1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:19,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm doctor Laurie Santos. 2 00:00:19,756 --> 00:00:21,396 Speaker 2: I'm Tim Harford, and this. 3 00:00:21,276 --> 00:00:24,396 Speaker 3: Is another crossover episode of my podcast The Happiness Lab. 4 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:28,876 Speaker 2: And my podcast Cautionary Tales. Laurie, last time I took 5 00:00:28,916 --> 00:00:31,316 Speaker 2: the lead, I told you a story about the tensions 6 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:34,716 Speaker 2: between everyone taking a vacation at the same time and 7 00:00:34,756 --> 00:00:38,796 Speaker 2: an idea from Stalin's Soviet union, where it was decreed 8 00:00:38,876 --> 00:00:41,476 Speaker 2: that workers had to stagger their days off, no matter 9 00:00:41,556 --> 00:00:43,956 Speaker 2: what that meant for missing leisure time with their friends 10 00:00:43,996 --> 00:00:47,556 Speaker 2: and families. So this time it's the return match, as 11 00:00:47,596 --> 00:00:50,556 Speaker 2: it were. So, what cautionary tale of happiness have you 12 00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:51,316 Speaker 2: got install for me? 13 00:00:51,916 --> 00:00:52,796 Speaker 1: Oh, it's a good one. 14 00:00:52,956 --> 00:00:55,356 Speaker 3: It's a story of how we're all biased towards action 15 00:00:55,676 --> 00:00:58,396 Speaker 3: and how we sometimes struggle to do less, especially when 16 00:00:58,396 --> 00:01:00,876 Speaker 3: it involves doing nothing at all. It's a tale that 17 00:01:00,916 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 3: will take us to where the blue skies start turning 18 00:01:03,236 --> 00:01:05,956 Speaker 3: to inky black, because today we're going to go to 19 00:01:05,996 --> 00:01:32,276 Speaker 3: the very edge of space. My story today involves one 20 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:37,796 Speaker 3: of my favorite American heroes, Major Charles E. Jaeger, as 21 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 3: a young fighter pilot in World War Two, Chuck not 22 00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:43,236 Speaker 3: only shot down a huge number of enemy aircraft but 23 00:01:43,316 --> 00:01:46,196 Speaker 3: also successfully evaded the Nazis when he was shot down 24 00:01:46,236 --> 00:01:49,676 Speaker 3: over occupied France. During his time on the run, Chuck 25 00:01:49,716 --> 00:01:53,476 Speaker 3: helped the French resistance attack German troops and even won 26 00:01:53,516 --> 00:01:56,196 Speaker 3: a medal for helping an American pilot cross the snowy 27 00:01:56,196 --> 00:02:00,076 Speaker 3: Pyrenees to reach safety in Spain. Chuck was just that 28 00:02:00,196 --> 00:02:03,756 Speaker 3: kind of hero, and he didn't chill out during peacetime either. 29 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:08,076 Speaker 3: He kept flying, securing his place in history by traveling 30 00:02:08,116 --> 00:02:10,596 Speaker 3: faster than the speed of sound in a rocket powered 31 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:14,316 Speaker 3: aircraft he named Glamorous Glennis in honor of his wife. 32 00:02:16,116 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 3: Other pilots had perished in their pursuit of this speed record, 33 00:02:18,916 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 3: but Chuck broke the sound barrier with characteristic nonchalance. He 34 00:02:22,556 --> 00:02:24,916 Speaker 3: even failed to tell his team that he'd fallen from 35 00:02:24,916 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 3: a horse and broke in several ribs just before his 36 00:02:27,316 --> 00:02:29,956 Speaker 3: test flight. He probably figured that they wouldn't want to 37 00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:32,036 Speaker 3: trust a guy who could barely raise his arms to 38 00:02:32,076 --> 00:02:37,396 Speaker 3: fly their expensive experimental aircraft. But none of these stories 39 00:02:37,396 --> 00:02:40,436 Speaker 3: explained why Chuck Yeager is a hero to happiness experts 40 00:02:40,476 --> 00:02:43,156 Speaker 3: like me. That stems from an incident that took place 41 00:02:43,236 --> 00:02:47,276 Speaker 3: later a couple of weeks before Christmas in nineteen fifty three, 42 00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 3: Chuck was now piloting an upgraded version of the glamorous Glennis, 43 00:02:52,916 --> 00:02:55,916 Speaker 3: the new X one A. The X one A was 44 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:58,276 Speaker 3: built to travel more than twice the speed of sound. 45 00:02:58,756 --> 00:03:01,996 Speaker 3: Chuck was excited to try out the new aircraft, especially 46 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:04,596 Speaker 3: since a pilot from the US Navy had recently beaten 47 00:03:04,636 --> 00:03:07,876 Speaker 3: his record. Chuck was pretty eager to reclaim his crown 48 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:11,996 Speaker 3: as the fastest man alive. Back then, no one really 49 00:03:12,076 --> 00:03:14,316 Speaker 3: knew what would happen to an airplane or a human 50 00:03:14,356 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 3: body when it reached that velocity in height. The forces 51 00:03:17,236 --> 00:03:19,596 Speaker 3: Chuck was about to face were as unprecedented as they 52 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:23,636 Speaker 3: were dangerous. So cut to December twelfth, nineteen fifty three, 53 00:03:24,156 --> 00:03:27,196 Speaker 3: Jaeger's tenth flight and the X one A began routinely enough. 54 00:03:27,676 --> 00:03:29,636 Speaker 3: Chuck and the X one A got carried high into 55 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 3: the sky by a big bomber plane. The X and 56 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:34,516 Speaker 3: A was then dropped from the belly of the bomber 57 00:03:34,756 --> 00:03:39,876 Speaker 3: and Chuck ignited the experimental rocket enter. The X and 58 00:03:39,996 --> 00:03:44,596 Speaker 3: A flew upwards fast, but soon started kind of freaking out. 59 00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:48,796 Speaker 3: It was pitching and rolling and tumbling. Chuck grappled with 60 00:03:48,836 --> 00:03:51,916 Speaker 3: the controls inside the cockpit but nothing the pilot did 61 00:03:51,916 --> 00:03:56,876 Speaker 3: seemed to stop the plane's violent descent, and so the 62 00:03:57,036 --> 00:03:58,956 Speaker 3: X one A was now plummeting out of the sky 63 00:03:59,196 --> 00:04:01,996 Speaker 3: while tossing its poor test pilot around like a rag doll. 64 00:04:03,556 --> 00:04:07,596 Speaker 3: At some point, Yaeger was thrown violently into the cockpit's canopy. 65 00:04:07,716 --> 00:04:11,356 Speaker 3: He even cracked the plastic with his flight helmet. All 66 00:04:11,396 --> 00:04:13,716 Speaker 3: this goes to say this was not a good situation. 67 00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 3: In a matter of seconds, the experimental aircraft dropped more 68 00:04:17,676 --> 00:04:20,756 Speaker 3: than six miles. Even if Jeger had known how to 69 00:04:20,796 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 3: stop the X one a's rapid descent, he was two 70 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:27,116 Speaker 3: dazed to operate the controls. Was the plane rolling or spinning? 71 00:04:27,756 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 3: Chuck had no idea. There was nothing he could do 72 00:04:30,116 --> 00:04:32,596 Speaker 3: but surrender to the g forces jostling him in his 73 00:04:32,636 --> 00:04:36,636 Speaker 3: seat as the aircraft fell towards the barren Mojave desert below. 74 00:04:39,116 --> 00:04:41,836 Speaker 2: Laurie. This is the kind of cliff hangout opening that 75 00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:44,756 Speaker 2: my cautionary tails listeners will be familiar with. A doomed 76 00:04:44,836 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 2: plane and an equally doomed pilot hurtling towards Earth. So 77 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:50,956 Speaker 2: what did Chuck Yeger do? 78 00:04:51,596 --> 00:04:51,956 Speaker 1: Nothing? 79 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:56,636 Speaker 3: Nothing, well, mostly nothing, which is why happiness experts like 80 00:04:56,716 --> 00:05:00,316 Speaker 3: me loved what happened next. Chuck was known for his 81 00:05:00,356 --> 00:05:03,676 Speaker 3: nerves as steel, but this situation had him totally spooked. 82 00:05:03,876 --> 00:05:05,516 Speaker 3: He later said that if the X one A had 83 00:05:05,556 --> 00:05:08,036 Speaker 3: been fitted with an ejection seat, he would have used it, 84 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:10,676 Speaker 3: but most experts say if he'd done that, there'd be 85 00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:12,836 Speaker 3: no way he would have survived. In the parlance of 86 00:05:12,876 --> 00:05:15,596 Speaker 3: test pilots, he would have been committing suicide to save 87 00:05:15,676 --> 00:05:19,436 Speaker 3: himself from dying. So without any way to escape, Yeager 88 00:05:19,436 --> 00:05:22,316 Speaker 3: had two options. Option one, he could do everything in 89 00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:25,396 Speaker 3: his power to write his tumbling rocket ship to be fair. 90 00:05:25,636 --> 00:05:27,716 Speaker 3: This was what Truck tried to do at the beginning, 91 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:30,996 Speaker 3: but his attempts to use the controls didn't work. At best, 92 00:05:31,036 --> 00:05:33,156 Speaker 3: they did nothing, and they also may have made a 93 00:05:33,196 --> 00:05:36,756 Speaker 3: bad situation even worse. So once the plane's descent became 94 00:05:36,796 --> 00:05:40,556 Speaker 3: too violent, he was forced into option number two. Just 95 00:05:40,636 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 3: do nothing, just write it out, and that is exactly 96 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 3: what saved him. When the X one A hit about 97 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:52,596 Speaker 3: twenty five thousand feet if finally steady, the aircraft was 98 00:05:52,636 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 3: still spinning, but it was the kind of spin that 99 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:58,436 Speaker 3: Yeager was familiarate. Once all the nightmarish bucking and tumbling 100 00:05:58,516 --> 00:06:01,236 Speaker 3: was over, the veteran test pilot was finally able to 101 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:03,636 Speaker 3: pull up the nose of his craft down to twenty 102 00:06:03,636 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 3: five that I would want to get back to bank. 103 00:06:06,316 --> 00:06:07,036 Speaker 2: Huh. 104 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 3: If you listen to Yegger's cockpit recordings, his fear is 105 00:06:10,316 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 3: very obvious and his relief is palpable. I can't do much. 106 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:18,076 Speaker 3: Before I got it, he knew he was in trouble, 107 00:06:18,396 --> 00:06:20,076 Speaker 3: but in the end he was going to make it 108 00:06:20,116 --> 00:06:26,356 Speaker 3: home all right. I don't know a thing up or not. 109 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:32,596 Speaker 3: The wild Ride wasn't a total disaster. The X one 110 00:06:32,676 --> 00:06:35,236 Speaker 3: A had topped out at mock two point four to four, 111 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:39,636 Speaker 3: and that record was finally enough for Chuck Boy. He 112 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 3: told his team, I'm not going to do that anymore. Well, 113 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:49,156 Speaker 3: Jaeger walked away safely from the X one A and 114 00:06:49,276 --> 00:06:50,916 Speaker 3: never flew a wocketplane again. 115 00:06:53,716 --> 00:06:56,396 Speaker 2: I love the story, Laurie, and it's definitely a cautionary tale. 116 00:06:56,436 --> 00:07:00,156 Speaker 2: But what's the happiness moral of this anecdote? 117 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 3: Well, I first heard this story from one of my 118 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:05,756 Speaker 3: favorite meditation teachers, the psychologist Tara Brack. She shares it 119 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:08,516 Speaker 3: as a cautionary tale. But our usual need to constantly 120 00:07:08,556 --> 00:07:11,236 Speaker 3: be in control of every facet of our lives. When 121 00:07:11,316 --> 00:07:14,036 Speaker 3: Rafe's with a problem, most of us instinctively want to 122 00:07:14,076 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 3: take action. We feel the need to do something, even 123 00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:19,036 Speaker 3: in cases when we kind of know our actions will 124 00:07:19,036 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 3: be ineffective or even make stuff worse. Tera says that 125 00:07:22,556 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 3: in times like this we need to copy the great 126 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:27,676 Speaker 3: Chuck Yeger. We need to pause, take our hands off 127 00:07:27,716 --> 00:07:31,796 Speaker 3: the controls, and just let things be. This pause, Tera writes, 128 00:07:31,916 --> 00:07:34,236 Speaker 3: gives us a possibility of a new choice. 129 00:07:34,636 --> 00:07:37,716 Speaker 2: Now, sitting back isn't something that comes naturally to many 130 00:07:37,716 --> 00:07:39,996 Speaker 2: of us, so let's have a think about the ways 131 00:07:40,196 --> 00:07:42,676 Speaker 2: in which it could actually be the key to performing 132 00:07:42,716 --> 00:07:46,756 Speaker 2: better and feeling happier. When I'm struck by some of 133 00:07:46,756 --> 00:07:50,756 Speaker 2: the caution detales that we've had over the years where 134 00:07:51,076 --> 00:07:54,796 Speaker 2: doing nothing is in fact precisely the right thing to do, 135 00:07:55,276 --> 00:07:59,156 Speaker 2: there's one on the subject of masterly inactivity, which features 136 00:07:59,236 --> 00:08:03,436 Speaker 2: Helena Bottom Krter as the formidable Lady Sale. In the 137 00:08:03,476 --> 00:08:08,516 Speaker 2: disastrous British Army operations in Afghanistan in the nineteenth century, 138 00:08:08,636 --> 00:08:13,116 Speaker 2: this idea of masterly inactivity was raised, and it applied 139 00:08:13,236 --> 00:08:16,596 Speaker 2: not just to maybe the British should never have invaded Afghanistan, 140 00:08:16,636 --> 00:08:20,436 Speaker 2: which I think, with hindsight is obvious, but also parenting, 141 00:08:20,716 --> 00:08:24,356 Speaker 2: maybe we should do less parenting or medicine, maybe doctors 142 00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:29,436 Speaker 2: should be doing less, prescribing fewer tests, prescribing fewer treatments. 143 00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 2: Even soccer goalkeepers are too committed to being active when 144 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:36,316 Speaker 2: faced with a penalty was in fact they'd be better 145 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:37,476 Speaker 2: off if they stayed Still. 146 00:08:37,596 --> 00:08:40,356 Speaker 3: Wait, wait, Tim, as you know I'm an American on 147 00:08:40,396 --> 00:08:42,916 Speaker 3: behalf of my fellow Americans, can you just explain what 148 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:45,716 Speaker 3: this penalty kick example is in a little bit more detail. 149 00:08:46,076 --> 00:08:48,596 Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, I understand that the joys of soccer 150 00:08:48,676 --> 00:08:52,836 Speaker 2: are finding American shaws these days, but maybe not this 151 00:08:52,876 --> 00:08:56,316 Speaker 2: particular study. So some I think there were economists who 152 00:08:56,316 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 2: started that actually looked at what goalkeepers do when faced 153 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:04,956 Speaker 2: with a penalty kick. And basically, in the penalty kick, 154 00:09:05,396 --> 00:09:08,516 Speaker 2: the striker gets to try and put the ball in 155 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,036 Speaker 2: the net, and they can boot it to the left, 156 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:12,076 Speaker 2: or they can boot it to the right, or they 157 00:09:12,076 --> 00:09:14,716 Speaker 2: can bout it straight down the middle, and the goalkeeper 158 00:09:14,756 --> 00:09:18,596 Speaker 2: doesn't have much time to react. And so the standard 159 00:09:18,596 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 2: procedure for a goalkeeper is just to guess it's fifty 160 00:09:21,076 --> 00:09:24,716 Speaker 2: to fifty. Just dive to the right or dive to 161 00:09:24,756 --> 00:09:26,876 Speaker 2: the left, and you got a fifty percent chance a 162 00:09:26,916 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 2: going the right way. Even if you do go the 163 00:09:28,396 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 2: right way, you might not save it. I mean, actually, 164 00:09:30,116 --> 00:09:33,636 Speaker 2: most penalties turn into goals. Usually the keeper isn't able 165 00:09:33,636 --> 00:09:35,676 Speaker 2: to save it, but there's a lot of pressure on 166 00:09:35,796 --> 00:09:38,996 Speaker 2: the keeper to try. So the goalkeeper will usually leap 167 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 2: off to the left or the right. If they leap 168 00:09:40,716 --> 00:09:42,516 Speaker 2: in the wrong direction, well, you know, no one blames 169 00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:45,356 Speaker 2: them for that. But actually quite a lot of penalty 170 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:49,316 Speaker 2: kicks go fairly close to where the goalkeeper originally was standing. 171 00:09:49,516 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 2: They go right down the center or near enough to 172 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:55,436 Speaker 2: the center, and you can prove that if the goalkeeper 173 00:09:55,476 --> 00:09:58,116 Speaker 2: had not dived either way, they probably would have had 174 00:09:58,116 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 2: a better chance of saving the penalty kick. They would 175 00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:05,836 Speaker 2: also have looked ridiculous if the kick had gone far 176 00:10:05,876 --> 00:10:07,476 Speaker 2: to the left or fart of the right, because they 177 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 2: would have looked like they weren't even And so there's 178 00:10:10,636 --> 00:10:14,316 Speaker 2: that pressure to act, even when just waiting and standing 179 00:10:14,356 --> 00:10:16,156 Speaker 2: still would have been a better thing to do. 180 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:18,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think it's something that's really hard for 181 00:10:18,556 --> 00:10:20,796 Speaker 3: our mind. I mean, take the medical case you mentioned. 182 00:10:21,196 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 3: I've seen the importance of doing nothing in cases where 183 00:10:24,716 --> 00:10:27,756 Speaker 3: friends of mine who've had cancer have been advised, well, 184 00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:30,236 Speaker 3: rather than do some surgery, rather than do some chemo, 185 00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:33,316 Speaker 3: let's just watch and wait. I think this is what 186 00:10:33,396 --> 00:10:37,076 Speaker 3: doctors often call nonoperative management or active surveillance, which I 187 00:10:37,076 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 3: think is a funny term, this idea of active surveillance, 188 00:10:39,276 --> 00:10:41,196 Speaker 3: because it feels like there's nothing active about it. It's 189 00:10:41,196 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 3: complete inaction. You're just kind of sitting there waiting, and 190 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 3: I think people don't like that. I mean, some studies, 191 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:48,556 Speaker 3: especially for some cancer show that this can be really 192 00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:50,596 Speaker 3: helpful for dealing with a cancer. 193 00:10:50,676 --> 00:10:50,836 Speaker 1: Right. 194 00:10:50,876 --> 00:10:53,476 Speaker 3: Sometimes you go through chemo and surgery, but there's a 195 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:55,436 Speaker 3: tumor that's going to grow back anyway, and so it 196 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:57,596 Speaker 3: was just like silly to take the risk of doing 197 00:10:57,596 --> 00:10:59,996 Speaker 3: all that surgery and chemo. But the idea of just 198 00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:03,236 Speaker 3: sitting there and like seeing what your tumor does, it's 199 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:06,916 Speaker 3: just an incredibly scary situation for people who are facing it. 200 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,836 Speaker 3: People just want to do something, even if if it's futile, 201 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:12,036 Speaker 3: to feel like they're taking some kind of action rather 202 00:11:12,076 --> 00:11:12,836 Speaker 3: than doing nothing. 203 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:16,996 Speaker 2: Which I suppose is why that word active is so important. 204 00:11:17,196 --> 00:11:20,436 Speaker 2: Active surveillance, so the idea that you are doing something, 205 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 2: the challenge of course is to know whether active surveillance, 206 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:26,676 Speaker 2: whatever it is, masterly and activity, to know whether doing 207 00:11:26,716 --> 00:11:30,116 Speaker 2: nothing is the right thing, And for that you would 208 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:33,836 Speaker 2: need some kind of statistical evidence base, you'd need some 209 00:11:33,916 --> 00:11:38,036 Speaker 2: kind of rigorous experiment. But I know doctors are quite 210 00:11:38,076 --> 00:11:41,916 Speaker 2: convinced that they are over prescribing too many tests, too 211 00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:44,836 Speaker 2: many treatments that are not necessary. And so the question 212 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:47,396 Speaker 2: there is, well, why do they feel that that's the 213 00:11:47,476 --> 00:11:49,116 Speaker 2: right thing to do, or or maybe they don't feel 214 00:11:49,116 --> 00:11:50,596 Speaker 2: it's the right thing to do, why do they do it? 215 00:11:51,156 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 2: And it is often a fear of being sued by 216 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:55,996 Speaker 2: a patient, or simply just trying to get rid of 217 00:11:55,996 --> 00:11:58,516 Speaker 2: a patient who is pestering them and saying I want 218 00:11:58,556 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 2: you to do something, like okay, fine, you want me 219 00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 2: to do something even though I shouldn't do anything. I'll 220 00:12:02,676 --> 00:12:05,156 Speaker 2: give you this drug or I'll prescribe this test and 221 00:12:05,196 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 2: that'll help you to go away. 222 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:09,116 Speaker 3: So it seems like we'd all be much happier, maybe 223 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:12,596 Speaker 3: even healthier, if we could figure out the importance of 224 00:12:12,636 --> 00:12:16,316 Speaker 3: sometimes doing nothing. But tim sometimes the best decision isn't 225 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:19,116 Speaker 3: just to pause and do nothing. Sometimes the best thing 226 00:12:19,156 --> 00:12:22,276 Speaker 3: we can do is to actively take something away but 227 00:12:22,396 --> 00:12:24,996 Speaker 3: it turns out this subtracting stuff seems to be even 228 00:12:25,036 --> 00:12:27,676 Speaker 3: harder for our lying minds to deal with. It's something 229 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:29,236 Speaker 3: that we're very, very bad at. 230 00:12:29,516 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 2: We are, indeed, and we'll learn more about that when 231 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:37,276 Speaker 2: this Caution Retail's Happiness Lab crossover episode returns after the break. 232 00:12:43,836 --> 00:12:45,436 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Happiness Lab. 233 00:12:45,316 --> 00:12:47,156 Speaker 2: And welcome back to Caution Retales. 234 00:12:47,356 --> 00:12:49,756 Speaker 3: Wait, Tim, remind me do you usually introduce a second 235 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:52,596 Speaker 3: historic story after the break in your episodes, Because if 236 00:12:52,636 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 3: you do, I have yet another fun tale, one that's 237 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:57,436 Speaker 3: not about the advantage of doing nothing but about the 238 00:12:57,436 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 3: power of taking stuff away. 239 00:12:59,236 --> 00:13:01,716 Speaker 2: I'm going to stop you, Laurie, go for it. Go ahead, 240 00:13:01,996 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 2: How could I resist? 241 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 1: Well? 242 00:13:03,796 --> 00:13:06,076 Speaker 3: Story number two doesn't take us as far back as 243 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:08,996 Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties, but it does involve a clever strategy 244 00:13:09,196 --> 00:13:11,436 Speaker 3: for operating yet another hard to deal with vehicle. 245 00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:16,836 Speaker 2: Oh, let me guess, hard to deal with vehicles combine harvesters, 246 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:20,396 Speaker 2: no giant robots that you get to settle or I 247 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:21,116 Speaker 2: don't know. Tell me. 248 00:13:21,516 --> 00:13:24,676 Speaker 3: Actually the story involves a bike, like just a regular 249 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 3: kids bike. 250 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:27,996 Speaker 2: Oh okay, well, hopefully it's a good story. 251 00:13:28,676 --> 00:13:30,556 Speaker 3: Well, the story begins with a guy by the name 252 00:13:30,596 --> 00:13:33,396 Speaker 3: of Ryan McFarland. Ryan came from a long line of 253 00:13:33,436 --> 00:13:36,876 Speaker 3: motorsports junkies. His grandfather was a race car engineer, and 254 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:40,196 Speaker 3: Daddy McFarland ran a motorcycle shop. All this meant that 255 00:13:40,276 --> 00:13:42,836 Speaker 3: Ryan spent his childhood having fun with all kinds of 256 00:13:42,916 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 3: dangerous wheeled vehicles. He rode dirt bikes and played in 257 00:13:46,116 --> 00:13:49,876 Speaker 3: go karts and race stock cars. Ryan was eventually able 258 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:52,476 Speaker 3: to translate his love for all things wheels into a 259 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:56,076 Speaker 3: profitable engineering career. He made a name for himself patenting 260 00:13:56,116 --> 00:13:59,476 Speaker 3: both a better bike seat and a new wheelchair suspension system. 261 00:14:00,116 --> 00:14:02,916 Speaker 3: So you could imagine Ryan's delight when he finally became 262 00:14:02,956 --> 00:14:05,916 Speaker 3: a dad himself. Pretty much as soon as his son 263 00:14:05,956 --> 00:14:08,316 Speaker 3: Body was out of the womb, Ryan was ready to 264 00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:11,396 Speaker 3: pass on the farl In family love of wheels. Body 265 00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:13,996 Speaker 3: was two when he got his first cycle, but riding 266 00:14:13,996 --> 00:14:17,076 Speaker 3: a bike Ryan quickly realized is kind of hard for 267 00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 3: a toddler. Ryan was passionate about getting Body on two 268 00:14:20,636 --> 00:14:23,476 Speaker 3: wheels as soon as possible, so he spent thousands of 269 00:14:23,476 --> 00:14:28,596 Speaker 3: dollars buying Body the usual learner vehicles, toddler tricycles, trainer bikes, 270 00:14:28,876 --> 00:14:31,196 Speaker 3: even a training wheel equipped motorcycle. 271 00:14:32,436 --> 00:14:35,876 Speaker 2: Oh wait, a training wheel equipped motorcycle. You're trying to 272 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 2: convince me that that is a typical learner vehicle. I'm 273 00:14:38,196 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 2: not buying it. That seemed like a terrible idea for 274 00:14:40,556 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 2: a two year old. 275 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:44,516 Speaker 3: Well, I think it was tim Basically, nothing Ryan bought worked, 276 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:46,596 Speaker 3: Plus none of them were all that good at teaching 277 00:14:46,596 --> 00:14:48,956 Speaker 3: a little kid the most important part of riding a bike, 278 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:51,676 Speaker 3: which is the art of balancing it. You can't learn 279 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:53,836 Speaker 3: to equalize your weight on a bike with training wheels 280 00:14:53,916 --> 00:14:56,276 Speaker 3: because the wheels wind up doing all the balancing work. 281 00:14:56,676 --> 00:14:59,316 Speaker 3: And so Ryan decided to engineer a new kind of bike, 282 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:02,476 Speaker 3: one that even a toddler like body could learn to balance. 283 00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:03,556 Speaker 2: And how did you do that? 284 00:15:03,956 --> 00:15:05,156 Speaker 1: Well, his solution was. 285 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:07,796 Speaker 3: To start with a typical bike, but rather than adding 286 00:15:07,836 --> 00:15:10,436 Speaker 3: something new to the bike's design, he chose to take 287 00:15:10,476 --> 00:15:14,596 Speaker 3: something away. He got rid of the pedals. Ryan was 288 00:15:14,636 --> 00:15:16,996 Speaker 3: the first to design what's now known as a strider 289 00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:20,076 Speaker 3: or balance bike. Kids can easily get the bike moving 290 00:15:20,236 --> 00:15:22,556 Speaker 3: just by pushing their feet on the ground, kind of 291 00:15:22,596 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 3: like Fred Flintstone style, and without pedals to worry about, 292 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 3: even a two year old could ride it. On the strider, 293 00:15:28,956 --> 00:15:31,636 Speaker 3: Body was able to learn to steer and balance, all 294 00:15:31,636 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 3: the stuff he'd need when he graduated to a real 295 00:15:33,796 --> 00:15:37,356 Speaker 3: bike or I guess a motorcycle. Ryan was able to 296 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:39,636 Speaker 3: turn his idea not just into a tory for body, 297 00:15:40,116 --> 00:15:42,956 Speaker 3: his balance bike turned into a global company which has 298 00:15:43,036 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 3: now sold millions of pedalist bikes in less than a decade. 299 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:50,476 Speaker 2: I love this, Laurie, and as somebody who's written about 300 00:15:50,476 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 2: the history of technology, I feel obliged to point out 301 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 2: that this is what bikes were originally like. They were 302 00:15:57,476 --> 00:16:01,876 Speaker 2: sometimes called the hobby horses. Oh, the Germans had, I 303 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:04,556 Speaker 2: think the Louf machine. I forget exactly what it was. 304 00:16:04,676 --> 00:16:07,116 Speaker 2: The dandy horse was another thing they were called. The 305 00:16:07,236 --> 00:16:09,716 Speaker 2: bikes originally didn't have pedals because the whole idea of 306 00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:12,956 Speaker 2: pedaling you needed gears. He needed a chain. It was 307 00:16:12,996 --> 00:16:16,396 Speaker 2: too difficult. And so we had bikes like this all along, 308 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 2: and then somehow we forgot them, and then Ryan reinvented 309 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 2: them for toddlers, which is brilliant. But I'm curious, why 310 00:16:23,356 --> 00:16:24,596 Speaker 2: did you want to tell me the story? What's going 311 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:25,236 Speaker 2: to do with happiness? 312 00:16:25,316 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 3: Well, the real reason I wanted to mention Ryan's story 313 00:16:27,476 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 3: is it involves a practice that's super good for our happiness, 314 00:16:29,876 --> 00:16:31,996 Speaker 3: but also one that's really hard for our minds to do. 315 00:16:32,636 --> 00:16:35,476 Speaker 3: To get his design right, Ryan had to take something away. 316 00:16:35,836 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 3: He had to subtract the pedals, and the research has 317 00:16:38,596 --> 00:16:41,356 Speaker 3: shown that subtracting stuff is much harder than we think. 318 00:16:41,836 --> 00:16:44,556 Speaker 3: I first learned about Ryan's project in this book by 319 00:16:44,636 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 3: Lydie Klotz. He's a professor of engineering at the University 320 00:16:47,356 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 3: of Virginia. He's written this awesome book called Subtract The 321 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:53,796 Speaker 3: Untapped Science of Less. But he does all these experiments 322 00:16:53,796 --> 00:16:55,956 Speaker 3: where he shows just how hard it is for adults 323 00:16:55,956 --> 00:16:58,756 Speaker 3: to figure out how to solve a problem that requires 324 00:16:58,796 --> 00:17:01,196 Speaker 3: taking something away. He does these fun studies with his 325 00:17:01,236 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 3: college students where he shows them this kind of lego 326 00:17:04,196 --> 00:17:07,036 Speaker 3: bridge type thing that's sort of uneven. It's kind of 327 00:17:07,076 --> 00:17:09,476 Speaker 3: about to collapse because it's got one leg in the 328 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:12,916 Speaker 3: wrong spot, and he asks subjects do something to make 329 00:17:12,996 --> 00:17:14,956 Speaker 3: this structure a little bit more stable. 330 00:17:15,076 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 1: And so subjects have two choices. 331 00:17:16,996 --> 00:17:19,676 Speaker 3: They could add a bunch of new blocks so that 332 00:17:19,756 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 3: this structure becomes more stable, or they could just take 333 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:25,396 Speaker 3: away the one stupid block that's extra on one side. 334 00:17:25,436 --> 00:17:26,956 Speaker 1: And so then all of a sudden, the thing would 335 00:17:26,956 --> 00:17:27,596 Speaker 1: balance better. 336 00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:30,196 Speaker 3: And what he finds is that even if you suggest 337 00:17:30,236 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 3: to subjects like hey, it's also possible to take stuff away, 338 00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:36,556 Speaker 3: subjects have a really hard time with this. They're much 339 00:17:36,596 --> 00:17:38,716 Speaker 3: more likely to add a bunch of stuff, which takes 340 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:40,996 Speaker 3: them more time than just to take one thing away. 341 00:17:41,436 --> 00:17:43,796 Speaker 3: Lidy found that subjects even still do this when you 342 00:17:44,116 --> 00:17:46,036 Speaker 3: charge for the amount of blocks they're going to use, 343 00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:48,316 Speaker 3: So subjects now have to pay ten cents for every 344 00:17:48,356 --> 00:17:50,956 Speaker 3: extra block they put on, and it's still really hard 345 00:17:50,956 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 3: for them to figure out that they have to take 346 00:17:52,396 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 3: some stuff away to make this work best. 347 00:17:54,236 --> 00:17:59,076 Speaker 2: I had the privilege of interviewing Lidi for the Financial Times. 348 00:17:59,076 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 2: I read his book and I found it really fascinating. 349 00:18:02,076 --> 00:18:06,236 Speaker 2: And when I first saw the work on Legos, originally 350 00:18:06,276 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 2: the whole idea was sparked because he noticed that his 351 00:18:08,676 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 2: son just naturally pulled away the extra block. So his 352 00:18:12,436 --> 00:18:14,516 Speaker 2: son didn't seem to have a problem subtracting, but it 353 00:18:14,556 --> 00:18:17,036 Speaker 2: didn't occur to him to subtract. And when I first thought, 354 00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:19,396 Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, well, I mean no, I like Lego, 355 00:18:19,676 --> 00:18:23,876 Speaker 2: that's great, but is this really of practical significance? But 356 00:18:23,916 --> 00:18:27,356 Speaker 2: then some of the other experiments that Lady had been 357 00:18:27,396 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 2: doing with his coauthors were I think much more obviously 358 00:18:32,516 --> 00:18:34,996 Speaker 2: relevant to day to day life. For example, one of 359 00:18:34,996 --> 00:18:37,636 Speaker 2: the ones he did was he got people to suggest 360 00:18:37,636 --> 00:18:40,276 Speaker 2: improvements to a recipe for soup. Here's a recipe for soup. 361 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:44,036 Speaker 2: How do you make it better? And people would always suggest, oh, well, 362 00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:47,236 Speaker 2: you could add some cream or garlic or salt or whatever. 363 00:18:47,516 --> 00:18:51,556 Speaker 2: They're suggest adding steps or adding ingredients, and very few 364 00:18:51,596 --> 00:18:54,436 Speaker 2: people said, no, you need to take away this ingredient 365 00:18:54,476 --> 00:18:56,756 Speaker 2: because it's going to swamp everything else. There seem to 366 00:18:56,796 --> 00:19:00,676 Speaker 2: be this inbuilt bias, and even when he suggested cases 367 00:19:00,716 --> 00:19:04,556 Speaker 2: where it was absolutely obvious that you should take something away, 368 00:19:04,676 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 2: people didn't. So for example, in one experiment, they showed 369 00:19:08,476 --> 00:19:12,556 Speaker 2: people itinery for a day in Washington, d C. I 370 00:19:12,636 --> 00:19:14,756 Speaker 2: used to live in DC. It's a lovely city. There's 371 00:19:14,756 --> 00:19:17,676 Speaker 2: loads to do, but this itinery was crazy. I think 372 00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:20,596 Speaker 2: they had twenty four different stops and they would basically 373 00:19:20,596 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 2: be going to a Library of Congress, twenty minutes there, 374 00:19:23,756 --> 00:19:26,476 Speaker 2: get back in the coach, down the mall to a museum. 375 00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 2: Twenty minutes in the museum, get back in the coach, 376 00:19:28,556 --> 00:19:30,316 Speaker 2: take you somewhere else, and you just go all over 377 00:19:30,396 --> 00:19:33,116 Speaker 2: DC and try and see everything. And it was clearly insane. 378 00:19:33,196 --> 00:19:36,596 Speaker 2: And they were given this itinery and told, okay, how 379 00:19:36,596 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 2: do you make it better? And the obvious answer is 380 00:19:39,276 --> 00:19:41,636 Speaker 2: take out some of the stops, give everything some room 381 00:19:41,676 --> 00:19:44,716 Speaker 2: to breathe, less time driving from one place to another, 382 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 2: more time actually enjoying what you're seeing. And people just 383 00:19:49,276 --> 00:19:52,836 Speaker 2: didn't do it. They would rearrange the order of engagements, 384 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:54,996 Speaker 2: they'd maybe try to make things a bit more efficient 385 00:19:55,116 --> 00:19:57,916 Speaker 2: or more logical, but they did not remove stuff, even 386 00:19:57,956 --> 00:20:00,796 Speaker 2: when it was clear that everything was just too much 387 00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:03,236 Speaker 2: and subtraction was the only answer. So this seems to 388 00:20:03,236 --> 00:20:05,476 Speaker 2: be really quite a deep bias in the way we. 389 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:07,796 Speaker 3: Think, and the travel example, I think shows just how 390 00:20:07,876 --> 00:20:10,876 Speaker 3: much it can affect our when we have too much stuff, 391 00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:12,836 Speaker 3: when we don't realize the power of taking things away. 392 00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 3: I've been on those vacations where it's like just too 393 00:20:15,916 --> 00:20:17,956 Speaker 3: many things, Just like wait, if I just took out 394 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 3: one or two of these and I could just sleep 395 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:22,476 Speaker 3: in an extra hour, I could just take a moment 396 00:20:22,516 --> 00:20:24,916 Speaker 3: to rest, I'd feel so much better. But it's not 397 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:27,396 Speaker 3: just like ephemberal things like travel plans where we mess 398 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:29,276 Speaker 3: this up, we also mess this up with the literal 399 00:20:29,316 --> 00:20:31,356 Speaker 3: stuff that's inside our houses. And Tim, I know this 400 00:20:31,396 --> 00:20:33,396 Speaker 3: is something that you've actually written a book on the 401 00:20:33,476 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 3: kind of striking way that our materialism is problematic for us, 402 00:20:36,796 --> 00:20:39,116 Speaker 3: and sometimes we don't subtract enough of our own stuff. 403 00:20:39,276 --> 00:20:42,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got involved in this by accident. So I 404 00:20:42,116 --> 00:20:45,436 Speaker 2: wrote a book a few years ago called Messy, and 405 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:49,156 Speaker 2: it's kind of a messy book. It's about improvisation and 406 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:54,996 Speaker 2: jazz and filing cabinets and conversations and all kinds of things. 407 00:20:54,996 --> 00:20:58,036 Speaker 2: It's sort of a messy book, and in many ways 408 00:20:58,036 --> 00:21:00,796 Speaker 2: it's the book I'm most proud of. But when I 409 00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:04,596 Speaker 2: published this book around about the same time, Marry Condo's book, 410 00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:07,636 Speaker 2: The Life Changing Magic of Tidying was also out. It 411 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:10,436 Speaker 2: was a huge bestseller, and so people were always asking 412 00:21:10,476 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 2: me to talk about, you know, the contrast between my 413 00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 2: book and Marry Condo's book, because I'm for mess and 414 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:19,556 Speaker 2: she's for tidy, and you know, and actually I kept saying, 415 00:21:19,596 --> 00:21:22,236 Speaker 2: I don't think I mean, I loved her book. Actually, 416 00:21:22,316 --> 00:21:24,756 Speaker 2: I don't think there's as much of a difference as 417 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:28,396 Speaker 2: you might think, because really the point that she made 418 00:21:28,436 --> 00:21:31,316 Speaker 2: in the life changing Magic of Tidying is you can't 419 00:21:31,876 --> 00:21:35,396 Speaker 2: organize your way out of too much. You could only 420 00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 2: subtract your way out of too much. You have to 421 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:40,516 Speaker 2: get rid of stuff. So in fact, her book is 422 00:21:40,556 --> 00:21:43,636 Speaker 2: not really about tidying. Her book is about minimalism. Her 423 00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:46,316 Speaker 2: book is about subtraction. And I've got absolutely no problem 424 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:49,396 Speaker 2: with that. Sometimes you need that space. And I was 425 00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:54,236 Speaker 2: similarly skeptical about organizational systems. I don't think organizational systems 426 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:57,316 Speaker 2: solve the fundamental problem of too much stuff going on. 427 00:21:57,476 --> 00:21:59,836 Speaker 2: But yet we fool ourselves into thinking that, you know, 428 00:21:59,916 --> 00:22:02,796 Speaker 2: if only we did have the right hacks, if only 429 00:22:02,836 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 2: we had the file of facts, or if only we 430 00:22:04,436 --> 00:22:06,596 Speaker 2: had the right software, then we could solve all the 431 00:22:06,596 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 2: problems in our lives by just getting organized. And sometimes, no, 432 00:22:10,836 --> 00:22:12,956 Speaker 2: there's twenty four hours in a day, there's only so 433 00:22:12,996 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 2: many rooms in your house, that there's only so much time, 434 00:22:16,036 --> 00:22:19,276 Speaker 2: there's only so much space. And I think a really 435 00:22:19,316 --> 00:22:23,636 Speaker 2: fundamental insight of economics, and people don't think of economics 436 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:25,996 Speaker 2: as offering wisdom for day to day life, but I 437 00:22:26,036 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 2: think it does really fundamental insight and economics is everything 438 00:22:29,516 --> 00:22:32,636 Speaker 2: has an opportunity cost and what that means is everything 439 00:22:32,716 --> 00:22:36,756 Speaker 2: you do, everything you buy, every hour you spend is 440 00:22:36,796 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 2: getting in the way of something else. It's something else 441 00:22:39,276 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 2: you can't do, It's some other way you can't spend 442 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 2: that hour, it's some other thing that you can't afford 443 00:22:44,276 --> 00:22:46,596 Speaker 2: to buy because you bought that first thing. And when 444 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:48,996 Speaker 2: you see everything as potentially getting in the way of 445 00:22:48,996 --> 00:22:53,196 Speaker 2: everything else, you start to realize, as Ldiklott says, not 446 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:56,596 Speaker 2: only should you be subtracting the bad stuff, sometimes you 447 00:22:56,636 --> 00:23:00,196 Speaker 2: have to subtract the good stuff as well, because subtracting 448 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:03,156 Speaker 2: the good stuff makes space for more good stuff and 449 00:23:03,196 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 2: to enjoy the good stuff that you have. 450 00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:08,516 Speaker 3: I think this is so important for myself in so 451 00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:11,116 Speaker 3: many different way. But this is also something that I've 452 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:14,596 Speaker 3: seen in my students. Right. They have these college students 453 00:23:14,636 --> 00:23:18,396 Speaker 3: today have these such like over subscribed schedules, like they 454 00:23:18,516 --> 00:23:20,476 Speaker 3: just never have time to do anything. And I think 455 00:23:20,476 --> 00:23:23,476 Speaker 3: that's because they grew up in generation where parents gave 456 00:23:23,516 --> 00:23:25,476 Speaker 3: them so much to do that they got used to 457 00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:27,996 Speaker 3: not ever having time to do stuff. I know you've 458 00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:30,876 Speaker 3: talked a little bit about helicopter parenting. This is something 459 00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 3: that we talk a lot about on the show But 460 00:23:32,996 --> 00:23:35,996 Speaker 3: one way to describe helicopter parenting is the problem of 461 00:23:36,076 --> 00:23:39,996 Speaker 3: not subtracting enough. Right, you want your kids to, you know, 462 00:23:40,116 --> 00:23:42,196 Speaker 3: learn how to play soccer, and you want your kids 463 00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 3: to get piano lessons, and you definitely need them to 464 00:23:44,396 --> 00:23:46,596 Speaker 3: get a math tutor and an SAT tutor and all 465 00:23:46,596 --> 00:23:49,516 Speaker 3: these things, and so you pack as kids' schedule to 466 00:23:49,556 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 3: the point that they have no time for rest, no 467 00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:53,636 Speaker 3: time for play, no time for being social with kids 468 00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:56,036 Speaker 3: their age. And the right solution isn't to give them 469 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:59,516 Speaker 3: more tutoring, it's to just subtract stuff. I think what 470 00:23:59,556 --> 00:24:02,596 Speaker 3: happens is that parents have kids' schedules that are just 471 00:24:02,716 --> 00:24:05,436 Speaker 3: really oversubscribed, and then they get worried of like, oh, well, 472 00:24:05,476 --> 00:24:07,236 Speaker 3: he doesn't have time for play, he doesn't have time 473 00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 3: for friends, So I'll just add in a play. No, 474 00:24:09,596 --> 00:24:11,796 Speaker 3: I'll squeeze that into all the other stuff that kids 475 00:24:11,836 --> 00:24:14,756 Speaker 3: have to do. But this over scheduling, the research shows, 476 00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:18,396 Speaker 3: makes kids like way more anxious. Anxiety disorders are going up. 477 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,116 Speaker 3: Kids will sometimes report sometimes like you know, we very 478 00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:22,996 Speaker 3: busy adults do, that they have no time, that they 479 00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 3: feel overwhelmed by their schedule, when it also feels like 480 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:29,756 Speaker 3: everyone would just be much happier and probably everybody would 481 00:24:29,796 --> 00:24:32,716 Speaker 3: perform more successfully if we could just take a bunch 482 00:24:32,716 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 3: of stuff out of kids' schedules. 483 00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:37,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think an important thing to underline we 484 00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 2: kind of already said it, but let's say it again 485 00:24:39,236 --> 00:24:42,756 Speaker 2: because we're adding, not subtracting as I always do, is 486 00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:45,396 Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with any of this stuff. There's nothing 487 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:47,156 Speaker 2: wrong with having a masth tutel, there's nothing wrong with 488 00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:50,316 Speaker 2: learning an instrument, there's nothing wrong with with learning a sport. 489 00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 2: It's all good. It's just there's a limit. And sometimes 490 00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 2: we like to tell ourselves, oh, well, if we just 491 00:24:57,356 --> 00:24:59,716 Speaker 2: get rid of all the wasted time, we get rid 492 00:24:59,756 --> 00:25:02,156 Speaker 2: of all the bad stuff, then we'll have time to 493 00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 2: focus on what really matters. But actually know, sometimes you 494 00:25:05,276 --> 00:25:06,836 Speaker 2: have to get rid of stuff that you really do 495 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:09,396 Speaker 2: want to do, that stuff that is worth doing, because 496 00:25:09,436 --> 00:25:12,156 Speaker 2: you can't do everything, and it's painful to face up 497 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:12,356 Speaker 2: to that. 498 00:25:13,436 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 3: So the question is why don't we follow this idea 499 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 3: of less is more? Why is it something that's so 500 00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:20,756 Speaker 3: hard for our minds. We'll learn some ways that we 501 00:25:20,796 --> 00:25:23,556 Speaker 3: can all do this better. When the Cautionary Tales Happiness 502 00:25:23,636 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 3: Lab crossover it gets. 503 00:25:24,716 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: Back from the break. 504 00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:34,636 Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Cautionary Tales Happiness Lab crossover. So, Tim, 505 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:36,956 Speaker 3: before we left, we were talking about ways that we 506 00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:39,876 Speaker 3: can make subtraction a little bit more obvious for our 507 00:25:39,956 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 3: lying minds. And one of the ways that occurs is 508 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:47,156 Speaker 3: when sadly there's nothing we can do but subtract. I 509 00:25:47,156 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 3: know these are cases that you've talked about on Cautionary 510 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:51,756 Speaker 3: Tales before. So maybe share one of these stories where 511 00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:54,396 Speaker 3: people can actually subtract, but only when they're kind of 512 00:25:54,396 --> 00:25:55,756 Speaker 3: forced into a corner and they have to. 513 00:25:56,076 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 2: Yes. The example that has haunted me ever since I 514 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:06,236 Speaker 2: heard it was Keith Jarrett, the great jazz pianist, and 515 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:10,076 Speaker 2: his attempt to play a solo piano concert in the 516 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:14,436 Speaker 2: great German city of Cologne. And that particular concert, it 517 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:16,996 Speaker 2: was the largest concert that Jarrett had ever played solo. 518 00:26:17,036 --> 00:26:18,476 Speaker 2: He was still quite a young man, I think he 519 00:26:18,516 --> 00:26:21,116 Speaker 2: was still in his twenties. There was a mix up 520 00:26:21,276 --> 00:26:23,716 Speaker 2: at the opera house. The promoter was very young, she 521 00:26:23,796 --> 00:26:27,116 Speaker 2: was a teenage girl called Vera Brands, and she or 522 00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:30,276 Speaker 2: the opera house between them had not got a good 523 00:26:30,356 --> 00:26:34,276 Speaker 2: piano on stage for Keith. He'd requested a particular piano 524 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:38,036 Speaker 2: Bozendorf for Imperial. He's a real perfectionist. And instead they 525 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:40,116 Speaker 2: looked around for a bozen door for piano, and they'd 526 00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:43,596 Speaker 2: found this beaten up rehearsal model, not a proper grand piano. 527 00:26:43,716 --> 00:26:46,636 Speaker 2: It's not big enough, but also in really bad condition, 528 00:26:46,956 --> 00:26:51,036 Speaker 2: out of tune, pedal sticking, all kinds of problems. And 529 00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 2: Jarrett basically said, look, I can't play this. If you 530 00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:57,396 Speaker 2: can't get a new piano, I won't play, and he left. 531 00:26:57,876 --> 00:26:59,756 Speaker 2: But it turned out they couldn't get a new piano. 532 00:26:59,836 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 2: There wasn't enough time, and Jarrett eventually realized that if 533 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:09,036 Speaker 2: he didn't play, then this poor girl who was promoting 534 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 2: basically her first concert was going to be torn apart 535 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 2: by this crowd of angry German jazz fans who would 536 00:27:14,756 --> 00:27:16,236 Speaker 2: show up for it was a late night concert at 537 00:27:16,276 --> 00:27:18,516 Speaker 2: eleven thirty. He probably had a few beers. They're going 538 00:27:18,516 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 2: to show up at this concert and there'll be no concert. 539 00:27:21,236 --> 00:27:23,636 Speaker 2: There'll be know Keith Jarrett. So Jarrett decided, okay, I 540 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:25,436 Speaker 2: have to do it. I have to play this thing. 541 00:27:25,756 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 2: And so he walks out on stage in front of 542 00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:32,556 Speaker 2: this packed auditorium fourteen hundred people sits down to play 543 00:27:32,836 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 2: this piano that he knows is unplayable, and it is 544 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 2: the concert of a lifetime. It is his most successful 545 00:27:39,036 --> 00:27:43,476 Speaker 2: ever recording, and because of the manifest limitations of the piano, 546 00:27:43,556 --> 00:27:47,036 Speaker 2: he was forced into playing what was basically a much 547 00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:51,636 Speaker 2: simpler melody, a much simpler approach to improvised jazz than 548 00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 2: he would normally use. He was using a restricted number 549 00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:57,276 Speaker 2: of keys, he was avoiding certain areas of the keyboard, 550 00:27:57,436 --> 00:27:59,756 Speaker 2: he was keeping it quite simple and rhythmic. And the 551 00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:02,436 Speaker 2: point is he could have done that on any piano, 552 00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:05,476 Speaker 2: and yet he didn't because it never occurred to him. 553 00:28:05,516 --> 00:28:05,716 Speaker 3: You know. 554 00:28:05,756 --> 00:28:07,876 Speaker 2: He always wanted to use the full range of what 555 00:28:07,956 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 2: was available, and it was only when all of those 556 00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:14,236 Speaker 2: options were cut off and he was absolutely backed into 557 00:28:14,316 --> 00:28:18,156 Speaker 2: this corner that he discovered this simple style, which continues 558 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:21,556 Speaker 2: to be his most loved work. And I think that's 559 00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 2: just an insight into the way that we don't do 560 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 2: it unless we're forced to. We often need this disruption, 561 00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:30,436 Speaker 2: we need this problem to occur before we find a 562 00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:33,476 Speaker 2: new solution, a new way of solving our problems. And 563 00:28:33,516 --> 00:28:35,636 Speaker 2: that new solution, in this case and in many cases, 564 00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:38,916 Speaker 2: actually involves doing less than we've done before. 565 00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:40,836 Speaker 3: And I think this is one of the strategies that 566 00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:43,436 Speaker 3: Lighty Klotz mentions in his book right, which is to 567 00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 3: pretend that you're forced into this, like he suggests in 568 00:28:46,556 --> 00:28:48,876 Speaker 3: a business meeting, and when you're trying to figure out 569 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:52,196 Speaker 3: some problem, to just have somebody on the team say, Okay, 570 00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:54,436 Speaker 3: what if we were forced to take something away? What 571 00:28:54,476 --> 00:28:56,636 Speaker 3: if we were unable to add something and we just 572 00:28:56,716 --> 00:28:57,756 Speaker 3: had to take something out? 573 00:28:57,796 --> 00:28:58,876 Speaker 1: What would we take out? 574 00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:01,756 Speaker 3: Right? That kind of thought exercise winds up putting you 575 00:29:01,836 --> 00:29:05,236 Speaker 3: in the simulated situation where maybe you can't add anything else, 576 00:29:05,276 --> 00:29:06,316 Speaker 3: you got to take something away. 577 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:07,956 Speaker 1: What would be the one thing you take away? 578 00:29:08,276 --> 00:29:10,836 Speaker 3: And the experiment, while it doesn't come to our mind naturally, 579 00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:12,916 Speaker 3: when you kind of strong arm people and say no, no, no, 580 00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:14,436 Speaker 3: you have to pick something to take away, what would 581 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:16,676 Speaker 3: that be, all of a sudden, the strategies can start 582 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:19,036 Speaker 3: seeming a little bit more obvious. So that's kind of 583 00:29:19,036 --> 00:29:21,316 Speaker 3: one of my favorite ones, is to ask this question, Okay, 584 00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 3: if I was forced to take one thing away, what 585 00:29:23,836 --> 00:29:26,996 Speaker 3: would that be. It's helped me in my schedule immensely 586 00:29:27,356 --> 00:29:29,476 Speaker 3: right where I'm looking at the month ahead and I'm like, 587 00:29:29,596 --> 00:29:31,756 Speaker 3: there are just too many trips, Like I just can't 588 00:29:31,756 --> 00:29:34,316 Speaker 3: fit all this travel in. Sometimes I ask myself, okay, 589 00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:36,356 Speaker 3: if I had to take one away, like if you know, 590 00:29:36,436 --> 00:29:38,236 Speaker 3: I don't know, some huge deity came down as like 591 00:29:38,276 --> 00:29:40,476 Speaker 3: no o, your's this kind of schedule monster, like you 592 00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:41,956 Speaker 3: have to take one thing out of there? What would 593 00:29:41,996 --> 00:29:44,716 Speaker 3: it be? Usually I have an obvious answer. I'm like, well, 594 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:46,236 Speaker 3: I didn't want to do that trip. That's the one 595 00:29:46,236 --> 00:29:47,956 Speaker 3: that's kind of least interesting to me, or maybe the 596 00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:50,236 Speaker 3: least valuable, And that can kind of force you to 597 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 3: realize like, oh wait, maybe I can just take that 598 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 3: one out. You don't need the mean schedule monster to 599 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:56,156 Speaker 3: show up to kind of force you to take something out. 600 00:29:56,196 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 1: You can make that decision for yourself. 601 00:29:58,236 --> 00:30:03,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it reminds me we often see politicians saying, oh, 602 00:30:03,156 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 2: we're going to have a rule that if you introduce 603 00:30:05,956 --> 00:30:08,996 Speaker 2: some new regulation, you're not allowed to do that unless 604 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:11,596 Speaker 2: you cancel an old regulation, a kind of one in 605 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:14,156 Speaker 2: one out, or sometimes it's one in two out. You 606 00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:16,396 Speaker 2: have to cancel more regulations than you had, and to 607 00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,956 Speaker 2: some extent it's a bit silly. I used to long, long, long, long, 608 00:30:19,956 --> 00:30:22,636 Speaker 2: time ago, I used to work in regulatory reform at 609 00:30:22,636 --> 00:30:24,436 Speaker 2: the World Bank, and we used to try to measure 610 00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:28,396 Speaker 2: the burden of different business regulations around the world. Fascinating work, 611 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:31,116 Speaker 2: and we try to be quite sophisticated and try to 612 00:30:31,396 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 2: produce all these comparisons. So one country could say, well, 613 00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:36,276 Speaker 2: this is the regulations for setting up a business in 614 00:30:36,596 --> 00:30:39,596 Speaker 2: this country. But if you're an entrepreneur in the neighboring country, 615 00:30:39,796 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 2: it doesn't take you a year to set up a business. 616 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:45,396 Speaker 2: It takes you seven days. So why is that? What 617 00:30:45,436 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 2: are the stages that take so long in one country 618 00:30:47,916 --> 00:30:51,276 Speaker 2: and that don't exist in another country. That's really insightful, 619 00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:54,276 Speaker 2: I think, and informative. But sometimes just that simple rule 620 00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:57,196 Speaker 2: is hey, you've got to remove a regulation, figure out 621 00:30:57,196 --> 00:30:59,956 Speaker 2: what it is. Sometimes that's enough that'll do the job. 622 00:31:00,436 --> 00:31:02,596 Speaker 3: Another thing that does the job is really trying to 623 00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:05,516 Speaker 3: harness your inner economists and to really think about what 624 00:31:05,556 --> 00:31:08,916 Speaker 3: those active opportunity costs are like to really be mindful 625 00:31:08,956 --> 00:31:10,956 Speaker 3: of the other kinds of things you could be doing 626 00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 3: if you were able to subtract something. And one of 627 00:31:13,436 --> 00:31:15,756 Speaker 3: my favorite strategies for that I first learned about in 628 00:31:16,036 --> 00:31:19,556 Speaker 3: Hal Hirschfeldt's great book about our time biases. He talks 629 00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:22,316 Speaker 3: about what economists and psychologists have referred to as the 630 00:31:22,556 --> 00:31:24,876 Speaker 3: yes damn effect and how to deal with it. And 631 00:31:24,876 --> 00:31:26,876 Speaker 3: so the yes damn effect is probably something that will 632 00:31:26,876 --> 00:31:29,836 Speaker 3: be familiar to many of our listeners. Somebody says, hey 633 00:31:29,876 --> 00:31:31,916 Speaker 3: do you want to do this presentation? Or Hey do 634 00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 3: you want to go to this kind of not very 635 00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 3: interesting dinner party, or hey do you want to sign 636 00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:37,476 Speaker 3: up something in your schedule? 637 00:31:37,916 --> 00:31:39,956 Speaker 1: And you feel kind of bad, so you're like yes. 638 00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:43,316 Speaker 3: Then weeks later that project or that dinner party comes up, 639 00:31:43,476 --> 00:31:45,236 Speaker 3: and that's where you say damn. 640 00:31:45,756 --> 00:31:47,236 Speaker 1: And so that's the yes damn effect. 641 00:31:47,236 --> 00:31:49,916 Speaker 3: You say yes to something, time passes and then you 642 00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:51,916 Speaker 3: see it in your calendar and you're like, damn. 643 00:31:52,436 --> 00:31:53,356 Speaker 1: So how do we deal with this? 644 00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:56,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's very familiar. I know that experience. 645 00:31:56,956 --> 00:31:58,036 Speaker 1: It's not unique to me. 646 00:31:58,316 --> 00:32:01,716 Speaker 2: Yeah. My general kind of heuristic is I should just 647 00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:03,836 Speaker 2: say no to more things than I think I should, 648 00:32:04,076 --> 00:32:06,356 Speaker 2: and over experience you learn it, but then you know 649 00:32:06,436 --> 00:32:09,476 Speaker 2: it's never entirely successful. So is there a tick that 650 00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:11,956 Speaker 2: you'd recommend to get more out of this yes? 651 00:32:11,996 --> 00:32:15,516 Speaker 3: And the trick is what's known as the no yay effect, 652 00:32:15,876 --> 00:32:18,036 Speaker 3: or you kind of do the same thing, except you 653 00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:21,316 Speaker 3: start by saying no and then you experience the consequences 654 00:32:21,356 --> 00:32:22,756 Speaker 3: later on of what that feels like. 655 00:32:23,276 --> 00:32:25,436 Speaker 1: So let's kind of play this out. Lauria, do you 656 00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:26,396 Speaker 1: want to do some project? 657 00:32:26,876 --> 00:32:27,036 Speaker 3: You know? 658 00:32:27,156 --> 00:32:27,836 Speaker 1: To do this date? 659 00:32:28,116 --> 00:32:30,236 Speaker 3: I say no, definitely don't want to do that. But 660 00:32:30,556 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 3: I don't stop there. I record the fact that I 661 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:35,316 Speaker 3: was asked to do this, and so I go to 662 00:32:35,356 --> 00:32:37,316 Speaker 3: that date in my calendar when that project I just 663 00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:40,396 Speaker 3: said no to would have been due, and I write in, Hey, Laura, 664 00:32:40,436 --> 00:32:42,396 Speaker 3: you didn't have to do the project this day. And 665 00:32:42,436 --> 00:32:44,356 Speaker 3: then you get to that date in the calendar and 666 00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:46,756 Speaker 3: you realize, oh, my gosh, my day would have been 667 00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:49,156 Speaker 3: so much worse if I had that huge project to do, 668 00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:51,476 Speaker 3: and then you have the experience of yay. 669 00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:53,156 Speaker 1: And so this is the no yea effect. 670 00:32:53,196 --> 00:32:54,876 Speaker 3: And the reason I love it so much is it 671 00:32:54,916 --> 00:32:57,956 Speaker 3: gives you these kind of periodic reminders of the fact 672 00:32:58,036 --> 00:33:01,756 Speaker 3: that saying no had a reward, right, Like you are 673 00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:04,636 Speaker 3: training your brain to notice that no doesn't just kind 674 00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:06,676 Speaker 3: of feel yucky in the moment, because I hate saying 675 00:33:06,716 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 3: no to stuff. I don't like the feeling of like oh, 676 00:33:08,716 --> 00:33:10,836 Speaker 3: it's wanted me to do it. I feel kind of bad. 677 00:33:10,836 --> 00:33:13,476 Speaker 3: I feel kind of guilty. You're kind of giving yourself 678 00:33:13,596 --> 00:33:17,116 Speaker 3: the opposite emotional reaction when that date of the thing 679 00:33:17,196 --> 00:33:19,636 Speaker 3: finally comes up, where you get the moment to remember, 680 00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:21,796 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I just saved myself this time. I'm 681 00:33:21,796 --> 00:33:24,276 Speaker 3: so kind of proud of myself unhappy. And so the 682 00:33:24,356 --> 00:33:26,796 Speaker 3: no yay effect has been really powerful for me because 683 00:33:26,836 --> 00:33:29,636 Speaker 3: it's helped me like, remember how happy I am that 684 00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:30,956 Speaker 3: I didn't sign up for something. 685 00:33:30,796 --> 00:33:33,156 Speaker 2: In the first I really like that, Laurie. It's very 686 00:33:33,356 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 2: it's very clever. I actually have an even simpler hack 687 00:33:36,636 --> 00:33:40,196 Speaker 2: that I use all the time. So this works if 688 00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:42,876 Speaker 2: there's someone else to whom you're accountable, if you have 689 00:33:43,516 --> 00:33:46,596 Speaker 2: a spouse, for example. And this just going back to 690 00:33:46,636 --> 00:33:50,076 Speaker 2: that original insight about opportunity cost, like everything you say 691 00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:52,156 Speaker 2: yes to is getting in the way of something else, 692 00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:55,836 Speaker 2: And flip that around. Everything you say no to every 693 00:33:55,876 --> 00:33:58,436 Speaker 2: time you're invited to some commitment, every time you say 694 00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:01,036 Speaker 2: no to that, you're saying yes to something else. So 695 00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:02,876 Speaker 2: the way I phrase it is if I say no 696 00:34:03,156 --> 00:34:07,116 Speaker 2: to some trip, some dinner, some commitment, if I say 697 00:34:07,156 --> 00:34:09,996 Speaker 2: no to that I'm also saying yeah, yes to my family. 698 00:34:10,276 --> 00:34:11,516 Speaker 2: I'm going to be at home. I'm going to be 699 00:34:11,556 --> 00:34:13,836 Speaker 2: spending time with my wife and kids. But I don't 700 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:16,556 Speaker 2: just tell myself that. I tell my wife that, and 701 00:34:16,996 --> 00:34:20,436 Speaker 2: when I am replying to the email, because it's always 702 00:34:20,476 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 2: an email, when I'm replying to the email saying this 703 00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:26,036 Speaker 2: is really kind, but I'm afraid I can't do it. 704 00:34:26,356 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 2: I just blind copy my wife and it's like a 705 00:34:29,076 --> 00:34:31,596 Speaker 2: little note to her, look at what I just said 706 00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:33,396 Speaker 2: no to, because I'm saying yes to you, And it 707 00:34:33,476 --> 00:34:37,156 Speaker 2: just makes it much more positive to me. Slightly fills 708 00:34:37,156 --> 00:34:40,076 Speaker 2: my wife's inbox with my refused invitations, but I think 709 00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:44,236 Speaker 2: that overall she appreciates that visibility into the decisions I'm 710 00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:46,436 Speaker 2: having to make every day and saying I'm not going 711 00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:48,756 Speaker 2: to do this, I have something more important waiting for 712 00:34:48,796 --> 00:34:49,316 Speaker 2: me at home. 713 00:34:49,516 --> 00:34:51,996 Speaker 1: I bet that increases marital satisfaction in a bunch of 714 00:34:52,036 --> 00:34:53,636 Speaker 1: different ways. I might have to do this. 715 00:34:53,716 --> 00:34:56,036 Speaker 3: My poor husband's inbox is going to implode with all 716 00:34:56,036 --> 00:34:58,836 Speaker 3: the things I'm saying no too. But the cool thing 717 00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:00,476 Speaker 3: is that there are these ways that we can kind 718 00:35:00,476 --> 00:35:03,116 Speaker 3: of bring subtraction to the forefront. It doesn't come naturally, 719 00:35:03,196 --> 00:35:05,676 Speaker 3: but like with a little bit of extra work, scribbling 720 00:35:05,716 --> 00:35:08,516 Speaker 3: things in the calendar and extra BCC on the email 721 00:35:09,236 --> 00:35:11,396 Speaker 3: kind of bring subtraction to light and maybe that will 722 00:35:11,396 --> 00:35:12,956 Speaker 3: make us a little bit happier. 723 00:35:13,516 --> 00:35:15,316 Speaker 1: Tim, thank you so much for joining me on the 724 00:35:15,316 --> 00:35:15,956 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab. 725 00:35:16,036 --> 00:35:18,436 Speaker 2: Well, it's been a pleasure, Laurie, thank you for joining 726 00:35:18,476 --> 00:35:21,916 Speaker 2: me on Cautionary Tales. Dr Laurie Santos, as you know, 727 00:35:22,276 --> 00:35:24,116 Speaker 2: is the host of the Happiness Lab. 728 00:35:24,036 --> 00:35:26,836 Speaker 3: And Tim Harford, as you know, host Cautionary Tales. Both 729 00:35:26,876 --> 00:35:29,956 Speaker 3: podcasts are productions of Pushkin Industries and are available wherever 730 00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:30,916 Speaker 3: you get your podcasts. 731 00:35:31,316 --> 00:35:34,356 Speaker 2: Now, this is the last of our planned crossover episodes, 732 00:35:34,396 --> 00:35:36,756 Speaker 2: but it isn't the final time that we're going to 733 00:35:36,756 --> 00:35:40,436 Speaker 2: be collaborating. On March the twentieth, Laurie and I are 734 00:35:40,436 --> 00:35:43,156 Speaker 2: going to be teaming up for a special show dedicated 735 00:35:43,276 --> 00:35:44,636 Speaker 2: to World Happiness Day. 736 00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:47,316 Speaker 3: Yes, Tim will be joining me for a chat alongside 737 00:35:47,356 --> 00:35:50,916 Speaker 3: our fellow Pushkin podcast hosts Maya Schunker and Malcolm Gladwell. 738 00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:53,436 Speaker 3: We we'll all be considering ideas for making the world 739 00:35:53,476 --> 00:35:55,876 Speaker 3: a slightly happier place, and we hope to see you 740 00:35:55,916 --> 00:36:03,276 Speaker 3: back then.