Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Rich Schwartz, but uses the world.
Speaker 2: I'm Marco Wentz.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of
Speaker 3: wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts.
Speaker 3: This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and
Speaker 3: San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation organization
Speaker 3: which oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 4: Oh Senor, It's October and that means we both have
Speaker 4: been doing a lot of interviews for Kids Free Month
Speaker 4: at the Zoo and the Safari Park.
Speaker 1: Oh, I know, I know what you mean.
Speaker 3: Kids Free Month in October, the Autumn Festival to Safari Park.
Speaker 3: How Gloween is the San Diego Zoo. We have been
Speaker 3: busy letting everyone know all the details.
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess we should let our audience know
Speaker 4: that too, huh. I mean, just in case anyone hasn't
Speaker 4: heard yet. During the month of October, kids ages eleven
Speaker 4: and under can get into the San Diego Zoo or
Speaker 4: the Safari Park for free with a paid adult ticket.
Speaker 1: It's true that it's true.
Speaker 3: And the Autumn Festival it's a Safari Park that's on
Speaker 3: Saturdays and Sundays. And Howgloween at a zoo that's on Fridays,
Speaker 3: Saturdays and Sundays, and both are included with your admission
Speaker 3: to either park. But you know what, I have to admit, Marco,
Speaker 3: every time I do an interview about Kids Free or
Speaker 3: Hogloween or whatever, they always ask about the giant pandas.
Speaker 5: Oh, friend, I know what you mean.
Speaker 4: I mean it's usially like, oh, how are the pandas doing?
Speaker 2: Or do you get to see the pandas every day
Speaker 2: since you work there?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 3: I know. And then there's the popular Hey, can you
Speaker 3: give me behind the scenes to see the pandas?
Speaker 2: I know that's right.
Speaker 4: I mean, sure, they're not birds, but you know, they
Speaker 4: are truly a special addition to the zoo, and you know,
Speaker 4: everyone wants.
Speaker 5: To know how they're doing well.
Speaker 3: As much as I would like to offer a special
Speaker 3: behind the scenes panda tour to all of our listeners,
Speaker 3: their family, their friends, that's just not something we're going
Speaker 3: to get approval on.
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking we should do the next best thing.
Speaker 2: You mean, like an aviary tour. Oh, Marco, alright, I'm
Speaker 2: just kiddy.
Speaker 6: I'm just kiddy.
Speaker 2: Although it does give me an idea.
Speaker 3: No Marco, no my aviary tourists, but we should go
Speaker 3: into the zoo and talk to someone who knows a
Speaker 3: lot about giant pandas, their behavior and how they're settling
Speaker 3: into life at the same Diego Zoo.
Speaker 4: All right, fair enough, I guess we should head to
Speaker 4: the zoo and hey, I'll tell you what.
Speaker 3: If you're good during the interview, we'll stop at one
Speaker 3: of the aviary's on the way out.
Speaker 2: Okay, oh goody.
Speaker 6: I am Nicki Boyd. I am Curator of Mammals, Ambassadors
Speaker 6: and Applied Behavior.
Speaker 5: That's a lot of stuff there, Nikki.
Speaker 3: As far as your title goes, we're actually here to
Speaker 3: talk about pandas.
Speaker 5: I didn't hear pandas in that.
Speaker 6: Title their mammal Okay, fair enough.
Speaker 3: Well, as I mentioned, Nikki, we are here to find
Speaker 3: out an update on the pandas, and I do know
Speaker 3: actually you work quite a bit with the pandas and
Speaker 3: the teams that work with the pandas, and part of
Speaker 3: what your title is also behavior, which is also important.
Speaker 3: We're going to get into all of that, but first
Speaker 3: and foremost, i'd love to hear your immediate thoughts on
Speaker 3: how are the pandas doing right now.
Speaker 6: They're doing really well. The mail is pretty chill, you know,
Speaker 6: you and Chwan, he's pretty fun to watch. He just
Speaker 6: loves to pile the bamboo all over himself and set
Speaker 6: up on his climbing structure. I know, I was laughing.
Speaker 6: I'm like, he loves his bamboo and I'll turn around
Speaker 6: all you can see his bottom feet stick it out
Speaker 6: of green. So yeah, they're really fun to watch. They're
Speaker 6: really getting playful, like you see all the panda videos
Speaker 6: if you do, like all my reels are just panda
Speaker 6: videos now then rolling downhills and why were they not
Speaker 6: extinct because they're you know, always falling off of things.
Speaker 6: And he was just like rolling through the habitat with
Speaker 6: one of his logs. So part of our outcome based
Speaker 6: husband is to feed them in a way that creates
Speaker 6: like a bamboo grove where they have to pull it out.
Speaker 6: So we have these logs that have holes killed in
Speaker 6: them and all the bamboos stuck in there. And well
Speaker 6: he pulled all the bamboo out and then he started
Speaker 6: rolling on his back and rolling the log over and
Speaker 6: flipping it and running up and climbing his tree. We
Speaker 6: call it a bonzai tree, but it's a really big
Speaker 6: squatty pine tree, and he climbs up and looks out
Speaker 6: the top and it looks like he's like driving his
Speaker 6: space ship. It's really very buddy. So yeah, so he's
Speaker 6: like he's chill, but then he's also starting to have fun,
Speaker 6: like coming to his element.
Speaker 2: Oh cool, that's really great.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't ask you that you really quick in
Speaker 4: case our listeners aren't aware when you said outcome based husbandry,
Speaker 4: Like what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Like, what's a quick way to describe that.
Speaker 6: So a lot of people are familiar with like zoos
Speaker 6: do enrichment. So now we talk about experiences, and so
Speaker 6: when we do an experience, we try to mimic some
Speaker 6: of the natural behavior of an animal in the wild.
Speaker 6: And so we have inputs, which are things that you
Speaker 6: put in, but we're looking really for the outcomes. And
Speaker 6: so if you want to pana to eat bamboo like
Speaker 6: a panda wood in the wild, how do you create that?
Speaker 6: What's the input which is those logs as I mentioned,
Speaker 6: with the holes jill in them, and you just stock
Speaker 6: the fresh bamboo in there, and then the outcome is
Speaker 6: them just sitting and processing food longer like they naturally would,
Speaker 6: So we consider that an outcome, and the way that
Speaker 6: we manage animals is called husbandry, and so outcome based
Speaker 6: husbandry is just a term that we use in the
Speaker 6: zoo and kind of cool that San Diego Zoo has
Speaker 6: kind of like coined this phrase and we teach it
Speaker 6: around the world and a lot of people are focusing
Speaker 6: on that because it's about the closest thing you can
Speaker 6: to having natural behavior of a wild panda. So it's
Speaker 6: really cool and we use it for so many different species.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I love it.
Speaker 4: I mean, I remember one scenario. Another bear like grizzly
Speaker 4: is an example, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 4: But the little thing seasonal for instance, buds will start
Speaker 4: coming out of a flower, right, and that'll be a cute.
Speaker 4: The springtime is coming and perhaps you know, maybe fish
Speaker 4: will be coming at a certain point depending on the season,
Speaker 4: And so that's really great that you guys do that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love the different seasonal ones. We have a
Speaker 6: forest fire one, we have the spring fruiting experience. The
Speaker 6: fish one you mentioned will do a dry season where
Speaker 6: the water will get lower in the pool and then
Speaker 6: it's easier to catch the fish, so then we have
Speaker 6: like river rock in there, and then the grizzly go fishing.
Speaker 2: So it's not just throwing a ball in a habitat.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, trying to get away from that, and so
Speaker 6: it's fun to talk about it because it might not
Speaker 6: be as obvious to just the person walking by a habitat.
Speaker 6: But I just need you all to know that it's
Speaker 6: a very thoughtful process that we're doing all the time
Speaker 6: with a bunch of different species. And so when you
Speaker 6: get to see an animal being a bear or a
Speaker 6: diraffe that's foraging for multiple hours, it's part of our
Speaker 6: thoughtful outcome based systry process.
Speaker 4: Thanks for explaining that, and hopefully now our guests when
Speaker 4: they're coming to the zoo of the park, they can
Speaker 4: take a little more extra time and kind of see
Speaker 4: all the nuances of what a wildlife care specialist does.
Speaker 2: Right, And you were mentioning Yu and Chuan, what about Singbao?
Speaker 2: How is she doing out there?
Speaker 6: So she's been a character since she got here. Oh yeah,
Speaker 6: even when they went to China and to visit her,
Speaker 6: she was rolling down the hill and she had this
Speaker 6: little stomp off the wall and give a little side eye.
Speaker 2: Like I used to do Panda side eye.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Canda side eye. So everyone and in a while
Speaker 6: Gaileen will be like, oh, she just gave us a
Speaker 6: side eye. So it's just her being very aware of
Speaker 6: her environment. So she has I like to describe the
Speaker 6: two habitats as once more of Chinese mountain side. So
Speaker 6: she's got this great hill landscape. In the very beginning,
Speaker 6: she was laying at the very top checking out her kingdom,
Speaker 6: you know, her purview. She could see people making her bamboo,
Speaker 6: so she was kind of really watching out for the
Speaker 6: bamboo to arrive. Now she's down front and center.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: Sometimes on hot days she was the air conditioning. But
Speaker 6: they love their climbing structure, and so she's all over
Speaker 6: the habitat. Un Schwan's in what I like to call
Speaker 6: the intimate forest view have a habitat. So you'll see
Speaker 6: the two different sides, and we're actually gonna rotate them.
Speaker 6: We're going to give them a couple of months to
Speaker 6: acclimate into the spaces they're at now, and then we'll
Speaker 6: swap them. Because the male actually normally have a bigger territory.
Speaker 6: We felt when we first got to know her that
Speaker 6: she would benefit from having a bigger space. If she
Speaker 6: wanted to retreat, she could. He was a lot more chill,
Speaker 6: and she was kind of honking at us at first,
Speaker 6: which is a vocalization of why are all these people
Speaker 6: looking at me? And not that there was that many,
Speaker 6: but we acclimated them pretty slowly with like six people
Speaker 6: and she was fine. And ten people come in, she
Speaker 6: look at everybody and do a little honk, and so
Speaker 6: we were like, okay, she's telling us like, what are
Speaker 6: you doing in my space? And then eventually she just
Speaker 6: go back to eating her bamboo and she realized everything
Speaker 6: was fine. So we slowly brought more and more people
Speaker 6: in and now she's totally fine. But we were very
Speaker 6: thoughtful about which habitat they could each go in, and
Speaker 6: our Chinese colleagues were here and they wanted him to
Speaker 6: have bigger space right off the bat. Not only is
Speaker 6: that natural behavior where the male has a bigger territory,
Speaker 6: but it builds up their strength for breeding, which is
Speaker 6: going to happen down the road, not this year. We
Speaker 6: were able to negotiate and say, you know, we really
Speaker 6: think she would benefit from this bigger space, and so
Speaker 6: they were like, that sounds reasonable. We'll give them two
Speaker 6: or three months and then we'll swap them and see
Speaker 6: how they do. So that's the plan.
Speaker 3: That was one thing you just mentioned that talking back
Speaker 3: and forth and negotiating like what would be the best
Speaker 3: for the individual animals. I want to dive a little
Speaker 3: more into the collaboration that it's taken, because obviously there
Speaker 3: were people in China taking care of the pandas before
Speaker 3: they got here. But talk a little bit about the collaboration,
Speaker 3: not only what we're experiencing now, but maybe just a
Speaker 3: little bit of history on it too.
Speaker 6: Yeah. So you know, we had giant pantas here for
Speaker 6: twenty two years before, and we had a great relationship
Speaker 6: with our Chinese partners, and I just remember people saying
Speaker 6: it was kind of like a homecoming when we went
Speaker 6: back over there. It's a lot of the same people
Speaker 6: were here. I know, you had Megan Owen on the podcast,
Speaker 6: and so when she was there, you know, Paul was
Speaker 6: describing it was like hugging in tears. And we've had
Speaker 6: a long relationship, which is great for building trust and collaboration,
Speaker 6: as you mentioned, And so this time we had some
Speaker 6: people who had been there before and bringing some of
Speaker 6: our newer folks, so doctor Meg c Eedlin Smith, doctor
Speaker 6: Ben Nevitt, who's taking her place as she rolls into retirement.
Speaker 6: Greg and Jessica, my boss and his partner in welfare
Speaker 6: assess the bears and got to go with Gayleen who
Speaker 6: had worked with the bears before. So it's kind of
Speaker 6: this great collaboration with the Chinese colleagues going to China,
Speaker 6: and then as they came over. We have about six
Speaker 6: wilivecare specialists that are assigned to the panda area. Three
Speaker 6: of them worked with the pandas before and three of
Speaker 6: them are new, so we are also teaching, like our
Speaker 6: next generation of wildfecare specialists how to take care of pandas.
Speaker 6: And then the Chinese colleagues are right here with us
Speaker 6: talking about how they do it in China, and two
Speaker 6: of the new Wildfecare specialists went to China as well.
Speaker 6: Jana and Jessica got to go over there and see
Speaker 6: the bears before they came over, so they share a
Speaker 6: lot of information of how they do stuff. But I
Speaker 6: think they're also learning a lot from us too, like
Speaker 6: the outcome bas when Jews we just talked, So I
Speaker 6: think they're going to take some stuff back to China
Speaker 6: that they've learned from us, and then I really look
Speaker 6: forward to the conservation potential with this. So we have,
Speaker 6: you know, our conservation hubs, and Asia is one of
Speaker 6: the hubs, and I was an Asian Hub leader, So
Speaker 6: I of course love red pandas. If anyone knows, I was.
Speaker 4: Just going to say, your absolutely favorite, and well, what
Speaker 4: is the red panda really quick, just in case people.
Speaker 6: It's a small carnivore. They're called panda because both giant
Speaker 6: panas and red pantas eat bamboo. Oh that's why Punya
Speaker 6: is bamboo eater, and so panda came from Punya, which
Speaker 6: is a name that they called them. I like to
Speaker 6: call them the op the original panda.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 6: They're not related to each other. So giant pantas are
Speaker 6: in the bear family and red pantas are in their
Speaker 6: own family. It's called a lure po to day. And
Speaker 6: so that's what's kind of fun about science, is like
Speaker 6: it's sometimes changing and learning. The more technology you have,
Speaker 6: the more you learn. So now there's actually two species
Speaker 6: of panda. They used to be subspecies. So there's a
Speaker 6: Chinese red panda and a West turn nor Himalayan red panda,
Speaker 6: and so they have enough differences genetically that they are
Speaker 6: considered two different species now, which just came out in
Speaker 6: the last couple of years. So since Rick and I
Speaker 6: were red panic keepers back in the day in the
Speaker 6: old Yeah, that's great. String I moved up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, podcast, Yeah, I.
Speaker 6: Want to hear you know, when you give your string
Speaker 6: over to somebody, you really trust them.
Speaker 5: And for those listening, who so we're having a moment
Speaker 5: here right now.
Speaker 3: The string is an area that a staff member wildlife
Speaker 3: care specialist cares for.
Speaker 5: And in the area that I started in.
Speaker 3: Children Zu Nikki was a full time senior wildlife care
Speaker 3: specialist at the time, and she trained me on it
Speaker 3: was what red pandas otters. We had porcupine in one
Speaker 3: of the habitats, we had naked morats and I'm trying
Speaker 3: to think who else was over there, bandar was over there?
Speaker 5: They been wrong. Yeah, So and then we did the
Speaker 5: back area that had the goody and the tamandoa.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So that was what she means when she says
Speaker 3: a string, that's an area we referred to as a
Speaker 3: sort of string of habit attats.
Speaker 5: If you will that you take care of. I love
Speaker 5: the history we had red pandas.
Speaker 3: Yes, And so to go back to the saying how
Speaker 3: science change things, I think obviously, when I first started,
Speaker 3: it was only considered one species of red panda with
Speaker 3: a subspecies idea, and it had just been a few
Speaker 3: years that they decided red pandas and giant pandas were
Speaker 3: not related.
Speaker 5: At that time, it was like the late nineties, early
Speaker 5: two thousand, right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've been writing an article for our like kids
Speaker 6: call a club or a newsletter and saying, what do
Speaker 6: you kids think? So that's what's fun about science is
Speaker 6: it's changing and different scientists, you know, find different discoveries.
Speaker 6: And so we've had scientific names change on us. You
Speaker 6: memorize one for a long time and then it changes.
Speaker 6: And you know, giant pandas and red pantas live in
Speaker 6: the same habitat, and so they were thought, well, why
Speaker 6: aren't they really they both eating.
Speaker 5: Bamboo, they have the bone and the wrists.
Speaker 6: Yeah, must be red. I bet, I bet it's still
Speaker 6: up for debate, and I bet there'll still be some
Speaker 6: scientists trying to decide if they should be in the
Speaker 6: same family or not.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad he brought it up because I love
Speaker 4: to remind people just diversity of animals and plants that
Speaker 4: live in that area.
Speaker 2: I mean, giant pandas are amazing.
Speaker 4: As I'm a bird guy, you know, the Asian crusted
Speaker 4: iyeb is endangered species at bird that really needs a
Speaker 4: lot of help, so many others Chinese alligator as well,
Speaker 4: So it's going to help a lot of species with
Speaker 4: the work we're doing with the giant pandas.
Speaker 6: Right, absolutely, so, I think of giant pan as as
Speaker 6: an umbrella species. And so if you save habitat for
Speaker 6: giant pan as, you're helping the red panda, Chinese minol.
Speaker 6: Any of the reptiles that might be in the lower elevations, well,
Speaker 6: the main mountain viper is actually up there, and that's
Speaker 6: you can see that if you come to Pandaridge, you'll
Speaker 6: see this beautiful green viper that was only discovered since
Speaker 6: I think the nineteen seventies, so I'm sure the indigenous
Speaker 6: people knew about them a long time. I got, but
Speaker 6: really like scientifically categorized and we've mastered breeding that ming
Speaker 6: mountain viper. So our reptil team is amazing. And so yeah,
Speaker 6: when you comee through panda ridge also see red panda,
Speaker 6: So we have Cola the red panda over there, and
Speaker 6: trying to let people see the habitat looks natural as
Speaker 6: I described them already, but also some of the other
Speaker 6: species that would live in that same habitat, because to
Speaker 6: see a panda in the wild would be really hard,
Speaker 6: almost impossible to write. Yeah, And so that's what I
Speaker 6: think the value of zoos and getting people excited about
Speaker 6: not only being able to see them and kind of
Speaker 6: create that empathy and get to see those personalities as
Speaker 6: we're just describing, you know, but also just see like
Speaker 6: a habitat set up like it might be in the wild.
Speaker 6: And our architects were very thoughtful about how we design
Speaker 6: the space. Of course, the trees that went in, I know,
Speaker 6: you had Adam Graves on here.
Speaker 5: It was amazing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, we have to approve every tree,
Speaker 6: every plant that goes in there, and making sure that
Speaker 6: you're never going to put a toxic plant in with
Speaker 6: any animal, not just giant pandas. But it's quite a process.
Speaker 6: I don't think people realize what it takes to set
Speaker 6: up a habitat, you know, kidding.
Speaker 5: And then the maintenant once the pandas are in the yeah, right, Actually.
Speaker 2: With that, I wanted to ask you earlier.
Speaker 4: They're going to stain the existing habitats are in for
Speaker 4: about what two three months? You were saying, yeah, and
Speaker 4: then rotate them around. And we were talking earlier just
Speaker 4: to remind guess that this is still a bear, right,
Speaker 4: and these are more solitary animals for the most part,
Speaker 4: because I remember when they had arrived here, a bunch
Speaker 4: of guests are asking me why are they together? You know,
Speaker 4: but if you heard the episode with Megan, you would
Speaker 4: remember that, folks, this is a bear species, a solidary
Speaker 4: bear species. So there are some behavioral nuances you and
Speaker 4: the team have to do right when you're engaging with
Speaker 4: these animals on a day to day.
Speaker 6: Yeah. And a lot of people don't realize like such
Speaker 6: a small breeding window too, so it's like, yeah, three
Speaker 6: days once a year, so.
Speaker 2: We've three days once a year, right, Yeah, wow, I know.
Speaker 6: So I appreciate that you said that, because we do
Speaker 6: want to focus on natural behavior, right, So it wouldn't
Speaker 6: be normal for them to live together, and you know,
Speaker 6: they've been side by side and two habitats and they
Speaker 6: know each other's there. They have an amazing sense of
Speaker 6: smell hearing site, and so they could actually if they're
Speaker 6: in the right angle we have a gate open or something,
Speaker 6: they can kind of see each other. They know each
Speaker 6: other's there, but they're happy in their own spaces. So
Speaker 6: when it comes to you know, introductions and stuff, we
Speaker 6: had six cubs before, so we're obviously pretty good at it,
Speaker 6: and a lot of like I mentioned, those people that
Speaker 6: were here before, are going to help teach the next
Speaker 6: generation of pandora if care specialists how to take care
Speaker 6: of them. So a lot of what we do is scientific.
Speaker 6: It's understanding nutrition and horticulture, but understanding behavior, natural biology,
Speaker 6: ecology and wrapping that all together. So I have the
Speaker 6: most respect for wilfecare specialists. I know we have all
Speaker 6: been wildfecare specialists, but it's just everyone's taken it to
Speaker 6: the next level and it makes me really proud to
Speaker 6: work here. So I know you guys too.
Speaker 5: Of course, of course I want to touch on the
Speaker 5: top of it.
Speaker 3: We mentioned your title has the word behavior, and if
Speaker 3: we've mentioned it quite a bit as we go through
Speaker 3: this process, what are some of the behaviors that we're
Speaker 3: working on with the pandas now that they're here, or
Speaker 3: did they come with everything already like downloaded they know
Speaker 3: everything to do.
Speaker 6: That's a great question, and we just had a meeting
Speaker 6: this week, so it's very appropriate that we talk about
Speaker 6: it right now with the updates. So we love for
Speaker 6: animals to cooperate in their own health care, and so
Speaker 6: we're working with our wildlife health teams and say, okay,
Speaker 6: what's our priority. So voluntary blood jaw that'll be great
Speaker 6: to do. And so we have this really cool like
Speaker 6: blood sleeve that you can safely train a bear to
Speaker 6: put its arm in and access veins and do a
Speaker 6: voluntary blood draw. So that was one of the top priorities.
Speaker 6: A mouth open behavior so that you can look at
Speaker 6: the teeth on a regular basis. Mouth opens one of
Speaker 6: the harder behaviors for me to train.
Speaker 2: Actually haven't trained myself.
Speaker 6: It's really hard. It's easy to get them to kind
Speaker 6: of open quickly, it's the duration and holding. We trained
Speaker 6: it on all the bears that we had before. I
Speaker 6: know it could be done pretty easily, but I always
Speaker 6: joke it's the bane of my existence. I've tried to
Speaker 6: train it on cats and cats it's one of the
Speaker 6: harder ones. It took us like a year and a
Speaker 6: half to train it on Diego with us a lot
Speaker 6: and it finally what got in was so sometimes you
Speaker 6: use props and things, and so I had tried like
Speaker 6: a ball or tongs and different things, and it was
Speaker 6: a rock for him.
Speaker 5: So whatever works right.
Speaker 6: A lot of times with bears, we do diluted honey
Speaker 6: sometimes as a high value reinforcer. So that's basically like
Speaker 6: the treat they want the most, and so they'll open
Speaker 6: their mouth for that, and so sometimes you can capture it,
Speaker 6: which is, you know, a tool in training that you
Speaker 6: can bridge and reinforce for the appropriate response. The duration
Speaker 6: is where you have to have your patients and they
Speaker 6: have to have patience because sometimes so like oh, you
Speaker 6: just want me to open my mouth, but you quickly
Speaker 6: have to ask them to hold it open a little
Speaker 6: bit longer. Maybe get a flashlight so you can see
Speaker 6: all the teeth, so mouth open will be a good
Speaker 6: behavior to have, especially a lot of people don't realize
Speaker 6: giant pants have the strongest jaw strength of any bear
Speaker 6: because they're chewing bamboo like twelve hours a day, so
Speaker 6: the super super muscles in there, but they also have
Speaker 6: to break through that calm, and so they've got great teeth.
Speaker 6: Our vets that went over to China got to do
Speaker 6: it what we call appreciament exam. Make sure that they're
Speaker 6: all healthy and that everything is good to go. So,
Speaker 6: but as they get older, like we have. You know,
Speaker 6: bears will live about thirty years. So we had bears
Speaker 6: that teeth start to wear out, and so you want
Speaker 6: to keep an eye on that. You might not want
Speaker 6: to give them giant calm to eat, which is the
Speaker 6: big stalky part of the bamboo. So being able to
Speaker 6: keep a close eye on that, and sometimes you just
Speaker 6: get something stuck in your teeth and so you know,
Speaker 6: if you ever want to look in an animal's mouth,
Speaker 6: it gives you a lot of information.
Speaker 5: No, totally.
Speaker 2: I mean I've trained my dog, your brush, your teeth
Speaker 2: every day.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: I did that with my puzzle.
Speaker 5: Oh you did that.
Speaker 4: It's are we talking before or we're talking about conditioning
Speaker 4: certain behaviors or animals.
Speaker 2: We were doing promotions, right and someone out of town.
Speaker 3: Do you want to say, well, yeah, so, Nikki, we
Speaker 3: got stumped. I think it was the first time Marco
Speaker 3: and I have done video tours. You're locally for a
Speaker 3: couple of years now multiple times a year, and this
Speaker 3: one question stumped us because we just didn't know. The
Speaker 3: question the DJ gave us during the morning interview was
Speaker 3: did the pandas need to learn English for their behaviors?
Speaker 3: So we're giving English commands or did our staff learn Chinese?
Speaker 3: Or were the bears taught English commands before they.
Speaker 5: Came over, because there are some basic.
Speaker 3: Behaviors the bears already knew obviously, so we will pose
Speaker 3: that question to you because we didn't know the.
Speaker 1: Answer to that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well it's funny and I might be overthinking a
Speaker 6: little bit, but I'm laughing because you know, they don't
Speaker 6: actually know English or Chinese. You know, they don't speak
Speaker 6: the language. So somebody asked me that as well. And
Speaker 6: so the cues that you give in training, you often
Speaker 6: have a visual cue. So you might want an animal
Speaker 6: to target, which might look like a little round, you know,
Speaker 6: lollipop target we call those, or like a little ball
Speaker 6: and a stick or a buoi like you might see
Speaker 6: in a pool. And so by presenting that boui, you
Speaker 6: know you're reinforcing the behavior you want. So you can
Speaker 6: give a short command or que is what we should
Speaker 6: call it really, So we give a queue and so
Speaker 6: you might say target and you're actually showing the target.
Speaker 6: So do they understand the word target? Probably not as
Speaker 6: much as they understand they need.
Speaker 1: To touch a body pop.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 6: So I've watched training all over the world, and I
Speaker 6: can understand what the person wants even if I don't
Speaker 6: speak that language, because I can see the visual. Whether
Speaker 6: it's a turn for an elephant, you might put your
Speaker 6: hand out to your side with a flat palm, and
Speaker 6: so that's what's most important, is what was the visual
Speaker 6: que and then pairing it with a short, consistent que.
Speaker 6: So for a dog, when you say sit, it's not
Speaker 6: that the dog speaks English, but he starts to understand
Speaker 6: that the tone of the word sit, and then you're
Speaker 6: probably using a visual queue some way, and then he
Speaker 6: gets reinforced when he does it right, So then he
Speaker 6: starts to put those together and learn. So, yes, they
Speaker 6: will learn cues, but learning the language is a little far.
Speaker 6: But I think we just started off with our expectations
Speaker 6: and so they just had to learn our system. So
Speaker 6: maybe that's a better way to put it, is they
Speaker 6: learned our system, so they learned English. Are they knew Chinese,
Speaker 6: but they probably had different cues. We are probably taking
Speaker 6: to another level just because we have a lot of
Speaker 6: goals in mind and we love that cooperative care and
Speaker 6: they're very phone motivated, so that makes our job. So Yeah,
Speaker 6: they're ready to go. They love little bits of apple yam. Yeah,
Speaker 6: we got a couple of things approved for a recall.
Speaker 6: We're going to try working on a tone that's basically
Speaker 6: a cow bell.
Speaker 2: Can you describe the recall?
Speaker 6: Yeah, we train a lot of recalls here around the
Speaker 6: zoo when we want to bring animals in for whatever reason,
Speaker 6: a tree could fall, you know, we want to make
Speaker 6: sure that we can bring them in when we want,
Speaker 6: no matter what's happening in the habitat. And so the
Speaker 6: way you do that is you have a special tone.
Speaker 2: You have usually a.
Speaker 6: Daily recall, and then you have a special tone recall
Speaker 6: that you can bring them in in case you really
Speaker 6: need to do it, no matter what's happening in the habitat.
Speaker 6: So you have something super high value that you save
Speaker 6: just for that tone. So some of our ears we
Speaker 6: have a recess bell, like at tigers or polar bears
Speaker 6: or gorilla and then for the pandas we just have
Speaker 6: a cow bell. The reason we have recess belt some
Speaker 6: spaces is they have a water feature and it's pretty loud.
Speaker 6: We got to make something really loud over a waterfall,
Speaker 6: and the cow bell you can hear through the whole habitat.
Speaker 6: So when we do the daily recall, we pair that
Speaker 6: with the cow bell sound and then they get the
Speaker 6: really high value reinforcers. So we've got an approved currents nectar.
Speaker 6: We don't give yam as much as we give carrots,
Speaker 6: so we're going to hold back yam and use that
Speaker 6: because they really like yam. And we even got to
Speaker 6: test out some sugarcane. So just for this special recall
Speaker 6: that we want to do, and that is a tool
Speaker 6: in our toolbox. And if you need to bring a
Speaker 6: bear in quickly and there might be something distracting out
Speaker 6: like a tree fell or some loud noise, and so
Speaker 6: this tone hopefully is so embedded that I'm going to
Speaker 6: get the best thing ever.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: It's like the ice cream trucks, you know, And so
Speaker 6: they come in and you can secure them and give
Speaker 6: them that high value reinforcer.
Speaker 3: I have to say to you just how impressive it
Speaker 3: is that our teams do this so well. A few
Speaker 3: years ago we were filming for the Animal Planet show
Speaker 3: over at Tigers and they're like, this is going to
Speaker 3: be a big test, and they let us, you know,
Speaker 3: show up to film it, like see if it works.
Speaker 5: We didn't know for sure.
Speaker 3: We had put a carcass in with the tigers, so this,
Speaker 3: you know, there's a full buffet of yumminess that this
Speaker 3: cat now has pulled into an area where it feels
Speaker 3: safe and slightly undercover, enjoying this carcass. And then they
Speaker 3: do the recall sound and that tiger was like what
Speaker 3: oo and up there right away and inside and I
Speaker 3: was like wow, because when you understand for a carnival
Speaker 3: like a tiger, what that carcass means to it versus Nope,
Speaker 3: this high reinforcer is much more valuable. I can come
Speaker 3: back to this later if I have to. It was
Speaker 3: very impressive and I great tool.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I have that video and I use it all
Speaker 6: the time we did it, so yeah, that was really
Speaker 6: impressive that it worked at that time, and that was
Speaker 6: one of the biggest tests we'd ever tried it on.
Speaker 6: And it was funny. You saw the tiger's face looking
Speaker 6: around like, wait, I heard the dough, I gotta go.
Speaker 6: So yeah, it just showed the power of that conditioning
Speaker 6: and how strong it was, and so definitely a really
Speaker 6: good tool. And we have an academy class that we
Speaker 6: teach it teaches other zoos how to use it too,
Speaker 6: so that you know, we're talking collaboration, like we collaborate
Speaker 6: with so many other zoos and these kind of tools
Speaker 6: other zoos use as well. But after I presented at
Speaker 6: a couple conferences and I showed that Animal Planet video,
Speaker 6: I got a lot of calls that next week I
Speaker 6: had to do that. I want to do that, we
Speaker 6: need to do it.
Speaker 3: At our So yeah, I want to jump back real quick,
Speaker 3: and we're getting close to time, so I want to
Speaker 3: be senstive of that. I know you had a lot
Speaker 3: to do, You're very busy, but I want to jump
Speaker 3: back to what we're talking about with the cues for
Speaker 3: training and verbal words in different languages, and you had
Speaker 3: mentioned that they're really more visual. They're picking up on
Speaker 3: what we're doing more than what we're saying, and I
Speaker 3: just wanted to highlight that for our AUDI It's because
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people as a very sound
Speaker 3: centered and visual centered species where we're looking and listening
Speaker 3: for language and what's being said, versus working with species
Speaker 3: marcos mostly birds, but I know you've worked with other
Speaker 3: animals as well. Nick and I both have worked with
Speaker 3: multiple species, and from the human side of it's a
Speaker 3: matter of understanding their body language nuances.
Speaker 5: A little details of a subtle stuff.
Speaker 3: But then in return, because that's what they read in
Speaker 3: each other as when we're working with them, it's the
Speaker 3: visual cues usually that can have more communication value than
Speaker 3: whatever word we choose to pair with it.
Speaker 5: So I thought that was really cool that you brought
Speaker 5: that up.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'd love behavior watching behavior. It's a study of
Speaker 6: one and so you could have you know, we had
Speaker 6: four pandas go through a hearing study we did last time,
Speaker 6: which helped understand the threshold they could hear, so that
Speaker 6: we could tell conservationists in China or where the giant
Speaker 6: pantis were building their den sites. This is the level
Speaker 6: of hearing. So don't build a road you know, too
Speaker 6: close to this, or don't do construction while they're doneying
Speaker 6: with cubs. And so each was slightly different. And I
Speaker 6: just remember Bay you she would be like, give me
Speaker 6: my food now, and she would be like ripping the
Speaker 6: target off the wall, and we had it like you know,
Speaker 6: she had to touch her nose to the target when
Speaker 6: she could hear the tone. So we learned she needed
Speaker 6: to eat half an hour before, so we gave her
Speaker 6: like a bit of bamboo like twenty minutes before tick
Speaker 6: the edge off, and then she was like, now I
Speaker 6: can focus on training.
Speaker 4: I feel yeah, a lot of people right now, yeah,
Speaker 4: before I get like you said, every animal is different,
Speaker 4: there are some nuances, like to your point in Rick,
Speaker 4: regardless of the species.
Speaker 2: There's a tools in our.
Speaker 4: Toolkit that we can apply for all these different species,
Speaker 4: you know, and everyone's so excited about giant panic. The
Speaker 4: energy has been amazing right here at the zoo. So
Speaker 4: really thank you for all that. Is there anything like
Speaker 4: specific you want to communicate to her guesting that you
Speaker 4: want them to know about these two giant pans living here?
Speaker 6: Well, I think if you can come and see them,
Speaker 6: if you haven't already, come back, because every day's different.
Speaker 6: But they will steal your heart. People say that's the appeal?
Speaker 6: Why is this pandemonium and everything? And then they watch
Speaker 6: them and they go, I get it now, I just
Speaker 6: there's just something about them. It's the pattern, it's the personality,
Speaker 6: the way they eat. They yeah, they'll like sit like
Speaker 6: a Buddha and they like their crumbs are falling on
Speaker 6: their chest. I don't know, there's something relatable. People joke
Speaker 6: it's every guy in a panda suit in there. Just
Speaker 6: watching them is just it's so kind of cool that
Speaker 6: they can be that attractive to people, and that they
Speaker 6: can be this umbrella species for conservation for all these
Speaker 6: animals in that habitat of China. So I think if
Speaker 6: you come, you'll find that they'll steal your heart and
Speaker 6: you'll understand the appeal if you don't already understand it,
Speaker 6: and you'll get to see them really. As we already said,
Speaker 6: they're settled in now. But if you come when it's cooler,
Speaker 6: they're very active and you'll see them smell the crowd.
Speaker 6: Sometimes somebody walks in with some strong perfume. You'll see
Speaker 6: them get up and lift their nose in their They
Speaker 6: have all these senses and if if you just take
Speaker 6: time to watch any animal, really, but if you spend
Speaker 6: a little bit of time watching, you'll get a window
Speaker 6: into what we're talking about here, where you get to
Speaker 6: watch them behavior and you can go, oh, I see
Speaker 6: now what they're doing, or wow, I can see that
Speaker 6: ipposable thumb work in that bamboo. So it's fun to
Speaker 6: watch me. It's I mean, it's fun just to watch
Speaker 6: them like play in the pool, just lay there. It's
Speaker 6: like people are just so excited to be able to
Speaker 6: see them with their own two eyes. And pretty soon
Speaker 6: we're gonna be the only zoo in North America have them,
Speaker 6: and so we hope that people enjoy them, they get
Speaker 6: to come, get inspired, and then everybody that comes helps
Speaker 6: support our mission. Right, so the more people that come
Speaker 6: see them, the more we have resources to do our
Speaker 6: conservation work.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Nick.
Speaker 3: You don't appreciate your time today.
Speaker 6: I'm hanging out with you guys. Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Now that was a giant panda update, right.
Speaker 4: And not just a giant panda update. We learned a
Speaker 4: lot more about the behaviors, the enrichment experiences, a little
Speaker 4: about red pandas, and the fact that you took care
Speaker 4: of red pandas back when you first started at the
Speaker 4: San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I did, along with many other species of wildlife.
Speaker 3: But I have to say, for me, I thought it
Speaker 3: was interesting how Nikki also shared with us a lot
Speaker 3: of the work our teams are doing to better understand
Speaker 3: nutritional needs, biological needs, and all of the behavior studies
Speaker 3: we do.
Speaker 4: Oh I know, and the behaviors that they're working on
Speaker 4: so the pandas can participate in their own care.
Speaker 2: But we like the open mouth behavior for tea checks or.
Speaker 4: The voluntary presentation of the front leg for blood draws.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really speaks to how much our teams are
Speaker 3: doing behind the scenes and just how smart the pandas
Speaker 3: are to learn all of these new things and participate
Speaker 3: in their own care.
Speaker 4: Right moin intil the hint that indeed, And because we
Speaker 4: talked about Kids Free Month at the start of the episode,
Speaker 4: I wanted to add when people come to the zoo
Speaker 4: to see the pandas, you know you got some options,
Speaker 4: that's true, right, Yeah, I mean first and my personal favorite.
Speaker 4: Once you're in the zoo, just scan the QR code
Speaker 4: on the sign to get your time ticket. You can
Speaker 4: sign up for a specific time to get to see
Speaker 4: the pandas.
Speaker 5: At Panda Ridge.
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's also my favorite option.
Speaker 5: Honestly, Oh really, oh nice.
Speaker 4: You know the other option, Rick is to head down
Speaker 4: to Panda Ridge and get into the stand byline. You
Speaker 4: will have to wait in line, but it's an option
Speaker 4: for people, and sometimes people pick it and seems like
Speaker 4: it's something they want to do.
Speaker 1: Yep, exactly.
Speaker 3: And you know, Marco, we did mention too with the
Speaker 3: whole kids free thing and coming to see the pandas
Speaker 3: that Paul Gloween is happening at the Zoo, our family
Speaker 3: friendly Halloween themed weekends in October that tend to be
Speaker 3: more fun than freaky and scary.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're absolutely right, but you might also see some
Speaker 4: cool decorations like I don't know, like a giant spider
Speaker 4: or something.
Speaker 3: Well, that's true, and there is a real fear or
Speaker 3: phobe ga people have with regards to spiders.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to bring out my husband
Speaker 2: in this, but you know that's a definite fear for him.
Speaker 4: But but you know, you can sometimes get over a
Speaker 4: fear of something once you learn more about it.
Speaker 3: Ah, And that gives me an excellent idea for our
Speaker 3: next episode.
Speaker 2: Oh really like like spiders spiders?
Speaker 3: Be sure to subscribe and tune into our next episode,
Speaker 3: in which we learn more about.
Speaker 1: The amazing world of web spinning and rack nototes.
Speaker 2: Marco Wentz and.
Speaker 5: I'm Rich Schwartz.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3: For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San
Speaker 3: Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing
Speaker 3: Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are
Speaker 3: Nikia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are
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