1
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is

2
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,160
Speaker 1: Robert Land and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time

3
00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,600
Speaker 1: for an older episode of the show, this one from

4
00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,000
Speaker 1: the vault. It was called Science in the House of

5
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,280
Speaker 1: Wax and it originally published on October one. This one

6
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,800
Speaker 1: was all about like haunted wax museum movies. Yes, yes,

7
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 1: this is a fun one. We were, of course now

8
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,120
Speaker 1: into our Halloween season here on Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

9
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,240
Speaker 1: This is our first Halloween Vault episode, I believe, And

10
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:35,919
Speaker 1: yeah this is this one was really cool. You get

11
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 1: into like what are wax figures? Why are wax figures?

12
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,520
Speaker 1: How have they been used and thought about? Um throughout

13
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 1: human history? Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production

14
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to

15
00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,200
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and time

16
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,720
Speaker 1: Joe McCormick and hate It is finally October, our favorite

17
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 1: month of the year if you're new to the show.

18
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,880
Speaker 1: Every October every year we spend the whole month, uh

19
00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,319
Speaker 1: talking about monster science, spooky stuff. And we have got

20
00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,120
Speaker 1: a firecracker to kick off this month. This year I

21
00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,640
Speaker 1: think because Robert, you and I both got wax fever.

22
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 1: That's right, we are going to be talking about wax. Uh.

23
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,480
Speaker 1: In particular, we're going to be talking about wax and

24
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 1: human flesh, wax in the human form. What happens when

25
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,000
Speaker 1: we make human bodies out of wax? How do we

26
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 1: feel about that? And we're gonna We're gonna gonna start

27
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 1: at the U. I guess at the the end of

28
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,880
Speaker 1: this consideration, and like if this were like a drainage pipe,

29
00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 1: we're going to find where it empties out into the

30
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,360
Speaker 1: river of popular culture and genre film, because we're going

31
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 1: to talk about wax, horror movies, House of wax movies,

32
00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 1: wax museum movies, the trade of wax in horror cinema.

33
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,360
Speaker 1: I love your metaphor here, because yes, climbing in through

34
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 1: the sewer grade is the only way to infiltrate the

35
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: wax fortress. Uh. No, wait, did did you end up

36
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 1: watching the nineteen fifty three House of Wax? No? I

37
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 1: watched the wonderful trailer for it that contains no footage

38
00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,120
Speaker 1: from the film and just just a whole bunch of

39
00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 1: crazy fonts and promises about what the film will consist

40
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,360
Speaker 1: of and how it will change your life. Oh, man.

41
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,920
Speaker 1: The lettering of the titles is actually one of the

42
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,840
Speaker 1: best things in this movie. It's like very bright orange

43
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,920
Speaker 1: and it's zooming out at the camera so that The

44
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 1: House of Wax nineteen fifty three is a Vincent Price

45
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,360
Speaker 1: feature exploring the dark mania of wax crime, and it

46
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 1: is made truly exquisite by just scene after seeing of

47
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,080
Speaker 1: of back to back three D effects money shots, where

48
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 1: there is there's like a solid five minutes in the

49
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,679
Speaker 1: middle of the movie of a guy just doing paddleball

50
00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,120
Speaker 1: tricks straight into the camera lens, you know, like in

51
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 1: in Jason three D where he's like shoving the knife

52
00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 1: towards the camera. It's it's that level of three D exploitation.

53
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,640
Speaker 1: But other than that, it is a film about a

54
00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 1: wax sculptor played by Vincent Price, who is obsessively devoted

55
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,200
Speaker 1: to his craft, and he's got this belief that his

56
00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 1: sculptures are somehow real people who can speak to him,

57
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 1: like he says he'd rather die than have his sculptures destroyed.

58
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 1: But then he's got this scheming, evil investor who wants

59
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,519
Speaker 1: to burn down Prices Wax Museum and get the insurance cash.

60
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,120
Speaker 1: And so he does this and Price gets injured in

61
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,760
Speaker 1: the fire, and then he turns to wax crime, deciding

62
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 1: that he's gotta he's gotta kill people and use their

63
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,160
Speaker 1: dead bodies to make wax figures for a brand new museum,

64
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,000
Speaker 1: which is weird because it seems like that would kind

65
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,080
Speaker 1: of take the artistry out of it, right, if you're

66
00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,000
Speaker 1: just using real dead bodies, Like it wasn't the whole

67
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 1: point that you were crafting them. Yes, and this is

68
00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 1: but this is something that first of all, we'll see

69
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 1: time and time again in tax horror movies, the idea

70
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 1: that the wax figure is actually wax cast around a

71
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,640
Speaker 1: human victim. And it's almost like a like a weird

72
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 1: backhanded compliment, like, like, the artistry is so perfect in

73
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 1: these they look so lifelike. They must be made out

74
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 1: of corps as you took a corpse, right, This isn't this,

75
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,000
Speaker 1: This isn't a product of your skill. You're a murderer,

76
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 1: right right. Yeah, And and they're like whole scenes in

77
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 1: the movie where characters are just sitting around arguing about

78
00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,760
Speaker 1: whether or not this wax figure is a real person

79
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,240
Speaker 1: or not. Uh, and it it spoiler alert, it is

80
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 1: it's a you know that that that's not Joan of Arc.

81
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 1: That's my friend Matilda who got murdered in the elevator

82
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,440
Speaker 1: last week. A quick, quick fun fact about this film,

83
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,359
Speaker 1: I was reading that it is uh, it's it's largely

84
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,760
Speaker 1: responsible apparently for really uh bringing Vincent Price back into

85
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,919
Speaker 1: these leading horror roles. Apparently prior to this, he was

86
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,320
Speaker 1: doing a lot of you know, second and third billing

87
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,640
Speaker 1: relatable characters and h because of this film we see

88
00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,320
Speaker 1: some of like the real horror films to come with

89
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,039
Speaker 1: Vincent Price. That I have to say, Vincent Price, all

90
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: the likability always shines through it, no matter how deplorable

91
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 1: the character. Totally, Yeah, he's always that same lovable Vincent Price.

92
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,560
Speaker 1: But I didn't realize that about his career. So maybe

93
00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 1: he was like coming out of the era where he

94
00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,000
Speaker 1: had been the narrator in a made for TV adaptation

95
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 1: of a Christmas Carol. Yeah, the equivalent there. Yeah. But

96
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: then also, uh, there's a funny thing about this movie

97
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 1: is that it's notable for featuring a very young Charles

98
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,920
Speaker 1: Bronson as a character named Igor, who is Price's assistant

99
00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 1: in wax Crime, which seems a little bit on the nose.

100
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 1: But then also you know, there was a remake of this,

101
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 1: So actually I think the fifty three movie was technically

102
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,159
Speaker 1: a remake of an earlier movie that you might mention

103
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 1: in a minute. But before I ever saw the fifty

104
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 1: three one, I saw many years ago the two thousand

105
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 1: five I guess final remake of House of Wax that

106
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,240
Speaker 1: was marketed almost conclusively on the fact that Paris Hilton

107
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 1: was in it and you would get to see her die,

108
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 1: like literal literally, there were posters that said, see Paris die. Yeah,

109
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,120
Speaker 1: this is a weird one to think back on, because

110
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 1: this was a time when Paris Hilton was at the

111
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,400
Speaker 1: center of like media attention and this whole this film

112
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 1: was just sold entirely on this idea of celebrity death worship. Yeah.

113
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,360
Speaker 1: I tried to rewatch it last night. It was a

114
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,599
Speaker 1: brief experience of intense suffering, and I did not I

115
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,799
Speaker 1: was we were not able to finish watching this. Uh.

116
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 1: It is probably the most mid two thousand's thing I

117
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,080
Speaker 1: have ever seen. It's just two thousand five in a

118
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 1: pill form. So you've got Paris Hilton, You've got Chad.

119
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,320
Speaker 1: Michael Murray is like the bad boy who turns out

120
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,960
Speaker 1: to be good. In a pinch, and then there's a

121
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 1: character who's shoving a digital camcorder and everybody's face Remember

122
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,680
Speaker 1: when every horror movie had that for some reason, it

123
00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,359
Speaker 1: would randomly intercut to grainy digital video for for no

124
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 1: apparent reason, and that the soundtrack, it was just constantly

125
00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,480
Speaker 1: coming in with, you know, sudden compressed guitars and the

126
00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 1: butt rock voice just stabbing into your ears. Uh, it's it. Yeah,

127
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,360
Speaker 1: I couldn't finish it. I was reading about it. Um,

128
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 1: this is when I have not watched But apparently the

129
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: wax Museum in the film is supposed to actually be

130
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,720
Speaker 1: made of wax as well, which, um, it sounds stupid,

131
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,240
Speaker 1: but it's stupid enough that I at least have to

132
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 1: commend it on committing to such a ludicrous notion. Uh yeah,

133
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't get that far this time,

134
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:37,880
Speaker 1: and I do not recall from the last time I

135
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 1: watched it, though it does feature a Paris Hilton made

136
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 1: of wax, or at least covered in wax. All of

137
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 1: the characters look a little bit waxy anyway, and I

138
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,880
Speaker 1: would say, well, that's an intentional effect, you know, for

139
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,040
Speaker 1: this film in particular, But really I think that was

140
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 1: just the visual style of mid two thousand's horror movies. Now, um,

141
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 1: let's see what We're not gonna be able to touch

142
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,040
Speaker 1: on all the wax horror films in this episod. I

143
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,760
Speaker 1: would really say much about him. I will say that

144
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: wax Work, which came out in it was a lot

145
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 1: of fun and had a pretty fun sequel as well.

146
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 1: It has the the guy from Gremlin and Gremlin's too,

147
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 1: and oh yeah, Zach Gag, Yeah, yeah, he played. He's

148
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,200
Speaker 1: in both films, and David Warner plays the the wax Master,

149
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 1: the villain in the first one. The wax Work films

150
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,960
Speaker 1: that I recall are are very they're kind of, you

151
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,960
Speaker 1: know that genre of of of fantasy film that existed

152
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 1: at the time where it's like you're skipping channels and

153
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,400
Speaker 1: you're being thrown into different realities. Yes, yes, I do.

154
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 1: That's what this was based on. It's like that plus

155
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,920
Speaker 1: wax Museum horror film, and I remember it being kind

156
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 1: of fun. I haven't watched these since the nineties, but

157
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,720
Speaker 1: I remember them being kind of fun late night of

158
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,600
Speaker 1: viewing experience. So it's kind of like the montage at

159
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:55,199
Speaker 1: the end of West Craven's Shocker yeah, I guess yeah, okay, um,

160
00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,520
Speaker 1: now I should I should also point out that the

161
00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,679
Speaker 1: nine five film Mad Loves Are in Peter Laure uh uh.

162
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,360
Speaker 1: This is one of my favorite weird pictures and probably

163
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 1: my favorite new to me film that I saw this year.

164
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,880
Speaker 1: It actually features a wax double of a popular performer

165
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,120
Speaker 1: as a plot point. So you see it, You see

166
00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,120
Speaker 1: him popping up again and again at least as an

167
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 1: element in a weird or a horror movie plot. But but, but,

168
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,199
Speaker 1: but just weird wax films in general, they seem to

169
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,600
Speaker 1: go all the way back. It appears that wax museum

170
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 1: horror movies, uh, basically just are across the entire landscape

171
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,080
Speaker 1: of cinematic tradition. The earliest example that I was able

172
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 1: to find was Figures This Siri with with the or

173
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,679
Speaker 1: the Man with Wax Faces from nineteen three. And this

174
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 1: is a short silent French horror film based on a

175
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,960
Speaker 1: short story by Andre de Lord, a French playwright of

176
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:57,160
Speaker 1: the grand u gignal Um tradition, you know, the sort

177
00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,480
Speaker 1: of horror decapitation plays of the time. Gring y'all we

178
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 1: we talked to yes, yeah, with the uh, I think

179
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,360
Speaker 1: we talked about this in our episode about the Masked Killers, right,

180
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,400
Speaker 1: how like the Jason movies and all that sort of

181
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,679
Speaker 1: grow out of the Grand Guineall tradition, which was like

182
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 1: just extremely gory stage plays, which interesting, interestingly enough, also

183
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,360
Speaker 1: part of the plot to a Mad Love. Also another

184
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,079
Speaker 1: kind of cool thing about this particular film. It was

185
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,199
Speaker 1: apparently thought to be a lost film up until two

186
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 1: thousand seven. Oh wow. But even even during the nineteen twenties,

187
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 1: there were multiple other wax movies that came out in

188
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 1: this film's wake. Um there was n While Paris Sleeps

189
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:43,199
Speaker 1: ninety wax Works nine seven Faces, and another film in

190
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,560
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine title Chamber of Horrors, and subsequent decades

191
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,160
Speaker 1: would prove you know that we had plenty of tolerance

192
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,040
Speaker 1: for more wax films. Uh. I think that you pretty

193
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,280
Speaker 1: much have wax films popping up in every subsequent decade

194
00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: um of of of horror move history. So the idea

195
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,599
Speaker 1: that wax figures are inherently creepy is not one of

196
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,640
Speaker 1: these like new creepiness inventions or discoveries like how you know,

197
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,800
Speaker 1: I don't know what year it was that everybody decided

198
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 1: clowns were creepy you know. Um, but this seems to

199
00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,480
Speaker 1: be like to go basically back as far as wax

200
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: figures go, right there, there's always sort of this understanding

201
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 1: that they had extreme horror potential. Yeah, well it's I

202
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:28,560
Speaker 1: think that, Well, it's definitely gonna be one of the

203
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,520
Speaker 1: things we explore in this episode. But clearly throughout the

204
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 1: history of cinema it's always been established, like there was

205
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 1: never a question. There was never like a pre wax

206
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,280
Speaker 1: is creepy era in cinema. And we we should also

207
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,959
Speaker 1: note that, um, that that prior to the nineteen twenties,

208
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 1: there was also just a history of wax chambers of

209
00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 1: horror um that you would find in wax museums they

210
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 1: would have this rogues gallery of you know, generally serial

211
00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,600
Speaker 1: murderers and burglars and grave robbers in this tradition dates

212
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,640
Speaker 1: back to uh, you know, even before that. So in

213
00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 1: a way, wax was a medium for horror before cinema

214
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 1: became available to host all of our fears and our revulsions. Yeah,

215
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 1: that's reflected in in the fifty three price movie that

216
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,679
Speaker 1: you know, they they're getting pressure from potential investors to say, like,

217
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't you make a lot more money if your wax

218
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,240
Speaker 1: museum was full of murderers and people going to executions.

219
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,560
Speaker 1: And he does end up staging a lot of those scenes.

220
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 1: But I remember actually going to Madame Tusseau's and like,

221
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,320
Speaker 1: I was just kind of shocked by how much of

222
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: it was just absolutely like puerile interest in in like

223
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:45,120
Speaker 1: gross and violent stuff. Yeah, basically the the the Wax

224
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 1: Chamber of Horrors was the original Murder podcast. So yeah,

225
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,240
Speaker 1: that's so I'm I'm joking, But of course I think

226
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 1: it does show the y that that interest has always

227
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 1: been there and we have to find a way to

228
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: express it culturally. I should also know that there's a

229
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,720
Speaker 1: or air tradition here as well, most notably the wax

230
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,040
Speaker 1: works by Charles S. Belden, which was the basis for

231
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,160
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three's Mystery of the Wax Museum and the

232
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 1: subsequent House of Wax Films and fifty three and two

233
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 1: thousand five. Now that there are a number of these

234
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,240
Speaker 1: wax films that I have not seen, but I felt

235
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,200
Speaker 1: like I needed to watch something new. I got so

236
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 1: excited about it, so I ended up watching a large

237
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 1: portion of the nineteen sixty nine film Nightmare in Wax.

238
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 1: Is this the one that's got Cameron Mitchell and the

239
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,160
Speaker 1: photo looking like William Shatner with an I patch. I'm

240
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,920
Speaker 1: glad you brought that up, because I think there's something

241
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,680
Speaker 1: about I was thinking about this earlier that that Cameron

242
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 1: Mitchell is like he's very similar um to Shatner and

243
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,680
Speaker 1: in many ways, you know, has similar similar sort of

244
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,120
Speaker 1: body and stature and also you know, similar like like

245
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 1: stereotypically handsome face, except with Cameron Mitchell everything is just

246
00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,640
Speaker 1: a little more dangerous and unsettling. Like like you you

247
00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,319
Speaker 1: can you can trust a character played by William Shatner,

248
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,720
Speaker 1: but you cannot trust a character played by Cameron Mitchell.

249
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,360
Speaker 1: If Cameron Mitchell had played the captain of the starship Enterprise,

250
00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: it would have been an entirely different universe. It would

251
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 1: have been a very a very dark star fleet. If

252
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 1: he was at the at the helm. He's a shatterer

253
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 1: with lurid secrets, yes, and in this film he he

254
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,760
Speaker 1: gets he has a lot of time to shine as

255
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,000
Speaker 1: much as anything shines in a film that is this

256
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,520
Speaker 1: grubby looking and this grubby sounding. Um. It's uh, there

257
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 1: may be a cleaner cut of it out there. I

258
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,680
Speaker 1: don't know, but the version I watched is the one

259
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,880
Speaker 1: as of this recording currently on Amazon Prime, and it

260
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,640
Speaker 1: is it is just it is grubby. It's I had

261
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 1: to put on the subtitles to understand what people were

262
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 1: saying part of the time, and it is, you know,

263
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just the sound quality of the thing.

264
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,360
Speaker 1: I wonder which is more visually unpleasant, this one or

265
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,240
Speaker 1: the two thousand five movie, I think in different ways

266
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,080
Speaker 1: like this one. This one has a lot of gels,

267
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,040
Speaker 1: and it's like, again, the video qualities just kind of grubby.

268
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,480
Speaker 1: There are a lot of scenes of a of a

269
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,840
Speaker 1: gel lit Cameron Mitchell in this kind of dark satanic

270
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,880
Speaker 1: robe with uh, scarred face I patch constantly just chain

271
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 1: smoking and drinking and having these just really insane, maniacal

272
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 1: monologues as he's either by himself or when he's tormenting

273
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: a victim. It's it's a weird one. I went ahead

274
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 1: and fast forward to the end just to see how

275
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,040
Speaker 1: it wrapped up, and it just it just ends in

276
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: nightmare and madness. Um, it's a film that makes you

277
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,200
Speaker 1: feel uneasy. Well, maybe we should talk about some of

278
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 1: the aspects that apparently have to show up in every

279
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,160
Speaker 1: wax movie, right, yes, yeah, there there are certain certain

280
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 1: things you're always going to find. Um. Facial scarring or

281
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,280
Speaker 1: deformity seems to always be there, seemingly linking the human

282
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 1: likeness in wax uh two in the in the idea

283
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,880
Speaker 1: that it could melt and that it is um, you know,

284
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,000
Speaker 1: imperfect medium in which to work, is not like stone,

285
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 1: comparing that to the actual fragility of human flesh. Um.

286
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 1: And on top of that, almost all of these movies

287
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 1: have some sort of a wax master behind it all.

288
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,000
Speaker 1: Often the wax master is the one that is scarred,

289
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,960
Speaker 1: and it's generally played by some sort of interesting character actor. Okay,

290
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 1: so the fifty three You've Got Vincent Price, he gets

291
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,800
Speaker 1: he gets burned into fire and then his face is

292
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 1: scarred and then turns to wax crime. But he there's

293
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 1: a variation in the fifty three movie, which is that

294
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 1: he makes himself a wax face of his old face.

295
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 1: So for a significant part of the later part of

296
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,640
Speaker 1: the movie, he's going around looking like regular Vincent Price.

297
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,320
Speaker 1: But it's because he supposedly has this mask on. Yes, yeah,

298
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,120
Speaker 1: and you see that that exact same situation pop up

299
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 1: in other wax master films. Uh the not always, but

300
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: certainly the Cameron Mitchell character here is is an example

301
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,640
Speaker 1: of that. But but so some of the other characters

302
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 1: that have played wax masters include Peter Cushing, Um, David Warner,

303
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 1: also John Carradine. So you know, just gives you an

304
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 1: idea that the type of kid basically your your your

305
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,680
Speaker 1: middle aged horror movie lead, the actor who will say yes.

306
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,439
Speaker 1: Another important aspect of wax movies is if you can

307
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,920
Speaker 1: afford it, you've got to have a cauldron of wax,

308
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 1: and someone needs to either go into that cauldron of

309
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,440
Speaker 1: wax or be suspended over it. Yep, yep, all correct,

310
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,680
Speaker 1: though I got a bone to pick with that cauldron

311
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 1: thing in a minute here when I get into some

312
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,440
Speaker 1: chemistry of wax. But I've got another element that has

313
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 1: to appear in all these movies, which is that the

314
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 1: palace of wax must burn. You know, there's a fire,

315
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 1: and you get to watch the wax figures melting grotesquely.

316
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,080
Speaker 1: Because of the textural similarity of wax to skin, it

317
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 1: sometimes looks surprisingly like a real human melting. I don't

318
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,720
Speaker 1: think a real human would melt quite like that. But

319
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, something about it looks organic, you know it does.

320
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 1: It does look like just a normal type of inanimate object.

321
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,240
Speaker 1: It's something kind of like alive and coming apart. Uh.

322
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 1: And it almost makes me wonder if, like all these

323
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: wax movies where the wax figures always melt, could be

324
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,439
Speaker 1: the source of the melt movie trend. Oh yeah, I

325
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,680
Speaker 1: think that's that's a good point. But I want to

326
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,160
Speaker 1: add another thing, which is that I don't know for sure,

327
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,679
Speaker 1: but I think it's possible that this common set piece

328
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,680
Speaker 1: of the wax Palace burning down is inspired by real

329
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,960
Speaker 1: historical events because I found an archived article from the

330
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 1: Guardian from I guess it was the Manchester Guardian at

331
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,280
Speaker 1: the time, from March nineteenth nine about a fire at

332
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,040
Speaker 1: Madame Tousseau's in London from that year, so it looks

333
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,560
Speaker 1: like there so there was a fire at this wax museums,

334
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 1: very famous popular wax museum in London. The fire started

335
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: in the evening around ten thirty one night and then

336
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,480
Speaker 1: firefighters showed up. They had it extinguished by midnight, but

337
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,919
Speaker 1: there was a lot of damage and while it was

338
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 1: burning it reportedly turned into a huge spectacle with the

339
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 1: Guardian reporting that possibly ten thousand people assembled in the

340
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,919
Speaker 1: neighborhood to watch watch the fire or be nearby. That

341
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 1: number sounds high to me. I don't know how that

342
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 1: was estimated, but then again, I guess they did not

343
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,120
Speaker 1: have TV at the time. But there's there's some real

344
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: gems from this article, so I just want to read

345
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: a few quotes. One of them is quote the fire

346
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,200
Speaker 1: brigade was under the command of a Mr. A. R. Dyer,

347
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 1: who was brought to the scene from a theater where

348
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,880
Speaker 1: he had been spending the evening with some friends. Despite

349
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 1: the fact that he was in evening dress, he took

350
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 1: an active part in the operations. So you've you've got,

351
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 1: I guess, a guy into like a fancy tuxedo commanding

352
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 1: the firefighters at at Tussau's and then um, once the

353
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 1: firefighters start to get the blaze under under control, it

354
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,560
Speaker 1: says that the men of the Salvage Corps started running

355
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 1: in and grabbing wax figures out of the exhibits to

356
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,400
Speaker 1: bring them out to safety. The Salvage Corps where things

357
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,719
Speaker 1: there were like a force that worked in concert firefighters

358
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: at the time, where the firefighters be trying to put

359
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 1: out the blaze and the Salvage Corps which would be

360
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 1: running in trying to grab stuff to prevent property damage

361
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 1: and loss. I don't know if they were somehow funded

362
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: by insurance companies there something that it seems possible, but

363
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 1: to read a quote from this article, two of the

364
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 1: salvage Corps men were seen struggling along with a huge

365
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,880
Speaker 1: cage containing a green parrot, which after a moment or two,

366
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 1: hopped onto its perch and began to show signs of

367
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,480
Speaker 1: a return to perkiness. This was apparently a famous green

368
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 1: parrot of Madame Tusso's, and there was another report in

369
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 1: the Evening Post that says, after the parrot was I

370
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 1: guess that it had been sort of rendered sluggish by

371
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: some smoke inhalation, but once they got it back outside,

372
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 1: it sort of perked back up. And this, uh, this

373
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 1: report in the Evening Post says, then it startled everyone

374
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: by remarking, this is a rotten business. I can't do

375
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: a parrot voice, but rotten business. And then one more

376
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: longer quote from that Guardian article, members of the crowd

377
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 1: inquired after the safety of Charlie Peace, Crippen and other

378
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: notorious criminals from the Chamber of Horrors, so people are

379
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,399
Speaker 1: out there yelling like, how's Crippen doing? Is he? Okay

380
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: um uh? The side of the salvage men shouldering the

381
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 1: wax models was a strange one. An eyewitness who lives

382
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 1: opposite Madame Tousseau has said in an interview that the

383
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 1: fire was a wonderful spectacle. Strong red and golden flames

384
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: leapt fifty feet from the roof of the building. The

385
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: wax models could be distinctly heard sizzling. It is strange

386
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: to think of the number of imminent and highly respectable

387
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: people being burned in effigy in London. Madame Tusseau's famous

388
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: wax works spread its net far and wide, with at

389
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 1: least forty people of the present Parliament and scores of

390
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 1: notabilities outside were represented in wax in these burning galleries.

391
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 1: Criminals represented in the Chamber of Horrors, however, will have

392
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 1: no feelings in the matter, as they are all dead. Well.

393
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: This is great because this does also get into some

394
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: of the ideas we're going to discuss concerning the likeness

395
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: that has been created in wax and it's relationship to

396
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: the living human or the deceased human and whatever the

397
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,479
Speaker 1: case may be. You know, there's some photos online that

398
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: are alleging to be of the aftermath of the fire

399
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: at Madame Tusso's. They appear to be of like various

400
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: like charred and partial remains of wax figures. I'm not

401
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 1: I couldn't confirm that they were definitely from uh this

402
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: actual fire, but wherever they're from, they really do look

403
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: absolutely horrific. It's it's one of the most nightmarish things

404
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. Yeah, it's just like bodies and lifelike heads,

405
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: and they're just kind of clearly they're just kind of

406
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: like thrown up against the wall um temporarily. But it

407
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: it is bizarre to look at. Is that it is

408
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: unsettling because they are they are lifelike and yet lifeless. Now,

409
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: there's an interesting thing that I want to get into

410
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: for a minute, if you don't mind a brief chemistry diversion,

411
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: which is the fact that all of these movies feature

412
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 1: a roasting, burning, melting hell of wax at some point.

413
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: It kind of raises an issue about the chemistry of wax.

414
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: What actually happens when wax burns, like what happens in

415
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: a candle. I think this is something that I probably

416
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: should have been able to intuit the answer to, but

417
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: I went most of my life, I think, not really

418
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 1: knowing the question of how a candle works or you know,

419
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: what what is being what is happening when a candle

420
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: burns down? Because this is key be you know, we

421
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: have to to realize that when when we we get

422
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: into the discussions of of wax bodies that have been created,

423
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: like one of our primary relationships with wax would have

424
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: long been the candle. And and so we bring that

425
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: knowledge of what a candle appears to do to our

426
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: I think, to our consideration of wax bodies and wax art, etcetera. Yeah,

427
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: and a candle is, despite being a very mundane object,

428
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: it's actually a little bit more mysterious and mystical the

429
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: more you look into it, and it's actually a wonderful

430
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: scientific invention. Uh So, So technically, you know, you've got

431
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: a lot of different chemical compounds that are called wax.

432
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: There's not just one thing that is wax. Wax is

433
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: the umbrella category for malleable organic compounds that are solid

434
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: at room temperature and lipophilic, meaning that you know they're

435
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: they're not going to dissolve in water. They will only

436
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: dissolve in oil or other nonpolar solvents. And basically almost

437
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: all waxes, I think perhaps all, at least almost all,

438
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 1: are hydrocarbons. They're made up of hydrogen and carbon atoms.

439
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 1: The most common type that you will find for various

440
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: consumer items and uses today is probably paraffin wax, which

441
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: is a modern industrial product that's derived from petroleum, first

442
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: created in the early eighteen hundreds, but people have been

443
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: using other types of wax for thousands of years. There

444
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: are a lot of types of wax that are derived

445
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 1: from animal products. For example, we're going to talk about

446
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptians in a bit, but they were certainly

447
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: lords of bees wax. And then there's land an l in,

448
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: which is a type of wool wax. It is secreted

449
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: from glands in the skin of animals like sheep I

450
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: believe called the sebaceous glands, which is that's a good

451
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: word for your tool belt. But there's also spermaceti, which

452
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: is a historically very important wax that came out of

453
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: the heads of whales like sperm whales and bottlenose whales,

454
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: which some people once believed was literally the congealed semen

455
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: of the whales stored in its head. For some reason,

456
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: it's not it's a waxing material. But so you probably

457
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: know from experience that candle wax, whatever it's made of,

458
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: generally is not flammable in the sense that you know

459
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: oily rags or something. Are you You can't hold a

460
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: flame up to the wax edge of a candle, uh

461
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 1: and and watch it just catch fire. Instead, it's going

462
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: to melt and run down the side, right. Nevertheless, the

463
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: wax is the fuel for the candle flame. When a

464
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: candle burns, the fuel that's burning is the wax that

465
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: the candles made of. And the crucial factor here is

466
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: that wax is not flammable in its solid or liquid state.

467
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: It has to be vaporized into its constituent hydrogen and

468
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: carbon molecules in order to catch fire. So the way

469
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: it works is once you light the wick, the flame

470
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: melts a little bit of the solid wax around the

471
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: base of the wick, and then once the wax is melted,

472
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: it gets drawn up into the wick via capillary action

473
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: just kind of like kind of like the way that

474
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: water is drawn up the length of a celery stalk,

475
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: and then this liquid wax gets even hotter as it

476
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: gets sucked up into the area where the fire is,

477
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: and it undergoes a second phase change into the gaseous

478
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: form of its constituent molecules, and then the fire happens.

479
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: The heat of the flame causes those gaseous molecules to

480
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: react with the oxygen in the air, and this creates

481
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: more fire. It keeps the flame going, and as long

482
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: as new wax can be drawn up into the wick,

483
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: the flame can keep burning. Candles are actually a rather

484
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: ingenious invention, but there's also something kind of un any

485
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: to them even in their monday and form, which is that,

486
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: unlike wood or coal or a lot of the other

487
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: things that we burn on purpose, candles burn without leaving

488
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: any ash or any solid you know, detritus. The wax

489
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: that burns simply disappears completely into thin air. And this

490
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: is certainly a quality of candles and wax that that

491
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: influences our magical thinking regarding wax. Oh yeah, this will

492
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: definitely come up again, certainly with ancient Egypt and things

493
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: like that. But um, this actually leads to a very

494
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: fun and easy science experiment that like if you've got kids,

495
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: and you want to try this at home. I just

496
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: did this myself earlier today. You ever noticed, how so

497
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: when you first attempt to light a candle when the

498
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: wax is still completely solid, it can kind of take

499
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: a while, right, Like, you have to hold the flame

500
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 1: against the wick. You have to put it right there

501
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: on the wick, and usually have to hold it there

502
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: for several seconds or the candle won't light. But if

503
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: you leave a candle burning for a few minutes, first

504
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: of all, you might notice that the flame burns almost

505
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: perfectly clean with no smoke. You know, it's it's kind

506
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: of a miraculous looking thing when you notice it. Most

507
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: of the time, if there's a fire, you're going to

508
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: see smoke coming off of it. But then if you

509
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: blow out the candle, suddenly you will see smoke. It'll

510
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: be smoke rising off the wick. What is that stuff? Well,

511
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: primarily this is vaporized wax. This is wax converted to

512
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: its vaporized form, condensing into little droplets in the air

513
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: as it rises off with the wick. And now it

514
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: can't react with the oxygen in the air anymore because

515
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: the flame is gone. But if you hold a flame

516
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: up to a candle that you have just blown out

517
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: while the wax vapor is still rising off of the wick.

518
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: You will notice that it lights much more easily than

519
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: it did at first. In fact, it happens almost instantly,

520
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: and you probably don't even have to touch the lighter

521
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: lighter flame to the wick. You can just hold it close.

522
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: And the difference is that now the candle has been

523
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: burning for a few minutes, there's already wax in its

524
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: liquid form and even in its gaseous form rising in

525
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: that smoke. And this brings me back to the fact

526
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: that the fact of those bubbling cauldrons in the wax movies,

527
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that vaporized wax is so flammable

528
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: is one of those reasons that that all of those

529
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: movie scenes with a bubbling cauldron of wax are scary. Like,

530
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: if you're trying to heat and melt wax for sculpting,

531
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: I think people are usually advised to do it over

532
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: a double boiler, you know, so you have water boiling

533
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: on the bottom, and you're using the steam from that

534
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: to heat your your boiler with the wax to prevent

535
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: accidentally heating the wax to the point where it becomes

536
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: extremely flammable and dangerous um. And if you know, if

537
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: it does get to that point, if you have wax

538
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: reaching its flashpoint, it's also not the kind of fire

539
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: that can be easily put out, say by throwing water

540
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: on it, because throwing water onto lipid based fires can

541
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: be very dangerous, make it worse. This is excellent advice

542
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: for any would be wax masters out there looking to

543
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: set up their secret dungeon studio. Yeah, don't play around

544
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: with wax. Now, again, we're not able to reference every

545
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: wax horror film that's that's come out. You know, you're

546
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: trying to sort of stick to the the generalities here,

547
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: but I should I do want to point out that

548
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: there's a really cool wax based entity that shows up

549
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: in TV's Doom Patrol, which is a current television series

550
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: based on the comic book and in this case particularly

551
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: Grant Morrison's run with the title. There's this character named

552
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: Candle Maker that's this wax dripping candelabra headed being with

553
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: with like candle light on its head and in the

554
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: pits of its eyes um and it in the comics

555
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: it's described as being an edgregor. This is a thing

556
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: that's created by unconscious tensions surrounding historical crisises such as

557
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: the threat of nuclear nuclear annihilation, and the comic version

558
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: is quite ghastly as well. But the TV version also

559
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: creates this wonderful ambiguity of melting flesh and or candle wax,

560
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: and there's as it begins to tear into all the

561
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: characters around it, there's also a lot of melted wax

562
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: and anigans in the way it dispatches people and like

563
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: leaves them covered in now dried wax behind it. Man,

564
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: that's a great idea for a monster. Yeah, it's pretty good.

565
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: I was not familiar with it prior to checking out

566
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: this show because I had never actually never read Grant

567
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: Morrison's run on Doom Patrol. But yeah, it's it's a

568
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: wonderful creation and it's it's brought to uh to life

569
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: rather nicely in the show. Should we take a break

570
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: and then come back to talk more wax? Let's do it?

571
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: Thank alright, we're back. So we talked about the pop culture,

572
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: the end of it, the genre film end of this situation.

573
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: But let's talk a little bit about the idea of

574
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: of wax and magic wax and in ancient magic with

575
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: with a focus on the human form. So years ago

576
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: we did uh that many years ago, what a few

577
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: years ago, we did an episode titled The Tears of Ray,

578
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: all about the ancient Egyptian art of beekeeping and the

579
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: various uses that the ancient Egyptians had for wax and

580
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: for honey, both of which were considered that the tears

581
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: of the god Ray. And we chatted with author Jeane

582
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: Kritzky about it because he had written this fabulus book

583
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: titled The Tears of Ray and uh and certainly we

584
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: encourage you to check out that episode to hear that interview,

585
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: but we're also going to refer back to some of

586
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: what we discussed concerning wax in that episode. All right,

587
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: So Egyptian physicians would use bees wax to treat wounds.

588
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: They would also give you a wax amulet to burn.

589
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: As we discussed already, it burns brightly, it burns up

590
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: completely symbolically and by extension magically. You know, the ideas

591
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: it consumes the illness or the thing that is created

592
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: in its likeness is now just magically evaporated from the

593
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: world through fire. Yeah, and apparently this is not something

594
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: that only happened in ancient Egypt. There there have been

595
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: traditions in a number of different religions. I think in

596
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: in pre Christian Rome there were also like cases of

597
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: people burning wax effigies of saying organ of the body

598
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: or something like that to try to get a blessing

599
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: from the gods or to defeat an illness of some kind. Uh.

600
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: And and it seems to be there's something about the

601
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: way that the wax would disappear completely that made it

602
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: seem more magical. Right, yes, you know, well we'll get

603
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: into that in more detail. But but certainly you see

604
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: that in the pre Christian tradition and then as an

605
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: element of Christianity with the use of votive candles um.

606
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: But but yeah, the Egyptians were super into it. They

607
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: used the wax, these wax for for a number of

608
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: different purposes. I mean, they used it isn't isn't adhesive.

609
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: They also used it as an embalming agent, a light source,

610
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: and an artistic medium. So already we can see the

611
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: idea of wax being used in many cases in physical

612
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: contact with the flesh of the living and the dead,

613
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: and also and also is something out of which to

614
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: form likenesses of living flesh. Um. But but there were

615
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: a number of magical connotations here as well, and part

616
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: of that I think comes down to the and and

617
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: certainly uh Jean Chritsky made this argument that a lot

618
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: of it comes down to the particular properties of wax.

619
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: It's it's malleable, it's insoluble in water, it doesn't discolor

620
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 1: and doesn't lose shape after being molded into its desired form,

621
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: and in that respect, wax figures can last for centuries.

622
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: But also if you place it in the sun, it's

623
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: color can change, which Kritsky believes might have been highly

624
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: desirable as well, given the importance of the god Ray

625
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: and the and the Sun in Egyptian mythology. So it's

626
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: almost like the god Is is continuing to work his

627
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: magic on the products of his of his hidden industry, right.

628
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: And then of course there's this idea that it leaves

629
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 1: no ash behind, that it burns cleanly and almost magically. Apparently,

630
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: the the Salt Papyrus describes how wax quote could be

631
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: used to ensure the destruction of Seth, the god of confusion,

632
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: disorder and violence, and then order of Osiris. So you'd

633
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: simply make a bees wax likeness of your enemies, and

634
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: you would burn them to kill the name of Seth. Now,

635
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: the very nature of these likenesses or figurines would seem

636
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: to suggest that we're probably not likely to possess a

637
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: lot of them, right, Yeah, that's apparently one of the issues.

638
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: If it is a like a small statue that's meant

639
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: to be burned and consumed, they're not going to be

640
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: that many that remain. But still we see plenty of

641
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: other wax sculptures that apparently had other uses wax ambulance

642
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: and whatnot, that show up um in the remains of

643
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: ancient egypt Um. And then there are also various stories

644
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: as well. For instance, there's a Twelfth Dynasty myth that

645
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: tells of a priest by the name of Webinair, which

646
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: always sounds a bit like I always read it and

647
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: I picture Webinar in my in my head, But it

648
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: isn't that a terrible word? I want to purge Webinar

649
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: from my mind. I wish I didn't know it. Well now,

650
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of life, right. But at anyway, this

651
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: particular priest made a wax crocodile, also using herbs and spells,

652
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: and he threw it into a pond where his life's

653
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: lover was bathing. It came to life, swallowed the lover,

654
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 1: and then vanished. A week later, he called the croc

655
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: up from the depths, and then he touched it and

656
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: the animal turned back into a wax model, disgorging the lover.

657
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: The pharaoh watched all of this as had happened and decided, well,

658
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: actually the lover should die. So the model was transformed

659
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: into a croc again, ate the lover again, and then

660
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: left for good. Make up your mind, so anyway, that's

661
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 1: certainly check out Gen Kritzki's book if you want more

662
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: about the ancient Egyptian use of wax and honey. But

663
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: but basically the idea is there were a lot of

664
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: magical ideas about what waxes, and I think it can help.

665
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: These ideas can also highlight some of just the universal

666
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: aspects of wax that make it attractive to the human imagination. Yeah,

667
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: one of the things we didn't even really get deep

668
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: into here, but also worth looking up. You know you've

669
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: never seen him before. Um uh, look up the the

670
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: Fiume mummy portraits. These are some some of the most

671
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: striking paintings I think that that are extant from the

672
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: ancient world. I mean, just like it's hard to believe

673
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: the level of color and detail that's still visible on

674
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: them given how old they are. Um and a lot

675
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: of these paintings were made with a process that was

676
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: able to preserve the color of the paint because the

677
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: painting incorporated wax, like instead of just regular paint, it

678
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: used something called incaustic painting, which I think is where

679
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: you you mix bees wax together with your pigments and

680
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: this produces a type of painting that is you know,

681
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: more durable over time, which is which is interesting because

682
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: one of the critiques and the criticisms is often made

683
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: against wax based art is that it is it is

684
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 1: so impermanent, the idea that is just going to melt away.

685
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: It's not going to stand the test of time. Uh clearly,

686
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, as we've discussed so far and we'll continue

687
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: to discuss, there are there are a number of examples

688
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: of wax art that has stood the test of time totally.

689
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: And yes, once again, if you have never looked up

690
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: the fire mummy portraits, that they are absolutely worth a look.

691
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: It's just shocking. So if we fast forward to medieval Europe.

692
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 1: We we see a world where where wax still has

693
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: is important for a host of reasons, including the use

694
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: of wax tablets, seilence candles, torches. You know, although the

695
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 1: basic material uses for wax you might expect, but also

696
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: they became useful in the creation of death masks. Man,

697
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: I love a death mask. It's a it's an interesting

698
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: you know, I think complex topic because it comes down

699
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: to that big question, how do we remember the dead? Uh?

700
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: You know, because as with all of our memories, memories

701
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: of faces are subject to change, erasure, elaboration and more, uh,

702
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: you know, and plus their their differences in neural abilities

703
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: to summon visual images. To today, we have photos and

704
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: we have videos to help us maintain the likeness of

705
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: the deceased. But there was a time when, you know,

706
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: other than painting, um and and other artistic traditions. You know,

707
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: what were you going to do? Well? Like, certainly, if

708
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: wanted a realistic depiction of an individual's face, Uh, you

709
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: only had so many options. One of those options would

710
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: come to be, at least for some members of society,

711
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: the death mask. I mean, one of the most interesting

712
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: things about it to me, I guess is the question

713
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: it raises of um does one want to be remembered

714
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: as one looked at the time of death? You know,

715
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: like is that the image of you that should be preserved. Yeah,

716
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: that is a difficult question to answer. I mean, that's

717
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: ultimately one that that probably comes up in um considerations

718
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: of even modern funeral um traditions. You know, certainly, if

719
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: your body has been embalmed, you're not going to be

720
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: uh laid out to look like you did at the

721
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: moment of death or anything so ghastly, but so it's

722
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 1: gonna be your body at that final state of life.

723
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: Like if you are an older individual, it is going

724
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: to be your aged body, not your youthful um you know,

725
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: vigorous body, cetera. Like it's a very common practice now

726
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: even at you know, an open casket funeral, like people

727
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: can come and visit the body as it looks in death,

728
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: but very often there will be a photograph or a

729
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: number of photographs, like right there beside the coffin of

730
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: the person younger, you know, when they when they were

731
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: in their prime. So yeah, I don't know that I

732
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: would necessarily want to be remembered exclusively based on how

733
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: I looked after death. But I mean, I guess that

734
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 1: was often the best time to get in there and

735
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: and make a cast of the thing. Uh. You would

736
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: first of all, you would see even back in Roman days,

737
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: you would see whax sometimes used to preserve the features

738
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: of a deceased person for the purpose of of modeling

739
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: or sculpture, just to you know, to to sort of

740
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: keep it all together long enough to to model a

741
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: copy of it. But if you're going to create a

742
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: straight up death mask based on a person's face, you're

743
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: gonna need to create a mold. Um. Uh. And plaster

744
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: was often used, just as plasters used today for for

745
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: facial casts. You know. So certainly everybody's seen a a

746
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: makeup f X documentary at this point and seem that

747
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: performed on your your your favorite actor, uh, you know

748
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: or two. But um, but on top of using plaster,

749
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: wax could also be used. I was looking particularly at

750
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: iris I J. M. Gainsum's Death Mass Unlimited, which appeared

751
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: in the British Medical Journal in nine five uh and

752
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: point out the they would sometimes pour wax over the

753
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: features and these would often the resulting um death mass

754
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: that they created would would then be used as a

755
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: source for use in other artistic works. But by the

756
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, um, we saw a change. The mass became

757
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: sought after in and all of themselves. The creation of

758
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: this life like um face uh, and the resulting plaster

759
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: or metal version of the face was used as an

760
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 1: object of remembrance in and of itself, not merely as

761
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: a model for other treatments. That's interesting. I wonder if

762
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: that has anything to do with changing attitudes around the

763
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: same time toward I don't know, like objective accuracy and

764
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: the capturing of images. Say, like, you know, also in

765
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds were getting the first photography as opposed

766
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: to portraiture. Yeah, yeah, this is a good point. It's

767
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: it's it's the difference between the Yeah, the painting that

768
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: you have commissioned and perhaps had some insight into exactly

769
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: how you are represented, and then just the abstract reality

770
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: of the plaster cast that is made of your face.

771
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: After you die, you know, you're not even around to say,

772
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: can we can we do something about these eyebrows here? Can?

773
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: I would like this mole removed? It said, right, like, nope,

774
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: this is what you um what what you act is

775
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: what you get. Well, yeah, I mean, it's like in

776
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: the modern era, we tend to think a photo of

777
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: a person is somehow more real than a painting of them,

778
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's somehow more realistically captures what they looked like,

779
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: that was the real them. And I guess you could

780
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: probably say the same thing about a death mask versus

781
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: you know, when a somewhat interpret did sculpture. Right now, now,

782
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 1: the face is ultimately only one part of the scenario

783
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: here and what we'll come back to it. But there's

784
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: also this this rich history of anatomical wax replicas as

785
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: it concerns organs and other parts of the body, you know, hands, etcetera. Yeah,

786
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: and we were reading a really interesting paper about this

787
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: by a scholar named ROBERTA. Balestri erro in the Journal

788
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: of Anatomy called Anatomical Models and wax venuses Art masterpieces

789
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: or scientific craft works. And Robert I really liked this

790
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: paper that I thought this was so interesting. It was

791
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: all about the history of of how human anatomy has

792
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: been rendered in wax sculptures and to what degree those

793
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: sculptures incorporate elements of or are considered examples of fine art. Yeah,

794
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful paper. It's available in full for free

795
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: online no paywall, and it has it also has illustrations

796
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: of these work, has photographs of the various wax works

797
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: that the author is referring to. Now, one of the

798
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: areas that ballestri Errow begins with is going back to

799
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: burnable effigies of wax, and the author notes that pre

800
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: Christian votive offerings quote could be of any kind, but

801
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 1: often reproduced parts of the human body, representing healthy or

802
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: diseased organs. Now, one thing that blestri Arrow points out

803
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: in this particular paper is how between the thirteenth and

804
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: seventeenth century of Florentine and foreign nobles in Florence would

805
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: commission life sized colored wax figures of themselves, which were

806
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: then dressed in clothes. They would you know, you could

807
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: give them wigs and basically create a stand in for

808
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: yourself that would just hang out in church as an

809
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: act of devotion. Um, this this is so, this is

810
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: so weird, this is amazing. You remember the episodes we

811
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: did a few years back about religious technology. So you

812
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 1: would have, for example, the prayer wheel. You know that

813
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: in a way, this is trying to create a machine

814
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: that can accomplish a religious or or supernatural objective by

815
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: doing prayers for you at a greater rate than a

816
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 1: person could. But I also wonder if there's some sort

817
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: of vague idea of religious technology here, where if you

818
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: can create a good enough likeness of yourself to put

819
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: in the church, it's almost as if you can accomplish

820
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: being there praying all the time while being in your

821
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: actual physical body somewhere else and doing other things. Yes,

822
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: it is like it. It's it's really hard to even

823
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: kind of fit this in your head because on one hand,

824
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: this seems like the kind of thing Homer Simpson would

825
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: do in an episode, right, like try to put a

826
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: wax version of himself in church so that he doesn't

827
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: have to go um. But then it also again we

828
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: have to think about the magical ideas about wax, the

829
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: idea like what happens when you create a life like

830
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: version of yourself, especially when there's already this history of

831
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: creating sacred objects out of wax. Um. Yeah, it's it's

832
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: ultimately really trippy stuff. Now, the tradition here seems to

833
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: have in part involved out of that death mass creation

834
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: practice as well, because this would have been the treatment

835
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: befitting a regal face in death, but hey, why not

836
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: in life as well? If a funeral wax body could

837
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: stand in for a corpse in a coffin, then why

838
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: not stand in for the living body as well? Why not?

839
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: In in a way like stand in is a like

840
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: an additional antenna for the human soul. Oh yeah, and

841
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: and unless we skip over that too quickly, I mean

842
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: another thing Balustri Arrow talks about in her paper is

843
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: the idea that say, if you go to a I

844
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: think it would be like a seventeenth century or sixteenth

845
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: century funeral in France, you might expect to find a

846
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: wax sculpture of the dead person. Yeah, how strange. Yeah,

847
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: I mean in a way it gets right back to

848
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: what we were talking about. Do I want everyone to

849
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: see my old body? Uh there in the casket? How

850
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: about a wax version of me that can be uh,

851
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: you know, a little more beautified. Let's put that on top.

852
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: That's exactly what you would see. But we should get

853
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: back to these figures in the churches, because this is

854
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: this is just too good. So you would have a

855
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: rich person would commission a wax sculpture of their body

856
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: that could be put in the basilica in the church

857
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: to just live there. Basically, yes, and there would be

858
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,439
Speaker 1: multiple figures that would populate the inside of the church,

859
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: alongside wax models of organs and the like, and also

860
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 1: some non wax models. But apparently wax was quite popular

861
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: and in this practice continued, especially in Florence in a

862
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: few other areas, at least until Leopold the Second banned

863
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: the practice in seventeen eighties six. The author writes, quote,

864
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: These boaty, as they were known in the Florentine vernacular,

865
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: were present in nearly all churches in Florence, but in

866
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: the Church of the Santissima Annunziata they became a major feature,

867
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: turning the sanctuary into an enormous museum of wax figures

868
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 1: of all types, including body parts as well as whole figures.

869
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: This gets even weirder in a minute, but I'm going

870
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,959
Speaker 1: to hold off for a second. That's right, because into

871
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: the Medici family, the House of Medici. I was looking

872
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: at a book titled Medici Women by Gabrielle Langdon. That is,

873
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: I think the deals you know predominantly with with women

874
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: in the powerful House of Medici family, the Italian banking

875
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: family and political dynasty of the time. But there's a

876
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: section and they're talking about how the Medici family used

877
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: boti um that they were first of all, to drive

878
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: home these figures were not meant to be burnt in

879
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: the church. They were there to hang out. They were

880
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: there too as a magical presence in these particular churches. Uh.

881
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: And there they could last for decades and were, as

882
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: Langdon describes them, ex voto centers in these churches. And

883
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: by ex voto we mean a religious offering given in

884
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: order to fulfill a vow. But more importantly the author

885
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: rights here. They made quite an impact on anyone who

886
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: saw them, and they served to reaffirm just Medici domination

887
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 1: over politics, uh, and also to to drive home their

888
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: divine favor over that of their enemies. Well yeah, I

889
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 1: mean you're putting like a like a secular powerful person

890
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: in effigy inside the house of worship. Yeah, I mean,

891
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: I mean, just imagine how grotesque that would be today.

892
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: I mean I would not surprise me if it were

893
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: to type plus today also, just given human nature has

894
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: not changed that much. Uh, sadly, but but but yeah,

895
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: just you go into church and here is a member

896
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: of the Medici family in wax Uh. This is almost

897
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: like a religious icon in the church. Adding to that,

898
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: what if it could kill you, because there's a great

899
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: passage and so Also another thing we were reading was

900
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: this book chapter in a book called Disguised Deception and

901
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: Trump Lloyd Uh Interdisciplinary Perspectives, and it was a chapter

902
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: by an artist and scholar named Catherine Heard called uneasy

903
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: Associations wax bodies outside the Cannon. And so Heard is

904
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: also talking about this same church, the Basilica of Santissima

905
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: Nunziata in Florence, and she writes, quote today none of

906
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: the six hundred vote of Santissima and Nunziata are known

907
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: to survive. The church was partially cleared in sixteen sixty five,

908
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: when the number of accumulated vote had become so great

909
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: that they had to be suspended from the ceiling of

910
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: the church to accommodate their volume, and poorly secured vote

911
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: plummeting into the midst of parishioners at prayer had become

912
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: a regular hazard. The remaining sculptures fell victim to the

913
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: spirit of the Enlightenment during the eighteenth century, when they

914
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: were unceremoniously relegated to an outdoor courtyard of the church,

915
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: left exposed to the elements to decay until they were

916
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: finally melted down and made into candles. Oh can you

917
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: imagine how weird and grotesque that courtyard became there? But

918
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: over a while like that, that would be a great

919
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: scene for a horror movie, given the number of of

920
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: of Italian horror films um and indeed it at least

921
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: one example of a of a wax horror film. There's

922
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: a wax mask that Dario Argento and Lucio Fulcy were

923
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: both involved in the creation of. That is on my

924
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: to watch list. I'm super excited to watch this film,

925
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: so it's possible they get into some of this. But

926
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: if not, like this is prime territory, somebody make a like,

927
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 1: like a like a seventeen century horror film about these things. Yeah, yeah, wow, Argento,

928
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: Fulci and wax figures. That sounds like the most disgusting

929
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: thing I could possibly imagine. Just I'm just picturing the textures. Yes, yeah,

930
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: the trailer. I've only seen the trailer so far, but

931
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: it looks it looks amazing, But I don't want to

932
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: pass over either. The idea of the wax figure suspended

933
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: from the ceiling in the church, which could fall and

934
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: crush you during worship. Right like that, the place has

935
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: become like a cracker barrel of of of wax figures

936
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: instead of antiquated farm equipment. Well, I guess I want

937
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 1: to be fair. I don't know if the wax figure

938
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: would be heavy enough to crush you, but it could

939
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 1: at least injure you. It would disrupt your religious experience,

940
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: I would think, I would think so. So this whole

941
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: situation apparently took on a kind of cult flavor um,

942
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, which is one of the reasons that it's

943
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 1: eventually eventually banned. Um. But not only could these boatie

944
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: be revered and the individual be revered through their wax likeness,

945
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: they could, you know, they could certainly stand in positively

946
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: for powerful uh members of the Medici family, but they

947
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: could also be the target of violence UM, violence that

948
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: often reverberated with a very real sort of danger. Langdon

949
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 1: writes about this, pointing out that writers of the time

950
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: described this as someone having been quote slaughtered in wax,

951
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: or even as a murder uh. You know. They would

952
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: describe the act of destroying the wax likeness of the

953
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 1: individual a murder. Well in the fifty three House of Wax,

954
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: I reiterate Vincent Price thinks his wax figures are as

955
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: human as as he is, and he says he would

956
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: rather die than see his artworks destroyed. Yeah, so so again.

957
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: Here in these examples we see wax standing in for

958
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: flesh and taking on magical properties. The likeness becomes the

959
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: thing or the person. They are present in the church.

960
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 1: They are devotees to God in wax. And if the

961
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 1: effigy is then dragged out into the street and then

962
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: stomped into the dirt, h then the violence is all

963
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: that more direct and physical. Now. One thing Balustri Arrow

964
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: points out in her paper is that wax by it's

965
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: by it's very like natural texture just lends itself so

966
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: well to realism and and an unsettling level of realism

967
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: like it it mimics flesh in a way that naturally

968
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 1: becomes very unpleasant to people. Yeah, Like you think of

969
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: why people love marble sculpture so much is because you know,

970
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's like my flesh, except it is

971
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: it is solid, it is resistant, and it is so

972
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 1: perfect and and and flawless, but within wax, especially if

973
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a like a mold situation, you know,

974
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: you can capture every detail, every wrinkle and poor can

975
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: be created. It is flesh like. It can be colored,

976
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: it can be molded. And one thing that this is

977
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: something I wasn't even thinking about until I read it here,

978
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: is that you know, you have actual organic materials that

979
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: can be combined with the wax, actual body hair, actual hair, teeth,

980
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: and nails can be kind of melded into the substance,

981
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: which even it just just serves to blur that boundary

982
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 1: between wax and flesh. And she also points out that

983
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: these are the these very lifelike qualities in wax as

984
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: a medium, that this would be part of the reason

985
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: that it was abandoned by the artistic community anyway, not

986
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 1: not by crafts people. Uh. During the rise of neo

987
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: classic Yeah, Neo Classicism was a It was an aesthetic

988
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: movement in the Western arts and literature that began in

989
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: roughly like the mid eighteenth century. But it consisted basically

990
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: of a revival of interest in classical antiquity, so you

991
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: would start to see artwork of the time much more

992
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: favoring the style of the Greek and Roman arts, architecture,

993
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: theater and that kind of thing. It's often described as

994
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: a move away from the highly ornamental Rococo style that

995
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: came before it, and it favored, you know, the elegant

996
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: symmetries of the Parthenon or ancient ancient Greek sculpture, all

997
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: of which have a sort of a simplicity to them

998
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 1: that is not there in the wax sculpture. Like, the

999
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: wax sculpture goes against this because of how close to

1000
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: real it can get, Like the realism actually counted against

1001
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: it for the aesthetics of the day. Yeah, and and

1002
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: I think, or I suspect anyway that a lot of

1003
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: what we just we didn't consider now in terms of

1004
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: the uncanny Valley effect would have also been present with wax,

1005
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,959
Speaker 1: like the like wax just allows you to get so

1006
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: close to reality, you get into that potential that that

1007
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 1: arguable realm of of of close but not quite close

1008
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: enough or so close but not perfect that it unnerves me.

1009
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: Is the art real or not? You know? I can

1010
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: look at a at a at a marble sculpture, I

1011
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: can walk through a sculpture garden, and yes, these are

1012
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: beautiful and life like in the craftsmanship. The artistry involved

1013
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,919
Speaker 1: is just amazing. Uh, but I don't wonder if it's real.

1014
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not accusing that the people of having, you know,

1015
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: taking the corpses of their victims and use them as

1016
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: models for these stone works of art. Yeah. And one

1017
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: of the things addressed in in a couple of these

1018
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: sources we've been talking about definitely in Blister Arrow and

1019
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: and and Catherine Herd's chapter is the question of whether

1020
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 1: wax sculptures are art or not, or you know what,

1021
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: whether people consider them even potentially to be art. There

1022
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: there's some kind of a there's a kind of bias

1023
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: against the media. Absolutely, So we're gonna take a break,

1024
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: but when we come back, we're going to dive into

1025
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 1: this very topic. But we're also going to get really

1026
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: into the topic of anatomical wax creations. Thank thank Alright,

1027
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: we're back all right now. While we've been talking about

1028
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: how there's sort of a mixed history of how wax

1029
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: sculpture has been received as art, there is one area

1030
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: in which wax sculpture was was and sort of always

1031
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 1: has been a big hit, which is in scientific and

1032
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: anatomical renderings of the human body. So Balustri Errow writes,

1033
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: quote with the advent of neo classicism, these very qualities

1034
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: made the realistic nature of wax models seem repulsive, and

1035
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: the practice of artistic sero plastics, and that's wax sculpture,

1036
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: basically sero plastics, meaning wax started a slow decline. From

1037
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: an artistic point of view. It virtually disappeared in the

1038
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, surviving only in a minor way for votive uses,

1039
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: for example, by the creation of ex voto objects and

1040
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: statues at times containing relics of saints and martyrs, and

1041
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: in secular wax works such as those displayed at Madame

1042
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: Tousseaux's museum in London, as we've already talked about. But

1043
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: it seems like maybe Madame Tousseaux is is a little

1044
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: bit ghosh, she goes on. In contrast, the use of

1045
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: wax modeling techniques for didactic and scientific purposes increased considerably

1046
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: for the study of normal and pathological anatomy, obstetrics, zoology,

1047
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: and botany. So here waxes finding its natural home. Maybe

1048
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: maybe it's not always perfectly received in the art world,

1049
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: but it definitely has a role to play in science. Yeah,

1050
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: now and now. Of course, there's there's always been this

1051
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: connection between art and science, certainly certainly in pre photographic

1052
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: and cinematic days, because if you were a naturalist exploring

1053
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: the world, if you were if you saw a new

1054
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: species of bird, uh, you would need to draw that bird,

1055
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: you would need to have a record of that bird, uh,

1056
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: even paint that bird, etcetera. Likewise, in the in the

1057
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: we see this relationship between the study of human anatomy

1058
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: and the pursuit of art, where oftentimes the artist is

1059
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: the anatomist and the anatomist is the artist, and sometimes

1060
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: it's difficult to say which is the primary occupation, which

1061
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: is the primary endeavor totally, but this brings us to

1062
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: the sixteenth century. UH. During this time we saw a

1063
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: renewed interest in human anatomy and it ends up sweeping

1064
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: across Europe. Human cadaver has proved the most essential um

1065
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: source and exploring the mysteries of human anatomy uh and

1066
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: A and anatomical drawing was still an essential tool as well,

1067
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: but the two dimensional medium had its limitations. Access to

1068
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: cadavers was also not universal, and as we've discussed, they

1069
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: were in short supply at times. So you know, people

1070
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: were afraid of their bodies being stolen by the grave robbers. Yeah,

1071
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: if you were buried too close to like the Edinburgh

1072
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 1: Medical College, you could very very possibly have your corpse

1073
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 1: stolen for a dissection there. I mean, this was the

1074
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: age of dissections. In order to educate and to study,

1075
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: you know what, you've got to know what the organs

1076
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: inside the body look like if you're going to do medicine,

1077
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 1: do surgery and all that. But sometimes bodies are hard

1078
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: to come by, especially in the summer. Yes, and you know,

1079
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: I don't think I'd really thought about this, but the

1080
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: author points out that, yeah, this practice becomes increasingly taxing

1081
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: on human revulsion during the warmer months of the year

1082
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: in many regions. You know. So, um, so it makes

1083
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: sense to have some other kind of three dimensional representation

1084
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: that is not an actual dead body. Yeah. Now, she

1085
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,919
Speaker 1: points out one way around some of the cadaver limitations

1086
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: was doing things to actual bodies to sort of uh,

1087
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: to make them last longer, to some way copy parts

1088
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: of them. You had some procedures like that that came along. Yeah,

1089
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: there was an injections that involved colorless or colored preserving

1090
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: fluids composed of things like alcohol, mercury, different metals, and

1091
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: also wax as well. Uh. She writes that these methods

1092
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: produced results that that we're you know, we're good, but

1093
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 1: that that the preparations were not long lasting and that

1094
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: they subsequently deteriorated. Uh. So it's still not going to

1095
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: be as good as say a model made out of wax.

1096
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: So why not make a grotesque, perfectly rendered dead body

1097
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: with all the tissues in place that never rots exactly.

1098
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: I mean, as we've discussed, it's the perfect medium for

1099
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 1: creating human flesh and creating in a way that is lifelike,

1100
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: and even tweaking it a bit, you know. And so

1101
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: you had numerous anatomous and artists, uh, from the sixteenth

1102
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: century onward. That we're working in wax, creating informative models

1103
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: of human anatomy, often in miniature. And I have to

1104
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: say I've been eyeing examples of this for years. I

1105
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: used to do a blog series for Stuff to Blow

1106
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com back when we had a blog,

1107
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 1: where I would basically I would just I would go

1108
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: to Getty Images and I would find cool images of things,

1109
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: works of art, things from museums, and I would find

1110
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: a reason to post about them. And I ran across

1111
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of wonderful images of various wax and anatomical models,

1112
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 1: and I was always thinking and back in my mind

1113
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: that I should do something about these. Never got around

1114
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: to it. But this is this is like such a

1115
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: fascinating area off where where medicine and art combine, where

1116
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 1: they where they intermingle. I would also say, this is

1117
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: a place where you see some shocking examples of like

1118
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: real talent and bad taste coming together. You know, the

1119
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 1: kind of thing that a lot of people like today

1120
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: where you would be interested in grotesque, like intentionally kind

1121
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: of like gross and morbid artwork, as I know you

1122
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 1: and I in some various ways actually are. Uh. You

1123
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: don't see as much of that back in the day,

1124
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: but you do see it in anatomical renderings of the

1125
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: human body in wax. Yes. Now, one of the early

1126
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: figures that the other points out here was a character

1127
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: that is known as Cigoli. Their full name was Lodovico Cardi,

1128
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 1: who lived fifteen fifty nine through sixteen thirteen. And um

1129
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: they created this small statue of of an in Courche.

1130
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 1: I believe it is, which is the first known wax

1131
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: anatomical anatomical model. It was Slash is a miniature anatomical

1132
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: human like like d fleshed clearly not made from a

1133
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: cast because it's the size of a doll, but it's

1134
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: detailed in three D. It shows like the details of

1135
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: human muscles um. Interestingly enough, I wasn't able to find it.

1136
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: I believe it is in the in the possession of

1137
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: a museum today, but I couldn't find a photograph of it.

1138
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 1: But I found UH an artistic depiction of it, and

1139
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 1: it again is depicted. Is just this miniature humanoid without

1140
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: skin that you can hold in your hand, that you

1141
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: can point out the various muscles on UH, that you know,

1142
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 1: designed to be used as an as an educational tool.

1143
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 1: I love it. I do wish we had a photo.

1144
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: I wish you could get like a barbie of it

1145
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: and you know, give it to kids for Christmas. Now,

1146
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: later in the seventeenth century, we saw, really I think

1147
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: an individual that could probably be considered the grandfather of

1148
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: a lot of the thanatomical wax art and as a

1149
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: Sicilian wax artist by the name of Zoombo Gaetano Guglio

1150
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: Zoombo who was apparently quite an interesting character. He was

1151
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: an abbot who initially took on religious themes and his

1152
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: artistic work. But then uh, his Blestriarro describes his interest

1153
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: turned darker. He began to just consider death and decay

1154
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: and to sort of brood on death and decay, and

1155
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 1: he created a series of compositions known as the Theaters

1156
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: of Death, which were apparently quite realistic. There is the plague,

1157
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: the triumph of time, the vanity of human glory, and

1158
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 1: of course the syphilis fun I mean, yeah, Zombo was

1159
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: clearly highly talented and extremely morbid in his fascinations. And

1160
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: you can look up examples of his work. There's a

1161
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: one in particular, if you if you even just go

1162
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: to the Wikipedia page for Zoombo. Uh, there's a picture

1163
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: of of the plague, which is just these wax corpses

1164
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 1: heaped u. But also there's this there's this artistic energy

1165
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: to them, like there's movement to it, there is emotion

1166
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: to it. Um. It's it's quite a site to behold,

1167
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: but it's certainly not for all tastes. But Zoombo was

1168
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 1: not only working with religious artwork. He eventually did turn

1169
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: his hand to actual scientific anatomical sculpture when he teamed

1170
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,479
Speaker 1: up with a French surgeon named Guillaume de new Yes

1171
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 1: met Danu and together they created anatomical models that they

1172
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: apparently sold, though by seventeen hundred they stopped working together

1173
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: due to some sort of famous argument. Yeah, so Zoombo

1174
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: moves to Paris and with the support of the royal court,

1175
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: he collaborates with many other dissectors and physicians and an

1176
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: animus and creates anatomical waxes until he died the following year. Um.

1177
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 1: But all told, he was um. He was only active

1178
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: in the anatomy game for something like six years total.

1179
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: It really kind of came towards the end of his life,

1180
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: but his works were highly influential, enabling wax anatomical modeling

1181
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 1: to then evolve and ultimately expand outside of Italy and

1182
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: France throughout Western Europe. This opened the door for other

1183
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: wax anatomical artists to make a major splash, such as

1184
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 1: Giovanni Manzolini, who lives seventeen hundreds through seventeen fifty five,

1185
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 1: who worked with his wife Anna Morandi who lived seventeen

1186
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 1: sixteen through seventeen seventy four. UH. She outlived him by

1187
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: many years, and she actually continued this work after her

1188
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 1: husband's death and was quite successful in her own right,

1189
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 1: traveling to various institutes and foreign courts. Her anatomical models

1190
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 1: were very sought after, and she also she but but

1191
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 1: her work was was again um artistic and anatomical. For instance,

1192
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 1: she created a self portrait of herself that is still

1193
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: around today. You can find images of this online. Uh,

1194
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 1: and it is it's it's beautiful, but it is also

1195
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 1: definitely a work of wax artistry, and as well discuss

1196
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: later that does come with certain baggage, like we're sort

1197
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 1: of there's a predisposition I think for us to find

1198
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 1: it unsettling. Well, I mean, yeah, I guess this may

1199
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,560
Speaker 1: be some form of subjective bias speaking, but I feel

1200
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 1: like it's almost universal to regard these things that as

1201
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 1: even when they're beautiful, they're also grotesque. So this art

1202
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: continues to spread and then ballestri Ro provides an excellent

1203
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 1: and concise history of it all um getting into more

1204
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 1: detail than we we can get into here, but that

1205
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: eventually arrives in England as well. You have um, you

1206
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 1: have an actual um English wax anatomyst by the name

1207
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 1: of Joseph Town who lived eighteen o eight eighteen seventy nine.

1208
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 1: And apparently part of the reason that it was so

1209
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 1: lately established in England was first of all, due to

1210
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: the greater availability of cadavers um prior to laws that

1211
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,759
Speaker 1: restrained the practice of obtaining them. Yeah, we got dead bodies.

1212
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 1: We don't need wax sculptures here, you know. Yeah. But eventually, yeah,

1213
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: you have Joseph town showing up, and he would go

1214
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: on to create something like a thousand different wax anatomical

1215
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: models during his career that ultimately went to medical centers

1216
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 1: around the world. Now there's an example of Towns work

1217
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 1: that is shown in a photograph in uh, Billustri Arrow's paper,

1218
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,720
Speaker 1: and it looks straight out of Hell Raiser. I mean,

1219
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: I guess actually what it is is that the art

1220
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 1: style of the hell Razor movies is clearly copied from this. Yes, there,

1221
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 1: So this this is where we're getting into a lot

1222
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 1: of artistic consideration. Uh And Ballestri Arrow gets into this

1223
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: a good bit um because on one hand, you have

1224
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: the Italians who were sort of the the originators of

1225
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: this sort of art, along with you know, the French

1226
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,759
Speaker 1: and then you have the English coming along and doing

1227
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 1: their own spin on it. And uh, there are some

1228
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 1: some definite differences. There's some side by side images in

1229
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: this paper that really pointed out. But this is where

1230
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 1: the author really sums it up. Um, she writes, quote.

1231
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 1: Italian waxes are imbued with a real sense of beauty.

1232
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 1: The splendid Italian models of Les Pacola Florence are graceful

1233
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 1: statues that do not seem to belong in the dissecting room.

1234
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:54,520
Speaker 1: Specimens from northern countries such as the UK, the Netherlands

1235
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 1: or Germany are usually more realistic, almost brutal, preferring anatomical

1236
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 1: accuracy rather than artistic flair. One of the major differences

1237
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:06,599
Speaker 1: between the Italian and English wax models is the fact

1238
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,080
Speaker 1: that the former are alive, whilst the later are lifeless. Yeah.

1239
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 1: She highlights this in a number of different ways that,

1240
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: like the the Italian artists were much more concerned with

1241
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:22,520
Speaker 1: making the wax anatomical models not disgusting and even sometimes

1242
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 1: kind of lively and happy looking and seductive somehow, whereas

1243
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 1: the stuff you'd get with Robert Town or some of

1244
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 1: the other artists in England or Germany would be more

1245
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 1: just kind of a like it wasn't it wasn't really

1246
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: worried about being grotesque, and wasn't trying it wasn't trying

1247
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 1: to comfort you and say like look at this, look

1248
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,800
Speaker 1: at these happy eyes. Yeah. She describes Towns some of

1249
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 1: Towns Waxes as being quote practical, crude, true to death.

1250
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:53,879
Speaker 1: But you know, from my own part, looking at various examples,

1251
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:56,320
Speaker 1: I do think it's fair to add that Towns work

1252
01:10:56,840 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: is beautiful in its own right. Uh. You know, there

1253
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,560
Speaker 1: there's certainly more of a brutal realism to his works,

1254
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:05,640
Speaker 1: But one I think could argue that some of the

1255
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:09,400
Speaker 1: Italian works are actually more unnerving because there's this weird

1256
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 1: spark of life to them. You know, like they there's

1257
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 1: something in their eyes you feel. You look at them

1258
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 1: and you're like this, this human being has no skin,

1259
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:21,040
Speaker 1: and yet they are, you know, glancing across the room.

1260
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:25,879
Speaker 1: It's something whereas towns work looks like a dead body,

1261
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 1: but as partially flayed body, but as seen through you know,

1262
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 1: the eyes of someone with an appreciation for the beauty

1263
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 1: of death. Yeah, maybe maybe it is a little bit

1264
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 1: more troubling if, like, you know, you're taking apart the

1265
01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 1: torso of a wax sculpture to see its internal organs.

1266
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 1: But it's like reclining in a chair in a in

1267
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: a way that almost resembles classical painting, and it's got

1268
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:53,759
Speaker 1: this brightness in its eyes, like let's go for a picnic. Um,

1269
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:57,559
Speaker 1: there's there's another whole area that she gets into, the

1270
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 1: meta chief venus um, basically touching on the popularity of

1271
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:06,599
Speaker 1: anatomical venuses during the nineteenth century. These would be artfully

1272
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 1: sculpted out of wax, reclining female nudes that also had

1273
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,240
Speaker 1: dismountable torsos, so you could go up to them, um,

1274
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 1: and you could like open them up like the hood

1275
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 1: of a of a vehicle, you know, and then look

1276
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 1: at the wax organs within see how human anatomy works

1277
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: under the skin. And there would often be a fetus

1278
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 1: in the womb as well, um, which apparently you know

1279
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 1: this this wouldn't have really meant the inside wouldn't have

1280
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:34,719
Speaker 1: matched the outside that had reflected what was what little

1281
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 1: was known about, uh, you know, actual um fetal development

1282
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 1: at the time. Uh. And by the way, over at

1283
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,719
Speaker 1: Atlas Obscura, a website that I've loved for for years,

1284
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 1: but basically is devoted to helping you find weird wax

1285
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: museums in your area, wherever you are. There's a great

1286
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen article from Morbid Anatomies Jolanna Epstein about

1287
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 1: anatomical venuses and where you can find them today, and

1288
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 1: and apparently she was setting out to chronicle all the

1289
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 1: ones that she could she could travel to. It's titled

1290
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 1: an Ode to an Anatomical Venus. Waxing poetic on the

1291
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: uncanny a lure of eighteenth century uh, dissectible women. Now

1292
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:17,599
Speaker 1: at this point, let's get back to the question then

1293
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 1: is it art um? Because clearly, as we've discussed like this,

1294
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 1: especially with the anatomical art, there is this intermingling of

1295
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 1: the artistic and the you know, the purely scientific, uh

1296
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: you know. And certainly we even see a divide within

1297
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: the tradition with the idea that like the French and

1298
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:39,560
Speaker 1: Italian version is more in line with artistic values, whereas

1299
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:43,640
Speaker 1: the English and German models are are less. So this

1300
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 1: is a question that that blestri Erro gets into in

1301
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 1: the article as well. The apparently there's this there's long

1302
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:55,400
Speaker 1: an attitude against wax art. It was considered more of

1303
01:13:55,400 --> 01:14:00,599
Speaker 1: a craft, more devoted either to morbidity or two anatomical study.

1304
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: And apparently this survived well into the twentieth centuries, where

1305
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,640
Speaker 1: you had critics like E. H. Gombridge, who was not

1306
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 1: familiar with who expressed that wax works were a quote,

1307
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 1: situated outside the limits of symbolization. So I guess the

1308
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 1: idea is that they're just too realistic to do the

1309
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: things that art is supposed to do. Like it's just

1310
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 1: too close, like there's not enough there's not enough distance.

1311
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean it seems arbitrary to me. Yeah,

1312
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:32,639
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't seem to line up with with

1313
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 1: what we know about art photography, But I don't know.

1314
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 1: Then again, I'm not an expert on the history of

1315
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 1: of of art theory and so forth. But it seems

1316
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 1: like the argument that that Gombridge was making here would

1317
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 1: not be the same sort of argument you would make

1318
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: about photography. Uh. There there's plenty of very artistic photography

1319
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 1: that is about capturing the stark reality of a situation,

1320
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: right that. But I'm not sure that you know the

1321
01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: limits of symboliz symbolization really show up in that. Yeah,

1322
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to be unfair to this critic,

1323
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: But part of me suspects that there's just a sort

1324
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: of instinctual revulsion that many people feels. The same reason

1325
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 1: there's so many house of wax horror movies and that,

1326
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 1: and that is it finds difficulty being articulated as an

1327
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 1: aesthetic uh, as like a formal esthetic criteria. So instead

1328
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 1: it just gets criticized as like well it's too realistic

1329
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, uh yeah. But as we mentioned the

1330
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 1: rise of neo classism earlier, apparently, especially with the rise

1331
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 1: of neo classism and art, wax was often considered a

1332
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 1: lower medium, a fragile medium, and so the art was

1333
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 1: rather it was either you know, expelled from the art

1334
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 1: world or left the to the domain of the anatomus.

1335
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:46,520
Speaker 1: And of course you know crude wax museums, which apparently

1336
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 1: emerged out of the wax effigy tradition. To come back

1337
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: to that, Westminster Abbey, for instance, has quite a collection

1338
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 1: of royal wax effigies dating back to Edward the Third

1339
01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 1: who died in thirteen seventy seven. Um. So this is

1340
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:04,600
Speaker 1: where we get the Madame Tussau's um um tradition. You know,

1341
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 1: the idea ultimately that we should put we should have

1342
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 1: representations of royal people or failing that, uh, famous people

1343
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,719
Speaker 1: or infamous people, like the modern Royalty of the day,

1344
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: the Paris Hilton's of the day, or at least the

1345
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,639
Speaker 1: mid too early two thousands. Well, I mean, yeah, so

1346
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 1: Madame Tousseau's is going to be full of celebrities, right,

1347
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:28,040
Speaker 1: it'll have it, It'll have a I remember, I think

1348
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:31,520
Speaker 1: I remember them having like a really good Pierce Brosnan

1349
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 1: as James Bond wax sculpture. Um. And I think sometimes

1350
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 1: the celebrity sculptures get like attacked or vandalized. I don't

1351
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 1: know if that has something. You know, somebody you don't

1352
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,719
Speaker 1: like Pierce Brosnon so you knock his head off or whatever. Um. Yeah,

1353
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's getting into the magic of wax. Then

1354
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 1: wax effigies. What do you do with the wax effigy.

1355
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 1: It's either there to revere the individual or to lash

1356
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 1: out against them. Yes, But the other thing I was

1357
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 1: getting to is that it does seem somehow like there

1358
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: is a very clear natural draw to let's do some

1359
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:06,599
Speaker 1: serial killers, and let's do like a dungeon with you know,

1360
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:09,640
Speaker 1: tortures and stuff. Like that. Yeah, I mean, well that

1361
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: was that was a long standing part of Madame Tussau's

1362
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: in London. Madame Tussau, by the way, lived seventy eighteen

1363
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:21,679
Speaker 1: fifty was a French artist who studied under a Swiss physician,

1364
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 1: Philippe Curtius Um. But one of the main attractions at

1365
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 1: Madame Tousseau's was always the Chamber of Horrors, which was

1366
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:34,839
Speaker 1: again full of grave robbers, serial killers and burglars. Uh Incidentally,

1367
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper was was never part of it because

1368
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 1: Tusseau had a policy against representing individuals whose identity and

1369
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: appearance was unknown. That's an interesting principle, but yeah, so

1370
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:48,600
Speaker 1: this is how we get Obviously, the thing that the

1371
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 1: that it's most famous for is the Chamber of Horrors,

1372
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 1: which is that seems to be confirmed by those reports

1373
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:57,719
Speaker 1: from nineteen five that when Madame Tousseau's is burning down,

1374
01:17:58,120 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 1: the people in the streets are not saying, oh, I

1375
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 1: hope that the sculpture of King George is okay. They're

1376
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: asking how's crippen? Yeah, what about the what about the

1377
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:10,599
Speaker 1: Norfolk Strangler? We've saved Burke? How about hair? Make sure

1378
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:14,599
Speaker 1: both we must reunite Burke and hair don't let them burn. Yeah,

1379
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 1: I mean sadly the Chamber of Hours, apparently closed in

1380
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: is no longer a part of Mendam Tusso's at least

1381
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: that that that according to the materials I was looking at.

1382
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 1: But but certainly the Chamber of Horrors in Wax museums

1383
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 1: is one of the major influences on uh, you know,

1384
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:37,760
Speaker 1: on on horror cinema in the onward. This idea of

1385
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: the wax museum as a place where unsavory characters are

1386
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 1: recreated in wax uh and where haunted or unnatural things

1387
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 1: may be going on. It's an interesting mixing of two

1388
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:53,400
Speaker 1: very different streams that that feel odd when they get

1389
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 1: into each other. One is the standard fascination with violence

1390
01:18:57,120 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 1: and pain and death and morbid topics and all that,

1391
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 1: and then the other is that, well, it's a museum

1392
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 1: and it's nonfiction, so it's almost like it's educational. Yeah,

1393
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's weird, it's it's also just really um

1394
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting, I think thought experiment to take

1395
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 1: these wax movies and then take everything we've discussed here

1396
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 1: thus far and then try and figure out what is

1397
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 1: what is this in product saying about all the human

1398
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,479
Speaker 1: history with wax that came before it, especially what is

1399
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:31,599
Speaker 1: it saying about the anatomical history of wax models, and

1400
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 1: then the the use of wax models as stand ins

1401
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,679
Speaker 1: for human beings to be either revered or punished. Um,

1402
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 1: because I think we see shadows of all of this

1403
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 1: in these works, and all we also see treatments of

1404
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:46,880
Speaker 1: of wax as flesh, magical and transformative, wax as a

1405
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 1: meditation on both the preservation of human flesh. Because what

1406
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 1: are these uh, these these wax creepos often doing these movies.

1407
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,759
Speaker 1: They're preserving their victims and wax, but then also things

1408
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:01,439
Speaker 1: made out of wax they gotta burn. If you it's

1409
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:03,439
Speaker 1: like bringing a roll in a cannon on stage, you

1410
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:05,120
Speaker 1: bring out some wax in a film, You've got to

1411
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 1: melt some wax as well. Yeah, I mean, I think

1412
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:11,679
Speaker 1: it is not a standard trope that a person who

1413
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:16,200
Speaker 1: is an obsessively a devoted artist will eventually turn to

1414
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 1: crime and violence. But it is that if you're obsessively

1415
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:24,719
Speaker 1: devoted to wax artistry, you have wax crime in your future.

1416
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 1: That's just more people assume it's such a weird stereotype,

1417
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 1: especially again considering just how important this was, you know,

1418
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:35,720
Speaker 1: for for a long time, and just human anatomy and

1419
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 1: the understanding of the human body, like these were informative

1420
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 1: educational models that ultimately helped save lives trained surgeons without

1421
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:47,520
Speaker 1: the need for grave robbing or put honest grave robbers

1422
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 1: out of business. I've never thought about that, that that

1423
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 1: would be a great premise for like a for like

1424
01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:54,880
Speaker 1: a movie or something. You know, you've got a pretty

1425
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,080
Speaker 1: good grave robbing business going, but then somebody shows up

1426
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: at the local medical college with a what a bunch

1427
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:04,160
Speaker 1: of wax sculptures. Oh my god. Now you're like, what

1428
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? You've got to destroy them somehow

1429
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 1: or something. Oh man, So grave robbers versus wax master

1430
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 1: with all the possible shenanigans that could pop up, because

1431
01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 1: you know they're gonna be wax automatons. There are going

1432
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 1: to be uh, the disguise, the limit. There's so much

1433
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 1: a room for exploration here. Copyright Stamp Stamp hours. Yeah,

1434
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 1: you can't have it. I don't know. I'm just hoping

1435
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,320
Speaker 1: that there maybe someone out there is listening to this.

1436
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 1: The filmmaker or future filmmaker who will make the next

1437
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:41,400
Speaker 1: great Wax film. Uh, In which case, I think we've

1438
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:46,280
Speaker 1: presented a number of of wonderful historical and scientific anecdotes

1439
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 1: here that could be that could prove useful. All right,

1440
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 1: on that note, we are going to close the Wax

1441
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: Museum for the day, but certainly stick with us as

1442
01:21:56,880 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 1: we continue to explore Halloween related topic the entire month

1443
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: of October, maybe even longer. I don't know, who knows

1444
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 1: what the future will bring. In the meantime, if you

1445
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:08,800
Speaker 1: want to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow

1446
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 1: Your Mind, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts,

1447
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,360
Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. We just asked that you rate, review,

1448
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 1: and subscribe. Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio

1449
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get

1450
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or

1451
01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:24,639
Speaker 1: any other, to suggest topic for the future, or just

1452
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: to say hi, you can email us at contact that's

1453
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow

1454
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:39,920
Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more

1455
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,

1456
01:22:42,720 --> 01:23:00,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

1457
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 1: Has a farm back ba