Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth podcast. The What About Now addition, as
Speaker 1: I discuss a possible Joe Burrow contract extension and other
Speaker 1: offseason priorities with Brad Spielberger, the salary cap expert from
Speaker 1: Pro Football Focus. And speaking of Joe Burrow, there's a
Speaker 1: book coming out soon that details his life story to
Speaker 1: date from Athens to Ohio State, to LSU and ultimately
Speaker 1: to Cincinnati. I'll talk to author Scott Person. The Bengals
Speaker 1: Booth Podcast is brought to you by Paycorps. More than
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Speaker 1: Find both inside the Bengals Half Now. Here's a quick
Speaker 1: reminder that you can add the latest edition of this
Speaker 1: podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by
Speaker 1: subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing
Speaker 1: since Peter King recognizing my hometown prior to the last
Speaker 1: six Super Bowl sportswriter Peter King has driven to work
Speaker 1: with one of the two head coaches about a week
Speaker 1: before the game. He did it with Zach Taylor last
Speaker 1: year and Philadelphia's Nick Sirianni this year. After reading about
Speaker 1: his ride with coach Sirianni, I shared with Peter the
Speaker 1: Knick's dad was my high school track coach and science teacher,
Speaker 1: and that commissioner Roger Goodell was also born in our
Speaker 1: hometown of Jamestown, New York. Peter took it from there
Speaker 1: and did some research before listing the most famous people
Speaker 1: born in Jamestown in his Football Morning in America column
Speaker 1: the day after the Super Bowl. He correctly had Lucy
Speaker 1: o Ball ranked number one. He had me way too
Speaker 1: high at number eight. But in any case, my friends
Speaker 1: and family got a big kick out of it, and
Speaker 1: it's always nice to see Jamestown, with its population of
Speaker 1: roughly twenty eight thousand, get a little publicity. Now let's
Speaker 1: get to this week's guests. Brad Spielberger, who has a
Speaker 1: law degree from Tulane University, is the salary cap expert
Speaker 1: for Pro Football Focus. Right now on PF you can
Speaker 1: find his list of the top one hundred players set
Speaker 1: to enter free agency. Jesse Bates his number four on
Speaker 1: his list, Von Bell forty six, Jermaine Pratt fifty second,
Speaker 1: and Hayden Hurst is seventy fifth. Brad joined me to
Speaker 1: discuss those players, as well as possible replacements if they
Speaker 1: don't return. But we start with the most important offseason
Speaker 1: issue for the Bengals, and it's possible ramifications. Brad, let's
Speaker 1: get right into the topic of Joe Burrows contract. He's
Speaker 1: not a free agent. There's a year left on his deal.
Speaker 1: The Bengals have a fifth year option the following year.
Speaker 1: They could franchise tag him multiple times after that if needed.
Speaker 1: So other than never wanting him to reach free agency,
Speaker 1: what are the practical reasons to get this done now? Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: first and foremost, obviously you want to keep your franchise
Speaker 1: player happy, but that is, you know, more of a
Speaker 1: non football related, non financial related reason. The big reason
Speaker 1: from a salary cap and contract and cash flow standpoint is,
Speaker 1: we know this market at quarterback is always going to
Speaker 1: grow and grow and grow. So the earlier you can
Speaker 1: get these deals done, Yes, it's gonna look massive when
Speaker 1: you first do it, but then a couple of years
Speaker 1: down the line. You know, Josh Allen making forty three
Speaker 1: million dollars a year now is gonna look like pennies
Speaker 1: when when Joe Boyle gets his deal done. So you
Speaker 1: just get it done. And look the twenty twenty one class.
Speaker 1: They've got Trevor Lawrence, these guys coming up right behind him.
Speaker 1: So you want to get it done early because that
Speaker 1: market's never gonna stop growing. At the Super Bowl, Jamar
Speaker 1: Chase said, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, Joe wants
Speaker 1: to sign a contract that allows him to keep his weapons.
Speaker 1: Nobody expects Joe Burrow to take a quote unquote hometown discount.
Speaker 1: So how did the Bengals pay him roughly fifty million
Speaker 1: dollars a year and still have room for others? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I don't expect him to either, and he has no
Speaker 1: reason to. You know, Frankly, I get that you want
Speaker 1: to keep winning and all these things, but he is
Speaker 1: an upper echelon quarterback that deserves the money. That reflects that.
Speaker 1: I think the way you can do it, though, structure
Speaker 1: is always super important. So you know, we talked a
Speaker 1: lot about Patrick mahomes is ten year, four hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty ye or whatever number you get seen him thrown
Speaker 1: out there, that doesn't really matter. You know, his cash
Speaker 1: flows were very weak in the early years. He was
Speaker 1: willing to do that in part because of this rolling
Speaker 1: guarantee structure where he was protected through many, many years
Speaker 1: of the deal because essentially each year, each off season
Speaker 1: money for him two years down the road becomes fully guaranteed.
Speaker 1: So the cash flows early on enabled them to keep
Speaker 1: Chris Jones, to keep a bunch of players they obviously
Speaker 1: trained Tiree kill, but they could have fit that if
Speaker 1: they wanted to. They're actually twentieth in cash spending this
Speaker 1: past season, so that's a burrow could do it is
Speaker 1: you in theory you keep smaller cash flows up front
Speaker 1: and in turn smaller cap hits up front. But the
Speaker 1: Bengals had this rolling guarantee structure to say, you're protected
Speaker 1: for four or five years down the road. We're just
Speaker 1: not going to get to that money right away. B
Speaker 1: All again, it doesn't have to say yes that, but
Speaker 1: that is the way that they could keep spending on
Speaker 1: other players around him in the interim. So did the
Speaker 1: Chiefs provide a blueprint by winning the Super Bowl for
Speaker 1: how you can pay a quarterback and still keep good
Speaker 1: players around him. Yeah, to a degree, I think they did.
Speaker 1: You know, this year was the first year where Mahomes
Speaker 1: had that kind of really big cap hit and a
Speaker 1: larger cash outlay than the early years the deal. They
Speaker 1: kind of kept it, you know, near his fifth year option,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of reflect what that would have looked
Speaker 1: like if they had gone that route, which a lot
Speaker 1: of teams have done. The bills kind of the same thing.
Speaker 1: And they also just were able to push money down
Speaker 1: the line cat money that is with option bonuses and
Speaker 1: restructures of roster bonus and all these things. So yes,
Speaker 1: that they did show the blueprint. Like I said, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're keeping a twenty million per year defensive lineman and
Speaker 1: Chris Jones and all these guys that you want to keep.
Speaker 1: Frank Clark made a good amount of money in the
Speaker 1: last couple of years as well, because, you know, because
Speaker 1: Mahomes conceded on you know, how he received his money.
Speaker 1: We are chatting with Brad Spielberger, the salary cap analyst
Speaker 1: for Pro Football Focus, how realistic is it to extend
Speaker 1: Burrow and still have room for both Tee Haggens and
Speaker 1: Jamar Chase. You know, I know this answer is not
Speaker 1: going to be super well received, but I'm less bullish
Speaker 1: and less optimistic that all three of those guys are
Speaker 1: going to sign veteran contracts in Cincinnati. I mean, realistically,
Speaker 1: we're talking about probably one hundred million dollars for three players.
Speaker 1: So like, once you get into it, because I think
Speaker 1: Burrow's gonna get fifty plus, I think this offseason, Haggens
Speaker 1: is looking at over twenty million dollars per year. And
Speaker 1: then by the time Jamar Chase is up, and unlike Burrow,
Speaker 1: you've realistically more often seen every other position, the teams
Speaker 1: will let the guy I get into that fourth year
Speaker 1: going into the fifth year option, so Chase, there is
Speaker 1: still some time left. But you know, nevertheless, by the
Speaker 1: time he signs, he might be signing a thirty million
Speaker 1: per year contract. I think he's playing the way he's
Speaker 1: been playing. So again, I'm not saying this is some
Speaker 1: definitive thing. I don't know anything about it. I think
Speaker 1: Tee Higgins is going to be a very very interesting
Speaker 1: storyline this offseason, and maybe it does get done, but
Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna get done anytime soon. I'm
Speaker 1: like burrow T was a second round pick, so they
Speaker 1: don't have the fifth year option with him. The same
Speaker 1: is true for Logan Wilson. We know the Bengals would
Speaker 1: love to extend all three of those guys if they could.
Speaker 1: What would a market look like for Logan Wilson. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so I think he is why I've kind of
Speaker 1: convinced myself we're not going to see Jermaine Pratt back
Speaker 1: and some of the other defendencive players, bon Bell, Jesse Bates,
Speaker 1: you know, because I do think they want to keep
Speaker 1: Logan Wilson in the fold. Look, I think he's one
Speaker 1: of the better off ball linebackers the NFL. I'm a
Speaker 1: very good coverage player and a good in areas that
Speaker 1: matter in today's NFL. I don't think the top of
Speaker 1: the market the rukuand spent twenty million per year range,
Speaker 1: but I think he's looking, you know, in the fifteen
Speaker 1: to eighteen million per year range. He is one of
Speaker 1: the better players at the position, has been largely durable
Speaker 1: over his career, and I think also they've shown, you know,
Speaker 1: they trust him in every scenario. I know Prett was
Speaker 1: getting upset on Twitter and you know about not playing
Speaker 1: on third downs and things of that nature. Levand Wilson's
Speaker 1: their guy that they clearly show he's their number one
Speaker 1: guy defense, So you know, are they going to go
Speaker 1: there and extend him early is probably a different question,
Speaker 1: but he's in that kind of second tier of off
Speaker 1: ball linebacker contracts. In my opinion, the Bengals do have
Speaker 1: pending free agents five starters from the end of last
Speaker 1: season on offense, Hayden Hurst on defense, Jesse Bates, Von Bell,
Speaker 1: Jermaine Pratt, and Eli Apple. Who would you extend and
Speaker 1: how much would it cost? Well, my guess is miss
Speaker 1: would be like missing my choice. But my guess is
Speaker 1: that neither safety is back. Maybe von Bell I would
Speaker 1: be shocked if Jesse Bates is a Bengal next year. Um,
Speaker 1: Jermaine Pratt I think is not going to be there,
Speaker 1: like I mentioned, and then Apple, I mean, if he
Speaker 1: signs another one year, three or four million dollars deal,
Speaker 1: you probably can make that work. Hurst is interesting, right,
Speaker 1: So the tight end market is very strange right now,
Speaker 1: where the top of the market is kind of capped
Speaker 1: by George Kittle and Travis Kelsey and Darren Waller to
Speaker 1: a degree, but all these second tier guys that are,
Speaker 1: you know, not the caliver of that player, are getting
Speaker 1: twelve thirteen million dollars a year. If Hurst wants that,
Speaker 1: they're not going to give it to him. But I
Speaker 1: think if he's willing to settle for I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe not you know, three years, twenty seven millions something
Speaker 1: like that, which is even below the market I kind
Speaker 1: of projected for him on our offseason projections. But I
Speaker 1: think maybe you can make that work. But even that
Speaker 1: seems like a stretch. Realistically, I think it's possible we
Speaker 1: see none of those guys back next year if they
Speaker 1: don't resign Hayden Hurst. This is considered to be a
Speaker 1: very strong tight end draft, so that's obviously an option.
Speaker 1: But what about other free agent tight ends that they
Speaker 1: might be able to get a little bit cheaper. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so I think that is part of it. Ay,
Speaker 1: the draft class is very strong, and it'd be there
Speaker 1: is some depth there. I got like Foster Moreau with
Speaker 1: the Las Vegas Raiders this past year. I think is
Speaker 1: a younger and potentially cheaper version of a Hayden Hurst.
Speaker 1: So he's a name if you want to go real cheap.
Speaker 1: I think a guy like irb Smith is interesting, you know,
Speaker 1: been heard a bunch with the Minnesota Vikings, but is
Speaker 1: a good player when he's healthy, and you kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, just like Hayden Hurst, maybe you bring him
Speaker 1: in on that one year, three and a half of
Speaker 1: whatever it was millions flyer and then see where you
Speaker 1: can go from there. I think they're probably in that
Speaker 1: kind of bargain bid market, but which can work out
Speaker 1: a lot at tight end. We are talking to Brad
Speaker 1: Spielberger from Pro Football Focus. You can follow him on
Speaker 1: Twitter at PFF Underscore. Brad. I think all of us
Speaker 1: agree with you that Jesse Bates is almost certainly not
Speaker 1: going to be back. What's he going to get? Is
Speaker 1: he going to be one of the NFL's highest paid safeties.
Speaker 1: I think I would look at the Marcus Williams deal
Speaker 1: with the Baltimore Ravens, so he got five years seventy
Speaker 1: million for fourteen million per year. I think Bates will
Speaker 1: get a little bit more than that. So you know,
Speaker 1: I had five years, seventy five million from fifteen million
Speaker 1: dollars a year. I don't think he's going to get
Speaker 1: anywhere near that. You know, Derwin Jane and make if
Speaker 1: Fitzpatrick market. The baits is a very good player, but
Speaker 1: I think those guys offer more versatility. They're able to
Speaker 1: actually cover, I think in more like true man covers
Speaker 1: snaps in the slot. They can take on tight ends,
Speaker 1: and it came to the number three receiver, they can
Speaker 1: you know, I think are more effected down in the box,
Speaker 1: making plays, rushing the pass or things like that. Um
Speaker 1: of course, you know, maybe we don't know if Batsis
Speaker 1: wasn't used in those ways. But he's a good player.
Speaker 1: He's a good run deepender. He's delivered some some crushing
Speaker 1: hits in his time. But I think he is viewed
Speaker 1: as more of a kind of true deep third free safety,
Speaker 1: and those guys are just not getting paid right now
Speaker 1: as much as your jackknife kind of versatile guys like
Speaker 1: a Derwin and like a make a Fitzpatrick. We might
Speaker 1: disagree on whether they keep von Bell. I think I
Speaker 1: think it's more likely than you do. But let's say
Speaker 1: that they don't if they lose Bits and Bell. They
Speaker 1: do have Dax Hill waiting in the wings. They drafted
Speaker 1: him in the first round last year for that reason.
Speaker 1: But how is that mid range free agent market at
Speaker 1: safety if they need to add a starter out of
Speaker 1: those guys. I think Bell maybe he is most likely,
Speaker 1: but he would have to take it. I think a
Speaker 1: deal kind of in the similar range of the one
Speaker 1: he signed, and that is the mid tier at safety,
Speaker 1: there's there's always so many options. It's such a deep
Speaker 1: position right now, where outside of that top tier you
Speaker 1: can find a lot of mid range players, you know,
Speaker 1: good solid safeties life around Bell the first time he signed. Frankly,
Speaker 1: there's always that level of guys. So I think it's
Speaker 1: looking at you know, six to eight million per year
Speaker 1: for a lot of those guys. And I think if
Speaker 1: Bell is willing to sign for a deal similar to
Speaker 1: the one he's on right now, that I think since
Speaker 1: he should be open to doing that have him play
Speaker 1: opposite deck. So I think they're different players that bring
Speaker 1: different skill sets to the table, and Belle is very solid,
Speaker 1: just like good all around player that I think would
Speaker 1: be a benefit to that defense going forward. We are
Speaker 1: talking to Brad Spielberger from Pro Football Focus. Right tackle
Speaker 1: L Collins ended the season with a torn ACL He
Speaker 1: dealt with back problems before that, never practiced on Wednesday.
Speaker 1: How costly would it be to move on and how
Speaker 1: is the market for a starting right tackle if they
Speaker 1: had to go on that direction. Yeah, he's an interesting one.
Speaker 1: They obviously structure that deal with a lot of team
Speaker 1: protection with all these per game roster bonuses, which of
Speaker 1: course you don't earn if you're not playing. Um, they
Speaker 1: would save six million dollars if they called him, they'd
Speaker 1: have three point three three I'm in dead cap, which
Speaker 1: is not that at all. You know, it's certainly you
Speaker 1: can stomach that for trying to replace a right tackle.
Speaker 1: There are a handful of really good players coming up.
Speaker 1: You know, if you want to get into the Mike
Speaker 1: McGlinchey and Caleb McGarry and Juan Taylor conversation, I think
Speaker 1: you're looking at fourteen to sixteen million dollars a year,
Speaker 1: give or take. If you're looking at kind of the
Speaker 1: next tier of players. There's a handful of guys that
Speaker 1: are kind of swing guys. You know, Jermaine a Luminoire
Speaker 1: with the Las Vegas Raiders. You can look at Isaiah
Speaker 1: Win with the New England Patriots, who has now kind
Speaker 1: of been shuffled around, played on both sides of the line.
Speaker 1: Those guys, I think you maybe get a shorter term deal,
Speaker 1: one or two year deal for maybe four or five
Speaker 1: million a year. But of course, you know a lot
Speaker 1: of the time you are getting what you pay for.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the Collins injuries really are stacking up, and
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised if they try to address tackle.
Speaker 1: And I think those swing options I mentioned are intriguing.
Speaker 1: With Jonah going into his fifth year option, obviously he's
Speaker 1: had injury issues his whole career. You bring in a
Speaker 1: guy that does have experienced, you know, George Fant another
Speaker 1: one with the New York Jets who's played both sides
Speaker 1: of the line. Maybe that's intriguing because you think, hey,
Speaker 1: this guy might have to start at left tackle for
Speaker 1: a couple of games for US next year as well.
Speaker 1: So everybody listening to this knows there's been a ton
Speaker 1: of speculation about Joe Mixon. Is it time to move
Speaker 1: on from Joe to clear up cap space? Make the
Speaker 1: case for why that would make sense, and are there
Speaker 1: other ways to keep him but still save money against
Speaker 1: the cap. Well that the timing for that question is perfect,
Speaker 1: because if anyone hasn't seen Aaron Jones with the Green
Speaker 1: Bay Packers agreed to a pay cut this morning, and
Speaker 1: I think you're going to see Cincinnati with Joe Mixon,
Speaker 1: probably Minnesota with Dalvin Cook, probably the Cowboys with Ezekiel Elliott.
Speaker 1: Point to that and say, hey, Aaron Jones a very
Speaker 1: good player on a deal that's very similar to you guys,
Speaker 1: and he just agreed to a pay cut. So I
Speaker 1: think that is what you do with mix And look,
Speaker 1: I think he's a very good player. I know he
Speaker 1: had ups and downs here, some games where he really
Speaker 1: splashed somewhere he'd kind of disappeared into a degree obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, not in legal trouble now, it sounds like,
Speaker 1: but who knows what's going on there? And of course,
Speaker 1: just you know, people will love to talk about saving
Speaker 1: money and not spending a lot of this position. But
Speaker 1: in my opinion, I'd rather try to negotiate a pack
Speaker 1: up with him, chop off three four million dollars from
Speaker 1: his nine point four million dollars salary. I think cutting
Speaker 1: him and trying to go out in the market and
Speaker 1: get a player or drafting early is probably not the
Speaker 1: better approach. So that's what I would do there. It's
Speaker 1: trying to chop a couple million off that deal. Big
Speaker 1: picture are the Bengals in good shape to be able
Speaker 1: to retain at least the bulk of one of the
Speaker 1: league's best rosters. They're in phenomenal shape. I mean, they
Speaker 1: are looking at how good their rosters and their sixth
Speaker 1: right now in projected cap space. A lot of their
Speaker 1: veterans are, you know, set right now. Obviously we're talking
Speaker 1: about a ton of free agents and a ton of
Speaker 1: good young players coming up, but it's not likely they
Speaker 1: have a bunch of you know, Markie, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: Trey Hendrickson's not a free agent, or you know, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like a lot of their elite,
Speaker 1: elite players that they view as the foundational core pieces
Speaker 1: for the next couple of years are under contracts. So
Speaker 1: they're in their phenomenal shape. I don't think it's a
Speaker 1: question of whether they can do it um. I think
Speaker 1: it's a question of whether they want to go there
Speaker 1: and really kind of load up on this roster um.
Speaker 1: You know, they obviously that they they've been successful. But
Speaker 1: the question I think in their mind is if we
Speaker 1: go out and spend you know, just on Teagans and
Speaker 1: Jibburrow alone, we go spend seventy five million dollars a
Speaker 1: year on those two guys. Can we keep contending? And
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what you know if they think the answer
Speaker 1: to that question is yes. As I've said, you are
Speaker 1: listed as the salary cap expert at Pro Football Focus.
Speaker 1: But obviously you put a ton of time into free
Speaker 1: agency and studying the market. How good have the Bengals
Speaker 1: fared in free agency in recent years in your opinion? Phenomenally? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they've been on a heater a million roster construction across
Speaker 1: the board. I mean, yeah, I mentioned Trey Hendrickson's actually
Speaker 1: kind of a funny anecdote. He was projected a little
Speaker 1: bit lower on my board that offseason. He got the
Speaker 1: better deal, and then immediately I've played that deal, um,
Speaker 1: and I you know, I got poked fun a little
Speaker 1: bit for that saying you were low on him and
Speaker 1: he even better than the deal he already already got.
Speaker 1: So But no, I mean going back to like von
Speaker 1: Villin coming through now, I mean just it's all about
Speaker 1: these smart, smaller signings, these mid tier deals. I love
Speaker 1: the Mike Hilton deal, one of the best lack corners
Speaker 1: in the NFL, you know, just just being calculated with it.
Speaker 1: You'd never You rarely win when you make that big
Speaker 1: splash and bring in the top free agent that everyone
Speaker 1: wants to know, the name recognition guy. It's more of
Speaker 1: those mid tier deals and you add, you know, the
Speaker 1: interior offensive line moves. I love bringing Carris and Kappa.
Speaker 1: I mentioned Hendrickson for him, a great deal. Mike Hilton, like,
Speaker 1: none of these guys are top of market, but they're
Speaker 1: really really valuable to since Nati Bengals right now and
Speaker 1: it's they've been great the last couple of years. All right,
Speaker 1: final thing we started with Joe Burrow. I'm going to
Speaker 1: end with Joe Burrow. If they get this done, what's
Speaker 1: it look like? How many years, how much per year,
Speaker 1: how much of a guarantee? What do you think? So
Speaker 1: I'll say this, I think his side is probably pushing
Speaker 1: for four because that was the standard in the past
Speaker 1: before Patrick Mahomes kind of complicated that for everybody, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure the team is trying to say, Okay, let's
Speaker 1: go to six. So I'll guess they meet in the
Speaker 1: middle at five. And I'm thinking it's you know, it
Speaker 1: does depend if he goes first or justin Herbert, all
Speaker 1: those things, but I'll stop hedging it and give an
Speaker 1: answer here. So I'll say five years at fifty two
Speaker 1: and a half million per year, So do that quick
Speaker 1: mental math. But whatever that comes out to in a total,
Speaker 1: and then I mean, the guarantee of the thing is,
Speaker 1: I just don't think Cincinnati's going to totally give in
Speaker 1: on their structure and their ability to guarantee beyond year one.
Speaker 1: So my guess is we'll see, just like you know,
Speaker 1: a Kyler Murray lest year in Arizona and a couple
Speaker 1: of the recent deals, Josh Allen around one hundred million
Speaker 1: dollars fully guaranteed it's signing, but a lot of the
Speaker 1: guarantees going through the course of the deal are going
Speaker 1: to you know, vest later. Basically they're gonna kick in
Speaker 1: down the road and this rolling structure I mentioned, so,
Speaker 1: you know, and we'll see how his camp wants to
Speaker 1: you know, go about that. But that would be my
Speaker 1: guess is they try to get into that one hundred
Speaker 1: range and the guarantees and then it's yeah, about what
Speaker 1: I say, twenty two and a half times five would
Speaker 1: be the overall deal. As little early to do that
Speaker 1: mental math right now, I guess, but two sixty two
Speaker 1: and a half, two sixty two and a half. There
Speaker 1: you go. Worth every petty Bengals fans say, get out
Speaker 1: the pen and sign it now, Joe sounds good. Hey, Brad,
Speaker 1: this has been great. Appreciate your time, Appreciate your expertise.
Speaker 1: Keep up the great work. Thank you so much. There's
Speaker 1: a bunch of great stuff on Pro Football Focus dot
Speaker 1: com right now, including a really fast mock draft simulator
Speaker 1: that then grade your picks. I used it to do
Speaker 1: the first of many three round mock drafts that I
Speaker 1: will do between now in late April. I got a
Speaker 1: B minus for taking Utah tight end Dalton Kincaid in
Speaker 1: round one, a B plus for selecting Alabama cornerback Ricks
Speaker 1: in round two, and a C for grabbing Tulane running
Speaker 1: back Taje Spears in round three. My overall grade was
Speaker 1: a bus I'll see if I can get that grade
Speaker 1: up after spending a couple of days at the NFL
Speaker 1: Scouting Combine. The Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you
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Speaker 1: Fiber and by Kettering Health, the official healthcare provider of
Speaker 1: the Bengals. With more than one hundred twenty care facilities
Speaker 1: and fifteen hundred care providers, Kettering Health is committed to
Speaker 1: guiding you to your best health. Visit Kettering health dot
Speaker 1: org to learn more. If you're like me, you can't
Speaker 1: get enough information about Joe Burrow and his rise to
Speaker 1: NFL stardom. Well, Scott Person and Sam Smathers have literally
Speaker 1: written the book about him. It's called From Bulldog to Bengal,
Speaker 1: The Joe Burrow Story through the Eyes of his Hometown,
Speaker 1: and it will be available soon. Scott burst and join
Speaker 1: me this week to discuss the book. Scott, explain your
Speaker 1: connection to Athens, Ohio and why you chose to write
Speaker 1: about Joe Burrows upbringing. So. I grew up in Athens
Speaker 1: and I'm an Athens High school graduate. I've been following
Speaker 1: Joe on a granular level since high school. I mean,
Speaker 1: the story almost writes itself, doesn't it. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: an amazing story. I decided to co author it with
Speaker 1: Sam Smathers. Sam was Joe's first football coach, so he
Speaker 1: coached Joe from third through sixth grade, and he has many,
Speaker 1: many stories to tell, so I thought we were a
Speaker 1: good combination. One of the many things I learned from
Speaker 1: reading the book is how good the other members of
Speaker 1: the Borough family were as players. I think people know
Speaker 1: that his dad, Jimmy, played in the Canadian Football League.
Speaker 1: Maybe they know he had a few games of experience
Speaker 1: in the NFL, but they probably don't know that he
Speaker 1: was an All league cornerback at Nebraska. He won the
Speaker 1: Cotton Bowl, he won the Sugar Bowl. Joe's half brother Jamie,
Speaker 1: started on a national championship contending team at Nebraska. They're
Speaker 1: not the Manning brothers maybe, but Joe was pretty much
Speaker 1: born to do this. He what he was, and his
Speaker 1: other brother Dan also played at Nebraska's so Robin grew
Speaker 1: up in Nebraska. That was their hope from the beginning
Speaker 1: that Joe would play at Nebraska, but it wasn't in
Speaker 1: the cards. He really didn't get a lot of attention
Speaker 1: from Nebraska, which Ohio state. Of course, he transferred and
Speaker 1: they went back to Nebraska again they weren't interested. It
Speaker 1: all played out that he was going to go to
Speaker 1: either UC or LSU, and again he went to LSU
Speaker 1: and won the national title. During that process where he
Speaker 1: was deciding whether he would go to Cincinnati or LSU,
Speaker 1: I was speaking to Cincinnati's head coach at the time,
Speaker 1: Luke Fickle, regularly getting updates on Joe Burrow, and I
Speaker 1: learned from reading your book that his brother Dan played
Speaker 1: a pivotal role in Joe ultimately deciding to go to
Speaker 1: LSU instead. Yeah. So yeah, Dan and Coachoe down at
Speaker 1: LSU really have a bond. They really developed a bond.
Speaker 1: Joe does not like being recruited, and so he wouldn't
Speaker 1: answer the phone calls from Coachoe, and so Coachoe would
Speaker 1: just call Dan every night. So Dan was the one
Speaker 1: ultimately who I think convinced Joe that this was the
Speaker 1: place if you want to win a national title, I
Speaker 1: want to play at the highest level than LSU as
Speaker 1: your place. We are visiting with Scott Burson. He has
Speaker 1: written From Bulldog to Bengal, The Joe Burrows Story with
Speaker 1: Sam Smathers, one of Joe's youth coaches. People say that
Speaker 1: Joe has helped put Athens on the map. How did
Speaker 1: Athens and the athletes that Joe grew up with help
Speaker 1: Joe become what he is. This class that he happened
Speaker 1: to be in is the most athletic class ever to
Speaker 1: go through Athens High School, not only the boys but
Speaker 1: the girls. So I think there were twenty one twenty
Speaker 1: two that got sports athletic scholarship to college. So they
Speaker 1: were a remarkable class for such a small town. And
Speaker 1: so it wasn't just Joe. I mean he had a
Speaker 1: lot of compliments. The Lorman Twins played at Ohio University,
Speaker 1: he had a running back he ended up going to Northwestern,
Speaker 1: So I mean he was surrounded by a really strong cast.
Speaker 1: Joe has been the leader of the Bengals franchise almost
Speaker 1: from day one. When did those leadership traits start to
Speaker 1: stand out in Athens? That's interesting. I mean I think
Speaker 1: everyone recognized him as a leader from the very beginning.
Speaker 1: I mean when Sam Smathers met him when he was
Speaker 1: a third grader, he immediately said, He's going to be
Speaker 1: my quarterback, just because he has those leadership skills. He
Speaker 1: can understand the offense. His dad was a defensive coordinator,
Speaker 1: and so he learned how defenders think very very early,
Speaker 1: and so he was very good as as a quarterback.
Speaker 1: Zakaia Saltzman, one of his best friends, told me when
Speaker 1: I was writing the book that he thought that growing
Speaker 1: up in Athens. Athens is such a diverse place. Got
Speaker 1: country folk, you've got city folk, You've got Ohio University,
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty different countries represented there. You know,
Speaker 1: growing up in a diverse place, you learn how to
Speaker 1: relate to different people in the locker room. And so
Speaker 1: Joe is really good at relating to everybody in the
Speaker 1: locker room. And I think Athens had a role to
Speaker 1: play in that. So anybody familiar with my work knows
Speaker 1: that I love anecdotes. I love nuggets, and your book
Speaker 1: is full of them. And I'm not going to spoil
Speaker 1: the book by bringing up too many, but I do
Speaker 1: want to spotlight a few. We all remember Joe's Heisman's
Speaker 1: speech where he raised awareness of people dealing with poverty
Speaker 1: and hunger in the Athens area. This wasn't something that
Speaker 1: Joe worked on for weeks. He basically scribbled that on
Speaker 1: a note card that day. Correct. Yeah, So Robin, his
Speaker 1: mother said to Jimmy his dad, about an hour before
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be over at the venue, Hey,
Speaker 1: do you think Joe has anything written down. He said,
Speaker 1: you better go check on him. So Jimmy went and
Speaker 1: he was he just put a couple and he was
Speaker 1: putting a couple notes on a note card. Jimmy's not
Speaker 1: sure if he even used the note card. So that
Speaker 1: was very much. You know, I think a speech that
Speaker 1: came from the heart. You can see it. It's it's
Speaker 1: hard for Athenians like me to watch it without tearing up.
Speaker 1: You know, I've seen it many many times and writing
Speaker 1: this book, and it's still it still touches me. Jimmy
Speaker 1: has the note card, correct, Jimmy does have the note card,
Speaker 1: Yes he does. That would be a valuable piece of memorabilia,
Speaker 1: that's for sure. Yeah. So Joe has his Heisman trophy.
Speaker 1: He also has a trophy for winning Mister Football in Ohio,
Speaker 1: even though that trophy does not exist. Share that story. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he won Mister Football his senior year and he
Speaker 1: was being interviewed and he just very casually said, so
Speaker 1: when do I get the trophy? And the guy said, well,
Speaker 1: there is no trophy, and Joe was like, what do
Speaker 1: you what do you mean there's no trophy? You know
Speaker 1: this is you know, so at any rate, he went
Speaker 1: home and Robin and Jimmy had a trophy made for him.
Speaker 1: They went down to Zones, which is a place on
Speaker 1: Eastate Street in Athens, and they just had a mister
Speaker 1: mister football, mister Ohiward football trophy made and they put
Speaker 1: it on their mantle. I love that We are chatting
Speaker 1: with Scott Person who has written from Bulldog to Bengal,
Speaker 1: the Joe Burrows story through the eyes of his hometown,
Speaker 1: along with Sam Smathers. Going back to the draft, the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty draft conducted from Roger Goodell's basement. At least
Speaker 1: in the first couple of rounds. We all saw Joe
Speaker 1: get that call in his living room. One thing I
Speaker 1: never heard about was the scene outside the Borough home
Speaker 1: when that happened. And you have a great anecdote about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the high school organized a bit of a caravan
Speaker 1: after he was draft at number one, and they kind
Speaker 1: of snaked cars, just snaked through the neighborhood. They're in
Speaker 1: the plains and they were honking their horns and they
Speaker 1: were very excited and Robin and Jimmy waved from the window,
Speaker 1: but Joe was doing interviews, so it might have interrupted
Speaker 1: his was a little bit, but he wasn't able to
Speaker 1: go outside and say hi, but his parents did. So
Speaker 1: I'm picturing the scene from Field of Dreams at the
Speaker 1: end of the movie where you just see the headlights
Speaker 1: stretch for as far as the eye can see. It
Speaker 1: was similar to that. Yeah, yeah, something like that. At
Speaker 1: the time of the NFL Draft, there was rampant speculation
Speaker 1: on the NFL network and elsewhere that Joe didn't want
Speaker 1: to come to Cincinnati. He might pull a quote unquote
Speaker 1: Eli Manning and force his way out. His parents make
Speaker 1: it pretty clear in your book that that was never
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah, that was a narrative that they're not
Speaker 1: really sure how it started. I think it started when
Speaker 1: Joe just didn't want to be over confident, you know,
Speaker 1: he didn't he didn't want to just assume that the
Speaker 1: Bengals were going to take him, even though they'd had conversations.
Speaker 1: So I think it was just this humility that kind
Speaker 1: of led to some of his comments that he didn't
Speaker 1: want to be over confident. Somebody picked up on it
Speaker 1: and just ran with it, but it really didn't have
Speaker 1: any merit. Who was most helpful to you and writing
Speaker 1: this book, um, certainly Sam Smathers, my co author. I
Speaker 1: mean he arranged interviews, he was a fact checker for me.
Speaker 1: He gave me anecdotes. So Sam is amazing. He has
Speaker 1: a garage. His house is adjacent to the Athans High
Speaker 1: School football field. A garage is called the Dog Pound
Speaker 1: because of the bulldogs Athens High School Bulldogs. It may
Speaker 1: be the top Joe Burrow museum in the world. He
Speaker 1: does have people that stop by from out of state
Speaker 1: from time to time and knock on the door. But
Speaker 1: it's it's a lot of fun. It's certain certainly is
Speaker 1: maybe the best. I don't know, maybe maybe Jimmy and
Speaker 1: Robin's basement would certainly be up there too with Eisman Trophy.
Speaker 1: What does Joe mean to Athens and the surrounding communities. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Joe means a lot. I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: it's a it's an area that has struggled with poverty.
Speaker 1: It's an area that has needed hope, and I think
Speaker 1: Joe has provided that that hope in many ways, whether
Speaker 1: it's through his high st and speech, through his philanthropic efforts,
Speaker 1: through the Joe Burrow Foundation, which by the way, there
Speaker 1: is a portion of the proceeds in this book, they
Speaker 1: go to the foundation, you know, or it's on field
Speaker 1: effort you know that he puts in. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think he inspires people to be their best. Not Everyone's
Speaker 1: going to be a Joe Burrow and play in the NFL.
Speaker 1: But I know Sam Smathers says he's just as proud
Speaker 1: as of the kid you know who gets up every
Speaker 1: day doesn't allow his challenges to overtake him, gets up
Speaker 1: every day and goes down there and drives the forklift
Speaker 1: as he is of Joey. What did you learn in
Speaker 1: studying Joe and talking to all of these people that
Speaker 1: you had no idea about going in m You know,
Speaker 1: I would have to say I wasn't fully aware of
Speaker 1: how deeply embedded many of the people I went to
Speaker 1: high school are in Joe's life. So his basketball coach
Speaker 1: is somebody I grew up playing against. One of the
Speaker 1: guys I grew up with coach Joe four hundred, four
Speaker 1: hundred games in basketball and baseball. In when he was
Speaker 1: playing youth sports. There was another lady who got him
Speaker 1: addicted to carmel apples suckers that I went to high
Speaker 1: school with Joe, and I had the same lament elementary
Speaker 1: school principle, we were separated by thirty five years. So
Speaker 1: again just seeing how many people that I grew up
Speaker 1: with are a major influence on Joe's life. Another of
Speaker 1: the anecdotes that's in your book that I didn't know
Speaker 1: about comes from the National Championship game at LSU. We
Speaker 1: remember the performance, it was magnificent. We remember the cigar
Speaker 1: smoking after the game. I didn't realize he suffered a
Speaker 1: pretty significant injury in that game. Yeah, he did to
Speaker 1: his ribs. You know, he played the second half, just
Speaker 1: gutted it out. And that's Joe, though, you know it's you.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to drag him off the field, you know.
Speaker 1: You know everyone's looking at what Patrick Mahones did and
Speaker 1: we should give him kudos for playing with the ankle
Speaker 1: way he did. But I mean, Joe would never come
Speaker 1: out of a game either. So the book ends kind
Speaker 1: of with what I think a lot of Bengals fans
Speaker 1: are feeling that it is inevitable that someday Cincinnati will
Speaker 1: be hoisting a Lombardi Trophy. Clearly, you believe that from
Speaker 1: the time you've spent learning about Joe and talking to
Speaker 1: the major influences in his life. Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: Joe's going to be satisfied. To me, he has that trophy.
Speaker 1: One of the anecdotes in the book, if you don't
Speaker 1: mind me sharing, this is youth baseball. They were in
Speaker 1: elementary school. They got a second place trophy at in
Speaker 1: a nearby tournament. They felt that they had been completely
Speaker 1: cheated out of the championship. One of the players immediately
Speaker 1: through the trophy in the trash can another one broke
Speaker 1: it over his knee. Joe was just very stoic, you know.
Speaker 1: And Robin ended up calling the coach later on that
Speaker 1: night and says, I don't know if I should be
Speaker 1: proud of Joe or if I should be disturbed. But
Speaker 1: he's been in his room for the last two hours
Speaker 1: dissecting that trophy piece by piece by piece, and then
Speaker 1: he tossed it in the trash. I thought that was
Speaker 1: a great story, and it started very early that second
Speaker 1: place is not good enough for Joe, and he has
Speaker 1: a winner's attitude. He's not going to be satisfied until
Speaker 1: he's at the top of the mountain and the Bengals
Speaker 1: are at the top of the mountain. Scott. This is
Speaker 1: an audio podcast but we are doing it via zoom
Speaker 1: and you are wearing Bengals Super Bowl gear. Were you
Speaker 1: a Bengals fan or have you become one because of
Speaker 1: Joe Burrow? I have been a Bengals fan since nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty eight, So you know, most of us, Dan, I think,
Speaker 1: adopt the teams that our dad or our mother root for,
Speaker 1: and that was certainly case for me. I mean, Athens
Speaker 1: County tends to be split between the Browns and the
Speaker 1: Steelers and the Bengals, but I can say with all
Speaker 1: integrity that I've been there since the beginning, So certainly
Speaker 1: the stars have aligned perfectly for people like me from
Speaker 1: Athens when Joe was drafted by the Bengals. So you
Speaker 1: were kind enough to share an advanced copy of the
Speaker 1: book with me. But it's going to be available soon.
Speaker 1: Do you know when it will be available and where
Speaker 1: people will be able to purchase it? Yeah, people can
Speaker 1: pre order the book right now at Orange Frasier dot com.
Speaker 1: So it's Orange Frasier Press, so Orange fr azear dot com.
Speaker 1: It'll be available likely in mid April, all right, so
Speaker 1: we've got about a month and a half to wait
Speaker 1: and then everybody can join me in reading from Bulldog
Speaker 1: to Bengal, the Joe Burrows story through the eyes of
Speaker 1: his hometown. It's a very enjoyable read. I mentioned a
Speaker 1: few of the anecdotes in it, but there are dozens
Speaker 1: and dozens of them that I will be sharing going
Speaker 1: forward on my broadcasts. Thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: time today and best of luck with a book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks so much, Dan, that's going to do it for
Speaker 1: this episode of The Bengals Booth Podcast, presented by Cattering Health,
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Speaker 1: find us. I'm Dan Horde, and thanks for listening to
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast.