Speaker 1: Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound On.
Speaker 1: Doors have opened, new subpoenas have been issued, and the
Speaker 1: damn has begun to break. This election is now all
Speaker 1: Congress has certified the results. I don't want to say
Speaker 1: the elections, but it was him pouring gasoline on the fire.
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Sound On Politics, Policy and Perspective from DC's top name.
Speaker 1: The White House Medical Unit is contacting every single person
Speaker 1: who meets the CDC definition. I think it is an
Speaker 1: opportunity to restress the message of positive message of s
Speaker 1: GENI said, look how far we've comed Floomberg Sound On
Speaker 1: with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Steve Bannon found guilty
Speaker 1: of criminal contempt of Congress. Welcome to the fastest hour
Speaker 1: in politics. With a verdict against Donald Trump's former advisor,
Speaker 1: just a day after the January six Committee holds forth
Speaker 1: in prime time. We've got a lot to talk about
Speaker 1: and specifically the legal case against Bannon, what it means
Speaker 1: for the large jerk case against members of the Trump
Speaker 1: White House. Will be joined by Jeffrey Cramer, former assistant
Speaker 1: U S Attorney. Now at guide Post, we'll talk more
Speaker 1: about what the committee accomplished last night and did not
Speaker 1: accomplish with Bloomberg Congress reporter Billy House, and we'll hear
Speaker 1: a special interview with documentary and Alex Holder, who did
Speaker 1: the last interview Donald Trump sat for in the White House.
Speaker 1: Analysis today from our signature panel after a wild week
Speaker 1: in Washington, Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis Jeanie Schanzano with
Speaker 1: us for the hour. The verdict was reached after only
Speaker 1: three hours of deliberation. Steve Bannon found guilty two counts
Speaker 1: of contempt of Congress. Criminal contempt. You may not have
Speaker 1: realized there was such a thing. It's been a long
Speaker 1: time since this has happened. Each kerry as long as
Speaker 1: a year in prison and a fine of up to
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars, so we could be talking up
Speaker 1: to two years here. Sentencing is set for October. It
Speaker 1: will happen on the twenty one. Bannon stayed quiet in
Speaker 1: the courtroom today as the verdict was delivered, as he
Speaker 1: did for most of the sile But like each other
Speaker 1: day this week, he was glad to talk to reporters
Speaker 1: who had gathered outside the court house. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of them too, here's Bannon after the verdict. I
Speaker 1: want to thank you start by thanking the jury. We
Speaker 1: respect their decision today. I really want to thank those
Speaker 1: hard working citizens of Washington, d c. That had to
Speaker 1: take an entire week off to go through this. So there,
Speaker 1: thanks respect the decision. We may have lost the battle
Speaker 1: here today, but we're not gonna lose this war and more.
Speaker 1: Where that came from. Bannon, of course, is the first
Speaker 1: from the inner circle, from Donald Trump's inner orbit, to
Speaker 1: face actual consequences for not cooperating with the committee. This
Speaker 1: is all about the January six committee, of course, which
Speaker 1: leaves us to wonder what it might mean for Peter Navarro,
Speaker 1: for instance, he's facing similar charges. There are others from
Speaker 1: the Trump White House, uh facing should we say, adjacent
Speaker 1: accusations here, and this could of course get a lot bigger.
Speaker 1: We add the voice of an expert on this, as
Speaker 1: you would expect on Bloomberg Radio, Jeffrey Kramer, former assistant
Speaker 1: US attorney, senior managing director at the firm Guide Post. Jeffrey. Welcome,
Speaker 1: Steve Bannon. Going to prison either way, always certainly facing
Speaker 1: a prison time, but it's obviously up to the judge.
Speaker 1: Either going to do a year in jail doubtful, you know,
Speaker 1: could he do a month or so, that certainly would
Speaker 1: be reasonable, But a non incarcitory sentence you can certainly
Speaker 1: see as well. Okay, So that's interesting because I understand
Speaker 1: each count has a minimum thirty days and up to
Speaker 1: a year. So how how might judge approach this? Well,
Speaker 1: judge has a lot of discretion cases. And this is
Speaker 1: obviously Bannon's first conviction. He's got no priors before. Um,
Speaker 1: so the judge does have a lot of latitude here.
Speaker 1: Bannon's attorney, David Shone today says it is not up
Speaker 1: to Congress, and they really frame this as the heart
Speaker 1: of the case. It is not up to Congress to
Speaker 1: decide whether executive privilege applies to a specific case. Is
Speaker 1: he right? Um? Yes and no. I mean Congress does
Speaker 1: have the look at it when they're looking at executive privilege.
Speaker 1: And some witnesses we've seen before the January six Committee
Speaker 1: have um used executive privilege to not testify in all
Speaker 1: our part we saw at ciprianly use some of that
Speaker 1: to give some testimony. Other parts of the question he
Speaker 1: declined to answer for that reason. Um, if it comes
Speaker 1: to a battle. In other words, someone alleges some sort
Speaker 1: of privilege, any privilege, um, and Congress disagrees with that,
Speaker 1: then it goes to the courts. Bannon, of course, will appeal,
Speaker 1: which he spoke about today with again his lawyer David Show.
Speaker 1: Let's listen against Steve Bannon, and the closed executor missed
Speaker 1: one very important phrase, right, I stand with Trump and
Speaker 1: the Constitution and I will never back off that. Ever,
Speaker 1: this didn't seem like a mistimeanor from hell, Mr Bannon,
Speaker 1: what happened that? That's pretty good. Hell, this is round one,
Speaker 1: that's what happened. Uh. This is a bulletproof appeal. Have
Speaker 1: you ever in another as seen a judge six times
Speaker 1: saying the case that they thinks the standard uh for
Speaker 1: willfulness is wrong? Jeffrey, is it a bulletproof appeal? There's
Speaker 1: no such thing as a bulletproof of deal. Um. The
Speaker 1: you know, the defense was handcuffed a little bit here
Speaker 1: in the sense that they wanted to put forth certain defenses, uh,
Speaker 1: and the judge denied those defenses. So they really couldn't
Speaker 1: argue too much. I think the only argument they had
Speaker 1: was that the subpoena itself was improperly signed or some
Speaker 1: ministerial amount like that. So there are some issues that
Speaker 1: they could bring, you know, certain defenses they wanted to
Speaker 1: raise the jury they were not allowed to. So those
Speaker 1: are viable appeals, but certainly not a not an easy
Speaker 1: one from Mr Bannon. His team did not present any
Speaker 1: defense witnesses. Uh what do you make of that decision?
Speaker 1: Why not build a case around executive privilege? You know,
Speaker 1: there really wasn't too much of a case, uh to
Speaker 1: to be brought. I mean they tried to, Like I say,
Speaker 1: they tried to bring a couple defenses in, but the
Speaker 1: judge would not allow that. Once the judge denied those motions,
Speaker 1: this was basically just a slow moving guilty pleader. There
Speaker 1: wasn't too much of a defense arguing to make. We saw,
Speaker 1: not surprisingly a fairly craik verdict. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: three hours and lunch, um, So there really wasn't too
Speaker 1: much to do here for the defense. So the other
Speaker 1: the other uh item that that they present as as
Speaker 1: part of the defense is the fact that, for instance,
Speaker 1: Benny Thompson did not testify. Members of the January six
Speaker 1: committee who subpoenaed Steve Bannon did not testify Listen again
Speaker 1: to Steve Bannon from today. I only have one disappointment
Speaker 1: and that is the gutless members of that show trial
Speaker 1: committee that j Sax committee didn't have the guts did
Speaker 1: come down here and testify an open Does that matter
Speaker 1: from a legal standpoint, Jeffrey, not at all. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure he would have liked to across examined. But
Speaker 1: the fact is, you know, a citizen, Mr Bannon was
Speaker 1: subpoened to come before the panel just to you or
Speaker 1: I or any or else could be subpoena to coming
Speaker 1: for a Congress or a grand jury or a trial
Speaker 1: to be adjured, and you can't just say no. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are reasons why, if it's privilege or some other
Speaker 1: thing that's under that's recognized under the law, but you
Speaker 1: can't just thumb your nose. And that's what happened here.
Speaker 1: And that's why I say it really wasn't that difficult
Speaker 1: the case, but it's not necessary for anyone from the
Speaker 1: committee to actually testify. You got it, Jeffrey. You're a
Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor. You spent more than twenty years in
Speaker 1: corporate investigations, experience in fraud detection. This case, you have
Speaker 1: a unique view on this case. What what could it
Speaker 1: mean for Bannon in the other investigations that are underway now,
Speaker 1: like we're seeing in Georgia, the Southern District of New
Speaker 1: York that are that are trying to get into the
Speaker 1: effort to overturn the election and could be sending out
Speaker 1: and already have in many cases subpoenas. Could he be
Speaker 1: in and out of jail for the next several years. Um, well,
Speaker 1: not just Mr Bannon, but anyone that's subpoenaed before a
Speaker 1: grand jury. Again, can't just say no, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to show up. So yees if if he continues this
Speaker 1: or anyone continues this, We've seen Mr Navarro's trial coming
Speaker 1: up in a few months. Um, you know, this is
Speaker 1: the first shot across the bottle. So while they can
Speaker 1: thumb their nose at the process, there are consequences to
Speaker 1: be paid. And then just stepping back for a second,
Speaker 1: that's really what this goes to, is the process. You know,
Speaker 1: the criminal justice process stops if people refuse to come
Speaker 1: into the grand jury or or serve as a jury
Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. Um, you can't get to
Speaker 1: the truth. So this, well, it is a mysteryan I
Speaker 1: think these are important cases because it really does go
Speaker 1: through the process itself. YEA, does this verdict though, inform
Speaker 1: other cases from a legal viewer? Is that not a factor? Um?
Speaker 1: It doesn't affect the facts of other cases, but it
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't impact those defends and those defense lawyers to
Speaker 1: whether or not they want to take this to trial.
Speaker 1: And here you saw a jury really make short shrift
Speaker 1: of Mr Bannon's case. Now Mr Navarro's case is slightly different,
Speaker 1: but not too much. Um. And there are other cases
Speaker 1: that could be teed up as well. So you know,
Speaker 1: play this up for a second. If there was an acquittal,
Speaker 1: you know, could do her natie and that would certainly
Speaker 1: affect the defense is going for they might be emboldened.
Speaker 1: It's the exact opposite here. Now they're well, do I
Speaker 1: really want to get a guilty play and look at
Speaker 1: jail time? Wow? Uh sentencing I mentioned October twenty one.
Speaker 1: What will the timing of an appeal look like? Um?
Speaker 1: You know Mr Bannon's in no hurry to get this stunt.
Speaker 1: Longer he can stay out, the better for him, as
Speaker 1: as with any defense, So you know they'll be post
Speaker 1: trial motions um. And then they'll be an appeal to
Speaker 1: the appellate courts and then maybe an appeal past that.
Speaker 1: So you know, as I say, it depends if the
Speaker 1: judge is going to sentence Mr Bannon to prison at
Speaker 1: the sending and if he's going to stay that decision
Speaker 1: pending appeal. That's really what it comes down to. Fascinating
Speaker 1: insights from a voice of experience. As I mentioned, Jeffrey Kramer,
Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, managing director of guide Post Solutions with
Speaker 1: us to get things rolling here on the fastest hour
Speaker 1: in politics. Steve bann and found guilty and as we mentioned,
Speaker 1: it took all of three hours. I want to assemble
Speaker 1: the panel, Uh just quickly here for a quick round
Speaker 1: with Rick Davis and Jeanie Tanzano. Rick, you you, I'm
Speaker 1: assuming expected a guilty verdict here, but what happens in
Speaker 1: sentencing time? Do you actually see Steve Bannon in handcuffs
Speaker 1: going into jail? You know, if you exhaust all his
Speaker 1: appeals and he's still got a conviction, I can see
Speaker 1: that they put him behind bars for maybe just a
Speaker 1: short while. Because I think that it is part of
Speaker 1: the president I mean, I don't think they want people
Speaker 1: thumbing their nose at this kind of you know, process,
Speaker 1: especially the judicial aspect of it. And uh and you
Speaker 1: know lasting I think these judges want to do even
Speaker 1: trump a pointed judges like this one. They don't want
Speaker 1: to undermine congressional authority. And if you if you can't
Speaker 1: have any veracity behind your subpoenas, then you know, what's
Speaker 1: the point of an investigation. He's going to raise a
Speaker 1: lot of money on this one, genie, right, even from jail,
Speaker 1: this could be a lucrative experience for Steve Bannon. It is.
Speaker 1: We understand he was smiling as the very it was read.
Speaker 1: He came out with all his shirt sound and stood
Speaker 1: outside and spoke. And you know, I am still stuck
Speaker 1: on this took only three hours, including the lunch. But
Speaker 1: the reality is the prosecutor used the analogy of a
Speaker 1: parking ticket, and that's an apt one. You get a ticket,
Speaker 1: you either pay repeal. You don't have the option of
Speaker 1: just saying, oh, I'm not going to do that. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to comply. That's not how our system works.
Speaker 1: And the judge and of course the jury here, let
Speaker 1: Steve Bannon know that you know, misdemeanor from hell bulletproof
Speaker 1: appeals aside. This is the reality of our system, and
Speaker 1: it reinforces the Bannon brand. Rick, Yeah, I mean rebel brand. Um.
Speaker 1: You know. It reinforces that brand up until the time
Speaker 1: he actually has to spend the night in prison. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a little different. Yeah, And in that way, the
Speaker 1: brand actually starts looking like uh tarnish on it. Rick
Speaker 1: and Genie, stay with us as we walk through the
Speaker 1: hour with our panel and looking back on the January
Speaker 1: six Committee hearing last evening. As Liz Cheney says, the
Speaker 1: dam has begun to break. We heard out take from
Speaker 1: former President Trump, and we learned about more scary moments
Speaker 1: that involved the Secret Service in Mike Pence, but didn't
Speaker 1: change anything in the bigger case. The best panel in
Speaker 1: the business. Next will check traffic and markets for you
Speaker 1: on the way too on Sound On. I'm Joe Matthew
Speaker 1: and this is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg. You sound
Speaker 1: on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. The January six
Speaker 1: Committee weighs in on the Bannon verdicts a victory for
Speaker 1: rule of law, reads the statement of course on the
Speaker 1: heels of the prime time hearing last night, which will
Speaker 1: not be the last. It turns out. Congresswoman Liz Cheney
Speaker 1: says the flow of information is too heavy to stop
Speaker 1: this now here she is from last night, doors have opened,
Speaker 1: new subpoenas have been issued, and the damn has begun
Speaker 1: to break. The dam has begun to break. One of
Speaker 1: the takeaway lines from that hearing last night. As we
Speaker 1: reassembled the panel, Rick Davis, Jeannie Chanzano, Bloombergy Politics contributors
Speaker 1: for the for what should have been originally planned to
Speaker 1: be the finale Genie, there was not a lot of new.
Speaker 1: We we did get some new stories. The outtakes from
Speaker 1: former President Trump were actually fascinating to watch as he
Speaker 1: recorded the videos on the sixth and the seventh of January.
Speaker 1: There was a heartbreaking account of the Secret Service agents
Speaker 1: sending messages home to family thinking they wouldn't get out alive.
Speaker 1: But was anything added to the legal case the end
Speaker 1: of season one the finale, and season two is coming
Speaker 1: in September, that's what we keep hearing. So yeah, so um,
Speaker 1: you know, and I agreed, there wasn't a lot new,
Speaker 1: but that what they did was they gave us a
Speaker 1: lot of details. Like we all watched as this unfolded,
Speaker 1: but of course we didn't know what was going on
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. And as you mentioned, there was the
Speaker 1: audio of Mike Pence is secure a d detail calling home,
Speaker 1: feeling like they were saying their final goodbyes. There was
Speaker 1: the really chilling video of Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell
Speaker 1: down there trying to get Congress back so they could
Speaker 1: finish the people's business. And you know, for me, I
Speaker 1: think one of the most chilling aspects was the President's
Speaker 1: final words saying, you know, after all of that, the deaths,
Speaker 1: the destruction, the attack, his focus was Mike Pennce, let
Speaker 1: me down. So I think, you know, not a lot
Speaker 1: new not sure if they got there legally in terms
Speaker 1: of the President's culpability, but what a damning sketch it
Speaker 1: really was, and they I thought, they presented it once
Speaker 1: again well last night. So eight hearings in the can here,
Speaker 1: Rick forget doing more and we are apparently going into overtime.
Speaker 1: But what about the time that's already been spent. This
Speaker 1: has been a lot of hearings for people to be watching.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of hours they were they run what
Speaker 1: two to three hours each? Uh? Was this produced. Well,
Speaker 1: was that was that an effective way to to kind
Speaker 1: of leave people hanging to Ginnie's point for the next season. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I watched most of the hearings when they were you know,
Speaker 1: live broadcast, and I was fascinated by it. I'm a junkie,
Speaker 1: total nerd for this stuff. And and so it was
Speaker 1: a mix of UH surprises, things I didn't know, so
Speaker 1: I learned things. The format was fascinating to me as
Speaker 1: a Republican. All the testimony came from Republicans. This was
Speaker 1: not a you know, situation where you had a bunch
Speaker 1: of Democrats picking on Republicans, which we've seen a lot
Speaker 1: in in previous UH investigations and so or vice versa.
Speaker 1: And and so I think there's their structure and in
Speaker 1: the approach they took was very solid. And I must say,
Speaker 1: you know, the only thing missing I think was I
Speaker 1: kind of was expecting the last night a smoking gun.
Speaker 1: I stayed in there all the way two hours and
Speaker 1: forty minutes. Well, that means a lot of people were Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I see that a problem. The one thing I
Speaker 1: was looking for was that, like, did Donald Trump talk
Speaker 1: to somebody in the crowd, you know, at the time
Speaker 1: they were going into the capital. And and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, it was clear, like what Adam Kinziger said,
Speaker 1: he didn't he didn't fail to act, he chose not to.
Speaker 1: What I was looking for was that third thing, which
Speaker 1: is he actually participated in it, and and and not
Speaker 1: by leaving out the things he would normally do, call
Speaker 1: the Department of Defense, called the Homeland Security. Um. You
Speaker 1: know they left it up the vice president to do that. Um. Uh,
Speaker 1: he's the one who took charge, and rightly so. But
Speaker 1: but I was looking for, like culpability, did he actually participate?
Speaker 1: If if the Secret Service had let him go to
Speaker 1: the Hill and and actually be a part of that
Speaker 1: very different story, I think we'd be talking about a
Speaker 1: totally different story. Um. And maybe thank God for the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court or for the Secret Service, because I kept
Speaker 1: us from actually having a constitutional crisis where the president
Speaker 1: was trying to overturn an election himself, right, not just
Speaker 1: by you know, hoping the mob did it for him.
Speaker 1: I mentioned the the outtakes, if I can use that
Speaker 1: that term, the raw footage, behind the scenes footage of
Speaker 1: the former president not only recording the Rose Garden video
Speaker 1: message in which she told supporters you know, leave the Capitol,
Speaker 1: but that he loved them and they were special. Remember
Speaker 1: there was also an address to the nation on January seven.
Speaker 1: On the following day to try to follow follow up
Speaker 1: on all of this stuff. As he spoke from the
Speaker 1: White House from behind the presidential podium, or were brought
Speaker 1: into the room, and you can hear Ivanka Trump off
Speaker 1: camera talking with the President as he bumps into as
Speaker 1: you can hear him stumbling over some copy. But then
Speaker 1: he hits a very important line that he refuses to
Speaker 1: say in the message. Let's listen. The demonstrators who infiltrated
Speaker 1: the capital have defied the seat of dest just defiled, right,
Speaker 1: so I can't see it very well. Okay, I'll do this.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this. Let's go. But this election is
Speaker 1: now over. Congress has certified the results. I don't want
Speaker 1: to say the elections over. I just want to say
Speaker 1: Congress has certified the results without siding the elections. Sound okay, okay,
Speaker 1: Jeannie doesn't that kind of say at all. He wouldn't
Speaker 1: mention that the election was over on the day after
Speaker 1: the capital burned, That's right. And as late as last
Speaker 1: week we know he is still calling state officials to
Speaker 1: overturn their certified results for the election. And you know
Speaker 1: that's right. Rick is right. The president. They may not
Speaker 1: have been able to show that he commanded these far
Speaker 1: right wing militia groups, but I have to say, listening
Speaker 1: to how those tweets that he was sending out the
Speaker 1: one at you know, to twenty four about Vice President
Speaker 1: of Pence, about how they incited that mob, I think
Speaker 1: there is a possibility that we do see the d
Speaker 1: o J Act, at least as far as obstruction of
Speaker 1: Congress and obstruction of ownership official proceeding. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is two thirty years of history. No president or public
Speaker 1: official has ever done something like this to stay in power,
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump did it. And so I do think
Speaker 1: they methodically laid out that, if nothing else, this man
Speaker 1: is not fit to serve. As we mentioned, they're not done.
Speaker 1: Rick and Jennie will stay with us here. We're gonna
Speaker 1: add Billy House to the mix coming up here as
Speaker 1: we go into extra innings on the January six Committee.
Speaker 1: He's next on the fastest hour in politics. This he
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg. It's unknown when the next hearing will be
Speaker 1: the January six Committee, other than sometime in September. So
Speaker 1: what we learned last night, by the way, is after
Speaker 1: Liz Cheney's primary in Wyoming. And there are a lot
Speaker 1: of questions about what this does to the timeline. Remember
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a final report. Well that's delayed now
Speaker 1: they're saying there'll be an interim report. And if this
Speaker 1: rolls passed as we have been hearing the last twenty
Speaker 1: four hours, this rolls past the mid terms. This committee
Speaker 1: could be shut down if Republicans take control of the House.
Speaker 1: So where are we going. That's why we wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to Billy House Bloomberg, Congress reporter, who has been
Speaker 1: all over these hearings and back with us on sound On.
Speaker 1: It's great to have you, Billy. What's your thought on this?
Speaker 1: Is this committee about to crash into the mid term elections?
Speaker 1: I think it very well do so, or at least
Speaker 1: its final report will come right before the elections. Uh.
Speaker 1: But in terms of crashing at the end of the year, Hey,
Speaker 1: there's no there's no there's no reason to believe Republicans
Speaker 1: won't keep it alive and then show us some of
Speaker 1: the stuff we aren't seeing. Well, gosh, tell me more,
Speaker 1: because I thought the whole idea was that, you know,
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy would would would turn around, shut down the
Speaker 1: committee and start investigating the investigators as we hear. And
Speaker 1: that's all I mean. I mean that the Republicans have
Speaker 1: several ideas bannering amongst themselves about whether they should take
Speaker 1: over this committee, look at its documents and present its
Speaker 1: own version of all these videos and depositions, or have
Speaker 1: another committee investigate these investigators about what they left out
Speaker 1: or what their motives might have been allegedly. So there's
Speaker 1: still that's still very early in the plotting. Of course,
Speaker 1: we obviously have a lot to learn. Still, Billy House,
Speaker 1: we thank you as ever. Bloomberg, congretional reporter with us
Speaker 1: here on Bloomberg Sound On. Uh, you know, some of
Speaker 1: the most incredible parts of this hearing last evening, if
Speaker 1: you're interested in, you know, for the sake of history,
Speaker 1: if as Rick was saying, you know you're interested in
Speaker 1: this on a personal standpoint, was the behind the scenes stuff,
Speaker 1: the images behind the scenes, uh, inside the room in
Speaker 1: Congress were the leadership was hiding behind the scenes as
Speaker 1: we heard from the President recording these video messages. And
Speaker 1: you know who spent a lot of Time Behind the
Speaker 1: Scenes is documentary, and Alex Holder and Bloomberg had an
Speaker 1: exclusive sit down with him that we want to listen to.
Speaker 1: Leanne Garin's and Tom mackenzie spoke with Holder about his
Speaker 1: experience having conducted the very last television interview that Donald
Speaker 1: Trump gave in the White House. This was long after
Speaker 1: the election, and his documentary on the Trump White House,
Speaker 1: the build up, the storming of the Capitol, and so forth,
Speaker 1: is why the committee subpoenaed uh over a hundred hours
Speaker 1: of his raw footage. We had an opportunity to get
Speaker 1: a sense of what it was like to be in
Speaker 1: the room with the how the president was conducting himself,
Speaker 1: and what Polder actually thought that Donald Trump really believed
Speaker 1: the inside what's listening, Trump actually believed came to believe
Speaker 1: the lie that he had started back in which was
Speaker 1: that if there was a chance he wouldn't win, delegitimizing
Speaker 1: the vote was a technique that he was playing, and
Speaker 1: I think back in twenty sixteen he knew it was,
Speaker 1: you know, a lie. He would probably argue that it
Speaker 1: was more a joke, but the idea of of making
Speaker 1: people think that the election and the results didn't didn't matter,
Speaker 1: didn't count, was something that he'd been playing with for
Speaker 1: for years earlier. When it came to sort of reality
Speaker 1: that he clearly lost the election, he then started to
Speaker 1: really push this this point. And when I interviewed him
Speaker 1: a month after the election, so it was the last
Speaker 1: interview that Trump ever gave in the White House was
Speaker 1: on the fourth or fifth of December in the White House,
Speaker 1: and he's still a president of the United States. And
Speaker 1: this is after his Attorney general, after you know, everybody
Speaker 1: really around him except some of the loonys were We're
Speaker 1: saying that there's absolutely no evidence to support his positions.
Speaker 1: And then they had lost all of their court cases,
Speaker 1: including cases by Republican judges that he had in fact appointed,
Speaker 1: had all dismissed all of these lawsuits about the election,
Speaker 1: and it was quite clear that that President Biden by
Speaker 1: the time President led Biden had won. And so he
Speaker 1: and he still maintained this position where he was not
Speaker 1: only just saying how Biden didn't get eighty million votes,
Speaker 1: he was coming up with remedies essentially to his situation.
Speaker 1: I what needs to happen to ensure he in fact wins,
Speaker 1: and he starts going on about Georgia and how the
Speaker 1: election officials there were cowards and stupid. These were Republican
Speaker 1: officials to not open up the that the balance, to
Speaker 1: check signatures, and it was coming up with all sorts
Speaker 1: of conspiratorial ideas. And then starts denigrating the judicial system.
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, Trump has this ability to passionate.
Speaker 1: And he does, and he there was no doubt in
Speaker 1: my mind that he absolutely believed in what he was saying,
Speaker 1: which is there obviously in no way of defense, and
Speaker 1: and and and the fact is actually terrifying that there's
Speaker 1: no way of being able to rationalize with him. And
Speaker 1: Bill bar said in his testimony that Trump was a
Speaker 1: man that was detached from reality. This is the president
Speaker 1: of the United States with all the power and the
Speaker 1: apparatus that surrounds the president of the United States, which
Speaker 1: I saw. I mean, the guy with the nuclear football
Speaker 1: was standing outside the room when I was interviewing the
Speaker 1: President of the United States, telling me what needs to
Speaker 1: happen is we need to find quote brave judges. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is America. This is not you know, a sort
Speaker 1: of a country where it is not governed by like
Speaker 1: the rule of law and democracy, right, I mean, George
Speaker 1: Washington's painting is looking down at at Trump whilst I'm
Speaker 1: interviewing him, and he's coming out with is anti democratic ideas.
Speaker 1: It was absolutely remarkable and horrifying. But he when you
Speaker 1: tell SENTI five million people that and it's coming from
Speaker 1: the incumbent president and the guy they voted for, that
Speaker 1: their vote didn't count. What what does anyone expect is
Speaker 1: going to happen next? I mean, it's going to be
Speaker 1: absolute fiasco. And I'm incredibly dangerous, fascinating peak behind the
Speaker 1: curtain there from Alex Holder, the documentarian, and I'm awfully
Speaker 1: curious to see this whole thing when it finally rolls out.
Speaker 1: Gave Donald Trump his last interview in the White House,
Speaker 1: and now speaking today with Bloomberg TV and Radio, will
Speaker 1: reassemble the panel next their take on what comes next
Speaker 1: on the fastest hour in Politics. Well, I've Rick and
Speaker 1: Jeannie on the way. I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg. You sound on with Joe Matthew
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. So much talk about the January six
Speaker 1: Committee and so many what ifs. What if Kevin McCarthy
Speaker 1: had actually played along with this and provided other representatives
Speaker 1: after Nancy Pelosi, you know, refused to have the Jim
Speaker 1: Jordan's of the world involved. What if they actually had
Speaker 1: subpoena power. What if Republicans could have brought witnesses? What
Speaker 1: would that have been? Like? Donald Trump thinks it might
Speaker 1: have been smarter. Right. We heard from him in a
Speaker 1: in a statement saying as much that Kevin McCarthy should
Speaker 1: not have made the decision he did to simply turn
Speaker 1: away from the committee. Call it unlawful, unconstitutional, but interesting.
Speaker 1: In the prime time hearing last evening, Liz Cheney towards
Speaker 1: the end, in her closing remarks, what if theory? Listen
Speaker 1: for those of you who seemed to think the evidence
Speaker 1: would be different if Republican leader McCarthy had not withdrawn
Speaker 1: his nominees from this committee. Let me ask you this,
Speaker 1: Do you really think Bill Barr is such a delicate
Speaker 1: flower that he would will to under cross examination Pat Sippoloni,
Speaker 1: Eric Hirshman, Jeff Rosen, Richard Donohue. Of course they aren't.
Speaker 1: None of our witnesses are. Let's reassemble the panel. Rick Davis,
Speaker 1: Jennie Chanzano, Bloomberg Politics contributors. Uh is Giana something here?
Speaker 1: Rick the idea that this is somehow illegitimate because Kevin
Speaker 1: McCarthy chose not to take part, Would it have changed
Speaker 1: the outcome? I don't think so. I think kind of
Speaker 1: side with Liz Cheney on this. The testimony that we
Speaker 1: heard from people who are intimately involved with Donald Trump
Speaker 1: and his administration and out made the point the all
Speaker 1: Republicans who were all employees or colleagues I guess of
Speaker 1: the president and not not to mention family members. So
Speaker 1: who would Republicans have called. Well, you can only think
Speaker 1: that they would want to put Democrats on the diets
Speaker 1: and and ask them questions. But I don't know who
Speaker 1: who would have any insight into what spurred this. I mean,
Speaker 1: are they going to try and you know, pursue the
Speaker 1: Antifa kind of line that maybe they were, but like,
Speaker 1: there's just no evidence that they could find anybody to
Speaker 1: talk to. So I I think it would have been
Speaker 1: a bit of a trap for uh McCarthy because I'm
Speaker 1: not sure he would have had very many options, and
Speaker 1: then they'd have to sit there for all of these
Speaker 1: hearings on television. Genie with the delicate flower known as
Speaker 1: Bill Barr. That's right, the only time he's been called
Speaker 1: a delicate flower. You know, one thing I think that
Speaker 1: Republicans on the committee could have done is they could
Speaker 1: have made the committee a lot less cohesive, a lot
Speaker 1: less organized in terms of their presentation. And you know,
Speaker 1: they could have you know, broken in asked questions, distracted,
Speaker 1: made it less watchable TV, if you will. So I
Speaker 1: do think there's ways in which they could have got
Speaker 1: gotten them off track, and so quite frankly, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, history the American public were all served by
Speaker 1: the fact that that didn't happen. But you know, any
Speaker 1: time you hear Donald Trump say something like, you know,
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy screwed up. He should have done this, you know,
Speaker 1: it's because he thinks it would have been in his
Speaker 1: interest to have them there, and distracting from what is
Speaker 1: has been an utterly, you know, devastating portrayal of him
Speaker 1: and so devastating. I sat there last night also watching
Speaker 1: him right on Truth social and you He was unhinged
Speaker 1: last night and today and Truth Social in terms of
Speaker 1: his attacks on everyone trying to deflect blame for this
Speaker 1: thing you signed up for Truth Socialist out what that
Speaker 1: means Joe Matthew I can get it without siding. Hey, listen,
Speaker 1: I do my duty. I'd like to I'd like to
Speaker 1: share with you in news. I don't think Rick is
Speaker 1: going near it, but I we haven't had that conversation.
Speaker 1: Does she have her own Netflix account? Let's really get
Speaker 1: into this. I do Rick Davis many in the household.
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked so much about Mike Pence, and
Speaker 1: wasn't it something to hear again from you know, the
Speaker 1: Secret Service members who were just they clearly thought they
Speaker 1: were closer to trouble than anyone realized. Not only was
Speaker 1: the mob five feet away, but they thought they were
Speaker 1: not going to be able to get out alive. And
Speaker 1: they were sending messages home to family. But here's Mike
Speaker 1: Pence speaking in South Carolina like a presidential candidate and
Speaker 1: in expressing the pride that he has in being Donald
Speaker 1: Trump's vice president. Listen to this, and I must tell you,
Speaker 1: South Carolina couldn't be more grateful to have had the
Speaker 1: privilege to be vice president in the most pro life
Speaker 1: administration in American history. The Trump pens administration, every single
Speaker 1: day stood for the sanctity of human life. I saw
Speaker 1: it firsthand every day. That was Wednesday night the Florist
Speaker 1: Baptist Temple Florence, South Carolina. Bit you've been there, Rick,
Speaker 1: what's Mike Pence up to? Is this actually going to
Speaker 1: be a showdown potentially between Mike Pence and Donald Trump?
Speaker 1: Or is he trying to move on from what happened? Well,
Speaker 1: I think he's jerry picking out of the Trump administration
Speaker 1: those things that he wants to um take credit for. Um.
Speaker 1: He's a very righteous Republican. He brought that sort of
Speaker 1: Christian conservatism into the White House and and and that
Speaker 1: was his portfolio, and so gave Donald Trump the evangelical vote.
Speaker 1: And it shouldn't surprise anybody that he wants to keep
Speaker 1: that right. He they were able to stack the courts
Speaker 1: with conservative judges. He's going to talk about that as
Speaker 1: he goes along. But but these were the highlights for him.
Speaker 1: He will probably not talk about the low lights. He'll
Speaker 1: avoid that conversation. He won't take on Trump because the
Speaker 1: people in that room are probably pro Trump, but he
Speaker 1: wants to share that pro Tump Trump vote regardless of
Speaker 1: how Trump treated him. Does he have a base? I mean,
Speaker 1: how how would you advise the formation of a campaign
Speaker 1: like that. I think he's actually trying to go out
Speaker 1: there and find that base. And I see and I
Speaker 1: think he believes his base is rooted in the evangelical community,
Speaker 1: and so go there first. Right. If I were you
Speaker 1: helping orchestrate his rollout, which is very soft right now,
Speaker 1: I'd have him going to churches all over America. That's
Speaker 1: where it's safe for him and he doesn't have to
Speaker 1: get very political because he can talk about these kind
Speaker 1: of issues related to faith and and that's where he's comfortable.
Speaker 1: And it's a good transition away from being Donald Trump's
Speaker 1: lap boy. I mean, he's getting a little glow now
Speaker 1: because not being you know, Trump's friend is actually a
Speaker 1: positive even in our party right now. And so the
Speaker 1: question is can he actually build a base out of that?
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of people scratching your
Speaker 1: head one or if that's possible. It's gonna be speaking
Speaker 1: at the Heritage Foundation on Monday, Genie, the day before
Speaker 1: Donald Trump speaks at this uh sort of maga summit
Speaker 1: that they've put together his big return to Washington. Uh.
Speaker 1: That's strategic, right. This is not by accident, it's not
Speaker 1: they're fighting it out today in Arizona with these dueling
Speaker 1: events for their respective candidates that they've endorsed out there.
Speaker 1: They're coming to d C next week. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I listened to Pence, I
Speaker 1: think he reflects what I hear at least from many
Speaker 1: Republicans and even some independence and moderates, which is that
Speaker 1: there are a lot of Americans who like many of
Speaker 1: the policies that Donald Trump pursued. We heard some of
Speaker 1: that last night from Matthew Pottinger on the national security side.
Speaker 1: They like the policies. What they don't like is the behavior,
Speaker 1: the chaos and all that came with it. And so
Speaker 1: I think some of what Mike Pence is doing is
Speaker 1: he's trying to say we scored some big victories, and
Speaker 1: for Pence, they did. The Dobb's decision alone was a
Speaker 1: tremendous victory. For saying that I am Trump without the drama.
Speaker 1: He's saying, I am Trump without the drama. I offer
Speaker 1: you everything you liked and none of the things you didn't,
Speaker 1: and you know, without and can you build a base
Speaker 1: to Rick's point, I don't know, but but you know
Speaker 1: that is a that could be something to build on
Speaker 1: and I think we'll hear that from a lot of
Speaker 1: potential Republican twenty four candidates. Want to ask you both
Speaker 1: about Lee Zelden because I'm kind of shocked how little
Speaker 1: attention this is getting. A member of Congress, the Republican
Speaker 1: nominee for governor of New York attacked on stage uh
Speaker 1: at knife point and somehow survived this thanks to I
Speaker 1: guess his quick move in quick thinking of some other people.
Speaker 1: Listen to Representative Zeldin after it happened, simply grabbing his
Speaker 1: wrist until all of these great man who got here,
Speaker 1: A lot of people jumped on this guy in Pinnondad.
Speaker 1: I could do anything. We dis on the weapon had
Speaker 1: on his stuffled. Yeah, it's a guy looked like WOLVERINEI
Speaker 1: is like, you know, brass knuckles with knives on them here.
Speaker 1: Uh taken into custody and released. But which is its
Speaker 1: own story here? But you know, Rick, we've been talking
Speaker 1: about the January six riot for the better part of
Speaker 1: the hour here. Adam Kinzinger has said the violence is
Speaker 1: not over. How how dangerous is it to run for
Speaker 1: office in this country right now? Yeah, I think the
Speaker 1: amount of political violence is understated in the news media.
Speaker 1: One of the sessions of the January six Committee had
Speaker 1: members of the Georgia Election Commission. They're talking about how
Speaker 1: much violence they were put under, not necessarily physical, but
Speaker 1: you know, um emotional and online, and you know, the
Speaker 1: kind of attacks that they were worried about, the kind
Speaker 1: of threats that we're given, the kind of threats that
Speaker 1: we're given to people like Adam Kinzinger who are on
Speaker 1: the committee, And and I think this is something that
Speaker 1: we've got to spend some time on as a country
Speaker 1: to understand that this is unacceptable and and and and
Speaker 1: I think you know, anybody who crosses that line like
Speaker 1: they did today with Lise Alden ought to be punished
Speaker 1: to the full extent of the law and made an example.
Speaker 1: Because only through these examples are we going to be
Speaker 1: able to try and get containment on this. Because right now,
Speaker 1: I would say that every every politician I talked to
Speaker 1: is worried about having the lese Elden event at at
Speaker 1: their next about campaign event. You know, we talked a
Speaker 1: lot about increased security for members of Congress following the
Speaker 1: January six attacks. Genius, it's time to have a bigger
Speaker 1: conversation about that. It is I think about security, our
Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices, are members of Congress, are candidates, UM.
Speaker 1: And I also think we have to talk about the
Speaker 1: laws I live in New York, the bail reform laws,
Speaker 1: which which Lee Zelden, I think, to his credit, has
Speaker 1: talked about in the aftermath of this. They are incredibly problematic,
Speaker 1: and so I think you you're hearing Democrats, UM, some
Speaker 1: in the Purple States trying to push for more investment
Speaker 1: in police and policing at this point because they recognize
Speaker 1: the fact that these are real issues. I think a
Speaker 1: combination of that and also in terms of social media regulation,
Speaker 1: which we're also we keep hearing about, but we haven't
Speaker 1: seen movement on. So security, policing, and social media, all
Speaker 1: of those things have to be addressed because you cannot
Speaker 1: have the Republican candidate for New York State be attacked
Speaker 1: like this and candidates across the country vulnerable as they are. Genie.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Rick Davis. Great to have you back tonite
Speaker 1: our signature panel on Sound on Conversation. I look forward
Speaker 1: to you every day just like you do. Hey, the
Speaker 1: President's schedule just came out for the weekend shocker, nothing scheduled.
Speaker 1: The fastest hour in politics resumes on Monday. I'll meet
Speaker 1: you back here live from Washington. I'm Joe Matthew. This
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg