WEBVTT - Stream Wars: Bots & Beef - Lab 088 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:10.520 I'm TT and I'm Zakiah and this is Dope Labs. 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.120 Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:23.520 science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. Now, 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:25.919 there's no debate that Kendrick won the rap Beep with Drake. 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.040 I mean, hands down. TKO called the Sandman lights out. 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.440 Drake is a corpse, okay, and we can't ignore that. 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.040 It feels like a real sucker move to. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.480 Issue a lawsuit as soon as you rise up from 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:40.880 the dead. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:47.400 But maybe, just maybe those allegations deserve a closer look. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:48.639 Maybe they do. 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.000 So this week we're diving into the state of streaming. 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:54.960 So what do we know? 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.240 I feel like if you've been paying attention to anything, 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.800 or if you just remembered downloading songs that say aol 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:06.000 music at the beginning of them, you know, the streaming 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.800 services were at one point seen as the saving grace 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:10.000 of the music industry. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.840 Yeah, I saw where b York. You remember her mm hmm, 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:13.880 singer song. 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:17.200 I remember what she looked like in those outfits. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.440 Well, so she's like a Swan, she's very edgy. 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.680 Okay, Well, she just said streaming is one of the 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.240 worst things to ever happen to musicians. The tides have changed, okay, 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.000 and so now it's time for us to kind of 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:32.920 change how we're looking at things. So we're putting those 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.240 streaming services like the one you know y'all might be 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.600 using to listen to us right now, we're putting those 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.360 under the microscope. Okay, So what do we want to know? Well, 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.560 you know, I know for sure, I'm like, what's going on? 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:47.640 Are the streaming platform is good for the artists or not? 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:49.760 Drake was the king of pop and R and B 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:52.960 and whatever other you know genre he chose, you know, 0:01:53.000 --> 0:02:00.800 the genre reggae, the hispanic, oh gosh, everything, all of it, 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:03.480 and so he was dominating Spotify and Apple Music and 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:04.560 now y'all are mad at him. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:05.480 What's going on? 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:08.600 So, like, you know, my main question is is some 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.440 of this just sourenness from public humiliation by Kendrick or 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.320 is there actually some merit to his claims. Drake is 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.480 really seeming like a poor sport. But maybe he's just 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.120 saying the quiet part out loud. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:22.680 That's fair. I think that's fair. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.480 And if everyone is getting so many streams and we're 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.799 all listening to their music, why is everybody so grouchy. 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.280 Is being number two that much worse than being number one? 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.520 Or is the key to actually making it as an 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.960 artist having your own masters? Because you know, Maggie Stallion 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.320 was talking about that, yup, and some other people have 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.760 been too, so like, is that why everybody's a grumpy? 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:47.760 And what lies ahead for streaming? When we consider AI 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:52.760 and bots? I mean, ai've been taken over so many things, 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:54.520 and I mean including Drake. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.840 We heard that Ai, Drake m h ay y'all. 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.120 Taking off everything except the dishes in my sink. Hello, Okay, 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.960 nobody's doing this laundry. The laundry just pile up on 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:08.400 the bed. I'm sleeping on top of it. Okay, who's 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:09.520 gonna fold these clothes? 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:09.880 Right? 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.320 I think they're using it in the wrong areas. But 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.600 that's a lot of questions, and I'm not ashamed of 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.680 those squestions. I don't know a lot about all of 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.400 this me either, But that's fine because that's just what 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:23.280 Dope Labs is for. Let's jump into the dissection. This week, 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.000 we're talking to Professor Eric A. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:25.639 Drott. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.320 He's a professor of music at the University of Texas, 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.120 Austin and author of streaming music streaming capital. His work 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.000 dives into the political economy of music streaming and exploring 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:39.080 how digital music platforms have reshaped the way music is produced, distributed, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:44.560 and consumed. We'll start with some streaming platforms like Spotify 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.800 and Apple Music. They really have revolutionized how we listen 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.160 to music. When I look back, it seems like these 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.440 services crept up and they were the music industry's way 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.760 to recapture a lot of the market after LimeWire and Napster, 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.120 which I am guilty of and I think, you know, yes, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:05.720 somebody is my desktop was smoking with all of my loads. 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.560 So when we see how they brought the music industry back, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.640 that's great to see, but at what cost to artists. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.440 So I think it's important to recognize that there are 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.599 a lot of positives about the advent of streaming. 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:19.400 I mean, definitely on the consumer side. 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.760 And if you told me when I was fifteen twenty 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:23.640 years old that you know, in a few years time 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:25.560 you'll be able to just like click a button get 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.120 access to anything I have, you know, just been in 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:31.520 heaven at the very thought of it. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:35.479 So that's great from the perspective of artists. Creates a 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:36.480 global marketplace. 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.440 So if you blow up, you blow up at a 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.400 global level, right, I would. 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.120 Think that blowing up at a global level is a 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.120 good thing. You know, more people, more streams. When I 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.120 was checking the stats, it said that there are over 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:53.359 six hundred and forty million monthly active users on Spotify, 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.960 and that Spotify captures the majority of the market, but 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.320 Apple is only a couple percent points right behind. That's 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.520 a lot of people listening. And if I'm an artist, 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.240 I think I like those odds. I'm not really seeing 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:08.359 the problem yet. 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.120 There are several problems of from the perspective of artists. 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:11.359 You know. 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.800 One, there is this phenomenon. It's not new to screaming. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.120 It's known as winner take all markets. 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:16.400 Right. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.080 A good example of the sort of dynamic is something 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.440 like a sporting event where we're talking about fractions of 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.080 a second, and so like fractions of a second from 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.520 you being the world champion to you not even being 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.160 on the podium. And so one of the things about 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.640 winner take all markets is that you get this dynamic 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:39.080 where these tiny, tiny differences in absolute terms lead to 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.640 these massive disparities and relative terms. 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:43.280 Okay, you see in the world of. 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:48.040 Music very vividly, where you know the top artist you 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.839 know is going to make basically two times probably like 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.480 the next top artists, and then you know it will 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.480 go down kind of exponentially from there. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.800 Okay, so this is kind of like when Ricky Bobby 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.440 was intelligent to Night saying, if you're not first, your last. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.400 I didn't know that movie had economics in it. 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.800 The more you know, Yep, the Beyonces, the Taylor Swift's, 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.680 these are the global superstars who were like doing very 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.400 well by the current system. But it drops off Pray radically, 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:19.160 very quickly. 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:21.400 I feel like now Drake's complaints are making a lot 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.400 more sense. If you're not number one, your pockets are 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.719 being affected. If this is a winner takes all market. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.200 Absolutely yeah. 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.960 So I mean basically, several months after Not Like Us, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.440 which was kind of the last word in the beef, 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.440 It's very hard to see how Drake could come back 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:37.960 after that. 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.799 After that was released, he filed a couple of lawsuits. 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.719 I mean the first couple they were like pre litigation. 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.360 I'm not a lawyer, so I don't. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:49.880 Really understand some of the nuances here. They weren't really lawsuits, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.000 but they're like pre litigation, there's something like that. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:57.120 But Drake dropped those pre litigation submissions and really honed 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:02.000 in on Universal Music Group. That was strange because that's 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.680 his label. What's he saying about them? 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.159 It's basically accusing Universal of a few things, one of 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:12.760 which is that they engaged in a defamation against him. 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.640 Since you know, essentially Kendrick is. 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:20.160 Calling pedophile, right, and you're saying, that's affirmation that because 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.280 Universal agreed to release this right, because they gave the 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.520 green light for the supubilis that they are a party 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:26.400 to that defamation. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:27.400 So that's part of it. 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.920 But then another part of is that, you know, he's 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.280 saying that they did certain things that were either questionable 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:38.400 legality or just playing illegal. I'm not sure, but you know, 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:39.680 definitely dubious. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:39.960 Right. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.000 So this is a legal side from Drake to Universal 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.240 Music Group or UMG about Kendrick saying he's a pedophile 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.360 and likes young girls. And I mean, T T I 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.920 get that, because if that's not true, this SE's and 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:56.200 desist or whatever, you know, stop it, Okay. 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:56.640 Stop that. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.360 You can tell we're not lawyers, but seriously, separate from 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.920 the defamation. What's wrong with UMG? Promoting a song like 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.120 they have a vested interest in it doing well. 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.040 So one thing he says, which I think is one 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.239 of the most interesting things, He says that you know, UMG, 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:18.480 whitelisted the song, which means that basically, UMG, they have 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.320 the right to exclude other people from using it unless 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.280 you pay the money, right, And so, like, if I 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.960 were a TikToker or a YouTuber, Instagram reals person, I 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.720 want to put like this song up there, you know, 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.600 basically Universe will come in and block it, right, flag 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.840 it saying this has an unauthorized recording here, Okay, But 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:45.400 basically whitelisting is Universal saying no, We're just gonna withdraw 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:50.840 all those copyright protections temporarily because you know, basically one 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.240 of the things that the lawsuit sites is all these 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:58.480 reaction videos to the song, right, and basically those would 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:03.160 have been subject to copyright claims from Universal. But you know, 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.480 Drake is saying, or Drake's lawyers are saying, like Universal 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:11.319 wanted you know, this to generate buzz, generate like discourse, 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.440 and what better medium to do that than like reaction 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.200 videos for people, which it's like, you know, oh shit, 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:18.040 what does this guy. 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.000 Saying, so put that thing up. You know how on 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.680 YouTube sometimes it'll say this head is a copyright claim 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.880 or there's music in this that can't be used. Drake 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.199 is saying, why didn't y'all put that up for Kendrick 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:30.720 Lamar song exactly? 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.120 And then the other thing he says again like this 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.400 is actually technically illegal, you know, he basically says that 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.080 they engage in payola, which there have been controversies for 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.920 I mean decades, the concern record labels paying. Back in 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.760 the day, it was radio stations. Now it's streaming platforms, 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.840 and there's actually laws against that. So basically you started 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.000 saying that that this is what Universal did in or 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.040 to sort of give the song a boost out of 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.680 the gates right by sort of artificially inflaming number of streams, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:05.520 either by using bots or by using click farms or 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.920 paying people to stream it, you know, which some. 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.080 Of the stuff is outright illegal. All that is like 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:13.480 very questionable. 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.600 If this is illegal, why didn't it blow up even bigger? 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.440 Why aren't other artists outraged that UMG is doing this 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.920 and that it hurts their streams? Aren't the other labels 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.480 outside of UMG? Upset I would be right, or were 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:48.640 people just fixated on the actual beef. Hmm, that's a 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:49.160 good question. 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:51.400 I Mean the thing is is that, like this is 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.320 kind of an open secret that this happens, right, and 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.839 it happens with the major labels, right, I mean yes, 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.880 a lot of of you know, young up and coming 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:07.559 artists will try to use bots or paid streams in 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.080 order to give their stuff a boost and get a 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:11.920 bit of traction, bit of visibility. 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:13.480 You know. 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.080 One of the hardest things about streaming platforms is like 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.040 getting heard because there's just so much music. I mean, 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.040 this is going back to like, what are the problems 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.600 streaming platforms? That's a big one, right, because it's just 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.040 so hard to break through. But you know, even though 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.160 for the past few years, you know, all the major 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.120 labels and a bunch of other stakeholders have been you know, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:34.880 making a hue and cry about you know, the problem 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.480 streaming fraud and how there has to be a crackdowns 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.720 about this, you know, there's anecdotal evidence. I mean I've 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:46.720 heard from pretty reliable sources who have worked for major 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.480 labels that this is something that they have at least 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.719 engaged in the past. I won't be surprised if they 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.600 still engage in it in some way, shape or form. 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.440 So Drake is kind of onto something and highlighting a 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.000 problem that you're saying is kind of systemic. It's not 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.680 just a personal thing, it's it's something that has been 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.240 going on for a long time that does cause issues. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.480 So do you think that these actions, the lawsuits and 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.320 the refilings and everything like that, are ultimately going to 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.240 do more harm to his reputation than good for the 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:19.080 music industry? 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:19.400 Oh? 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:21.920 Yeah, no, definitely. I mean it looks bad. I mean, 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:27.920 I'm sorry, like it just like, I'm no expert in rappies, 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.000 so this is like to me, this looks pathetic, right, 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.080 I mean it looks sad. But you know, I you know, 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.520 I mean, Kendrick just to play the Super Bowls, right like, 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.520 I mean, like, you know, I don't know how much 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.920 more attention like can be drought to this song. But 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.160 you know, well, okay, fine, you know you're accusing UMG 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:56.080 of using these questionable methods, methods of questionable legality. 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.520 To boost Kendrick. You're also a universal heart, right. 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.480 Yeah, I mean we can put to you know, you 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.040 may have benefit from this in the past. 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:08.880 You probably have benefit from this in the. 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.360 When he was beefing with Meek Mill, probably yeah. 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.160 Or or just for any song that he's released, right, 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:14.440 you know. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.719 I mean, and there have been cases like I remember, oh, 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:19.880 I can't remember which album it was, but like they 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.880 had the entire Drake takeover of Spot five's homepage, where 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.880 like every playlist had his picture on it, and wow, 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.280 you know, like so it's like I want to listen to, 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.000 oh no, like Beethoven and so like a picture of 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:33.920 Drake's on it, you know. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.320 A minute, Yeah, what's happening? 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:38.320 Yeah? 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:39.559 Is Beethoven black? 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:42.240 That's also a debate. 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.040 We'll bring you back again for that one. 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.600 The thing to remember, right is that these platforms are 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:58.079 really dependent upon the major mabel's catalogs in many ways, right, 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.560 And it's not just like the current catalog like what's 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:05.040 popular right now, which obviously they dominate, but also the 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:06.439 massive back catalogs. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:06.640 Right. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.240 It doesn't really make sense to call like Universal Record 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.200 label because what it is is like kind of a 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.559 holding company for all these smaller. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:16.880 Labels that it's acquired over the years. 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:21.760 So jazz labels like VERV, labels like Island Records, which 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.840 really s all the like Bob Marley recordings in the 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:28.640 nineteen seventies, Interscope right, big hip hop label, and the 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.520 list goes on. You know, platforms really rely on all 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.640 that music. You know that these major labels have managed 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.640 to gobble up over the decades, and so that means 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.400 that they will basically do things in order to appease 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:43.960 the labels. 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.560 You're helping us really understand, because I think too often 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.040 people are talking about the streaming platforms as being the 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.680 big dogs here, but really the record labels with these 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.120 extensive catalogs, like, somebody's got to populate your platform, so 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.080 they have the ball and if you want them to 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.800 stay in, you want them to keep playing. And so 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.280 it does feel like this kind of tug of war 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.600 of power or the recording each other to keep music 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.920 streaming as we know it. Yeah, and that also makes 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.480 me think about how some artists own their own masters. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.760 So Steve Stout has been a vocal advocate for artists 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:22.280 owning their own masters. Artists like Jay z Rihanna, Frank 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.320 ocean U two, they own their own masters. And then 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.600 we see stories like Taylor Swift where she comes out 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.520 with Taylor's version because Scooter Braun owns her masters, and 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.440 Jojo also came up put her album from back in 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:38.080 the day so that she could own those masters. Can 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.040 you talk a little bit about that and is this 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.720 a realistic solution for most artists or does it only 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:47.240 benefit those at the top? 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.560 I think obviously it's better to own the masters than 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.240 not to own the masters. And this is obviously one 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.440 of the main ways at the record labels. Why have 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.800 they become so powerful, right, is because the additions of 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.680 getting access to a the funding that you know, record 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.440 label usually provides in the form of an advance and 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.680 be then the marketing and the promotion that you know, 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.360 especially major labels are able to provide. The sort of 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.640 cost of all that is that you usually have to 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.240 sign away your rights. This isn't just restricted to the 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.600 music industry. I don't own the rights to either of 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.400 the books I've written. Doesn't really matter since they're not 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.680 making any money anyways. That's part for the course for 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.200 academic books. But you know, it does become very consequential 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.240 when we're talking about valuable music rights. 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.640 That's a tricky trade off though, because how can you 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.640 see into the future, Like I got my masters, but 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.640 maybe I needed that marketing and promotion. 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.400 The thing is, it's in a lot of cases, for 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.520 the overwhelming majority of artists, you may own your rights, 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.080 but they may not be worth very much because you 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.560 didn't break through, right, And this gets back to that 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.080 question the winner take all kind of nature of music 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:57.080 economies in general. 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.600 Okay, I want to rewind is something you mentioned earlier 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:18.040 because you briefly mentioned this FBI case where this guy 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:21.520 he uses AI to make music. Then he gets all 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.520 these bots to stream this music that he's making with AI, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.960 and he makes well, he should have made like millions 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:38.080 of dollars. Yes, yes, and so considering this case, but 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.280 also considering this technology in a winner takes all market 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.119 I feel like he carved out a pretty good spot 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.280 for himself. I mean, aside from jail that might need ahead, 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.240 not a good spot. How do you see AI and 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:56.119 technology kind of shaping the music industry even further? You know, 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.919 especially as we think about these metrics, and one of 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.680 the known or unknown knowns is that like all these 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.560 streaming numbers, this stuff is not as reliable as it seems. 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.679 So people are bragging about being number one, but that 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.280 might not even be real platform to platform. 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.680 Yeah, and we don't even get much visibility. 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.359 Yeah, So what do you think this means? What do 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.040 you think is next? What do you think we're gonna see. 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:18.199 More of this? 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:20.520 I think one of the things that at least right 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.080 now is a comfort probably for a lot of artists 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.960 is that even the most sophisticated AI generators and music 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:32.199 that produce is still pretty right, and so you know, 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:34.600 I don't think there's much competition, and like people listen 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.480 to music for all kinds of reasons. Just as important, 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.000 i'd say in a lot of cases is like a 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.359 sense of connection with the artists, right, So. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.800 You don't have that with like AI generating music. Right. 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.240 So I think that the idea that this is going 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.040 to like displace artists is you know premature. Let's say, 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:53.840 I mean, who knows what's going to happen ten twenty 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:55.560 years from now, but I think right now, I think 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:57.320 I think one thing also to bear in minds, like 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.719 when we talk about AI, we can be referencing all 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:01.600 kinds some different things. I think a lot of times 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.960 people think about you know, AI generate songs, it could 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.960 also mean things like the sort of vocal clones. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:10.320 Right, So there's the Fake. 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.160 Drake song that came out almost two years ago now 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.879 Hard on my Sleeve, which was kind of the big 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.440 wake up call for the industry that this technology had 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.960 reached a certain point where you could have somebody basically, 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:28.719 you know, create a track and use one of these 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.240 vocal masks in order to like emulate the sound and 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.640 style of like a major artist. You know, I think 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.440 it's telling there that we haven't had any other kind 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.919 of big breakout moments since then, right, And it's not 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.040 like the technology's bad, it's it's like it's kind of gimmicky. 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:46.520 Yeah. 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.040 I Saebob sing Luther Vandra style, and I was like, 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.879 I'm not convinced that SpongeBob Patrick. 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.560 Yes, Patrick, I think there are two main concerned So 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.320 that one is that already when you look at the 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.959 catalogs or the databases of these major platforms, you know, 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:09.320 the number of tracks. 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:13.760 That they have is absolutely eye watering, right, Like, I 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.000 mean Spotify has over one hundred million tracks. And you know, 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.280 we were talking before about how hard it is to 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.760 get heard, right, and if people are uploading forty thousand 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.840 tracks a day, right, it just makes it all the 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:32.560 more difficult to break through. And you know, maybe some 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.880 portion of those are AI generated block but it doesn't matter. 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.480 It's just adding to the noise that you have to 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.880 get past. So that's one problem. I think the other 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:47.080 problem is, like it's a little more indirect. So about 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.960 two years ago, the head of UMG Loosing Range, comes 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.440 out with like a letter that he publishes just this 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.160 sort of state of the union for the music industry, 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.840 and he said streaming has been great, helping the record 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.159 industry get back on his feet, but the revenue sharing 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.199 model is broken. And he cited the fact that you know, 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:13.919 there's just so much garbage now populating streaming platforms. You know, 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.800