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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: we never told your production of iHeart Radio. And today

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Speaker 1: we wanted to bring back one we mentioned in our

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Speaker 1: Airbnb one, which is about Uber and Lyft and ride

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Speaker 1: sharing in general, um and how that's the problems of

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Speaker 1: it and how it's reshaped our economy. We do need

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Speaker 1: to come back into a full revisit because it's changed

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Speaker 1: so much since this, and also it was kind of funny,

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Speaker 1: such annoying. The day after that, I think the day

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Speaker 1: that Airbnb one came out, there was a huge report

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Speaker 1: about air and with and then I've saw so many

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Speaker 1: complaints outside of that, I was like, my lord, look

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Speaker 1: at this, that happens to ussel I swear every time

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Speaker 1: I try to be topical, something like that happens. I

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Speaker 1: promise listeners that had not come out episode, but I

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Speaker 1: did want to mention I'm not going to go into

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Speaker 1: the full story because Samantha hasn't even heard it yet

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Speaker 1: and it's quite long. I had to take a forty

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Speaker 1: minute trick recently and I took a lift driver and

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Speaker 1: she was very kind, but she immediately diagnosed me as

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Speaker 1: a people please her and was like, here, here's what

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Speaker 1: you need to do, here's how you're going to stand

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Speaker 1: up for yourself. I'm just giving me all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And she kept asking me questions and it kept getting

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Speaker 1: worse and worse, you know, and she's like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is worse than I thought any and she was using

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Speaker 1: my name and I was like, okay, well I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: you're right, I'm going to confront these issues whatever whatever.

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Speaker 1: I get dropped off at the location an hour and

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes later, I have to call another lift and

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Speaker 1: not a sponsor currently by the way, and uh, it's

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Speaker 1: the same woman who picks me up. Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand that. What if she searched for your name? She

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Speaker 1: was like, I knew to see you. I was standing

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Speaker 1: outside in the dark and it was drizzling in cold,

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Speaker 1: and she drove up, lowered her window and did the

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Speaker 1: most like sweetest but very judgmental shake of her head

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen like you did not confront these issues.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, no, ma'am, it's only the same day,

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Speaker 1: it's the same night. Makes things like this right now.

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Speaker 1: And then it continued on the way back. It was

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Speaker 1: so funny. I felt like I was being scolded in

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Speaker 1: the most fond way. Um, I have to tell you

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Speaker 1: all about it because she had some interesting things to say.

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Speaker 1: Oh Lord, agree or disagreel let's see, let's see, yes,

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, oh yes. Please. But in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll revisit that the whole story on the show.

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Speaker 1: But please enjoy this classic episode. Hey friends, Christen here

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Speaker 1: with a quick correction. In this episode, I share a

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Speaker 1: story about a girlfriend of mine who got harassed in

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Speaker 1: an uber. But in this episode I say it was

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Speaker 1: a lift, but in fact I fact checked the story

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Speaker 1: with my friend and she said it was in fact

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Speaker 1: an uber, not a lift. And the quote it was intense,

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Speaker 1: but I got two weeks of half off rides, so

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Speaker 1: worth it. Dot dot dot sad face emoji. Now onto

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Speaker 1: the show. Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From

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Speaker 1: House top works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking

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Speaker 1: about Uber, Lift, past, Grabbit, Instacart, et cetera, all of

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Speaker 1: these new app based companies that comprise the sharing or

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Speaker 1: gig economy as it's also known as Yes, I gotta

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Speaker 1: say I love a lot of these apps. They make

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Speaker 1: life easier. I use insta Cart like once a week, probably, um,

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Speaker 1: because who has to have to go to the grocery store.

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Speaker 1: This episode is not brought to you by any of

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Speaker 1: these companies, I assure you, but I am curious. Has

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Speaker 1: it replaced your grocery shopping? For the last part, my

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Speaker 1: husband is currently obsessed with Uber Eats, which means we

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Speaker 1: are not grocery shopping as much as we should be. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: so I've been sick and my boyfriend has been away working,

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Speaker 1: and so there's been really no incentive for me to

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Speaker 1: like cook a big dinner because I just don't have

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Speaker 1: the appetite for it. So I've been using Uber Eats,

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Speaker 1: and I gotta tell you, I was actually disappointed because

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Speaker 1: not in Uber eats. But I pulled up my Caviare

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Speaker 1: app the other night, which is another meal delivery service.

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Speaker 1: They'll pick it up from a restaurant. They are no

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Speaker 1: longer in Atlanta. Really, Yeah, so I guess I have

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Speaker 1: to delete Caviare from my phone. Um, but I definitely

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Speaker 1: have been relying on Uber Eats and insta Cart quite

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Speaker 1: a bit. I actually met my a cart driver at

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Speaker 1: the door the other day, said thank you so much

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Speaker 1: you don't realize how much you're saving a really sick person.

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Speaker 1: As she hands me bags of chicken noodle soup, Thailan

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Speaker 1: all Colden signs saltine crackers. Well, this reminds me too

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Speaker 1: of a women in Tech breakfast that I went to

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Speaker 1: a while back, where this panel was going around giving

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Speaker 1: their just go to advice for essentially making your life

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Speaker 1: easier if you're an ambitious woman in tech or really anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And one of the oldest women on the panel, who

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Speaker 1: also has kids, who is h v i P in

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Speaker 1: her sector, set outsource everything that you can, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of that relies on the sharing economy. I was

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Speaker 1: actually talking to a girlfriend last night who is working

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Speaker 1: in a really demanding job and she has started outsourcing

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Speaker 1: her house cleaning via it's not task grab it, but

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Speaker 1: it's something tailor. It might be through handy um, and

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Speaker 1: she talked about how it's so worth the money because

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Speaker 1: of just the any cleaning related tension that might be

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Speaker 1: in the house between her and her husband. It's just

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Speaker 1: taken care of now. Side note for your friend, she

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Speaker 1: is brilliant because this is something I've literally discussed in therapy,

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Speaker 1: and my therapist has encouraged my boyfriend and me who

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Speaker 1: lived together, um too ethically higher uh professional or some

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Speaker 1: type of contractor to come in and clean at least

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Speaker 1: once a month, And of course, like we don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: have the time or the money. And I also have

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Speaker 1: that guilt of like I've at least got to pick

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Speaker 1: the house up first. I feel the same way because

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Speaker 1: the thing is and and and boyfriend dog, you know,

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Speaker 1: with with him being in the studio and me having

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Speaker 1: been sick and whatever, like, we haven't been able to

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Speaker 1: clean the house and it both stresses us out to

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Speaker 1: the max. But the thing is, we still just have

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Speaker 1: so much stuff on the floor. So he was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, while you're not feeling well and I'm at work, like,

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Speaker 1: why don't we use one of those apps to like

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Speaker 1: have someone come over and clean? And I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not having a stranger come in this house to

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Speaker 1: pick up when there's so much on the floor that

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Speaker 1: they can't even like start the vacuum, right, Like I

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Speaker 1: at least need to put some crap in the attic

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Speaker 1: before I have somebody come over. But then I also

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Speaker 1: have the fear of all of these horror stories I've

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Speaker 1: heard about like the handyman or cleaner comes over and

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Speaker 1: like extorts you for money, or like won't leave. I

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Speaker 1: used I won't tell you the app. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to upset anyone. UM. I used one of those apps

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Speaker 1: to have a handyman come over. I needed the driveway

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Speaker 1: and the backpath. I needed like everything around my house

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Speaker 1: pressure washed because we have all sorts of grass stuff

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Speaker 1: everywhere on the driveway. And uh, bless his heart that

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Speaker 1: God did not know how do you as a pressure washer?

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Speaker 1: I had to go out. I wasted like two hours

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Speaker 1: that day, like helping him run the pressure washer. So

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Speaker 1: I wasted a lot of time and money. And so

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Speaker 1: I don't think I will ever. I don't think I'll

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Speaker 1: ever use like one of those handyman apps again, but

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Speaker 1: potentially a house cleaner I would. So the how these

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Speaker 1: apps and the sharing economy can backfire both on the

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Speaker 1: user and the employee is going to be the focus

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Speaker 1: of this conversation UM. And beyond the potential of people

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Speaker 1: who are not qualified being hired to do these jobs,

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Speaker 1: there is a physical risk factor that UM is becoming

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Speaker 1: more and more of a concern a topic of conversation.

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Speaker 1: For instance, when I was in New York. A couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks ago, I was at a girlfriend's apartment and

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Speaker 1: talking about heading back to the airport, and I was

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Speaker 1: saying that I always use LIFT. I prefer them. The

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Speaker 1: drivers get a larger cut um than they do through Uber,

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Speaker 1: so I try to support them with that, and usually

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Speaker 1: they're cheaper. And she said, oh yeah, well I I

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Speaker 1: can ride for free on left for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: And I asked why, of course, and she said, well, um,

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Speaker 1: ever since a driver locked me in the car and

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Speaker 1: wouldn't let me out until I gave him my phone number,

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Speaker 1: they're giving me free rides left and right. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying this to try to implicate Lift in any way,

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Speaker 1: shape or form um, but she also said it so

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Speaker 1: casually and so excitedly, of like, oh yeah, I get

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Speaker 1: to ride around for free. This is kind of amazing.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, wait, let's go, let's go back.

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Speaker 1: Uh was that not terrifying? She's like, oh yeah, oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: She's also very tough though, you know, she's like she's

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Speaker 1: got that you know, New York tough thing. And I

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Speaker 1: was trying to kind of play it off, but uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's the there's there's also the risk involved with the

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Speaker 1: sharing economy, and also too, that's one reason why we're

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Speaker 1: seeing not only in the US but abroad the rise

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Speaker 1: of women only taxi companies. Yeah, I mean I think

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Speaker 1: I think all the time about also being in New

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Speaker 1: York a couple of months ago and getting into the

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Speaker 1: front seat of an uber just wasted. Um, we might

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Speaker 1: have gone out for drinks with some listeners, those listeners

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Speaker 1: might have been incredibly generous with buying us drinks. In anyway,

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Speaker 1: you guys gotta be wasted. And I get in this

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Speaker 1: uber and I'm like arguing in a good natured way.

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Speaker 1: The driver was very nice, but I'm like arguing with

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Speaker 1: him about Beyonce's feminism because he was like basically the

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Speaker 1: whole line of like Beyonce can't be a feminist because

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Speaker 1: she doesn't wear pants, and like she's she's a disgrace

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Speaker 1: to women in pop You should listen to Adele instead.

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Speaker 1: Nothing against Adele, but I like think back to that

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Speaker 1: and it's anything could happen, you know, And I mean

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Speaker 1: that's true of life in general, and true of traditional

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Speaker 1: cab drivers. Yeah, but like there is that that thing

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Speaker 1: of like, hey, you are just trusting that this person

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Speaker 1: will get you to your destination safely, not touch you

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Speaker 1: or do anything to harm or intimidate you, and then

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Speaker 1: unlock the car and let you out when you get

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Speaker 1: to your destination. Well, and that's the thing. There are

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Speaker 1: obviously those very real and legitimate safety concerns that these

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Speaker 1: companies like Uber, Left etcetera. Are needing to be more

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Speaker 1: accountable too. But then also there is on the back

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Speaker 1: end of it, the concern for how equitable these situations

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Speaker 1: are for the people who are taking these gigs. Who

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Speaker 1: are you know, doing these side hustles or they might

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Speaker 1: be their main hustles. Because the sharing economy has grown

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Speaker 1: so much and it's worth so much that there's a

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Speaker 1: risk that I mean, even at this point, we're trying

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Speaker 1: to gigify so much that we are not doing it

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Speaker 1: in a very ethical way. So just to put some

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Speaker 1: numbers though around why uh this is so bright and

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Speaker 1: shiny for Silicon Valley investors. So according to data from

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Speaker 1: Price Waterhouse Coopers, UH, the sharing economy global revenue could

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Speaker 1: grow from roughly fifteen billion today to three billion. That

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Speaker 1: is not so Obviously we got a gold mine and

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Speaker 1: people are russian to grab as much of it as

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Speaker 1: they can, and they're very popular. We just talked about

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Speaker 1: all of these apps and outsourcing that we're doing for

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Speaker 1: our day to day lives. The Pure Research Center in

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Speaker 1: sixteen found that seventy two of Americans have used a

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Speaker 1: shared or on demand service. Yeah, and I mean when

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Speaker 1: you look at the breakdown of who the workers are

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Speaker 1: a lot of them. Most of them are between eighteen

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Speaker 1: and thirty four versus just a third of the general

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Speaker 1: workforce being between eighteen and thirty four. The majority probably

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Speaker 1: because of their age and our generation tends to have

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Speaker 1: more college degrees. The majority of the gig economy workers

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Speaker 1: do have at least some college experience, and most use

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Speaker 1: their gig as a supplementary income, not as their main income.

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Speaker 1: And they're also way likelier to be male, especially if

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Speaker 1: they are an Uber driver. Um just of Uber drivers

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Speaker 1: or women versus Lift, which maybe this is why I'm

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Speaker 1: so into Lift even after my friends horror story. Lift

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Speaker 1: h employees female drivers and also has a lot more

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Speaker 1: female passengers like myself and also employs a leadership team

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Speaker 1: that's half women. Yeah. I thought that was interesting thing too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I um, I might be using Lift more often now anyway,

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Speaker 1: There's also the interesting gender breakdown that economists have commented

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Speaker 1: on that men are more likely to do the higher

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Speaker 1: paid gig economy work like being a handyman, like driving

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Speaker 1: for Uber, doing all of this stuff, versus women who

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Speaker 1: tend to and of course this is all broad brush stuff,

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Speaker 1: but tend to do more house cleaning work, more of

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Speaker 1: the light work quote unquote work on Etsy. Etsy is

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Speaker 1: of course largely women. It's something like what like women?

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Speaker 1: That is exactly the percent. I just I literally pulled

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Speaker 1: that out of my head. Um, maybe because I read

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Speaker 1: it last night. Um. And of course to that, Etsy says, listen,

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Speaker 1: not everybody's goal is to make a million dollars working

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Speaker 1: in this gig economy. But I do think that that's

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Speaker 1: important to keep kind of in the back of your

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Speaker 1: mind when you're looking who's employed doing what work, and

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Speaker 1: you know, without any sort of health insurance or benefits.

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Speaker 1: And on the flip side of that, if we look

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Speaker 1: at the users, they tend to be younger, no surprise,

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Speaker 1: we tend to have college degrees, but might be on

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Speaker 1: a financially shaky ground. I know that one reason why

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Speaker 1: myself and a lot of my friends use Uber and

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Speaker 1: lyft is because it's so much cheaper than getting a cab.

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Speaker 1: And also we're paying for a d U I well, exactly, well,

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Speaker 1: and also we live in Atlanta and unless you are

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Speaker 1: at the airport, cabs kind of don't exist around here. Um,

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Speaker 1: so that brings up this socio economic divide that Pure

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Speaker 1: Research also highlighted. Yeah, so you know, we mentioned a

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Speaker 1: second ago that oh my god, so many Americans use

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Speaker 1: ride sharing, use food delivery, use all of these sharing

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Speaker 1: economy apps. But Pew found that just ten of people

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Speaker 1: who live in homes with earnings below thirty dollars have

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Speaker 1: booked trips with ride hailing companies, for instance, and nearly

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Speaker 1: fifty of these people aren't familiar with them at all.

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Speaker 1: And when you move from ride sharing to a platform

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Speaker 1: like Airbnb, only four percent of Americans at that earning

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Speaker 1: point have used those home sharing or home rental platforms,

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Speaker 1: while sixty nine percent of people with earnings below thirty

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Speaker 1: thousand as their whole household number don't even know about

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Speaker 1: them at all. Oh yeah, I mean all this stuff

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Speaker 1: is to me like very much a luxury. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not You're not spending a ton of money

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Speaker 1: necessarily at one time, unless we go real bonkers on uberreds,

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Speaker 1: which has happened before. But I mean, it's still like

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Speaker 1: going out and getting a manicure rather than painting your

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Speaker 1: nails at home, you know, exactly exactly. And if you

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Speaker 1: are pinching every penny, counting every dollar, like, you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna want to pay the whatever seven nine insta cart

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Speaker 1: fee to get your groceries to within the very next hour,

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Speaker 1: which I do a lot actually because I want my

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Speaker 1: chicken little soup. But you know, I mean, and I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm saying this in jest, because of course that's

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Speaker 1: an incredibly privileged thing to be able to say, to

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Speaker 1: not only be aware of the app and use the app,

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Speaker 1: but also pay the extra money to get it delivered

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Speaker 1: as fast as possible. Absolutely. Um. But there was also

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Speaker 1: this issue of inclusivity, and here's kind of the twisted things.

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Speaker 1: So there's this paper that came from Business for Social

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Speaker 1: Responsibility that was really pointing to inclusivity as a major

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Speaker 1: benefit for both share economy workers and customers, and one

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Speaker 1: of their consultants said, quote, the sharing economy offers a

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Speaker 1: way for people to act more independently and to democratize things. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I can see how you would come to that conclusion. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it is a more human business model than the old

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Speaker 1: economy with corporations and customers. And you know what, ideally, yes, absolutely, Um,

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Speaker 1: they're also benefits for the companies. When you have more

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Speaker 1: people who can participate in the sharing economy, companies are

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Speaker 1: going to benefit from untapped revenue i e. User acquisition,

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Speaker 1: and a more intentional focus on inclusion could strengthen companies

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Speaker 1: contributions to communities and build trust with governments seeking to

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Speaker 1: regulate them. So this all sounds so great. It sounds

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Speaker 1: so great, so great, um, and you know there is

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Speaker 1: a benefit. There can be a really great benefit for

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Speaker 1: marginalized or underserved communities when you have things like rides

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Speaker 1: sharing apps, and that inclusivity could help connect people to

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Speaker 1: goods and services that maybe are out of reach otherwise.

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Speaker 1: You know, it could dismantle some of those barriers that

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Speaker 1: people face to ownership. For instance, if they're able to

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Speaker 1: like use zip car, where they can you know, share

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Speaker 1: a car essentially to get from there, you know, train

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Speaker 1: station to wherever they're going. Um. There was a New

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Speaker 1: York University study on the sharing economy impact. That was

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Speaker 1: based on data from get Around, which is a car

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Speaker 1: sharing service kind of like a zip car um. They

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Speaker 1: found that ride sharing had a disproportionately positive effect on

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Speaker 1: lower income consumers because ownership is a barrier to consumption.

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Speaker 1: So if people are allowed and able to consume, that's

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Speaker 1: a boon to companies who are trying to make money,

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Speaker 1: but it's also a boon for people in communities who

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Speaker 1: are just trying to get places. Uber did a study

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Speaker 1: in l A and they found that their Uber x

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Speaker 1: rides are available in twenty one low income neighborhoods at

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Speaker 1: a lower price than taxis and that they arrive in

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Speaker 1: less than half the time. And there have been other

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Speaker 1: studies that have shown that telephone dispatch taxi services in

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Speaker 1: poor urban neighborhoods, for instance, are consistently slower and less

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Speaker 1: reliable than taxi services and wealthier communities. And I remember,

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Speaker 1: I mean this was before Uber and left, but I

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Speaker 1: remember being at a birthday party years ago now and

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Speaker 1: everybody was just so drunk and um we literally tried

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Speaker 1: to call a cab, but it just we kept getting

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Speaker 1: a busy signal, busy signal. When we finally got through

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Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, it's gonna be about two hours. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was already like one in the morning. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: our friend who had just had and we were like downtown,

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Speaker 1: uh in Augusta. And our friend who has mistake, they're

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Speaker 1: no kidding. Uh. And our friend who had just had

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Speaker 1: a lot less to drink than the rest of us

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Speaker 1: but was not sober, was the one who like slowly

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Speaker 1: and carefully drove us home. Yeah. So I mean obviously,

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Speaker 1: like these are these are good services, Like we can

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Speaker 1: use these kinds of things their positives. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: mean according to a Pew survey, I mean Pews all

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Speaker 1: over this of rides sharing, users in general feel that

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Speaker 1: these services are less likely to discriminate against people based

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Speaker 1: on their race or appearance than taxis are little come

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Speaker 1: back to that one in a little bit, but I

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Speaker 1: mean this is important because access to transportation. The Brookings

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Speaker 1: Institution found, uh to get to work is correlated with

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Speaker 1: upper mobility. I mean, there's that super common sense. There's

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Speaker 1: no surprise there. Being able to get to work on

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Speaker 1: time is hugely correlated with continuing to be employed. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: in a lot of metro areas, including Atlanta, where you

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Speaker 1: and I are do not have adequate public transportation options,

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Speaker 1: and only a quarter of low and middle skilled jobs

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Speaker 1: are accessible via public transit that take ninety minutes or

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Speaker 1: US in the largest US metro areas, and low income

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Speaker 1: people are more likely to work during off hours and

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Speaker 1: less likely to have a driver's license. Not to mention, like,

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Speaker 1: your shorter commutes usually don't happen if you are living

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Speaker 1: in a low income area, right, yeah, And I um again, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean to make this all about me. I'm

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Speaker 1: just trying to give anecdotal examples that yeah, right, um.

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Speaker 1: But So I was looking at Zillo the other day

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Speaker 1: to see, like, oh, can my boyfriend and I afford

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Speaker 1: to move anytime soon? No? Okay, cool? So I found

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Speaker 1: an affordable, nice house for rent, like way farther out

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Speaker 1: than where we live now, and I was like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I wonder how long it would take me to get

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Speaker 1: to work, And I plugged it in and during a

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Speaker 1: no traffic time in Atlanta, that's pretty rare. But during

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Speaker 1: a time of no traffic, it would take me about

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Speaker 1: twenty five minutes from that house to get to the office,

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Speaker 1: which that's not terrible, especially based on Atlanta times. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I like, well, I don't know if I want

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Speaker 1: to drive that, Like it's kind of close to a

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Speaker 1: train station. A Marta is the train system here in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Let me let me see, according to Google Maps, how

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Speaker 1: long it would take me to get to my job

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Speaker 1: using Atlanta Mass Transit over ninety minutes. Oh, I'm not

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Speaker 1: surprised because I would have had to take a bus

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Speaker 1: or walk a long way to the train station first

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Speaker 1: of all, and then take the train all the way down.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know if it disappears into

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Speaker 1: a wormhole. Why is it taking the train so long

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Speaker 1: to get to midten Atlanta? Anyway, take the train all

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Speaker 1: the way to Midtenan, Atlanta, and then take another bus

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Speaker 1: to the office. And it's like, I have the luxury

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Speaker 1: of a Honda Fit. I could make that or thirty

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Speaker 1: minute commute from that far out house, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the part of Atlanta that's still affordable, Um, but far

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Speaker 1: from everybody has that luxury. Yeah. So again benefits to

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Speaker 1: this sharing economy, but that is really when all other

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Speaker 1: variables aren't controlled for you know what I mean that

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Speaker 1: this is the best case scenario situation for this because

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Speaker 1: of course, as we've already mentioned there are obvious downsides,

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Speaker 1: starting with shrinking workers rights. Yeah, so this is a

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Speaker 1: huge thing that economists have pointed out that labor protections

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Speaker 1: under the Fair Labor Standards Act generally don't apply to

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Speaker 1: these independent contractors. And that's why you should be scared

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Speaker 1: about the numbers that Christens cited at the top of

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Speaker 1: the podcast in terms of like the billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: that the sharing economy is going to be worth by,

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Speaker 1: because that's a lot of money going to people who

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Speaker 1: don't have any legal recourse against abuse, etcetera, etcetera. So

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Speaker 1: um Airbnb, for instance, requires people to wave their right

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Speaker 1: to sue or join any class action lawsuit. And uh

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Speaker 1: Tom Slee, who's the author of What's Yours Is Mine,

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Speaker 1: told broadly that he sees this general chipping away of

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Speaker 1: protections for people who have fought for those protections tooth

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Speaker 1: and nail, women, people of color, people with disabilities. He said,

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Speaker 1: it's not really fashionable to be in favor of bureaucracy

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Speaker 1: and rules, but equal pay for equal work, minimum wage laws,

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Speaker 1: employment standards that limit employers right to fire at will,

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Speaker 1: and anti discrimination laws were the result of years of

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Speaker 1: struggle by feminists, unionists, and anti racism groups. I don't

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Speaker 1: think they should be thrown away just because a new

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Speaker 1: app has a rating system. And I mean that all

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Speaker 1: rating system thing is something that Polack Shaw with the

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Speaker 1: National Domestic Workers Alliance points out can hold a lot

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Speaker 1: of power over someone's head. Shaw said that that rating

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Speaker 1: system that like every app has, can result in workers

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Speaker 1: finishing a job when they don't feel safe just for

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Speaker 1: fear of receiving a poor rating, and there for less

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Speaker 1: work because yeah, I mean, if you do a terrible job,

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Speaker 1: you should get a terrible rating. If you harass a customer,

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Speaker 1: yeah you should get a terrible rating and be fired.

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Speaker 1: But if you are at the home of someone who

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Speaker 1: is a great a jerk, maybe they're harassing you or

429
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: threatening you or whatever. I mean to to have to

430
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: feel like you've got to put up with that just

431
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: to be able to continue to work, because who knows,

432
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: maybe you haven't been able to get a job in

433
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: the mainstream economy and this is the way that you

434
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: have to make money. And companies would say, oh, well,

435
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: that's why we allow our employees to also write the customers,

436
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: But it doesn't account for the actual situation that that

437
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: employee might still have to go through in order to

438
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: get to the point of rating a customer. I mean,

439
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: uber drivers, lift drivers, etcetera. They can kick people out

440
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: of their cars and say, you know, I'm not going

441
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: to deal with this person and it's not going to

442
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: hurt them necessarily. But Shaw brings up a really important point,

443
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: especially if you are in someone else's home. I mean,

444
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: I think the situation is probably different with a ride

445
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: sharing UH set up because you're in your own car,

446
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, so you you might have feel like you

447
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: have a little bit more leverage to not put up

448
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: with ridiculous people. Yeah, And I mean I think also,

449
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: I mean you're likely if you have to kick out

450
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: a violent passenger, someone's probably gonna catch that on a

451
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: on an iPhone. Honestly, Like the the woman who was

452
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: drunk in that Uber guy's car and started like hitting

453
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: him and throwing things at him from the backseat, and

454
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: he was trying to remove her and not like hurt

455
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: her at the same time, and she was hitting him

456
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: kicking him. I mean, it was. It can be crazy

457
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: and not the taxi drivers don't put up with that,

458
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of abuse that you can take

459
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: as a worker for some of these gig apps, which

460
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: is why some people are pushing Uber and others to

461
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: require drivers to have cameras in their cars, like we're

462
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 1: doing with police, both to protect customers and drivers. Um.

463
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: But it's like, once you get home, your shift is done. Okay,

464
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: you might have pocketed some cash, probably not as much

465
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: as advertisements would lead you to believe that you're going

466
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: to make UM, but you're not going to get any

467
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 1: benefits on top of that, unless, of course, you are

468
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: classified as a direct employee of say a Handy or Uber. Yeah,

469
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: I mean because of things like the terrible child care

470
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: system and non existent family of system in this country.

471
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: Like maybe you are a woman who's opted to go

472
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: for more flexible work schedule like an Uber or a

473
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: lift can provide. But yeah, they're there, it's not like

474
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: they're providing for you in any way. Not. I mean,

475
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: no person who's employing a contractor has to provide for

476
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: you in that way. Well, and that's the thing I mean.

477
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: This to me is a symptom of a broader issue

478
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: of our contract economy. And how uh in I m

479
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: h O. There are way too many massive corporations that

480
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: are allowed to rely way too much on contract work

481
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: so that they don't have to pay benefits. Which is

482
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: interesting because I feel like a lot of this app

483
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: culture came out after the or or from the recession,

484
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: when it's like, Okay, well everybody's been laid off, but

485
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: we can bootstrap our own app and make millions and

486
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm a guy who's going to create

487
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: this app and make a lot of money to make

488
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: everybody's lives easier. Um So, but then you just end

489
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: up with a workforce that still isn't able to get

490
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: any sort of legal protections as full time employees. And

491
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: I mean, how how independent are you really when like,

492
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: for instance, if you're a driver for a driving service

493
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: a rideshare app, You've still got to pay your own

494
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: car expenses. You've still got to pay your own parking tickets,

495
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: which I totally feel like those companies should pay for

496
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: if you're a driver for them and you end up

497
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: getting a ticket anyway, Um, some drivers end up earning

498
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: like three bucks an hour after they have to pay

499
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 1: for all of this stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean,

500
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: and also depending on if you have to cancel rides,

501
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: and there's all sorts of stuff they can influence how

502
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: much money you're actually going to take home. And then

503
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: of course, on the flip side of that, there are

504
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: all sorts of concerns over consumer protection, including price transparency,

505
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: privacy risks, UH, safety standards, And these are the kinds

506
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: of issues that could leave users very vulnerable and have

507
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: left users vulnerable, particularly lower income users or are users

508
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: in more and just marginalized groups in general who have

509
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: fewer channels for legal recourse. Yeah, and I mean, you know,

510
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: Kristen was talking about the push to get Uber to

511
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: have cameras in their cars. Uber comes back with that saying, um,

512
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: it's too much of an expense for our new drivers. Um.

513
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: And Uber has been slammed lot for loopholes allowing them

514
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: to hire people with felony convictions. Because the thing is

515
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: and this is a thing that like taxi people have

516
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: been like hammering home a lot. Uh. And of course

517
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: they have their own agenda. But you know, Uber background

518
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: checks use a database that can only go back for

519
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: seven years, and they refuse to fingerprint their drivers versus

520
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: taxi companies who check a prospective driver's fingerprint records against

521
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: a database that theoretically include their complete criminal history in

522
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: this country. And the whole fingerprinting thing is why uh,

523
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: companies like Uber and Lift pulled out of Austin, Texas

524
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: for instance. Austin was ready to clamp down on you know,

525
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: safety rules and rags to try to protect customers, and

526
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: Uber was basically like, nope, so since what is its

527
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: spring of this year? Yeah? Yeah, there. It was actually

528
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: because of something called Proposition one that failed that, according

529
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: to the Daily Dot, would have replaced an ordinance adopted

530
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: into some are that required them to conduct those finger based,

531
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: fingerprint based background checks on the whole thing with those

532
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: FBI fingerprint checks that they take sixteen weeks, and Uber's like, nope,

533
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: that's a barrier to new drivers getting a job with

534
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: us so that they can quickly make money. And it

535
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: just really sounds like, well, no, that's more of honestly

536
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: a barrier to you making money off those drivers. But

537
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: that's neither handle there. Um. Actually that's the whole point

538
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: of this podcast, um. And in general, for communities that

539
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: you know, that Business for Social Responsibility Report talked a

540
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: lot about the inclusivity of these apps and services and

541
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: the benefits for low income communities. But the thing is

542
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: um because of all the money that's going toward rideshare apps,

543
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: for instance, that could actually result in a weekend push

544
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: for expanded public transit options. But like, who is that

545
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: affecting because a lot of people who don't use rides

546
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: share apps still need better pub transit. But like if

547
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: you and I don't care anymore about expanding public trans

548
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: in Atlanta because we're able to just hop into a lift,

549
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: that takes away a lot of the like vocal citizen

550
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: muscle that can go into saying no, no, no, we

551
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: still want you to expand Marta, Please expand Marta. So

552
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: essentially this means and this is what we're gonna do.

553
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: And the next half of the podcast, when we come

554
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: back from a quick break, is talk about the privilege

555
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: wrapped up in how the sharing economy is structured. And

556
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: we'll get back to that end just a second. Okay,

557
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: So obviously I was surprised to anyone racism. Hello, it

558
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: is a main factor and a lot of the crap

559
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: that goes on with the gig economy. You know that

560
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: that BSR report was like, it's an end to racism.

561
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: You don't have to discriminate against anyone because of their color.

562
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: Oh if only life were that great. Um. In late

563
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: May of this year, there was a twenty five year

564
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: old black man who sued Airbnb for racial discrimination, and

565
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: as reports we Read pointed out, his account reflects a

566
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: recent Harvard study that documented widespread discrimination against African American

567
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: guests on Airbnb. Hello, how many articles have we read

568
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: talking about black individuals, men or women or both who

569
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: show up to their Airbnb rental and like, have the

570
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: cops called on them because people think they're breaking in? Yeah,

571
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: hence the hashtag Airbnb while black. So the hashtag uber

572
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: black Oh yeah, same thing exactly, and Airbnb's response seemed

573
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: to be really strong. But to me, it comes out

574
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: like a lot of hot air. So their responses to

575
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 1: of course denounce racism. Uh. They engaged the former head

576
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: of the a C l U d C Office to

577
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: find ways that they can address challenge of racist Airbnb hosts. UM.

578
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: They suspended or banned people who violated its anti discrimination policy. Like,

579
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: for instance, trans woman Shady Potowski got a lot of

580
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: noise going on Twitter when she recounted her experience of

581
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: UM having her Airbnb reservation declined because she was like, Hey,

582
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: I'm a trans woman. Uh, the world stage is not

583
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: necessarily the safest place for me, So I always make

584
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: sure to disclose two potential Airbnb host that I'm a

585
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: trans woman, because god forbid, I show up in person

586
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: and there is some sort of awful thing that happens. Anyway,

587
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: her post on Twitter ended up getting a lot of

588
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: attention in Airbnb, and I think that's like a year

589
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: after the fact, Airbnb ended up banning that host as

590
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: part of their anti discrimination efforts, which I mean, that's great,

591
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: but it would be better if there were policies and

592
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: procedures in place to prevent that from happening from the

593
00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: get go. Um. Airbnb also actually hired former US or

594
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: any general eric holder to strengthen its anti discrimination policy. Yeah.

595
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: I mean, personally speaking, I give them props for acting

596
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: as to me quickly as they have. UM. In between

597
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 1: a big study that came out a few months back,

598
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: UM really quantifying the unconscious bias and alright racism UM

599
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: that happens through their platform. And I do think that

600
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: they're serious about it. Um. And it goes to this

601
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: issue of you know, having to take an intersectional approach

602
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: to how you are creating these apps and realizing that, yeah,

603
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: I mean you're going to have to try to use

604
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: technology to work around unconscious bias in addition to racism. Yes, yes,

605
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: and that's why you have straight up anti discrimination policies.

606
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: But in terms of unconscious bias, that's when we get

607
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: into the questions of like, okay, pro file pictures, maybe

608
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: that is not necessarily something that we need to have

609
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: because that sparks it. There have been um situations where

610
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: there's a woman of color who noticed she was getting

611
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: turned down an awful lot for airbnbs, so she switched

612
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: her profile picture to not reveal her ethnicity and low

613
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: and behold, she's getting acceptances left in her eyes. Well exactly.

614
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: And on the flip side, there's a similar profile picture

615
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: issue with hosts. So there's this research sided in Forbes

616
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: that found that black hosts are charging about twelve percent

617
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: less for equivalent rentals by non black hosts, and it's

618
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: because they might be having a harder time attracting guests

619
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: and have to keep their prices low. The whole thing

620
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: is that Airbnb tells new hosts that they quote may

621
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 1: want to charge lower than average rates to attract travelers

622
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: at first, Like when you first get on Airbnb, no

623
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: matter who you are. Start lower, attract a good audience

624
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: that can give you good reviews, and then raise your

625
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: prices from there. But the researchers were finding that black

626
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: hosts lower prices were evidence of a permanent disadvantage. Why

627
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: what is the layer there? Well, Airbnb, if you I mean,

628
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: if you've ever used it, I've used it numerous times.

629
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: When you're searching for rentals, you know you've got the

630
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: picture of the rental front and center, but also like

631
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: right there on the side is the picture of the host,

632
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: and sure you know you can have as The example

633
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: is that you can have the Eiffel Tower as your

634
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: profile picture. But the whole thing is that you're using

635
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: your face to put people at ease like, hey, I'm

636
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: a human, I'm not some predator or whatever, like you

637
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: can trust me and rent from me. Um. But the

638
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: fact is, whether it's conscious or not, a lot of

639
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: people are passing up units being rented out by black

640
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: individuals because of racial bias. Well, and also to the

641
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: Eiffel Tower example. Our social media habits, especially if you

642
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: look at Facebook and Instagram, the things that we are

643
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: drawn to the most are photos, not of objects but

644
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: of actual people, so I can see why like you're

645
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: and also too, if I were to run across an

646
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: airbnb um listing with an object rather than a person,

647
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: I know there would be a moment in my head

648
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: of like, who is this really? What are they? What

649
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,959
Speaker 1: are they trying to hide? Well? And I mean that's

650
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: a real fear for a lot of people because there

651
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: have been so many reports too of harassment and sexual

652
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: assault by women who have showed up at a rental

653
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: and the person who's there to hand in the keys

654
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: or share a room is not the person whose picture

655
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: was on the site, So like, even if your picture

656
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: is not the Eiffel Tower or like a dog, you know,

657
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: there's still so much potential to lie and take advantage, right,

658
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: And uh this has me thinking too of the difference

659
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: between Airbnb and older rental platforms like Verbo and home

660
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: away um, which my husband and I have used the

661
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: number of times, especially for things like renting things like

662
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: cabins and beach condos, which makes us sound fancy, but

663
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: we go there because we can't afford a fancy one

664
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: um and there are no on the listenings. You only

665
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 1: see a thumbnail of actual home once you are thinking

666
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: you really want to rent it, and then you go

667
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: to the rental page. You can see their profile and

668
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: there's usually a picture and the way to contact them

669
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: and all of that. But it is more focused solely

670
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: on what the place looks like rather than who you're

671
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: renting from, which is kind of interesting. And in one

672
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: of these pieces focusing on Airbnb, I think they reached

673
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: out to Verbo for comment and Verbo was like, nah,

674
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: so I don't. I don't. I'm not sure why, but yeah,

675
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: well yeah, And I mean those researchers sided by Forbes

676
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: definitely said the profile pictures should be less prominent. Maybe

677
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: don't even have one on the search page at all.

678
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: I'll move it inside, and um, ask yourself, as the

679
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: renter why it matters, especially if you're renting a home.

680
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: I can understand, like if you're sharing a space, if

681
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: you're not doing the whole home option, maybe you just

682
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: want a seller who is also a woman, for instance,

683
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: to feel safer. But I mean, I think asking yourself

684
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: about your biases is always a good exercise, but since

685
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: people you know are not always so great at doing that.

686
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: There's the guy who launched Noir B and B particularly

687
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: for people of color looking for rentals who don't want

688
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: to have to deal with all of this nonsense. And

689
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: we're seeing, you know, women who exclusively want to rent,

690
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: especially for like a shared situation where someone's just running

691
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: a room. They only want to rent to other women.

692
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 1: But they don't want to be seen as discriminatory. They're

693
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: just like, well, that's my comfort level too. Yeah, I mean,

694
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: and that's an issue of like we're starting to self

695
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: segregate in the interest of safety. I mean, yeah, that

696
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 1: twenty seven year old guys Stephen Grant was one of

697
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: the many, many African Americans who had had the cops

698
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: called on him and his girlfriend when they showed up

699
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: to check into their Airbnb, and he basically just said, yeah,

700
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: we launched noir BnB. It's called because we realized there

701
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: was a lack of concern for the safety and comfort

702
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: of black travelers and we wanted to fill that void. Um.

703
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: He said, human beings create technology, but there needs to

704
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: be more diversity when it comes to the creators of

705
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: said technology. And that is a massive point we're about

706
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: to hit too. Um. But we have to talk about obviously,

707
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: sexual harassment and sexual violence. The unfortunate thing about it

708
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: when it comes to these gig economy apps, is that

709
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: the numbers are really murky. Um. Sometimes things get reported,

710
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: sometimes they don't. Sometimes people report things straight to the

711
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: app and not the cops sometimes vice versa, and the

712
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: cops don't always necessarily right down, you know, whether it

713
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: was a sexual assault in an airbnb versus a taxi

714
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: or whether it's a sexualssault on the street, they don't

715
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: necessarily break it down that way right. Um. And in

716
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: case you are listening and want to know more about this,

717
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: will post the link, of course on this podcast post,

718
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: but you can also go to Who's driving You dot

719
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: org because there is no, you know, the other database

720
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: of these kinds of instances, and they itemize reported incidents

721
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 1: involving Uber and list specifically and break it down by crime.

722
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: And you're scrolling through and first there are deaths and

723
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: there are a number of them. There are assaults, and

724
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: then you scroll down to alleged sexual assaults and harassment,

725
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: and the list just goes on and on and on

726
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: and on. I'm just like, I mean, I was stunned.

727
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I I knew that this was an issue,

728
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: but just seeing it when you're just scrolling through it

729
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: it will hit you. And Uber for one kind of

730
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: refuses to take any responsive ability for this or refuses

731
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: to admit that the numbers might be as high as

732
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: they are, because why would you lie and go on

733
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: this website that you're talking about, Kristen, Why would you

734
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: take the time to even make that up. Um. There

735
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: was a little bit of a kerfuffle. BuzzFeed published screenshots

736
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: from a former Uber customer service rep that showed more

737
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: than six thousand tickets in the database for sexual assault

738
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: and nearly six thousand for rape, and Uber was like, no, no,

739
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: that's not that's not right. They said that only five

740
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: of those were legitimate rape tickets and fewer than a

741
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy sexual assault cases legitimate rape. Hyeah, you know,

742
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: you know, like you're in sketchy territory when that happens.

743
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: And uh, what they blamed the inflated numbers on, or

744
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: which they said were inflated, was typos. They said people

745
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: meant to type rap eight like as in the fair

746
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: instead of rape, or they were saying tacky things like

747
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: your prices raped my wallet, right, and and to that example,

748
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: that's why, no, don't don't use rape in that context,

749
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: that is not rape. Um, and just anecdotally, I don't

750
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: think that my iPhone has ever auto corrected anything to rape.

751
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 1: I'm shrugging my shoulders right now. I don't know that's

752
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: well obviously that's just my personal experience. But well sure,

753
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: but I mean, uber, the the lifeblood of all of

754
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: these apps is publicity, right, like word of mouth. The

755
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: app is cool, it's hip, it's cheap, it's got a

756
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 1: great user experience. Just inner things. It's so easy, your

757
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: credit card and vos stored in there. You just you

758
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: don't have to tip, at least like not handing over

759
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: the cash. You can tip after, right, and so like,

760
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: oh good, you're protecting me from like potentially getting mugged

761
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: by some delivery person. But ut um, yeah, you're not

762
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 1: protecting me against sexual assault. And there was this horror

763
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: story that is all over the Internet of this nineteen

764
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: year old man who was locked up and sexually assaulted

765
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: by his airbnb host in Madrid. And he didn't know

766
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: whether his phone, because he's from Massachusetts, he didn't know

767
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: whether his phone could access international emergency numbers. So he

768
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: texts his mother from like this basement in Madrid. She

769
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: contacts Airbnb, they tell her to just call Madrid police

770
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: herself rather than like sending an agent to go check

771
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: on him. Um. And when she did, when she took

772
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: the number that they gave her, that she could not

773
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: get through to Madrid authorities, and Airbnb, in like a

774
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: half hearted defense, said, oh, well, we thought the assault

775
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: had already taken place, so we didn't really know what

776
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: you wanted. And they wouldn't release the address to her.

777
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: They wouldn't give any information. And that's where we get

778
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: into this tough issue two of yes, customers privacy needs

779
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: to be protected, but also what do you do in

780
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: these kinds of situations like where is the line and

781
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: who's making these calls? And why aren't better systems set

782
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: up in place? You know, I mean there's a lot

783
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: of like hands up in the air of like nope, no,

784
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: we will take your money and we will act as

785
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: the go between to like connect users and renters. But

786
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: right these companies want as little liability as possible hands down, um.

787
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: And really, at the crux of all of this is

788
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: the issue of privilege. Because I forget who it was

789
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: who made this excellent point where oh, yes, okay, so

790
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: this is he here and kale over broadly, who says

791
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: the lifeblood of asuring economy is the idea that the

792
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: public space is a safe space wherein individuals can open

793
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: up their homes to strangers and read the financial and

794
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: cultural dividends. Okay, just take street harassment alone. We know

795
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: for a fact that they the public space is not

796
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: unequivocally a safe space. I mean, this is the assumption

797
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: held by the people who are developing these apps and

798
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:19,439
Speaker 1: these technologies that you can not only walk safely through

799
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: public spaces, but ride, sleep, work free of harassment. And

800
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: then it's okay. You just trust as long as you

801
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: know they see your profile picture and they have a

802
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: credit card information. You know, if they trash your apartment,

803
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: Airbnb will help you cover that cost. Like, don't worry

804
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: about it. Everybody can trust each other. What in the

805
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 1: world are you talking about. You're talking about public spaces

806
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: according to sis straight white men, you know, and that

807
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: and and not saying that like those guys are all terrible.

808
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: I'm married one, um. But it's it's the privilege issue

809
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: and the fact that we need to accept that. No,

810
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: this isn't some kind of uh color blind utopia, nor

811
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 1: should it be you know, yeah, I mean Kal points

812
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: out that, um, you know, for women, people of color,

813
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: for trans people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, on and on, our

814
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: homes are our retreats from these contested public spaces. It's

815
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: a retreat from getting hollered at on the street by

816
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: people who are disgusting. And in the sharing economy, you know,

817
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: someone else's home or car, even if you're paying for

818
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: it to use it, it's not necessarily a safe space.

819
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: And she interviewed Dr Fiona Vera Gray of Durham University

820
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: in the UK, who has studied a lot about sexual harassment,

821
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: and she said that basically, when it comes to public spaces,

822
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: women in particular are forced to moderate their desire for

823
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: freedom and safety. You end up restricting your own freedom

824
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: in order to feel safe. No one has to lock

825
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: you up, no one has to bar your door. You

826
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: feel that you have to you lock yourself up in

827
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: order to feel safe or to recover from having gone

828
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: out into these contested public spaces. And so Dr Vera

829
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: Gray was telling Kale about the so called just world hypothesis,

830
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: and this is like a perfect encapsulation of the privileged

831
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: conversation it's the idea that the world is essentially a

832
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 1: just place and that if we just all come together

833
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: and share, it's going to be mutually beneficial for everyone.

834
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: So she says, if you're a man who's been brought

835
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 1: up to see the world as a safe space, as

836
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: a fair space, a space that people can move and

837
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: interact in freely, then you'll have that view. And the

838
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: only thing I would change, and that quote is a

839
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 1: white man, because if we're talking about safe public spaces,

840
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: that does not apply to African American men no at all.

841
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: So it seems like the band aid that we're sort

842
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: of slaping on this issue as quickly as possible because

843
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 1: the sharing economy is growing as fast as it possibly

844
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,439
Speaker 1: can because billions of dollars. Is this issue of self

845
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: segregation like the noir BnB that we've already talked about

846
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 1: that Stefan Grant started. And then in terms of gender,

847
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: there's been so much media attention around UH services like

848
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: Chariot for Women and she Taxis, which are just two

849
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: of the women only rides share services that have been

850
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: launched directly in response to sexual assault and sexual discrimination complaints. UH.

851
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: They exist abroad as well. There's some in India. In

852
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: France you have Blah block Car, which is just acute founding,

853
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: you know service that also allows women to request female drivers.

854
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: But there's been a lot of write ups too about

855
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: very trollish men who are launching sexual discrimination complaints against

856
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: women only rideshare things, because that's I mean, and and

857
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: that's awful and also goes to the point that while

858
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: these services might be necessary, they are not a fix,

859
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, until until we're willing to get at the

860
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: root of the problem and take action on that um

861
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: and this. And the solution is not also to just

862
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: tell the gig worker to get a better job. You

863
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: hear that all the time. Oh well, you're complaining, Just

864
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: get a better jo. You hear that with everything in

865
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: the economy, Just get a better job, Just get a

866
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: better job. Like it's so about privilege, talk about privilege.

867
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: And you have to keep in mind too with things

868
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: like this, a lot of the people who are working

869
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: in this economy are working in it to supplement an

870
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: income already. So maybe they're not making enough money, maybe

871
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: they're literally just trying to provide for their children, and

872
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: they've also perhaps had to drop out of the traditional

873
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: economy because our system is so jacked when it comes

874
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: to things like childcare. So we do have thankfully advocates

875
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: who are tirelessly working on this, including the Now Employment

876
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: Law Project that really wants to restructure the ten contractor

877
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: relationship to offer workers greater protection. And they have proposed

878
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: a whole model for this. Yeah, so they say that

879
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: we should expand the statutory employee framework. This is basically

880
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: where contractors are considered actual workers for certain regulatory purposes

881
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: like tax laws. Uh. And this would provide quote unquote

882
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 1: portable benefits and policymakers would directly require companies that use

883
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: these ten ninety nine workers to abide by labor standards

884
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: like the minimum wage, to pay into Social Security and

885
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: state workers comp and unemployment insurance funds. So basically like,

886
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: not only in relation to the gig economy, but in general,

887
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: to treat workers people in this country who maybe we're

888
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: criticizing them because you're part of the system. You're you're

889
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: not you're not contributing to America. And it's like, well, um,

890
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: let's treat all of our workers then as humans who

891
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 1: deserve dignity and respect and to be able to provide

892
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: for their families and help is also help. The National

893
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 1: Employment Law Project now also wants to see an avenue

894
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: for on demand contractors to be able to organize and

895
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: collectively bargain around labor conditions. Basically, it's the same song

896
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 1: and dance we've seen forever of like, hey, you know

897
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: what helps people who are marginalized and voiceless unions. I mean,

898
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: regardless of your opinion on unions, that's generally what helps

899
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: working conditions. Yeah, labor organizing, and that's how we've gotten

900
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: all of the workers rights that people are worried. But

901
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 1: sharing economy is eroding. Yeah, And I mean you've got Seattle,

902
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 1: which is planning to give rideshare workers the legal right

903
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: to collectively bargain. And I mean that that's just one effort.

904
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are many others in many other cities

905
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 1: across the world. But yeah, I mean it's so great

906
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: to be able to press the button and have my

907
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: groceries delivered or have someone show up to take me

908
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: to the airport. But I mean there is so much

909
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: more wrapped up in that, because it's kind of like, um,

910
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: when you talk about public assistance and people are like, uh,

911
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, I hate that people are dependent on this

912
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: thing entitlement, entitlement, and it's the kind of thing of like, um,

913
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: you know, people who are working for these gig economy apps,

914
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: these sharing economy apps are trying to contribute to society.

915
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: They are trying to make a living wage and support

916
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: themselves and potentially their families. Um, But in the same

917
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: time they're like trapped in this vortex of like not

918
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: making enough money, not having protections. Because the convenience factor

919
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: applies not only to us consumers clicking you know, the

920
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: the app and instantly having whatever we need right at

921
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,280
Speaker 1: our fingertips, but also if you need some income there's

922
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: the the convenience factor of it too, where you can

923
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: you know, I think it does lower the barrier to

924
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: potentially making some money, which is very tempting. And unfortunately

925
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: there are too many instances, and I've heard this from

926
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: so many uber and lift drivers, particularly on my rides

927
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: home from the airport, because they're usually it's like the

928
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: longest time I'm in the car, and um, I always

929
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: try to talk to my driver's UM and I've heard

930
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: so many times just about what a hustle it is.

931
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 1: And for that reason, one another not to uh to

932
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: seem like I'm sponsored by Lift. But one thing I

933
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: do like about Lift is that you can tip your

934
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: drivers and if you have a good driver, tip your driver,

935
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: seriously tip your driver. Um because a good karma, just

936
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: like being a good human. And be they're not you know,

937
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: they're not making a lot of money, um so a

938
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: lot of the time. So the main takeaway of all

939
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: of this is the technology terrific, the potential incredible. But

940
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: if we want to truly make it inclusive, we have

941
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: to truly make it inclusive. You know, inclusivity is not

942
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: limited to convenience. Yeah, and I think you know, one

943
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: thing I was thinking of when we were discussing like

944
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: racist hosts on Airbnb for instance, um or other you know,

945
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: property rental places. I think there is an attitude that like, well,

946
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: I'm a human with a space to rent, so I

947
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: have the right to get on Airbnb and rent it

948
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: to whoever I choose and like to an extent. Yeah,

949
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: but there's nothing stopping I mean, Airbnb has launched all

950
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: of these anti discrimination efforts. There's nothing stopping Airbnb from

951
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 1: being like, you know what, we just really don't want

952
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: you here if you're such an exclusive renter. Oh yeah,

953
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: I mean, and it sounds like they've done that with

954
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: for instance, with the woman who turned away the trans woman. Yeah. Well,

955
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say is like, and

956
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: I think all the things are positive, but I guess

957
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is making it way more

958
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: clear upfront of like maybe we just don't want you

959
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: here if you're going to be racist, or perhaps if

960
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: you are using it just to like lure women or something. Well,

961
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: it sounds like in that situation we are really mixing

962
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: up accessibility and inclusivity. You know, just because it might

963
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 1: be really easy to access and use doesn't mean that

964
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: the barrier of entry is as low for every body.

965
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: You know, just because you can access an app doesn't

966
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: mean you really can access safely the service. So I

967
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: am so sure that there are a lot of people

968
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: listening to this who have a lot to say. Um,

969
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 1: and we want to hear about this from all ends

970
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: of the share economy, whether you are an employee, a customer,

971
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: whether you are a full fledged handy lift, uber, corporate

972
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: impoll a. Um, because this is such a major issue.

973
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: This isn't going anywhere, nor are we proposing that it should.

974
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: But UM, there are definitely ways that already in its

975
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: infancy relatively can be reformed. So mom Stuff at how

976
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is where you can send all

977
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: of your emails. You can also tweet us at mom

978
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook. And we've got a

979
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: couple of messages to share with you when we come

980
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. All right, Well, I

981
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: have a letter here from Megan in response to our

982
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: Mad Women Women in Advertising two parter. Uh, she said,

983
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: I was beyond excited to see that you did a

984
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 1: two part series on women in advertising. I majored in

985
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: advertising in college with the dream of becoming a creative director. However,

986
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 1: I quickly learned how far that career path is, especially

987
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 1: for women. I interned in the creative department of an

988
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: advertise using agency as a copywriter my junior year of college.

989
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: Even though several women worked at the agency, everyone in

990
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 1: the creative department was male, except for one of the

991
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 1: copywriters and an art director. However, both of these women

992
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: seemed to fit in better with the guys than me.

993
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: I wore dresses and makeup often because I liked to.

994
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: I was told by a male creative director that I

995
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: dressed up too much, even though I didn't look much

996
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: different from the women in other departments. My senior year,

997
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 1: I applied to be the creative director from my classes

998
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: advertising capstone project. Since I was the only applicant with

999
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: experience working in a creative department and an ad agency,

1000
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: I felt confident that I would get the position. However,

1001
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: I lost out to the only guy who applied. Later,

1002
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: this guy would say to his team of all women,

1003
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 1: women just aren't as creative and women can't be funny.

1004
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding. This was a twenty two year old,

1005
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: college educated man saying blatantly sexist remarks to his team

1006
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 1: of women, and I was the only one who ever

1007
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 1: stood up to him. Unfortunately, this was not the end

1008
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: of my experience of sexism in my advertising career. I

1009
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 1: once had an informal interview with a male creative director who,

1010
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: after ten minutes told me that he didn't really see

1011
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: me as a creative and that I should work in

1012
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: the typically female dominated account services as an introvert. I

1013
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: never once considered account services, but I guess the way

1014
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 1: I looked made this particular creative director. I think I'd

1015
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 1: be a great fit. Eventually, I gave up on trying

1016
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: to make it as a creative in an AD agency

1017
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: because I felt like I would never be the right

1018
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: personality fit and I wasn't willing to sacrifice who I

1019
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: am for my career. Today, I work as a marketing

1020
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 1: manager for an in house marketing team. I get to

1021
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: do a little bit of everything, from creative to research

1022
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: to analytics. Currently, my team is made up of women,

1023
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:34,439
Speaker 1: and I have to brag that it is the most

1024
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: creative and productive AD team I've ever worked with. Sometimes

1025
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: I do miss parts of the ad agency life, like

1026
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: free beer and late night brainstorming sessions. But what I

1027
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: like better is working somewhere that I feel appreciated and respected,

1028
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: and I don't think I would have experienced that in

1029
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: most agencies if I'd stayed on the path to become

1030
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: a creative director. Oh boy, Megan, Well, I'm glad you

1031
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 1: found somewhere that makes you happy. Thanks for writing. So

1032
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Amy with a positive

1033
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: story about being a woman in the ad industry. She writes,

1034
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: I'm a VP director at a large media agency, the

1035
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: mom of a three year old and a one year old,

1036
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: as well as having a spouse who works full time

1037
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 1: in marketing too. To say my life as tactic is

1038
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: an understatement. I spent the first eight years of my

1039
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: career in the same department run by the same woman

1040
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: whom I eventually reported to as a working mom herself.

1041
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: She made it her mission to look after, challenge and

1042
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: mentor women and moms on her team. When I announced

1043
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: that I was pregnant with my first we began informal

1044
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: working mom lessons once a month to discuss and prepare

1045
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 1: for how my life would change and how to manage

1046
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: my career and ambitions Accordingly. I was actually coached and

1047
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: told that you've proven yourself to us by her and others,

1048
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: which gave me the confidence to push for flexibility. I

1049
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: needed my team and clients know that unless something critical

1050
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: is going on, I'm unavailable from five ish to eight

1051
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: dish while I pick up feed and play with my kids.

1052
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: Send me whatever you need and you'll have a response

1053
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: by the time you're in in the morning. I feel

1054
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 1: empowered to do is thanks to this old boss slash

1055
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 1: mentor and watching other working moms and mentors around me

1056
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: leave for the train at five or go on a

1057
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: kid's field trip and still earn VP and s VP titles.

1058
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: They are countless women I know who will name this

1059
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 1: woman as a key reason they remain in the industry today.

1060
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 1: I'll also note that four out of the five years

1061
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: I've been working entirely remotely, when my husband's job required

1062
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 1: us to move to Chicago, I've been able to continue

1063
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: working for this company in other cities. Even better, I'm

1064
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: not the only person doing this, and we have a

1065
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 1: few people all over the country who, for some reason

1066
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: or another, are working from home. We've also set up

1067
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,439
Speaker 1: a working parents group note parents not moms, where moms

1068
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: and dads can identify working parent mentors, ask for advice,

1069
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: even if it's just recipes, kids will eat and generally

1070
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: support each other in demanding jobs. Advertising is still tough

1071
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: on women and moms. Just last night, I had to

1072
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: hide in my bedroom and take a six pm call

1073
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 1: with senior clients while my kids banked on the door

1074
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: saying they wanted mommy to make dinner and not daddy.

1075
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: And that sucks. And there definitely times I hate the

1076
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: inflexibility that client services lead to. But in the media

1077
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: agency world, we also have to make money by being

1078
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: perpetually understaffed, so things are not all Rosie. However, I

1079
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 1: did want to paint a picture of my extremely positive

1080
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: experience as a woman and mother in the industry, and Amy,

1081
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing that. That's so good

1082
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: to hear and also just such a perfect case study

1083
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: of women supporting other women, parents supporting other parents in

1084
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 1: the workplace and we need more of it. So if

1085
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 1: you have stories to share with us, mom stuff at

1086
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address and

1087
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well

1088
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our

1089
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: sources so you can learn more about the gig economy,

1090
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot

1091
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

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01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com