1 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations about 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: the business, media and entertainment. I'm senior business writer, TV 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: and video games. Jennifer Moss Belan Lee, a former Xbox designer, 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: and Matthew Inman, the award winning cartoonants behind the Oatmeal, 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: launched the first Exploding Kittens card game in twenty fifteen 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: via Kickstarter campaign and unexpectedly raised eight point seven million 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: dollars for the initial game in the first thirty days 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: of the campaign. Since then, they released nearly thirty tabletop 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: games under the Exploding Kitten's Company brand and a handful 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: of digital games, and it's sold more than thirty six 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: million games globally. On Friday, Netflix will launch its Exploding 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: Kittens TV series adaptation, which will coincide with updates to 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: its Exploding Kitten's mobile game for the streamer, incorporating playable 14 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: characters from the new show into the service. Here to 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: talk about the inner workings at its own Kittens the company, 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: and how their brand adapted its best selling tabletop game. 17 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: Entering Netflix series and video game are founders ill Unle 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: and matthew an Thank you both for joining me for 19 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: the strictly business podcast. I'm really excited to speak to you, 20 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: and I just kind of want to start off with 21 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: each of you could lay out your current holes and 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: then go a little bit into your background prior. 23 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: Matt, you want to start sure, So at Exploding Kittens, 24 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: I think my social title the chief creative officer the cartoonists. 25 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: I'm an artist. I worked on the original game with 26 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: the lawn. I should have had more coffee because I 27 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: can't think of what else. Yeah. Yeah, And then on 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: the Netflix series, I'm the showrunner. I wrote a bunch 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: of episodes and did a little bit of everything there. 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 3: My name is Alan. I founded the company with Matt 31 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 3: about ten years ago. My current role is CEO, and 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: I'm also one of the producers on the show. 33 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: Did I forget to mention I write and draw the oatmeal? 34 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: I did that little thing? Did I write draw the oatmeals? Ball? 35 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: Okay, Now, for any of our listeners who might not 36 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: be familiar, can you explain what Exploding Kittens is? 37 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's see. Okay, So Exploding Kittens, I mean, first 38 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 3: and foremost, it's a card game, but it's also the 39 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: name of our company and also now the name of 40 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: a Netflix show. It started about ten years ago. Matt 41 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: and I were kind of looking for a new exciting 42 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 3: project to get involved in. I had this very rough 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: idea for a card game that at the time was 44 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: called Bomb Squad, and it was all It was like 45 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 3: Russian Roulette with a deck of cards. Matt decided very 46 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: wisely that the name Bob and Squad is no fun 47 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 3: at all. And the way he phrased it was, if 48 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 3: all you're scared of in this game are these explosive bombs, 49 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: it's just so on the nose, it's so obvious. Who cares? 50 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: What if instead the thing you were most afraid of 51 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 3: was cute, adorable, fuzzy little kittens And we call the 52 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: game Exploding Kittens instead, And that is literally how Exploding 53 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 3: Kittens was born. We put it up on Kickstarter expecting 54 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 3: to raise hopefully about ten thousand bucks. Instead we raised 55 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: almost nine million and thirty days started a company and 56 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 3: now are one of the largest independent game studios in 57 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: the world. 58 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: That anything you want to add to that story, as 59 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: the saying that Bomb Squad was. 60 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 2: A bad name, Yeah, I mean, I guess, I see, yeah, 61 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: I get Alan and I were we kind of just 62 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: met at that point too, we were on vacation with 63 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: a mutual friend of ours and Alan had this poker 64 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: deck that has just sharpie marks on it, and we 65 00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: played that game like the entire week while we are 66 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: on vacation. And I kind of had wanted to make 67 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: a game at that point, but I wasn't a game 68 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: designer and I didn't really have one. And for our 69 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: first game, it's still is our I think it's one 70 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: of the best things we've ever done in terms of gameplay, Like, 71 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: it's so fun, it's such a satisfying and unique game mechanic, 72 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: this sort of idea that you play until it's last 73 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: person standing. And yeah, and I was able to kind 74 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: of translate comics into cards back then, and that that 75 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 2: really helped us in the beginning too. 76 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 3: And Matt literally wrote a one panel comic for every 77 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 3: card in the game. I showed up with a poker deck. 78 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 3: Here's the King, the Queen, the aces et, cetera. And 79 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 3: Matt said, okay, so fifty two cards. I will draw 80 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 3: fifty two to one panel hilarious comics and that will. 81 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: Be the game. 82 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: And yeah, that whole task, what was that? Matt? Ten days, 83 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 3: two weeks somewhere in that timeframe. 84 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: We did it fast, and our company came together in 85 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: like six weeks from hey, this is Bomb Squad the 86 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: poker game to ek explaining kittens on the Internet. You know, 87 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 2: in a very short period of time. 88 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was Yeah, that was that was fun. That 89 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 3: was literally us in a garage in the back of 90 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 3: my house. And now there's about one hundred people working 91 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: at the company and we have a big studio and 92 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 3: the biggest problem is remembering everybody's name. 93 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: And now you've released nearly thirty games, a handful of 94 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: digital games, including the Netflix Exploding mobile game. 95 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct. Yeah, So I'd love. 96 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: To know what the process becomes at that point, from 97 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: making a card game to making a digital game to 98 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: now making a show. And at what point Netflix got involved, 99 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: if they approached you, if you had talks with them, 100 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: what the kind of flow and order of events if 101 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: you remember. 102 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can, I'll jump to the Netflix bit because 103 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: that's where I'm the most relevant. So in twenty nineteen, 104 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: we received an investment from Peter Turnham and to kind 105 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: of expand our our IP and he connected us with 106 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 2: Greg Daniels and might Judge and you know, up until 107 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: that point, it really wasn't terribly interested in making Exploding 108 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: Kitts into a TV series. It just wasn't something that 109 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: struck me as television material. I mean, it's a card game, 110 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 2: where as we just said, each card is its own 111 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: non secuity. It's they're all just independent jokes, don't really 112 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: a story. It'sn't really through line. It would be like 113 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: if I told you we're going to make connect for 114 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: into a movie, you'd be like, God, stop, you know, please, 115 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: don't you know? And what ended up happening was started 116 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: to think kind of in earnest about, regardless of the 117 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: card game, what's the show that I would want to watch? 118 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: And that is where I kind of flipped through an 119 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 2: old notebook and started schooling away. And I'd always kind 120 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: of had this idea in the back of my mind 121 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: of some sort of cat X related show and hear 122 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: me out. So when I had a girlfriend in my 123 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: twenties where she had a cat who kind of simultaneously 124 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: behaved like God in the house and also like Satan. 125 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: I think this is very reliable for most pet owners. 126 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: Your cat things, you own the house, but they also 127 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: seem to rule the underworld as well, so again, when 128 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: I thought, how can I make Exploding Kittens into a 129 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: TV series that I want to watch without ever having 130 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: played the game, that's where this idea of God and 131 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: the Devil being trapped in cat bodies on Earth came from. 132 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: So what I did was most television pitches, you know, 133 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: you have your little index cards and you nervously stand 134 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: in a room and try to recite your show in 135 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: front of a bunch of people. I don't really drive 136 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: that way, and I can draw, So I thought I 137 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: would draw my pitch in the form of a comic 138 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: that you could read like it's a It's about a 139 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: four minute read, like a tiny graphic novel, so you 140 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: could you read my show. We pitched it to seven 141 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: studios and six of them made offers on it right away, 142 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: and that's when kind of realized, I think I doesinthe 143 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: really really good here. That's how we connected eventually with Netflix. 144 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: And at the time Netflix was this was like twenty nineteen, 145 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: twenty twenty. Netflix was investing heavily in animation, I think, 146 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: and I think they doubled down on it because of 147 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: the pandemic, because you couldn't shoot anything live action, and 148 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: that's that's where it's the when you get touts home. 149 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: Just to add the even before that, like all we 150 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: ever really aspired to do, at least at first, was 151 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: let's make a bunch of card games. Like I really 152 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 3: like designing games, Matt really likes drawing games, come together 153 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 3: and we were able to create these really fun, exciting 154 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: things under the premise that, like, none of these games 155 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: should be entertaining. All every game we make should make 156 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 3: the people you're playing with entertaining instead. And armed with that, 157 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: we're able to create like some of the some of 158 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 3: the best selling games ever. It's really it's been a 159 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 3: it's been a really fun experience. And then once once 160 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 3: the Netflix show really solidified, like once it was like, oh, 161 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 3: we're doing this, Matt started to lead his team, the 162 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 3: show team, as far as like, all right, well, here's 163 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 3: what these characters sound like, here's how they behave, here's 164 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 3: how they move, here's here's what the world actually looks 165 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: like instead of just a bunch of static images. And 166 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 3: armed with that, we were able to start saying, okay, well, 167 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: now this is a world instead of just a bunch 168 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: of comics, this is an actual world. So that means 169 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 3: we can start making more games, more moving games. Right, 170 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 3: so like digital games, mobile games, VR games, we can 171 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: start exploring where else these characters might live and how 172 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 3: our audience might be able to experience them. And so 173 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 3: it was like this neat little one two punch, like, 174 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 3: let's start by building a really strong audience, building simple, fast, 175 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: easy fun party games. Expand that into the world of TV, 176 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 3: and then now we can expand that whole ip outwards 177 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 3: because we know what it looks and sounds like. 178 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: As you became more and more familiar with the tabletop 179 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: game and that's where you started with and that's where 180 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: you grew, and that's where the success was. Going into 181 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: TV and going into gaming digital. What did you all 182 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: have to do to educate yourselves on understanding those worlds, 183 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: the business model of those things, and expanding the brand 184 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: into those sections where you had been strictly in tabletop 185 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: gaming before. 186 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 2: Well, I actually on once you go first you worked 187 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: at the Xbox, you can talk about all kinds off there. 188 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 3: I think we knew, like all of us from hearing 189 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: all the stories, that there's not a huge amount of 190 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: money in season one. Season one is like establishing yourself. 191 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 3: It's building the team figuring out what this thing looks like, 192 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: trying your best to build an audience, investing heavily in marketing, 193 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: making sure you get the word out. It's really once 194 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 3: that thing takes off, which we really hope this does 195 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: because we've worked so hard at it. It's once that 196 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 3: takes off that you have more leverage, that you get 197 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: to start making more demands. Essentially. However, getting to that point, 198 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 3: there were a few things that were really important to us. 199 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 3: A typical TV deal, the network has a lot of 200 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 3: rules about merchandising, about what the show is called, about 201 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 3: how you talk about the show, and we were very 202 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 3: fortunate that we could walk into those deals saying, look, 203 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 3: this has to be called Exploding Kittens, has to has 204 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 3: to has to, which is very important to us. That's 205 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: the brand recognition. They totally agreed. They were like, yes, 206 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 3: has to, that's where the audience is going to come from. 207 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: You've got one of the best selling games in the world, 208 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 3: So cool, we're all in agreement there. It's good for them, 209 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,359 Speaker 3: it's good for us. That was a really nice negotiation 210 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 3: point that was not contentious at all. But then the 211 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 3: second one was merchandising, which is like, look, We're going 212 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: to be the best partners ever and anything that comes 213 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 3: out of the show, out of these characters, we're all 214 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: going to participate in that. But it is very important 215 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: to us that you acknowledge we are a pre existing 216 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 3: company that only does merchandising. All we do is put 217 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: out card games out into the world, So we have 218 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 3: to be able to keep those things in their own 219 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 3: little box in order that we can keep running the company, 220 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 3: keep coming up with new ideas, and keep using those 221 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 3: ideas to generate new IP and new shows for Netflix. 222 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 3: So everyone was very good about that. But it was 223 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: non traditional, right, Like the standard version is all merchandising 224 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 3: that comes out of a show gets split up between 225 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 3: all the partners, and we had to cut out or 226 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 3: carve out pre existing ips and new games that we 227 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 3: create that weren't associated with the show. That was a 228 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 3: little bit of learning on both sides, right. Nobody was 229 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: used to that, but that's what that's what we clung 230 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 3: onto because it was so important and we knew that 231 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 3: as long as we can hold on to that, we 232 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: can then learn the rest of the process. Working closely 233 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: with the networks, working closely with Netflix to get the 234 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: best deal for everybody. 235 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: We'll be back to work from the Exploding Kittens seen 236 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: actor this break. 237 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, so kind of going through card games to digital 238 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: I know Alons kind of got a rich background, and 239 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: you know, he worked was a chief design officer at 240 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: the Xbox, so that there was a lot of stuff 241 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: that fit there for him. For me going from card 242 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: game to television, I had I've been working in comics forever, 243 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 2: which is very helpful because when you draw storyboards, which 244 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: become animatics, it's become cartoons animatics fen who doesn't know 245 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: they're They're kind of like a really crappy cartoon. They're 246 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: black and white. Usually the actors aren't even there yet, 247 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: so it's all this rough. I've done a ton of 248 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 2: storyboarding just in my career as a cartoonist, so I 249 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: had some skills there. And then I'd worked in elimination 250 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 2: for a couple of years on their movies, did some 251 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: punch up on their movies, so I had some experience there. 252 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 2: That being said, there was a lot of new disciplines 253 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 2: to learn. You know, writing a still web comic on 254 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 2: the Internet is very different from dealing with actors, writers, 255 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 2: sound design, fully score. There's a whole kind of arsenal thing. 256 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: So past four and a half years has been it's 257 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 2: like the greatest film class they've ever gone to, you know, 258 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: in a way, because I got to actively learn while 259 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: making show. The other thing that was probably where Robber 260 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: Mett road in terms of difficulty was when you make 261 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: a web comic, people hear when they read your comic, 262 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: they hear what ever voice they want to hear in 263 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: their head, and usually it's a very funny voice. It's 264 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: well written television or animation. They hear whatever voice the 265 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: actor is saying and or the way the character is moving, 266 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: and it can all break a joke or make a joke. 267 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: So that was where I had to be really diligent 268 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: and good about make sure the comedy comes through because 269 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 2: there's a ton of funny jokes that are written in script, 270 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: and then when they're own, you know, they're performed, they 271 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: can kind of change or breakdown that comes with you. 272 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: That's the same with the art, you know, creating really 273 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: rich style guides that I drop people a certain way. 274 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: You know, I had kind of a signature, kind of 275 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: inbred frog eyed look to everything that I drop, and 276 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: I needed to make sure that in bred frog eyed 277 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: was well ingrained into one in Netflix. It was you know, 278 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: it's on my office door talking. 279 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: About the voices that brings me a question about passing 280 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: and how involved you all were in that process. If 281 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: Netflix had ideas right off the top, if you all 282 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: had ideas and kind of what it was based on, 283 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: and also fans of exploding kittens versus people are like, 284 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: I have no idea what this is. I've never heard 285 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: of this before, and kind of that barrier to entry 286 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: maybe with certain talent. 287 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: We you know, initially Netflix and me were aligned that 288 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: we wanted to go after famous people, you know, celebrities, 289 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: and we did. We went after famous people and celebrities 290 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: and what do you get any and they're busy, you know, 291 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 2: like I mean that in a good way because it's 292 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: like a cat themed you know, it'd be like we're 293 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: making a movie out of them. I don't know, pick 294 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: the worst they imaginable. Let me paraphrase, paraphrase, I'm I'm 295 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: blowing this right now. We went out to the first 296 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: person who went out to to Boyce Godcat was Peter 297 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: d English and which had been amazing. I love him 298 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: and he was super interested, but he was shooting a movie. 299 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: And then the next person we went after was calling 300 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: Farrell again amazing, great shooting a movie. And then they 301 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: both got a bunch of awards. I think called Ferrol 302 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: literally maybe got nominated for an Oscar maybe one I 303 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 2: don't remember, and I was like, yeah, it's probably good. 304 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: You turned down the whole cat card game idea. You 305 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: were clearly busy something that matters. But sort of through 306 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: that process, what we kind of realized was we wanted 307 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: people who were funny. We don't care who they are 308 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: in terms of celebrity. So that's why we ended up 309 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: with like, for example, a good example of this, Mark 310 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: brooksh who plays the dad on the show. He plays Marv. 311 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: He's the voice. He might not know his name, but 312 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: if you saw him, you know who he is. He 313 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: was in the office. He also played the energy vampire 314 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: in What We Do in the Shadows, And that's the 315 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: kind of a lack of better word, black of the 316 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: energy we wanted from our characters was less about can 317 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 2: we shove Wesley Snipes in here. I don't know why 318 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: I picked him. I like him, but whatever, that's really 319 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: celebrity I can think of right now, Wesley Snipe versus 320 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: someone that maybe isn't quite as well known, but their 321 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: ability to perform a joke into a microphone was so good. 322 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: Tom Ellis is that way to shoo him. They were 323 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 2: all like funny, funny people. THAT'SI Sidar is another good example. 324 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 3: So tom Ellis, though, Matt, I remember going through that 325 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 3: casting process and you like sending me all of these 326 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 3: recordings and these auditions, and for Godcat, you weren't even 327 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 3: there was not even a thought that went into that. 328 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 3: It was just like you heard that voice, and you're like, yeah, 329 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 3: this is Godcat, like this is one hundred percent sold. 330 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was offer only, so we never heard 331 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 2: him before. The table reads. So the table reads, I'm like, 332 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 2: there's no way this guy's not gonna not gonna like 333 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 2: fell it. And he didn't. I mean, if I said 334 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 2: that the right way, he was amazing. Like he We 335 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 2: could kind of get a sense of him too, because 336 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: tom Elise is Welsh, his accent is Welsh. He's funny 337 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 2: based on his previous shows Miranda Loose First and other things, 338 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: but he also has this simultaneous quality of being old 339 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 2: world founding but also being fresh and relevant. Another good 340 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: comparison to him might be someone like Matt Gardy also 341 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: on what we do in the Shadows, where he's got 342 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 2: this old world sound. But he also can like yell 343 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: at his phone for not charging fast enough, like I 344 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: can straddle those two. So Tom allis ended up being 345 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: absolutely perfect god Cat. He's also a very nice man 346 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: in person. 347 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: I originally thought it was a nice nod to the 348 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: inverse of him being Lucifer, that he'd be Godcat by them. 349 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a big Lucifer fan, so that was. 350 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: I think he's already getting hit with every single comment 351 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: thread on the internet about the show is like he 352 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: played the Devil, now it plays God That's like that dominates, 353 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: and I'm like, great, I like it. I think that 354 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: probably is helping our marketing a little bit because that's 355 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: such a funny topic to you know. The other thing 356 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: worth noting about Tom he has two cats at home 357 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,719 Speaker 2: and their names are Kane and Abel, so it all 358 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: kind of fits into the theme of Godcat and Devil Cat. 359 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: Talking about exploding kittens, the brand and exploding Kitten is 360 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: the show and the digital game and remaining separate as 361 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: a company right now, how are you functioning when you 362 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: have this huge show coming out that is made by 363 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: the brand, but you're also still operating as a company 364 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: that does other things and is a merchandising company, a 365 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: game company, as you've said, So we're you're all's focuses 366 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: right now. How much are you split between different projects? 367 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: What does that look like internally? 368 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, we should We should start by saying, every lawyer, 369 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 3: every accountant, every Hollywood agent for the last five years 370 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 3: has been begging us to change the name of the company, 371 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: so that is not the same name as everything else, 372 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 3: because you say exploiting kittens. Are you talking about the 373 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 3: show or the company, or the or the game or 374 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 3: one of the expansions. It's it drives everybody insane. Matt 375 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: and I refuse to change it because that's how it 376 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 3: was born, and we think it's very We. 377 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: Just like it. 378 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 3: So, so, how is this whole thing functioning? It's it's 379 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 3: a it's I've I've done five startups in my life. 380 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: This is now by far the largest one, which makes 381 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 3: it really really hard to manage all of those things 382 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 3: because we have separate teams working on individual projects. Right 383 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 3: we have our largest team works on sorry, our largest team. Actually, 384 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 3: when the Netflix show was in full production, was nearly 385 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 3: one hundred people, so that was the actual largest team. 386 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 3: Second largest is game production, and then third is digital, 387 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 3: where we have a lot of external partners. The company 388 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: itself in order to function just has a lot of managers. 389 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 3: Like we really we started out in my garage, just 390 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 3: very few of us, and the whole idea was, let's 391 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 3: all be creative all day, every day, and we'll make 392 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: a game, and it's going to be somebody else's problem 393 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: to figure out how that thing is produced, how it's printed, 394 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: how it's shipped, how it gets on boats, how it 395 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 3: gets into stores. We don't care about any of that. 396 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 3: All we care about is gonna make fun stuff that 397 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 3: we like playing. And in the process of doing that, 398 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: we learned that we want to get good at everything. 399 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 3: We want to learn how to print, we want to 400 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 3: learn how to distribute, we want to learn how to 401 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 3: do sales, we want to learn how to do marketing, 402 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: like just all the stuff. And so now all of 403 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 3: that stuff is internal. We have all of these different 404 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 3: teams because we like all of that in one place, 405 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: but that means our team is very management heavy, like 406 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 3: we have someone in charge of every single one of 407 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 3: those things. And then we got another person in charge 408 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: of all of those managers, and then they all report 409 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 3: up to someone at the sea level, and it looks 410 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 3: a lot like a corporation at this point, much to 411 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 3: our dismay, but we just couldn't figure out any other 412 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: way to do all the things we want to do, 413 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 3: get good at all the things, have control of all 414 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 3: those things without having a whole lot of managers and 415 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 3: unfortunately a whole lot of meetings. Matt, have I accurately 416 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 3: depicted the misery that is our calendars these days? 417 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel unwell, so I would say, yeah, 418 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: now you're you're at you And the question is kind 419 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: of like, what how do we kind of split up, 420 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: you know, making the show versus making a game. It's 421 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 2: that kind of idea. Yeah, I mean the show was 422 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 2: pretty siloed because like Netflix, the way they make sure 423 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 2: that they you know, they get a show and then 424 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 2: they I don't like one hundred people, and then when 425 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: the show's over, they kind of trail off its contractors. 426 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: So for me, I've always burned the vin nine oil, 427 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: so I was kind of putting the oatmeal cartooning aside 428 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: for the black couple of years. Just I don't have time, 429 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 2: and working most of the time as the showrunner and 430 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 2: working on the series and then kind of working at 431 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: DK when I have time. It's it's actually kind of 432 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 2: a fun balance because when I was doing the Oatmeal 433 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: full time the comic, I could go from creative drawing, 434 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 2: I'm the boss, I'm the creator. There's no meetings a 435 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: crap like that. And then when I when I had 436 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: to go to K and it was you know, are 437 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: all hands hr okr blah blah blah. You know I 438 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: could get into that world as well. Yeah, so long 439 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 2: story short, Uh, I just work a lot. Know, it's 440 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: not ever gonn answer, That's all I got. I will 441 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: also say I can draw really cast I know that 442 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: sounds like I'm bragging. I draw poorly quickly, and so 443 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: when I'm on the show or if I'm working on 444 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: card games, whatever it is, sometimes I'm at my speed, 445 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: my garb my speed of producing beautiful, palatable garbage is 446 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: very helpful. Kind of like when I talk palatable garbage, 447 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,239 Speaker 2: you know that's my dad I used to call me. 448 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 2: He didn't call me that. 449 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: We're garbage. Translated from the show for Digital What were 450 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: the aspects I know Elan with the Xbox background, but 451 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: the aspects for the digital game, and then also making 452 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: sure that remains separate from the show, because I know 453 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: that characters from the show will be incorporated into the 454 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: digital game, but the game itself still stands independent from 455 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: Netflix show. I know. 456 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 3: It's a lot, right. Just imagine how much easier this 457 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 3: would be if our company had a different name. I know, 458 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 3: all right, So when we work on the digital stuff, 459 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: like look, first and foremost, we do physical games, right, 460 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: ink on cardboard, put it in a box, go have 461 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 3: a great time. And we actually resisted doing digital stuff 462 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 3: for a while because you know, I have a very 463 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: rich history in screens, with my history with the Xbox, 464 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 3: and this was kind of a departure from that. This 465 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 3: was kind of fun to say, like let's just make games, Like, 466 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: let's just make physical game when I think back to 467 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 3: my childhood playing games with my brothers and sisters, like 468 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 3: we're sitting around a table, we're throwing food, we're hiding 469 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 3: cards under the table, like all that fun stuff that 470 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: just doesn't happen with a screen and doesn't happen remotely. 471 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: So when it came time to start developing digital properties, 472 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 3: we had to think through this process of like, we 473 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: can't just do this for digital sake. There has to 474 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 3: be a reason. There has to be something about the 475 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 3: digital experience that's better than the physical experience, otherwise we 476 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 3: might as well not do it. And we started attacking 477 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 3: that on two fronts. Number one is digital had to 478 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 3: be more accessible in order to play, especially like during 479 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: the pandemic, in order to play this game when you 480 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 3: can't be in the same room as your friends, Digital 481 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: solves that problem. So we have to make sure there's 482 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: remote play, that there's lobbies that people can join and 483 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 3: they can make new friends. And we hit that hard. 484 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: We really really important to us to say one of 485 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 3: the reasons you're going to do this is because you 486 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 3: can't be in the same room as other people. And 487 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: then the second one was, let's use this as an 488 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 3: opportunity to create cards that literally cannot exist in the 489 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 3: real world. And my favorite example of that is in 490 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 3: the physical game, there's a card called shuffle really really simple. 491 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 3: You've got this deck of cards. One of them is bad, 492 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 3: the exploding kitten. You don't want to draw the exploding kitten. 493 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 3: And so if you know via playing a bunch of 494 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 3: other cards, that let you peak before you draw, you 495 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 3: know the top ones in Exploding Kitten. 496 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: Cool. 497 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 3: So you play a shuffle card, you shuffle up the deck, 498 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 3: you hope you've moved the kitten somewhere where it's not 499 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 3: going to hurt you, and then you draw the card 500 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: to end your turn. Really straightforward, everybody understands what shuffle does. 501 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 3: In the digital version, not only can we put in 502 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: the regular shuffle card, but we can put in something 503 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 3: that can't exist in the real world, and that's a 504 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 3: card called fake shuffle. And what fake shuffle does is 505 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: when you play it, it looks to all the other 506 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 3: players like you just played a shuffle card, but really 507 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 3: what you've done is shuffled for you and nobody else. 508 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 3: Meaning when you draw a card, it will give you 509 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: a random card. But after that event, the rest of 510 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 3: the deck magically flips back into the state it was 511 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 3: before the shuffle happened. And so now for the next player, 512 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: these pining kitten is still right on top because nothing 513 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 3: was actually shuffled. That's not possible to do in the 514 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 3: real world. It would require blindfolds and leaving the room. 515 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, what a nightmare. But in digital it's 516 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 3: very easy, and so we've got a series of cards 517 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 3: like that, which really were the guiding light for us 518 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: in creating the digital experience to say, like, let's make 519 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 3: sure that this experience is not just mimic the physical one, 520 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 3: but enhances it in a way that would not otherwise 521 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 3: be possible. 522 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: Speaking about the digital game and the mechanics of that. 523 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: Netflix is very new to games still, they've been ramping 524 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: up and this was one of the ones that was 525 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: announced pretty early on and announced in connection with the 526 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: TV show. So I need to know what your experience 527 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: has been working with them, just from a company standpoint 528 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: on the gaming side versus the TV side, because they 529 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: are so new at the gaming stuff and they're still 530 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: growing that division. 531 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: Well, I can say really quick the we have there's 532 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: two versions of Exploding at One is the one we 533 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 2: made years ago, and then there's the new Netflix one. 534 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 2: The one we made years ago was great, but there's 535 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: a lot of things that we didn't do just because 536 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 2: technically we couldn't or we didn't know how. Some of 537 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 2: the car mechanics you play they're familiar with when you 538 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: play physically in our game. We have other new ones, 539 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: and there's there's some lot of charm there, but Netflix 540 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: is the most faithful. Like if you play the physical 541 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: card game and you play the Netflix one, most were 542 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: very very close. So in that regard, it was easy 543 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 2: because they kind of took the physical game and just 544 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: recreated it as digital and it was easy and I 545 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: really like, this is the long way of saying, I 546 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: really liked the Netflix version, and working with them on 547 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 2: that app was pretty seamless. The our teams that Netflix 548 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 2: are so good. I mean they can clone things that 549 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: I make. They can, you know. The other thing was 550 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 2: helpful is the show is so kind of put this. 551 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 2: It's like so well structured and crafted versus the way 552 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: I do things. That translating that art over was as 553 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 2: an example when you I didn't know this, but when 554 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: you make an animated series, like if you're maybe making 555 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: The Simpsons back in whatever that was nineteen ninety something, 556 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: you do blueprint like a perhaps like a top down 557 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: bird's eye blue viewprint of the home. So like the 558 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: Simpsons probably had a blueprint of their home where the 559 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: doors swing open and on. We did that for our show. 560 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: Actually got to look at like architectural plants for where 561 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: the family lives, so that's like the level of fidelity 562 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: to some of these documents with regards to creating it. 563 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: When Netflix made an app out of the show and 564 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: out of the UK, it was the art was it 565 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: was easy. 566 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,479 Speaker 3: Also, our interests were aligned, Like Netflix is releasing that 567 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 3: game for free, which means their motivation is build the 568 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 3: best experience you can, which amazingly is exactly our motivation. Right, 569 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 3: So when we first start on that thing, and like 570 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 3: you say, like it was in their initial launch portfolio, 571 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 3: right before they really knew very much, before they had 572 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: launched any other games. And as long as your interests 573 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 3: are aligned, as long as we get to sit down 574 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 3: with them and say, Okay, we're gonna learn a lot, 575 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 3: we're gonna build all kinds of cool stuff, but we 576 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 3: all want to build the best possible experience for people. 577 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 3: You want to, we want to. You can figure everything 578 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 3: else out because you're all working towards the same finish line. 579 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 3: So that worked really well for us. 580 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: Now I just want to ask about, you know, the 581 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: tabletop industry. Hollywood is obviously not that connected to it, 582 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: but so much is being adapted from tabletop games at 583 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: this point that people are very interested in it. Looking 584 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: at it, and it's kind of a return to that 585 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: format because we're drawing from it in more modern media. 586 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: So I want to know how much you guys can 587 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: like kind of break down working in that industry and 588 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: crossing over into Hollywood and seeing the interest in things 589 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: pick up again in terms of the transmedia component of 590 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: that mean comes seeing the tabletop gaming community be a 591 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: very important one to furthering more modern IP. 592 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, let's just talk about the background there for 593 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 3: a sec because Matt Now used to have this conversation 594 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: all the time. When we were building the company, like 595 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 3: ten years ago now, we talked a lot about like 596 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: what do we want to grow this into, like how 597 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 3: big and what are our aspirations? And the name that 598 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 3: kept coming up for us was Marvel. Not to say 599 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 3: we've reached nearly that, but their initial model was let's 600 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 3: build something cheap, fast and easy comics. Right like, they 601 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 3: cranked out a whole bunch of them. Those that worked, 602 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: they would continue to invest in, those that didn't would 603 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 3: elegantly exit, and then they'd move on to others. And 604 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 3: what that did was that allowed them to familiarize their 605 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: audience with worlds with characters, and then over the years, 606 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 3: in their case, many decades. They could then start working 607 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 3: on more elaborate versions of those worlds because their audience 608 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: already have the name recognition, and they could build that 609 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 3: fast and cheaply. Right. It costs so much less to 610 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 3: put out a comic book than it does a full 611 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 3: feature Hollywood movie. Right, So we looked at that model 612 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 3: and thought, if anything, I don't know if we can 613 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 3: ever achieve that, but that's a really nice goal. It 614 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 3: is easy for us to put out games. Games are 615 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 3: relatively inexpensive, especially compared to a TV show or movie. 616 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 3: So let's put out games that have characters and have 617 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 3: a little bit of edge to them and hint at 618 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 3: a world and build that audience familiarization, so that name recognition. 619 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: You might fall in love with a particular character from 620 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 3: a game because you've invited them into your home and 621 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: you interact with them night after night with your family 622 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 3: and friends. And so that model works really well for 623 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,239 Speaker 3: us because this is an easy way for us to 624 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 3: get into your house, and then we can start expanding. 625 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 3: Then we can say, like exploding kinds cool, there's a 626 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,959 Speaker 3: Netflix show. Now you can see those characters come to life. 627 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 3: And so this is just sort of the tip of 628 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 3: the iceberg for us. It's just starting to say, here's 629 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 3: what phase two looks like. Very established on phase one, right, 630 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 3: establish that name recognition. Now we're starting to dabble into 631 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 3: this larger world, which is a natural fit. It's much 632 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: more expensive, and you can only do it for those 633 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 3: titles that work really well. But again, like Marvel, we 634 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 3: get to double down on those that work well and 635 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 3: we get to elegantly sunset those that don't so that 636 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 3: we can spend our time on new things. 637 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: It's importantly God, I hope there's another Battleship movie because 638 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: that was a winner. You know, we could be the 639 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: next Battleship movie. It would be great. Still comes out 640 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: in a week, let's find out. Maybe. 641 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: Guys, this is been wonderful. 642 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. 643 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: Be sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts 644 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 2: and Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners. 645 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: Please go to Variety dot com and sign up for 646 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to 647 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.