult things. We
Speaker 1: can better navigate it. And I think that's that's what
Speaker 1: it's about. To me, is it's not just you on
Speaker 1: your on your own on this journey. It's how do
Speaker 1: you create that environment so that you feel like you
Speaker 1: can you essentially maybe tie it all the way back
Speaker 1: to what we talked about at the beginning. Your environment
Speaker 1: creates that security so that you can take on challenges,
Speaker 1: maybe even, but you're okay, and I think that's what
Speaker 1: it's about. Yes, And I think that your final chapter
Speaker 1: on finding meaning and discomfort really dove tails really nicely
Speaker 1: with well the book I have coming on in September.
Speaker 1: Not to plug my book, but why not on post
Speaker 1: traumatic growth and how we can all kind of find
Speaker 1: meaning in the discomfort we've had during this COVID era.
Speaker 1: So I just saw a lot of great similarities. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to point that out. Yeah, No, it's it's
Speaker 1: spot on that. I'm really looking forward to your book
Speaker 1: because you know, in researching this I spent I don't
Speaker 1: know the field as well, but I spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time looking at that post traumatic growth because it's
Speaker 1: so true and I think it's often neglected place. So
Speaker 1: maybe maybe the final chapter will give you a teaser
Speaker 1: and then you can go for the full buffet when
Speaker 1: Scott's book comes out. I'll take it. As long as
Speaker 1: everyone buys your book now so we can all win win.
Speaker 1: I'm about positive some games, so love it. Everyone check
Speaker 1: out Steve's book. I really like it. I tweet out
Speaker 1: the other day that I liked it, and I don't
Speaker 1: say and don't do that kind of stuff that often
Speaker 1: with many books. I really really like Steve's book. As
Speaker 1: I was preparing for this interview, it dawned me just
Speaker 1: how similar we are in terms of like and I
Speaker 1: don't even know what it is like an essence of
Speaker 1: being is the is the closest I can get to describing,
Speaker 1: and I think you know what I mean. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I definitely feel that kindrid spirit, Scott. I appreciate everything
Speaker 1: you're doing too, and it's it's it's making the world
Speaker 1: a better place. So thanks Steve. I wish you all
Speaker 1: the best with the rest of your book tour, and
Speaker 1: thanks for being on The Psychology Podcast. Thanks so much
Speaker 1: for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some
Speaker 1: way to something you heard, I encourage you to join
Speaker 1: in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com or
Speaker 1: on our YouTube page the Psychology Podcast. We also put
Speaker 1: up some videos of some episodes on our YouTube page
Speaker 1: as well, so you'll want to check that out. Thanks
Speaker 1: for being such a great supporter of the show, and
Speaker 1: tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity.