1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. Yeah, my name is Julie Douglas. Julie. 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: We are always discussing outrageous natural experiences, natural experiences that 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: can color the mind with the feelings of the paranormal. 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: The ultimate in all of these experiences is the one 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: that we've spend a great deal of time thinking about 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: his death. My dad always said, everybody does it, so 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: they couldn't be that much to it. But and to 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: a certain extent, that's that's true. There. It's one of 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: the few things that is certain in any life until 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: we reach some point where we're actually able to cheat 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: death entirely. We're all going to go through this at 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: some point or what it depends how you look at it, 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: either go through or in there. And we have devoted 16 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: just countless centuries, just as long as humans have been 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: able to comprehend and ruminate on their more reality, we've 18 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: been trying to figure out how this works and how 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: best to prepare for death, or you know, we have 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: tried to divert our attention away from it. Right, And 21 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: when I think about diversions. One of the things that 22 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: comes to mind is altering our minds right in the 23 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: form of drugs. Well, that's that's one certainly one of 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: the major interpretations of the use of things like psychedelics, 25 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: And that's something we're gonna discuss here, because on one hand, 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: there is definitely the heavy recreational view of psychedelic substances 27 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, the culture genre culture, the idea of 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: just hippies staring dreamily into the sky. Or if you 29 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: go to a concert and you see some young person 30 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: with giant eyes staring at their hands the entire time, right, 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: and then you may say, well, this person is clearly 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: not getting anything out of this experience. This is just 33 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: clearly an escapist experience that they're enjoying. But then the 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: other side of psychedelic experience is rich history that we 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: see in various cultures, the use of them as a 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: ceremonial tool, as a religious tool to have some sort 37 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: of heightened experience that will gain supposed insight into what 38 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: life means, what death means, and all these questions. And 39 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: then there's science, right, and then there is science, yes, 40 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: And so what we're talking about here is the intersection 41 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: of I guess what you could say, hallucinogenic medicine and 42 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: the idea of end of life care. Recently, there was 43 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: an article in The New York Times about this, a 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: really great article called how psychedelic drugs can help patients 45 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: Face Death. And we're going to talk about this, but 46 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: before we talk about that, we should probably talk about 47 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: other therapeutic uses for hallucinogens. Now, I have never founded 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: the doctor and had hallucinogenic prescribed to me, so in 49 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: what cases this is not something that is actually going 50 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: to show up at your local drug store. But there 51 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: have been a number of experiments, a number of clinical 52 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: studies to see what uses they may have, because clearly 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: they have a powerful effect on our mind and the 54 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: way the mind works, and that's at the root of everything. So, 55 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: needless to say, doctors have looked at that and said, well, 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: there's got to be something here. Perhaps there's something here 57 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: that we can utilize to treat other conditions. Yeah, they 58 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: have actually found that ecstasy or m D m A 59 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: as it's known, and we'll talk about a little bit 60 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: more for their is an effective treatment for severe PTSD. 61 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: They're also studies of people with cluster headaches who took 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: LSD and reported their symptoms were greatly diminished, and psychedelics 63 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: have been used for alcoholism and other addictions. Now, a 64 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: lot of this has been off the radar because obviously 65 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: illegal drugs are sort of persona non grata here in 66 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 1: the United States, so it's been very hard for scientists 67 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: to be able to research these without a lot of 68 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: different constraints. So recently, the last thirty forty years, people 69 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: have been giving a little bit more scientific heft to 70 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: this idea that we can use these drugs as therapy. 71 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: So we inevitably have to turn to the character of 72 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: Timothy Learry here, who I don't know. Do you watch 73 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: the TV show Madman, Well, yeah, I've caught it before, 74 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: and I understand that this week there was a foray 75 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 1: into LSD, right, and Timothy Leary shows up, well, okay, 76 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: alright in the show. Obviously, he actually entered the Great 77 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: Void himself in the late nineties. But we're talking about 78 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: a psychologist, a writer, and one of psychedelic drugs most 79 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: ardent supporters. He conducted experiments at Harvard University with something 80 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: called Pilo sybin And we'll talk a little bit more 81 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: about that, and I'm sure you've heard the phrase turn on, 82 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: tune in, and drop out. That's a guy who uttered it. 83 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: There's also an album by that name. It's like a 84 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: spoken word like psychedelic guidance album. It's actually pretty cool 85 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: worth checking out if you're into that kind of music. 86 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: It's been copiously sampled over the years. Learry is a 87 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: very interesting character. Obviously an educated man, an expert in 88 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: his field. Prior to his engagement with psychedelic substances, it 89 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: was around five and his wife committed suicide and left 90 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: him with a school age son and a school age daughter. 91 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: So he has this going on in his life. And 92 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: then at age thirty eight, he goes on this trip 93 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: to Spain. He suffers this mysterious illness and just without 94 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: the aid of any kind of drug or what have you, 95 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: he has this mind altering experience, this moment that he 96 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: claims really allowed him to sort of see through the 97 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: limitations of his perspectives of the world before then. And 98 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: it's in the years following that that he actually begins 99 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: experimenting with psychedelic substances. He begins to incorporate it into 100 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,119 Speaker 1: his work and explore the possibilities of it and things 101 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: as they tend to do. As we've discussed with good 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: old Lily the dolphins, right right right, when you bring 103 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: LSD into a study, especially back in these days, it 104 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,239 Speaker 1: has a tendency to sort of get out of control 105 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, there's a lot of things spiraling 106 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: out of control. Mainly this is because the researchers at 107 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: the time, especially John C. Lily right with the dolphins, 108 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: are taking the LSD. So this made me changing their 109 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: perspective a little bit. And certainly it is darkening the 110 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: doors depths of science in a way that feels like 111 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: this drug is not being given sort of its due 112 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: diligence because it's now being associated with counter culture, especially 113 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: with Leary, because he really kind of took it up, 114 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: became a celebrity, and you know, there are a lot 115 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: of drug raids. Jordan Lyddy arrested him. Did he one 116 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: of the raids that I did not know that? The 117 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: Concord prison experiment was one of the big ones with him. Yeah. 118 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: But but there's this other part of Leary that is 119 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: really trying to look at this diligently and try to 120 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: really apply scientific method to this. But then he's got 121 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: all the craziness of the other part of his life, 122 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: that sort of I would say, putting a dark cloud 123 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: over his efforts well. And also he just becomes increasingly 124 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: less academic and more spiritual as the day's progress and 125 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: his the years progress. In his later life, he's making 126 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: the rounds, he's giving speeches, but he's more concerned with 127 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: the evolution of human consciousness. And he was a big 128 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: advocate of cybernetics. He really thought cybernetics, right, we're going 129 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: to be the key to our future, and reallys he's 130 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: right on U. I guess what we should talk about 131 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: is the Concord prison experiment because that's where you can 132 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: see his bias really seeping in. Right. They're testing psychedelic substances. Specifically, 133 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: they're testing psilocybin on the group of thirty two prisoners 134 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: to see if they can adjust their recidivism rates. Right, 135 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: So recidivism rate is that the person is going to 136 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: be laid out of jail and then they will do 137 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: something else which will land them back into jail. And 138 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: as we know, the recivism rate has always been historically high, 139 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: like at this point in this study, it was recidivism rate. Yeah, 140 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: so he's interested. Can you Basically the question here is 141 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: by applying these psychedelic substances to these prisoners, can you 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: change them? Can you make them a less violent person? 143 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: Person it's less likely to engage in criminal behavior. I mean, 144 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: you're talking about taking somebody who is a prisoner, a 145 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: person with a criminal path and is statistically likely to 146 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: engage in crime. Again, right, and Key reports that it 147 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: definitely helps them, that they become less antisocial, etcetera. But 148 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is it did not really 149 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: affect the prisoners at all. That rate of recidivism was 150 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: the same, although he claimed that there was a reduction. Yeah, 151 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: there was a little squeaking of the The interpretation of 152 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: the data in the study was made to lean more 153 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: in favor of the findings. Again, he saw himself in 154 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: a very specific way that clouded his judgment. I think 155 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: here's a great quote. He says, we saw ourselves as 156 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: anthropologists from the twenty first century, inhabiting a time module 157 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: set somewhere in the dark ages of the nineteen sixties, 158 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: on this space colony. We were attempting to create a 159 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: new paganism and a new dedication to life as art 160 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: and that's from the study itself. No, no, that's him 161 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: as a general No, no, that's sort of one of 162 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: his general mission statements. But I think it gives a 163 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: good idea of why he might have gone off the 164 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: path of scientific method there. Okay, so we we mentioned 165 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: this guy. We mentioned Leary because he kind of helped 166 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: to put the kaibash on funding for hallucinogens because obviously 167 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: this guy all interwoven with counterculture. Nixon at one point 168 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: called him the most dangerous personal live. Yeah, clearly that 169 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: was the case. Funding dried up. We didn't really get 170 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: to have a good chance to study the effects of 171 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: hallucinogens as a therapy, as a motive therapy. So let's 172 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: talk about some of the drugs that are now currently 173 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: being researched. And let's also talk about this guy named 174 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: Stanislav Groff, because he's really important and that he I 175 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: think was taking up where literally left off in terms 176 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: of sort of falling off the map of the scientific method. Okay, Well, 177 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: first of all, we have psilocybin, and this is the 178 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: hallucinogen acceubstance that is obtained from certain types of mushrooms 179 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: that are indigenous to tropical and subtropical regions of South America, Mexico, 180 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: in the United States, in the sort of Georgia, Tennessee 181 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: area where I grew up, this is mostly known as 182 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: something that would grow on cow patties in pastors, I 183 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: have to say, like a lot of teenagers hanging out 184 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: in the dark, Yeah, trying to steal cow pies and 185 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: see what they can harvest from them. So these are 186 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: naturally occurring substances. Then you have in d m A, 187 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: which is synthetic. Okay, this is a psychoactive drug, and 188 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: it's chemically similar to methamphetamine and hallucinogenic mescaline, and it 189 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: produces feelings of increased energy, euphoria, emotional warmth and distortions 190 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: and time perception and tactile experiences. The last three of 191 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: those also apply to the psilocybin right rights say, and 192 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: they they are helpful in reducing anxiety and enhancing self 193 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: awareness as well as empathy, which is really important, it 194 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: turns out when you are dealing with end of life care. 195 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,599 Speaker 1: So this guy, Stanisloft Graff, much of today's research is 196 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: actually predicated on some of his work with psychedelic medicine 197 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: in the early sixties, he began giving the drug psilocybin 198 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: to cancer patients at the Spring Grove State Hospital near 199 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: Baltimore and documenting their effects, and he described cancer patients 200 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: who were completely clenched with fear, who under the influences 201 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: of l s D or DPT, experienced relief from the 202 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: terror of dying. That is really important because this, again 203 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: is where our current researchers are licking, you know, at 204 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: in the past. They're not looking at Leary, but they're 205 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: looking at this guy to say, maybe there is something 206 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: to this, Maybe there is a different way that we 207 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: can approach end of life care. Because it's one thing 208 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: to say that, you know, we all are going to 209 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: die at one point, but it is certainly another thing 210 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: to say, you know what, you have six months to 211 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: eighteen months to live. So that's an entirely different situation. 212 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna take a break and when we 213 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about how these drugs 214 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: could be very beneficial. And we're back. So, if one 215 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: is staring down death, and one knows that it is 216 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: imminent sometime in the next few months, the next few years, 217 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: how can substances such as m d M A and 218 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: psilocybin actually aid the patient and sort of smooth the 219 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: transition in to death. Okay, Well, there are a couple 220 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: of people that in the York Times article they focused on, 221 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: and in fact there's a documentary out there too that 222 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: talks about this guy named Charles Grobe and Pam Secuda, 223 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: who is the patient that the article and some of 224 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: his studies center around. Pam Secuda, fifty five years old. 225 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: She learns, or she learned, I should say, that she 226 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: had stage four a metastatic cancer. She was then given 227 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: six to twelve months to live, and she actually ended 228 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: up living four years. But about two years into it, 229 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: she sought out help for the anxiety and depression that 230 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: accompanied her feeling, her constant feeling that the other shoe 231 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: was about to drop. So she found out about the 232 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: study being conducted by Charles Grobe. He's a psychiatrist and 233 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: a researcher at Harbor Harbor u c L, a medical 234 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: center who at the time is giving solicibon to end 235 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: stage cancer patients to see if it would allay their fears. 236 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: She was given psychological tests who established that she was 237 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: psychologically sound, but also another test to to kind of 238 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: see what her level of depression and anxiety was, and 239 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: she was given a placebo during one session, and in 240 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: the second session she was giving the psilocybin. Now, that 241 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: session lasted for about six hours. She wore headphones that 242 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: piped in different music and nature sounds, and she also 243 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: had black eye shades on and that was meant to 244 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: encourage her to look inward. And I mentioned all of 245 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: this because in a little while we'll talk about how 246 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: this setting is really important. At the four hour point, 247 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: she began to cry because she started to really empathize 248 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: with her husband but what his feelings would be when 249 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: she passed on. And then she says that she released 250 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: all of this well of emotion and all of this 251 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: energy that she had been putting towards her situation, and 252 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: she began to look at it completely differently. And she 253 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: came out of that session really feeling like she could 254 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: approach death in a positive light, which is amazing. And 255 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: her husband even says that she had a completely remarkable 256 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: change in her demeanor because I remember that she's been 257 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: living with this condition for two years now and again, 258 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: feeling like that other she was going to drop in 259 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: this one session completely changed her perspective, and a huge 260 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: component of it seems to be her ability to empathize 261 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: more with her husband and what he's experiencing and sort 262 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: of see the situation outside of herself right which she 263 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: saw is very specifically, she saw that she was robbing 264 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: her present with these thoughts of the future. When you 265 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: can say that we all do that on some level 266 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: during the day, Oh yeah, I mean it comes back 267 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: right back around to some of the things that we've 268 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: been saying and things that have been said in Buddhist 269 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: philosophy for for ages, and the idea that so much 270 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: of our suffering is tied to worrying about the past 271 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: and fretting over the future and focusing on self, and 272 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: those are huge obstacles to overcome in the best of circumstances. 273 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: If you're facing the end of life, that they can 274 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: be even more insurmountable. What appears to be happening is 275 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: that we see that focus on self fade under the 276 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: substance as well as the worrying over the future, and 277 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: instead she's putting more focus on what is happening in 278 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: the present and what other people that are close to 279 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: her are feeling. Another good example that the article points 280 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: out as Laurie Reemer, a forty eight year old survivor 281 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: of adult onset leukemia, because she's surviving. She knows at 282 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: this point that she's in remission, but still her life 283 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: is going to be cut short. She knows she's got 284 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: like a decade or two decades remaining. Yeah, she said 285 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: that she was fine when she thought she was near death. 286 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: It was when she went into remission that she really 287 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: became obsessed with, Okay, well when is this going to happen, 288 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: and really having a lot of anxiety about it, intense 289 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: fear and anxiety around relapse in death. Maybe that's because 290 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: she had survived the first bout and so it felt 291 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are a lot of psychological factors that 292 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: made her feel like this, this may happen again, it 293 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: may not be so lucky. She participated in a study 294 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: at Johns Hopkins University where rolling Griffith's was administering silas 295 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: have been at a higher level than grobe was to 296 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: see if he could elicit any mystical insights to help 297 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: patients with their conditions, and Remer said when she underwent that, 298 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: she said that her mind became like a series of 299 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: rooms and she could go in and out of these 300 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: rooms with remarkable ease. In one room there was the 301 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: grief her father experienced when Remor got leukemia, and another 302 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: her mother's grief, and in another her children's and yet 303 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: another room was her father's perspective on raising her. She says, quote, 304 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: I was able to see things through his eyes, and 305 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: through my mother's eyes, and through my children's eyes. I 306 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: was able to see what it had been like for 307 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: them when I was so sick. And this is someone 308 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: who went into this as an agnostic. She came out 309 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: of it saying, I now have the distinct sense that 310 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: there's so much more, so many different states of being. 311 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: I have the sense that death is not the end, 312 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: but just part of a process, a way of moving 313 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: into a different sphere, a different way of being. That 314 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: in and of itself is pretty amazing that she had 315 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: that perspective change. But Griffith's, the person who administered the substance, 316 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: has said that for fourteen months after participating in a 317 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: solicitin study that was published in the Journal of psycho Pharmacology, 318 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: believes last year of subjects said that it was one 319 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: of the five most meaningful experiences of their lives and 320 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: thirty said it was the most meaningful experience. Yeah, so 321 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: it kind of makes me wonder, well, what exactly is 322 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: happening in the brain when this is going on, because 323 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: obviously this has a lot to do with how these 324 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: people are perceiving life now. Well, luckily, as we've discussed 325 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: another podcast, we are able to look inside the brain 326 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 1: and get an idea of what's going on. There's a 327 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: psychiatrist at Imperial College London by the name of David J. Nutt, 328 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: and Penis team used an m r I to scan 329 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: healthy volunteers dosed on psilocide and in order to capture 330 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: this transition from a normal, waking consciousness to the psychedelic state, 331 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: they found it during these states of quote unquote understrad 332 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: in consciousness that there was a deactivation of regions of 333 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: the brain that interface our senses and our perception of self, 334 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: which false ride in line with what we were talking 335 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: about with her description of the way it felt, and 336 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: with the idea that our obsession with self, our ego, 337 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: our need to place ourselves at the center of this 338 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: story are tied in with our suffering, especially as we 339 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: approached that. Yeah, and I did see that One of 340 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: the regions that was dimmed was the anterior singular cortex, 341 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: and we've actually talked about that quite a bit. I 342 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: think most recently we were talking about envy, and we 343 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: were talking about one study in which they saw that 344 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: people who were experiencing envy were actually what we were. 345 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: You were seeing these parts of the brain, the anterior 346 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: singular cortex where pain is processed, lighting up, so that 347 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: we know that this part of the brain perceives pain, 348 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: even if it's emotional pain, it's the same place that 349 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: also processes physical pain. So it's interesting to see that 350 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: that would go offline here as well. But another part 351 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: of is that is also very intriguing, and that researchers 352 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: wanted to try to get at, was why patients were 353 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: able to hold onto this feeling, this memory for so 354 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: long after having just one experience with these drugs. And 355 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: it turns out that encoding the experience is really really 356 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: important here, and that's what the researchers are doing. They're 357 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: following up with the patients for weeks and weeks afterward, 358 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: and they're dissecting what happened, and they're talking about the 359 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: memories and just like you would do that in would 360 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: say a trip that you took, um it begins to 361 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: really form these long term associations. So trip yes, yes, she, 362 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: I should say. Let's say you, yes, he took a 363 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: trip to Paris, and you kept talking about it with, say, 364 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: your significant other, and you've got the blueprint of that memory. 365 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: And the same thing is happening with with the the 366 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: psychological trip that these patients are taking. Really, the whole 367 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: experiment here reminds me a lot of travel and how 368 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: the memory is encoded. I think about any trip that 369 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: I take a trip to another city. Let's say I'm 370 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: going to Paris, France and I've never been to Paris, 371 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: France before. I would ideally want to put some research 372 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: in beforehand, figure out where I'm going to go, what 373 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: I hope to get out of this trip, what I 374 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: hope to gain from the experience, then go on the trip, 375 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: and then when I get back process it. Be its scrapbooking, 376 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: writing some blogs about it, talking about it with people. 377 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: But I go into this trip with a certain expectation 378 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: and I leave it with this aim of processing and 379 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: learning from it. Okay, so I hear a little bit 380 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: of priming going on, right, and that's what they're talking 381 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: about here that it's not just a let's do some 382 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: up and see what happens. They're talking about, Let's prepare 383 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: them for this. Let's set the room up right, Let's 384 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: make sure they're items to remind them of people they love, 385 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: that we have the music and the ambiance is appropriate. 386 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: And then after the experience, let's discuss and let's see 387 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: what we can learn from this and then move forward 388 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: with it. And the priming thing is really important here 389 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: because they are talking to these patients about seeking relief 390 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: from anxiety and depression, and they are saying that you 391 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: want to administer this drug, and what we're hoping for 392 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: you to do is to be able to conquer your fears, 393 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: I'll lay your years and so already, and we've already 394 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: seen this from the Placebo podcast that we did that 395 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: even when you sometimes talked to a doctor, your symptoms 396 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: will be reduced just by the very act of making 397 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: an appointment or talking to someone. So already they are 398 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: primed to have this experience. And this is really important 399 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: because there are limitations to this, to this sort of 400 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: drug therapy, right, And I was thinking about this. There's 401 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: a book called Rational Mysticism by John Horrigan. It's really 402 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: great and he talks really about inducing these various states 403 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,479 Speaker 1: of being. And we've talked about him married of times, 404 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: but anyway, he is talking about one experiment, and this 405 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: is a Leary experiment, by the way, and it's at 406 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: the Miracle of marsh Chapel and it's in nineteen sixty two. 407 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: It's a double blind study, which is a good thing, right. 408 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: It's called the Good Friday Study. They have ten Divinity 409 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: students who are given the solicibbon and another ten were 410 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: given a placebo and the Good Friday Service they're actually 411 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: in the basement of the church, is piped to them 412 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 1: while they're in the base. Okay, so these are Divinity students. 413 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: They are primed to have some sort of experience where 414 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: they feel closer to God. That's where they're hoping the 415 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: outcome is. But what they find is that eight of 416 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: those ten Divinity students who got the solicition and have 417 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: not great trips here, Like they have some enjoyable moments, 418 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: but they're kind of having some problems with reality. And 419 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: part of this reason is because again the setting and 420 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: the priming, they're not quite there because they have another 421 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: ten students that they are looking at them like they're 422 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: complete animals, or wondering what's going on, or because they 423 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: really don't know what's happening. They don't know these other 424 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: people are being dosed, so they just think they're being 425 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: crazy and they start kind of poking fun at them. 426 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: So you're not in a room where you're by yourself, 427 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: you have headphones on, you're looking inward. That's really important 428 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: and I think that's why we should probably note that 429 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: so far the very new research about this, at least 430 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: of late, has been successful because it is in these 431 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: conditions that are carefully created and you can't just go 432 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: out I guess my point is and go into a 433 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: you know, pick out a cow patty and it hoped 434 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: to have this experience that's going to reduce your fears. Yeah. 435 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: Buddhist and at one point psychedelic experiment or Alan Watts 436 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: has a really fascinating quote on the matter. He said, 437 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, 438 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by 439 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: the various methods of meditation in which drugs are no 440 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: longer necessary or useful if you get the message hang 441 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments like microscopes, telescopes, 442 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: and telephones. The biologist does not sit with I permanently 443 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: glued to the microscope. He goes away and works on 444 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: what he has seen, which I think is a wonderful 445 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 1: quote that it's nicely with these research approaches, because if 446 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: you just pick up a telescope and you know nothing 447 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: about the cosmos and you just look into the sky, 448 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: it's gonna be pretty yeah, but you're not gonna learn anything. 449 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: There's not gonna be anything to really grasp other than WHOA, 450 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: that was kind of neat. It's like looking through a kaleidoscope. 451 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: But ideally you would want to know what you're looking at, 452 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: and you would want to process it towards and that's 453 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: what lots of talking about. Yeah. In Rational Mysticism also 454 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: talked about a guy named David Nichols who's the chairman 455 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 1: at the Department of Medicinal Chemistry at Purdue University, and 456 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: he's conducted a number of experiments with MSDM that's ecstasy, 457 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: but he has concerns about its toxic effects in cases 458 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: of repeated doses, because we know that there are animal 459 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: studies that bear out evidence that repeat doses can damage 460 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: their tonein receptors. So again, it's not just something that you, 461 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say is kids don't 462 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: feel like this is something that you need to go 463 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: out into and explore. Um. Yeah, we're not advocating the 464 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: use of the substances at all, certainly recreationally. Yeah. Yeah. 465 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: So again, the research is in its very early stages, 466 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: and the article does bring up a very good point. 467 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: It wonders whether this type of therapy is ever going 468 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: to really come to fruition, given that drug companies could 469 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: give two times about it. There's no money really in 470 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: something that can be obtained from nature. Yeah, so certainly, 471 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean, as far as I mean, it's concerned because 472 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing that you can cultivate on 473 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: your own, and if it was legalized and everyone, well 474 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: not everyone, but certain portions of the population would simply 475 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: cultivate it and you would probably I guess, buy it 476 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: at your local farmers market, and then where's the cut 477 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: for big farm right. Well, although as we have seen 478 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: with herbal remedies, that does have a bit of a 479 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: market too, so maybe there's a chance for that to 480 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: be marketed to people. But then there's also the problem 481 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: that there's a legal drug use and all that. Okay, 482 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: so let's say that in the future there is the 483 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: possibility of this. This completely changes that the face of 484 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: end of care giving or or even hospice. Right, you 485 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: could have this administer to you by hospice worker, or 486 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: go into a clinic and have an administered to you. Yeah, 487 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: we should also know not pretend that individuals and hospice 488 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: care are not you know, you don't have people dying 489 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: up to their gills and painkillers. I mean, it's not 490 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: like that. We we're hesitant to administer powerful drugs two 491 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: individuals who are dying, and nor should we. I think 492 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: it's important to stress that I don't know what to 493 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: sort of say, like, yes, we are administering well, you know, morphine, right, 494 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: So in other words, you could administer another drug that 495 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: would be beneficial to someone, right, because if you're talking 496 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: especially the very end of life care, not used to 497 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm staring down my last few years of life, but 498 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: I am on my deathbed. Different rules that apply, you know. Well, 499 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: and here's where the gray area starts to come in UM. 500 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: You know, who can have it? Who can't? Do you 501 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: have to undergo psychological evaluation if you're really ill patients 502 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: seeking comfort? What about chronic pain? You know what if 503 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: you're not to really ill, but you have horrible chronic pain. 504 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: These are the sort of questions that start to arise 505 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: when you talk about UM using something that is illegal. Well, 506 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: in the New York Times article, they mentioned one of 507 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: the possibilities, what does it mean that everyone over the 508 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: age seventy to use it? Right? Right right? Which which 509 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: reminds me of a Patton oswal about different rules that 510 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: apply after each birthday. And it was something like, after 511 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: ninety you were legally allowed to kill a person. Because 512 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,239 Speaker 1: if you're ninety and you can kill somebody with your 513 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: bare hands, I think with the rule, yeah, yeah, but yeah, 514 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: I can see the reasoning there. I mean, it's like, 515 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: you reach ninety years old, you've accomplished a lot, you've 516 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: suffered through a lot. Maybe you get to have one 517 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: free strangulation, maybe you get to experiment a little with 518 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: these substances now that you're in the clear. Well, and 519 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: this always point really, this always points back to cannabis too, 520 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: and all the debates about that about whether or not 521 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: we should legalize drugs. You know, are we hamstringing ourselves 522 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: by making them illegal? Will things really turn into a 523 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: crazy maelstrom of drug laden activity if we were to 524 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: do that. I don't know anyway, but it does bring 525 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: that up, that debate up once again. But in any case, 526 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: it does kind of remind me that in order to 527 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: get to these altered states, that doesn't necessarily have to 528 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: be through drugs. As you talked about, there are other 529 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: ways to enter into this, And we talked about lucid 530 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: dreaming as a way to gain perspective. Even traveling we've 531 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: talked about as being a completely dissentering experience that can 532 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: change the way that you frame reality for you yourself, 533 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: and even the overview effect. We talked about that, and 534 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: about astronauts glimpsing the earth as they were returning and 535 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: having these epiphanies that we were all one big humanity role. Yeah, 536 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and then you know, roll into that meditation, 537 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: various forms of meditation that are practiced in various traditions, 538 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: even fiction. I'm a big supporter of mixed stuff up 539 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: if necessary, pick and choose from the cosmic buffets which 540 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: you like, fill in the gaps with your own creations 541 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: and try applaying that. I'm not saying at all cure 542 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: everything in your approach to death, but it couldn't hurt. 543 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: As we're discussing though, the use of psychedelic substances on 544 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: the death bed, it's interesting to you point out that, 545 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: first of all, I'll just suxilate. The author on his 546 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: deathbed asked his wife to inject a hundred micrograms of 547 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: L S D into his muscle tissue, and she obliged, 548 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: and that was in the n died in his home 549 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: that way. And of course Leary was probably the biggest 550 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: fan of psychedelic experiences and knew that he was dying. 551 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: He was doing a prostate cancer. So here's a quote 552 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: from him on the matter. He says, I'm looking forward 553 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: to the most fascinating experience in life, which is dying. 554 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: I've been writing about self directed dying for twenty years. 555 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: You've got to approach your dying the way you live 556 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: your life, with curiosity, with hope, with fascination, with courage, 557 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: and with the help of your friends. So there you 558 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: have it. It's a fascinating area of discussion. A lot 559 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: of gray area there as well. It's frightening to think 560 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: about because we're talking about death. Yeah, it's not to 561 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: feel good sort of thing, right, but again it does 562 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: you know, we all are going to approach it at 563 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: some point too. But it does really change the stakes 564 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: when you know what your death sentences. And certainly nobody 565 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: likes to suffer or see others suffer. So it's an 566 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: interesting topic to cook into. And I think it's important 567 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: to look at these psychedelic substances in a frame of 568 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: reference that is a little departed from the criminal legal 569 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: fun not fun, uh, you know, mess up your life, 570 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: stay normal sort of dichotomy is that that are so 571 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: often referenced. All right, shall we look at some psychedelic 572 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: male from our Psychedelic Robot? Yes, let's bring it over 573 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: all right. First of all, and this is a response 574 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: to our plant communication episode, but it ties in loosely 575 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: with us because we mentioned at the think the start 576 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: of the podcast, if we were to die and become 577 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: re incarnated as a plant, what would we choose? And 578 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: Chris writes in and says, hey, Robert and Juli, I 579 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: just listened to two of your podcasts for the plant 580 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: communication one. I was surprised you wanted to be the 581 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: plants you were. If I were given the choice, I 582 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: would want to be a Californian red oak I think 583 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: that is their name, the ones that grow hundreds of 584 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: feet tall, uh and are really big so you can 585 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: drive cars through them. Not only would you have a 586 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: nice long life, you would be protected by humans and 587 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: have a nice view. Well you couldn't see anything, but 588 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: it would be cool anyway. So that's Chris's thoughts on it. 589 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. I wouldn't want to be a tree 590 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: in the next life that someone drives a car through 591 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: and destroys my roots system, but that's just me. I'm 592 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: still sticking with Moss on that one, alright. We also 593 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: did an episode on lucid dreaming, which we referenced in 594 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: this podcast, and I have a few responses to that. 595 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: Don Old rights and says, hey, guys, I just finished 596 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: listening to your lucid dreaming episode and wanted to add 597 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: to it. I've been interested in lucid dreaming for years 598 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: now and have on numerous occasions lucid dreams myself. You 599 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: mentioned briefly various medications that could affect dreams, but failed 600 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: to touch on one in particular. Kalia zaka takchi is 601 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: an herbal supplement used by shaman's to induce lucid and 602 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: or prophetic dreams, commonly intended to help find answers that 603 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: that may be plaguing an individual or their tribe. It 604 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: is often smoked in a cigarette with equal parts callia 605 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: and tobacco. In fact, lucid dreaming in general seems to 606 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: be very common shamanistic ritual practice around the world. Love 607 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks. We also heard from Brian Brian and 608 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: writes and says, Hi, Robert and Julie really enjoying your podcast. 609 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: Keep up with great work on the subject of flying 610 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: and dreams. You mentioned that most people fly in a 611 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: stiff superman pose while dreaming. I've never had it that easy. 612 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: To get off the ground required vigorous flapping of my 613 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: wide stretched arms and where it's much better if I 614 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: start off running downhill. Take off feels as if I'm 615 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: swimming in molasses and seems to take all of my 616 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: strength to pull off. Once I'm off the ground, I 617 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: can pick up speed and fly very easily, but still 618 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: always using my arms as if they were wings. Just 619 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: thought you might be interested in a different flying technique. 620 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for the great show, and uh so there you 621 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: go a different method of flying about. And then we 622 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: also heard from Max. Max writes in and says, dear 623 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: Robert and Julie and the Lucid Dreaming episode, you discussed 624 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: flying in dreams to be stiff. Although I've also experienced 625 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: flying stiff and dreams, I'm usually able to steer the 626 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: flying by moving my arms and legs. When I'm able 627 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: to steer, I seem to fly much longer, probably because 628 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,959 Speaker 1: when flying stiff, I seem to crash as soon as 629 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: I realize I'm flying. I think that when I realized 630 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: I'm flying, my logic takes over and tells me that 631 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: I cannot fly, resulting in the crash. Thanks for the 632 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: great podcast and the hours of thoughts inspired by them, Max, 633 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: those are really cool. I was just thinking about how 634 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: we were talking about how logic is somehow there's the 635 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: idea that logic is still somehow online, um when you're 636 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: lucid dreaming, which is not usually the case in dreams, 637 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: but we do see logic and the methods well. And 638 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: I was just thinking too in my own experiences of flying. 639 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: There are times that I plummet to the ground and 640 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: I have to tell myself like no, no, you can 641 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: do this, and it's um and so I was just 642 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: thinking like, yeah, maybe there was other times when you 643 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: see the logic centers really coming online and you have 644 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: to kind of stay back off a little bit. You know, 645 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna fly here. So let us know what you think. 646 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: We would love to hear about your dreaming or lucid 647 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: dreaming experiences. We would love to hear your thoughts on 648 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: psychedelic substances and our journey into death. Like I said, 649 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot of gray area in there, and we'll 650 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,239 Speaker 1: be interested to hear people's different takes on it. And 651 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: we're not opposed to hearing from people who have really 652 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: dealt firsthand with preparations for death and staring down into life. 653 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook and Twitter. On Facebook 654 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: we are Stuff to Blow Your Mind and on Twitter 655 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: we are Blow the Mind. And I should also point 656 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: out that currently there is a really cool video series 657 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: that we did and it is called Stuff to Blow 658 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: Your Kid's Mind. Ten episodes. Short videos are about six 659 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: minutes each. Check them out, watch them with your child, 660 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: or watch them, steal all the information, and then present 661 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: the ideas as your own your child. Both uses are valid. 662 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: We put a lot of work into that and we're 663 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: really proud of it. Also, there is a photo contest 664 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: called stuff to Blow Your Mind. You can reach it 665 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: on the House Stuff Works homepage. You can reach it 666 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: on the House Stuff Works or stuff to Blow your 667 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: Mind Facebook pages into really cool photos that you've taken, 668 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: vote on other photos, possibly win an iPad? What an iPad? Yeah? 669 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: I can't do it. I know, I've already checked into this, 670 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: but you guys can, so check it out. Drop us 671 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: a line if you will at blow the Mind at 672 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: discovery dot com. For more on this and thousands of 673 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: other topics, is it how stuff works dot com