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Speaker 4: All right, good Wednesday morning, and welcome to Counterpoints. Emily

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Speaker 4: is joining us from Waukesha County, Wisconsin, where Elon Musk

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Speaker 4: told us the fate of Western civilization was going to

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Speaker 4: be decided on Tuesday night. We're now in a post

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Speaker 4: Western civilization moment. I for one, am looking forward to it. Emily,

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Speaker 4: how's the mood in the post West environment?

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Speaker 5: Welcome to the future, Ryn, there are there's a lot

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Speaker 5: to talk about from the election results last night, just

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Speaker 5: here in Wisconsin. Interestingly enough, where you know to precinct yesterday,

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Speaker 5: turnout was really high. We'll get into why that didn't

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Speaker 5: make up the difference for Elon Musk and the right

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Speaker 5: here in Wisconsin, but also election results that are worth

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Speaker 5: talking about in Florida, in Louisiana. So we have all

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Speaker 5: kinds of good stuff to get through. At the top

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Speaker 5: of the Today's Show.

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Speaker 4: Ryan, Yeah, at four o'clock today, I guess the West

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Speaker 4: is going to try to make a comeback. Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: is going to announce massive tariffs. This is going to

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Speaker 4: be Liberation Day. I see a lot of people joking

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Speaker 4: that it's liberation from your four oh one k day.

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Speaker 4: We're going to talk to Barat rom Mardy, who was

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Speaker 4: the number two basically economic official to Biden administration.

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Speaker 1: He's going to talk. He's going to give us his take.

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Speaker 4: On Trump's tariffs and also his critique of this abundance

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Speaker 4: agenda that friend of the Show Ezra Cline, has introduced

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Speaker 4: to the United States, along with instantly like seven different

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Speaker 4: thing organized around this idea of an abundance agenda.

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Speaker 1: Luigi Manngion, alleged to have done.

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Speaker 4: Something wrong, is going to get the get death penalty

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Speaker 4: if Pam Bondy gets her way, we'll talk about that

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Speaker 4: the deportation scandal has broken through. Now to Joe Rogan,

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Speaker 4: we're going to play a clip of him asking, wait

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Speaker 4: a minute, why are we Are we sure we're supposed

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Speaker 4: to be sending like gay Barber's have nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with MS thirteen to Dungeons and El Salvador?

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Speaker 1: Is that really what we signed up for here?

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Speaker 4: I think it's interesting that this has kind of moved

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Speaker 4: beyond just the kind of inside the Beltwaigh conversation. Corey

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Speaker 4: Booker wrapped up his twenty five hour record breaking takathon

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Speaker 4: on the Senate floor, and Jefferson Morley and Oliver Stone

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Speaker 4: testified yesterday in front of a House panel on that

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Speaker 4: was looking into the new releases as it relates to

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Speaker 4: the j k assassination, and the Democrats embarrassed themselves to

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Speaker 4: a level that I did not think was even previously achievable,

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Speaker 4: And we'll place some of those clips.

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Speaker 1: Emily any quick thoughts.

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Speaker 5: Wasn't exactly a shining example of republican government from the

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Speaker 5: right either at that hearing, because of course there was

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Speaker 5: that moment.

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Speaker 6: If you haven't seen it yet, go.

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Speaker 5: Ahead and google it of Lauren Bobert confusing Oliver Stone

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Speaker 5: and Rogerstone, which is very beautiful.

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Speaker 4: Anything you know, that's a mistake that can happen. We'll

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Speaker 4: let that one slide. So a bunch of elections last night,

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Speaker 4: two critical ones in Florida where Republicans were defending, you know,

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Speaker 4: seats that Trump had carried by thirty plus points. This

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Speaker 4: is Matt Gates and also Mike Wallas, though both went

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Speaker 4: into the administration. Matt Gates never made it all the

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Speaker 4: way in, but decided he didn't want to take his

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Speaker 4: keep his Panhandle seats. So both of those held special elections.

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Speaker 4: But let's start in Wisconsin. We can This is Susan Crawford,

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Speaker 4: liberal judge wins in just a complete landslide, only just

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Speaker 4: only a few months after Donald Trump carried the state

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Speaker 4: of Wisconsin. Democrats look poised or liberals or whatever you

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Speaker 4: want to call them in this non partisan judial race

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Speaker 4: to win some by something like eleven points.

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Speaker 1: Here's Susan Crawford the winner.

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Speaker 7: Last night Today, Wisconsin nights spended off an unprecedented attack

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Speaker 7: on our democracy, our fair elections, and our Supreme Court.

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Speaker 7: And Wisconsin's stood up and said loudly that justice does

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Speaker 7: not have a price. Our courts are not for sale.

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Speaker 4: So Wisconsin voters are getting used to these supreme these

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Speaker 4: pivotal Supreme Court elections. With that victory, the liberals, the Democrats,

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Speaker 4: whatever you want to call them, will can the Supreme

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Speaker 4: Court going forward. We had significant lines at the polls. Emily,

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Speaker 4: we can roll this a one vo here, But Emily,

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Speaker 4: what did you see when it came to turnout an

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Speaker 4: enthusiasm in the state for this off year election.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I was out here in Waksha County yesterday and

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Speaker 5: turnout was you know, the poll workers were talking about

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Speaker 5: how high turnout was and you could see it. I mean,

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Speaker 5: it didn't really look like a spring Supreme Court election,

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Speaker 5: le will turnout, it wasn't quite presidential, but turnout turned

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Speaker 5: out to be very high as the information started coming in. Now,

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Speaker 5: there was a state Supreme Court race, which in Wisconsin,

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Speaker 5: by the way, isn't Republican versus Democrat.

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Speaker 6: It's conservative versus liberal.

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Speaker 5: And people sort of know that the parties are respectively involved,

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Speaker 5: but it's not technically partisan. So there was a race

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Speaker 5: back in twenty twenty three where it was also at

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Speaker 5: the time breaking spending records. Last night's election turned out

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Speaker 5: to be the actual most expensive judicial race in US history.

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Speaker 5: About one hundred million dollars poured into this. The conservative

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Speaker 5: candidate had a bit of a cash advantage.

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Speaker 6: They both were around.

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Speaker 5: I think the Susan Crawford who ended up winning was

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Speaker 5: around forty five million dollars and Brad Schimmel was somewhere

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Speaker 5: north of fifty million dollars. On the Crawford side, you

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Speaker 5: had Soros, Pritzker, and I think Reid Hoffman getting involved,

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Speaker 5: and then Musk, Dicky Line, some others were involved.

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Speaker 6: On the conservative side.

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Speaker 5: Musk tried to run his Pennsylvania Playbook because it worked

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Speaker 5: when Trump's name was at the top of the ballot,

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Speaker 5: and he gave out a couple million dollars to different voters,

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Speaker 5: pay people one hundred bucks for signing a petition against

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Speaker 5: activist judges. They put a lot into this race, where

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Speaker 5: the margin now is about ten points for Susan Crawford.

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Speaker 5: She wins, and that's similar to what the margin was

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Speaker 5: for the liberal candidate back in twenty three, which is

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Speaker 5: all very interesting because it tests a couple of things. One,

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Speaker 5: what happens in states like Wisconsin swing state in a

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Speaker 5: presidential election, but historically a blue state. What happens ken

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Speaker 5: Elon Musk sort of flip a switch, run the playbook

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Speaker 5: back every time they want to win a crucial election,

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Speaker 5: and it's worth x amount of dollars. At least as

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Speaker 5: of last night, the answer to that question is no,

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Speaker 5: if Trump's name is not on the ballot, what does

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Speaker 5: that do? My source, one of my sources has had

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Speaker 5: a really interesting reaction round last night, said that Republicans

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Speaker 5: slipped or conservative slipped in rural areas and quote, only

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Speaker 5: Trump himself truly brings out the working class. So I

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Speaker 5: think that's going to prove to be a really significant

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Speaker 5: challenge for Republicans, Republicans conservatives in states like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania particular,

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Speaker 5: going forward.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was reported Musk had spent seventeen million

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Speaker 4: dollars and that several days, with several days still left

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Speaker 4: to go in the elections, of the final total certainly

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Speaker 4: is going to be a lot more than that. And

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Speaker 4: then there were the famous you know, one hundred bucks

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Speaker 4: if you sign this petition and get other people to

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Speaker 4: just sign it, which is sometimes he was careful to

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Speaker 4: uh not break election bribery laws, other times he was

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Speaker 4: not at all careful, and now the Attorney General is

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Speaker 4: kind of looking into whether or not he was he's breaking.

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Speaker 1: The law there.

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Speaker 4: He also did a lottery where he gave out, you know,

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Speaker 4: I think two million, you know, million dollar checks to

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Speaker 4: two different people who participated in this thing.

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Speaker 1: And you're right, it wasn't it wasn't enough.

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Speaker 4: And so there is a there's a theory on the

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Speaker 4: left which I want to get your take on, because

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Speaker 4: I wonder if this is going to become something that

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Speaker 4: gets talked about in Trump's circles. The theory is is

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Speaker 4: a little bit crazy, but it's just just a theory,

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Speaker 4: and it's it's about it's not about an election being stolen,

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Speaker 4: but it's about what Trump thinks about twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 4: So there's a theory among some liberals who you know,

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Speaker 4: saw the anecdotes about Musk and Trump spending election night

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Speaker 4: together and Trump being just utterly mystified by Musk's uncanny

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Speaker 4: ability to know ahead of time exactly how the numbers

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Speaker 4: were going to come out in like Pennsylvania and Michigan,

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Speaker 4: and you know, Musk, very very early in the night

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Speaker 4: was like, this is done.

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Speaker 1: Here's why it's done. Here are the numbers that are

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Speaker 1: going to come in.

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Speaker 4: Now, he can easily, from my perspective, have a program

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Speaker 4: that analyzes turnout in different key precincts, compare it to

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty, and then run a projection and just analyze it.

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Speaker 4: This basically the same way that The New York Times does,

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Speaker 4: but a little bit more sophisticated, Like I don't think

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Speaker 4: it requires him to have any inside information or to

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Speaker 4: be inside like the vote counting machines. The theory on

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Speaker 4: the left is that Trump doesn't understand that and thinks

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Speaker 4: that Musk had something going in Pennsylvania, and that that

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Speaker 4: has something to do with the deference that he has

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Speaker 4: been giving to Musk, which requires some extraordinary explanation, like

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Speaker 4: just because it's so kind of obviously not great for

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Speaker 4: him necessarily to be co presidenting with this deeply unpopular guy.

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Speaker 4: So they think it has something to do with that.

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Speaker 4: They're like that musk knew something, did something. Now, that

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean he did. It just means that Trump might wonder.

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Speaker 1: If he did.

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Speaker 4: Now watching elon Musk face plan, like if it was

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Speaker 4: true that Trump thought Musk had some magic up his sleeve, Well,

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Speaker 4: there was no rabbit in the hat in Wisconsin. So

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Speaker 4: I wonder if this is going to cool things between

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Speaker 4: Musk and Trump and between Musk and the Republican Party.

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Speaker 5: It's a really interesting question because I think one of

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Speaker 5: the reasons Elon Musk started pouring millions into this race,

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Speaker 5: not that you know, fifteen million is is that much

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Speaker 5: to him, but roughly fifteen million is that much to him.

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Speaker 5: But I think one of the reasons he started pouring

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Speaker 5: money into it is in order to prove a point

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Speaker 5: that he could be a net like he's an asset

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Speaker 5: to the Trump administration and to the MAGA movement. Even

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Speaker 5: as Doge starts slipping in the polls, Musk himself has

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Speaker 5: approval or favorability rating that starts slipping in the polls.

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Speaker 5: Then you're able to go into Wisconsin, flip the switch

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Speaker 5: with the money, with the pack, with the rallies, with

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Speaker 5: the get out the vote operation that maybe looks like

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Speaker 5: Pennsylvania twenty twenty four, and all of a sudden, you

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Speaker 5: give Trump more and more incentive to never ditch you.

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Speaker 5: I think there's probably part of that. I mean, there's

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Speaker 5: the Tesla case, but I don't think Elon Musk really

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Speaker 5: that's pending or could be pending before the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

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Speaker 5: I don't think that matters too much to Elon Musk,

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Speaker 5: to be honest, I don't think that's the business that

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Speaker 5: they would get out of opening Tesla dealerships in Wisconsin.

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Speaker 5: I don't think is going to dramatically change Elon Musk's

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Speaker 5: net worth.

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Speaker 4: But I think it would be a hilarious move to

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Speaker 4: try to take over the country just to open up

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Speaker 4: more Tesla dealerships in Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: I'd be amazing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that would be something. But yeah, I mean

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Speaker 5: here in this is where it was also really interesting.

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Speaker 5: So like here in conservative, relatively suburban counties, they were

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Speaker 5: feeling Republicans Conservatives were feeling really good yesterday because of

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Speaker 5: the high turnout. They had the sense that maybe Elon

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Speaker 5: Musk had actually done something very very impressive with the

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Speaker 5: petitions against quote unquote activist judges. And you know that

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Speaker 5: actually high turnout had conservatives feeling good. But as David

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Speaker 5: Shore recently posited, when you look at the twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: four election results, if those low propensity voters had turned

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Speaker 5: out in higher numbers, if there had been higher turnout

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Speaker 5: in the presidential election, Trump would have won by more.

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Speaker 5: And here in Wisconsin, if there had been higher turnout

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Speaker 5: that was on the level of a presidential which you're

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Speaker 5: never going to get for Supreme Court race, you could

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Speaker 5: end up with Republicans narrowing the gap, Conservatives narrowing the gap.

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Speaker 5: Right now, it's ten points. You know, it's not to

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Speaker 5: say Wisconsin is, you know, the same thing as Massachusetts.

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Speaker 5: For example, voter ID passed by sixty two percent and

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Speaker 5: about actually about sixty three percent. That's a higher margin

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Speaker 5: than Susan Crawford, interestingly enough, so you know it just

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Speaker 5: I think your point is a really interesting one that

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Speaker 5: there was this idea Elon Musk himself could be a

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Speaker 5: singular force, almost like Trump, who can go into these

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Speaker 5: states and flip the switch. And if Trump thinks that's

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Speaker 5: the case, or if Elon Musk believed that was essential

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Speaker 5: to Trump's view of him, then they're going to need

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Speaker 5: to put a whole lot more work into it because

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Speaker 5: it did not go their way here in Wisconsin. By again,

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Speaker 5: they didn't change the margin from twenty twenty three. Maybe

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Speaker 5: narrowed it a little bit when all of a sudden done,

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Speaker 5: but ten points, so not much changed, even though there

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Speaker 5: was higher turnout.

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Speaker 6: It just it wasn't enough.

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Speaker 4: And for many decades, Democrats have been the party of

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Speaker 4: working class voters, and working class voters are less likely

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Speaker 4: to have their IDs just as a as a percentage,

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Speaker 4: and you know, small percentages can change. You know, if

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Speaker 4: you're a college educated mom in the suburbs, you've got

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Speaker 4: your ducks in a row.

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Speaker 1: If you're not, you're less likely to.

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Speaker 4: And so for many years Democrats defended the ability of anybody. Hey,

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Speaker 4: here's your address, show you tilly bill, whatever, just sign

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Speaker 4: your name.

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Speaker 1: If you're registered, you can vote. Now.

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Speaker 4: It's taken Republicans so long to start winning on voter

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Speaker 4: ID it's going to end up perhaps hurting their voters more.

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Speaker 1: As you said with me, the David Shore analysis that.

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Speaker 4: If you have voter suppression of any degree across the board,

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Speaker 4: you're more likely to suppress working class voters.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, that's just an interesting kind of irony there, and

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Speaker 4: I think it's also why you're finally seeing Democrats kind

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Speaker 4: of roll over on voter ID like, Okay, you know what,

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Speaker 4: our voters all have ID now, so fine.

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Speaker 1: We'll go ahead and do it.

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Speaker 4: And that's the thing you have to remember parties are

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Speaker 4: amoral vehicles for power, Like they don't have any principles

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Speaker 4: on anything. The only principle is they want to win,

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Speaker 4: and so they don't have a principle on what the

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Speaker 4: actual you know, identification you need. Trump said the way

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Speaker 4: that he wrote his executive order recently around around election reform,

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Speaker 4: So if there was a way to read it that

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Speaker 4: would say you could only vote if you had a passport,

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Speaker 4: I think that was poorly written and I don't think that's.

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Speaker 1: Going to hold up.

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Speaker 4: But if that were of the law put into place,

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Speaker 4: Democrats would win in a landslide, probably, Like Democrats are

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Speaker 4: more likely probably to have valid passports than Republicans at

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Speaker 4: this point, which is which is a shocking testament to

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Speaker 4: the realignment of the parties that the Democrats have more

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Speaker 4: upper class, upper middle class voters than in the past.

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Speaker 4: Speaking of working last district, there are two in Florida,

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Speaker 4: so let's let's let's move there. The net you put

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Speaker 4: up a four Randy fine deeply unpopular, apparently local local

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Speaker 4: election official. Seems like even Republicans don't really like the guy.

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Speaker 4: He ended up winning by ten points against Josh Wheel

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Speaker 4: in a race that you know went you know, thirty

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Speaker 4: plus for Trump. So this ended up, you know, it

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Speaker 4: ended up being close ish, but it's not like you know,

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Speaker 4: and Democrats spent what tens of millions of dollars on

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Speaker 4: this seat, Like enormous amounts of money were raised and

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Speaker 4: spent to try to make this a competitive race. And

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Speaker 4: it's much closer than Republicans would like to see. And

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Speaker 4: I know that there were some Republicans in Washington who

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Speaker 4: were actually hoping for a close race so that it

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Speaker 4: would be like a brushback pitch to Musk.

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Speaker 1: They wanted a close race, but not but they didn't

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Speaker 1: want to lose it.

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Speaker 4: I don't think we have an element for this, but

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Speaker 4: in the Panhandle and Matt Gates's seat, the Democrats actually

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Speaker 4: overperformed the other Florida special election, still lost because it

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Speaker 4: was such such a massively Republican district. And one of

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Speaker 4: the theories I saw kicking around last night curious for

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Speaker 4: a take on this, is that Democrats should just not

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Speaker 4: even do any do any like advertising during the special election,

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Speaker 4: because if you're a Democrat in an off year, like

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Speaker 4: you're locked in, like you're googling and finding when the

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Speaker 4: races are, who's running and you know, making sure you're

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Speaker 4: ready to vote, and you're going out and you're going

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Speaker 4: from the Tesla protest right to the right to the

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Speaker 4: ballot and making sure you making sure you cast it.

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Speaker 4: And the more salience you increase, the more likely as

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Speaker 4: Republicans are going to learn about it and come out

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Speaker 4: of vote. Now, this doesn't bode well for four years

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Speaker 4: from now, but it does bode well for Democrats for

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Speaker 4: a midterm. So what do you make of this massive

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Speaker 4: Democratic overperformance in Florida, which is which is lining up

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Speaker 4: with their overperformance in special elections not just in Wisconsin

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Speaker 4: but around around the country.

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Speaker 1: And while you're talking, you can put up a five.

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Speaker 4: Over the weekend in Louisiana, they were the right put

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Speaker 4: up four constitutional amendments and all four of them were

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Speaker 4: beaten back.

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Speaker 6: And there was a Pennsylvania race that was what now,

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Speaker 6: two weeks.

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Speaker 4: Ago, two weeks an Amish country in Lancaster, the Democrat

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Speaker 4: actually won in an area that is definitely not Democratic country.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I'm looking at this posts by Matthew

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Speaker 5: Klein right now Political Report, and he suggested last night

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Speaker 5: one reason that Florida's first district might end up relatively

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Speaker 5: better for Democrats than Florida's six, despite getting no money

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Speaker 5: and attention. He says education Florida one has a bachelor's

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Speaker 5: degree attainment of thirty three point three percent. In Florida six,

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Speaker 5: it's twenty seven point one percent. More college education equals

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Speaker 5: more politically engaged and also more democratic. So I think

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Speaker 5: what we're seeing in some of these early results is

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Speaker 5: just that new reality be underscored. And actually it makes

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Speaker 5: the point that you were just making about voter idea

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Speaker 5: as well.

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Speaker 6: But that's like a very very.

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Speaker 5: Interesting shift for Republicans to start dealing with in some

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Speaker 5: of these different places. And it looks like, I mean,

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Speaker 5: some of this really does look like twenty seventeen, some

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Speaker 5: of those races we were watching back then early to

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Speaker 5: see what would happen in the twenty eighteen midterms that

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Speaker 5: went well for Democrats. So I'm hesitant to read too

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Speaker 5: much into this being like a specific rebuke of Doge

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Speaker 5: and Elon Musk, but it was a failure, at least

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Speaker 5: in Wisconsin. It was absolutely a failure for Elon Musk,

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Speaker 5: particularly because he was like a personality that almost injected

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Speaker 5: himself onto the palate. So I think it's a reference

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Speaker 5: on Trump. I think it shows that you're similarly. Democratic

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Speaker 5: voters are very energized, the Democratic base is very energized.

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Speaker 5: I just I guess I just don't think that's totally

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Speaker 5: different than where things were also in twenty seventeen. Right now,

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Speaker 5: So you know, I think Musk has a lot to

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Speaker 5: prove for Trump. And I'm not saying that he's like

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Speaker 5: a super popular figure, just that some of this is

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Speaker 5: there's still a lot of hostility to Trump in America.

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Speaker 5: There's still a lot of hostility to Maga Republicanism and

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Speaker 5: to the agenda. And I'm sure the tariff and market

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Speaker 5: volatility aren't helping with that. But I think it's more

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Speaker 5: like culture, the sort of culture war quote unquote resistance

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Speaker 5: that a lot of Democrats were mustering back in twenty

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Speaker 5: seventeen around the Russian investigation. Now, I think Doge and

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Speaker 5: Musk are the mobilizing Maybe baits is the right way

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Speaker 5: to put it, like that's what's getting people into the streets.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's move on to the tariffs. Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: at four pm today will announce Liberation Day. So we're

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Speaker 4: going to have Barat Romamurti to talk about that. Our

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Speaker 4: today is l day, Liberation Day here in the United States.

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Speaker 4: Liberation from what remains slightly unclear. This Fox News clip

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Speaker 4: suggests that you might need to liberate yourself from your

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Speaker 4: attachment to your four oh one k Let's roll this.

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Speaker 8: And those four oh one k people who are depending,

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Speaker 8: those retirees, all of that, just talking plane speak with them. Look,

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Speaker 8: when this nation used to go to war, people in

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Speaker 8: this country would support the war effort with their materials

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Speaker 8: at home and making things for weaponry and all of that.

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Speaker 8: We got to do one hundred percent buy in over

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Speaker 8: this bumpy period.

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Speaker 1: Just communicate. You can put up B two.

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump will be speaking precisely at four pm from

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Speaker 4: the Rose Garden, which is the moment that the bell

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Speaker 4: will be ringing the New York Stock Exchange. He knows that, uh,

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Speaker 4: he chose that for a reason. He's gonna sit back

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Speaker 4: and watch the chaos all day as uh And even

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Speaker 4: if you don't have money in there, it's kind of

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Speaker 4: gonna be.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be. It's gonna be a ride, that's for sure.

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Speaker 4: So uh So to talk about this, we're joined by

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Speaker 4: barat Ram Murty, who was the uh deputy director of

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Speaker 4: the nee C at the at the Biden administration, and

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Speaker 4: and I think from the left as as good a

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Speaker 4: person as we could get to be sympathetic to the

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Speaker 4: broad idea behind tariffs and behind rebuilding America's manufacturing class.

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Speaker 4: There was a strong faction you know, there's a strong

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Speaker 4: faction in the Democratic Party within the Bide administration that uh,

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Speaker 4: that aligns with that, that that broad idea like that. Yes, uh,

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Speaker 4: neoliberalism was awful. It hollowed out our country. We need

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Speaker 4: to we need to be able to build things again.

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Speaker 4: Uh So from a sympathetic perspective, when we get your

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Speaker 4: take on where on where you see this going? And

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Speaker 4: so the question that the genuine question I have, like

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Speaker 4: because I don't know the answer to it, is on

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Speaker 4: the one hand, you've got what Robert Leitheiser, who is

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Speaker 4: pretty well respected kind of trade policy maker, who was

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Speaker 4: the USTR rep for Trump in the first termament is

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Speaker 4: still his seems to be his senior advisor on this question.

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Speaker 4: Democrats have always said to me, Leitheiser, this guy knows

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Speaker 4: what he's doing and he has the best interest of

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Speaker 4: American workers in manufacturing at heart. On the other hand,

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Speaker 4: you have Trump who seems to think that tariffs are

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Speaker 4: just a way to rake in a whole lot of

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Speaker 4: money for the treasury at no cost to anybody. And

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Speaker 4: so and it seems unclear where this is going, Like

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Speaker 4: so from people in this policy world, where do you

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Speaker 4: where do you see this going?

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Speaker 1: Like, what's what's going on here? Who's in control? Is

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Speaker 1: it Lightheiser? Is it Trump's kind of amalpination of what

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Speaker 1: it is?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, go ahead, Emily Frank can just jump into say

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Speaker 5: it's actually a big deal that Trump did not bring

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Speaker 5: Bob Laiteizer back into this administration.

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Speaker 6: He has Navarro around him, but reportedly a.

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Speaker 1: Lot of this sort of advising or no he's not.

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Speaker 5: He's he's not formally in the administration, And it's kind

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Speaker 5: of a sore spot for the like tariff the protectionists

438
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 5: on the quote unquote new right, because he was seen

439
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 5: as somebody who could potentially be even in a Commerce

440
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 5: or Treasury secretary role and who wasn't.

441
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 6: But speaking of.

442
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 5: Commerce secretary, reportedly Howard Lutnik is driving a lot of

443
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 5: Trump's very particular strategy here, which is interesting.

444
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: So anyway, sorry, no, thank you, that's very very helpful.

445
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 4: Like I still see Lightheiser a lot commenting on this

446
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 4: and like.

447
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that, but that's a very good amendment. Yes

448
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: he's not, like in the room.

449
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, first of all, happy Liberation date.

450
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: Happy Liberation Day. Celebrate.

451
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:57,239
Speaker 10: So look, you're right. I think that there is a

452
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 10: strategic case. Both a national security and ECONO make a

453
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 10: security case for tariffs, but you have to use them

454
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 10: in a certain kind of way for them to make sense.

455
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 10: So the entire theory of how tariffs work, right, is

456
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 10: that it's a tax on imports.

457
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 9: It's a way to think about it.

458
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 10: And so by driving up the cost of importing goods

459
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,719
Speaker 10: into the United States, it encourages investors and other businesses

460
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 10: in the United States to look for domestic options instead.

461
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 9: That's the basic theory.

462
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 10: Right, because those will be relatively cheaper to what's coming in.

463
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 10: But if the goal of all of this is to

464
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 10: revive certain domestic industries, which is a goal that I support,

465
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 10: Let's say you want to build more washing machines in

466
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 10: the United States, and the problem is that you can

467
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 10: import really cheap washing machines from abroad right now, and

468
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 10: nobody's going to build them here because of that. Think

469
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 10: about this from the perspective of an investor right who's saying,

470
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 10: you know what, I have a bunch of money. Should

471
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 10: I put it into making it a washing machine manufacturing

472
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 10: or should I put it into this other goal or

473
00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 10: this other.

474
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 9: Goal, well, washing machine manufat.

475
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 10: Actually maybe there's an opportunity now because the tariff means

476
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 10: that the important good has been more expensive. That has

477
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 10: to be in place for years in years for that

478
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 10: and with certainty for that investor to make a decision

479
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 10: that this is a good use of my money. And

480
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 10: the problem with the Trump tariffs is that they're completely

481
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 10: unstrategic and there's no plan for how long they're going

482
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 10: to be in place and what the triggers are for

483
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 10: having them go up or go down or anything like that.

484
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 10: So it doesn't provide any certainty to any investor in

485
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 10: the United States about what to do. I mean, there

486
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 10: have been instances where Trump says on one day, I'm

487
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 10: imposing a twenty percent tariff on everything from Canada, and

488
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 10: then two days later is saying, actually, the Canada tariffs

489
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 10: are off because I had a good conversation with the

490
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 10: Prime minister, or because they decided to do something on

491
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 10: Fentanel completely unrelated to the goal of economic revitalization in

492
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 10: the United States. So it's not going to have the

493
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 10: intended impact because there's no discipline, there's no certainty, and

494
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 10: there's none of the other supports that you would need

495
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 10: to actually revive domestic industry in the United States.

496
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 5: I want to ask about first in the Senate, we

497
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,959
Speaker 5: can go through some of these next elements. We can

498
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 5: start with B three. This is Donald Trump going after

499
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 5: Tim Kaine, who has sought to perhaps put legislation together

500
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 5: that would undermine the Canada tariffs.

501
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 6: And obviously, if people are familiar with the.

502
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 5: History of tariffs, that is very much an Article one power.

503
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 6: So kind of sympathetic to this myself.

504
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 5: But Lisa Murkowski, we can put B four up on

505
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 5: the screen, has said indicated that she's sympathetic to this.

506
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 5: She says, QUO, I'm looking at my state's interests and

507
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 5: it seems to me that his resolution makes sense about

508
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 5: the Kane resolution. And then finally, if we put B

509
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 5: five up on the screen. Donald Trump has been unloading

510
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 5: on Republicans like Rand Paul, Lisa Murkowski, on True Social

511
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 5: as well, who have indicated they are not on board

512
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 5: with the particular the particulars of the Canada tariff agenda.

513
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 5: I'm sure Rand Paul is somebody who very much believes

514
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 5: that this is a congressional responsibility and is opposed a

515
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 5: tariffs period. So what do you make of the pushback

516
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 5: here on the Canada tariffs in particular, because it seems

517
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 5: it's it's easy to push back on the tactic as

518
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 5: you just kind of laid out why, the unpredictability maybe

519
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 5: undermining it.

520
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 6: But if you were looking at Canada.

521
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 5: Tariffs, would you suggest any sort of walls that should

522
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 5: be built around industry with Canada at all? Because most

523
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 5: of the left are saying now Canada is an ally

524
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 5: leave Canada alone. I think from a sort of war

525
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 5: and Usk position, there's a decent argument for some targeted

526
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 5: tariffs here.

527
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, again, there are two interesting things.

528
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 10: Number one they're talking about and across the board tariff

529
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 10: right on every single thing. And you know, if there's

530
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 10: a case to be made on dairy, you know Canada

531
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 10: imposes a tariff on US dairy that's exported to Canada.

532
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 10: Maybe we need to put something on our imports from

533
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 10: Canada to try to let the playing field there.

534
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 9: There's always interesting.

535
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 10: Contain right now a big issue, right you know, is

536
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,479
Speaker 10: there something about autos and auto parts? Those are sector

537
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 10: bi sector, and you would want to figure out what

538
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 10: is a nuanced tariff that makes sense given what the

539
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 10: tariff is that the other country is imposing and the

540
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 10: relative cost of the goods and across the twenty percent

541
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 10: across the board twenty percent tariff or by definition, is unstrategic.

542
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 10: It's not based on protecting specific sectors. It's not about

543
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 10: evening out the playing field on specific products that are

544
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 10: subject to a higher tariff. The other important thing in

545
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 10: that is that the entire basis for the tariffs that

546
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 10: Trump is laying out is fentanyl. It's not about protecting

547
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 10: domestic industry, growing dairy production in the United States, making

548
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 10: sure that domestically sourced autoparts are being used instead of

549
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 10: autoparts from Canada. It's about apparently, fentanyl coming across the border.

550
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 10: So again, if you're a domestic producer and saying, should

551
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 10: I put more money into dairy or into domestic auto

552
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 10: parts if the bas for the tariff is fentanyl coming

553
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 10: across the border, and a week later, Trump says, guess what,

554
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 10: They've come reached an agreement with me on fentanyl because

555
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 10: they put more Mounties at the border. Then what are

556
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 10: you going to do? You know that you haven't that

557
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 10: you haven't achieved the economic goal of doing that. So

558
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 10: that's the thing. Hour by hour, and I'm not exaggerating, literally,

559
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 10: hour by hour, the size of the tariff changes, the

560
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 10: rationale for the tariff changes, the explanation for what it

561
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 10: would take to remove the tariff changes, and there's just

562
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 10: no way that any economic actor can respond to those

563
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 10: tariffs by trying to make the investments that are necessary

564
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 10: to actually revitalize American manufacturing and production.

565
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 4: And now the Biden administration left some of Trump's China

566
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 4: tariffs in place. Why was that and why were those

567
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 4: tariffs worth worth leaving?

568
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 10: I mean, look, there are one of the key purposes

569
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 10: of tariffs is to correct a trade imbalance. And if

570
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 10: you look at what China is doing, obviously they have

571
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 10: much much lower labor and environmental state in China, they

572
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 10: can manufacture things much more cheaply because they pay people

573
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 10: two dollars a day and they don't care how much

574
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 10: pollution they put into the water into the air. The

575
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 10: other thing is that they have enormous state subsidies. Right

576
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 10: in many cases, state run companies but other ones that

577
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 10: are getting huge amounts of money from the government, which

578
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 10: again makes it much easier for them to produce things

579
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 10: at lower cost and then what's called dump them into

580
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 10: other foreign countries at very low cost to start dominating

581
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 10: those markets. In the case of the China tariffs, who

582
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 10: want to say there are certain things that we think

583
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 10: are important to have in the United States, steel production,

584
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 10: aluminum production. If we have a tariffy in China that

585
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 10: says imports of those particular products are going to be

586
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 10: a little bit more expensive so that we can protect

587
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 10: domestic production, that makes both economic sense and national security

588
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 10: sense from my perspective.

589
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 9: So yeah, it made sense to keep those in place.

590
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 11: Though.

591
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 10: You know, we did an intensive review of every single

592
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 10: tariff in twenty twenty one twenty twenty two when inflation

593
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 10: was quite high, and said do all of these make

594
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 10: sense or not? And we decided that a lot of

595
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 10: them made sense and protected important interests. But remember that

596
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 10: was on something like zero point eight percent in imports

597
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 10: from China those tariffs. Trump is talking about one hundred

598
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 10: percent of imports from China, from the EU, from Canada,

599
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 10: from Mexico. Those are our largest trading partners and so

600
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 10: basically it's just a guarantee that costs you're going to

601
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 10: go up. But I mean, one way to think about

602
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 10: it is that it's basically a sales tax on every

603
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 10: single good that is important in the United States.

604
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 5: Leaving those tariffs in place mean that they have now

605
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 5: been in place for almost I mean, we're coming up

606
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 5: on a decade, not quite a decade, but we're coming

607
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 5: up on a decade the China tariffs. And I'm curious

608
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 5: because I've seen some libertarian or I should maybe just

609
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 5: say like anti protectionist economists, which is just saying economist basically, Yeah,

610
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 5: push back and say, well, the China tariffs haven't worked.

611
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 5: There's your case study. China tariffs have been in place

612
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 5: for a long time. There hasn't been significant protection of

613
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 5: American industry. It hasn't you know, revitalized American manufacturing. And

614
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 5: so what's your response to that. Are the China tariffs,

615
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 5: you know, proof of concept or proof of concept in

616
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 5: the other direction against the I guess efforts of the

617
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 5: ambitions of the terrors.

618
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 9: Yeah.

619
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 10: The thing about tariffs, and honestly with all policy making,

620
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 10: is that you have to compare it against a world

621
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 10: in which they didn't exist, and it's hard to know

622
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 10: exactly what that world looks like. So for those who

623
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 10: say things haven't gotten haven't improved as much as you

624
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 10: would have liked, my question to them is what would

625
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 10: things look like if we hadn't had them in place?

626
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 9: How bad would things have gotten without those in place?

627
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 10: And so, you know, the folks at the White House

628
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 10: and the US Trade Representative and others who were most

629
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 10: involved in all of this, they did a very careful

630
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 10: review and determined that it was worth it overall to

631
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 10: keep them in place because again, they were on a

632
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 10: relatively small portion of goods and they're directly related to

633
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 10: Chinese activities that they felt like were basically unfair trade practices. So,

634
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 10: you know, I think that there's a strong case for

635
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 10: keeping them. I think that there are more opportunities again

636
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 10: if Trump had come out and said I want to

637
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 10: really focus this on China, which is engaged in all

638
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 10: sorts of unfair trade practices that's hurting US manufacturing. And

639
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 10: there's one really good example of that, by the way,

640
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 10: there's something called the Deminimus exception, which is basically something

641
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 10: that allows China to bring goods into to export goods

642
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 10: into the United States that are below a certain dollar value,

643
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 10: and those things are not subject to any tariff, and

644
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 10: they're not subject to any customs inspection. And you know,

645
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 10: all the TMU and all that stuff that comes into US,

646
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 10: the cheap goods comes in through that exception. And it's

647
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 10: a way that a lot of fentanyl comes into the

648
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 10: United States.

649
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 9: Noubt right, right.

650
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 10: Trump initially said I'm going to do something about this,

651
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 10: I'm going to close the difference, and then he pulled

652
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 10: it back. You know, one thing that actually would have

653
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 10: made a lot of sense. If you care about fentanyl,

654
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 10: if you care about US domestic production, if you care

655
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 10: about protecting US consumers, all of that would have made sense.

656
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 9: But it's the one thing that he hasn't done when

657
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 9: it comes to tariffs.

658
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:02,439
Speaker 1: Do you know why?

659
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 9: I have no idea?

660
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 12: Like was it?

661
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 4: I mean I know that right after he did it,

662
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 4: you started having people complain that, like other the thing

663
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 4: that they had ordered, like wasn't showing up fast enough?

664
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: Yeah?

665
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 9: Could it?

666
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: Was it really that quickly that he felt the pressure?

667
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: You think or I don't know?

668
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 9: It looks yeah. The thing about.

669
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: Trump, well, Bezos would have loved it.

670
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 4: It's because it's protectionism for Amazon, well, well they bring

671
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 4: a lot of crap Inso you know, the thing is

672
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 4: with Trump, and again there's a case for tariffs if

673
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 4: it is done in a thoughtful, discipline, long term perspective

674
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 4: kind of way.

675
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 10: And all of those things are the opposite of Trump

676
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 10: right in terms of he'll have a good conversation with

677
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 10: a world leader and totally change his policy towards that person.

678
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 10: You know, some event will happen, and you know they'll

679
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 10: they'll capture somethentyl coming across the border and say this

680
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 10: is an example of what I'm talking about.

681
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 9: The tariffs are going to go up. Right.

682
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 10: There's no predictability, and I know that sounds boring, but

683
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 10: that's really important if you're trying to make business decisions

684
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 10: and make investment decisions over a long term horizon.

685
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 4: The counter argument on China would be that it was

686
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 4: true for many years that they were, you know, the

687
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 4: source of like all cheap labor, et cetera. But now

688
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 4: they're so automated and their factories are so efficient that

689
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 4: you know, if you want cheap labor, you're going maybe

690
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 4: to like Vietnam or somewhere else whereas China now is

691
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 4: competing because they've invested so much, you know, with our

692
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 4: trade imbalance into their manufacturing capacity. There was this crazy

693
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 4: video going around of US production of one hundred and

694
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 4: fifty five millimeter shells and Chinese production of one hundred

695
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 4: and fifty five millionaire shows the Chinese one just whipping

696
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 4: through with these robots, and in the US it's dudes

697
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 4: with the goggles and the spray paint and the gloves

698
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 4: just and it's like, WHOA, if these countries ever go

699
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 4: to war, I don't have much of doubt which one

700
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 4: is going to be able to produce more shells long term.

701
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 4: So how much of how true is it still of

702
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 4: China that it's really a labor question?

703
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, you're right, a lot of the quote unquote low

704
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 10: skill manufacturing has migrated to Southeast Asia in particular.

705
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 9: But it gets to a point about.

706
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: Those Chinese companies often though, right.

707
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 10: Yes, what kind of manufacturing do we want in the

708
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 10: United States? Is it important that we literally make every

709
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 10: kind of product here for either strategic economic or national

710
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 10: security purposes? Or is it the case that we both

711
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 10: because they're good jobs and because they're important, we want

712
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 10: to really focus on high end you know, sophisticated manufacturing, right,

713
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 10: And I think our argument would be, we really got

714
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 10: to make sure that we're doing that stuff or we

715
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 10: have the capacity to do that stuff in the United States.

716
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 10: And if you look at one of the big things

717
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 10: that we did in the BUYD administration was was the

718
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 10: Chips Act, Right. We invested a lot of money and

719
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 10: having domestic production of chips. You know, mycroprocessors that go

720
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 10: into almost everything these days, cars, appliances, a lot of

721
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 10: electronic products, and we saw during the pandemic that the

722
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 10: lack of access to those because a lot of the

723
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 10: foreign factories shut down, meant that our domestic car manufacturers

724
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 10: couldn't make new cars because these cars have dozens and

725
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 10: dozens of these ships in them. And what happened to

726
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 10: the price of cars? They went up because supply had

727
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 10: gone down. We all remember how expensive both new cars

728
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 10: and use cars were in twenty twenty one and twenty

729
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 10: twenty two. So we made a decision it's important to

730
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 10: have that production in the United States. We put a

731
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 10: lot of money into it, and now we have TSMC,

732
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 10: the world's biggest chip maker, opening a fab in Arizona.

733
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 10: Micron's doing a big thing in Idaho. So we've seen

734
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 10: that those kinds of efforts can result in improved manufacturing

735
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 10: in the United States, but it has to be a dedicated,

736
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 10: long term effort.

737
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 9: You can't.

738
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 10: It's not just doing the tariffs, it's also supporting it

739
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 10: with public funds.

740
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 4: Any response to that, Emily, I know that right kind

741
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 4: of now hates the Chips Act, Is that right?

742
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 5: I mean, well, yeah, I think a lot of people

743
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 5: read see the Chips Acts as something that has ultimately

744
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 5: been vindicated because they're China hawks and know how important

745
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 5: it is to entre some of that. But I know

746
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 5: we're going to get into this and the abundance discussion.

747
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 5: But my response to that would be, there were some

748
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 5: examples of hurdles that Democrats added to the Chips Act

749
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 5: that companies push back on that were sort of at

750
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 5: the time DEI related and added costs and steps that

751
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 5: you know, were making the process inefficient for them on

752
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 5: showing some of that tech.

753
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 6: I don't know if you have a response to that,

754
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 6: but I think and.

755
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 4: I would add to that a bunch of buybacks that

756
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 4: the companies did, Like the companies would get the subsidies

757
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 4: and then quickly like just basically funnel the money directly

758
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 4: to shareholders.

759
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: How do you balance those two criticisms?

760
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, I would say there're were a lot of

761
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 10: criticisms when the rules for this Chips program were announced,

762
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 10: because it said, for example, you got to pay workers

763
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 10: a certain amount of money and provide certain types of

764
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 10: labor protections. The big one that attracted a lot of

765
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 10: attention was if you're gonna get this money, you have

766
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 10: to provide some kind of affordable childcare for the people

767
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 10: who work there. And actually Ezra Kline wrote a whole

768
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 10: piece in The New York Times called the problem with

769
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 10: everything bagel liberalism right, put everything on the bagel, and

770
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 10: it slows things down, and this was his example.

771
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 9: At the federal level.

772
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 10: Well, all of that, I think has been proven to

773
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 10: be misplaced, because all of the money in that program

774
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 10: has gone out the door. All of the major companies

775
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 10: that we wanted to be building in the United States

776
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 10: met the requirements and have started building. As I mentioned,

777
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 10: TSMC and Micron and Intel are all taking money and

778
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 10: building stuff in Columbus and in Arizona and an upstate

779
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 10: in New York and so on.

780
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 9: And they met the requirements.

781
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 10: It didn't turn out to be that hard for them

782
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 10: to say, oh, you know what, we'll have a care

783
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 10: center at our factory so that we can.

784
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 9: Actually have a diverse workforce.

785
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 10: So I actually think that that's in a good example

786
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 10: of how this abundance critique has been off the mark,

787
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 10: because when we when push came to shove, the attraction

788
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 10: of the federal dollars was enough that they were able

789
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 10: to meet the requirements. And look, I wish that we

790
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 10: had put stronger buyback protections in there. That was a

791
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 10: big negotiation during Build the Republicans. You know, we don't

792
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 10: want to tell.

793
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: How our friends Mansion and Cinema were friendly on that.

794
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, the Republicans, to her credit, I think Secretary of

795
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 10: Commerce Raymondo, who was responsible for administering the program, tried

796
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 10: to get some of that into the rules, you know,

797
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 10: not the actual statute, but the rules for the program.

798
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 10: It probably wasn't as effective as getting it a law

799
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 10: that said if you take this money, no buybacks for

800
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 10: five years period, but then take the money.

801
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 9: Yeah, but you know that's the thing.

802
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: We're not here to build things.

803
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 4: We are here to just take money and gred it

804
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 4: to our sharehold But look, you misunderstand the nature of

805
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 4: our project.

806
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 10: I think that that is, you know, go to mush

807
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 10: this together with the abundance debate. There's I get frustrated

808
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 10: a lot about the various inefficiencies in these types of projects, right.

809
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: And you know.

810
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 10: What what one person will call, you know, uh produce

811
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 10: that you know, providing support for an important domestic industry

812
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 10: is another person's corporate welfare.

813
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: Right.

814
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 10: And I hate the fact that basically some percentage of

815
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 10: these public dollars are going to be wasted in the

816
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 10: forum of you know, going into buybacks or higher executive compensation.

817
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 9: We should be doing.

818
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 10: I think it is up to us to do our

819
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 10: very very best to make sure that every single dollar

820
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 10: is spent as efficiently as possible. And I think that

821
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 10: means fighting against some of the process, you know, a

822
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 10: completely extraneous requirements that come in. It also means fighting

823
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 10: against corporate interests who want to use this money in

824
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 10: ways that aren't compatible with the public interest.

825
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 9: It requires doing both.

826
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 10: And I you know, this whole debate that has emerged

827
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 10: about abundance, it seems to be kind of like a

828
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 10: false choice, right, But yes, we all we should try

829
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 10: to pair down these steps and these requirements to really

830
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 10: do the things that we want to focus on. But yes,

831
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 10: we should also make sure that we're we have an

832
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 10: understanding of corporate power and how they seek to distort

833
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 10: these processes and how they seek to take public dollars

834
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 10: and not do public interested things, and figure out ways

835
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 10: of stopping that too.

836
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're if there are two complaints to choose from,

837
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: and one of them is a corporation just taking the

838
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 4: money and handing it to its shareholders without building anything.

839
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 4: And the other complaint is that you're asking them to

840
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 4: build a subsidized daycare center or not even necessarily subsidized,

841
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 4: which is a daycare center you're convenient to the factory.

842
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 4: To get angry at the childcare part just feels like

843
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 4: reactionary right wing populism, or not even populism ractionary, just

844
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 4: right wing stuff. And it's weird to see kind of

845
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 4: ezra on on that side, like Emily right. If you

846
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 4: had if those are the two things to complain about,

847
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 4: wouldn't the populist complain about the corporate executives who were

848
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 4: like walking away with the money, like I wish that

849
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 4: was easy, like the thing that landed easy more easily

850
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 4: with the public.

851
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean also, I think that's why some on

852
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 5: the right look back at Chips and say, because there

853
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 5: were Republicans at the last minute who had been supportive

854
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 5: of the legislation and ultimately voted against it, and populist republicans,

855
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 5: they should say, and they're probably very happy. They may

856
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 5: not say this publicly, but they're they're probably very happy

857
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 5: to have the manufacturing, the Chips manufacturing come to the

858
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 5: United States and probably say, in the aggregate, it was

859
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 5: the cost benefit analysis works out on the side where

860
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 5: the benefits outweighed the costs.

861
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're not China. We can't just do good things.

862
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 4: We have to buy off our corporate class to ask

863
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 4: them to give us permission.

864
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, and I would lets say one last thing, which

865
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 10: is that again, I'm not defending every single government program

866
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 10: as perfectly efficient, but it's not like the private sector

867
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 10: does everything perfectly efficiently, right, And so you know, and

868
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 10: whenever people will complain to me about, oh, you know,

869
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 10: I had to wait in line at the DMV, or

870
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 10: my IRS refund is taking a week to come to me,

871
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 10: it's like, have you ever dealt with Comcast? Have you

872
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 10: ever dealt with any of these companies? That had to

873
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 10: complaint with them. You know, are they perfect at dealing

874
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 10: with your issues? The point is it's hard to do

875
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 10: some of these things. These are complicated things. There's going

876
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 10: to be some inefficiency in the process. There's going to

877
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 10: be some slippage. It's up to us to minimize that

878
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 10: as much as we can. But we should hold ourselves

879
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 10: to a reasonable standard that's at least roughly equivalent to

880
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 10: what the private sector does, and we should be clear

881
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 10: eyed about the fact that there's a lot of inefficiency

882
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 10: there too.

883
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 4: Well, let's talk more about this in the next segment

884
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 4: that where we're going to go deeper into the debate

885
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 4: over this abundance agenda. Ezra Klin has been making the

886
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 4: media rounds for his new book on a Bunnets and

887
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 4: is getting very little pushback. So we're going to give

888
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 4: him a little bit of that here today. The tiniest

889
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 4: little poke that he got came from the pod Save Bros.

890
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 4: Who characterized some of the criticism that's coming his way

891
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 4: from the left. But if you'll notice in this answer,

892
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 4: he doesn't really address it.

893
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 13: But let's roll this clip here. You mentioned some of

894
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 13: the critique from the left. I'm sure you've read all

895
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 13: of it, or read.

896
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: Most of it.

897
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 13: I'm sure you've talked about the Zephyr teach Out review

898
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 13: of Abundance. I wanted to get your reaction to one

899
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 13: part of that because I think it summarizes a lot

900
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 13: of the criticism on the left. I mean, you mentioned

901
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 13: the Bernie side. There's also a warn S critique as well,

902
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 13: and she writes I still can't tell after reading Abundance

903
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 13: whether Klein and Thompson are seeking something fairly small, bore

904
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 13: incorrect we need zoning reform, or non trivial and deeply

905
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 13: regressive we need deregulation, or whether there's room within Abundance

906
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 13: for anti monopoly politics and a more full throated unleashing

907
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 13: of American potential. Matt Brunig has a similar critique. He

908
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 13: says it would be a huge mistake to sideline whatever

909
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 13: focus there is on welfare state expansion and economic egalitarianism

910
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 13: in favor of a focus on administrative burdens in construction.

911
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 13: It's not a book about like monopolists power practices in

912
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 13: corporate concentration.

913
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:03,919
Speaker 9: So I get that.

914
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 13: I guess to the question that teacher, i'd ask, is

915
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 13: there room in Abundance for a critique of concentrated economic

916
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 13: power and anti monopoly politics and all that.

917
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 14: Trying to think about the nicest way to say this,

918
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 14: my friends, in the whole problem is oligarchy part of

919
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 14: the party, and I believe a good part of our

920
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 14: problems are oligarchy. But there are certain kinds of problems

921
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 14: here then willing to see, and certain kinds they're not

922
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 14: as willing to see. So in housing, I find a

923
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 14: lot of them get obsessed with this idea that private

924
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 14: investors are buying up a bunch of rental housing and

925
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 14: this is an extremely small part of the market right now,

926
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 14: and it is just not the main problem in housing,

927
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 14: but because it is the villain they are comfortable having,

928
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 14: it is where they want to put their focus. Kamala

929
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 14: Harris I was very excited when she brought out her

930
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 14: big plan to build three million units of housing, but

931
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 14: our plan never would have achieved anything like it. It

932
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 14: did have a big thing about trying to do something

933
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 14: about this private investor up housing issue, though, so you

934
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 14: can really get I think, taken off the track. A

935
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 14: thing I found like really interesting in Zephyr's review was

936
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 14: that is it something good and small like zoning reform,

937
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 14: and like, try doing zoning reform if you think it's small,

938
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 14: right or something bad like the regulation Okay, interesting, right, Yeah.

939
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 14: Deregulation is a word that I think shuts liberals down

940
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 14: a bit, and it shouldn't a lot of what we're

941
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 14: pointing out in the book is it The player that

942
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 14: is often most regulated is not the market, it's the

943
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 14: government itself. If you want to understand why the government

944
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 14: can't build public housing effectively, I mean, in many ways

945
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 14: the federal government building public housing is now functionally illegal.

946
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 14: It's been regulated out of possibility. If you want to

947
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 14: know why we didn't build California high speed rail, if

948
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 14: you want to know why it's so expensive build affordable housing

949
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 14: in a lot of liberal jurisdictions, when you trigger public money,

950
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 14: it is because of the regulations we put on government.

951
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 4: Now, one of the key arguments in Ezra's book is

952
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 4: that liberals have kind of wrapped the government, tied the

953
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 4: government up with too much regulation, and that's keeping it

954
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 4: from allowing the abundance to flow. And one of the

955
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 4: ten poll case studies that he uses in the book

956
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 4: is the billions that were appropriated by Congress to lay

957
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 4: out royal broadband and the lack of any royal broadband

958
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 4: resulting from that. There was a viral a John Stewart

959
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 4: clip that where he kind of lays out this this

960
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 4: byzantine and ridiculous process. When we come out of this clip,

961
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 4: we're going to talk to the Biden administration official who

962
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 4: was probably the most intimately involved in this project, to

963
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 4: get the kind of the other side of the story

964
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 4: of what happened here. But first let's roll some of

965
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 4: this clip from the John Stewart interview. And if you

966
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: haven't seen this, this the whole thing's kind of funny

967
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 4: and worth watching, even though there's a glaring hole in it.

968
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 9: Go ahead.

969
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 11: So for a royal broadband, for instance, what you end

970
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 11: up having is a fourteen stage process, Like there's a

971
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 11: period where the Commerce Department needs to drop a map

972
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 11: of which parts of the country don't have the right

973
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 11: amount of broadband, and then there's a challenge period on

974
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 11: the map and da da da da da da da,

975
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 11: and states and jurisdictions try to apply for this money,

976
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 11: and again this passes. At the end of twenty twenty one,

977
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,959
Speaker 11: they have time. By the end of twenty twenty four,

978
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 11: three have got into.

979
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: The end of the process.

980
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 11: They were trying.

981
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 4: Three of these fifty six Yes, end of the process,

982
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 4: meaning they've actioned it, they've built it, or they've now

983
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 4: they've gotten done.

984
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 11: Of course I didn't mean they thought that, John, Sorry,

985
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,479
Speaker 11: I was so okay, I confused you. They just got

986
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 11: to the point where in theory they could get the

987
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 11: money to build.

988
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: They had been approved for the money.

989
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 9: Yes, yes, basically Okay.

990
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 4: So we have a running kind of series on this

991
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 4: program where we try to treat our viewers like adults,

992
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 4: and so we're going to do that today. And so

993
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 4: we're joined by Barat Rommerty, who was a top Biden

994
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 4: administration economic policy official, deputy director of NED.

995
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: Is that any c any c.

996
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 4: And to contextualize you in the spectrum kind of a

997
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 4: Warrenite like former what Elizabeth Warren person and one of

998
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 4: the people that Wall Street would be angry at the

999
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 4: Biden fort saying, you know, you're ruining what should be

1000
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 4: a glorious administration by bringing in all these people who

1001
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 4: are so skeptical of corporate power and being so being

1002
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 4: so rude to us, and so as it goes on

1003
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 4: at length in that in that interview and in his book,

1004
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 4: laying out really what is an outrageous and absurd process,

1005
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 4: Like people who want royal broadband, would like Congress to

1006
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 4: appropriate money and would like broadband to be built so

1007
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 4: that they can plug their laptop in work from home

1008
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 4: in a nice wooded area, or they can you know,

1009
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 4: or if you live there.

1010
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: You can stream.

1011
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 4: People want one the damn broadbands and then they didn't

1012
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:53,959
Speaker 4: get it. So what is what is being left out

1013
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 4: of this question? Why did they do something so dumb?

1014
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 9: Yep? Well, I would say a couple of things.

1015
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,439
Speaker 10: Number One, if you look at both the answer that

1016
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 10: Ezra gave on Podz and his answer there, the clear

1017
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 10: implication is silly liberals. They designed this complicated fourteen step

1018
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 10: process all by themselves because they're obsessed with making sure

1019
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 10: that every single group in the United States has an

1020
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 10: opportunity to weigh in, and they don't prioritize actually building

1021
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 10: things as somebody who was directly involved in both negotiating

1022
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 10: this and then ultimately try and implement it. A lot

1023
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 10: of those steps, almost all of them came from Republicans. Now,

1024
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 10: remember this came out of the Bipartisan Infrastructural Law. You

1025
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 10: needed sixty votes in the Senate to get that through.

1026
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 10: So you needed to work with Republicans in order to

1027
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 10: get the bill.

1028
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 4: Passed because Mansion and Cinnemon insisted on pulling it out

1029
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 4: of reconcising exection. For those who remember that whole process,

1030
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 4: the reconciliation would have meant fifty votes. Democrats do it

1031
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 4: on their own. Mansion and Cinema insist on pulling it out.

1032
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 4: Now you need Republicans go ahead.

1033
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 10: So we're stuck in the situation where we need to

1034
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 10: get at least ten Republican votes. Okay, and where did

1035
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 10: those specific steps come from? For example, Ezra pointed out,

1036
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 10: you needed to complete this map, not actually the Commerce Department.

1037
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 10: The SEC had to complete a map which says, here's

1038
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 10: where broadband is and is in the entire United States

1039
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 10: of America. We told them, look, it's going to take

1040
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 10: at least eighteen months for the SEC to complete this map.

1041
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 10: It's a complicated process to literally figure out whether every

1042
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 10: location in the United States has broadband or not.

1043
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 9: But Republicans insisted that that map.

1044
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 10: Be comed completed before we even allocated a single dollar

1045
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 10: to a state to build this stuff. And the challenge

1046
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 10: process he brought that up to who pushed for the

1047
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:36,280
Speaker 10: challenge process.

1048
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 9: The big incumbent internet providers.

1049
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 10: Why did they push for that because the thing that

1050
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 10: they are most afraid of is the federal government spending

1051
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 10: money to build the new broadband that would directly challenge

1052
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 10: and compete with the broadband that they're already offering in

1053
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 10: certain places. So they said, we got to make absolutely

1054
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 10: sure that not a dollar of federal money is spent

1055
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 10: to build infrastructure where we already provide some broadbands service.

1056
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 10: And so we need a lengthy challenge process to make

1057
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 10: sure that we can say this household you say doesn't

1058
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 10: have internet access, actually we provide it with internet access.

1059
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 10: So of course that takes time too, or we even

1060
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 10: planned to. We have an expansion plan such that in

1061
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 10: the next year we will be providing service to it.

1062
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 10: So a lot of these steps came from the industry

1063
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 10: working through this set of negotiating Republicans to put these

1064
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 10: hurdles into place. And now, so the next question, not

1065
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 10: to anticipate what you're saying, but the dexter is probably

1066
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 10: why do we agree to do it if we thought.

1067
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 9: This was such a silly process. Two reasons.

1068
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 10: Number one, we already had ten billion dollars through an

1069
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 10: earlier bill that we passed that was moving much more

1070
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 10: quickly because it was a democratic only bill operating through

1071
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 10: the Treasury Department that was providing internet service. And that

1072
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 10: bill has already provided connections to hundreds of thousands of

1073
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 10: households that really needed it. So we said, we have

1074
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 10: this bridge basically a programs providing internet in the short term.

1075
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 10: We can afford to do a longer term process. And

1076
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 10: if you look, we weren't out there saying this is

1077
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 10: a shovels in the ground tomorrow type program. From the

1078
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 10: very beginning, we said, this is about connecting households by

1079
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 10: twenty thirty and doing it in a thoughtful, step by

1080
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 10: step way. If we're up to me, we would have

1081
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 10: done it faster. But the point is number one, Republicans

1082
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 10: were the ones who put those barriers into place. And

1083
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 10: number two, it's still this isn't an example of government waste.

1084
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 10: It's not like we've spent forty billion dollars and we've

1085
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 10: built and nothing has happened. The money's just sitting there

1086
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 10: in the treasury waiting to be deployed until we have

1087
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 10: completed these steps.

1088
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: So republic go ahead. Yeah, Emily job Right.

1089
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,720
Speaker 5: I was just jump in because I could maybe channel

1090
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 5: Ezra and Derek Thompson here and say, you know, they

1091
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 5: look at the red the blue states. The book focuses

1092
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 5: on what's the difference between California and Texas, And my

1093
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,280
Speaker 5: question based on that would just be to what extent

1094
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 5: did Democrats or did the I guess left's push for

1095
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 5: more regulation, which I think is being defended by some

1096
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 5: people as abundance comes out for totally reasonable justifications, meaning

1097
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 5: you know, what case of which regulations do you want.

1098
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 6: To get rid of?

1099
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 5: And in this process you want to get rid of

1100
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 5: some of these good regulations. So what from your perspective

1101
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 5: did the left, Like what culpability does the left have

1102
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 5: in the broadband case, more specifically for extending the process

1103
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 5: if anything? Or was it really I mean many such

1104
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 5: cases of industry getting these carveouts that make us wildly

1105
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 5: less than efficient on a bipartisan basis, But what did

1106
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 5: the left do that may have extended the process here?

1107
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 10: I would say that in terms of that fourteen step

1108
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 10: process that Ezra highlighted, those steps came from Republicans. And

1109
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 10: the reason I feel confident saying that is because the

1110
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 10: Democrats went into those negotiations with a bill, a bill

1111
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 10: that was broadly supported in the Democratic Caucus by Senator

1112
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,240
Speaker 10: Klobachar and Representative Clyburn that was a much faster acting

1113
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 10: bill and didn't have any of these fourteen steps included

1114
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 10: in it, and those steps came in in their negotiations

1115
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 10: with Republicans.

1116
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 9: I will admit there were things.

1117
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 10: That that we in the Biden administration and the left

1118
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 10: more generally were pushing for in that process.

1119
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 9: And let me give you a couple examples.

1120
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 10: Number One, we wanted to make sure that if we

1121
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 10: were going to build this broadband that it was actually

1122
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 10: going to deliver affordable service.

1123
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 9: To middle class families at the end of it.

1124
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 10: So we put in a regulatory requirement that when states

1125
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 10: applied for this money, they had to show how this

1126
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 10: progress a process was going to produce broadband for that

1127
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 10: was affordable to middle class people. Why did we do

1128
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 10: that because we had stories from across the country, especially

1129
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 10: at the state level, where states had spent a lot

1130
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 10: of money trying to build out broadband to rural areas

1131
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 10: and the broadband got built and then what ended up happening.

1132
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 10: These are by definition areas where there's only a single provider,

1133
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 10: so they were charging one hundred and fifty two hundred

1134
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 10: dollars two hundred fifty dollars a month for service.

1135
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: How useful is that people either pay or you don't

1136
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: get it?

1137
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, and how useful is that to people if you

1138
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 10: spent a bunch of taxpayer dollars to build out broadband

1139
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 10: and then people can't really afford it. So this was

1140
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 10: actually pushed for by John Tester not exactly here the left,

1141
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 10: because he'd had this experience in Montana try to serve

1142
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 10: a lot of rural households. So that requirement came in,

1143
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 10: and of course that's going to take a little bit

1144
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 10: of extra time, and it's going to take a little

1145
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 10: bit of extra process for states and for working with

1146
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 10: their private sector partners to say, here's our actual plan

1147
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 10: for making sure that a family that makes forty five

1148
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 10: thousand dollars a year can afford this service. But to me,

1149
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 10: there's no point in building out infrastructure if people can't

1150
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 10: afford it at the end of the day and actually

1151
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 10: use it. So I'm not going to say that there's

1152
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 10: nothing that we put into it, but in terms of

1153
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 10: the actual the length of time that it took to

1154
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 10: get from step one to the end. Almost all of

1155
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 10: those steps came from the Republican negotiators.

1156
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 4: And when we say Republican negotiators, we're really talking about

1157
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 4: the cable and you know, the ISP's internet providers.

1158
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, look, I don't want to yes.

1159
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 10: A lot of it, especially the stuff about the challenge

1160
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 10: process was because of corporate interest wanting to make sure

1161
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 10: that we didn't quote unquote overbuild.

1162
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 9: That's the term that they use a.

1163
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 4: Lot, because they're very concerned about waste expire dollars, right exactly.

1164
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 5: Which, by the way, is interesting as Republicans become dominant

1165
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 5: in rural America, right, Like, that's a fairly interesting political

1166
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 5: dynamic as well, that there's still Republican politicians are still

1167
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 5: overly responsive to that industry completely.

1168
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1169
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 10: But the other thing is that look, as I said,

1170
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 10: there's a lot of examples in West Virginia and Montana

1171
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 10: in Maine of states trying to build out broadband and

1172
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 10: it didn't actually produce usable broadband for people. And the

1173
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 10: thing is, once you put a little bit of money

1174
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 10: into it and you start building it out, and then

1175
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 10: let's say they don't complete the project, they really have

1176
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 10: you over a barrel, because they're going to say, don't

1177
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 10: you want to give us another ten million dollars to

1178
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 10: actually complete.

1179
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 9: This thing at this point? Right?

1180
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 10: And so a lot of these folks were burned by

1181
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 10: efforts at the state level. So I want to give

1182
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 10: them some credit and say they were actually focused in

1183
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 10: some cases on let's make sure that we think about

1184
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 10: this and do it efficiently at the end of the day.

1185
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 10: And I think that that sort of gets into the

1186
00:59:55,240 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 10: broader abundance debate, right, because sometimes efficiency means fast.

1187
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 9: I agree with that.

1188
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 10: But the same folks who who will say let's do

1189
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 10: this as quickly as possible, will come back a year

1190
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 10: later and say, why did you waste so much money?

1191
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 9: Right, because you went so fast.

1192
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 4: So the abundance argument from Ezra and Derek Thompson's zero's

1193
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 4: in a lot on housing, because like I think that's

1194
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 4: the that's the place where you can really kind of

1195
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 4: nail some of these nimbi's who were just you know,

1196
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 4: throwing up obstacles because they legitimately don't want something built

1197
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 4: like right near where they live. And but then he

1198
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 4: extends that to the whole country and to other policies

1199
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 4: without explaining how those are similar, similar situations, and never

1200
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 4: talking about the role of corporate power and corporate and

1201
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 4: corrupt and what is effectively corruption, Like it's not Democrats

1202
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 4: and when they're drawing this bill were not stupid, they

1203
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 4: were corrupt, and Republicans were not dumb. They didn't didn't

1204
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 4: not know what was going to happen here. They were

1205
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 4: taking money from corporations who got a vested interest in

1206
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 4: having this play out in a certain way. Have you

1207
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 4: have you seen other instances of the way that corporate

1208
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 4: power and corporate concentration contort and distort policymaking and make

1209
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 4: it look like and produce regulations that the public is like, god,

1210
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 4: stupid liberals, but they're actually designed by corporations to protect

1211
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 4: their own.

1212
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: Monopolies. Absolutely, and look any other examples.

1213
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 10: I'm more familiar with a federal level because that's where

1214
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 10: I've spent my life in policymaking, and I don't want

1215
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,479
Speaker 10: to deny the idea that, especially at the state level,

1216
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 10: there's lots of barriers that are imposed and maybe a

1217
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 10: lot of them come from sort of house interesting, yeah,

1218
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 10: but look on housing in particular. Let me just make

1219
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 10: a point, if the if The issue is as as

1220
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 10: in that pod safe clip, you want to do zoning reform.

1221
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 9: You know, as you said, I worked for Senator Warren.

1222
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 10: We wrote a big comprehensive housing bill and introduced it

1223
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 10: in twenty eighteen, long time ago, and a key part

1224
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 10: of that was federal money for new housing, but a

1225
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,439
Speaker 10: big pot of money for zoning reform, basically a race

1226
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,439
Speaker 10: to the top process. That said, any state or any

1227
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 10: locality that changes zoning requirements gets access to this big

1228
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 10: pot of money and they can use it to build

1229
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 10: new parks and roads and whatever. So that's been on

1230
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 10: our radar and something we've been pushing for for a

1231
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 10: long time. I think the question is are they talking

1232
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 10: about more than that? And let's think about what those

1233
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 10: barriers are. Are we talking about labor laws, laws that

1234
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 10: prevailing wage laws, Davis Bacon, you know, child labor laws.

1235
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 10: You know, we could build a lot faster if we

1236
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 10: allowed fourteen year olds to work. Is that something that

1237
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 10: we should be in favor of? You know, environmental protections.

1238
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 10: Are we going to be more willing to accept dirty

1239
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 10: water or polluted air because we want to build faster?

1240
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 10: I think those are the actually hard questions and it's

1241
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 10: not clear to me what their answer is on those

1242
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 10: types of questions. To your point, at the federal level,

1243
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 10: in almost every instance, the actor that is slowing down

1244
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 10: the government from acting is a corporate interest. You know,

1245
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 10: there's this thing called the Administrative Procedures Act. It basically

1246
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 10: governs how the federal government can issue new guidelines and rules.

1247
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 10: And the way it works is that you have to

1248
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 10: issue if you're trying to do something, you have to

1249
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 10: issue something a proposed rule. You give the public an

1250
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 10: opportunity to comment on it. The agency has to come

1251
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 10: back and respond to those comments and make sure that

1252
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 10: incorporate those comments into whatever their final rule is.

1253
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 9: And if you don't, you can get sued.

1254
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 10: Who are the people who are submitting comments saying this

1255
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 10: goes too far, this is too quick, this is inefficient.

1256
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 10: Almost always corporate interests in their lobbyists. Regular people like

1257
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 10: you and me aren't sitting there looking at the Federal

1258
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 10: Register and submitting a twenty five page comment on a

1259
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 10: potential rule. And who is it who's suing the government

1260
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 10: saying you didn't quite follow our comments and therefore you

1261
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 10: should stop doing this rule. It's corporate interests, Time after time,

1262
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 10: so I agree with the broader project of abundance here.

1263
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 10: I would love for the government to move more quickly.

1264
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 10: I would love to build more housing, more energy, everything,

1265
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:00,080
Speaker 10: But we should be clear eyed about what it is

1266
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 10: that stops that from happening, at least at the federal level,

1267
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 10: and more often than not, it's incumbent corporate interests who

1268
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 10: like things the way that they are right.

1269
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 5: Now, Well go ahead, Emily, Well yeah, I mean, I

1270
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 5: was just gonna say, I think sometimes like this sexually,

1271
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 5: something that miss is missing on the right a lot,

1272
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 5: which is this obvious reality that corporations sometimes will push

1273
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 5: for regulations, like there was a point where Facebook came

1274
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 5: out totally in favor of Section two thirty because they

1275
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 5: knew they could handle the regulatory burden of Section two

1276
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 5: thirty always that any other potential competitors, not really that

1277
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 5: they have potential competitors, but hypothetically could not handle.

1278
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:36,439
Speaker 6: And so I think that's true.

1279
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 5: I just wonder if you think that the left is

1280
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 5: sometimes overly responsive to those pushes from corporations because there's

1281
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 5: this there's habitual, I guess, reflex to say, well, yes,

1282
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 5: it's appropriate for the government to step in, and then

1283
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 5: they just kind of stack up on top of each

1284
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 5: other in ways that are inefficient.

1285
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 6: I don't know.

1286
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 5: I'm just curious that, like, genuinely what you think of that.

1287
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 10: Look, I don't want to make it seem like I'm

1288
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 10: trying to absolve the left from culpability here.

1289
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 9: There is.

1290
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 10: I can think of a handful of instances in my

1291
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 10: personal experience where there is a bit of an obsession

1292
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 10: over doing the process right. I think people think of them, so,

1293
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 10: you know, on the left, thinking themselves as the good

1294
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 10: government people, people who want government to work, and they

1295
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 10: sometimes conflate that with the idea that that means that

1296
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 10: we should take into account every single piece of feedback

1297
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 10: that we get and make sure that we're accounting for

1298
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 10: every single possible argument that anybody could have with something,

1299
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 10: and then trying to come up with something, and that

1300
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 10: is a deterrent to speed and in many cases efficiency. Look,

1301
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 10: I'm from the side of the party that wants the

1302
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 10: government to do more stuff, and so I think that

1303
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 10: it's really important that we show that government can move quickly,

1304
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 10: can move efficiently, and I agree with all of those

1305
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 10: end goals that I think the diagnosis of what is

1306
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 10: stopping us from doing that is lacking a little bit

1307
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 10: in the abundance books because they're putting it all on

1308
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 10: sort of liberal interest groups. And again at the federal level,

1309
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 10: that has not been my experience.

1310
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 9: It has been in.

1311
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 10: Many cases both the right and the left being very

1312
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 10: attentive to corporate interests and to incumbent large corporations in

1313
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 10: particular in what they're pushing for.

1314
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 4: Kind of a separate but related question, isn't this all

1315
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 4: mooted by starlink?

1316
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: Like can't they just do?

1317
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 4: Like it feels like that that product is getting quite good,

1318
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 4: and it's like, you know what, maybe actually give up

1319
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 4: on the whole laying broadband everywhere?

1320
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: Look, or am I wrong about Like I'm.

1321
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 9: Not a I think that.

1322
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 10: You know, we did an extensive amount of analysis about

1323
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 10: the right way of serving these households, and if you

1324
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 10: look at both a technical analysis and sort of a

1325
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 10: basic cost benefit analysis, trying to lay fiber optic cable

1326
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 10: to as many of these households as possible is the

1327
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 10: right way to go. It saves money in the long term,

1328
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 10: it's basically a future proof product. You do it now,

1329
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 10: you don't have to come back in five or ten

1330
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 10: or fifteen years. And dig it up and do it

1331
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 10: all over again. Whatever development's happened in the world of

1332
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 10: delivering internet to people having fiber optic cable going to

1333
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,479
Speaker 10: these houses can do that right now.

1334
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 9: Starlink.

1335
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 10: Sure it is a pretty effective product, but number one,

1336
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 10: it hasn't been shown to be able to consistently deliver

1337
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 10: the kinds of speeds that you need to do what

1338
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 10: you talked about, stream video, do telemedicine, all the stuff

1339
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 10: that we actually want to do to make sure that

1340
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 10: rural communities are fully linked into the economy. Second of all,

1341
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 10: I don't know about you, but I would have real

1342
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 10: concerns about putting internet access for ten, fifteen, twenty million

1343
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 10: households completely in the hands of one guy who's already

1344
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 10: shown that he's willing to take the network on and

1345
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 10: offline depending on his own personal whims and so I

1346
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 10: think that that's a concern too.

1347
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 1: And also there's a limit to how much junk you

1348
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: can have flying up there completely. There's that too.

1349
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 9: There is.

1350
01:07:53,920 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 4: So fascinating conversation, and I guess last question here, in

1351
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 4: responding to some of the pushback that they've been getting,

1352
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 4: they've said, all right, we're gonna come out with a

1353
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 4: little bit more substantive analysis that takes into account some

1354
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 4: of these critiques of corporate power, which like, okay, maybe

1355
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 4: that could have been in the book, but I will

1356
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 4: take it. We'll take it now. One of the things

1357
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 4: they said, well, well, okay, the vibes from the administration

1358
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 4: were such that they weren't really pushing that hard and

1359
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:29,560
Speaker 4: they were throwing up obstacles that they weren't necessarily required

1360
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 4: to throw up by the statute.

1361
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 1: Yep, I'm sure you.

1362
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 4: Saw that argument well as somebody who watched it happen, like.

1363
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: Is that true?

1364
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 4: Like why didn't why didn't you guys push harder despite

1365
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 4: the law that was in place?

1366
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, look, I I'm trying not to take

1367
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 10: offense at that as somebody who after the statute was passed.

1368
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 10: In the broadband case, with all these steps, we would

1369
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 10: have regular meetings with the FCC and the Commerce Department

1370
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 10: and others, and the entire purpose so those meetings was

1371
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 10: how do we speed this up? Okay, so FCC, you're

1372
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:05,720
Speaker 10: saying you need eighteen months to finish this map, can

1373
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 10: you do it in twelve months? If we, for example,

1374
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 10: go out there and encourage all of the states and

1375
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 10: all of the big interliners to you know, out they

1376
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 10: had to submit data about where they have coverage.

1377
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 9: You know, they had ninety days to do it.

1378
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,600
Speaker 10: Let's push them, if they can voluntarily, to do it

1379
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 10: in thirty days so you can start reviewing this stuff

1380
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 10: more quickly. We did that, and we got the incumbent

1381
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 10: ISPs to actually submit data more clickly, more quickly than

1382
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 10: they otherwise would so and we did cut that timeline down. So, look,

1383
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 10: I think there is I'm not going to defend every

1384
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 10: step of this process. We were stuck with a statute

1385
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 10: that was less efficient than it could have been. But

1386
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 10: the idea that the administration didn't care about moving quickly,

1387
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 10: I think is false. And I think that from Secretary

1388
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 10: Raymondo onto the chair of the FCC on down, there

1389
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 10: was a real commitment to try and get this done

1390
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 10: as quickly as possible.

1391
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 4: Right, well, thanks so much for joining us up.

1392
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: Next, we're going to talk about Luigi. They're trying to

1393
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: kill them, that's right, and utter outrage. How can they

1394
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 1: do this?

1395
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 15: All?

1396
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 6: Right?

1397
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:04,759
Speaker 1: Stick around?

1398
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:11,440
Speaker 5: Attorney General Pam Bondi yesterday announced that she was instructing

1399
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 5: prosecutors to seek the death penalty for Luigi Mangioni in

1400
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 5: the murder trial over Brian Thompson. We could put the

1401
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:20,960
Speaker 5: first element up on the screen. Pam Bondi did this

1402
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 5: with a statement yesterday that said Mangioni's murder of Brian Thompson,

1403
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 5: an innocent man and father of two young children, was

1404
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:31,520
Speaker 5: a premeditated, cold blooded assassination that shocked America. After careful consideration,

1405
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 5: I have directed federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty

1406
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,920
Speaker 5: in this case as we carry out Trump's agenda to

1407
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 5: stop violent crime and make America safe again. Now, Olivia

1408
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:47,839
Speaker 5: Ryan gold Over at the Free Press has some feelers

1409
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 5: out in Mangioni world, in the world of Luigi fandom,

1410
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 5: and she checked in on some of the most intense

1411
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 5: Luigi followers. We could put the next element up on

1412
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 5: the screen. Who were, you know, pretty pretty disappointed by

1413
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:07,719
Speaker 5: a Pam Bondi's announcement, although that's not entirely surprising. One

1414
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 5: thing that I wanted to ask you about, Ryan is

1415
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 5: if your sense is that the Mangioni heads are more

1416
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 5: left or right, I think it's pretty obvious that, like broadly,

1417
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 5: a lot of the outpouring of support for ledged murderer

1418
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 5: Luigi Mangioni on videotape. Obviously, in this case shooting Brian

1419
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:33,640
Speaker 5: Thompson in cold blood. A lot of the sport is

1420
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:36,639
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's broadly coming from the left.

1421
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 6: At the same time, I.

1422
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 5: Wonder how much of this also was coming from like

1423
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 5: anti establishment, Maga online, Maga world.

1424
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 6: It's kind of interesting.

1425
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 1: Was it cold blood? I think is there's some hot

1426
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: bloodedness going on there too.

1427
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:56,200
Speaker 5: Definitely hot bloodedness, cold blood in the circumstance, the physical

1428
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,879
Speaker 5: circumstance where Brian Thompson was just walking on the sidewalk,

1429
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 5: they were like fighting or anything.

1430
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough.

1431
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 4: No, he himself is from the like what do you

1432
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 4: call it, like the Kaczynski libertarian right, Yeah, roughly, and there's.

1433
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 1: A lot of that. There's a lot of anti establishment

1434
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: right and yeah, every not.

1435
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 4: Though you know, young young people day you got you

1436
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:25,640
Speaker 4: guys watching this show. You know you're you're you have

1437
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 4: curious cross spectrum politics. But a lot of it is

1438
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 4: organized around knowing that there's something barbaric about the system

1439
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 4: and also knowing that the levers of uh democratic control

1440
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 4: have been have been broken, that they're that in many ways,

1441
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 4: they're an illusion that you can that you can flip

1442
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 4: flip a switch, but if you actually could look behind

1443
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 4: the wall, that switch is unplugged from the wires. There's

1444
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 4: not nothing's going on back there, and the switch is

1445
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,719
Speaker 4: just there for you to mess around with and and

1446
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:01,440
Speaker 4: and keep the kind of rats.

1447
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: Busy in the cage.

1448
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 4: So I think whether that's a left wing anti establishment

1449
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 4: or right wing anti system message, I don't know. And

1450
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 4: it depends on kind of where it's channeled and what

1451
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 4: energy exists at the time to kind of channel it

1452
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 4: in a particular direction, and it shifts over time, as

1453
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 4: we've talked about with the kind of the Bernie to

1454
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:27,639
Speaker 4: Trump pipeline or the Hippie to Que pipeline or whatever

1455
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 4: you have. You know, when you don't present people with

1456
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 4: coherent mechanisms to have their grievances heard, you're going to

1457
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 4: wind up with, you know, pretty psychedelic politics.

1458
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1459
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 5: So Playbook yesterday put an item out that said, quote

1460
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 5: how Trump loses gen Z And that was their little

1461
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:56,800
Speaker 5: blurb about Pambondi's announcement that she was instructing prosecutors to

1462
01:13:56,800 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 5: seek the death penalty for Mangioni and some people on

1463
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 5: the right pushing back on that.

1464
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 6: And you know, I.

1465
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:08,799
Speaker 5: Also think there's some truth that seeking the death penalty

1466
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 5: in this case juxtaposed with you know, you had Bill Cassidy,

1467
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 5: what was he on Newsmax the other day talking about

1468
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,520
Speaker 5: cuts to Medicare and then corrected himself and said reforms.

1469
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 6: Was it Medicare or Medicaid?

1470
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 5: Probably yeah, And so he caught himself referring to quote

1471
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 5: unquote cuts and then sort of smiled at the camera

1472
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 5: and said, I'm sorry, I mean reforms. I think when

1473
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 5: you juxtaposed the death penalty in the super high profile

1474
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 5: case of someone who's become a meme, uh, And I

1475
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 5: think some of the love for Luigi is is genuine.

1476
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:45,799
Speaker 5: A lot of it is like kind of pop culture

1477
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 5: meme energy. But when that's powerful in and of itself,

1478
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 5: and when you juxtaposed that with a Republican party that

1479
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,519
Speaker 5: still has no answer on healthcare other than quote unquote

1480
01:14:55,600 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 5: reform of things like Medicaid, it's actually not a good

1481
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 5: combination politically, Like that Luigi is such a high profile meme,

1482
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 5: is something that's absolutely on the pop cultural radar that

1483
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 5: you're looking to use the death penalty in this case,

1484
01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 5: and also at the same time not having like a

1485
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:23,120
Speaker 5: humane solution to the healthcare crisis in this country is

1486
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 5: genuinely a politically difficult message to carry out, and it's

1487
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 5: such a high profile case that I think it does matter.

1488
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 4: And they also are just stripping their own moral authority.

1489
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:39,639
Speaker 4: Their previous argument was, Okay, you have a legitimate grievance

1490
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 4: that these for profit corporations are making life and death

1491
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:46,680
Speaker 4: decisions so that they can, you know, so that they

1492
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 4: can talk a bigger game at their next quarterly conference call.

1493
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 4: But you shouldn't kill somebody over that. However, we're going

1494
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 4: to kill this guy over that.

1495
01:15:58,680 --> 01:15:59,719
Speaker 1: And maybe I'm just.

1496
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 4: So divorced from regular American politics and the values that

1497
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 4: drive it that that won't even be a problem for

1498
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,839
Speaker 4: the people making the argument. But I think for regular

1499
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:12,640
Speaker 4: people it's like, wait a minute, you just said that

1500
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 4: he has legitimate grievances, but you shouldn't kill the person.

1501
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:20,839
Speaker 4: So you have legitimate grievances against him. He allegedly killed somebody,

1502
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:23,760
Speaker 4: but you're gonna kill him. So now, if we're all

1503
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 4: back on the same moral plane, he allegedly killed one people.

1504
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 4: The insurance companies are killing countless people. So if you're

1505
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 4: going to give up the moral authority of killing. You

1506
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 4: are not fighting then from a very strong ground.

1507
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 5: I don't think, you know, I'm not obviously a death

1508
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:49,040
Speaker 5: penalty person. A lot of the country is, though, and

1509
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 5: I think there's still you know, they would say, go

1510
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 5: ahead and put Brian Thompson on trial, don't shoot him

1511
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 5: in midtown, and so I think.

1512
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 4: That's but then would he get the death penalty after

1513
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:01,600
Speaker 4: you tried him?

1514
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 5: And your point makes sense to me that it's like,

1515
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 5: if you look at the way Brian Thompson is treated

1516
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 5: versus the way Amangioni is treated, or other people who

1517
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 5: are convicted of murder are treated, there's this just glaring

1518
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 5: disparity in the way that white collar criminals are either

1519
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:29,519
Speaker 5: never brought to trial and never treated like criminals.

1520
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 6: I think that's absolutely true.

1521
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 5: And again that's one of those things that the Trump

1522
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 5: era Republican Party was supposed to kind of have an

1523
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 5: answer to this.

1524
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 6: High level of elite corruption, and it just never I.

1525
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 5: Mean, now you have billionaires running around, you know, doing

1526
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:51,000
Speaker 5: liberation and doge, and it's it's not a it's not

1527
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:54,400
Speaker 5: the same I think MAGA that it was in twenty fifteen,

1528
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:58,760
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen. So anyway, that's I think there's something to that.

1529
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:02,679
Speaker 4: And yeah, meanwhile, some of his supporters aren't taking it. Well,

1530
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,200
Speaker 4: we can put up the second element here. This article

1531
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:10,759
Speaker 4: goes through the kind of misery being felt by those

1532
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 4: who you see in Luigi, some type of at least

1533
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 4: vengeance being exacted on their behalf. I wonder at the

1534
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 4: same time if this could backfire. The number one hope

1535
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:35,640
Speaker 4: of people who support Luigi is that there would be

1536
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:39,800
Speaker 4: some sort of jury nullification where this case would be

1537
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 4: prominent enough that everybody going in would know the contours.

1538
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:50,679
Speaker 4: Jury nullification usually can't work because juries are barred from

1539
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,760
Speaker 4: hearing from a defendant you know why they did a

1540
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:57,439
Speaker 4: certain thing, if they did it, if they did it

1541
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 4: for reasons of conscience, like in general, the judge will

1542
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 4: prevent a jury from hearing that and just require the

1543
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:09,879
Speaker 4: jury to adjudicate the case.

1544
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 1: Just based on the facts.

1545
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:13,719
Speaker 4: Facts being guy who's on the street, here's the video,

1546
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:14,799
Speaker 4: here's what happened.

1547
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:16,800
Speaker 1: But so many people.

1548
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 4: Have become familiar with this story that the jurors are

1549
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:22,760
Speaker 4: going to know what's going on here.

1550
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,800
Speaker 1: If the jurors are also and this is the hope

1551
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 1: I'm talking about.

1552
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:29,839
Speaker 4: On the on behalf of his supporters. If the jurors

1553
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 4: know that a guilty verdict is going to mean a

1554
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 4: death sentence, I wonder if that actually increases the likelihood

1555
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 4: from slim to just a little bit less slim of

1556
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 4: jury nullification.

1557
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 1: What do you think.

1558
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 5: No, that's a really interesting point because it's going to

1559
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,640
Speaker 5: be and that's I think it's the political calculation of

1560
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 5: this too, is this trial is going to be so

1561
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 5: high profile. It is going to be like massive media coverage.

1562
01:19:57,479 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 5: Gen Z's going to be paying attention to it. Every

1563
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:03,439
Speaker 5: time I'm Luigi's face, people get a glimpse of Luigi's face,

1564
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 5: it becomes another like iconic meme in the saga of

1565
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:09,040
Speaker 5: Luigi Mangioniu.

1566
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 6: So it's also going.

1567
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:15,160
Speaker 5: To like remind people over and over again that the

1568
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:18,360
Speaker 5: Trump administration is seeking the death penalty, as Pam Bondi

1569
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 5: put it there, part.

1570
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 6: Of Trump's agenda.

1571
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:24,559
Speaker 5: They see this as like an agenda item to seek

1572
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,559
Speaker 5: the death penalty in the case of Mangione And they

1573
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,599
Speaker 5: still don't have an actual answer. In healthcare, if anything,

1574
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 5: they're making cuts. So I mean, I think, yeah, when

1575
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,799
Speaker 5: you're looking at this teenage, well not teenager, this twenty something,

1576
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:42,640
Speaker 5: or maybe he's in his early thirties now, who suffered immensely.

1577
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 5: There's some part of the reason Luigi's story pops is

1578
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,760
Speaker 5: that there's some genuine sympathy for him based on his

1579
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 5: story doesn't justify anything, but it resonates with a lot

1580
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:56,719
Speaker 5: of people who have also been pushed to the brink

1581
01:20:56,760 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 5: of sanity by the misery of the American healthcare system.

1582
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 5: And I think when you have a resonant story like

1583
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 5: that and you elevate it to a death penalty case,

1584
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 5: there's something to what you're saying.

1585
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:10,479
Speaker 1: Right now politically speaking.

1586
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying this is what the Vondi or

1587
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:15,000
Speaker 4: the Trump administration are doing. If I were them and

1588
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 4: I were deeply cynical and just playing this for politics,

1589
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 4: I might throw the case. Trump actually might benefit from

1590
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:27,679
Speaker 4: an acquittal and from the shock that that would create

1591
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:30,679
Speaker 4: among his supporters. And because if you look at the polling,

1592
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:35,800
Speaker 4: young people bio plurality are supportive of Luigi, but the

1593
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 4: overall electorate is not. And a lot of the overall

1594
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 4: electorate is appalled at the people who were.

1595
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:43,400
Speaker 1: Supportive of him.

1596
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 4: And so if you got an acquittal and you had

1597
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 4: all these celebrations in the street, and they would find

1598
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,400
Speaker 4: you know, blue haired kids with like eight ear rings

1599
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 4: out there celebrating, and they would runt those on Fox

1600
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 4: News and so that they would elevate that and say, look,

1601
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 4: this is the country that the Libs want, and so

1602
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 4: just trying to further feed a backlash. So, uh, yeah,

1603
01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 4: if if if you were a deeply cynical political actor

1604
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:13,720
Speaker 4: in the Trump administration, you might actually figure out a

1605
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:16,639
Speaker 4: way to uh to kind of.

1606
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, to throw this one those contradictions.

1607
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:23,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, like what do you care, you know, if you

1608
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:25,720
Speaker 4: if if you can gain political advantage, what do they

1609
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 4: care if they actually execute Luigi or keep them in

1610
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 4: prison or let him let him walk free. And then

1611
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:36,480
Speaker 4: if he's free, every time he's out speaking, he's angering

1612
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 4: all of the people that you know, are are likely

1613
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 4: to support some type of reactionary backlash against that. So

1614
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 4: he's he then becomes a gift to the right that

1615
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:51,679
Speaker 4: keeps on giving. I mean, you're playing with fire, obviously,

1616
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 4: but that's what cynical actors do.

1617
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:57,120
Speaker 6: Well, Ryan, you know this better than I do.

1618
01:22:57,240 --> 01:22:59,599
Speaker 5: But we would have to be talking about probably like

1619
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:04,760
Speaker 5: a Trump fifth term for Luigi to actually be executed you.

1620
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:08,160
Speaker 1: Know under Trump, chance that he outlives Trump is high.

1621
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:09,240
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1622
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 5: Well yeah, because this, I mean, the court battle is

1623
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:16,760
Speaker 5: going to play out and it's going to be very

1624
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:19,800
Speaker 5: high profile, like in the near future. But then there's

1625
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,400
Speaker 5: appeals and all of that in a death penalty case

1626
01:23:22,439 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 5: that could drag on for years and years, So we'll

1627
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 5: see what happens.

1628
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 4: All right, Let's move on to you see Rogan up

1629
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:35,760
Speaker 4: here on the screen the deportation scandal involving and I

1630
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 4: know some people don't like when I call it scandal,

1631
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:38,920
Speaker 4: They just like, what do they want to call it?

1632
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:44,000
Speaker 4: The deportation celebration with the story of the Venezuela is

1633
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:48,640
Speaker 4: getting rounded up along with some MS thirteen members and

1634
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:54,759
Speaker 4: sent down to Nayabukelli's dungeons down in El Salvador broke

1635
01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:59,000
Speaker 4: through to the Joe Rogan podcast partly thanks to front

1636
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,920
Speaker 4: of the show Glenn Greenwald. Let's roll this and then

1637
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:04,280
Speaker 4: and talk about the residents here.

1638
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:07,160
Speaker 16: You got to get scared that people who are not

1639
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 16: criminals are getting like lassued up and deported and sent

1640
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:16,120
Speaker 16: to like El Salvador prisons, like that kind of shit.

1641
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 16: Because I'm I read some story it was a Glenn Greenwald.

1642
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:22,599
Speaker 17: Yeah, yeah, gay bob a guy, Yeah, yeah.

1643
01:24:22,479 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 1: It's Is that true?

1644
01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 6: Is that story accurate?

1645
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,280
Speaker 17: I don't think we know For people who don't know, well,

1646
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 17: from what I read, I think it was in Time magazine. Jamie,

1647
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 17: if you can pull it up and maybe we can

1648
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,759
Speaker 17: get an accurate But basically, with the bunch of these

1649
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,759
Speaker 17: trend to a Agua guys, allegedly they got one guy

1650
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,760
Speaker 17: who at least one guy who wasn't a criminal, who

1651
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:45,360
Speaker 17: was just a gay boba who I think, according to

1652
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 17: the story, came here legally. He was here legally, that's

1653
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 17: what they said. Don't know if car I don't know

1654
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 17: what the details are. Maybe Jamie can find it. No

1655
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 17: criminal record from what it's said in that story. Now,

1656
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:58,680
Speaker 17: this is the problem, right, because the mainstream media has

1657
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:00,680
Speaker 17: been putting out so much shit. I don't know what

1658
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:01,760
Speaker 17: to believe anymore, Right.

1659
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:02,400
Speaker 6: I feel the same way.

1660
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 17: It's and so it's difficult. But it's something that we

1661
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:07,320
Speaker 17: actually brought up in one of our conversations. We enter

1662
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:09,280
Speaker 17: it the guy from the Heritage Foundation. We brought this

1663
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:11,920
Speaker 17: up because I think we talked about this with those

1664
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,559
Speaker 17: as well. When you do things quickly and you do

1665
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:17,639
Speaker 17: things aggressively. That's how you get shit done. But that's

1666
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:21,000
Speaker 17: also when mistakes get made. And I think a human

1667
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 17: being being plucked out of nowhere and ending up in

1668
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 17: a country's never been in, in a maximum security prison

1669
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:29,759
Speaker 17: with gang members seems like a bad thing to happen

1670
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:29,960
Speaker 17: to me.

1671
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:31,839
Speaker 16: It's horrific. It's horrific.

1672
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 17: I don't think that should be controversial.

1673
01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:36,200
Speaker 16: No, that's not controversial at all. And this is the thing,

1674
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 16: you know, measured twice, cut once. This is the like,

1675
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 16: this is kind of crazy that that could be possible.

1676
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 16: That's horrific, And that's again that's bad for the cause.

1677
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 16: Like the cause is let's get the gang members out.

1678
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:51,840
Speaker 16: Everybody agrees, but what's not innocent? Gay hairdressers get lumped

1679
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:54,599
Speaker 16: up with the gangs, and then like, how long before

1680
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,519
Speaker 16: that guy can get out? Can we can we figure

1681
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:58,960
Speaker 16: out how to get him out? Is there any plan

1682
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 16: in place to alert the authorities that they've made a

1683
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:02,800
Speaker 16: horrible mistake and correct it.

1684
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 17: Well, if you think about it from a government perspective,

1685
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:07,120
Speaker 17: and this is where I think it gets quite sinister

1686
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:10,840
Speaker 17: is once you've done that, the incentive structure is never

1687
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 17: going to be to admit that and deal with it.

1688
01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 17: The incentive structure is to say nothing, to cover it up,

1689
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:16,759
Speaker 17: to pretend it didn't happen.

1690
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 4: So if you somehow missed this particular story, this is

1691
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:25,519
Speaker 4: a This is about a man named Andre Jose Hernandez Romero,

1692
01:26:25,640 --> 01:26:29,240
Speaker 4: Venezuelan man who came to the United States in August.

1693
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:32,320
Speaker 1: He said he was fleeing political persecution.

1694
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:36,840
Speaker 4: He had he made an asylum appointment, made came to

1695
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:41,559
Speaker 4: that appointment. When he got there, they noticed on his

1696
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 4: arm that he had a tattoo of a crown. And

1697
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 4: this is from the court documents related to his asylum appointment.

1698
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 4: It says, detaining Hernandez ports this is.

1699
01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 1: It's sick, it's an error. Don't know what ports like.

1700
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:03,600
Speaker 4: These ice agents are not necessarily the best writers. Detaining

1701
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:09,640
Speaker 4: Hernandez has I guess they mean, Uh, tattoos crowns that

1702
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:16,639
Speaker 4: are consistent with those of a trend DEG member. That's

1703
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 4: that's somebody at the Meson Detention Center put put that

1704
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 4: into his documents, that that stealed his fate. Now we

1705
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:30,600
Speaker 4: also know that apparently no Venezuelan gangs use tattoos.

1706
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:31,680
Speaker 9: Uh.

1707
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:34,800
Speaker 4: Whether that's true or not, somebody can maybe fact check

1708
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:37,240
Speaker 4: me and find some small gang that does trend. De

1709
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:43,400
Speaker 4: Aragua does not use tattoos as identifying marks for its members.

1710
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 4: Like that is just a a basic fact that is

1711
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:50,639
Speaker 4: acknowledged across the spectrum about Trinda Iragua.

1712
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:51,680
Speaker 1: Other gangs do.

1713
01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:57,519
Speaker 4: Somehow, the some people in DHS got the idea in

1714
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:01,080
Speaker 4: their head that there were crown tattoos associated with this

1715
01:28:01,479 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 4: with this gang, and so anybody from Venezuela who had

1716
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:08,320
Speaker 4: a crown had to wound up getting classified as a

1717
01:28:08,360 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 4: member of this gang. We reported earlier about the man

1718
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 4: who was a professional soccer player from Venezuela who had

1719
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:20,680
Speaker 4: a crown over a soccer ball which was which was

1720
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 4: a reference to Real Madrid's logo, Real Madrid being his

1721
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 4: favorite team. He's a professional goalkeeper. Venezuelan authorities. You know,

1722
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 4: he got all of his paperwork, showed you absolutely no

1723
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:36,360
Speaker 4: gang connections, you know whatsoever. He also was scooped up

1724
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:38,599
Speaker 4: and said to be this this gang member.

1725
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 1: And so.

1726
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:47,519
Speaker 4: I think Rogan makes a very easily understandable point, and

1727
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:50,559
Speaker 4: a lot of people are agree that this is a

1728
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 4: case met measure twice cut once like that that's the

1729
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:59,719
Speaker 4: perfect cliche to drop on this situation. Because once you cut,

1730
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 4: and this is why you measure twice. Once you cut,

1731
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:03,160
Speaker 4: that's it. You've cut.

1732
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:04,240
Speaker 1: Once.

1733
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:08,080
Speaker 4: You have sent this guy to this El Salvador in dungeon.

1734
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,439
Speaker 4: You've done that. Even if even if they sent him

1735
01:29:11,479 --> 01:29:15,760
Speaker 4: there for one hour and he was beaten up and

1736
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 4: then returned. That is it's a situation so traumatizing, it

1737
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 4: would define the rest of your life. One hour there,

1738
01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 4: he's still there. That and that, to me is what's

1739
01:29:28,040 --> 01:29:32,320
Speaker 4: so startling about this situation. So not only did you

1740
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:35,360
Speaker 4: you know you measure twice, you cut once. Sometimes you cut,

1741
01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 4: if you if you if you if you cut too

1742
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:39,679
Speaker 4: far this direction, you can actually recut it, like there's

1743
01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 4: so the cliche can be overused. But they're not even

1744
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:45,080
Speaker 4: trying to recut here. They're not even trying to fix this.

1745
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:51,240
Speaker 4: So does this matter? Like is there enough of a

1746
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 4: kernel of sense of justice and humanity left that it

1747
01:29:56,200 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 4: can penetrate the kind of Stephen Miller bubble or is

1748
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:06,559
Speaker 4: he so locked in on kind of revolutionary mode that

1749
01:30:06,640 --> 01:30:07,719
Speaker 4: he's just plowing ahead.

1750
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:11,879
Speaker 5: I mean, I thought that was a very incisive exchange

1751
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:16,520
Speaker 5: between Rogan and Constantine kissin partially because of what Constantine

1752
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:18,879
Speaker 5: said at the end where he said the incentive structure

1753
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:22,040
Speaker 5: is not to correct the errors. And that's really important

1754
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:28,679
Speaker 5: here because you have support for mass deportations when it's

1755
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 5: polled quote unquote mass deportations sort of in theory. So

1756
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 5: the abstract idea of mass deportations pulls extremely well in

1757
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 5: those country is majority of people want that, and so

1758
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:42,240
Speaker 5: Stephen Miller, Trump and others in the administration have christinoam

1759
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 5: have looked at that and said, this is our mandate

1760
01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:49,599
Speaker 5: to do mass deportations, and the only way for us

1761
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:53,160
Speaker 5: to do mass deportations this is a logical leap that

1762
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 5: I think is insane, but is to screen for these

1763
01:30:56,360 --> 01:31:00,320
Speaker 5: tattoos and to take these kind of bubble case is

1764
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:04,760
Speaker 5: and just everyone goes to Al Salvador if Venezuela won't

1765
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 5: take them. And the public is so opposed to the

1766
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:13,639
Speaker 5: Democrats policies, to the Biden administration's policies, that we can

1767
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 5: get away with these extreme measures because the alternative is

1768
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 5: so much worse. And so to Constantine Kissing's point, that's

1769
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,120
Speaker 5: part of the background of why the incentive structure is

1770
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:28,040
Speaker 5: not to say, all right, we made a mistake. The

1771
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:32,240
Speaker 5: incentive structure is to double triple quadruple down. And yet

1772
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 5: what we've seen is the administration failed to supply additional

1773
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:38,880
Speaker 5: evidence that let's talk about the barber in this case,

1774
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:43,760
Speaker 5: he's like significantly linked to Trende Arragua and was a

1775
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:48,080
Speaker 5: case that you know, demanded deportation to al Salvador. There's

1776
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 5: still a trunk of the public that has absolutely no

1777
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:53,880
Speaker 5: sympathy for this guy. You know, they just say, it's

1778
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:56,400
Speaker 5: of course, I mean, if you're not a citizen, the

1779
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:59,439
Speaker 5: administration can take you and move you and get you out.

1780
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:02,760
Speaker 5: You know, you don't have the same level of due

1781
01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:06,960
Speaker 5: process and et cetera. That's not going to fly with

1782
01:32:07,080 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 5: the majority of Americans. It may, you know, still be

1783
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:13,000
Speaker 5: powerful with a group of the American people, but where

1784
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:15,880
Speaker 5: what we're seeing here in the Rogan clip is that

1785
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:18,240
Speaker 5: you will start to lose people. It's going to start

1786
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:23,960
Speaker 5: to look insane and un American. And so the the

1787
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:27,000
Speaker 5: thing on that we have this next thot of Caroline

1788
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:30,599
Speaker 5: Levitt getting questioned, this is going to be E two.

1789
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 5: It's it's also happening with the student deportations. Like it's

1790
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:39,439
Speaker 5: a very similar dynamic playing out I think in both cases,

1791
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,879
Speaker 5: and the administration has to start ponying up the evidence

1792
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:44,840
Speaker 5: that the problem for them is they don't seem to

1793
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:47,200
Speaker 5: have it in some of these really high profile cases.

1794
01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:49,320
Speaker 6: So let's take a listen to Caroline Lovett here. This

1795
01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:49,840
Speaker 6: is E two.

1796
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:52,160
Speaker 9: Just changing subjects for one second.

1797
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 15: The administration has expressed a complete confidence in how all

1798
01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:57,880
Speaker 15: the deportation flights to L.

1799
01:32:58,000 --> 01:32:59,960
Speaker 9: Salvador were a conducted.

1800
01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 15: But now that the administration has conceded that there was

1801
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:06,800
Speaker 15: an error of one Salvadoran national, will there be any

1802
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 15: reviews conducted? And does the President express any thoughts on

1803
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:15,000
Speaker 15: the one error that it was disclosed in court last night.

1804
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:17,639
Speaker 18: Well, first of all, the error that you are referring

1805
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:20,599
Speaker 18: to was a clerical error, it was an administrative error.

1806
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:24,280
Speaker 18: The administration maintains the position that this individual who was

1807
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:26,600
Speaker 18: deported to L. Salvador and will not be returning to

1808
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:30,520
Speaker 18: our country was a member of the brutal and vicious

1809
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:33,720
Speaker 18: MS thirteen gang. That is fact number one. Fact to

1810
01:33:33,800 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 18: number two, we also have credible intelligence proving that this

1811
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:40,839
Speaker 18: individual was involved in human trafficking. In fact number three,

1812
01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:43,640
Speaker 18: this individual was a member, actually a leader, of the

1813
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:46,880
Speaker 18: brutal MS thirteen gang, which this President has designated as

1814
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:48,560
Speaker 18: a foreign terrorist organization.

1815
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:53,880
Speaker 5: So ran I think the best that the furthest you'll

1816
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:58,640
Speaker 5: see Stephen Miller and his sort of fellow travelers go

1817
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:03,240
Speaker 5: in this administration is to slow down and start being

1818
01:34:03,320 --> 01:34:06,720
Speaker 5: more judicious in the deportations and maybe just hope it

1819
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:10,160
Speaker 5: fades into the background of the news cycle. But this

1820
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:13,760
Speaker 5: case that they're referring to is really interesting. We can

1821
01:34:13,800 --> 01:34:15,280
Speaker 5: put E three up on the screen. This is a

1822
01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:17,760
Speaker 5: thread from Will Chamberlain, who people have seen on the

1823
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 5: show a couple of times, very staunch conservative, pro Trump

1824
01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:24,920
Speaker 5: attorney who dug into the story of this Maryland Dad

1825
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:29,680
Speaker 5: as The Atlantic called him, who ended up being accused

1826
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:34,880
Speaker 5: of being in MS thirteen and deported by the Trump administration.

1827
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:37,600
Speaker 5: The Trump administration admitted he was deported due to a

1828
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:38,800
Speaker 5: clerical error.

1829
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 6: And this gets us.

1830
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:42,639
Speaker 5: It will go through the case and I think found

1831
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 5: legitimately a lot of things in the case of this

1832
01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:48,840
Speaker 5: man that The Atlantic, just from a journalistic perspective, left

1833
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:50,960
Speaker 5: out of the story. Its audience would have been better

1834
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:55,599
Speaker 5: served knowing the full saga of this guy's pinging through

1835
01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 5: the American court system non citizens pinging through the American

1836
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 5: court citizen system. Why he claimed he suddenly needed an

1837
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:09,000
Speaker 5: asylum after being here for close to the better part

1838
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:12,040
Speaker 5: of a decade. So this is a it's an interesting case,

1839
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:13,839
Speaker 5: but it's one that gets us back to the Constantine

1840
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:16,639
Speaker 5: Kiston point where it's like the media has not done

1841
01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 5: a good job of covering these things up until now,

1842
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,320
Speaker 5: and so the Trump administration knows it can get away

1843
01:35:22,360 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 5: with more because there's so little trust in the media

1844
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:27,559
Speaker 5: that could turn around.

1845
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:27,760
Speaker 6: Though.

1846
01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:32,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so that case and Will's threat is interesting

1847
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:36,400
Speaker 4: because Will kind of allies throughout the whole point or

1848
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:39,639
Speaker 4: kind of sidesteps has an important issue the fact that

1849
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:42,559
Speaker 4: this guy was sent to this El Salvador and torture chamber,

1850
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:48,040
Speaker 4: and Will, in his threat acknowledges that he should not

1851
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:51,799
Speaker 4: have been, that that was wrong, that legally he should

1852
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:57,880
Speaker 4: not have been sent there. Yet he says, well, that's

1853
01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:02,200
Speaker 4: kind of a that's kind of like a minor point here,

1854
01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 4: and I feel like they're kind of Will's kind of

1855
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 4: missing the losing the thread here. So basically what happened here,

1856
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:13,640
Speaker 4: I think, So the guy came. It appears clear that

1857
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:18,400
Speaker 4: he came illegally sometime around twenty eleven, twenty twelve something

1858
01:36:18,439 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 4: like that too. From Elsa Abador to the United States

1859
01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:25,960
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen. He was picked up at a home depot.

1860
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 4: And home depot is where day laborers, you know, gather

1861
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:33,439
Speaker 4: and subcontractors go by every day.

1862
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:36,759
Speaker 1: You know, I have your own tools. I need people

1863
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:39,680
Speaker 1: on a site. Come on. So he gets picked up there.

1864
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:42,439
Speaker 4: He was wearing a Bulls jersey, and so they said

1865
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 4: the Bulls jersey was MS thirteen, which is kind of ridiculous.

1866
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:48,680
Speaker 4: But then they also said they had a confidential informant

1867
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:52,160
Speaker 4: who had knowledge of MS thirteen who said this is

1868
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:54,800
Speaker 4: so and so this is his name in the gang,

1869
01:36:54,840 --> 01:36:57,879
Speaker 4: this is his rank, and this is where he operated

1870
01:36:57,920 --> 01:36:58,759
Speaker 4: as a gang member.

1871
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:00,720
Speaker 1: Turns out he never been there.

1872
01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:04,599
Speaker 4: The confidential most you know, confidential informants are are literally

1873
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:09,200
Speaker 4: paid to lie. Like the confidential informants are not remotely trustworthy.

1874
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:12,439
Speaker 1: But this didn't get adjudicated. It just goes into a hearing.

1875
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:14,800
Speaker 4: He went into a bail hearing and the police said, look,

1876
01:37:14,840 --> 01:37:17,479
Speaker 4: this CI says that this guy is in MS thirteen,

1877
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:19,880
Speaker 4: and so the judge is like, all right, well you don't.

1878
01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:22,760
Speaker 4: You can't rebut this, and so therefore I'm not going

1879
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:24,439
Speaker 4: to give you bail. He spent year, year and a

1880
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 4: half in you know.

1881
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: Locked up.

1882
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:32,080
Speaker 4: Eventually they concluded that this guy was lying, he was

1883
01:37:32,160 --> 01:37:35,240
Speaker 4: not an MS thirteen member. He got out on and

1884
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 4: he has you know, various court dates and then he

1885
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:41,200
Speaker 4: goes into that very long, you know, immigration process, which

1886
01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:45,920
Speaker 4: I think everybody across the spectrum would agree is this

1887
01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:49,759
Speaker 4: is far too long, and he reapplies at that point

1888
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:54,040
Speaker 4: for asylum, saying that his and this is what will

1889
01:37:54,080 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 4: gets into that his family's Papoosa business had run a

1890
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:01,720
Speaker 4: foul of eighteen Street gang down in down at L.

1891
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:06,080
Speaker 1: Salvador. They were extorted, you know, he was threatened.

1892
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:09,120
Speaker 4: It does appear that his brother like that definitely happened

1893
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 4: to his brother, and his brother fled. So there is

1894
01:38:10,920 --> 01:38:14,840
Speaker 4: some real truth to these claims. The question of whether

1895
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:18,080
Speaker 4: you know, ten years later, the threats are still live,

1896
01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:21,120
Speaker 4: that's an open one, and that's the kind of thing

1897
01:38:21,120 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 4: that you then kind of adjudicate in an immigration hearing. Instead,

1898
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:28,360
Speaker 4: it seems like what they did is they were just

1899
01:38:28,360 --> 01:38:31,840
Speaker 4: looking for anybody with any gang affiliations, and I guess

1900
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:33,639
Speaker 4: he popped up in the computer because of his old

1901
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:37,639
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen confidential informant claim that he was in the gang,

1902
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:42,320
Speaker 4: which had since been basically rejected, and because he was

1903
01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:46,880
Speaker 4: moving forward with his asylum claim, effectively there was an

1904
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:50,120
Speaker 4: order that he not be deported to El Salvador, and

1905
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:53,240
Speaker 4: they ignored that order. And so that's what they're saying

1906
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:54,360
Speaker 4: was the clerical error.

1907
01:38:54,439 --> 01:38:54,960
Speaker 1: They're saying.

1908
01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:57,120
Speaker 4: What they're saying is they should have been able to

1909
01:38:57,120 --> 01:39:07,120
Speaker 4: deport him somewhere, not to El Salvador. And there they'll say, well,

1910
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 4: that's that's you know, mistakes happen. It's like, okay, but

1911
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:15,320
Speaker 4: that's a pretty huge mistake. And also secondly, like you

1912
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:17,639
Speaker 4: sent this guy to a dungeon from which he may

1913
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:23,120
Speaker 4: never emerge, like for what, like, for for what crime.

1914
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:27,000
Speaker 4: Let's say you don't like that he entered the country illegally. Okay,

1915
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:30,360
Speaker 4: then you to deport him. You don't like that you're

1916
01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:33,479
Speaker 4: barred from deporting him to El Salvador. Overturn that, say,

1917
01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:35,920
Speaker 4: look the gang Eighteenth Street gang, but Kelly wiped them out.

1918
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:38,280
Speaker 4: We can now deport him. So fix that paperwork and

1919
01:39:38,320 --> 01:39:42,960
Speaker 4: deport him into El Salvador, where he then continues his

1920
01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:46,000
Speaker 4: life as a as a free person in El Salvador.

1921
01:39:46,439 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 1: To put him in chains and fly him down to

1922
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:50,919
Speaker 1: this Dungeon.

1923
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 4: Uh, that's the part that like you're saying, is that

1924
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:56,920
Speaker 4: that's that should be Unamerican.

1925
01:39:58,320 --> 01:40:01,799
Speaker 5: And at the same time, I look at The Atlantic

1926
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:04,880
Speaker 5: as someone on the right and think, why was so

1927
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 5: much of the story left out, even in the interest

1928
01:40:07,400 --> 01:40:09,360
Speaker 5: of time, And I feel like that's where things to

1929
01:40:09,400 --> 01:40:11,840
Speaker 5: the point Constantine Kisten was making in the clip earlier,

1930
01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:14,920
Speaker 5: end up getting locked up because to me, it's very

1931
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:18,080
Speaker 5: important that these stories are told correctly, because there are

1932
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:21,280
Speaker 5: cases that are more sympathetic than these people who claim

1933
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:22,479
Speaker 5: to asylum.

1934
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:24,080
Speaker 6: Right away and do have credible fear.

1935
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:28,000
Speaker 5: You know, this is more credible fear than this, even

1936
01:40:28,040 --> 01:40:32,080
Speaker 5: if there's some evidence that he may have had fear.

1937
01:40:33,200 --> 01:40:35,439
Speaker 5: You know, we're ten years as your point, as you said,

1938
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:39,480
Speaker 5: ten years beyond that point. So it's a different calculation

1939
01:40:39,600 --> 01:40:40,759
Speaker 5: than some others.

1940
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:44,760
Speaker 6: And so it's.

1941
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:47,200
Speaker 5: Hard for people on the right then not you know,

1942
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:49,320
Speaker 5: I'm happy to say it. I'm not in the administration,

1943
01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:53,200
Speaker 5: but for the administration, they feel like politically they can

1944
01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 5: get away with doing these things because people care when

1945
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:02,320
Speaker 5: the media botches it. And you know, Biden lets a

1946
01:41:02,360 --> 01:41:05,840
Speaker 5: net eight million people into the country and basically nobody

1947
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 5: talks about it except for you know, the media ignores

1948
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:12,040
Speaker 5: it for a long time or relatively ignores it for

1949
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:12,759
Speaker 5: a long time.

1950
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:13,360
Speaker 6: And doesn't tell the story.

1951
01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:15,320
Speaker 5: So anyway, all this is to say, I think you

1952
01:41:15,320 --> 01:41:20,519
Speaker 5: know this is the what's likely to the best case

1953
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:24,840
Speaker 5: scenario is that they start to slow down and be

1954
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:26,720
Speaker 5: more judicious about this. And Ryan, one of the things

1955
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,599
Speaker 5: I wanted to ask you is that all it reminds

1956
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 5: me of your story, the drop site story about the

1957
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 5: guy who book La did not want and maybe you

1958
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:40,800
Speaker 5: can I know you've talked about it, But like, what

1959
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:44,280
Speaker 5: if they accidentally do that accidentally?

1960
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:46,080
Speaker 6: What if one of those guys gets caught.

1961
01:41:45,960 --> 01:41:46,200
Speaker 9: Up in this?

1962
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:47,040
Speaker 1: Oh?

1963
01:41:47,120 --> 01:41:51,879
Speaker 4: So yeah, so we did this story jos Er Olivrs

1964
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:52,960
Speaker 4: and I over a drop site.

1965
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:55,280
Speaker 1: It's it's a fascinating piece. He took. He took the

1966
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:56,040
Speaker 1: lead on it.

1967
01:41:57,280 --> 01:42:00,000
Speaker 4: Going through court records relating to some of the MS

1968
01:42:00,160 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 4: teen members that were deported down to El Salvador. And

1969
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:09,960
Speaker 4: there's an absolutely fascinating story behind it. And it's not

1970
01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:13,080
Speaker 4: what anybody would expect from what they hear about Trump

1971
01:42:13,120 --> 01:42:16,639
Speaker 4: and b Kelly. Bu Kelly when he first came to power,

1972
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:20,559
Speaker 4: negotiated and denies this, but everybody knows that it's true.

1973
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 4: Negotiated a secret deal with MS thirteen where they would

1974
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:27,880
Speaker 4: agree to reduce levels of violence in exchange for some

1975
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:31,719
Speaker 4: daytime with the state and some improvement in prison conditions

1976
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:38,840
Speaker 4: for MS thirteen leaders who were already in prison. At

1977
01:42:38,840 --> 01:42:45,040
Speaker 4: some point, Eventually this piece accord with MS thirteen broke down,

1978
01:42:45,320 --> 01:42:49,920
Speaker 4: more violence broke out. Bu Kelly launched his kind of

1979
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:54,719
Speaker 4: more aggressive crackdown on them. But before that happened, MS thirteen,

1980
01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 4: as part of its deal with him, pledged election support,

1981
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:04,040
Speaker 4: and his landslide election victory was significantly a result of

1982
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:06,439
Speaker 4: this secret deal that he cut with MS thirteen. This

1983
01:43:06,520 --> 01:43:09,160
Speaker 4: secret deal is talked about a lot in El Salvador,

1984
01:43:09,200 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 4: but is and is very, very unpopular, but he maintains

1985
01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:16,640
Speaker 4: a complete denial of it to this day. One of

1986
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:19,120
Speaker 4: the people who was involved in those negotiations, his gang

1987
01:43:19,200 --> 01:43:22,960
Speaker 4: name is Grenas. He's here in where he was here

1988
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:26,760
Speaker 4: in the United States, charged with rico and all the

1989
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:29,640
Speaker 4: different things you charge a gang member with, and he

1990
01:43:29,720 --> 01:43:33,160
Speaker 4: was headed to federal court where he was expected as

1991
01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 4: part of his trial, to tell the full story of

1992
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 4: these secret negotiations that bu Kelly had with MS thirteen.

1993
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:42,920
Speaker 4: Bu Kelly has desperately been trying to get his hands

1994
01:43:43,360 --> 01:43:47,320
Speaker 4: on Grainyas and there has been this push and pull

1995
01:43:47,880 --> 01:43:50,799
Speaker 4: where the US has been trying to get its hands

1996
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:53,679
Speaker 4: on people that they know were involved in this deal

1997
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:56,120
Speaker 4: and vice versa. That one of them was in El

1998
01:43:56,200 --> 01:43:59,400
Speaker 4: Salvadoran prisons. Would we write about in the article the

1999
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:01,519
Speaker 4: US had an extradition request out for him.

2000
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:04,280
Speaker 1: Instead, bou Kelly just let him go.

2001
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:08,559
Speaker 4: And bu Kelly's top official who had negotiated this secret deal,

2002
01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:11,200
Speaker 4: drove the guy to the border to get him out

2003
01:44:11,200 --> 01:44:14,320
Speaker 4: of the country. He then gets caught in Mexico and

2004
01:44:14,360 --> 01:44:16,080
Speaker 4: then El Salvador in the US have a fight with

2005
01:44:16,160 --> 01:44:20,439
Speaker 4: Mexico over who can get this guy, because everybody wants

2006
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:24,640
Speaker 4: these top MS thirteen leaders who know the story of

2007
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:27,320
Speaker 4: what bu Kelly did, and so now Trump has now

2008
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:28,160
Speaker 4: sent some of them.

2009
01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:29,479
Speaker 1: So that was bu Kelly's price.

2010
01:44:30,240 --> 01:44:32,240
Speaker 4: He's like, ah, I'll charge with the very tiny fee.

2011
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:37,559
Speaker 4: He's not looking for dollars to house these Venezuelans that

2012
01:44:37,600 --> 01:44:40,400
Speaker 4: the US is deporting there. His price was He's like,

2013
01:44:40,439 --> 01:44:42,760
Speaker 4: I want these guys that know too much about my

2014
01:44:43,160 --> 01:44:46,439
Speaker 4: dealings with MS thirteen. I want them under under my control.

2015
01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:49,599
Speaker 4: So Trump has sent some of them, but we've still

2016
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 4: held on to others as sort of blackmail against bu Kelly.

2017
01:44:54,960 --> 01:44:58,920
Speaker 4: So the story is always a little bit more complicated

2018
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:01,479
Speaker 4: and interesting than than you're being told.

2019
01:45:02,200 --> 01:45:05,280
Speaker 5: But when you're starting to use humans as ponds like

2020
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:10,000
Speaker 5: this at a rapid clip, it's it's well, we'll see

2021
01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:12,120
Speaker 5: our some of those cases end up going. It was

2022
01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:14,519
Speaker 5: a great story out Just before we leave this block,

2023
01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:16,360
Speaker 5: there's another case. We could put the four up on

2024
01:45:16,400 --> 01:45:20,880
Speaker 5: the screen of a Minnesota student from Cato who's now

2025
01:45:20,880 --> 01:45:24,400
Speaker 5: been caught up in these ice deportations.

2026
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 6: Ran, do you have any insight on this?

2027
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's actually kind of hard to keep trying.

2028
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:31,759
Speaker 4: There's another another student who, you know, some very minor

2029
01:45:33,280 --> 01:45:39,280
Speaker 4: protest activity presumably appeared on some list that are pro

2030
01:45:39,400 --> 01:45:42,760
Speaker 4: Israel group sent to UH, you know, sent to the administration,

2031
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,840
Speaker 4: the Canary Mission, Batar and others, are you know, very

2032
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:52,240
Speaker 4: proudly advertising that they are producing lists of students that

2033
01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:55,320
Speaker 4: they that they want that they want kicked out of UH,

2034
01:45:55,520 --> 01:45:58,160
Speaker 4: that they want kicked out of the country for for

2035
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:02,320
Speaker 4: protesting against the war and the war like that is

2036
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:05,880
Speaker 4: like they're very clear, like they're they're not claiming we

2037
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 4: have evidence that this is the person that was swinging

2038
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:11,240
Speaker 4: the hammer that smashed the glass, and that hinds all

2039
01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:13,640
Speaker 4: like they're not I'm not saying that, they're saying that

2040
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:15,800
Speaker 4: this person wrote this op ed, as in the case

2041
01:46:15,840 --> 01:46:18,360
Speaker 4: of oz Turk, or this person you know, came to

2042
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:23,280
Speaker 4: this encampment, or this person tweeted this thing. Uh and

2043
01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:25,760
Speaker 4: and then uh kicking kicking them out of the kicking

2044
01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:29,360
Speaker 4: them out of the country. And Rubio has said that

2045
01:46:29,400 --> 01:46:33,040
Speaker 4: he's canceled, you know, upwards of three hundred student visas

2046
01:46:33,040 --> 01:46:36,599
Speaker 4: and is continuing to do it every every single day,

2047
01:46:36,680 --> 01:46:40,360
Speaker 4: despite you know, when when you apply for a student visa, Uh,

2048
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:45,080
Speaker 4: there's there. It doesn't say anywhere that when you get

2049
01:46:45,120 --> 01:46:49,360
Speaker 4: to the United States, these certain liberties that we hold

2050
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:52,280
Speaker 4: deer for persons in the United States do not apply

2051
01:46:52,400 --> 01:46:57,000
Speaker 4: to you if you are protesting US funding Israel's war

2052
01:46:57,040 --> 01:46:59,240
Speaker 4: and Godza, like there's.

2053
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:01,479
Speaker 1: That was never said. If that's the new rule.

2054
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:05,639
Speaker 4: Now, obviously you could it's quite okay if you're here

2055
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:09,519
Speaker 4: on a student visa to protest for the war. It's

2056
01:47:09,560 --> 01:47:12,160
Speaker 4: not that you can't weigh in, not that you can't

2057
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:15,840
Speaker 4: have an opinion on what's happening in Gaza. As long

2058
01:47:15,880 --> 01:47:17,760
Speaker 4: as your opinion is that it is good and the

2059
01:47:17,840 --> 01:47:22,280
Speaker 4: US should do more of it, that's fine. It's if

2060
01:47:22,280 --> 01:47:26,400
Speaker 4: you are critical of what the United States is doing

2061
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:29,880
Speaker 4: with its support of Israel, then according to Rubio, that

2062
01:47:30,080 --> 01:47:35,839
Speaker 4: is cause for you to be immediately deported. Well, not immediately,

2063
01:47:35,960 --> 01:47:38,840
Speaker 4: that would almost be more humane. First, they're sending these

2064
01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:43,200
Speaker 4: people to detention centers, completely harmless people, having them sit

2065
01:47:43,280 --> 01:47:48,040
Speaker 4: in these brutal detention centers for very long stretches of

2066
01:47:48,040 --> 01:47:50,080
Speaker 4: time before then deported.

2067
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:54,960
Speaker 5: And with those three hundred, With that three hundred number,

2068
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:57,120
Speaker 5: I mean, we've seen maybe half a dozen really big

2069
01:47:57,200 --> 01:47:59,680
Speaker 5: cases so far. But what that means is there's going

2070
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:02,080
Speaker 5: to be a trip trip And again, maybe this will

2071
01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:04,639
Speaker 5: happen with immigration, maybe it will happen with students, and

2072
01:48:05,360 --> 01:48:08,360
Speaker 5: the administration will try to move it to the background

2073
01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:11,960
Speaker 5: and be you know, quieter about it, be slower about it.

2074
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 6: Who knows.

2075
01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:15,479
Speaker 5: But the drip drip is coming no matter what, because

2076
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:19,400
Speaker 5: they've staked a lot on these efforts, so it's it's

2077
01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:22,120
Speaker 5: not going to end. We'll continue to see cases like

2078
01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:25,599
Speaker 5: this one, all.

2079
01:48:25,560 --> 01:48:29,599
Speaker 4: Right, Senator Corey Booker, broke strom Thurman's record for longest

2080
01:48:29,640 --> 01:48:31,760
Speaker 4: speech in the United States Senate. I think it was

2081
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:34,759
Speaker 4: twenty five hours and five minutes.

2082
01:48:34,840 --> 01:48:35,439
Speaker 1: This was.

2083
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 4: This was Booker's response to a deeply frustrated Democratic electorate

2084
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:47,000
Speaker 4: that it's like, isn't there anything that you can do?

2085
01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:52,360
Speaker 4: Something like nothing, like, you can't you can't even negotiate

2086
01:48:52,439 --> 01:48:56,679
Speaker 4: a slightly better cr with these fascists that are rounding

2087
01:48:56,680 --> 01:49:00,160
Speaker 4: people up and destroying you know, the country is far

2088
01:49:00,200 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 4: as we're concerned. And so Booker, you know, came to

2089
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 4: the floor and said, Okay, I'm going to show that

2090
01:49:05,880 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 4: we're at least trying to do something. Let's roll a

2091
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:11,040
Speaker 4: little bit of you know, only a few seconds of

2092
01:49:11,080 --> 01:49:12,200
Speaker 4: this twenty five hours.

2093
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:17,280
Speaker 12: Our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. We need

2094
01:49:17,280 --> 01:49:21,200
Speaker 12: that now from all Americans. This is a moral moment.

2095
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:29,040
Speaker 12: It's not left or right, it's right or wrong. It's

2096
01:49:29,040 --> 01:49:35,519
Speaker 12: getting good trouble. My friend, Madam President, I yield the floor.

2097
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:42,040
Speaker 1: Put up the next element on the screen.

2098
01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:46,719
Speaker 4: So this is, says Corey Boker's officially delivered the longest

2099
01:49:46,760 --> 01:49:49,680
Speaker 4: sentce speech. That is that is that's strom Thurman in

2100
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:53,760
Speaker 4: his earlier years. Actually because I think what he died at,

2101
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:56,200
Speaker 4: like one hundred and one or something like that.

2102
01:49:57,960 --> 01:50:00,680
Speaker 1: Like he was in.

2103
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:03,639
Speaker 4: Congress, like when I was covering Congress, and he set

2104
01:50:03,720 --> 01:50:10,719
Speaker 4: his record filibustering the nineteen fifty seven Civil Rights Act.

2105
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:13,160
Speaker 1: So that's how long this guy.

2106
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:20,400
Speaker 4: Served in the United in the United States Senate, one

2107
01:50:20,400 --> 01:50:26,680
Speaker 4: of the like most one of the most vitriolic segregationists

2108
01:50:26,720 --> 01:50:29,400
Speaker 4: in the United States Senate. There's a I forget what

2109
01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:31,760
Speaker 4: book it's in, but there's a scene where there are

2110
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:37,800
Speaker 4: a couple of you know, hardcore white supremacist Democrat senators

2111
01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:40,000
Speaker 4: in like the nineteen forties or fifties are watching a

2112
01:50:40,000 --> 01:50:43,439
Speaker 4: strong therm and speech and one of them, you know,

2113
01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:45,840
Speaker 4: says to the other They're like, my god, this guy

2114
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:47,000
Speaker 4: really believes this stuff.

2115
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:51,519
Speaker 1: Like the racists thought that this guy was like two

2116
01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:52,640
Speaker 1: over the top, and it is.

2117
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:58,280
Speaker 4: It has always been a real crawl or thorn in

2118
01:50:58,320 --> 01:51:01,760
Speaker 4: the side of Democrats who are now on the other

2119
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:04,680
Speaker 4: side of this white supremacy question.

2120
01:51:05,960 --> 01:51:07,320
Speaker 1: That he held this record.

2121
01:51:07,400 --> 01:51:11,280
Speaker 4: So so it wasn't just pushing back against the job

2122
01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:15,599
Speaker 4: administration Booker, and Booker has said as much. He very

2123
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:19,439
Speaker 4: much wanted to knock this guy off the pedestal, and

2124
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:22,479
Speaker 4: he successfully did it with several hours still to go

2125
01:51:23,400 --> 01:51:26,040
Speaker 4: until he until he broke the record, he was saying

2126
01:51:26,120 --> 01:51:28,439
Speaker 4: like he was on the floor saying, I don't think

2127
01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:30,360
Speaker 4: I have enough gas in the tank, like I don't

2128
01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:31,479
Speaker 4: think I don't think I'm going to be able to

2129
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:36,360
Speaker 4: make it. And the galleries filled up. A ton of

2130
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:40,919
Speaker 4: senate Senate Democrats came to the chamber, which is very unusual,

2131
01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:44,360
Speaker 4: the chamber is almost completely empty, and sat there to

2132
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:47,640
Speaker 4: kind of give him a little bit of gas to

2133
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:49,600
Speaker 4: kind of get across the finish line. And when he

2134
01:51:49,640 --> 01:51:54,479
Speaker 4: finally made it, you know, you know, you know, gave

2135
01:51:54,560 --> 01:51:58,240
Speaker 4: him a rousing, rousing applause and around the country you

2136
01:51:58,240 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 4: can put up put up F three.

2137
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:01,320
Speaker 12: It did.

2138
01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:04,479
Speaker 4: It did capture a lot of people's imaginations, like like

2139
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:06,960
Speaker 4: the the TikTok.

2140
01:52:06,640 --> 01:52:11,080
Speaker 1: Numbers were were wild, the the kind of.

2141
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:13,639
Speaker 4: Live streaming numbers that you know, he said he got

2142
01:52:14,200 --> 01:52:19,559
Speaker 4: enormous numbers of calls to to his office. You know,

2143
01:52:19,600 --> 01:52:23,000
Speaker 4: you it's like you know, in a in a dark time,

2144
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:25,160
Speaker 4: even though even a tiny little bit of light is

2145
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:27,519
Speaker 4: something that a lot of people are going to fly toward.

2146
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:30,080
Speaker 4: Did you follow this as it was going on and

2147
01:52:30,120 --> 01:52:33,400
Speaker 4: what what what are? What are Republicans they kind of

2148
01:52:33,439 --> 01:52:36,880
Speaker 4: just amused by this or do they see this as

2149
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:39,760
Speaker 4: a little little flickering of life from the opposition?

2150
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:43,280
Speaker 5: Well, I mean the point you just made about even

2151
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:45,439
Speaker 5: when you're in a period of darkness, even a tiny

2152
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:49,040
Speaker 5: little bit of light can bolster your spirits. I think

2153
01:52:49,080 --> 01:52:51,800
Speaker 5: that the little bit of light here was very, very

2154
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:56,120
Speaker 5: tiny in substance. It's unfortunate that for Democrats like Corey

2155
01:52:56,120 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 5: Booker wasn't filibustering something I think more substance to this

2156
01:53:00,720 --> 01:53:02,519
Speaker 5: was a huge boost in the Tea Party years for

2157
01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:06,360
Speaker 5: Ted Cruz. I think Rand Paul at one point too,

2158
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:14,840
Speaker 5: drones right right, right right, and so it was shutdown. Yes,

2159
01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:18,720
Speaker 5: and there was the green eggs and ham breeding that

2160
01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:22,160
Speaker 5: was much derided at the time. But that's where I

2161
01:53:22,320 --> 01:53:25,439
Speaker 5: want to go with Booker actually is like I just

2162
01:53:25,560 --> 01:53:31,000
Speaker 5: find him rhetorically insufferable, and I don't think his tone.

2163
01:53:31,040 --> 01:53:32,599
Speaker 6: Is like generally lands.

2164
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:35,120
Speaker 5: It might land with the Democratic base, but the clip

2165
01:53:35,160 --> 01:53:37,080
Speaker 5: even that we just played of him ending the filibuster

2166
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:40,360
Speaker 5: a feet, no doubt, like an impressive feet at that,

2167
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:45,960
Speaker 5: But it just especially because it's not organized around a

2168
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:52,120
Speaker 5: substance of like, uh, policy, Like what's the right word?

2169
01:53:52,160 --> 01:53:52,599
Speaker 6: A goal?

2170
01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:55,280
Speaker 5: Right? Like there wasn't a thought he wasn't blocking X

2171
01:53:55,400 --> 01:53:56,960
Speaker 5: or shutting down Y.

2172
01:53:57,920 --> 01:53:59,960
Speaker 6: So I just it's all.

2173
01:54:00,360 --> 01:54:03,360
Speaker 5: But at the same time, those numbers that we just

2174
01:54:03,439 --> 01:54:07,519
Speaker 5: showed are really significant. You know, there's an F four.

2175
01:54:07,720 --> 01:54:09,840
Speaker 5: This is just the voicemail numbers. We put this up

2176
01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:14,160
Speaker 5: on the screen, the voicemail numbers, which sounds silly, but

2177
01:54:14,240 --> 01:54:16,880
Speaker 5: Booker's team just told them SNBC they've gotten fourteen thousand

2178
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 5: voicemails from people for people supporting Corey's filibuster and sharing

2179
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:23,439
Speaker 5: their stories, and another two hundred and eighty million people

2180
01:54:23,439 --> 01:54:26,880
Speaker 5: have liked his speech on TikTok alone. So even when

2181
01:54:26,960 --> 01:54:33,400
Speaker 5: these stunts feel insufferable, they in this case, I think

2182
01:54:33,400 --> 01:54:35,640
Speaker 5: this one is as tempted as I was to dismiss

2183
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 5: it and laugh at it and roll my eyes. He

2184
01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:44,040
Speaker 5: designed it in a way that actually from TikTok in particular,

2185
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:46,840
Speaker 5: but also on other platforms, I think was a real

2186
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:50,800
Speaker 5: shot in the arm for Democrats who are looking to

2187
01:54:50,920 --> 01:54:54,240
Speaker 5: rally a very disillusion base. The base is more disillusion

2188
01:54:54,280 --> 01:54:57,040
Speaker 5: than it was in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen because

2189
01:54:57,160 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 5: Trump came back and won again after of their best

2190
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:03,839
Speaker 5: efforts to stop him. So I think, you know, that's

2191
01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:07,320
Speaker 5: it works with the base and that's what really matters

2192
01:55:07,360 --> 01:55:09,200
Speaker 5: right now heading into a midterm cycle.

2193
01:55:09,880 --> 01:55:12,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and for the parliamentary details, like you really can't

2194
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:17,919
Speaker 4: do a filibuster anymore for the most part, because if

2195
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:20,440
Speaker 4: if you, if the other side gets sixty votes, they

2196
01:55:20,440 --> 01:55:23,840
Speaker 4: can they can they can move to a final vote,

2197
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:27,080
Speaker 4: and if they don't, they can't. Whether you're whether you're

2198
01:55:27,080 --> 01:55:29,760
Speaker 4: talking or not. And so this was just kind of

2199
01:55:29,800 --> 01:55:32,280
Speaker 4: an open session where he just kind of grabbed the

2200
01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:35,640
Speaker 4: floor and what what you can still do in the

2201
01:55:35,640 --> 01:55:36,480
Speaker 4: Senate that you can't do.

2202
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:37,600
Speaker 1: In the House, Like you wouldn't be able to do

2203
01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:38,200
Speaker 1: this in the house.

2204
01:55:39,200 --> 01:55:41,800
Speaker 4: In the House, you get a minute, you get five minutes,

2205
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:43,320
Speaker 4: you get an hour or like whatever you get, you

2206
01:55:43,320 --> 01:55:46,080
Speaker 4: get and when you're and when that's up, you're done.

2207
01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:50,880
Speaker 4: Whereas in the Senate, if you can keep going, you

2208
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:55,360
Speaker 4: can keep going under certain circumstances. What he would do

2209
01:55:56,120 --> 01:55:58,880
Speaker 4: in order to give himself a slight break is he

2210
01:55:58,920 --> 01:56:02,280
Speaker 4: would say somebody would come to the floor, say at

2211
01:56:02,320 --> 01:56:05,320
Speaker 4: Chris van Holland or somebody and say, you know, well,

2212
01:56:05,320 --> 01:56:08,360
Speaker 4: the senator yield and he would say, you know, I

2213
01:56:08,440 --> 01:56:13,120
Speaker 4: yield to the senator for a question, you know, but

2214
01:56:13,240 --> 01:56:16,440
Speaker 4: I'm holding onto the floor. And so he would yield

2215
01:56:16,480 --> 01:56:18,520
Speaker 4: to another Democrat who would then ask him like a

2216
01:56:18,560 --> 01:56:22,400
Speaker 4: fairly long winded question which would allow him to at

2217
01:56:22,480 --> 01:56:24,680
Speaker 4: least give his give his voice a break. But he

2218
01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:27,800
Speaker 4: wasn't allowed to leave, was allowed to sit down, so

2219
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:30,000
Speaker 4: he'd kind of just be shuffling from one foot to

2220
01:56:30,080 --> 01:56:36,680
Speaker 4: the other, leaning over. We had Manu Raju from CNN

2221
01:56:37,600 --> 01:56:42,480
Speaker 4: answer the question that everybody's wondering, which is how did

2222
01:56:42,520 --> 01:56:44,839
Speaker 4: he not go to the bathroom for twenty five hours?

2223
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:50,160
Speaker 4: And according to Booker, this was not some secret diaper

2224
01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:53,600
Speaker 4: that he brought onto the floor that he stopped eating

2225
01:56:53,880 --> 01:56:59,120
Speaker 4: on Friday, and he stopped drinking about, you know, twelve

2226
01:56:59,160 --> 01:57:02,120
Speaker 4: to twenty four hours before going on to the floor,

2227
01:57:02,600 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 4: so he kind of emptied his body out ahead of time.

2228
01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:09,000
Speaker 4: So he went on there, which is you know, smart

2229
01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:11,720
Speaker 4: for those for the purpose of not having to other bathroom.

2230
01:57:12,240 --> 01:57:14,520
Speaker 1: It would also make the.

2231
01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:18,960
Speaker 4: Stamina much more difficult, you know, to be able to

2232
01:57:19,000 --> 01:57:20,320
Speaker 4: stand there for twenty five hours.

2233
01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:22,520
Speaker 1: How long how long a speech you think you would

2234
01:57:22,520 --> 01:57:24,440
Speaker 1: give on the on the Senate floor.

2235
01:57:26,360 --> 01:57:29,520
Speaker 5: I mean, this is an impossible question because I would

2236
01:57:29,600 --> 01:57:31,400
Speaker 5: never want to be giving a speech on the Senate floor.

2237
01:57:31,400 --> 01:57:35,879
Speaker 6: What's your answer, right, I don't.

2238
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:39,000
Speaker 4: Oh, man, I think it'd be pretty hard to go

2239
01:57:39,120 --> 01:57:42,120
Speaker 4: twenty five hours like That's I don't think I could

2240
01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:43,080
Speaker 4: get anywhere near that.

2241
01:57:43,880 --> 01:57:45,520
Speaker 6: And yet at the same time, I know.

2242
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:46,320
Speaker 1: What I have to say.

2243
01:57:47,000 --> 01:57:48,440
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I've got maybe a half an

2244
01:57:48,480 --> 01:57:50,120
Speaker 4: hour stuff to say.

2245
01:57:50,240 --> 01:57:52,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well you can always read green eggs and

2246
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:54,000
Speaker 5: ham over and over again.

2247
01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how many. I

2248
01:57:57,040 --> 01:57:58,800
Speaker 1: guess I could do a few hours. I don't know.

2249
01:58:00,320 --> 01:58:02,280
Speaker 6: Impressive, It's definitely.

2250
01:58:01,920 --> 01:58:03,440
Speaker 1: We should do it. We should do a show where

2251
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:05,080
Speaker 1: we just just go.

2252
01:58:06,520 --> 01:58:10,400
Speaker 5: Actually we could probably first losing money off that. We

2253
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:15,200
Speaker 5: probably make money off that. Well, Brian, should we move

2254
01:58:15,200 --> 01:58:17,960
Speaker 5: on to the front of the show. Jefferson Morley's testimony

2255
01:58:19,520 --> 01:58:23,480
Speaker 5: at the John F. Kennedy assassination hearing yesterday, And just

2256
01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:25,720
Speaker 5: as we move into this block, I want to give

2257
01:58:25,760 --> 01:58:28,200
Speaker 5: a tip of the hat to Ryan and Sager, who

2258
01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:32,240
Speaker 5: Jefferson Morley the premiere JFK researcher was very impressed with

2259
01:58:32,320 --> 01:58:36,360
Speaker 5: after his interview last week, which was really widely circulated,

2260
01:58:36,560 --> 01:58:39,680
Speaker 5: and Morley left that saying it was he'd done tons

2261
01:58:39,680 --> 01:58:42,720
Speaker 5: of interviews in recent days and he thought that one

2262
01:58:42,760 --> 01:58:45,640
Speaker 5: really was the best, and I couldn't agree more.

2263
01:58:45,720 --> 01:58:46,520
Speaker 6: So well done.

2264
01:58:46,840 --> 01:58:48,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, people go back and watch that.

2265
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:51,320
Speaker 4: It's like a twenty minute interview, and I think it'll

2266
01:58:51,320 --> 01:58:53,680
Speaker 4: get you pretty up to speed.

2267
01:58:53,480 --> 01:58:54,520
Speaker 1: On the situation.

2268
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 4: I feel like nobody on the committee watched that interview,

2269
01:58:58,720 --> 01:59:00,880
Speaker 4: or read any of the documents or has any idea

2270
01:59:00,920 --> 01:59:05,280
Speaker 4: what they're talking about. Let's roll through a bunch of

2271
01:59:05,280 --> 01:59:09,920
Speaker 4: these clips from this super embarrassing hearing as quickly as

2272
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:10,160
Speaker 4: we can.

2273
01:59:10,280 --> 01:59:12,200
Speaker 1: So here's Jeff Morley.

2274
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:16,360
Speaker 19: It's an honor to testify before you. It's a solemn

2275
01:59:16,360 --> 01:59:20,520
Speaker 19: responsibility to report on the disturbing new revelations that have

2276
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:26,600
Speaker 19: emerged from the newest JFK files. And it is a

2277
01:59:26,640 --> 01:59:30,360
Speaker 19: grave matter to assert that CIA officers were culpable or

2278
01:59:30,400 --> 01:59:33,280
Speaker 19: complicit in the death of a president. So I want

2279
01:59:33,320 --> 01:59:36,160
Speaker 19: fact checkers to have all the evidence that I'm used

2280
01:59:36,360 --> 01:59:40,240
Speaker 19: to support my testimony. Today, the new fact pattern leads

2281
01:59:40,280 --> 01:59:44,280
Speaker 19: to a new conclusion. We know now what they knew

2282
01:59:44,280 --> 01:59:48,960
Speaker 19: about Oswald and when they knew it. We know now

2283
01:59:49,440 --> 01:59:53,440
Speaker 19: that Richard helms, James Angleton, and George Joannidi's were responsible

2284
01:59:53,480 --> 01:59:57,360
Speaker 19: for or complicit in the death of the president, either

2285
01:59:57,400 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 19: by criminal negligence or covert act. My recommendations to the

2286
02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:06,040
Speaker 19: task force are one, secure and release the personnel file

2287
02:00:06,120 --> 02:00:10,200
Speaker 19: of George Johanned's and two ask the CIA to provide

2288
02:00:10,200 --> 02:00:14,640
Speaker 19: a public statement answering the question why did these three

2289
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:19,879
Speaker 19: men lie to JFK investigators. The answers will help fulfill

2290
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:23,760
Speaker 19: the task force goal, the President's goal and the people's

2291
02:00:23,800 --> 02:00:27,600
Speaker 19: goal of full and complete JFK disclosure.

2292
02:00:27,960 --> 02:00:29,920
Speaker 4: And what he means by criminal negligence there and he

2293
02:00:30,160 --> 02:00:33,560
Speaker 4: expounds this in his interview with US, is that Angleton

2294
02:00:33,600 --> 02:00:38,960
Speaker 4: was getting regular updates based on their surveillance of Oswald

2295
02:00:39,560 --> 02:00:42,520
Speaker 4: and still somehow let the guy kill Kennedy.

2296
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 1: Let's roll one more clip from Morley here.

2297
02:00:44,760 --> 02:00:50,600
Speaker 20: You actually had written an article specifically addressing a whistleblower

2298
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:55,480
Speaker 20: that had reports at the CIA potentially showing information that

2299
02:00:55,520 --> 02:00:56,680
Speaker 20: Oswald was in Mexico City.

2300
02:00:56,680 --> 02:00:57,640
Speaker 1: Can you speak more to that.

2301
02:00:59,040 --> 02:01:00,880
Speaker 19: I was approached a few years ago by a man

2302
02:01:00,920 --> 02:01:03,400
Speaker 19: who had worked inside the CIA, had a very high

2303
02:01:03,400 --> 02:01:07,040
Speaker 19: security clearance, and in twenty eighteen he came to me

2304
02:01:07,080 --> 02:01:09,240
Speaker 19: and said he was concerned that there was a JFK

2305
02:01:09,360 --> 02:01:10,960
Speaker 19: assassination document.

2306
02:01:10,600 --> 02:01:13,200
Speaker 1: That he had read while he was working.

2307
02:01:12,840 --> 02:01:15,200
Speaker 19: At the CIA, and he was afraid that it would

2308
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:19,120
Speaker 19: never become public. The man was taken considerable legal risk

2309
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:22,320
Speaker 19: by talking to me. He was talking about classified or

2310
02:01:22,360 --> 02:01:26,920
Speaker 19: potentially classified information. So I published his story last year

2311
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:30,720
Speaker 19: without his name, which is not something that I usually do.

2312
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:33,600
Speaker 19: I don't like stories with anonymous sources. But I felt

2313
02:01:33,640 --> 02:01:35,840
Speaker 19: that it was important to get out, and he felt

2314
02:01:35,880 --> 02:01:38,800
Speaker 19: it was important too. I have spoken with him and

2315
02:01:38,840 --> 02:01:41,400
Speaker 19: he says he is willing to come public and tell

2316
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:44,000
Speaker 19: his name under his own story, with assurances that he

2317
02:01:44,040 --> 02:01:47,600
Speaker 19: will not face legal retaliation. I hope that's something that

2318
02:01:47,600 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 19: can be arranged in the near future.

2319
02:01:49,880 --> 02:01:52,520
Speaker 1: That is something that we will definitely follow up on.

2320
02:01:52,600 --> 02:01:55,320
Speaker 4: Let's play a one more Morley clip and then move

2321
02:01:55,360 --> 02:01:57,080
Speaker 4: to some of the some of their reaction.

2322
02:01:57,440 --> 02:02:00,160
Speaker 20: So who do you think fired the shot?

2323
02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:01,960
Speaker 6: You don't know, but you don't believe it was Lee

2324
02:02:01,960 --> 02:02:02,919
Speaker 6: Harvey Oswald.

2325
02:02:03,440 --> 02:02:06,400
Speaker 19: Oswald was not the intellectual author of Kennedy's death, even

2326
02:02:06,400 --> 02:02:07,240
Speaker 19: if he fired a gun.

2327
02:02:07,240 --> 02:02:09,480
Speaker 6: That who do you think was the intellectual author of

2328
02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:10,200
Speaker 6: Kennedy's death?

2329
02:02:11,680 --> 02:02:14,680
Speaker 19: Kennedy's enemies high in his own government is as specific

2330
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:17,600
Speaker 19: as I can be based on the available evidence, probably

2331
02:02:17,720 --> 02:02:19,160
Speaker 19: CIA and Pentagon.

2332
02:02:19,600 --> 02:02:23,600
Speaker 4: And now so here's Jasmine Crockett and Lauren Bobert. You

2333
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:27,160
Speaker 4: embarrass themselves in a different way. I think Crockett's is

2334
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:30,120
Speaker 4: more embarrassing for what it says about the Democratic Party

2335
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:35,280
Speaker 4: that it now feels itself to be in a genuine

2336
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:40,440
Speaker 4: coalition with the CIA, such that even when the CIA

2337
02:02:40,640 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 4: is being criticized for something that happens sixty plus years ago,

2338
02:02:46,760 --> 02:02:51,240
Speaker 4: they feel like they need to leap to the agency's defense.

2339
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:56,400
Speaker 4: It's absolutely mind boggling. But let's and then bow were

2340
02:02:56,520 --> 02:02:57,200
Speaker 4: just being dumb.

2341
02:02:57,400 --> 02:02:59,080
Speaker 6: Go ahead, I say, and vice versa.

2342
02:03:00,000 --> 02:03:02,520
Speaker 5: Republicans latching onto the CIA sind as the CIA became

2343
02:03:02,560 --> 02:03:04,360
Speaker 5: anti Republicans right now, right.

2344
02:03:04,280 --> 02:03:07,560
Speaker 4: Now, all of a sudden, Yeah, they're like, yeah, anyway,

2345
02:03:07,640 --> 02:03:08,760
Speaker 4: so yeah, let's so let's roll.

2346
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:13,600
Speaker 21: These previously classified JFK assassination files are now public and

2347
02:03:13,720 --> 02:03:17,280
Speaker 21: show no evidence of a CIA conspiracy. But what I

2348
02:03:17,400 --> 02:03:20,720
Speaker 21: find funny about this hearing is that the Republicans are

2349
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:26,120
Speaker 21: here relitigating whether CIA agents lied sixty years ago, but

2350
02:03:26,920 --> 02:03:30,640
Speaker 21: aren't doing anything about the CIA director lying to Congress

2351
02:03:30,680 --> 02:03:33,520
Speaker 21: just six days ago, we should be having a hearing

2352
02:03:33,560 --> 02:03:36,960
Speaker 21: on the fact that the unqualified Secretary of Defense and

2353
02:03:37,080 --> 02:03:42,080
Speaker 21: other senior Trump officials were carelessly discussing classified military plans

2354
02:03:42,400 --> 02:03:46,040
Speaker 21: over an unsecured signal group chat. And instead of providing

2355
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:51,280
Speaker 21: oversight over the administration's handling of classified information, the Republicans

2356
02:03:51,280 --> 02:03:53,800
Speaker 21: have spent a week trying to convince the American people

2357
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:56,720
Speaker 21: that the military plans were not classified. So instead of

2358
02:03:56,760 --> 02:04:00,520
Speaker 21: giving a platform to conspiracy theories, and let me be clear,

2359
02:04:01,080 --> 02:04:03,160
Speaker 21: there are holes. I don't want you all to think that.

2360
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:06,680
Speaker 21: I don't think that there are holes. But when we're

2361
02:04:06,720 --> 02:04:09,320
Speaker 21: looking back, we need to look back so that we

2362
02:04:09,360 --> 02:04:11,160
Speaker 21: can look forward and hopefully do better.

2363
02:04:11,320 --> 02:04:12,360
Speaker 22: You had something to add on that.

2364
02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:17,000
Speaker 19: I think you're confusing mister Oliver Stone with mister Rogers Stone.

2365
02:04:17,320 --> 02:04:22,040
Speaker 19: Yet sorry, it's Roger Stone who implicated LBJ in the

2366
02:04:22,040 --> 02:04:23,200
Speaker 19: Assassinators of the President.

2367
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:25,400
Speaker 22: It's not my friend that Oliver Stones were there. I

2368
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:29,000
Speaker 22: may have misinterpreted that, and I apologize for that. But

2369
02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:34,560
Speaker 22: there's seems to be some elluding of like you said, incompetence, got.

2370
02:04:34,400 --> 02:04:37,480
Speaker 4: A misinterpretation, and then she talks about incopetence right after that.

2371
02:04:38,480 --> 02:04:42,440
Speaker 5: But she was asking oliver Stone about his theory that

2372
02:04:42,640 --> 02:04:46,840
Speaker 5: LBJ had been behind the assassination, and Oliverston was confused

2373
02:04:46,920 --> 02:04:50,960
Speaker 5: because he was saying LBJ may have had knowledge of

2374
02:04:51,360 --> 02:04:53,960
Speaker 5: or complicity in the Warren Commission, adding Alan Dlles to

2375
02:04:54,000 --> 02:04:57,280
Speaker 5: the Warren Commission. But LBJ, He's like, I've never said that,

2376
02:04:57,400 --> 02:05:00,480
Speaker 5: And Jeff put the pieces together and said, oh, I

2377
02:05:00,480 --> 02:05:04,560
Speaker 5: think you're confusing him with Rogerstone, which is somewhat hilarious.

2378
02:05:04,600 --> 02:05:06,760
Speaker 5: And if you weren't watching, if you were just listening

2379
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:09,160
Speaker 5: to the clip of Jasmine Crockett, you could see Oliver

2380
02:05:09,200 --> 02:05:10,480
Speaker 5: Stone with his head.

2381
02:05:10,600 --> 02:05:11,920
Speaker 6: Carried in his hands.

2382
02:05:12,240 --> 02:05:16,240
Speaker 5: So she was doing this like brain dead analysis of

2383
02:05:16,600 --> 02:05:22,640
Speaker 5: like the signal chat being somehow relevant to even bring

2384
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:23,600
Speaker 5: up in this kind.

2385
02:05:23,680 --> 02:05:25,120
Speaker 6: I mean, it was just pathetic.

2386
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:27,200
Speaker 4: And what I want to know is who wrote that.

2387
02:05:27,400 --> 02:05:30,200
Speaker 4: Staffers write these questions almost all the time. What I

2388
02:05:30,200 --> 02:05:32,240
Speaker 4: want to know is who wrote that question? Was this

2389
02:05:32,280 --> 02:05:35,080
Speaker 4: a leadership staffer, this committee staffer?

2390
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:35,440
Speaker 12: Was this?

2391
02:05:36,280 --> 02:05:38,200
Speaker 4: I don't think it would be somebody from Crockett's office,

2392
02:05:38,200 --> 02:05:40,840
Speaker 4: because I think somebody from Crockett's office would have better

2393
02:05:40,880 --> 02:05:45,200
Speaker 4: political instincts than that. And In fact, what's so revealing

2394
02:05:45,240 --> 02:05:48,960
Speaker 4: about that clip is that you can see tell me

2395
02:05:49,000 --> 02:05:51,760
Speaker 4: if I'm analyzing this wrong. You can see Crockett's own

2396
02:05:51,800 --> 02:05:55,320
Speaker 4: political instincts kick in as she's getting to the end

2397
02:05:55,360 --> 02:05:59,000
Speaker 4: of her own question, where she's like, oh my god,

2398
02:05:59,320 --> 02:06:04,840
Speaker 4: I just called these folks at this hearing conspiracy theorists

2399
02:06:04,880 --> 02:06:09,240
Speaker 4: talking about the Kennedy assassination when everyone in this country

2400
02:06:09,560 --> 02:06:13,680
Speaker 4: believes that a conspiracy was behind. People have different theories

2401
02:06:13,720 --> 02:06:17,240
Speaker 4: about which conspiracy, but everyone thinks that some type of

2402
02:06:17,240 --> 02:06:20,920
Speaker 4: conspiracy was involved in killing Kennedy. And I just mocked

2403
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:27,720
Speaker 4: that because Democrats are just so ready to instantly shoot

2404
02:06:27,760 --> 02:06:31,480
Speaker 4: first at any conspiracy and then ask questions later about

2405
02:06:31,480 --> 02:06:32,160
Speaker 4: whether or not it's true.

2406
02:06:32,440 --> 02:06:33,960
Speaker 1: In her and you can see her mind where she's like,

2407
02:06:33,960 --> 02:06:35,760
Speaker 1: oh god, that was stupid. And so then she.

2408
02:06:36,680 --> 02:06:40,080
Speaker 4: Puts the question down that was written for her and says,

2409
02:06:40,120 --> 02:06:40,680
Speaker 4: not that I'm.

2410
02:06:40,520 --> 02:06:43,720
Speaker 1: Staying there are holes, there are holes. There are definitely holes.

2411
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,880
Speaker 4: So and she even she used the word platform, which

2412
02:06:46,920 --> 02:06:50,040
Speaker 4: is like a classic kind of you know, mid twenty

2413
02:06:50,120 --> 02:06:54,800
Speaker 4: tens democratic phrase, we're here platforming conspiracy theorists, And that's

2414
02:06:54,800 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 4: when her mind was like, did I just say we're

2415
02:06:56,880 --> 02:07:01,880
Speaker 4: platforming conspiracy theorists in relation to the literal one conspiracy

2416
02:07:02,120 --> 02:07:06,720
Speaker 4: that everyone in America believes should be platformed and talking

2417
02:07:06,720 --> 02:07:09,320
Speaker 4: to like and say what you want about Oliver Stone.

2418
02:07:09,320 --> 02:07:10,560
Speaker 1: He's fascinating.

2419
02:07:10,600 --> 02:07:10,760
Speaker 9: Guy.

2420
02:07:10,880 --> 02:07:14,360
Speaker 4: Jefferson Morley is a very very sober journalist who's who's

2421
02:07:14,360 --> 02:07:17,680
Speaker 4: covering this, and he's not going to stay more than then.

2422
02:07:17,720 --> 02:07:22,320
Speaker 4: The fact pattern will allow him to, and the documents

2423
02:07:22,320 --> 02:07:25,600
Speaker 4: and almost exclusively on the record sources will allow him to.

2424
02:07:26,640 --> 02:07:28,160
Speaker 1: But she seemed to catch herself.

2425
02:07:28,320 --> 02:07:32,200
Speaker 4: But to me, the whole thing was revealing of how

2426
02:07:32,920 --> 02:07:36,760
Speaker 4: how woven now the Democratic Party is to the CIA

2427
02:07:36,880 --> 02:07:38,480
Speaker 4: and the deep State that.

2428
02:07:38,640 --> 02:07:41,560
Speaker 1: They feel like they even need to defend Alan Dulles.

2429
02:07:42,120 --> 02:07:46,320
Speaker 6: Right, who Democrats for Dulles, who like.

2430
02:07:46,280 --> 02:07:49,080
Speaker 4: If they exhumed him, he'd like put them in the

2431
02:07:49,120 --> 02:07:50,680
Speaker 4: grave if he had a chance.

2432
02:07:50,960 --> 02:07:52,680
Speaker 6: Yes he would. He would deport all.

2433
02:07:52,560 --> 02:07:59,000
Speaker 5: Of the students, Yes would, And so would his brother.

2434
02:07:59,160 --> 02:08:01,640
Speaker 1: At Angleton, who was like the you know, handling the

2435
02:08:01,720 --> 02:08:02,280
Speaker 1: Israel file.

2436
02:08:03,080 --> 02:08:07,240
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, if Jasmine Crockett's political instincts were.

2437
02:08:07,080 --> 02:08:09,680
Speaker 5: Truly legendary, she would have known that this hearing was

2438
02:08:09,680 --> 02:08:12,400
Speaker 5: coming up, and Democrats in general would be trying to

2439
02:08:12,480 --> 02:08:16,360
Speaker 5: take this issue off the table for Republicans. I mean,

2440
02:08:16,400 --> 02:08:19,000
Speaker 5: it was Republicans for a very long time who were

2441
02:08:19,080 --> 02:08:22,400
Speaker 5: on the wrong side of this, and for Democrats, they

2442
02:08:22,440 --> 02:08:24,960
Speaker 5: could be out there saying Democrats have a long proud

2443
02:08:25,080 --> 02:08:27,400
Speaker 5: history of trying to shed light on what happened to

2444
02:08:27,440 --> 02:08:32,640
Speaker 5: this democratic president, a Democratic standard bearer, and we absolutely

2445
02:08:32,640 --> 02:08:35,920
Speaker 5: are just as eager as are Republican counterpoints at counterparts,

2446
02:08:36,360 --> 02:08:38,920
Speaker 5: if not more eager to get to the bottom of

2447
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:42,919
Speaker 5: it and ask really smart, insightful, savvy questions.

2448
02:08:43,000 --> 02:08:44,760
Speaker 6: But they did not do that yesterday.

2449
02:08:44,800 --> 02:08:47,080
Speaker 5: They used it as a sort of culture war platform

2450
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:51,840
Speaker 5: to go after Signal, to go after Signal Gate, and

2451
02:08:52,280 --> 02:08:57,440
Speaker 5: align themselves with the actual like Deep States CIA intelligence apparatus.

2452
02:08:57,440 --> 02:09:00,640
Speaker 5: It was really unfortunate, although I think, and one of

2453
02:09:00,680 --> 02:09:03,320
Speaker 5: the reasons I was excited for this hearing is that

2454
02:09:03,880 --> 02:09:07,280
Speaker 5: Morley and Oliver Stone have had a couple of weeks

2455
02:09:07,320 --> 02:09:12,040
Speaker 5: to digest this insane volume of new information, which is

2456
02:09:12,120 --> 02:09:14,840
Speaker 5: I mean, it's going to take very long time to

2457
02:09:14,880 --> 02:09:17,360
Speaker 5: put all of these puzzle pieces together, but they've done

2458
02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:19,720
Speaker 5: the Lord's work. Morally, has done the Lord's work trying

2459
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:24,320
Speaker 5: to piece this puzzle together quickly, and his voluminous knowledge

2460
02:09:24,520 --> 02:09:26,680
Speaker 5: of the case has allowed him to do that. So

2461
02:09:27,120 --> 02:09:31,080
Speaker 5: all of that said, to see these things being aired

2462
02:09:31,680 --> 02:09:35,120
Speaker 5: in the halls of Congress, I still thought was really powerful.

2463
02:09:35,160 --> 02:09:38,160
Speaker 5: I mean, we have Twitter now and we've seen some

2464
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:41,280
Speaker 5: of this play out in real time. But Oliver Stone's

2465
02:09:41,360 --> 02:09:44,960
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety two congressional testimony was critical. I mean, it

2466
02:09:44,960 --> 02:09:47,480
Speaker 5: took a long time for the country to catch up,

2467
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:51,440
Speaker 5: but looking back, it proved to be a really important

2468
02:09:51,440 --> 02:09:54,840
Speaker 5: point because there was legislation that came out of Congress

2469
02:09:55,280 --> 02:09:57,800
Speaker 5: that led to declassifications, and.

2470
02:09:58,560 --> 02:10:00,760
Speaker 6: So I thought that that was really important.

2471
02:10:01,040 --> 02:10:01,400
Speaker 1: Ye it was.

2472
02:10:01,440 --> 02:10:05,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, So his movie on Kennedy, Oliver Stones movie on

2473
02:10:05,160 --> 02:10:10,840
Speaker 4: JFKU basically produced the legislation that produced the records that

2474
02:10:10,880 --> 02:10:14,200
Speaker 4: we got just recently and that we've been getting over

2475
02:10:14,240 --> 02:10:17,080
Speaker 4: the last decades. So yeah, that is kind of a

2476
02:10:17,080 --> 02:10:19,640
Speaker 4: fascinating arc to see. And the last point on this is,

2477
02:10:19,680 --> 02:10:23,240
Speaker 4: like democrats may not understand why I'm harping on this,

2478
02:10:23,400 --> 02:10:28,160
Speaker 4: Like people who don't follow politics closely create heuristics about

2479
02:10:28,400 --> 02:10:30,120
Speaker 4: who's with them and who's against them, and who is

2480
02:10:30,200 --> 02:10:33,520
Speaker 4: right and who's wrong about particular issues. So like the

2481
02:10:33,800 --> 02:10:36,360
Speaker 4: a proxy for a lot of people would be are

2482
02:10:36,360 --> 02:10:39,880
Speaker 4: they credible? Are they are they open minded about the

2483
02:10:39,960 --> 02:10:43,720
Speaker 4: Kennedy assassination? Then they don't have to necessarily agree exactly

2484
02:10:43,720 --> 02:10:46,040
Speaker 4: with what you think on it, but like or are

2485
02:10:46,080 --> 02:10:49,640
Speaker 4: you just lying and mocking anybody who believes in a

2486
02:10:49,640 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 4: conspiracy theory. So if people who don't follow Publicis closely

2487
02:10:53,360 --> 02:10:57,280
Speaker 4: see these clips circulating online of Democrats making fun of

2488
02:10:57,320 --> 02:11:01,880
Speaker 4: anybody who thinks there was a conspeak behind the Kennedy assassination,

2489
02:11:02,880 --> 02:11:06,200
Speaker 4: they're going to just reject and dismiss anything else they

2490
02:11:06,200 --> 02:11:09,839
Speaker 4: hear from those Democrats because that's and that's rational.

2491
02:11:09,880 --> 02:11:11,440
Speaker 1: That's a rational approach.

2492
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:13,960
Speaker 4: When you have a limited amount of time to invest

2493
02:11:14,600 --> 02:11:18,360
Speaker 4: in and analyzing the political situations like, oh, these people

2494
02:11:18,400 --> 02:11:23,120
Speaker 4: are liars or stupid like one or the other. Either way,

2495
02:11:23,360 --> 02:11:25,080
Speaker 4: I don't want to hear anything else from them. So

2496
02:11:27,040 --> 02:11:33,120
Speaker 4: not helping themselves with regular people by by this performance needlessly.

2497
02:11:33,200 --> 02:11:35,320
Speaker 6: So it's just so easy for Democrats to.

2498
02:11:35,800 --> 02:11:38,560
Speaker 1: Don't be afraid of Allen Dallas anymore. He's gone, it's crazy,

2499
02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:39,240
Speaker 1: he's gone.

2500
02:11:39,280 --> 02:11:39,760
Speaker 6: No reason.

2501
02:11:39,880 --> 02:11:42,760
Speaker 5: I mean, maybe it right, Maybe there is something substantive

2502
02:11:42,800 --> 02:11:47,280
Speaker 5: about their ties now to CIA world and Intel world,

2503
02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:50,560
Speaker 5: meaning that they don't think the sort of cost benefit

2504
02:11:52,720 --> 02:11:55,760
Speaker 5: makes sense for them to start going in on the CIA,

2505
02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:58,680
Speaker 5: because the CIA still obviously does not want a lot

2506
02:11:58,680 --> 02:12:01,560
Speaker 5: of these pieces to be put together. It doesn't want

2507
02:12:01,600 --> 02:12:04,480
Speaker 5: to see the puzzle come together. So maybe this is

2508
02:12:04,600 --> 02:12:07,520
Speaker 5: actually not just politics.

2509
02:12:07,800 --> 02:12:12,720
Speaker 4: But yeah, anyway, I hope you had a good time

2510
02:12:12,760 --> 02:12:14,960
Speaker 4: in Wisconsin. Thank you for joining us from all the

2511
02:12:14,960 --> 02:12:19,120
Speaker 4: way out there. Very much appreciated. See you back here.

2512
02:12:19,320 --> 02:12:21,800
Speaker 4: We'll do a Friday show again. You'll be back in

2513
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:23,320
Speaker 4: here DC, I assume for that.

2514
02:12:24,240 --> 02:12:27,360
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, absolutely looking forward to it. We look forward

2515
02:12:27,360 --> 02:12:30,520
Speaker 5: to those Friday shows a lot now, and I hope

2516
02:12:30,520 --> 02:12:31,120
Speaker 5: you guys do too.

2517
02:12:31,160 --> 02:12:31,920
Speaker 6: There are a lot of fun.

2518
02:12:32,360 --> 02:12:34,880
Speaker 5: Just as a reminder of Breakingpoints dot com to now

2519
02:12:34,920 --> 02:12:39,680
Speaker 5: a premium membership, premium subscription. Appreciate everyone tuning in. Thanks

2520
02:12:39,760 --> 02:12:40,800
Speaker 5: for letting me.

2521
02:12:40,960 --> 02:12:41,440
Speaker 6: Zoom in here.

2522
02:12:41,520 --> 02:12:56,040
Speaker 1: Ryan all right, and we'll see you on Friday.