1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,039 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey bessies. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: Today on the bright Side, economist Emily Oster is back 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: with more data driven research to help us feel empowered, confident, 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: and prepared as parents. So get your notepad out, because 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: today we are answering your biggest parenting questions from kindergarten 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: all the way through those tricky preteen years. It's Tuesday, 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 2: January seventh. I'm Simone Boyce. 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 3: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 3: Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 3: share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten your day. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: Danielle, I am so thrilled to have Emily Oster back. 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 2: She is like a balm for my struggling mother's soul. Oh, 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: I know you really love her, I really do. I 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: mean her work on parenting has just been groundbreaking and 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: revolutionary for parents around the world for over a decade. 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: What I love most about her. 17 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: Work is that it's grounded in science and data and 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: and so it takes a lot of the guesswork out 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 2: of it and also the shame too. I was actually 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: just having a conversation with my friend Alise Show over 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: the weekend about how Emily Auster's stance on screen time 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: has just been such a relief for us and just 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: made us feel so much less guilty. 24 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: About when our kids are in front of the TV. 25 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 2: Because she just says, if it's helping you be a 26 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 2: better parent, than do it. You know. 27 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 3: I was actually surprised when she said that, And I 28 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: think she has this unique quality of making everything feel 29 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: like it's going to be okay. 30 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: And as a person who's not a. 31 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: Parent yet, I've been so interested in everything that she's 32 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: had to say when she's on the show, So I 33 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: find that aspect interesting too. And I think one of 34 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: the reasons is she always comes from a data driven place. 35 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 3: She's an award winning economist, a professor of economics at 36 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: Brown University, and New York Times best selling author. She's 37 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: also the founder and CEO of parent Data, which is 38 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: a data driven guide to pregnancy, parenting, and beyond. 39 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and today we're digging into Emily's book The Family Firm, 40 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: and this one specifically focuses on that post toddler time, 41 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: the school aged years from kindergarten all the way up 42 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: until about the ages of eleven or twelve, right before 43 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: puberty kicks in. 44 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. 45 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: See Emily points out that once children start school, the 46 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: logistics around childcare and family time become complicated, and she's 47 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: so right. If you have kids in sports, you know 48 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: what I'm talking about. If you have kids who attend 49 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 2: multiple birthday parties on the weekend, you know what I'm 50 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: talking about. And even just getting everyone around the dinner 51 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: table together every night can be a challenge, And of 52 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: course this all gets compounded when there are multiple children involved. 53 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 3: So I always say that I have decision fatigue when 54 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 3: it comes to getting dressed in the morning. I can't 55 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: even imagine how tired all of the parents are with 56 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 3: all of these decisions you have to make. So Emily 57 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 3: has a framework for streamlining the many decisions that go 58 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: into parenting kids in the post toddler and pre teen phase, 59 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: and she's here to unpack it all with us. I 60 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: miss this conversation, but I'm really excited to listen in. 61 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: All right, Chelle, here's my conversation with Emily Auster. Emily, 62 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: welcome back to the bright Side. Thank you so much 63 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: for having me back. Emily, You've been here a few 64 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: times now. I feel like we have a shorthand I 65 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: can I can just be real with you right, go 66 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: right into it. 67 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: Let's just go right into it, Okay. 68 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: So I am really looking forward to this conversation today, 69 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: and I am so ready to get humbled by you 70 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: and all of your fabulous data. Because I am just 71 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: now entering the grade school phase. I don't really know 72 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 2: what to expect. I feel like I'm doing so much 73 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: wrong just now, and like I have a kid in TK, 74 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: so I am so here for all the knowledge that 75 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: you're going to drop on us. 76 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 4: Grade school is really fun and what's so interesting I 77 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 4: think about the distinction the sort of move from little 78 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 4: kids to bigger kids is like the problems are less frequent, 79 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 4: like you get into more of a rhythm, like things 80 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 4: are more predictable and almost more normal. But then when 81 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 4: things do come up there, they feel bigger and they 82 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 4: require more thought. And so it's like instead of like 83 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 4: every single day it's like fire, fire, firefire, It's like 84 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 4: everything is great and then all of a sudden, the 85 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 4: entire house is on fire. 86 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: All of once great. I'm so looking for to that. 87 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: But you can do it, and it's so rewarding when 88 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: you get right. 89 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: I met this woman on vacation one time, and I 90 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: think she saw me struggling with my kids, and she 91 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: was like, little kids, little problems. Big kids, big problems. 92 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: When we had a one year old, like a four 93 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: year old. 94 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 4: We were visiting some friends and they had these older 95 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 4: kids and their kids were in high school, and my 96 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 4: husband and I were like, oh, it's going to be 97 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 4: so relaxing, Like, you know, these people like their kids 98 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 4: could put their their shoes on themselves, you know, they 99 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 4: put their jackets on, they like they could drive. And 100 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 4: then they were explaining they were like, you know, we 101 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 4: thought it would so great when our kids are big, 102 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 4: and now we've learned, like, no problem can't be solved 103 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 4: by talking for three hours at night about the social 104 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 4: dynamics of my school. 105 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: It's totally right. 106 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 4: It's like, on the one hand, you know, it is easier, 107 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 4: and on the other hand, it's it requires time. 108 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're becoming they're becoming becoming humans, fully fully 109 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: developed human. 110 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: It's like you could mess up more. Yeah, that's true. 111 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 2: Okay, So in your most recent book, The Family Firm, 112 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: you offer some new perspective, and it kind of surprised me, 113 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: to be honest, you say that once kids move into 114 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: elementary school, the data isn't as cut and dried. I 115 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: was surprised to hear that from you. Why is that 116 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 2: the case. 117 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 4: Is surprising to hear from me, because, as you know, 118 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 4: I love data, and when kids are a little there 119 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 4: is a lot of data to answer some of these 120 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 4: basic questions that we have issue as our kids get bigger. 121 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 4: In this way I talk about in family Firm is 122 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 4: that kids get more different from each other. So often 123 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 4: in data, what we're able to say is what's the 124 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 4: average effect of this? So a common question people ask us, 125 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 4: like what's the best kind of school? We can answer 126 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 4: the question, you know, what, on average, what kind of 127 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 4: school has higher test scores, or what on average kind 128 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 4: of school produces more high school graduates. 129 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: But to ask what kind of school is right for 130 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: your kid? 131 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 4: That becomes way more complicated as kids are older, because 132 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 4: the differences across kids start to become more important than 133 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 4: the average. And so we find ourselves in a situation 134 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 4: where even if you said for the average kid, this 135 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 4: school is better than that other school, you're much less 136 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 4: likely to be able to conclude from that that this 137 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 4: school is the right school for your kid. It's much 138 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 4: more about like figuring out fit figuring out what your 139 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 4: kid needs, what's the likely effect of different schools on 140 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 4: different kinds of kids, or how much the kids need 141 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 4: different kids need different amounts of sleep, and knowing the average, 142 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 4: which is something we're really good at in data. It 143 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: can be helpful for drawing some boundaries, but there are 144 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 4: a lot more places where you'd say, this really isn't 145 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 4: enough information to inform me about what to do with 146 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 4: my kid. 147 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So factoring all of this in that these averages 148 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: can help us, but they don't necessarily represent the nuances 149 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: of each child. 150 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: What do we do now? Where do we turn now? 151 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 4: In the family firm, I talk about the importance of 152 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 4: deliberate decision making. I think so much in this space 153 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 4: is about being smart about our choices and about how 154 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 4: we use data. So talk about a four step process 155 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 4: where you start by framing the question and whatever is 156 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 4: your problem, asking what are the options I have? People 157 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: are not that good at really asking the concrete question 158 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 4: that they have about their kids, So what are my 159 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 4: actual choices? And then taking some time to collect the 160 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 4: information you need to af fact find and some of 161 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 4: that is looking for data, some of that is asking 162 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 4: what's logistically feasible for our family. 163 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: What would we have to give up if we did this. 164 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 4: Activity or that activity, you know, if we send our 165 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 4: kid to private school, what else would we be doing 166 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 4: with that money, Like really trying to think carefully about 167 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 4: what a decision means for your family, and then only 168 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 4: then sort of turning to making the decision and trying 169 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 4: to use all the information together at once to make 170 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: a choice. And then there's a fourth f which is 171 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 4: follow up. I think people are probably too reluctant to 172 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 4: revisit their decisions. So we make choices and then we're like, Okay, 173 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 4: I've made that choice forever. But you know, like a 174 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 4: soccer season is one season. If you do travel soccer 175 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 4: and it sucks, you shouldn't do it again, even if 176 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 4: you did it once. And I think we're not always 177 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 4: that good with bigger kids at revisiting decisions. So whether 178 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 4: that particular decision framework works for people or not, I 179 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 4: think the idea of approaching these less frequent but more 180 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 4: important decisions as like it's my job to figure out 181 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 4: to do this. I want to approach this in a structured, 182 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 4: organized way so I can make a decision that I 183 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 4: feel good about and I will say there. People will 184 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 4: say that, like, I want to do this so I 185 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 4: can make the right decision. You cannot guarantee you will 186 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 4: make the right decision. All you can do is make 187 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 4: the best decision that you can with the information you have. 188 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 4: That's all that's in our control. And I think that's 189 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 4: a pretty important thing to remind yourself, because you could 190 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 4: decide to send your kid to some school and it 191 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 4: could not work for them, and that doesn't mean you 192 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 4: made the wrong choice. That's why there's the opportunity to revisit. 193 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 4: But it means you know, you've learned something new and 194 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 4: takes a little pressure off ourselves and also just I 195 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 4: think helps us recognize the things we can control and 196 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 4: the things that we can't. 197 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: There's a phrase is that I kind of say to 198 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: myself during decision making periods, choose your choice, which is 199 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: what you're saying. Yeah, like, stand by the decision and 200 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: keep choosing it every day, keep. 201 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 4: Choosing it every day, but then give yourself the opportunity to, 202 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 4: like not to every day. I mean, there's such a 203 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: tricky thing here because you don't want to read this 204 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 4: at your decision every day. 205 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: You don't want to every day be like, ah, is 206 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: it right? Is it not right? 207 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 4: You know, we need to make choices and then move forward, 208 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 4: and also give ourselves the opportunity to say, there is 209 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 4: a point at which I want to look back and 210 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 4: say was this the right choice? Do I want to 211 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 4: make a different choice in the future. So holding both 212 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 4: of those things at the same time is a challenge. 213 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 2: I love this four F framework that you have set up. 214 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: Can you give me an example of how you've used 215 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 2: this decision making framework in your own life, Like, is 216 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: there a big decision that you can think of that 217 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: you really approached deliberately and found positive results? 218 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: Okay, so give you an example. 219 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 4: An opportunity came up that my older kid is very 220 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 4: interested in doing, like a volunteering opportunity. But it happened 221 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: during dinner, and a sort of core family value for 222 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 4: us is like having dinner together. But at the same time, 223 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 4: like volunteering is also a core value, and so this 224 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 4: was a place where we kind of sat down. We asked, Okay, 225 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 4: the questions pretty obvious, should she do this or not? 226 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 4: And then we sat down. We thought about the schedule, 227 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 4: and we thought about, Okay, what are we giving up? 228 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 4: How will we make this work logistically, when will she eat, 229 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 4: will she be able to get enough sleep? Will we 230 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 4: get the other things done? Like, let's actually deliberately map 231 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 4: it out. And it's an interesting example because there's no 232 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 4: data like other than sleep is important, so we want 233 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 4: to make sure we're not getting in the way of sleep, 234 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 4: but there's no other data there. It's really about like, 235 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 4: let's figure out whether this works together inside our family. 236 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: And then we decided, okay, she can do it. 237 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 4: She did it for a few weeks and it was like, okay, 238 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 4: let's see how this is working. So it's sort of 239 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 4: a little bit into the natural cadence of how you 240 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 4: make choices, even you know, relatively small choices, but choices 241 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 4: like that are important because if every day there was 242 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 4: an opportunity to do something during dinner, and every time 243 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 4: we were like, oh, it's just one day. It's just 244 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 4: one day. It's just one day. Like pretty soon you're 245 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 4: never having dinner together. So not allowing individual small choices 246 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 4: to sort of go unnoticed, but to think about how 247 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 4: they contribute to everything else. I think that's that's kind 248 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 4: of part of the key. 249 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: We need to take a quick break, but we'll be 250 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: right back with Emily Aster and we're back with Emily Aster. Well, 251 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: I want to get into some of the big topics 252 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 2: that I think a lot of parents who might be 253 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: listening have questions about, especially when it comes to elementary 254 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: and middle school. I know that we're kind of whole 255 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: the data loosely here, but what do the data generally 256 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: say about sleep? 257 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: So this is a. 258 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 4: Place where actually I do think the data is quite good, 259 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 4: and what it says is that sleep. 260 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: Is very important. 261 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 4: I mean, sleep is an extremely interesting thing because every 262 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 4: animal sleeps, like every every animal, including like animals that swim, 263 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 4: and it must therefore be so so important because it's 264 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 4: the stupidest adaptation, Like if you said, like from an 265 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 4: evolutionary standpoint, like we're going to evolve to like lay 266 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 4: around for like eight hours and be totally out of it, 267 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 4: Like that's terrible. That's a great opportunity to be eaten 268 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 4: by a tiger. And so it must be that it's 269 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 4: so important. We don't really know why, but it's very important. 270 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 4: And most kids are not getting as much sleep as 271 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 4: they should, so it's sort of typical kid in elementary 272 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 4: the middle school needs like nine to eleven hours of 273 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 4: sleep at night. 274 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: That's a lot. Yeah, I mean as they get older, 275 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: maybe eight to ten. 276 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 4: But if you sort of think about that, like let's 277 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 4: say your kid's getting up at seven go to school. 278 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: Which actually would be pretty late. 279 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 4: You know, if they're getting up at seven to go 280 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 4: to school and you want them to get ten hours 281 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 4: of sleep, they need to go to bed at nine, 282 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 4: and that's early for a lot of middle school kids. 283 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 4: But you know, and we have to kind of adapt 284 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 4: around that. There's a lot of variation. But I think 285 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 4: just sort of pointing out to parents that like sleep 286 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 4: is actually something that's core to your kids functioning. I mean, 287 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 4: we have studies like randomized trials where they will do 288 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 4: sort of on off design. So they have kids where 289 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 4: for a week they have their parents put them to 290 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 4: sleep in the normal time. 291 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: For a week they have them put them to sleep 292 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: an hour later, so. 293 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 4: They're missing just an hour of sleep, and at the 294 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 4: end of the week, they like do testing on them, 295 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 4: and the kids do worse on the test. Their memories 296 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 4: are worse, their parents say their behavior is worse. Like 297 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 4: and that's like four days of one hour less sleep. 298 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 4: You bring college students into a lab and you keep 299 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 4: them up all night and then you give them tests. 300 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 4: They think they did great on the tests, but they didn't. 301 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 4: That's like the greatest fact. The college students are like 302 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 4: I did amazing on that test, Like that, actually it 303 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 4: did terrible. You didn't sleep. So for me, this all 304 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 4: sort of says like we really want to just think 305 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 4: about how we're prioritizing sleep and what it's going to 306 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 4: take to make sleep like an important part of our 307 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 4: kid's life. 308 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: My oldest son, he kind of struggles with sleep right now. 309 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: He kind of like lays in bed at night, has 310 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: a hard time falling asleep, and then I think he might, 311 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: you know, get up during the night a little bit. 312 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: Have you picked up any tips or tricks along the 313 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: way to encourage healthy sleep habits and kids? 314 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 4: So I think there's like two pieces. One is for 315 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 4: kids in your son's age group. There's a kind of 316 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 4: like getting there to be a consistent bedtime where kids 317 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 4: stay in their rooms. There's like an opportunity to generate 318 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 4: good sleep habits. But that's really less about external factors 319 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 4: and more about like deciding what the sleep routine is 320 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 4: and setting up the sleep routine and implementing the sleep routine, 321 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 4: and that's more for the younger kids side, I think 322 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 4: the issue when we get into like you know, particularly 323 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 4: sort of later in elementary and middle school, is actually 324 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 4: the activities kids are doing outside, like extracurriculars, start getting 325 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 4: in the way of sleep. So it's less like my 326 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 4: kid is coming out of their room fifty times for 327 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 4: a glass of water. 328 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: You know, my thirteen year old is not doing that. 329 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 4: It's more like kids are at dance practice until ten 330 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 4: thirty at night, and then they haven't you know, done 331 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 4: their homework, and then it's and so I think that's 332 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 4: the piece where when the kids are younger, we have 333 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 4: an opportunity to set up a good, solid set of 334 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 4: sleep habits, but we have to keep investing in that 335 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 4: and thinking about not ruining sleep as our kids get big. 336 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, is there any link between sleep training and sleep 337 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 2: habits when kids are in elementary and middle Not really. 338 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: If you look at the impacts of sleep training, they're 339 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: there's no evidence of any dangerous from sleep training, but 340 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 2: the benefits of sleep training when you look at kids 341 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: at like five and six, the difference doesn't really show 342 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: up between kids who have been sleep trained in kids 343 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: who have not been. So it's really the benefits of 344 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 2: that are in younger ages. 345 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: Interesting. 346 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: I know this is about elementary and middle school, but 347 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 2: I do have to say I am very pro sleep training. 348 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 2: It's been amazing. Okay, moving on to nutrition. Nutrition is huge, 349 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: and we're also hearing a lot about nutrition in the 350 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: news right. 351 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: Now, a lot of that. It's coming up, it is, 352 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: it's coming up everywhere. 353 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: It is now a huge part of the political conversation 354 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 2: in this country. What do the data say about choosing 355 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: the best foods for our kids and how nutrition impacts them. 356 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 4: Nutrition is really hard to study because the choice of 357 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 4: what to eat for both adults and kids is very, 358 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 4: very very wrapped up in many other things. So if 359 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 4: you look at one of the characteristics of people who 360 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: eat a lot of broccoli and we don't eat a 361 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 4: lot of broccoli, They're different in a million other ways, 362 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 4: other aspects of their diet, exercise, smoking, income, education. So 363 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 4: when we look at the kinds of studies that are 364 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 4: often used in nutrition, it's very hard to learn anything 365 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 4: from them. Having said that, there are a few kind 366 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 4: of like big picture things which we can piece together. 367 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: You know, a diet should contain vegetables. 368 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 4: Fiber is an important nutrient, not eating a huge amount 369 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 4: of sugar. Those are kind of the things that show 370 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 4: up the most directly as beneficial when we talk about kids. 371 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 4: I think there's like two other more specific things, and 372 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 4: one is that a lot of taste is formed in childhood. 373 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 4: I always hesitate to say that because it sounds like 374 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 4: it's your responsibility if your kids, it's you're going to 375 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 4: be your fault. 376 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: But it's also an opportunity. 377 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: So there's an opportunity to expose your kids to foods 378 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 4: in childhood, which will influence the foods like later. 379 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: The other thing is that kids get super picky. Almost 380 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: all the. 381 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 4: Kids have a phase of some significant amount of pickiness, 382 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: typically starting around eighteen months or two years and going 383 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 4: until they're six or seven. And that's a really hard 384 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 4: spaege for parents because kids can get so picky that 385 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 4: like they'll just be like, I don't want to eat anything. 386 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 4: And they also don't need quite as much food as 387 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 4: they did when they were like fifteen months old, is 388 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 4: they're growing more slowly and so sometimes they just eat 389 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 4: nothing and parents will react by saying like, oh, I 390 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 4: have to like start giving them, you know, nugget that 391 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 4: every milk is the only thing that they will eat. 392 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 4: There's something wrong with nuggets, but that reaction then they 393 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 4: learn that if you don't eat dinner, you get nuggets. 394 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 4: So it's again a place where it's sort of worthwhile 395 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 4: thinking about what are we trying to accomplish, what are 396 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 4: we trying to get to, how much do we care 397 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 4: about this particular issue versus other issues, and then thinking 398 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 4: about how much you're going to invest in like making 399 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 4: it work. 400 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: Earlier in our conversation, you shared one of your family values, 401 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: which is sitting around the dinner table together. And I 402 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: love the idea of using values as this compass through 403 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 2: which to process deliberate decisions. Why is that such a 404 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 2: core value for you and your family? 405 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 4: You think it's because, given our schedules, that is the 406 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 4: time that we are able to have dedicated family time. 407 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 4: So a lot of literature, a lot of studies about 408 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 4: family dinner, most. 409 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: Of which are linked to good outcomes. 410 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 4: I think the truth is a lot of that link 411 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 4: is not about the dinner aspect of it, per se, 412 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 4: but just because you're spending time with kids is important, 413 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 4: and you know family dinner is one opportunity for that. 414 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: I love that. Let's talk about homework. 415 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 2: I colloquially hear parents of elementary school and middle school 416 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: children complaining about the amount of homework that comes home 417 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: with them. Where is the line what's healthy and what's 418 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: too much? 419 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 4: Homework has been up and down a lot over the years. 420 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 4: It seems to go up when we're feeling like we're 421 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 4: behind other countries. So there was like this peer in 422 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 4: the fifties where it was like, we're behind Russia and 423 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 4: we have to have more homework to catch up with 424 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 4: their space program. There is some evidence that homework can 425 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 4: be good. It can reinforce learning in school. It can 426 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: be an opportunity for kids to develop executive skills. So 427 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 4: the ability to take a thing home at the end 428 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 4: of the day, to do it, to put it back 429 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 4: in your backpack, to return it to school. That's actually 430 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 4: a skill separate from being able to do math, which 431 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 4: is also very valuable for life. And to the extent 432 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 4: that homework does those things, that's good. When we start 433 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 4: talking about, you know, how much is the right amount 434 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 4: of homework in elementary school, and there's a lot more debate, 435 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 4: and most of the evidence would suggest you don't really 436 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 4: need very much homework to accomplish the thing is it's 437 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 4: actually accomplishing, and people start telling me, you know, my 438 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 4: kindergartener has an hour of worksheets every night, Like there's 439 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 4: just no evidence that that would be helpful, and that 440 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 4: is not really what a kindergartener should be doing in 441 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 4: the evenings every day. 442 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: So there's a there's a balance here. It's time for 443 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 2: another short break. We'll be right back with economist and 444 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 2: New York Times bestselling author Emily Oster. 445 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: And we're back with Emily Oster. 446 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: All right, it's time to address the elephant in the room, 447 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: and that is screens and phones and technology. Okay, here 448 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: we go. Let's go into the gauntlet here. I know 449 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: that we've talked about this with you before. 450 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: It's like one of the topics that is every age group. 451 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: It's relevant for it's the topic. It's the topic. 452 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: I was just talking about it the other day with 453 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: a friend and your name came up, and I was like, listen, 454 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: I just do what Emily Oster tells. 455 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 4: Me to do. 456 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: And she told me that I could put on the 457 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: TV wall I'm cooking dinner, okay, and she said that 458 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: that's totally healthy. So I just am so grateful for 459 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: your voice in this conversation. 460 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: But this is the big topic. 461 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: So there are lots of different ways that you can 462 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 2: approach screen time and social media and phones. 463 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: Let's go to the research. What have you learned? What 464 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: are the through lines that emerge? 465 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 4: So one through line is that when you are doing 466 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 4: things on screens, you are not doing other things. So 467 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 4: I think that's a really important through line that hits 468 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: at all ages is thinking about screens or phones or whatever, 469 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 4: not necessarily as good or bad, but thinking about them 470 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 4: as substituting for something else. And you know, if your 471 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 4: kid is on their phone or on their screens instead 472 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 4: of doing their homework, or instead of going outside, or 473 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 4: instead of doing something else they're responsible for, or instead 474 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 4: of sitting at dinner with you and talking to you, 475 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 4: then that is not good because it's substituting for something 476 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 4: that would be better. If your kid is watching television 477 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 4: or on their screens during a time that they would 478 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 4: other advice, be screaming at you, or you know, when 479 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 4: you're getting something done so you could have that nice 480 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 4: center together. 481 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: Like that's a different story. 482 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 4: So I think one piece of this is just thinking 483 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 4: about the substantution, thinking about what we call the opportunity 484 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 4: costs is like a through line everywhere. There's a part 485 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 4: of this conversation that I think really has to distinguish 486 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 4: the kind of world of television and videos that our 487 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 4: younger kids are thinking about. Then morphsenter the world of 488 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 4: social media and phones with older kids. There's a much 489 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 4: more challenging discussion because it's not only the time that 490 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 4: it takes from other things, but it's also you know, 491 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 4: is there something about social media itself that's bad for kids? 492 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 4: Is there something about mental health that is being affected 493 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 4: by this? And that's a place where you know, our 494 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 4: evidence isn't perfect. It seems pretty clear that some kids 495 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 4: benefit from Instagram and some kids really don't benefit from Instagram. 496 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 4: And sort of getting back to an earlier part of 497 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 4: the conversation where I said, like, data isn't that helpful 498 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 4: because you have to think about your kid. This is 499 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 4: very much that case where like we could probably say 500 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 4: that like, on average, for the average kid, it's probably 501 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 4: slightly negative in terms of, you know, mental health. I 502 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 4: would say that's what the study, the small number of 503 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 4: studies and this would suggest, but that is more or 504 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 4: less totally uninfformative, when like it's really good for some 505 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 4: kids and really bad for other kids. You got to 506 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 4: figure out what's appropriate for your kid. 507 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: When it comes to phones. 508 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: I'd love to talk through how we can use your 509 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 2: four step framework to make a deliberate, informed decision about 510 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: when to give your child a phone, whether to give 511 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 2: them a phone at all, and what kind of phone 512 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: to give them. 513 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: How would we do that? 514 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 4: Okay, So I would start by framing the question and 515 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 4: asking what am I deciding? So it's not should I 516 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 4: give my kid a phone or not? Because first of all, 517 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 4: a phone is not well defined, and or not is 518 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 4: also not well defined. So I would encourage people to say, like, 519 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 4: you know, should I give my kid a smartphone now? 520 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 4: Or should we revisit this conversation in six months? That's 521 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 4: it well defined question. Or should I get my kid 522 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 4: a dumb phone now, like a flip phone now? Or 523 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 4: should we revisit this conversation in six months? Or should 524 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 4: I give them a flip phone or a smartphone? Something 525 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 4: where it's like two concrete things you can actually compare against. 526 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: So the specifics really matter. 527 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 4: Specifics really matter because you won't be able to fact find, 528 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 4: You're not going to be able to evaluate the question 529 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 4: unless you actually have a well defined question. Then I 530 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 4: would sit down and think about both what is the 531 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 4: data say, which is what do we know kind of 532 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 4: about the evidence on phones? We talked about some of that, 533 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 4: but then also like why are we doing this? So 534 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 4: what is the reason to get this phone? And what 535 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 4: are we getting out of this? So my kids they 536 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 4: want to call their friends, I need to call them, 537 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 4: they need access for school whatever. It is like thinking 538 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 4: about why are we having this conversation now? And then 539 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 4: you make a decision with your kid, and I think 540 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 4: this piece of it the sort of second stage. 541 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: Eventually you are going to get at your kidaphone. 542 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 4: So at some point you're going to decide, Okay, we're 543 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 4: not going to wait anymore, We're going to get our kidaphone. 544 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: And this is your opportunity to set boundaries. Okay. 545 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 4: So part of the issue is that, because every kid 546 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 4: is different, until you give your kid that smartphone, you 547 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 4: actually probably aren't really going to know how they're going 548 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 4: to react. So is your kid going to find the 549 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 4: phone very difficult to pull away from? Are they going 550 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,239 Speaker 4: to feel bad about the group chat? Are you going 551 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 4: to give them access to social media? And if you do, 552 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 4: how are they going to feel about that. None of 553 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 4: this stuff is super predictable. So this is an opportunity 554 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 4: to sit down with your kid and say, this is 555 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 4: a trial. We're going to try this out. Here are 556 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 4: some restrictions you might put on it to begin with, 557 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 4: maybe you don't have social media at the beginning. Maybe 558 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 4: you only have a certain amount of time whatever it is, 559 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 4: and then you know, have a specific time you're going 560 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 4: to revisit. So when we eventually gave my kid a phone, 561 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 4: we were like, okay, we're going to give it to you. 562 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 4: You have it for three months, and at the end 563 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 4: of three months, we'll talk about how it went. And 564 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 4: we reserve the right to take the phone away at 565 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 4: any time and also to change the rules at any 566 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 4: time because we are. 567 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: In charge of this. 568 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 4: But we are for sure going to talk about it 569 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 4: three months and see how it's going. So it's like 570 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 4: such a hard moment, but like remembering, like you're in charge. 571 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 4: It's your job to help your kid figure out how 572 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 4: to use this, and that may mean giving them a 573 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 4: phone and then taking it away. That's okay, that's your job, 574 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 4: and they're going to say I hate you, and that's 575 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 4: your job is for them to tell you that they 576 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 4: hate you some of the time. 577 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: It's actually true. Yeah, no true statement has been said. 578 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: It's sort of too bad, but it's what it is. 579 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's really interesting that you talk about 580 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: involving the kid in that decision, like coming from the 581 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 2: household that I was raised in. I was not involved 582 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 2: in any decision making until I was eighteen years old 583 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: and out of the house. 584 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 585 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think this is the thing I 586 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 4: think is totally changed. I share your view, but I 587 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 4: think it's totally changed. There's a balance, right, sort of 588 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 4: you can involve your kid in this decision and talk 589 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 4: about what are the restrictions that you could still be 590 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 4: the boss. That's a hard balance to hold, but ideally 591 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 4: we talk about like authoritative parenting. That's sort of what 592 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 4: it is to kind of have your kid involved but 593 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 4: at the same time not have them be in charge 594 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 4: because you're the actual CEO of this small and medium 595 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: sized enterprise. 596 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: Yes, it's your family. I'm loving all these corporate analogies. 597 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 2: Emily. 598 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: It's very Emily meetings. You have your OKRs, you. 599 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 4: Know APIs, KPIs CAT, you have your APIs. 600 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: I don't know what any of these terms, it's very 601 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: hard to tell. 602 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: It's I don't know. Well. 603 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: In thinking about running your household like a business, a 604 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: lot of businesses operate within the confines of a value system, 605 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: and that's something that you talk about in your book. 606 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: How would you define a value system in this context. 607 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 4: Because a few different ways. So I talk about having 608 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 4: a mission statement. So I think as simple thing is like, 609 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 4: could you say what you're trying to do, like what 610 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 4: you're trying to accomplish in like one sentence. Another way 611 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 4: into that is to say, like what are our three 612 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 4: core values? What are the three things that are most 613 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 4: important one of our family, things like we follow through 614 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 4: on our commitments. 615 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: That's a core value and that you could sort of 616 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: come back to. 617 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 4: And be like, okay, but our core value is this 618 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 4: and so this is why we're going to do it 619 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 4: things like this. 620 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: But there's a broader sense. 621 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 4: You could think about values as like what are the 622 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 4: activities that are important to us? Which is a little 623 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 4: different than values, but I think reflects the fact that 624 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 4: your value should influence your behaviors, So like what is 625 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 4: something we want to make sure we do every day? 626 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 4: So thinking about being deliberate about what are the things 627 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 4: that are important, that's the core idea. 628 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: Do you feel like this approach has reduced friction for 629 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: you and your husband? 630 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 4: Yes, Friction is a very good word there, because I 631 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 4: think part of this is when you if there are 632 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 4: cases in which you disagree, you have to have some conflict, 633 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 4: And a lot of this is about sort of bringing 634 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 4: forward the conflict into a moment in which you're ready 635 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 4: to talk about it, rather than having the conflicts in 636 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 4: the moments that they're happening. If I think back, like 637 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 4: the first year of our daughter's life, of my first 638 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 4: kid's life, was really tough. It's tough on everybody's marriage, 639 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 4: but that was like, that was a hard year, And 640 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 4: I think a lot of that was that we had 641 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 4: not planned to have any of these conversations, but had 642 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 4: no idea what we were doing, and so then we 643 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 4: were constantly like arguing about small things when we should 644 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 4: have backed up and been like, okay, what, like we're 645 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 4: sort of disagreeing about some fundamental value, Well, we haven't 646 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 4: talked about that, and. 647 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: Now we're sort of arguing about that in the. 648 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 4: Context of discussing a nap, which of course is not 649 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 4: really the core problem at all. 650 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're both sleep deprived and you're tired. Yeah, 651 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: and it's a terrible time to be arguing. 652 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: Okay, Emily, before we wrap this up, we know that 653 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 2: you have been studying the data for over a decade. 654 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: What surprising new research has come out since you started, 655 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: and is there any additional insight you've gained from recent studies. 656 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 4: So I'll tell you about one recent study which goes 657 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 4: back to nutrition. It's about sugar. I like it because 658 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 4: it's informative, but I think it's also a very cool idea. 659 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 4: So I said, it's very hard to study dietary patterns 660 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 4: because of all the other things that are wrapped up 661 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 4: in people's choices about what to eat. So what these 662 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 4: guys did in this study is they look at this 663 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 4: episode in England where sugar was rationed. So after World 664 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 4: War Two, sugar was rationed for a pretty long time, 665 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 4: and then at some point, like one day, like in 666 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 4: September of nineteen fifty three, they took sugar off rationing 667 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 4: and then you could like have some much sugar as 668 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 4: you want, and the consumption of sugar per capita like doubles. 669 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 4: And so they have kids who spent the first years 670 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 4: of their life in like a low sugar environment, and 671 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 4: then kids who spent the first years of your life 672 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 4: in a much higher sugar environment. And then because this 673 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 4: happened like in nineteen fifty three, they actually have data 674 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 4: on these people when they're like sixty. So what they 675 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 4: see is being exposed to a lot of sugar when 676 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 4: you're young has impacts on diabetes and hypertension when you're old. 677 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 4: And so it doesn't just to like back up for 678 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 4: all the freaked out parents. It doesn't say you shouldn't 679 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 4: have any sugar. It just argues for some moderation and sugar, 680 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 4: which is already the kind of dietary advice that we 681 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 4: give parents. But it's a I think, a really interesting 682 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 4: example of where we can have some good data even 683 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 4: in a space where data is hard. 684 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: I feel so convicted by this right now because I 685 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: use sugar as leverage. I'm like, you'll get a little 686 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: treat if cooperate. 687 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 4: Everybody does that. That's how everyone in America. I got there, 688 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 4: bets to use the potty eminem's. 689 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: Get the body, you get an M and M. 690 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: I fed my kid toxic red dye skittles and now 691 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 2: he's potty trained. 692 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, the toxins and that are overrated. I would 693 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: say I love talking to you. 694 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: I was still so vindicated, Emily, Thank you so much 695 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: much for coming back on the bright side. 696 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, Ray. 697 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 2: Emily Austar is an award winning economist, Professor of Economics 698 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: at Brown University, and New York Times bestselling author. Emily 699 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 2: is also the founder and CEO of parent Data, a 700 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: data driven guide to pregnancy, parenting, and beyond. 701 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: That's it. 702 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 3: For today's show, Tomorrow, best selling author Gabby Bernstein joins 703 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 3: us to share her tips on setting intentions, finding balance, 704 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 3: and manifesting your dreams. 705 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 2: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect 706 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram 707 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 2: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and 708 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 2: feel free to tag us at Simone Boyce and at 709 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: Danielle Robe. 710 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 3: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 711 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 712 00:34:54,560 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.